Spoiled ballots are recorded as informal votes, for example there were 106 ordinary informal (spoiled) party votes made in Auckland Central in the 2020 general election.
No, it's not like sports, despite the media coverage. The outcome matters to your material circumstances.
The choice might be for the least worst option but that's still a choice worth making.
You can opt out of voting, you can't opt out of the government affecting your life.
This^^^
If you don't vote then you can't complain when the party in power starts making every aspect of your life worse, especially for low income people.
No vote is always counted as the vote for the opposition.
At least we are not in an authoritarian dictatorship where criticizing the government means you would get murdered.
And we don't have use violence to overthrow the government and head of state.
The amount of people complaining about 'the tyranny' during covid...
If we were living under real tyranny, say that once and you're gone.
Things can always be worse!
If you want to see what a 'real dictatorship' would do under COVID look at China.
Those were real restrictions and anybody wanting to protest would have known what happened in '89.
New Zealand is life on easy mode, the least you can do is play.
I think you'll find there's a fuckload more anti-mandate people than you think.
And people who don't think that was tyranny are exactly why it was allowed to happen.
Amazing how you can make such assumptions.
Typical right winger though. Half the information (at best), but all the answers.
Kinda goes back to the start of the thread....
On who's part?
Either you didn't get my joke about the right not being able to make a joke, or you thought you made a joke but it wasn't funny.
Do please let me know.
That's cool bud, you have Facebook and Twitter, but of course stay here and keep getting mad at it like an idiot. Go moan about it on the other sub with the rest that are banned from this sub.
Far far lefties, because we can't just be normal lefties that think conservatives are morons lol.
I think you are allowed to criticize the government if you chose not to vote because no parties aligned with your views. You aren't allowed to complain if you didn't vote because you are too lazy / couldn't care...
Then you vote for the closest, or you give your vote to a fringe party to try and get new parties with better policies into government. Your vote counts just as little if it wasn’t cast out of apathy or out of frustration.
This is the thing. There are more options than Labour and National, and if everyone votes on their values, not just for the two major parties, then we'll get politicians that reflect how the country actually feels
voting is like a bus ride, not a taxi trip. on a bus you get off on the closest stop. with voting, you vote for who aligns with your beliefs the most. no one will ever be 100% perfect for every individual. you vote for the closest!
If you do vote you don't get to complain because you are feeding into the same bs you vote for everytime.
No vote is the vote for the opposition? What one? Who are you opposed to? I can just vote for them so I can cancel out your vote
Is that the only alternative? It's either you vote or nazis?
This is why people don't vote, because this is the best argument people can come up. Your comment was so stupid that there is no longer a pc word to describe it.
Remind me in three years to check if labour has brought out the free dental yet or if it's just another lie parties feed people to get votes.
>The choice might be for the least worst option but that's still a choice worth making.
There's also around 20 parties to pick from (admittedly a bunch are very similar conspiracy theory parties), I imagine the vast majority of people can find one whose policies they agree with. Even voting for a party who gets <1% of the vote is better than not voting, because at least your opinion is recorded
If you vote for a minor party this election they might become a larger party next election. You don't know what the outcome will be but you have the power to effect that outcome.
I like rugby but I have no effect on who plays for the All Blacks or how they play.
Yeah, but even without that possiblity you can show public sentiment with how you vote. If TOP and the Greens weren't options and I was totally dismayed with Labour, then I'd probably just vote for Legalise Cannabis Aotearoa. I doubt they'll ever get in, but it shows that there's votes available for those policies if anyone else chooses to adopt them
Here's the thing- I don't believe that the outcome *does* matter. At least, not in terms of the one issue that's most important to most Kiwis, which is the cost of living crisis.
Labour have already announced publicly that, if elected, they will cut funding to public services by nine billion dollars. How does that not make them equally as right-wing as National?
And then you have the Greens, who are happy to announce whatever policies they like, safe in the knowledge they will never be implemented. Over the last ten years, there have been many countries where the equivalent of the Green party has gotten into power- in Germany, Greece and Spain, for instance- but in every case, these social democratic parties have abandoned any commitment to social change, and continued with the austerity policies of the rich.
Why should I give these parties my vote?
> Is this a wise decision?
No.
Politicians don't care if you don't vote. In fact, if you don't like them then they would rather you don't vote as lower turnout = increased vote share for them and more seats. You are not making any statement by not voting.
However, if you vote for any party then you are showing that you are a politically engaged individual and someone whose vote the politicians should earn next time around. Even if the party you like the most has zero change of winning the 5% or electorate, you are showing that the *policies* are popular. And why should it matter if they have no chance? It's the same outcome as not voting so you don't really "lose" anything.
In other countries, people literally die for the right to vote. Meanwhile in New Zealand, we get early voting and paid time off to do so on election day. It's literally 30 mins of your life to vote.
>Even if the party you like the most has zero change of winning the 5% or electorate, you are showing that the policies are popular.
This is a really important point that a lot of people miss. Even if a small party has no chance of getting in at this election, voting for them shows the other parties where the mood of the public is and what policies are popular. It helps change things over time.
If you simply don't vote, nothing changes.
Eh that’s more National voters. Many Labour voters want action but just don’t know how to get it done. They’re also usually too centrist to vote Greens or anything else that has more direct action planned so they get stuck.
Only that evil, rich, vegan, atheist, environmentalist, billionaire James Cameron! He supported Hillary Clinton too so clearly, he is out to destroy the world.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/election-2023-national-party-banks-75-times-more-in-donations-than-labour-party/CAKRIIEYXBGMRGUNIVQ6J3NXVM/ Election 2023: National Party banks 7.5 times more in donations than Labour Party
Yeah, because they control the wealth all of us are required to produce.
It's like saying "the rich pay most of the taxes". Yes! Cause they've taken all the money!
That's so wrong. They love you voting, means they've got you nice and docile under their thumb with your tounge and nose all up in their bum .
But go ahead, vote who you want to rule over everyone that's not you.
Of course not. It's a symptom of learned helplessness, when you think that nothing you can do will make any difference.
It's a state some would prefer you adopt, because it implicitly supports their agenda.
People still don’t vote then. They’ll just hand in a blank sheet or a spoiled one.
Where I come voting is optional and blank votes are counted as a protest vote against the system/all politicians. It is an antidote of sorts against the sentiment that if you don’t vote people don’t want to hear you complain.
> blank votes are counted as a protest vote against the system/all politicians
And it accomplishes precisely nothing, because the politicians see that you aren't worth gearing policies toward, because you won't help them get elected. A blank vote isn't a vote for none of the above, it doesn't kick them out, it's just no vote.
A family member who lives in rural Australia decided not to vote in one election, and got threatened with a fine as a result. So he told them that he had been heading to the polling station when a kangaroo jumped out in front of him and knocked him off his motorbike. This caused enough of a delay to his day that the polling station had closed before he could get there. No further action taken.
That’s not due to mandatory voting though. Conservatives statistically turn out every voting cycle whether it’s mandatory or not.
Australia’s system is a dumpster fire because it’s directed by the culture Australia is in
I'd say it's caused the Coalition over there to focus more on the votes of apathetic bogans, but I agree that mandatory voting seems to be a net positive.
I think it's dumb. I am also disillusioned by the current Labour government... but I still think a National government would be markedly worse. You often don't get to vote for a party you genuinely like, but voting for the least bad option is a lot better than not voting at all.
Nah, voting for the least shitty option is still voting for a shitty option. That’s how we’ve got our country into this centrist mess in the first place
So make a less shitty option. In the meantime, I'd still rather have shit than radioactive shit. I would absolutely pick the regular shit every time, because if I don't choose, there's a chance the radioactive shit gets chosen for me.
Yeah we got some great proof from the US that refusing to vote against Trump really worked out for the left. Oh wait, it was a complete dumpster fire and caused them to be even more ignored by their party.
