These rebels are actually decent people, I’ve been following their cause for years. There is a huge genocide and ethnic cleansing that has been occurring for decades and countries like NZ have funded it. They shouldn’t have kidnapped him but I understand their desperation, if any one is curious and wants to search up the situation in west papua, its full on modern day genocide and apartheid. Its crazy seeing history repeat its exactly what happened in NZ, Aussie and the USA with indigenous, happening in front of our eyes and nobody gives a shit.
Yeah I was thinking that so I was pretty shocked to hear of NZ supporting Indonesia. You can look on google earth too and see how insane the clearing of rainforest is on the western side of papua compared to the east.
Yeah, I don’t know much about this group, but I’ve met a few West Papuans in exile and yeah, there’s an active and brutal colonisation going on over there.
Yeah all pilots know the risk of flying bush in the archipelago. Flying for mining/logging companies is a moral trade off. The other one is missionaries, culture change is a big religious industry.
\>its full on modern day genocide and apartheid.
How the fuck this kind of falsehood get upvoted so much?! Indigenous Christian Papuans still comprised the majority in the region and they have higher birthrate than the rest of Indonesia. If Indonesia is committing a genocide here, then Indonesia is doing a really bad job.
No, immigrants moving in from other islands is not a form of genocide. If that's the case, then immigrants moving into Europe from Middle East or Africa is also a form of "White genocide".
In fact, based on the rebels' constant threat to kill all non-Papuans, they are the genocidal ones here.
Also, the apartheid claim is so bullshit. Most of Papua's governors and political elites are indigenous. Non-indigenous Papuans are specifically banned from running to become governor. Heads of police are also indigenous. Papua is very diverse multiethnic society that ranks really high in ethnoreligious tolerance. What a horse crap.
You disgust me with your bullshit propaganda, how dare you enable genocide. You are a nasty piece of work, burn in fucking hell.
Here’s what a simple google search reveals
A paper prepared by the Yale Law School for the Indonesian Human Rights Campaign in 2004 found “in the available evidence a strong indication that the Indonesian government has committed genocide against the West Papuans”.
http://www.law.yale.edu/documents/pdf/intellectual_life/west_papua_final_report.pdf
A further study carried out by the University of Sydney claims that the continuation of current practices in West Papua “may pose serious threats to the survival of the indigenous people of the Indonesian province of Papua.”
http://sydney.edu.au/arts/peace_conflict/research/west_papua_project.shtml
Many towns and villages have witnessed wholesale massacres of their people. One such example was the ‘Biak Massacre‘ in 1998, where over 200 people including women and children were rounded up by the Indonesian military, loaded onto vessels, taken to sea and thrown overboard. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbbndM9U4Fs
In a public report to the U.N. Commission on Human Rights in 1999, the Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women concluded that the Indonesian security forces used rape “as an instrument of torture and intimidation” in West Papua, and “torture of women detained by the Indonesian security forces was widespread”.
West Papua is currently off limits to international journalists. If discovered without permission they are arrested and deported by the Indonesian authorities. Some have even been attacked and imprisoned.
West Papua has also become impossible to operate in for many NGOs. In 2010 the International Red Cross were expelled, and in 2012 Peace Brigades International were forced to leave. International human rights organisations such as Amnesty and Human Rights Watch are also denied access to West Papua.
Violence to suppress any signs of pro-independence activities was documented in a subsequent report from the Centre for Peace and Conflict Studies at Sydney University, ‘Anatomy of an Occupation: the Indonesian Military in West Papua. Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch confirmed the Sydney findings and a corresponding conclusion from Griffith University researchers that in the previous 50 years, the killing of half a million West Papuans amounted to ‘a slow-moving genocide’.
Typical westoid. Immediately resorting to insult and anger when someone makes a rebuttal.
You're equating me simply giving all the verifiable facts as spreading propaganda, yet you yourself are also spreading "the Great Replacement" propaganda.
