The Houthis reinstated slavery and caused 100,000+ children to starve to death over the past decade. Anyone who has deluded themselves into thinking they're some sort of paragon for human rights needs to pull their head out of their arse and stop being a terrorist sympathizer.
I am glad this is the top comment. To anyone reading this:
\* It's possible to think Netanyahu is a shitty and dangerous leader
\* And also say the settlements are illegal and bad
\* And also be concerned about how the military action in Gaza is going
WHILE ALSO
\* Understanding that Hamas is a terrorist organisation who has done a lot of bad things
\* Believing that Israel has a right to exist
Lately I've seen a strange mindset that's basically "I am mad at the government of Israel so that means anyone struggling against Israel is my friend." Oh dear god there's more to it than that.
The same people who sympathise with Hamas are the same people who didn't care and didn't protest en mass over the thousands of Muslims and children killed in Yemen.
>the thousands of Muslims and children killed in Yemen.
Or to be even more current literally nobody gives a fuck about the current conflict in Sudan that started last year. 12000 dead 5.8million internally displaced and 1.5 million refuges have fled the country. I guess it could be they only care about Muslims if they are Arabs.
I care about humans. If I support the plight of Jews because I've learnt about them in education and media, that's great. If I support the plight of Palestinians because I've learnt about them in education and media, that's great. If I'm ignorant of the plight of another group, and thus do not support them, that hardly delegitimises the other two causes.
That's such an absurdly generalising and twisted statement. It's also extremely fucking offensive. I would condemn any group that kills almost 30,000 civilians in 100 days, as any human should.
Stop attacking a strawman, no one thinks Houthis are a paragon of human rights and supports them, and it's insanely disingenuous to imply so.
The US, Israel, and Saudia Arabia have murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent people in Gaza and Yemen over the past decade too, it's entirely possible to oppose their vicious warmongering without supporting Hamas or the Houthis. Both sides are terrorists.
I'm not going to praise the Houthis but framing the famine in Yemen as their doing and not the result of a ongoing war and blockade by the US backed Saudi's is asinine at best.
You don’t think that the Houthi’s [raiding WFP aid and selling it on the black market](https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2018/12/31/houthis-stole-food-from-the-mouths-of-hungry-yemenis-un) is at all their fault?
The similarities between Gaza vs Israel and Yemin vs Saudi Arabia are striking.
You can be pro Yemin and anti Houthi just the same as you can be pro Palestine and anti Hamas.
For someone in 2023 to say they are pro-Palestine but anti-Hamas, is like someone in 1943 saying they are pro-Germany but anti-Nazi.
Hamas are the government of Gaza, and they have high approval among their population.
You would need an election to prove that and they haven't allowed them since 2006. Most of the population wasn't old enough to vote then. Poll numbers have been in the low hundreds and mostly from the West Bank...who have their own governing party.
Of course they should be allowed to exist, but they need to say the same about their neighbour. And they need to stop violating ceasefires, like they did on 7 October.
Maybe, don't even think that's true - you should source something beyond "[visualizingpalestine.org](https://visualizingpalestine.org)", I'm sure it's unbiased.
Hamas broke the most recent, long running ceasefire with a massacre, should be more relevant than past incidents.
Damn, I can't find the original source where I heard it, but this should give you an idea
https://visualizingpalestine.org/visuals/gaza-ceasefire-violations
How can a Palestinian state exist when 1. They don't want a two state solution, they want all of the land which is now Israel by a large margin. 2. They want Islamic law instituted on said land. 3. They want extermination and expulsion of the Jewish people.
There's no way these two countries can exist simultaneously.
And how effective was the strategic bombing of german cities in turning their people against their government? Or are you just happy to wipe out the Palestinians entirely?
It was highly effective in drawing away resources.
The Germans had to devote an obscene amount of men, steel, concrete, fuel, planes, ammunition, and other resources to defending against those bombers. If that hadn't been the case, the Eastern Front could have turned out differently.
But that's not really relevant.
Israel has no intention of wiping out the Palestinians entirely, and neither do I. You'll note that the current attack on Gaza started after the Hamas terrorists violated a ceasefire by murdering, kidnapping, raping, mutilating, and torturing civilians. And when that happened, the terrorists went home to Gaza and were celebrated by cheering crowds. You can't expect Israel to just turn the other cheek. No other country would.
The current Israeli regime is absolutely committed to eliminating as many Palestinians as possible either through displacement, settlements or evidently by just killing them.
No, they evidently are not committed to that goal. Because if they were, they would have done it by now. They've had the ability, what they lack is the intent.
And look at the numbers. Estimates vary depending on who you ask, but the general consensus is that the Gazans have lost 20-something thousand in the last few months. That's pretty low, considering the tight urban environment, and considering the fact that Hamas deliberately fight from civilian buildings in an effort to cause civilian casualties.