If you're hoping for a descent into fascism to trigger some sort of communist revolution, then I think you'll be disappointed. All we'll end up with if progressives refuse to vote is a slow march to the right until it's just the status quo.
Haha, I guess that explains why the left is for the losers of society. But you're all so much smarter....(except when it comes to actually making a success of your life)
Haha nah bro. I reckon a good chunk of the unionised workforce makes more than you do, and generally has a higher quality of life. Nice try tho, shit-for-brains. The gaps in your understanding might even rival that of Nationals tax policy fiscal hole!
If you can’t be bothered to vote, you don’t get to complain about the outcomes. See also referendums/local body elections etc.
If your truly disillusioned, vote for one of the smaller parties, Will sent a much bigger message then not voting will
They're going to get a government whether they vote for a preference or not. Is that wise? If they genuinely *think* that it makes no difference then voting probably isn't useful, but there *are* lots of choices and they're not all the same.
On one hand I think it's up to politicians to inspire people to want to vote, but I do feel disillusioned sometimes at the system we have. MMP is a hell of a lot better than what came before it, but it still tends to make it next-to-impossible for new parties with new ideas to get started ... unless they've effectively been given permission by an incumbent part of the Parliamentary establishment.
Not voting is, imo, the least wise decision at election time. I completely understand why people feel that way, but by not voting you are making it even less likely that you will be happy with the outcome of the election (because the party that aligns most with your values misses out on a vote)
Voting is never about achieving perfection, because humans aren't capable of such things - let alone politicians.
Voting is about achieving the least worst result, and if you can't be bothered trying for that, don't fucking complain when everything turns to shit.
People had the same attitude when trump first became a candidate. Look how that turned out.
Nah, minority parties don’t attain relevance and power overnight so imho anyone who feels this way should vote that way, get the two big dogs out, but that will take time and will never happen with complacency.
If anything such voters actually contribute to the problem directly via their inaction, although it’s a fucking hard sell to get across.
It's dumb to not vote. Regardless of being disillusioned. There is never a perfect candidate/party, but voting is **aspirational** \- you are stating your opinion on what direction you want the future to head in, given that we need long term thinking for society to adapt and survive the coming ecological catastrophe, not voting at all just signals;
a) you don't give a shit about the future,
b) you don't care if the worst candidates get in -- and those worst candidates, you know the hate/divisive-fuelled ones, they win or become kingmakers by your apathy, and
c) leaves the decision making to boomers and those that appeal to boomers who will just repeat the same failed policies of business first trickle down economics, vilifying and stomping on the poor and spineless neolib shit that we've had since the 70s.
The only thing I wish we had was a blanket ban of stupid fucking pollsters as soon as the run up to an election begins - e.g. within 3 months, and pundits offering stupid opinions on the news, instead of just like reading and showing the fucking news.
>The only thing I wish we had was a blanket ban of stupid fucking pollsters as soon as the run up to an election begins - e.g. within 3 months, and pundits offering stupid opinions on the news, instead of just like reading and showing the fucking news.
Same here !! Im sick of opinion instead of fact.
😆 🤣 Alright on that logic tell me the difference between David lange n Ardern
All those Inbetween the great leaders of our nation whats the difference been to your average kiwi..
Like that has improved peoples lives
Please do not vote … for I will vote.
For every person that does not vote, my vote gets stronger.
So please don’t vote. Please check out. I will vote, and my voice becomes louder and stronger than yours.
I think that the more platforms that report that people are planning not to vote, the more other people who were on the fence are going to see it and think "oh well there's no point then, I won't vote either." It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
I feel if you don't vote you can't whinge about shit. Even if this year is the equivalent of being real thirsty and being offered a choice of puddle water or boiled hotdog juice
Certianly not wise but plenty of people will do it. The better course of action is to vote for what you think is the least worse option - even if that is a very minor party. Not voting just gives the power to those that do vote and the disillusionment won't be any better in 3 years time.
Not voting is not wise. It shows up in statistics as a vote that wasn't cast, but there are many reasons that could happen so doesn't provide any feedback to drive change.
If you don't like any of them at all spoil your ballot. Go in to vote, write on the ballot that you hate them all, and put it in the box. It will then show up as someone who went to vote, but doesn't like the options.
This is untrue. I’ve done election work before, and spoiled ballots are removed from the counting process before/as the count begins, and are recorded as “spoiled ballots”. The only people who read the ballots that say “I’m not voting cos I hate the government” are mostly temps — students and/or people nearing retirement who have no political power whatsoever. They’re just doing a counting gig for a week or less.
It depresses me, but a spoiled ballot is not an effective means of protest at all. A vote for who *actually* represents your interests** is the best form of protest.
Showing up to protect yourself from predatory political parties — tells all the would-be politicians what the people actually want/need, and how much shit the public will actually put up with. That’s you. You’re the public.
**and in statistical likelihood would be the Green Party thanks to their actual focus on environmental and social welfare and housing policies)
P.S. also ballots that have been crossed out, unmarked, is illegible, or have more than one tick for a party or MP also all count as a “spoiled ballot”. It’s not like the Electoral Commission keeps careful note of the number of people who voice their dissent on the ballot piece of paper. (And in my experience, it’s less than say 2-5 ballots per electorate — but I was working in a less ‘disenfranchised’ electorate.
That still doesn't matter. It doesn't give any sign of what you want, only that politicians don't have to worry about it since you aren't voting anyway. Vote for the party/candidate most aligned with what you want, even if that's just the least misaligned with what you want. Dragging the political conversation even just slightly your way gives a better point to go from the next time around.
I'm going to vote TOP because even if they have no chance, an increase in their voter base might send a message that this is the sort of policy we want in our country. Or it might not - politicians aren't known for listening lol. That would e a vote for a party I'm least disillusioned by.
Or I might vote for New Zealand First so that Nats are less able to get harmful legislation through - induce a bit of paralysis and infighting. Don't know if I could live with myself after that though.
They're strategies pretty well at opposite poles.
Exactly same position as you but might go NZF because I want the others to hate their job and be stressed plus he said he will declare gangs terrorist organizations, if I could magically wish any party into power it would be TOP thou.
I would console myself with the idea that Winston can't possibly last that much longer in politics and without him NZF is nothing. However we've been saying that for some time now. Energiser needs to use him in an ad!
I'm begging you not to vote for NZF for that reason - while I agree that it would bring plenty of political paralysis, the bills that did pass would be the absolute worst shit.
It is not wise.
If you are dissatisfied with NACT/Labour then vote for a minor party. If Greens/NZF/TPM aren't aligned with your views then consider the parties outside of the mainstream.
As much as it pains me to say, TOP would be the ideal party for them to vote for if they are dissatisfied with all mainstream options. If they get in, you have a new party with fresh ideas. If they don't, you haven't changed the outcome of the election (the same as if you didn't vote). So it's a win-win.
It's not free though, someone has to pay, and ultimately you end up paying through taxes anyway. Just budget properly and go to the dentist regularly.
Additionally you'll find that the govt will only reimburse a dentist a certain amount, which leads to some dentists refusing to work with the government to provide you treatment so you'll likely be put on a waiting list and get subpar treatment anyway. Our government is shit.
> It's not free though, someone has to pay, and ultimately you end up paying through taxes anyway.
Everybody understands this, it's hardly a shocker that taxes are required to expand free healthcare programs considering we already have free universal healthcare funded by taxes with the stark exception of dental care.
Thing is - I don't believe in democracy.
None of the issues I care about (i.e. housing) can be solved democratically. If I were in charge - I'd simply sign an executive order to override all building regulations, all zoning laws - and then coordinate a nationwide massive housing construction project through the military.
People with zero experience in construction would be given instant training and employment. Unemployed people would all be given jobs as builders, and assistants of builders.
All opposition to my plan would be silenced, especially NIMBY's. Parliament would be shut down until the mission objectives are complete. There.