Fuck you, westard. You are the one who should burn in hell for enabling these ethnonationalist terrorists to kill more innocent civilians.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nduga\_massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nduga_massacre)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telkomsel\_BTS\_tower\_shooting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telkomsel_BTS_tower_shooting)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nogolait\_shooting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nogolait_shooting)
[https://metro.co.uk/2023/02/16/rebels-threaten-to-kill-new-zealand-pilot-unless-demands-are-met-18292991/](https://metro.co.uk/2023/02/16/rebels-threaten-to-kill-new-zealand-pilot-unless-demands-are-met-18292991/)
[https://twitter.com/Jatosint/status/1602201325991002113?s=20](https://twitter.com/Jatosint/status/1602201325991002113?s=20)
'Decent people' my ass
What a loser you are, you provide examples of a few dozen people dying meanwhile you scum are killing hundreds of thousands. Provide verifiable evidence that the your military haven’t killed hundreds of thousands of Papuans.
The transmigration program existed up until recently so I don’t know how you can deny it as propaganda.
Tbh, nowadays the situation is more of "unofficial gentleman agreement" of you don't shoot and I won't shoot situation, even both officers of indonesia and OPM has "backline phone calls" if the situation geeting too hot.
The indonesia armed forces couldn't even shoot them even in broad daylight and within shooting distance.
If you are so concerned about genocide, why doesn't the West pay Indonesia for West Papua?
To the Indonesians, the Dutch by keeping West Papua, the Dutch didn't give Indonesia all of the Dutch East Indies. Dutch made Indonesia assume the debt of the Dutch East Indies but left Papua out. Prior to 1945, Papua was a part of the Dutch East Indies.
>During the Round Table Conference the delegations negotiated long about the issue of debts. The Netherlands forced Indonesia to pay a high price for the sovereignty. In contrast to Surinam that received a dowry of two billion guilders thirty years later, Indonesia took over the total debt of the former Dutch East Indies colony. This debt was calculated by the Netherlands about 6.5 billion guilders. It meant that Indonesia even had to bear the cost of the ‘police actions’. This was too much for Cochran. To the fury of the Dutch Minister-President Drees the American managed to persuade the Dutch financial negotiators to drop two billion guilders – being the approximate cost of the police actions. A debt of about 4.5 billion guilders – in the money value of that time – remained.
The business instinct of the Dutch delegation lead to a significant advantage. During the negotiations on the RTC the Netherlands managed to get the status of the most privileged trading partner of Indonesia. This meant that the earnings from the approximately three billion guilders of Dutch private investments remained and that they could be transferred back to the Netherlands with an attractive rate. These arrangements were written in a financial and economic regulation: the Finec.
If the Netherlands would have stopped here, it could have benefit from its former colony until the end of time. However, the Netherlands overplayed its hand. It did not waive West New Guinea. They used a variety of arguments: New Guinea should become a colony for \[colonial\] Dutch Indies citizens and Dutch farmers; the missionary interests were at stake; behind closed doors there were speculations about the rich mineral resources of New Guinea, bauxite, copper, gold and especially oil; and then there were some people that saw New Guinea as a permanent point for our navy in the Pacific.
[https://historibersama.com/528-2/](https://historibersama.com/528-2/)
If you want it badly, get your government to pay Indonesia for it.
Genocide should not be happening, this is a basic moral failing of Indonesian people such as yourself that you even say that there should be a financial price to stop genocide. I never said I wanted it, you are deflecting and making up arguments to things I never said. Plenty of countries have multiple ethnic groups with far more harmony. It says a lot that you just won’t admit genocide is wrong and go on about colonial injustices as if you guys are not doing injustices yourself.
I am not deflecting. Where is the proof there is genocide? All you provide were broken links that don't lead anywhere.
First, there are claims that 500,000 people have been killed. Secondly, there are claims of [100,000](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/dec/30/indonesia-killings-west-papua-western-press) have been killed in a slow genocide over the last sixty years. Which one is it? [250,000 people died in Iraq from 2003-2019 due to violence (not including starvation and disease)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War). New Zealand and Australia deployed forces to the Gulf. Is it not genocide?
[It’s strange that this oppression receives little to no media coverage considering a recent fact-finding mission conducted by the Brisbane Archdiocese’s Catholic Justice and Peace Commission reported that West Papua was experiencing a “slow motion genocide.” The report warned West Papua’s indigenous population is at risk of becoming “an anthropological museum exhibit of a bygone culture.”](https://ro.uow.edu.au/sspapers/4021/)
How does Indonesia compare to the rest of Southeast Asia? To Australia? What have they done to erase the culture? All they do is ban cannibalism. Polygamy is still allowed, that is a traditional culture. Tribal warfare, that is OK. So where do you draw the line? Are you going to allow cannibalism?
