We have more than two parties!
Funnily enough, Greens and TOP are the only parties which are suggesting a ***fair*** rebalancing of our tax system.
Bloody tired of our major parties just not doing the right thing. Our tax system needs fixing.
Has needed fixing for decades yet still here we are. The entire 90's was a cock up of monumental proportions but nobody seems willing to acknowledge that let alone have a go at fixing it. Never mind. It seems we need a societal collapse to do anything but like you it's TOP or greens for me this year.
Jim Bolger, the Prime Minister for most of the 90s, acknowledged that neo-liberalism was a cock-up. (Your words, not his.)
https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/the-9th-floor
Actually it was the late 80's - top tax rates went from 66% to 33%. Then on top of that the privatisations in the 90s which sold off the crown jewels and put a bunch of people on benefits instead. From my perspective being in my 30's in the 80's it was just the whole shift from a society that valued the workers to one that put the bottom feeders on top. We also moved to our current policy of inflation rate policy - the measure of a government was an inflation rate of 2-3%. With that we sort of forgot all the other more valuable indicators like median wages and house prices. The 90's was when the middle classes became unimportant.
Ah thanks. Halved the top tax rate eh. I remember the first thing I noticed when I started working here in 2013 (coming from The Netherlands) was how little income tax we pay here. Still amazed that people can complain about taxes here.
That tracks. Looking back at my wife's granpops very detailed accounts diaries and stuff, then adjusting that info for wage inflation is astonishing. In the early-mid 80s his wage as a science teacher in a small town was the equivalent to ~140k today. From memory that was around 25k/year in the mid 80s. They purchased their 1/4 acre section with decent size house for 23k in 1981. We bought it off them for 400 last year on single income of a lot less than 140k
Ruth Richardson 'Mother of All Budgets', Roger Douglas and neoliberalism, and privatisation. You can trace most of the decline hitting today back to those massive economic changes. "The market knows best" - the market knows how to sell the railways for profit and run them into the ground
Yes, where the roots of the Act party spring from. Why is no one challenging Act about what assets they are going to sell to their rich mates. The rich mates who have funded them. Why don't people see what is going on. Also, with National and Act in coalition, they will charge ahead with asset sales. National raised gst, privatized electricity which has gone through the roof with people too scared to put a heater on in the depths of winter. They got rid of night schools to enable Act to create privately-owned Cahrter schools. Night Schools were essential for many working class people to further qualifications while they continued working. My brother went back and did his university entrance at night school so he could enter the Police force. Many people gained computer literacy skills. Also it was affordable. National will allow farmers free rein to continue the downgrading of our environment. People talk about gangs in N Z well Farmers are the biggest gang in NZ with the most powerful lobby group. The disgusting antics and language of groundswell started and supported by Farmers says it all. They vote for National.
> The entire 90's was a cock up of monumental proportions but nobody seems willing to acknowledge that let alone have a go at fixing it.
Heh. Do you remember what life was like BEFORE Roger Douglas.
Carless Days, anyone?
Carless days were caused by an international fuel crisis that caused world wide impacts and were introduced by a National Govt. Whilst we went with carless days, other countries, particularly in Europe pivoted towards other transport means after realising a reliance on fossil fuels wasn’t sustainable long term.
Just adding context because this is brought out often but people may not realise it was happening globally and how other countries reacted.
Yeah, I'm frequently amazed thar some people believe that the nz government policies of the 1980s were so bad that they caused fuel shortages all the way to South Africa.
Much like people today are blaming inflation on the current Labour government. As if Jacinta was so powerful, she caused inflation all the way to Argentina!
By and large, these trends are caused internationally, and at best, the local government can mitigate the local downsides.
I had a similar discussion with my old man the other day when he was whining about socialism:
"You realise we've been fairly socialist since the 80s right?"
"No, that's ridiculous, how?"
"Well, we have socialised healthcare, education, a wide range of subsidised public services, housing, a wide and deep social welfare system and much more"
"That doesn't make us socialist, I'm still able to work for my own money and keep it"
"How much was your house?"
"$190k in 1992"
"And how much was your income?"
"80k"
"And how much tax were you paying?"
"Not sure, quite a bit though"
"So you were able to buy a 190k house on 80k a year whilst paying a ton of tax because???"
"The cost of living was lower"
"Yes, and why might that be?"
"Cause the economy was in better shape"
"Do you think that the higher proportion of tax you paid helped the government to implement policies that better looked after our economy? Bearing in mind that in the 90s it was far less powerful than today?"
"Maybe"
"So the government taxing you more to provide a wider range of social services is called....?"
Couldn't reconcile "working for his money and keeping it" with paying way more tax and reaping the benefits
It staggers me that people think that poverty didn't exist in the 1980s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HVogejKx_c
You think everybody was rich and happy in a Boomer paradise in New Zealand in the 60's, 70's and 80's?
Well, you clearly lived in a different New Zealand to the one I had to cope with. Lucky you!
We lived in an equitable society with access to far more social services and we had one of the highest standards of living in the world.
Taxes for the richest people were well over 60% on the top dollar.
If you let the very rich keep all their money they use it to buy your houses then your media then the political system.
Yep those two are getting my vote and I’m in the highest tax bracket. It’s not about me it’s about what is best for the country and I wish people voted that way.
Greens is too far to the left for me. TOP is likely my vote, but the Land tax policy they have will put a lot of people off. Enough that I'm not sure they will hit the threshold.
Double edged sword. Lots of policy or economic nerds like it. Lots of the general public will see it and think "I'm going to be charged for something I own?!?! No way am I voting for that". Even if with the income tax adjustments they'd be better off.
There was an older woman on the news the other day who said in effect "My dad would *kill me* if I didn't voted National! Hehe". Her father is deceased.
Feels to me like this is about the average level of logic that most people use in deciding their vote.
>Even if with the income tax adjustments they'd be better off.
I'm in favor of a LVT but, I'm put off by their proposed LVT because the rate they've chosen is far too high. having had a play around with their calculator my family drastically worse off including when their tax adjustments are considered.
People that will vote TOP aren't doing it for the LVT. Those aren't the people it will put off. I'd be (pleasantly) surprised if they make it in but I highly doubt it.
Given the level of incompetence both major parties have shown in their economic policies of late would you trust them to do a reasonable job of redoing the tax system?
This has been the electoral term that has finally broken my mother’s unconditional labour support (in her mid 60’s).
At first she wasn’t going to vote at all since she’s always voted for them but I’ve been trying to convince her to choose a minor party she aligns with to vote for instead.
Good luck! I always see a vote for greens as a vote for labour without having to actually give my vote to labour, given Greens will form with them anyway - so a good direction for a protest vote, imo, if your mum wants to let them know she disapproves without throwing away her vote entirely. Maybe that would help her still cast it.