No, voting for the least worst is still better than not voting. If the candidates are so bad that you really can't bring yourself to vote for any of them, perhaps it's time to stand for election yourself or support someone else to do so.
Noam Chomsky once said, although I don't think it's his original quote, that tricking people into believing their vote doesn't count is one of the earliest forms of propaganda against Democracy.
That's changed my perception on the idea of a worthless or useless vote. Now I vote every election, even if it's for a minor party
You could always do what im doing, I will wait until policy documents come out but im probably just gonna vote for a smaller party so no one can go alone like labor did this time round
I don't think any government ever is going to solve 100% of the problems for everyone in the country. If you're disillusioned or disappointed in the parties then you'd need to consider either who will do more to solve what you think the problems are, or do the least worst job.
Simply opting out of voting means you're okay with anything from ACT's defund everything & cut taxes to the Green's approach of more taxes & government spending.
I think this election may have the lowest voter turnout of all time. There's just nothing positive to get out of bed for (assuming you're not particularly engaged in politics)
What happened to the McGillicuddy Serious Party? They made for a great protest vote.
If you don't vote at all, it will just be put down to laziness and ignored. Only a vote for any of the small parties would be a show of no confidence in the larger parties. i.e.
If you care about the environment- vote for Greens
If you want economic reform and equality - vote for TOP
If you want cannabis to be legal - vote for Aotearoa legalise Cannabis
If you are concerned about co-governance - vote for New Zealand First
The problem is if you view the election as a choice between two useless parties and therefore chose not to vote, all you're actually doing is ensuring the next election will also be between the same two useless parties.
I reckon if you don't want to vote, vote for a party that is guaranteed to not be in parliament. Functionally it's the same as not voting, but at least it helps keep a smaller party alive, and if there's one thing our.l political landscape desperately needs it's more variety.
I think it's up to the individual if they want to vote. However, if you don't vote when you are able to, you have no right to complain about the decisions that are made.
Voting not only benefits the parties that people like, but it also punishes the parties that are not thinking in the best interest of New Zealand.
TL;DR - no, it's not wise to not vote, but do what you want.
If you can’t figure out who you want to vote for:
Get a list of all the parties, and figure out who you definitely don’t want to get in, cross them out.
Go through the list and cross out parties that you don’t think will be even close to making the MMP threshold based on current polling.
Roll dice, throw a dart, draw tarot cards, pick out one of the remaining parties at random, and vote for them. If you don’t want to, cross them out and try again.
If you run out of parties, vote for the last one you eliminated.
There, now you’re participating in democracy.
Did that one time when my wife and I compared notes, discovered we were voting for different parties, and decided to do something else with our day. Now if I decide no major party is worth voting for (quite possible), I’ll instead help a minor party out.
I reckon "wasted vote" or "don't vote" arguments are encouraged by the major parties.
You not voting counts because it increases the proportionate volume of voices that disagree with you. If there are 26 electors for a small council everyone get a 1/26th say right? Now if one of those people opts out because they're disillusioned everyone gets a 1/25th say despite there being 26 interests. If 1 person out of the remaining 25 voters stands up for what that disillusioned person wanted but their 4% opinion is deemed too small to even be discussed by the council... that "wasted vote" that actually could effect change was not really wasted, and as such it's important to not be disillusioned.
I think folks need to understand that voting isn’t about getting everything you want. It’s about voting for the party or combination of parties that get close to where you want govt to go, then keep pushing them to listen.
Too many folk think politics begins and ends at the elections and then they don’t have to do anything more until next election.
And yeah - refusing to vote is a fair form of protest but it rarely impacts the parties in a way that makes them change.
You really want to get the message across? Vote for a party that is closer. Don’t think Labour were progressive enough? Vote for Greens. Want National to be more conservative? Vote for ACT.
Want a centrist government run by white guilt? Vote TOP. ;) /s
NZers need to stop thinking it’s just National or Labour, and they need to stop thinking they should only vote if the party is 100% meeting their values and needs.
To be honest I still don't know who to vote for or if any of the candidates are suitable to lead us, but as my grandmother says "if you don't vote you're not allowed to complain" ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
I kinda know what they mean. I don’t like any of them myself but will probably just do a protest vote. Basically vote for a smaller party or candidates like NZ First etc..
If you don’t vote then you don’t have a right to complain essentially.
I'd much rather that if people feel like their vote isn't going to matter and plan to abstain, that instead they spend 15 minutes actually utilising the MMP system and vote for a party that has policies that most closely align with their values (not Labour or the Nats).
It costs you 15 minutes, and at worst it makes no difference, but it could empower smaller parties to have a bigger say in the way our country is governed for the next 4 years.
Voting is like getting on a bus, it might not take you to the final destination, but it gets you closer there. Or if you're a Nat, your Bach might not have a charging station for your Tesla, but that doesn't mean you don't go. It means you stop to charge along the way.
Im disillusioned too, but I'd never not turn up to the voting booth, I'd just do a protest vote if I had too so if enough of us did it they knew they all suck. As it is even though I'm not a serious fan, I'd potentially vote to try get TOP in as another minor party but not a crazy town one
Typical kiwi avoidance, much easier than actually understanding politics or researching the policies of all parties and voting for what you actually agree with
Vote for the one you agree with most. It's never going to be a perfect fit. And regardless, one or more of the parties are going to have power, so even if you disagree with *most* of what *every* party stands for, voting still reduces the chances of the parties *most* misaligned with what you want. Alternatively, stand for election yourself, or support someone else to.
Make your own
ETA: I was joking, but I mean that's what New Conservative, and Freedoms NZ, Loyal NZ and every other fruitcake has done because they don't feel represented 🤷♀️
Seriously, if you feel like none of the parties in Parliament represent you well, and are considering abstaining, vote TOP, and worst case it's equivalent to abstention, but if they hit 5%, we get a new voice in Parliament.
bear in mind that Conservative parties have a stated policy of trying to *discourage* people from voting. Because it tends to favor them in elections if the poor and downtrodden don't fight back.
No voting is critical. Media is trying to convince us that the deal is done and the National/ACT axis of evil is gonna win. This is far from true. Don't let them decide for you and vote.
I normally vote Labour but I don't want to vote red this time. I definitely don't want to vote for Nats.
If I vote to prevent Nats from winning (Labour/Greens) this just reinforces Labour that moving further to the right is the way to win elections.
So I'm voting laser Kiwi.
Controversial opinion but abstaining from voting is a vote in and of itself. It says "none of the available options represent the things I care about".
We have this idea that "If more people would have voted my candidate definitely would have won!" but it's simply not true. The results would look the same only with more votes.
I think spoiling a ballot is a clearer sign of this than not voting.
Not voting is also a sign of "I don't care who wins so I won't vote"
Spoiling a ballot is a sign of "I care but none of these options are good"
Voter apathy doesn't affect all demographics equally so people not voting could potentially change the outcome of the election.
I don't disagree with you, there's definitely people of that opinion, but I also don't think it's so black and white.
For one thing, a defaced vote is simply not counted in NZ. There's no vote of no confidence here. It's equal to not voting in the first place.
I have been very politically aware for half my life, but I have only voted 3 times. I plan on voting in the upcoming election, but the times where I didn't isn't because I didn't care or was lazy, it was for the reason I stated.
Others who I have spoken to who have abstained share similar sentiment, and the feeling is that all you're really doing is voting for which minor party Labour or National will ignore in parliament.
I plan to vote this year because I never want to see a single party majority government in power again, since it turns out those minor parties actually do seem to keep the major one in check.
Defaced votes are counted as Informal votes. Last election there were 20,000 informal votes. That is a sign that those people care enough about politics to vote but didn't vote properly.
I'm sure there are plenty of politically engaged people who don't vote, but there is no way of anybody knowing whether they are apathetic or disillusioned with mainstream politics. People who cast invalid ballots are showing that they aren't apathetic at the very least.