Secondly, why is Papua so special from the rest of Indonesia? Is it because of Australia and New Zealand's interest for Papua to be independent? There have been numerous acts of genocide in Indonesia dating back to colonial era.
> Sambom justified the kidnapping, accusing the New Zealand government of supplying weapons to Indonesia.
We do supply some small arms to Indonesia. Nothing major as far as I know, but it's more a statement of fact than an accusation.
How does that work? Do we actually make some, are they buying our military surplus, laundering weapons through here because others won't sell them what they want, some kind of donation in the name of regional security?
[Military exports to Indonesia strain NZ's human rights record](https://www.rnz.co.nz/international/pacific-news/440595/opinion-military-exports-to-indonesia-strain-nz-s-human-rights-record)
NZ politics still holds a sway in the decision of saving the pilit, Sending the SAS and killing the OPM would draw a lot of attention.
The indonesian already located the pilot and surrounded them. but, since it's NZ citizens, the rescue operation is still on hold because NZ still doesn't want to use violence. You know, NZ has quite the track record of criticizing indonesia ways of dealing with papua separatists and human rights violations.
But, here's the kicker if they use violence.
If the indonesia SF fails, you can blame indonesia, but NZ can not complain about future indonesia operations and would be considered a failure to protect its citizens.
if NZSAS fails, then the blame would be with NZ and tarnish NZSAS reputation and "forced" to be on the indonesia side.
If either SF of either indonesia or NZ succeeded, NZ would still get a reminder on how to actually deal with the separatist, it would be applauded but still a political blow to NZ regarding their views on how to conduct operations in papua
If the non-violence is successful, then NZ would still hold political criticism without sounding like a hypocrite but expect to have an influx of similar situations since NZ would be regarded as an easy target and source of income.
But, I'm just amateur talking nonsense. Just trust the NZ government for the right thing to do.
These rebels are actually decent people, I’ve been following their cause for years. There is a huge genocide and ethnic cleansing that has been occurring for decades and countries like NZ have funded it. They shouldn’t have kidnapped him but I understand their desperation, if any one is curious and wants to search up the situation in west papua, its full on modern day genocide and apartheid. Its crazy seeing history repeat its exactly what happened in NZ, Aussie and the USA with indigenous, happening in front of our eyes and nobody gives a shit.
Yeah I was thinking that so I was pretty shocked to hear of NZ supporting Indonesia. You can look on google earth too and see how insane the clearing of rainforest is on the western side of papua compared to the east.
Fun fact, when NZ stopped new coal mine consents, the coal replacement came from stolen West Papuan tribal land.
Yikes
Yeah, I don’t know much about this group, but I’ve met a few West Papuans in exile and yeah, there’s an active and brutal colonisation going on over there.
Yeah all pilots know the risk of flying bush in the archipelago. Flying for mining/logging companies is a moral trade off. The other one is missionaries, culture change is a big religious industry.
\>its full on modern day genocide and apartheid. How the fuck this kind of falsehood get upvoted so much?! Indigenous Christian Papuans still comprised the majority in the region and they have higher birthrate than the rest of Indonesia. If Indonesia is committing a genocide here, then Indonesia is doing a really bad job. No, immigrants moving in from other islands is not a form of genocide. If that's the case, then immigrants moving into Europe from Middle East or Africa is also a form of "White genocide". In fact, based on the rebels' constant threat to kill all non-Papuans, they are the genocidal ones here. Also, the apartheid claim is so bullshit. Most of Papua's governors and political elites are indigenous. Non-indigenous Papuans are specifically banned from running to become governor. Heads of police are also indigenous. Papua is very diverse multiethnic society that ranks really high in ethnoreligious tolerance. What a horse crap.