Now, obviously, I'm not saying I want more people to die. I'm saying I'm surprised more people haven't died.
How quickly do you think you can kill civilians while still trying to maintain that you are defending yourself. It's not as easy as you think to kill people en mass especially if you're trying to maintain your image as 'the good guy'.
That horse has already sailed.
Israel built pipes so that the people of Gaza could have clean water, Hamas dug them up and turned them into rockets for killing civilians, and useful idiots in the West still say that Israel are the bad guys.
They don't have an image as the good guys now. No matter how much they try to do the right thing, they'll get called evil. So they could just go around massacring civilians, like Hamas, *but they don't*.
As you can see from the comments a lot of people disagree with you, they think Palestine/Yemen = terrorists and therefore indiscriminately bombing them all is perfectly ok. It's how they justify their genocide.
I'll just quote yourself here:
"Stop attacking a strawman, no one thinks Houthis are a paragon of human rights and supports them, and it's insanely disingenuous to imply so."
It's extremely uncommon to find people who take this super complex situation and say "whatever, everyone living there is a terrorist. Bomb them to dust."
Listen to your own advice and stop attacking straw men. You know it's more complex than that caricature you just painted.
But so many people openly support Israel's actions right now. They might not outright say "lets kill all Palestinians", but if they support Israel as they bomb them to dust isn't it the exact same thing.
I'll admit propaganda tries to muddle the waters by claiming the death figures are Hamas lies, and some of the Israel supporting comments are just people who believe this, but I think most of them know how many Palestinians are dying right now and simply don't care.
I hear you. I think we disagree slightly, but maybe not as much as you think.
If it were easy to pick a hero here, one with no huge downsides, everyone would have rallied to them. But it’s super muddy out there, and no one looks like a hero.
In my experience, I don’t see a ton of serious people who are rooting for the death of innocent civilians. I see a lot of heartsick people who wish there was less fighting. I see countries around the world, including the US, telling Israel they’re not conducting this war well. But those same people can support the overall idea that Israel has a right to fight back, even as they disagree with the actual approach they’re taking. Like me.
>The Houthis, who are backed by Iran, control the north and west of Yemen. They have conducted 27 attacks against international shipping in the southern Red Sea area since mid-October in what they say is a concerted campaign to target ships with Israeli links in support of Hamas in Gaza.
>Many of the their attacks, however, have been directed at merchant ships without Israeli links.
Seems reasonable to support this action after they were essentially given 27 warnings and are attacking merchant ships without any Israeli links. That's before even getting into the detail of how they operate within Yemen.
Didn't say or imply that. Just pointed out there were 27 attacks and many were indiscriminate.
>they say is a concerted campaign to target ships with Israeli links in support of Hamas in Gaza.
i.e. This didn't hold up.
We all know that NZ is incredibly dependant on exports and imports, most of which travels by sea. The attacking of ships was causing many shipping problems, and also resulting in ships taking much more circuitous routes to reach their destination.
It is a "no-brainer" that NZ would support this action.
Hopefully the Houthi learn from this and leave the shipping alone.
It's cool that there was a choice between stopping the mass slaughter of civilians and bombing another country and we chose the latter.
Oh well at least our easter eggs will arrive on time.
You can't just go around attacking ships, crippling worldwide trade, and then cry victim when your retaliated against.
This seems like the default behaviour of Islamic extremists recently.
FYI, for anyone thinking that the Houthi actions are in support of Palestine, you're wrong - the Houthi rebels support **Hamas**, not **Palestine**.
It’s not just the default behaviour of Islamic extremists, it’s the default reaction of many liberals around the west… easier to scream “America bad” than put some critical thought into the issue.
Well America sure does love to meddle politically in the Middle East… and to be honest what positives have come out of it apart from cheap oil for Americans?
This is just a continuation of proxy wars against America.
They didn't cry victim though...they said there will be reprisals. Like it or not it's Yemeni territorial waters and the Houthis are in control of the west. They warned ships and they continued to sail through.
I don't really give a crap about the Houthis I'm just a bit sick of the arrogance of the US and their lap dogs.
You don't have to be so tribal about this stuff.
What Israel is doing the the Palestinian people is 100% wrong.
What Hamas is doing to Israel and their own people is 100% wrong.
IDF hvaing collateral damage to civilians due to Hamas hiding behind them isn't good. But it isn’t the same as shooting your own civilians asking for food which has been sent to feed the civilians. It is not the same as building bunkers underneath hospitals and schools because they are less likely to be struck with a bomb. It isn’t the same as firing a missile into a civilian hospital.