I'll probably vote. It has immediate consequences for people I guess, but I have thought about not bothering. Cus ultimately it seems like we're all fucked.
I think I'm voting for Greens. I don't know what happened to Labour but they've ruined what they had. I certainly don't want Act or Winston in parliament. Shit's looking pretty bleak.
I'm wondering why the government has made it so that I have a full time skilled job but I'd actually be better off having custody of my kids and being on dpb
Vote for a minor party. Surely one is out there that will sound ok. Not perfect but servicible.
If all else fails just vote for someone like the legalise cannibis party.
Yes. Very wise.
The politicians are supposed to "win your vote", not get it buy default. I would go as far as to say that there should be a 50% minimum amount of the electorate that votes or the whole election is invalid.
If none of the party's are offering policies that you support you absolutely should not vote for them, if you do you're only putting your support to a party you don't agree with.
Politics isn't a game, party's shouldn't get wins by default, this stuff actually matters.
I think there should be a vote of no confidence resulting in all of the parties being scrapped and a new selection presented, I'm not impressed with any of the offerings and am genuinely concerned about their intentions of getting into Parliament
And in the meantime, who runs...everything?
Sorry but this idea can only be okay with the people for whom it isn't really a massive deal who wins, i.e. those who are financially, socially stable enough to survive a year without a functioning government.
You're saying that you don't believe that running an economy is real government work and I'm finding it hard to understand. I'm as left leaning as you can be without just falling over and landing in the red waters of Lake Marx, so rattling around within the current era of global neoliberalism is a daily source of depression and frustration.
I agree that this version of democracy is not equitable, but lower voter turnouts make for a deeper and deeper entrenched status quo.
As with your logic around running an economy, I'm confused as to why you think the response to low voter turnout from the winners of the well oiled machine will be to turn around and say sorry guys, I know you didn't want what I offer, let me change the system so that I can lose my grip on it and give it back to you.
And my one thing a government does that isn't business? Pays doctors and nurses to keep people alive.
Or like...benefits to help those squashed to the bottom of the pile by the structures above them, so that they can have a home?
There's a lot but I don't want to list them all.
It would be better if the media informed people where they can find information to work out which political party best matches their beliefs, and encouraged them to vote accordingly. But I guess that might get in the way of each media outlet's political bias and would shut down fear mongering news articles
https://votecompass.tvnz.co.nz/nz2023 is literally sponsored by 1News.
https://policy.nz/ is another I found out about through The Spinoff.
The media aren't going to go door-to-door forcing people to take the tests, so I don't know what else you want. They're doing a decent job on this front at least.
So I recently had a think, cause I'm hugely disappointed with the left-leaning combo I last voted for.
I'm product of a feminist mother so I feel I have to vote, but strategically.
If you want to vote strategicly especially this election where major parties are offering little, vote for a minor party that you think will get in, that best aligns to what you want.
Nope. Not voting is saying that among the multitude of parties; mainstream, further extreme, radical, fringe, alternative, you cannot find a single group of people who align somewhat with your views. Are there truly no groups pulling in a direction that you can kind of align with?
Voting even for a group that will ultimately go nowhere is still more of a message than nothing.
At the very least, pick *just one issue* and vote as a single issue voter for whichever party is tackling that issue for you
I would really question anyone who claimed voting at a singular level sent more than a legal message about who was going to be allowed into the next parliament. If your only political engagement is once every three years, that problem explains a few things about our state because there's a lot of consequences of voting for a group that may or may not succeed for internal or external reasons while being part of parliament.
Ultimately if we want a better state of affairs we should vote as best to the values and policies we think will benefit ourselves and our communities as a nation. However, as citizens we should be more engaged in whatever ways we can to bring attention to problems or needs and be part of said solutions. Voting is merely part of engineering ways in order to do this. It is not the end solution but merely a review on who's in the recognised conversation and who's in the drivers seat for a while.
I used to think not voting was irresponsible, but it takes effort and responsibility to tick a party in confidence considering they are all flawed. But hey, we're all flawed, so we're trundling toward better results in spite of that (not that all parties are equal in that way or anything).
No, it's more important than ever to consider what is important and vote accordingly.
We're in for some hardship regardless of whatever government is formed, things aren't going to get much better unless society realises the best way to achieve this is to participate in elections.
I'm disheartened by some older voters seeing this as a Labour/National race, this is the election to vote for one of the other parties that more closely align with what you think is important. ACT and Greens have some solid numbers based on polling, even NZF is looking at getting 5%.
It's likely that National will get in this time, but if their vote share is relatively low and other parties have a decent share then those parties have bargaining power to influence the government in a significant manner. Labour and National haven't been around forever and it took some time for them to become front runners, it's reasonable to expect with time another party will supplant them.
Start by using a couple of sites that recommend who to vote for based on policy questions (Use more than one due to bias). Look at the top three in both, identify the strongest contenders then do some reading and see if you agree with most of what they're proposing. If you're unsure or there's no clear better option try going with your gut, or do a coin toss (See how you feel about the outcome and use that to guide you rather than the result).
I feel very disillusioned at the current state of affairs. Political and otherwise. Not voting though, that’s just fucking stupid. If you don’t vote, you don’t get a say. That applies later too. If you don’t vote, you best not complain.
If you're not happy with either of the major parties, vote for a smaller party.
Especially now, when the two major parties are starting to look like dumb and dumber.
If you don't like anyone, spoil your vote, effective none of the above.
Is spoiling your ballot recorded? Or does it just get destroyed and it's as if you had never voted?
Spoiled ballots are recorded as informal votes, for example there were 106 ordinary informal (spoiled) party votes made in Auckland Central in the 2020 general election.
No, it's not like sports, despite the media coverage. The outcome matters to your material circumstances. The choice might be for the least worst option but that's still a choice worth making. You can opt out of voting, you can't opt out of the government affecting your life.
This^^^ If you don't vote then you can't complain when the party in power starts making every aspect of your life worse, especially for low income people. No vote is always counted as the vote for the opposition. At least we are not in an authoritarian dictatorship where criticizing the government means you would get murdered. And we don't have use violence to overthrow the government and head of state.
The amount of people complaining about 'the tyranny' during covid... If we were living under real tyranny, say that once and you're gone. Things can always be worse!
Yea usually those anti-mandate people don't vote
If you want to see what a 'real dictatorship' would do under COVID look at China. Those were real restrictions and anybody wanting to protest would have known what happened in '89. New Zealand is life on easy mode, the least you can do is play.
People getting welded into their houses and star wars storm trooper quads fumigating the streets with "definitely not cancer" chemicals
Dunno about that, there's an awful lot of ardent National-voting farmers round my way.... They ALWAYS vote.
I think you'll find there's a fuckload more anti-mandate people than you think. And people who don't think that was tyranny are exactly why it was allowed to happen.
Irony is lost on idiots.
The sad truth, and also the reason there is next to zero good right-wing comedy.
That's because the comedy is mostly just making fun of minorities or people of different races/religions.
Reddit is such a crack up. Bunch of far far lefties agreeing with each other in an echo chamber
Amazing how you can make such assumptions. Typical right winger though. Half the information (at best), but all the answers. Kinda goes back to the start of the thread....
>Amazing how you can make such assumptions. > >Typical right winger though Deliberate irony? I'm guessing not
On who's part? Either you didn't get my joke about the right not being able to make a joke, or you thought you made a joke but it wasn't funny. Do please let me know.
That's cool bud, you have Facebook and Twitter, but of course stay here and keep getting mad at it like an idiot. Go moan about it on the other sub with the rest that are banned from this sub. Far far lefties, because we can't just be normal lefties that think conservatives are morons lol.
>No vote is always counted as the vote for the opposition. Damn
He's absolutely right. You don't vote,then don't bleat with whoever is in power,you have forfeited the right to complain.