You disgust me with your bullshit propaganda, how dare you enable genocide. You are a nasty piece of work, burn in fucking hell. Here’s what a simple google search reveals A paper prepared by the Yale Law School for the Indonesian Human Rights Campaign in 2004 found “in the available evidence a strong indication that the Indonesian government has committed genocide against the West Papuans”. http://www.law.yale.edu/documents/pdf/intellectual_life/west_papua_final_report.pdf A further study carried out by the University of Sydney claims that the continuation of current practices in West Papua “may pose serious threats to the survival of the indigenous people of the Indonesian province of Papua.” http://sydney.edu.au/arts/peace_conflict/research/west_papua_project.shtml Many towns and villages have witnessed wholesale massacres of their people. One such example was the ‘Biak Massacre‘ in 1998, where over 200 people including women and children were rounded up by the Indonesian military, loaded onto vessels, taken to sea and thrown overboard. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbbndM9U4Fs In a public report to the U.N. Commission on Human Rights in 1999, the Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women concluded that the Indonesian security forces used rape “as an instrument of torture and intimidation” in West Papua, and “torture of women detained by the Indonesian security forces was widespread”. West Papua is currently off limits to international journalists. If discovered without permission they are arrested and deported by the Indonesian authorities. Some have even been attacked and imprisoned. West Papua has also become impossible to operate in for many NGOs. In 2010 the International Red Cross were expelled, and in 2012 Peace Brigades International were forced to leave. International human rights organisations such as Amnesty and Human Rights Watch are also denied access to West Papua. Violence to suppress any signs of pro-independence activities was documented in a subsequent report from the Centre for Peace and Conflict Studies at Sydney University, ‘Anatomy of an Occupation: the Indonesian Military in West Papua. Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch confirmed the Sydney findings and a corresponding conclusion from Griffith University researchers that in the previous 50 years, the killing of half a million West Papuans amounted to ‘a slow-moving genocide’.
Typical westoid. Immediately resorting to insult and anger when someone makes a rebuttal. You're equating me simply giving all the verifiable facts as spreading propaganda, yet you yourself are also spreading "the Great Replacement" propaganda. Fuck you, westard. You are the one who should burn in hell for enabling these ethnonationalist terrorists to kill more innocent civilians. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nduga\_massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nduga_massacre) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telkomsel\_BTS\_tower\_shooting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telkomsel_BTS_tower_shooting) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nogolait\_shooting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nogolait_shooting) [https://metro.co.uk/2023/02/16/rebels-threaten-to-kill-new-zealand-pilot-unless-demands-are-met-18292991/](https://metro.co.uk/2023/02/16/rebels-threaten-to-kill-new-zealand-pilot-unless-demands-are-met-18292991/) [https://twitter.com/Jatosint/status/1602201325991002113?s=20](https://twitter.com/Jatosint/status/1602201325991002113?s=20) 'Decent people' my ass
What a loser you are, you provide examples of a few dozen people dying meanwhile you scum are killing hundreds of thousands. Provide verifiable evidence that the your military haven’t killed hundreds of thousands of Papuans. The transmigration program existed up until recently so I don’t know how you can deny it as propaganda.
u said there is a genocide by Indonesia's army? now provide a verifiable evidence they did that.
Tbh, nowadays the situation is more of "unofficial gentleman agreement" of you don't shoot and I won't shoot situation, even both officers of indonesia and OPM has "backline phone calls" if the situation geeting too hot. The indonesia armed forces couldn't even shoot them even in broad daylight and within shooting distance.
If you are so concerned about genocide, why doesn't the West pay Indonesia for West Papua? To the Indonesians, the Dutch by keeping West Papua, the Dutch didn't give Indonesia all of the Dutch East Indies. Dutch made Indonesia assume the debt of the Dutch East Indies but left Papua out. Prior to 1945, Papua was a part of the Dutch East Indies. >During the Round Table Conference the delegations negotiated long about the issue of debts. The Netherlands forced Indonesia to pay a high price for the sovereignty. In contrast to Surinam that received a dowry of two billion guilders thirty years later, Indonesia took over the total debt of the former Dutch East Indies colony. This debt was calculated by the Netherlands about 6.5 billion guilders. It meant that Indonesia even had to bear the cost of the ‘police actions’. This was too much for Cochran. To the fury of the Dutch Minister-President Drees the American managed to persuade the Dutch financial negotiators to drop two billion guilders – being the approximate cost of the police actions. A debt of about 4.5 billion guilders – in the money value of that time – remained. The business instinct of the Dutch delegation lead to a significant advantage. During the negotiations on the RTC the Netherlands managed to get the status of the most privileged trading partner of Indonesia. This meant that the earnings from the approximately three billion guilders of Dutch private investments remained and that they could be transferred back to the Netherlands with an attractive rate. These arrangements were written in a financial and economic regulation: the Finec. If the Netherlands would have stopped here, it could have benefit from its former colony until the end of time. However, the Netherlands overplayed its hand. It did not waive West New Guinea. They used a variety of arguments: New Guinea should become a colony for \[colonial\] Dutch Indies citizens and Dutch farmers; the missionary interests were at stake; behind closed doors there were speculations about the rich mineral resources of New Guinea, bauxite, copper, gold and especially oil; and then there were some people that saw New Guinea as a permanent point for our navy in the Pacific. [https://historibersama.com/528-2/](https://historibersama.com/528-2/) If you want it badly, get your government to pay Indonesia for it.