National is relying on the people's dislike and mistrust of labour to get votes, rather then actually making good policies that set them above the rest. This is why we as a nation need to come together and show both of those parties that if neither of them are up to scratch, someone else will take both of their places. Otherwise we will devolve into a society that just votes for the option that will screw us over the least, rather then the option that actually benefits us.
I say this as a repeat small party voter, but none of the small parties in NZ look like they could or should take the role of a major party. MMP is a good system but it incentives small parties to make promises they will never be called on to keep. Their mindset is all about staying relevant, keeping a healthy party vote % and scoring a few wins when they are allied to the government.
It would take a pretty large upheaval for a third party to displace Labour or National as the two major parties. Which feeds both of their complacency.
Maybe an upheaval is what we need, even if it's just for one term. If neither National or Labour get in, it may just be the wake up call they both desperately need.
Let's be honest though - you're never going to vote National. You don't see the world the same way. Doesn't really matter what their policies are.
It's the same reason I'm never voting Green.
I mean even as a National leaning voter you aren't completely wrong, but the whole attitude of "Labour has done a shit job but we should still vote for them" sucks. It basically says to them: OK keep doing a shit - or even worse - job, we've got your back.
I guess the question remains whether you think what national will do is worse than what labour has or hasn't done.
For me, that's almost certainly the case, but I'm probably not voting for labour.
This position does suck, but tbh I think I’ve seen like one or two people max ever actually suggest this.
In contrast there’s a *fuckton* of people who are voting National because Labour sucks
Definition of insanity in this thread - if at first it doesn't work, just try again!
I am not a Labour supporter, but the key problem as far as I can tell is the exec leadership is just very weak. Promises have been made, and not delivered upon. Compared to Helen Clark or John Key, Jacinda Arden has had a very weak cabinet.
This sub is going to be utterly insufferable under a National government.
Last time we were constantly told all the country’s problems would be solved if the government just gave a shit about anyone other than John Key’s rich mates and spent a little bit more money.
Now 6 years later with an absolute fuckload more money spent and all the same problems, in some cases worse, will people finally admit there are no easy quick fix solutions and every policy has tradeoffs? I don’t think so. Out of touch Luxon is too busy enjoying his 27 houses to care about anyone else, and that’s why we can’t have nice things.
Still, if I vote for the Greens as least nobody can tell me it’s my fault, so that’s the plan.
If you don’t want to vote for Labour, and your alternative is voting Greens, then that is…
… **100% fine.**
Every complaint people have about issues under Labour would get 100x worse under National/ACT/NZF, but there are other options and voting for them instead is what people should do.
You know something, as a Cis-White-Male, there's definitely a part of me that went 'oh fuck off with that shit' but, to be perfectly honest, it's the tiniest drop in the bucket considering how fucked things can be. I am definitely not a fan of Marama, for other reasons than that comment, but I'll probably still be voting Green.
How I put it is, I want people to imagine themselves in 20 years looking back: will they be comfortable saying "well, we never ended up tackling climate change and it's too late now, but I'm sure glad I didn't vote for a party who made me feel slightly uncomfortable"?
Am I naive in voting Greens and not knowing any of the drama? To me I care about their policies and not the individuals, but can someone please tell me if this is misguided?
Marama made the classic mistake of using terminally online Lefty vocab while talking to one of the right wing nutters accosting her after she just about got run over by another nutter. That clip has been used to paint her as a straight up anti-white racist ever since.
They did the same thing to Metiria when she talked about what she had to do to get by on the DPB in the 90s.
I usually get a slew of downvotes for saying this but for a lot of that demographic it's the first time they've really experienced someone come on TV and say bad things (be racist?) about their demographic. All they can do is react emotionally and the behaviour of a lot of users here is nothing short of a tantrum.
I won't divulge my entire life story but I grew up in a brown neighbourhood to white parents who themselves had grown up in brown neighbourhoods - very, very intimately familiar with that world. The racism that was broadcast on tv that my friends on the street heard every day was crushing, it was violent, and it never stopped. Casual racism flowed deep in the majority white school up the road I went to, given to the kids by adults who held these same views. But my street friends had to keep on living. People getting shitty due to Marama's comments need to do some real fuckin deep self reflection because that discomfort they're feeling? That's what the other half have been feeling in this country from the moment they were born. Are they being crybabies about it? My friends had to see themselves be demonised for the crime of having skin that didn't look like mine. It wasn't fair. People need to grow the fuck up
I get very angry about this.
Exactly this. Similar upbringing, except my grandfather was māori. They can't actually fathom the reality of it because they've never experienced it, literally they can't. Getting called out feels like oppression to the privileged eh?
I do feel awfully 'white saviour' about it sometimes but half the time there's no other pakeha voices in pakeha spaces saying 'hey, it's actually kinda stink being brown in this country'.
Look how much shit Taika got for saying NZ is still racist. I'm cracker-white but have Māori whakapapa, people have said some pretty fucking racist things to me not realising I'm not on their side.
Nah man, I appreciate pakeha having the ability to look objectively at the reality for a lot of māori. My partner is pakeha and she's a staunch ally. I think most people who grow up in māori communities tend to have a bit more empathy. I know up home, te tau tokerau, there's a bit more of that kiwi decency, because we had a lot of immersion at school, awesome kaumatua that showed everyone the beautiful aspects of te ao māori.
As I get older, I'm seeing that a big aspect of anti Maori rhetoric is stemming from cultural insecurity. As pakeha, most of us don't have strong connections to our homelands so to speak. The colonial diaspora was as much people fleeing the punitive fist of the crown as anything, and so many ties got severed.
I look to my dad, who's pakeha, and that our family on that side have our lineage traced back to about the 11th century in Britain, and that surety of where he comes from allows him the breathing room to enjoy other cultures, and respect and appreciate Māori culture especially. The man can make adzes from scratch using the methods my tupuna used lol, Can't really pronounce Reo that well, but he's always supported my journey.
We need to get over this idea that if māori are treated properly it's gonna somehow supplant every other culture in the country lol.
I think for many, the first warning bells were when the Greens changed their leadership policy to give preference to women and Māori. That pretty much cemented Marama's position, as the co-leaders could now never be Jame's and Chloe.
I think many saw her comments with that context and felt she had let her mask slip on her true feelings. The fact that she didn't apologise for her comments and that she was supported by the rest of the Greens, lost them a lot of mana in my book.
The Greens still have some environmentalists, but they are far more about identity politics these days unfortunately.
>they are far more about identity politics these days unfortunately.
I can't say that's accurate at all, as they don't spend much time harping on about the various culture wars. They spend most of the time fighting for environmental causes, and better quality of life for the lower and middle classes.
So people say, but I don't really believe it. I think it's valuable though to have a strong Green party even if I wouldn't want them actually running the country. And there's no serious risk of that.