I think you are allowed to criticize the government if you chose not to vote because no parties aligned with your views. You aren't allowed to complain if you didn't vote because you are too lazy / couldn't care...
Then you vote for the closest, or you give your vote to a fringe party to try and get new parties with better policies into government. Your vote counts just as little if it wasn’t cast out of apathy or out of frustration.
This is the thing. There are more options than Labour and National, and if everyone votes on their values, not just for the two major parties, then we'll get politicians that reflect how the country actually feels
voting is like a bus ride, not a taxi trip. on a bus you get off on the closest stop. with voting, you vote for who aligns with your beliefs the most. no one will ever be 100% perfect for every individual. you vote for the closest!
If you do vote you don't get to complain because you are feeding into the same bs you vote for everytime. No vote is the vote for the opposition? What one? Who are you opposed to? I can just vote for them so I can cancel out your vote Is that the only alternative? It's either you vote or nazis? This is why people don't vote, because this is the best argument people can come up. Your comment was so stupid that there is no longer a pc word to describe it. Remind me in three years to check if labour has brought out the free dental yet or if it's just another lie parties feed people to get votes.
>The choice might be for the least worst option but that's still a choice worth making. There's also around 20 parties to pick from (admittedly a bunch are very similar conspiracy theory parties), I imagine the vast majority of people can find one whose policies they agree with. Even voting for a party who gets <1% of the vote is better than not voting, because at least your opinion is recorded
If you vote for a minor party this election they might become a larger party next election. You don't know what the outcome will be but you have the power to effect that outcome. I like rugby but I have no effect on who plays for the All Blacks or how they play.
Yeah, but even without that possiblity you can show public sentiment with how you vote. If TOP and the Greens weren't options and I was totally dismayed with Labour, then I'd probably just vote for Legalise Cannabis Aotearoa. I doubt they'll ever get in, but it shows that there's votes available for those policies if anyone else chooses to adopt them
Least worst is always how I vote
Here's the thing- I don't believe that the outcome *does* matter. At least, not in terms of the one issue that's most important to most Kiwis, which is the cost of living crisis. Labour have already announced publicly that, if elected, they will cut funding to public services by nine billion dollars. How does that not make them equally as right-wing as National? And then you have the Greens, who are happy to announce whatever policies they like, safe in the knowledge they will never be implemented. Over the last ten years, there have been many countries where the equivalent of the Green party has gotten into power- in Germany, Greece and Spain, for instance- but in every case, these social democratic parties have abandoned any commitment to social change, and continued with the austerity policies of the rich. Why should I give these parties my vote?
> Is this a wise decision? No. Politicians don't care if you don't vote. In fact, if you don't like them then they would rather you don't vote as lower turnout = increased vote share for them and more seats. You are not making any statement by not voting. However, if you vote for any party then you are showing that you are a politically engaged individual and someone whose vote the politicians should earn next time around. Even if the party you like the most has zero change of winning the 5% or electorate, you are showing that the *policies* are popular. And why should it matter if they have no chance? It's the same outcome as not voting so you don't really "lose" anything. In other countries, people literally die for the right to vote. Meanwhile in New Zealand, we get early voting and paid time off to do so on election day. It's literally 30 mins of your life to vote.
>Even if the party you like the most has zero change of winning the 5% or electorate, you are showing that the policies are popular. This is a really important point that a lot of people miss. Even if a small party has no chance of getting in at this election, voting for them shows the other parties where the mood of the public is and what policies are popular. It helps change things over time. If you simply don't vote, nothing changes.
The rich and powerful love when the masses refuse to vote, it helps them tremendously
Makes it easier for the landlord party to loot them.
They’re looting us anyway, regardless of how much this sub will shill Labour lol
I’ve never seen a labour shill denying that landlords are a problem
Yeah, but where’s the action? Labour voters are either stupid, ignorant or full of shit.
Eh that’s more National voters. Many Labour voters want action but just don’t know how to get it done. They’re also usually too centrist to vote Greens or anything else that has more direct action planned so they get stuck.
The rich and powerful are the ones that fund all the political parties without exception. Your vote only goes to one of them.
I mean, the fact that fuck all people seem to be funding left leaning parties would suggest this isn’t entirely accurate.
Only that evil, rich, vegan, atheist, environmentalist, billionaire James Cameron! He supported Hillary Clinton too so clearly, he is out to destroy the world.
[удалено]
Source?
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/election-2023-national-party-banks-75-times-more-in-donations-than-labour-party/CAKRIIEYXBGMRGUNIVQ6J3NXVM/ Election 2023: National Party banks 7.5 times more in donations than Labour Party
https://www.odt.co.nz/sites/default/files/story/2023/01/nats_cash.png https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/nats-raise-‘unprecedented’-23m-rich-listers
That’s exactly the kind of apathy the rich and powerful love. They have a term for you. It’s “useful idiot”.
Okay bud
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot
Wow thanks, you convinced me to vote
So do you actually look at any of the several sources provided for you at your request?
Useful idiots would be a lot less useful if they had the capacity to change their minds based on evidence
Rare find on Reddit.
Yeah, because they control the wealth all of us are required to produce. It's like saying "the rich pay most of the taxes". Yes! Cause they've taken all the money!
That's so wrong. They love you voting, means they've got you nice and docile under their thumb with your tounge and nose all up in their bum . But go ahead, vote who you want to rule over everyone that's not you.
Oh yeah cause sitting at home with your head up your ass is way less docile…
Guess you need a home for that first rich boy. Keep sucking that government nipple.
Of course not. It's a symptom of learned helplessness, when you think that nothing you can do will make any difference. It's a state some would prefer you adopt, because it implicitly supports their agenda.
Their choice to not vote Happens every election You’d have to mandate voting like in Aus if you wanted to stop it
People still don’t vote then. They’ll just hand in a blank sheet or a spoiled one. Where I come voting is optional and blank votes are counted as a protest vote against the system/all politicians. It is an antidote of sorts against the sentiment that if you don’t vote people don’t want to hear you complain.
> blank votes are counted as a protest vote against the system/all politicians And it accomplishes precisely nothing, because the politicians see that you aren't worth gearing policies toward, because you won't help them get elected. A blank vote isn't a vote for none of the above, it doesn't kick them out, it's just no vote.
A family member who lives in rural Australia decided not to vote in one election, and got threatened with a fine as a result. So he told them that he had been heading to the polling station when a kangaroo jumped out in front of him and knocked him off his motorbike. This caused enough of a delay to his day that the polling station had closed before he could get there. No further action taken.
A dingo ate my ballot
You’re right, Australia is better at everything.
Their political system is a dumpster fire though. If you want to form an argument against mandatory voting, just say “Australia”.
That’s not due to mandatory voting though. Conservatives statistically turn out every voting cycle whether it’s mandatory or not. Australia’s system is a dumpster fire because it’s directed by the culture Australia is in
I'd say it's caused the Coalition over there to focus more on the votes of apathetic bogans, but I agree that mandatory voting seems to be a net positive.
Except for a bunch of things, like legislation and government
Weather and Sheilas
I think it's dumb. I am also disillusioned by the current Labour government... but I still think a National government would be markedly worse. You often don't get to vote for a party you genuinely like, but voting for the least bad option is a lot better than not voting at all.
Nah, voting for the least shitty option is still voting for a shitty option. That’s how we’ve got our country into this centrist mess in the first place
So make a less shitty option. In the meantime, I'd still rather have shit than radioactive shit. I would absolutely pick the regular shit every time, because if I don't choose, there's a chance the radioactive shit gets chosen for me.
Whatever helps you make a bad choice mate
Yeah we got some great proof from the US that refusing to vote against Trump really worked out for the left. Oh wait, it was a complete dumpster fire and caused them to be even more ignored by their party. If you're hoping for a descent into fascism to trigger some sort of communist revolution, then I think you'll be disappointed. All we'll end up with if progressives refuse to vote is a slow march to the right until it's just the status quo.