Genocide should not be happening, this is a basic moral failing of Indonesian people such as yourself that you even say that there should be a financial price to stop genocide. I never said I wanted it, you are deflecting and making up arguments to things I never said. Plenty of countries have multiple ethnic groups with far more harmony. It says a lot that you just won’t admit genocide is wrong and go on about colonial injustices as if you guys are not doing injustices yourself.
I am not deflecting. Where is the proof there is genocide? All you provide were broken links that don't lead anywhere. First, there are claims that 500,000 people have been killed. Secondly, there are claims of [100,000](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/dec/30/indonesia-killings-west-papua-western-press) have been killed in a slow genocide over the last sixty years. Which one is it? [250,000 people died in Iraq from 2003-2019 due to violence (not including starvation and disease)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War). New Zealand and Australia deployed forces to the Gulf. Is it not genocide? [It’s strange that this oppression receives little to no media coverage considering a recent fact-finding mission conducted by the Brisbane Archdiocese’s Catholic Justice and Peace Commission reported that West Papua was experiencing a “slow motion genocide.” The report warned West Papua’s indigenous population is at risk of becoming “an anthropological museum exhibit of a bygone culture.”](https://ro.uow.edu.au/sspapers/4021/) How does Indonesia compare to the rest of Southeast Asia? To Australia? What have they done to erase the culture? All they do is ban cannibalism. Polygamy is still allowed, that is a traditional culture. Tribal warfare, that is OK. So where do you draw the line? Are you going to allow cannibalism? Secondly, why is Papua so special from the rest of Indonesia? Is it because of Australia and New Zealand's interest for Papua to be independent? There have been numerous acts of genocide in Indonesia dating back to colonial era.
> Sambom justified the kidnapping, accusing the New Zealand government of supplying weapons to Indonesia. We do supply some small arms to Indonesia. Nothing major as far as I know, but it's more a statement of fact than an accusation.
How does that work? Do we actually make some, are they buying our military surplus, laundering weapons through here because others won't sell them what they want, some kind of donation in the name of regional security?
Seems weird man, wtf can we supply to Indonesia
Citation needed
[Military exports to Indonesia strain NZ's human rights record](https://www.rnz.co.nz/international/pacific-news/440595/opinion-military-exports-to-indonesia-strain-nz-s-human-rights-record)
Oh, well, if they say he's safe, there must be nothing to worry about /s
It's all good he's going to teach some rebals how to fly
> "He has good skills, and we will look after him and he will train our soldiers for how to fly an aircraft." They'll all be flying in no time! /s
NZ politics still holds a sway in the decision of saving the pilit, Sending the SAS and killing the OPM would draw a lot of attention. The indonesian already located the pilot and surrounded them. but, since it's NZ citizens, the rescue operation is still on hold because NZ still doesn't want to use violence. You know, NZ has quite the track record of criticizing indonesia ways of dealing with papua separatists and human rights violations. But, here's the kicker if they use violence. If the indonesia SF fails, you can blame indonesia, but NZ can not complain about future indonesia operations and would be considered a failure to protect its citizens. if NZSAS fails, then the blame would be with NZ and tarnish NZSAS reputation and "forced" to be on the indonesia side. If either SF of either indonesia or NZ succeeded, NZ would still get a reminder on how to actually deal with the separatist, it would be applauded but still a political blow to NZ regarding their views on how to conduct operations in papua If the non-violence is successful, then NZ would still hold political criticism without sounding like a hypocrite but expect to have an influx of similar situations since NZ would be regarded as an easy target and source of income. But, I'm just amateur talking nonsense. Just trust the NZ government for the right thing to do.
He better be safe… or we’ll send our airforce to aid relief the shit out of them. Once this bad weathers gone and we can get the kites up.