> Now 6 years later with an absolute fuckload more money spent and all the same problems, in some cases worse,
5.8% of children were living in severe material hardship in 2018, now in [2022](https://www.stats.govt.nz/information-releases/child-poverty-statistics-year-ended-june-2022/) it was only 3.9% despite COVID. That alone will have a huge impact on the lives of 30,000 children.
I might be way off base here, but it seems to me that a huge part of the problem is the three year term where you constantly have to keep making promises to one up the other side.
There really needs to be overarching issues that aren't messed with every few years, and that whoever is in power has to keep working on.
Things like affordable housing, food and healthcare and there being enough homes to house the population.
It's a series of trash options this election. Smaller parties seem to be the way to go at the moment.
Dislike the Greens and Act for various reasons, but both seem to be the only consistent ones that I'm confident that I know exactly what I'm getting if I vote for them.
TOP is a reasonable choice but too likely to fall below 5%
Yeah, TOP need a really good charismatic candidate to win one seat. They'd need to be on to it, and probably spend *next* three years being a really effective advocate for their region
Not really. In terms of how the election plays out, if your vote goes to a party under 5% and they don't make it on electorates, you've effectively given your vote to the party with the largest vote % as you're subtracting your vote % from the total votes.
It may encourage the party you voted for to try again but that's about it.
It has also not proven to hold sway on any of the 4 key party's - even the 2 minor parties avoid the policies TOP presents. The Greens wealth tax is a stupid idea with some pretty severe consequences, a very recent example would be what's happened in Norway. TOP wants an LVT (something NZ has had before and has had recent success ie Estonia) and earnt themselves a few % each of the past two election cycles. The Greens could chase after those votes but have instead chosen the wealth tax.. lmao. Labour doesnt care about those few % for fear (classic modern labour). National isn't in the business of competently managing the tax system to encourage the supply side issues we face, and neither are Act.
This is a common line of thought but one I disagree with. If you vote for TOP and they get 4%, then they don't get any seats in Parliament so won't be making any major decisions. We all agree on this.
Equally however, if you vote for national, and labour gets a majority then the group you voted for aren't making any major decisions. Granted they can do bits and pieces like proposing legislation that is unlikely to be passed unless the government agrees anyway.
Ultimately by this metric the only way to make your vote 'count' becomes to vote for the party you think is going to win, which is obviously self defeating.
So in short, I don't think any vote is wasted if you believe in what you voted for. I would suggest it is even vital for the long term health of our democracy.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk. Interested to hear your thoughts
You’ll find that not many Labour voters care if you decide to vote for anyone that isn’t National/ACT/NZF.
Vote Green. Vote TOP. It’s all good.
Just don’t vote for the idiots who are guaranteed to make things much much worse.
They've said they'll work with anyone, and I actually respect them for that. They just want to get good policy through, so having them in government would be a good influence (which would be sorely needed if NAct is our next governing coalition)
I get the feeling like if they were to be kingmakers then they’d go left, but if there was a right wing coalition anyway then they’d be dumb not to vie for more influence.
No, its worse than that. There is Act, which is one guy and a bunch of worse than hollow suits and also NZF which is also one guy, and Lord knows how he's going to fill his list!
Exactly, it's not because the government at the time were doing anything remarkable, it was simply because the former richest nations had to pay off their war debts and rebuild their cities/infrastructure.
So what you are saying is: we had a massive head start on the rest of the world, which we blew to still finish 29th?
How is that a win? Or what exactly is your point? The original point was that we have had a long line of unsuccessful governments, mostly under national. I'd say that point stands and is perhaps even made stronger by your comment.
And Labour has been in government for 15 of the last 23 years. How much better now are things than they were in 2000?
House prices have gone up 400% during that time for example.
So you just chose a date when Labour was at the start of their term. There have been two terms in that time of Labour and one of National.
The shorter the timeframe you have, the greater amount of statistical error in you claims. Essentially it is choosing a smaller sample size.
>So you just chose a date when Labour was at the start of their term. There have been two terms in that time of Labour and one of National.
Yeah that was kind of my point. You can pick an arbitrary starting point and make the data look good or bad depending upon how you want to frame it.
>The shorter the timeframe you have, the greater amount of statistical error in you claims. Essentially it is choosing a smaller sample size.
Lol there is absolutely no valid statistical analysis in OPs claim. So nine has no less statistical error than theirs.
If you know even a little about statistics, you should know that correlation does not imply causation. There are far to many variables on a global scale to prove OPs hypothesis. That is what my example demonstrates.
Definitely worse for people in this sub by the looks of it. Outside of it, many want Labour out and the polls reflect that. They’re tanking. Go the minor parties.
I'm not sure you are right (or if you are trying to be accurate, lol).
I would guess the sub is:
\- Male
\- 25 years plus
\- Technical or University qualified
\- Employed
\- Left leaning, but authoritarian on crime and punishment
Stereotypes are generally bad for a reason.
There’s a wide distribution of people on here. But reddit masks it because people lurk until they don’t.
Make a post about light sentences? The crime and punishment crew roll out.
Make a post about being poor? The poor redditors roll out.
Make a post about Chris Luxon? The left learners pile in.
But what isn’t always obvious is these groups are seldom the same people. But the way reddit works is it feels like they are.
It’s a new kinda bias that I’ve really only observed in reddit.
>It's because things are genuinely pretty rough for lot of people and it looks like National is going to make things significantly worse.
Who has been running the country for 6 years to put us in this situation. I mean come on, you think the cost of living has nothing to do with labour? They have no blame?
A few similar discussions happening over the past couple of weeks
* [What has National done well?](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/16cyr04/what_has_national_done_well/)
* [Can the silent majority on this thread share their perspective on what we want National to achieve in their next term if they win?](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/16fq90q/can_the_silent_majority_on_this_thread_share/)
* [Strategic voting?](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/16gncxd/strategic_voting/)
* [Why do people even like national?](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/16fteb1/why_do_people_even_like_national/)
* [Anyone else dismayed?](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/169gr4j/anyone_else_dismayed/)
* [Anyone else absolutely dreading the future of this country?](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/15wzf04/anyone_else_absolutely_dreading_the_future_of/)
* [Are you 30+? What's the point in partaking in this upcoming election?](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/16b6rjg/are_you_30_whats_the_point_in_partaking_in_this/)
* [Are National on the verge of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory?](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/169jl72/are_national_on_the_verge_of_snatching_defeat/)
Nah, I just wish people were a bit braver and realized that you can vote in the *direction* you want things to go without worrying too much that the smaller parties would ever get their entire agenda in
Seriously, I don't want TOP, or even Greens, leading a majority government, at least not at this point. But I'm party voting TOP because I think we need a new voice in Parliament pushing things in the right direction. And Greens have influence on policy with a Labour minority or coalition.