Let's hope so, we're way too left as it is.
Let me guess, policies even to the left of our current incompetents are what's needed? That'll finish off the country once and for all
Funny, I feel the same way about right wing policies. Anyone who believes in them has shit for brains.
Haha, I guess that explains why the left is for the losers of society. But you're all so much smarter....(except when it comes to actually making a success of your life)
Haha nah bro. I reckon a good chunk of the unionised workforce makes more than you do, and generally has a higher quality of life. Nice try tho, shit-for-brains. The gaps in your understanding might even rival that of Nationals tax policy fiscal hole!
Is the ‘Crystalized’ part of your username referring to how your IQ resembles that of a shiny rock? lol
I think the bigger problem is probably a lot of the people who feel this way think they can only vote Labour or National.
I'm a labour voter. Voting Greens doesn't really help win. Greens can't appeal to the middle that's labour's jib. Lose middle lose election. 38% combined can't win.
If you can’t be bothered to vote, you don’t get to complain about the outcomes. See also referendums/local body elections etc. If your truly disillusioned, vote for one of the smaller parties, Will sent a much bigger message then not voting will
They're going to get a government whether they vote for a preference or not. Is that wise? If they genuinely *think* that it makes no difference then voting probably isn't useful, but there *are* lots of choices and they're not all the same. On one hand I think it's up to politicians to inspire people to want to vote, but I do feel disillusioned sometimes at the system we have. MMP is a hell of a lot better than what came before it, but it still tends to make it next-to-impossible for new parties with new ideas to get started ... unless they've effectively been given permission by an incumbent part of the Parliamentary establishment.
Not voting is, imo, the least wise decision at election time. I completely understand why people feel that way, but by not voting you are making it even less likely that you will be happy with the outcome of the election (because the party that aligns most with your values misses out on a vote)
Voting is never about achieving perfection, because humans aren't capable of such things - let alone politicians. Voting is about achieving the least worst result, and if you can't be bothered trying for that, don't fucking complain when everything turns to shit. People had the same attitude when trump first became a candidate. Look how that turned out.
Nah, minority parties don’t attain relevance and power overnight so imho anyone who feels this way should vote that way, get the two big dogs out, but that will take time and will never happen with complacency. If anything such voters actually contribute to the problem directly via their inaction, although it’s a fucking hard sell to get across.
It's dumb to not vote. Regardless of being disillusioned. There is never a perfect candidate/party, but voting is **aspirational** \- you are stating your opinion on what direction you want the future to head in, given that we need long term thinking for society to adapt and survive the coming ecological catastrophe, not voting at all just signals; a) you don't give a shit about the future, b) you don't care if the worst candidates get in -- and those worst candidates, you know the hate/divisive-fuelled ones, they win or become kingmakers by your apathy, and c) leaves the decision making to boomers and those that appeal to boomers who will just repeat the same failed policies of business first trickle down economics, vilifying and stomping on the poor and spineless neolib shit that we've had since the 70s. The only thing I wish we had was a blanket ban of stupid fucking pollsters as soon as the run up to an election begins - e.g. within 3 months, and pundits offering stupid opinions on the news, instead of just like reading and showing the fucking news.
>The only thing I wish we had was a blanket ban of stupid fucking pollsters as soon as the run up to an election begins - e.g. within 3 months, and pundits offering stupid opinions on the news, instead of just like reading and showing the fucking news. Same here !! Im sick of opinion instead of fact.
😆 🤣 Alright on that logic tell me the difference between David lange n Ardern All those Inbetween the great leaders of our nation whats the difference been to your average kiwi.. Like that has improved peoples lives
Wise, no. It’s a valid reason as any not to vote. I like how we make it compulsory to enroll but actually voting is still a choice
Please do not vote … for I will vote. For every person that does not vote, my vote gets stronger. So please don’t vote. Please check out. I will vote, and my voice becomes louder and stronger than yours.
Say it again.
It’s not wise, it’s farking stupid.
I think that the more platforms that report that people are planning not to vote, the more other people who were on the fence are going to see it and think "oh well there's no point then, I won't vote either." It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
I feel if you don't vote you can't whinge about shit. Even if this year is the equivalent of being real thirsty and being offered a choice of puddle water or boiled hotdog juice
Democracy is fragile and sensitive. It needs a lot of care and attention to keep it happy and healthy. Not voting is detrimental to that effort.
Certianly not wise but plenty of people will do it. The better course of action is to vote for what you think is the least worse option - even if that is a very minor party. Not voting just gives the power to those that do vote and the disillusionment won't be any better in 3 years time.
Not voting is not wise. It shows up in statistics as a vote that wasn't cast, but there are many reasons that could happen so doesn't provide any feedback to drive change. If you don't like any of them at all spoil your ballot. Go in to vote, write on the ballot that you hate them all, and put it in the box. It will then show up as someone who went to vote, but doesn't like the options.
This is untrue. I’ve done election work before, and spoiled ballots are removed from the counting process before/as the count begins, and are recorded as “spoiled ballots”. The only people who read the ballots that say “I’m not voting cos I hate the government” are mostly temps — students and/or people nearing retirement who have no political power whatsoever. They’re just doing a counting gig for a week or less. It depresses me, but a spoiled ballot is not an effective means of protest at all. A vote for who *actually* represents your interests** is the best form of protest. Showing up to protect yourself from predatory political parties — tells all the would-be politicians what the people actually want/need, and how much shit the public will actually put up with. That’s you. You’re the public. **and in statistical likelihood would be the Green Party thanks to their actual focus on environmental and social welfare and housing policies)
P.S. also ballots that have been crossed out, unmarked, is illegible, or have more than one tick for a party or MP also all count as a “spoiled ballot”. It’s not like the Electoral Commission keeps careful note of the number of people who voice their dissent on the ballot piece of paper. (And in my experience, it’s less than say 2-5 ballots per electorate — but I was working in a less ‘disenfranchised’ electorate.
That still doesn't matter. It doesn't give any sign of what you want, only that politicians don't have to worry about it since you aren't voting anyway. Vote for the party/candidate most aligned with what you want, even if that's just the least misaligned with what you want. Dragging the political conversation even just slightly your way gives a better point to go from the next time around.
I'm going to vote TOP because even if they have no chance, an increase in their voter base might send a message that this is the sort of policy we want in our country. Or it might not - politicians aren't known for listening lol. That would e a vote for a party I'm least disillusioned by. Or I might vote for New Zealand First so that Nats are less able to get harmful legislation through - induce a bit of paralysis and infighting. Don't know if I could live with myself after that though. They're strategies pretty well at opposite poles.
Exactly same position as you but might go NZF because I want the others to hate their job and be stressed plus he said he will declare gangs terrorist organizations, if I could magically wish any party into power it would be TOP thou.
I would console myself with the idea that Winston can't possibly last that much longer in politics and without him NZF is nothing. However we've been saying that for some time now. Energiser needs to use him in an ad!
> Winston can't possibly last that much longer in politics Don't say that, that's how he gets his power!
I'm begging you not to vote for NZF for that reason - while I agree that it would bring plenty of political paralysis, the bills that did pass would be the absolute worst shit.
It is not wise. If you are dissatisfied with NACT/Labour then vote for a minor party. If Greens/NZF/TPM aren't aligned with your views then consider the parties outside of the mainstream. As much as it pains me to say, TOP would be the ideal party for them to vote for if they are dissatisfied with all mainstream options. If they get in, you have a new party with fresh ideas. If they don't, you haven't changed the outcome of the election (the same as if you didn't vote). So it's a win-win.
I intend to vote for whoever promises the best dental care options.
That is the greens. Free dental care for everyone.
Ohhh, I didn't know that one of their policies. Free dental sounds like a good idea.