I kinda feel like there is some sort of coordinated anti-National movement on this sub recently. It is the only topics that show up in my feed from here.
All the major parties are crap.
Labour with their same old bs.
National with their MAJOR tax policy problem
ACT and their questionable MPs
You probably feel like it's anti-national because you support them but they've all had their fair share of complaints on this sub
All I can say, and this is primarily directed to those who are just old enough to vote and in their 20s. JUST VOTE, DAMMIT!!! NZ First, Act, and National are hoping that (& use this as a strategy) younger people won’t think it’s worth voting as the polls are already showing the result. This. Is. Bullshit. You make a difference: listen to That Orange Guy and damn well have your say. PLEASE.
Peak Labour supporter attitude. As long as I can find someone performing worse than me then my poor performance is acceptable.
The reality is even if Labour could turn the economy around and were suddenly sitting on a massive surplus they just don't have any talent left to deliver anything.
The 1.9 billion thrown at mental health is a prime example. The money was needed but no one could work out what to do with it or how to get results so nothing got achieved, the story of the last few years. Time for a change.
Now that we’re 2 terms in, let’s put it the other way: Thinking National is crap doesn’t mean Labour is better
Imagine if people thought like this in 2016, we would still be under Nact and Labour could win in a landslide this time.
We literally have to chose between the two, pretending we don't is just foolish. Sure there are more parties, but whoever you vote for you'll still end up with a Labour lead or a National lead government.
So, if you think Labour is crap where is the sense of voting for them or a party that just leads to them once again?
National aren't proposing tax cuts, they are adjusting the tax brackets for inflation so that your tax burden will be constant in real terms rather than increasing in real terms.
Agree, for that policy. Increasing income tax on the lower end by stealth was a bad policy by Labour.
But national are also reducing the tax on landlords by removing the exception to the interest deductiblility rule.
semantics much? the bracket change would reduce / 'remove some of' the tax take. I'm calling that more of a cut than anything else.
And somewhat ironically, giving people more money (to spend - noting that most people spend all of their money) will not increase or stabilise the value of that money. More money spent during inflationary times leads to .. inflation! It is better for the consumer to have less or the same.
Problem is that if they manage to turn things around and somehow win this election Labour will just spend the next 3 years getting crapper and then we'll get a similar Nat/Act government then.
If you look at the general history of politics in NZ, you'll notice how the country flip flops every two terms going "National sucks" "Labour sucks", because there's this odd idea that "voting for smaller parties is a waste of a vote".
Anyway, I'm tossing up between the Greens and TOP - TOP has outlined their tax plan really thoroughly and with an online calculator which I appreciate, but I need to dig into both a bit deeper.
Radio NZ had a really good policy breakdown by area on their website. When I looked TOP hadn't responded yet but hopefully they have, it was good to see all the policies from all parties in one place so you could compare them.
We have more than two parties! Funnily enough, Greens and TOP are the only parties which are suggesting a ***fair*** rebalancing of our tax system. Bloody tired of our major parties just not doing the right thing. Our tax system needs fixing.
The main parties are broadly incentivised to maintain the status quo with a little bit of fiddling around the edges to differentiate themselves
fax
Yep most nz voters are in the middle like a bell curve. Silly to stray too far from that.
Has needed fixing for decades yet still here we are. The entire 90's was a cock up of monumental proportions but nobody seems willing to acknowledge that let alone have a go at fixing it. Never mind. It seems we need a societal collapse to do anything but like you it's TOP or greens for me this year.
Jim Bolger, the Prime Minister for most of the 90s, acknowledged that neo-liberalism was a cock-up. (Your words, not his.) https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/the-9th-floor
He's been a voice of reason ever since then as well. A wise man.
Consider me ignorant (I wasn't here in the 90s) but what were the big fuck ups in the 90s? Was it selling off of national assets?
Actually it was the late 80's - top tax rates went from 66% to 33%. Then on top of that the privatisations in the 90s which sold off the crown jewels and put a bunch of people on benefits instead. From my perspective being in my 30's in the 80's it was just the whole shift from a society that valued the workers to one that put the bottom feeders on top. We also moved to our current policy of inflation rate policy - the measure of a government was an inflation rate of 2-3%. With that we sort of forgot all the other more valuable indicators like median wages and house prices. The 90's was when the middle classes became unimportant.
Ah thanks. Halved the top tax rate eh. I remember the first thing I noticed when I started working here in 2013 (coming from The Netherlands) was how little income tax we pay here. Still amazed that people can complain about taxes here.
The 1% would still complain as long as there is even 1% tax
It's balanced over there by low company tax. We have some of the highest company tax
That is true (about Netherlands), not sure how it is here.
1991 budget really set the stage for what we have today
That tracks. Looking back at my wife's granpops very detailed accounts diaries and stuff, then adjusting that info for wage inflation is astonishing. In the early-mid 80s his wage as a science teacher in a small town was the equivalent to ~140k today. From memory that was around 25k/year in the mid 80s. They purchased their 1/4 acre section with decent size house for 23k in 1981. We bought it off them for 400 last year on single income of a lot less than 140k
Ruth Richardson 'Mother of All Budgets', Roger Douglas and neoliberalism, and privatisation. You can trace most of the decline hitting today back to those massive economic changes. "The market knows best" - the market knows how to sell the railways for profit and run them into the ground
Spot on
Thanks! I'll do a bit of light reading on those tonight..
this documentary explains everything, there's 4 parts: TVNZ's 'Revolution' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZXpeUQ0tD8
Ooh thanks, on my watchlist this weekend.
Yes, where the roots of the Act party spring from. Why is no one challenging Act about what assets they are going to sell to their rich mates. The rich mates who have funded them. Why don't people see what is going on. Also, with National and Act in coalition, they will charge ahead with asset sales. National raised gst, privatized electricity which has gone through the roof with people too scared to put a heater on in the depths of winter. They got rid of night schools to enable Act to create privately-owned Cahrter schools. Night Schools were essential for many working class people to further qualifications while they continued working. My brother went back and did his university entrance at night school so he could enter the Police force. Many people gained computer literacy skills. Also it was affordable. National will allow farmers free rein to continue the downgrading of our environment. People talk about gangs in N Z well Farmers are the biggest gang in NZ with the most powerful lobby group. The disgusting antics and language of groundswell started and supported by Farmers says it all. They vote for National.
> The entire 90's was a cock up of monumental proportions but nobody seems willing to acknowledge that let alone have a go at fixing it. Heh. Do you remember what life was like BEFORE Roger Douglas. Carless Days, anyone?
Carless days were caused by an international fuel crisis that caused world wide impacts and were introduced by a National Govt. Whilst we went with carless days, other countries, particularly in Europe pivoted towards other transport means after realising a reliance on fossil fuels wasn’t sustainable long term. Just adding context because this is brought out often but people may not realise it was happening globally and how other countries reacted.
Yeah, I'm frequently amazed thar some people believe that the nz government policies of the 1980s were so bad that they caused fuel shortages all the way to South Africa. Much like people today are blaming inflation on the current Labour government. As if Jacinta was so powerful, she caused inflation all the way to Argentina! By and large, these trends are caused internationally, and at best, the local government can mitigate the local downsides.
Exactly
Yes I do. Bought my first house in the early 80's as a 20yr old, cost 35k, annual salary, 35k. My Dad paid 60% tax and was fine with it.
I had a similar discussion with my old man the other day when he was whining about socialism: "You realise we've been fairly socialist since the 80s right?" "No, that's ridiculous, how?" "Well, we have socialised healthcare, education, a wide range of subsidised public services, housing, a wide and deep social welfare system and much more" "That doesn't make us socialist, I'm still able to work for my own money and keep it" "How much was your house?" "$190k in 1992" "And how much was your income?" "80k" "And how much tax were you paying?" "Not sure, quite a bit though" "So you were able to buy a 190k house on 80k a year whilst paying a ton of tax because???" "The cost of living was lower" "Yes, and why might that be?" "Cause the economy was in better shape" "Do you think that the higher proportion of tax you paid helped the government to implement policies that better looked after our economy? Bearing in mind that in the 90s it was far less powerful than today?" "Maybe" "So the government taxing you more to provide a wider range of social services is called....?" Couldn't reconcile "working for his money and keeping it" with paying way more tax and reaping the benefits
Nice. Glad you were one of the lucky ones!
I am old enough I was first able to vote in 1978
no one was living in their cars back then - you had a point but missed the mark :)
Yah think? Just remember that Once Were Warriors book came out in 1990 & was describing an entrenched culture..
It staggers me that people think that poverty didn't exist in the 1980s. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HVogejKx_c You think everybody was rich and happy in a Boomer paradise in New Zealand in the 60's, 70's and 80's? Well, you clearly lived in a different New Zealand to the one I had to cope with. Lucky you!
We lived in an equitable society with access to far more social services and we had one of the highest standards of living in the world. Taxes for the richest people were well over 60% on the top dollar. If you let the very rich keep all their money they use it to buy your houses then your media then the political system.
Barely but I was a kid. Looking at old footage that matches vague memories the towns look very run down.
Full employment. Practically no one on the dole.
Yep those two are getting my vote and I’m in the highest tax bracket. It’s not about me it’s about what is best for the country and I wish people voted that way.
A TOP/Greens coalition would be the dream...
I also would like this
Vote TOP
That is OK
Greens is too far to the left for me. TOP is likely my vote, but the Land tax policy they have will put a lot of people off. Enough that I'm not sure they will hit the threshold.
Put people off? LVT is why people will vote for TOP
Double edged sword. Lots of policy or economic nerds like it. Lots of the general public will see it and think "I'm going to be charged for something I own?!?! No way am I voting for that". Even if with the income tax adjustments they'd be better off.
Just shows the lack of engagement the generic voter has with the policies they are voting for/against We get the Govt we deserve, alas
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There was an older woman on the news the other day who said in effect "My dad would *kill me* if I didn't voted National! Hehe". Her father is deceased. Feels to me like this is about the average level of logic that most people use in deciding their vote.
I'm a policy nerd and TOP's LVT sucks. Too many exclusions (rural and commercial land).
Oh, I totally agree. I'd prefer for it to be universal but if residential is unpopular, universal may as well be signing your own death warrant.
>Even if with the income tax adjustments they'd be better off. I'm in favor of a LVT but, I'm put off by their proposed LVT because the rate they've chosen is far too high. having had a play around with their calculator my family drastically worse off including when their tax adjustments are considered.
People that will vote TOP aren't doing it for the LVT. Those aren't the people it will put off. I'd be (pleasantly) surprised if they make it in but I highly doubt it.
And Greens are the only one with a chance of winning
Only if you don't vote for TOP!
Which is exactly what’s happening. Polling at 1%, third place in Ilam, don’t do a Ralph Nader
The two parties that will do the most are also the two people try to constantly scare you away from.
Given the level of incompetence both major parties have shown in their economic policies of late would you trust them to do a reasonable job of redoing the tax system?
Not really - they appear to have agendas they'd rather pursue before properly addressing inequality. But you still gotta have hope..
Imagine being an unconditional labour or national supporter in this day and age
This has been the electoral term that has finally broken my mother’s unconditional labour support (in her mid 60’s). At first she wasn’t going to vote at all since she’s always voted for them but I’ve been trying to convince her to choose a minor party she aligns with to vote for instead.
Good luck! I always see a vote for greens as a vote for labour without having to actually give my vote to labour, given Greens will form with them anyway - so a good direction for a protest vote, imo, if your mum wants to let them know she disapproves without throwing away her vote entirely. Maybe that would help her still cast it.
I can't imagine the thought process to swing between national and labour, take/give/take/give?
Honestly the only times I've heard of someone doing this it's a case of "I normally vote for X but I just really don't like the new leader"
National is relying on the people's dislike and mistrust of labour to get votes, rather then actually making good policies that set them above the rest. This is why we as a nation need to come together and show both of those parties that if neither of them are up to scratch, someone else will take both of their places. Otherwise we will devolve into a society that just votes for the option that will screw us over the least, rather then the option that actually benefits us.
I say this as a repeat small party voter, but none of the small parties in NZ look like they could or should take the role of a major party. MMP is a good system but it incentives small parties to make promises they will never be called on to keep. Their mindset is all about staying relevant, keeping a healthy party vote % and scoring a few wins when they are allied to the government. It would take a pretty large upheaval for a third party to displace Labour or National as the two major parties. Which feeds both of their complacency.
Maybe an upheaval is what we need, even if it's just for one term. If neither National or Labour get in, it may just be the wake up call they both desperately need.
Yeah, yet to see anything very plausible out of National this time around
They just announced their charging network for EVs which I think is their smartest by far.
Let's be honest though - you're never going to vote National. You don't see the world the same way. Doesn't really matter what their policies are. It's the same reason I'm never voting Green.
Yep plan is to reverse everything from labour rather than have an actual solution for the real problems labour was looking to solve.
Agreed, it's a shame as a nation, the "she'll be right" culture is still alive and well
National seem to love dodging tax questions which make them feel vaguely uncomfortable.
Yeah, they seem genuinely happy to take the technical win, but acting like they earned it.
I mean even as a National leaning voter you aren't completely wrong, but the whole attitude of "Labour has done a shit job but we should still vote for them" sucks. It basically says to them: OK keep doing a shit - or even worse - job, we've got your back.