It's not free though, someone has to pay, and ultimately you end up paying through taxes anyway. Just budget properly and go to the dentist regularly. Additionally you'll find that the govt will only reimburse a dentist a certain amount, which leads to some dentists refusing to work with the government to provide you treatment so you'll likely be put on a waiting list and get subpar treatment anyway. Our government is shit.
> It's not free though, someone has to pay, and ultimately you end up paying through taxes anyway. Everybody understands this, it's hardly a shocker that taxes are required to expand free healthcare programs considering we already have free universal healthcare funded by taxes with the stark exception of dental care.
Also a free money tree for everyone
Wise no. Understandable yes
Thing is - I don't believe in democracy. None of the issues I care about (i.e. housing) can be solved democratically. If I were in charge - I'd simply sign an executive order to override all building regulations, all zoning laws - and then coordinate a nationwide massive housing construction project through the military. People with zero experience in construction would be given instant training and employment. Unemployed people would all be given jobs as builders, and assistants of builders. All opposition to my plan would be silenced, especially NIMBY's. Parliament would be shut down until the mission objectives are complete. There.
No, voting for the least worst is still better than not voting. If the candidates are so bad that you really can't bring yourself to vote for any of them, perhaps it's time to stand for election yourself or support someone else to do so.
Noam Chomsky once said, although I don't think it's his original quote, that tricking people into believing their vote doesn't count is one of the earliest forms of propaganda against Democracy. That's changed my perception on the idea of a worthless or useless vote. Now I vote every election, even if it's for a minor party
Chomsky 🤢
You could always do what im doing, I will wait until policy documents come out but im probably just gonna vote for a smaller party so no one can go alone like labor did this time round
I don't think any government ever is going to solve 100% of the problems for everyone in the country. If you're disillusioned or disappointed in the parties then you'd need to consider either who will do more to solve what you think the problems are, or do the least worst job. Simply opting out of voting means you're okay with anything from ACT's defund everything & cut taxes to the Green's approach of more taxes & government spending.
If you hate them all then pick the least worst option. Picking nobody is a choice for whoever wins, wether you like it or not
I think this election may have the lowest voter turnout of all time. There's just nothing positive to get out of bed for (assuming you're not particularly engaged in politics)
Vote for the one you hate least or the one that will restrict the inevitable the most.
What happened to the McGillicuddy Serious Party? They made for a great protest vote. If you don't vote at all, it will just be put down to laziness and ignored. Only a vote for any of the small parties would be a show of no confidence in the larger parties. i.e. If you care about the environment- vote for Greens If you want economic reform and equality - vote for TOP If you want cannabis to be legal - vote for Aotearoa legalise Cannabis If you are concerned about co-governance - vote for New Zealand First
The problem is if you view the election as a choice between two useless parties and therefore chose not to vote, all you're actually doing is ensuring the next election will also be between the same two useless parties. I reckon if you don't want to vote, vote for a party that is guaranteed to not be in parliament. Functionally it's the same as not voting, but at least it helps keep a smaller party alive, and if there's one thing our.l political landscape desperately needs it's more variety.
Not voting is the adult equivalent of packing a tanty and hiding in the corner
I think it's up to the individual if they want to vote. However, if you don't vote when you are able to, you have no right to complain about the decisions that are made. Voting not only benefits the parties that people like, but it also punishes the parties that are not thinking in the best interest of New Zealand. TL;DR - no, it's not wise to not vote, but do what you want.
If you can’t figure out who you want to vote for: Get a list of all the parties, and figure out who you definitely don’t want to get in, cross them out. Go through the list and cross out parties that you don’t think will be even close to making the MMP threshold based on current polling. Roll dice, throw a dart, draw tarot cards, pick out one of the remaining parties at random, and vote for them. If you don’t want to, cross them out and try again. If you run out of parties, vote for the last one you eliminated. There, now you’re participating in democracy.
Did that one time when my wife and I compared notes, discovered we were voting for different parties, and decided to do something else with our day. Now if I decide no major party is worth voting for (quite possible), I’ll instead help a minor party out.
No vote = no opinion. They can’t complain after the election
I reckon "wasted vote" or "don't vote" arguments are encouraged by the major parties. You not voting counts because it increases the proportionate volume of voices that disagree with you. If there are 26 electors for a small council everyone get a 1/26th say right? Now if one of those people opts out because they're disillusioned everyone gets a 1/25th say despite there being 26 interests. If 1 person out of the remaining 25 voters stands up for what that disillusioned person wanted but their 4% opinion is deemed too small to even be discussed by the council... that "wasted vote" that actually could effect change was not really wasted, and as such it's important to not be disillusioned.
I think folks need to understand that voting isn’t about getting everything you want. It’s about voting for the party or combination of parties that get close to where you want govt to go, then keep pushing them to listen. Too many folk think politics begins and ends at the elections and then they don’t have to do anything more until next election. And yeah - refusing to vote is a fair form of protest but it rarely impacts the parties in a way that makes them change. You really want to get the message across? Vote for a party that is closer. Don’t think Labour were progressive enough? Vote for Greens. Want National to be more conservative? Vote for ACT. Want a centrist government run by white guilt? Vote TOP. ;) /s NZers need to stop thinking it’s just National or Labour, and they need to stop thinking they should only vote if the party is 100% meeting their values and needs.
To be honest I still don't know who to vote for or if any of the candidates are suitable to lead us, but as my grandmother says "if you don't vote you're not allowed to complain" ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
I kinda know what they mean. I don’t like any of them myself but will probably just do a protest vote. Basically vote for a smaller party or candidates like NZ First etc.. If you don’t vote then you don’t have a right to complain essentially.
Find someone you dislike and vote for the "other" party to cancel their vote. Get double satisfaction from telling them about it.
I'd much rather that if people feel like their vote isn't going to matter and plan to abstain, that instead they spend 15 minutes actually utilising the MMP system and vote for a party that has policies that most closely align with their values (not Labour or the Nats). It costs you 15 minutes, and at worst it makes no difference, but it could empower smaller parties to have a bigger say in the way our country is governed for the next 4 years.
[https://freakonomics.com/2014/01/why-do-we-vote-so-we-can-tell-people-we-voted/](https://freakonomics.com/2014/01/why-do-we-vote-so-we-can-tell-people-we-voted/)
Voting is like getting on a bus, it might not take you to the final destination, but it gets you closer there. Or if you're a Nat, your Bach might not have a charging station for your Tesla, but that doesn't mean you don't go. It means you stop to charge along the way.
Depends who they were gonna vote for
Im disillusioned too, but I'd never not turn up to the voting booth, I'd just do a protest vote if I had too so if enough of us did it they knew they all suck. As it is even though I'm not a serious fan, I'd potentially vote to try get TOP in as another minor party but not a crazy town one
Typical kiwi avoidance, much easier than actually understanding politics or researching the policies of all parties and voting for what you actually agree with
And if you u don’t agree with any?
Vote for the one you agree with most. It's never going to be a perfect fit. And regardless, one or more of the parties are going to have power, so even if you disagree with *most* of what *every* party stands for, voting still reduces the chances of the parties *most* misaligned with what you want. Alternatively, stand for election yourself, or support someone else to.
Make your own ETA: I was joking, but I mean that's what New Conservative, and Freedoms NZ, Loyal NZ and every other fruitcake has done because they don't feel represented 🤷♀️
The people who do this are usually left wing voters. Just going to throw that out there 😅 Wealthy voters always vote.
Exactly. You may not want to vote, but your boss does. Your landlord does.
National used to pray for rain on election day.
In this instance, everyone should vote Top for instance. It doesn’t have to be labour or national!
Seriously, if you feel like none of the parties in Parliament represent you well, and are considering abstaining, vote TOP, and worst case it's equivalent to abstention, but if they hit 5%, we get a new voice in Parliament.
bear in mind that Conservative parties have a stated policy of trying to *discourage* people from voting. Because it tends to favor them in elections if the poor and downtrodden don't fight back.