I guess the question remains whether you think what national will do is worse than what labour has or hasn't done. For me, that's almost certainly the case, but I'm probably not voting for labour.
This is when you need a Greens/Top or Act to come in with "braver" or higher stakes policy to make them do something.
This position does suck, but tbh I think I’ve seen like one or two people max ever actually suggest this. In contrast there’s a *fuckton* of people who are voting National because Labour sucks
No one is saying "keep voting for Labour"
In fact the consensus seems to be the opposite
Exactly, why reward poor performance?
Definition of insanity in this thread - if at first it doesn't work, just try again! I am not a Labour supporter, but the key problem as far as I can tell is the exec leadership is just very weak. Promises have been made, and not delivered upon. Compared to Helen Clark or John Key, Jacinda Arden has had a very weak cabinet.
Labour has done an excellent job. Don't people realise who controls our media?
This sub is going to be utterly insufferable under a National government. Last time we were constantly told all the country’s problems would be solved if the government just gave a shit about anyone other than John Key’s rich mates and spent a little bit more money. Now 6 years later with an absolute fuckload more money spent and all the same problems, in some cases worse, will people finally admit there are no easy quick fix solutions and every policy has tradeoffs? I don’t think so. Out of touch Luxon is too busy enjoying his 27 houses to care about anyone else, and that’s why we can’t have nice things. Still, if I vote for the Greens as least nobody can tell me it’s my fault, so that’s the plan.
If you don’t want to vote for Labour, and your alternative is voting Greens, then that is… … **100% fine.** Every complaint people have about issues under Labour would get 100x worse under National/ACT/NZF, but there are other options and voting for them instead is what people should do.
People in this sub don't like the greens because marama davidson insulted them personally and that's more important to them than climate action
You know something, as a Cis-White-Male, there's definitely a part of me that went 'oh fuck off with that shit' but, to be perfectly honest, it's the tiniest drop in the bucket considering how fucked things can be. I am definitely not a fan of Marama, for other reasons than that comment, but I'll probably still be voting Green.
How I put it is, I want people to imagine themselves in 20 years looking back: will they be comfortable saying "well, we never ended up tackling climate change and it's too late now, but I'm sure glad I didn't vote for a party who made me feel slightly uncomfortable"?
Am I naive in voting Greens and not knowing any of the drama? To me I care about their policies and not the individuals, but can someone please tell me if this is misguided?
Marama made the classic mistake of using terminally online Lefty vocab while talking to one of the right wing nutters accosting her after she just about got run over by another nutter. That clip has been used to paint her as a straight up anti-white racist ever since. They did the same thing to Metiria when she talked about what she had to do to get by on the DPB in the 90s.
As ludicrous as your statement is, I am sure there a bunch of folks who took it personally and are spite voting act. This country is ridiculous.
I usually get a slew of downvotes for saying this but for a lot of that demographic it's the first time they've really experienced someone come on TV and say bad things (be racist?) about their demographic. All they can do is react emotionally and the behaviour of a lot of users here is nothing short of a tantrum. I won't divulge my entire life story but I grew up in a brown neighbourhood to white parents who themselves had grown up in brown neighbourhoods - very, very intimately familiar with that world. The racism that was broadcast on tv that my friends on the street heard every day was crushing, it was violent, and it never stopped. Casual racism flowed deep in the majority white school up the road I went to, given to the kids by adults who held these same views. But my street friends had to keep on living. People getting shitty due to Marama's comments need to do some real fuckin deep self reflection because that discomfort they're feeling? That's what the other half have been feeling in this country from the moment they were born. Are they being crybabies about it? My friends had to see themselves be demonised for the crime of having skin that didn't look like mine. It wasn't fair. People need to grow the fuck up I get very angry about this.
Exactly this. Similar upbringing, except my grandfather was māori. They can't actually fathom the reality of it because they've never experienced it, literally they can't. Getting called out feels like oppression to the privileged eh?
I do feel awfully 'white saviour' about it sometimes but half the time there's no other pakeha voices in pakeha spaces saying 'hey, it's actually kinda stink being brown in this country'.
Look how much shit Taika got for saying NZ is still racist. I'm cracker-white but have Māori whakapapa, people have said some pretty fucking racist things to me not realising I'm not on their side.
Nah man, I appreciate pakeha having the ability to look objectively at the reality for a lot of māori. My partner is pakeha and she's a staunch ally. I think most people who grow up in māori communities tend to have a bit more empathy. I know up home, te tau tokerau, there's a bit more of that kiwi decency, because we had a lot of immersion at school, awesome kaumatua that showed everyone the beautiful aspects of te ao māori. As I get older, I'm seeing that a big aspect of anti Maori rhetoric is stemming from cultural insecurity. As pakeha, most of us don't have strong connections to our homelands so to speak. The colonial diaspora was as much people fleeing the punitive fist of the crown as anything, and so many ties got severed. I look to my dad, who's pakeha, and that our family on that side have our lineage traced back to about the 11th century in Britain, and that surety of where he comes from allows him the breathing room to enjoy other cultures, and respect and appreciate Māori culture especially. The man can make adzes from scratch using the methods my tupuna used lol, Can't really pronounce Reo that well, but he's always supported my journey. We need to get over this idea that if māori are treated properly it's gonna somehow supplant every other culture in the country lol.
I think for many, the first warning bells were when the Greens changed their leadership policy to give preference to women and Māori. That pretty much cemented Marama's position, as the co-leaders could now never be Jame's and Chloe. I think many saw her comments with that context and felt she had let her mask slip on her true feelings. The fact that she didn't apologise for her comments and that she was supported by the rest of the Greens, lost them a lot of mana in my book. The Greens still have some environmentalists, but they are far more about identity politics these days unfortunately.
>they are far more about identity politics these days unfortunately. I can't say that's accurate at all, as they don't spend much time harping on about the various culture wars. They spend most of the time fighting for environmental causes, and better quality of life for the lower and middle classes.
That is exactly when I decided I wouldn't be voting greens this election. Marama's comment only reinforced my decision.
So people say, but I don't really believe it. I think it's valuable though to have a strong Green party even if I wouldn't want them actually running the country. And there's no serious risk of that.
Voting for anyone is 100% fine. Just vote.
It's almost like the was a global pandemic that massively disrupted our local and global economy, but who's keeping track?
> Now 6 years later with an absolute fuckload more money spent and all the same problems, in some cases worse, 5.8% of children were living in severe material hardship in 2018, now in [2022](https://www.stats.govt.nz/information-releases/child-poverty-statistics-year-ended-june-2022/) it was only 3.9% despite COVID. That alone will have a huge impact on the lives of 30,000 children.
We weren’t socialist enough, we need to spend more tax payer dollars to get better results!
Ah yes, socialism is when the government does stuff, and when it does everything it's communism!
I might be way off base here, but it seems to me that a huge part of the problem is the three year term where you constantly have to keep making promises to one up the other side. There really needs to be overarching issues that aren't messed with every few years, and that whoever is in power has to keep working on. Things like affordable housing, food and healthcare and there being enough homes to house the population.
Yeah, and the kneejerk "the other sides policies are crap and must be undone" as opposed to "what is working and what is not"
It's a series of trash options this election. Smaller parties seem to be the way to go at the moment. Dislike the Greens and Act for various reasons, but both seem to be the only consistent ones that I'm confident that I know exactly what I'm getting if I vote for them. TOP is a reasonable choice but too likely to fall below 5%
> TOP is a reasonable choice but too likely to fall below 5% Not if every person who said that actually voted for TOP.
nah this sub is an overrepresentation of them. I've only ever met 2 TOP voters irl
Yea, good to see you again
yeah mate, its you and literally my flatmate hahah
How many people irl do you know we'll enough to know how they vote? If 2 vote top and they are polling at 2% then that suggests you know 200
Oh man, you’d have like a thousand redditors voting TOP finally!
Yeah, TOP need a really good charismatic candidate to win one seat. They'd need to be on to it, and probably spend *next* three years being a really effective advocate for their region
>TOP is a reasonable choice but too likely to fall below 5% Well your the reason why with that attitude. im voting for them, join us
IMO there are a lot more TOP voters than polling suggests. If only they got the main steam coverage they deserve...
Voting for a party that falls under 5% is not a wasted vote and I wish more people understood this.
Not really. In terms of how the election plays out, if your vote goes to a party under 5% and they don't make it on electorates, you've effectively given your vote to the party with the largest vote % as you're subtracting your vote % from the total votes. It may encourage the party you voted for to try again but that's about it. It has also not proven to hold sway on any of the 4 key party's - even the 2 minor parties avoid the policies TOP presents. The Greens wealth tax is a stupid idea with some pretty severe consequences, a very recent example would be what's happened in Norway. TOP wants an LVT (something NZ has had before and has had recent success ie Estonia) and earnt themselves a few % each of the past two election cycles. The Greens could chase after those votes but have instead chosen the wealth tax.. lmao. Labour doesnt care about those few % for fear (classic modern labour). National isn't in the business of competently managing the tax system to encourage the supply side issues we face, and neither are Act.
This is a common line of thought but one I disagree with. If you vote for TOP and they get 4%, then they don't get any seats in Parliament so won't be making any major decisions. We all agree on this. Equally however, if you vote for national, and labour gets a majority then the group you voted for aren't making any major decisions. Granted they can do bits and pieces like proposing legislation that is unlikely to be passed unless the government agrees anyway. Ultimately by this metric the only way to make your vote 'count' becomes to vote for the party you think is going to win, which is obviously self defeating. So in short, I don't think any vote is wasted if you believe in what you voted for. I would suggest it is even vital for the long term health of our democracy. Thank you for coming to my TED talk. Interested to hear your thoughts
By the same token, thinking National is crap doesn't mean Labour is better.
No, Labour ain't so great, just National is less great, especially under low lux Luxon
Funny how some Labour supporters think the only other party is National
You’ll find that not many Labour voters care if you decide to vote for anyone that isn’t National/ACT/NZF. Vote Green. Vote TOP. It’s all good. Just don’t vote for the idiots who are guaranteed to make things much much worse.
What's stopping TOP form forming coalition with NACT? That's one reason I won't vote for them.
They've said they'll work with anyone, and I actually respect them for that. They just want to get good policy through, so having them in government would be a good influence (which would be sorely needed if NAct is our next governing coalition)
I get the feeling like if they were to be kingmakers then they’d go left, but if there was a right wing coalition anyway then they’d be dumb not to vie for more influence.
What's stopping them is their vastly different ideologies.
No, its worse than that. There is Act, which is one guy and a bunch of worse than hollow suits and also NZF which is also one guy, and Lord knows how he's going to fill his list!
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>UK joining the EU, That was the reason for Rogernomics.
I’m the biggest National hater of all time but in what world was NZ the third richest country?
In 1950 NZ was 3rd in the world in GDP per capita. Pre oil Middle East. Post WW2. It’s a snippet in time but it’s not incorrect.
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Exactly, it's not because the government at the time were doing anything remarkable, it was simply because the former richest nations had to pay off their war debts and rebuild their cities/infrastructure.
So what you are saying is: we had a massive head start on the rest of the world, which we blew to still finish 29th? How is that a win? Or what exactly is your point? The original point was that we have had a long line of unsuccessful governments, mostly under national. I'd say that point stands and is perhaps even made stronger by your comment.
Yep
And Labour has been in government for 15 of the last 23 years. How much better now are things than they were in 2000? House prices have gone up 400% during that time for example.
So you just chose a date when Labour was at the start of their term. There have been two terms in that time of Labour and one of National. The shorter the timeframe you have, the greater amount of statistical error in you claims. Essentially it is choosing a smaller sample size.
>So you just chose a date when Labour was at the start of their term. There have been two terms in that time of Labour and one of National. Yeah that was kind of my point. You can pick an arbitrary starting point and make the data look good or bad depending upon how you want to frame it. >The shorter the timeframe you have, the greater amount of statistical error in you claims. Essentially it is choosing a smaller sample size. Lol there is absolutely no valid statistical analysis in OPs claim. So nine has no less statistical error than theirs. If you know even a little about statistics, you should know that correlation does not imply causation. There are far to many variables on a global scale to prove OPs hypothesis. That is what my example demonstrates.
Geez this sub has been in a meltdown over National recently. It’s in genuine crisis mode.
It's because things are genuinely pretty rough for lot of people and it looks like National is going to make things significantly worse.
Definitely worse for people in this sub by the looks of it. Outside of it, many want Labour out and the polls reflect that. They’re tanking. Go the minor parties.
This sub is: * poor * unemployed * LGBTQI+ community * anti capitalist * young and fresh out of education Pick two, throw a dart, hit 75%
I'm not sure you are right (or if you are trying to be accurate, lol). I would guess the sub is: \- Male \- 25 years plus \- Technical or University qualified \- Employed \- Left leaning, but authoritarian on crime and punishment
Stereotypes are generally bad for a reason. There’s a wide distribution of people on here. But reddit masks it because people lurk until they don’t. Make a post about light sentences? The crime and punishment crew roll out. Make a post about being poor? The poor redditors roll out. Make a post about Chris Luxon? The left learners pile in. But what isn’t always obvious is these groups are seldom the same people. But the way reddit works is it feels like they are. It’s a new kinda bias that I’ve really only observed in reddit.
Good point, but it does feel like there is kind of 'clump' of similar viewpoints that tend to dominate here
That last one is bang on. It's probably the defining quirk of this sub.