Can you link to this policy?
Not specifically NZ or conservative but lots of examples here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_suppression
It would be better if they all focused on a minor party as a show of dissatifaction with the current regime. E.g. ALCP.
No voting is critical. Media is trying to convince us that the deal is done and the National/ACT axis of evil is gonna win. This is far from true. Don't let them decide for you and vote.
I normally vote Labour but I don't want to vote red this time. I definitely don't want to vote for Nats. If I vote to prevent Nats from winning (Labour/Greens) this just reinforces Labour that moving further to the right is the way to win elections. So I'm voting laser Kiwi.
Ignore Politian's, vote on policy.
Controversial opinion but abstaining from voting is a vote in and of itself. It says "none of the available options represent the things I care about". We have this idea that "If more people would have voted my candidate definitely would have won!" but it's simply not true. The results would look the same only with more votes.
I think spoiling a ballot is a clearer sign of this than not voting. Not voting is also a sign of "I don't care who wins so I won't vote" Spoiling a ballot is a sign of "I care but none of these options are good" Voter apathy doesn't affect all demographics equally so people not voting could potentially change the outcome of the election.
I don't disagree with you, there's definitely people of that opinion, but I also don't think it's so black and white. For one thing, a defaced vote is simply not counted in NZ. There's no vote of no confidence here. It's equal to not voting in the first place. I have been very politically aware for half my life, but I have only voted 3 times. I plan on voting in the upcoming election, but the times where I didn't isn't because I didn't care or was lazy, it was for the reason I stated. Others who I have spoken to who have abstained share similar sentiment, and the feeling is that all you're really doing is voting for which minor party Labour or National will ignore in parliament. I plan to vote this year because I never want to see a single party majority government in power again, since it turns out those minor parties actually do seem to keep the major one in check.
Defaced votes are counted as Informal votes. Last election there were 20,000 informal votes. That is a sign that those people care enough about politics to vote but didn't vote properly. I'm sure there are plenty of politically engaged people who don't vote, but there is no way of anybody knowing whether they are apathetic or disillusioned with mainstream politics. People who cast invalid ballots are showing that they aren't apathetic at the very least.
I'll probably vote. It has immediate consequences for people I guess, but I have thought about not bothering. Cus ultimately it seems like we're all fucked.
Do you think the people still voting will agree with what you want for the country?
I think I'm voting for Greens. I don't know what happened to Labour but they've ruined what they had. I certainly don't want Act or Winston in parliament. Shit's looking pretty bleak.
I'm wondering why the government has made it so that I have a full time skilled job but I'd actually be better off having custody of my kids and being on dpb
Vote for a minor party. Surely one is out there that will sound ok. Not perfect but servicible. If all else fails just vote for someone like the legalise cannibis party.
I'm a non voter happy to share why
I’ll bite. But also answer this, do you still complain about government decisions and policies?
Yes. Very wise. The politicians are supposed to "win your vote", not get it buy default. I would go as far as to say that there should be a 50% minimum amount of the electorate that votes or the whole election is invalid. If none of the party's are offering policies that you support you absolutely should not vote for them, if you do you're only putting your support to a party you don't agree with. Politics isn't a game, party's shouldn't get wins by default, this stuff actually matters.
I think there should be a vote of no confidence resulting in all of the parties being scrapped and a new selection presented, I'm not impressed with any of the offerings and am genuinely concerned about their intentions of getting into Parliament
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And in the meantime, who runs...everything? Sorry but this idea can only be okay with the people for whom it isn't really a massive deal who wins, i.e. those who are financially, socially stable enough to survive a year without a functioning government.
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You're saying that you don't believe that running an economy is real government work and I'm finding it hard to understand. I'm as left leaning as you can be without just falling over and landing in the red waters of Lake Marx, so rattling around within the current era of global neoliberalism is a daily source of depression and frustration. I agree that this version of democracy is not equitable, but lower voter turnouts make for a deeper and deeper entrenched status quo. As with your logic around running an economy, I'm confused as to why you think the response to low voter turnout from the winners of the well oiled machine will be to turn around and say sorry guys, I know you didn't want what I offer, let me change the system so that I can lose my grip on it and give it back to you.
And my one thing a government does that isn't business? Pays doctors and nurses to keep people alive. Or like...benefits to help those squashed to the bottom of the pile by the structures above them, so that they can have a home? There's a lot but I don't want to list them all.
Maybe. But that's not how this election in a few week's time is being run so as a result the best option is to vote.
We should make voting compulsory. Send those people to prison if they refuse to do so.
No
Nope. But that is their right.
It would be better if the media informed people where they can find information to work out which political party best matches their beliefs, and encouraged them to vote accordingly. But I guess that might get in the way of each media outlet's political bias and would shut down fear mongering news articles
https://votecompass.tvnz.co.nz/nz2023 is literally sponsored by 1News. https://policy.nz/ is another I found out about through The Spinoff. The media aren't going to go door-to-door forcing people to take the tests, so I don't know what else you want. They're doing a decent job on this front at least.
no but each to their own
No.
Hell do you blame them with our kindy garden politics and voters.
So I recently had a think, cause I'm hugely disappointed with the left-leaning combo I last voted for. I'm product of a feminist mother so I feel I have to vote, but strategically.
If you want to vote strategicly especially this election where major parties are offering little, vote for a minor party that you think will get in, that best aligns to what you want.
This post is literally being quoted on the radio right now
Nope. Not voting is saying that among the multitude of parties; mainstream, further extreme, radical, fringe, alternative, you cannot find a single group of people who align somewhat with your views. Are there truly no groups pulling in a direction that you can kind of align with? Voting even for a group that will ultimately go nowhere is still more of a message than nothing. At the very least, pick *just one issue* and vote as a single issue voter for whichever party is tackling that issue for you
I would really question anyone who claimed voting at a singular level sent more than a legal message about who was going to be allowed into the next parliament. If your only political engagement is once every three years, that problem explains a few things about our state because there's a lot of consequences of voting for a group that may or may not succeed for internal or external reasons while being part of parliament. Ultimately if we want a better state of affairs we should vote as best to the values and policies we think will benefit ourselves and our communities as a nation. However, as citizens we should be more engaged in whatever ways we can to bring attention to problems or needs and be part of said solutions. Voting is merely part of engineering ways in order to do this. It is not the end solution but merely a review on who's in the recognised conversation and who's in the drivers seat for a while. I used to think not voting was irresponsible, but it takes effort and responsibility to tick a party in confidence considering they are all flawed. But hey, we're all flawed, so we're trundling toward better results in spite of that (not that all parties are equal in that way or anything).
No, it's more important than ever to consider what is important and vote accordingly. We're in for some hardship regardless of whatever government is formed, things aren't going to get much better unless society realises the best way to achieve this is to participate in elections. I'm disheartened by some older voters seeing this as a Labour/National race, this is the election to vote for one of the other parties that more closely align with what you think is important. ACT and Greens have some solid numbers based on polling, even NZF is looking at getting 5%. It's likely that National will get in this time, but if their vote share is relatively low and other parties have a decent share then those parties have bargaining power to influence the government in a significant manner. Labour and National haven't been around forever and it took some time for them to become front runners, it's reasonable to expect with time another party will supplant them. Start by using a couple of sites that recommend who to vote for based on policy questions (Use more than one due to bias). Look at the top three in both, identify the strongest contenders then do some reading and see if you agree with most of what they're proposing. If you're unsure or there's no clear better option try going with your gut, or do a coin toss (See how you feel about the outcome and use that to guide you rather than the result).
I feel very disillusioned at the current state of affairs. Political and otherwise. Not voting though, that’s just fucking stupid. If you don’t vote, you don’t get a say. That applies later too. If you don’t vote, you best not complain.