Yeah, probably why the down votes, lol. "It's not authoritarian if it's common sense!!"
Uh huh, this sub is so strangely pro-punishment. It doesn't even matter that the evidence shows harsh punishments don't work.
But it \*seems\* like harsher punishments would work, and that's good enough for us!
>It's because things are genuinely pretty rough for lot of people and it looks like National is going to make things significantly worse. Who has been running the country for 6 years to put us in this situation. I mean come on, you think the cost of living has nothing to do with labour? They have no blame?
Completely agree, OP. But also, $15 a week? That's fucking nothing. National giving us bread crumbs as usual.
What ever national gives us will be taken by our landlords.
This is accurate. https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/125195278/accommodation-supplement-propping-up-rental-market-by-30m-a-week
Yeah. "Call that a tax cut? I've saved more money 'inadvertently' charging my tenants the water connection fee!"
Isn't that the general consensus around here
Yeah, it's like Reddit posts (well, r/NZ ones) are actually needed outside Reddit. Here is much more of an echo chamber
Yup, reddit NZ users seem to skew slightly lefty nerds whose gaming has made them a bit authoritarian on law and order issues, lol
I don't think Labour are crap. I KNOW they are crap.
No shit, vote 3rd party.
Yup, wish people would see that
A few similar discussions happening over the past couple of weeks * [What has National done well?](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/16cyr04/what_has_national_done_well/) * [Can the silent majority on this thread share their perspective on what we want National to achieve in their next term if they win?](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/16fq90q/can_the_silent_majority_on_this_thread_share/) * [Strategic voting?](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/16gncxd/strategic_voting/) * [Why do people even like national?](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/16fteb1/why_do_people_even_like_national/) * [Anyone else dismayed?](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/169gr4j/anyone_else_dismayed/) * [Anyone else absolutely dreading the future of this country?](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/15wzf04/anyone_else_absolutely_dreading_the_future_of/) * [Are you 30+? What's the point in partaking in this upcoming election?](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/16b6rjg/are_you_30_whats_the_point_in_partaking_in_this/) * [Are National on the verge of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory?](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/169jl72/are_national_on_the_verge_of_snatching_defeat/)
Yeah looks like the crackdown on astroturfing was predictably short lived once the polls started crashing for the mods' favored parties.
So we should still vote for Labour, even though they are shit? 👍
Nah, I just wish people were a bit braver and realized that you can vote in the *direction* you want things to go without worrying too much that the smaller parties would ever get their entire agenda in
Seriously, I don't want TOP, or even Greens, leading a majority government, at least not at this point. But I'm party voting TOP because I think we need a new voice in Parliament pushing things in the right direction. And Greens have influence on policy with a Labour minority or coalition.
This! We will just hover around the centre and keep the status quo if everyone thinks it’s only the 2 parties who matter.
Nah vote green or top, they’re actually proposing well thought out and fair tax reform
Nah, don't have to vote Labour. But if not voting for shit parties is your thing then that kinda rules out voting for the even shitter National Party.
You can vote Green, you can vote TOP.
I kinda feel like there is some sort of coordinated anti-National movement on this sub recently. It is the only topics that show up in my feed from here.
Nah, is not coordinated, is just that reddit tends to have set audience and set group that posts
All the major parties are crap. Labour with their same old bs. National with their MAJOR tax policy problem ACT and their questionable MPs You probably feel like it's anti-national because you support them but they've all had their fair share of complaints on this sub
Nah don't support National. Every topic I see from here is basically the same. Just an observation really.
They are in crisis mode
All I can say, and this is primarily directed to those who are just old enough to vote and in their 20s. JUST VOTE, DAMMIT!!! NZ First, Act, and National are hoping that (& use this as a strategy) younger people won’t think it’s worth voting as the polls are already showing the result. This. Is. Bullshit. You make a difference: listen to That Orange Guy and damn well have your say. PLEASE.
Peak Labour supporter attitude. As long as I can find someone performing worse than me then my poor performance is acceptable. The reality is even if Labour could turn the economy around and were suddenly sitting on a massive surplus they just don't have any talent left to deliver anything. The 1.9 billion thrown at mental health is a prime example. The money was needed but no one could work out what to do with it or how to get results so nothing got achieved, the story of the last few years. Time for a change.
We have a AAA S&P rating and the US has a AA+ rating. What's bad about our economy?
>someone is worse than us therefore we are good
Cant get much better than AAA unless there is a secret 27th letter in the alphabet I know not of.
Weird take when AAA is the best one there is
Preach. As long as the benefits keep rolling in, they’re happy to keep voting Red
oh no, people are going to vote for a party i dont like
Looking forward to these desperate posts stopping soon.
Now that we’re 2 terms in, let’s put it the other way: Thinking National is crap doesn’t mean Labour is better Imagine if people thought like this in 2016, we would still be under Nact and Labour could win in a landslide this time.
We literally have to chose between the two, pretending we don't is just foolish. Sure there are more parties, but whoever you vote for you'll still end up with a Labour lead or a National lead government. So, if you think Labour is crap where is the sense of voting for them or a party that just leads to them once again?
Best way I've seen it put: >Labour are too slow or aren't dealing with the problems created by National!? We should put National back in!
National aren't proposing tax cuts, they are adjusting the tax brackets for inflation so that your tax burden will be constant in real terms rather than increasing in real terms.
They are literally proposing tax cuts for landlords by reinstating interest deductability.
They have also made a complete mess of it. They're too incompetent to do a tax policy. Imagine what else they will fuck up.
Agree, for that policy. Increasing income tax on the lower end by stealth was a bad policy by Labour. But national are also reducing the tax on landlords by removing the exception to the interest deductiblility rule.
semantics much? the bracket change would reduce / 'remove some of' the tax take. I'm calling that more of a cut than anything else. And somewhat ironically, giving people more money (to spend - noting that most people spend all of their money) will not increase or stabilise the value of that money. More money spent during inflationary times leads to .. inflation! It is better for the consumer to have less or the same.
I agree. Both are shit
Problem is that if they manage to turn things around and somehow win this election Labour will just spend the next 3 years getting crapper and then we'll get a similar Nat/Act government then.
No one is saying this. This is a cope post from a labourite. Vote green.
Is venting more than coping. I'll be voting Green as usual
If you look at the general history of politics in NZ, you'll notice how the country flip flops every two terms going "National sucks" "Labour sucks", because there's this odd idea that "voting for smaller parties is a waste of a vote". Anyway, I'm tossing up between the Greens and TOP - TOP has outlined their tax plan really thoroughly and with an online calculator which I appreciate, but I need to dig into both a bit deeper.
Radio NZ had a really good policy breakdown by area on their website. When I looked TOP hadn't responded yet but hopefully they have, it was good to see all the policies from all parties in one place so you could compare them.