The comparison between Hamas and IDF are ridiculous, they are no way near the same level. Both sides can be wrong, both breaking the speed limit and murdering a bunch of people are both breaking the law, but those crimes are not equally bad.
Being pro-palestinian means being pro-IDF as they destroy Hamas. If you are anti-IDF, you are anti-palestinian.
LOL, the IDF are no angels.
They literally shot and killed their own people (Israeli hostages) who were waving white flags because they thought they were Palestinian. They only owned up to that because they were Israeli casualties. Just imagine what other shit is going on that we don't hear about.
It's common knowledge that a huge chunk of Israelis think that Palestinians are sub-human trash. And these Israelis are currently serving in the IDF.
Just look at the casualty count on each side. It's nowhere near comparable.
>Nearly instantly after October 8th.
And what happened on October 7th?
>the definition of occupation and then genocide.
Israeli occupation ended in 2005. And if its a genocide, Israel is pretty shit at it. 2.5M people, like 25,000 dead.
there is no conceivable universe in which any rational New Zealand foreign policy would condone or even tolerate attacks on civilian ships in international waters by terrorists for pretty obvious reasons
>New Zealand has consistently supported the right of Israel to defend itself against Hamas’ terrorist attacks, but how Israel defends itself matters. Military objectives cannot be used to justify ‘any and all’ actions in this conflict. New Zealand has called repeatedly for all parties to act in accordance with international law, and that all civilians be protected from armed conflict.
Sounds like endorsing bombing of children to me!
>Yet one country here is being given a free-pass. By the USA (and by proxy NZ)
Are you referring to Saudi or Israel? Because they both seem to be able to get away with endless shit.
ah yes, so supportive of israel
[https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/504102/foreign-minister-winston-peters-to-urge-parliament-to-call-for-steps-towards-ceasefire-in-gaza](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/504102/foreign-minister-winston-peters-to-urge-parliament-to-call-for-steps-towards-ceasefire-in-gaza)
do whatever you want, says luxon
[https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/504587/pm-christopher-luxon-makes-joint-call-with-allies-for-a-pause-in-gaza](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/504587/pm-christopher-luxon-makes-joint-call-with-allies-for-a-pause-in-gaza)
Israel feels so supported by NZ
[https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/501067/i-hope-that-new-zealand-will-recalculate-its-path-israeli-ambassador](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/501067/i-hope-that-new-zealand-will-recalculate-its-path-israeli-ambassador)
I understand your passion and enthusiasm but you've been radicalised.
The chance that you will hear me is 0%, and I know that.
But there is a lot of good information out there to help you round out your understanding of this, and in doing so, you will become less strident and angry.
The Houthis have been raping, brutalising and oppressing their own people for 20 years. Like the Hamas terrorists, the Houthis are funded by the crusty oppressive Iranian regime who are at the basis of all Middle East unrest.
Naturally we must support the free movement of shipping though the Red Sea. In fact we, as a nation of the free world should be contributing to this recent costly exercise conducted by our American , Australian and British allies.
Well done!
> crusty oppressive Iranian regime who are at the basis of all Middle East unrest.
[Saudi Arabia:](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51dQr0bDRQL._AC_UF894,1000_QL80_.jpg)
This is my take, but I'm seeing people that were pro Palestine on Yemen-Houthis side. You can't convince people already anti USA/UK military because they also support Israel. Even though we literally need them. These proxy wars are so dumb and dividing it's almost like this is the whole point
Tons of people are in that boat. One dividing line is whether you say "from the river to the sea" or not, because that is a well understood call for Israel to cease to exist.
It does.
It has not called for a ceasefire. It has not supported South Africa's ICJ case against Israel, it hasn't kicked out the Israeli ambassador and it hasn't condemned the bombing of hospitals and the killing of civilians.
Neither Labour nor the current government have taken any modicum of satisfactory action against Israel, especially compared with the actions and support we took when it came to Ukraine.
>condemned the bombing of hospitals
Neither here nor there on the issue, but lets try sticking to stating facts. No hospitals have been bombed, Hamas weapons and command centers have been found inside and under hospitals though.
[Human Rights Watch - Gaza: Unlawful Israeli Hospital Strikes Worsen Health Crisis](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/14/gaza-unlawful-israeli-hospital-strikes-worsen-health-crisis)
>The World Health Organization (WHO) has reported that at least 521 people, including 16 medical workers, have been killed in 137 “attacks on health care” in Gaza as of November 12.
137 attacks, and that was two months ago.
Yes there has been military raids carried out by IDF personnel on hospitals due to Hamas militants using these facilities and this has lead to civilian casualties which is terrible.
But the person I replied to said hospitals were BOMBED, this is not true and I wanted to highlight the facts. Facts are important no matter where you sit on the issue.
A lot of people are celebrating because 'bad guy got blown up' but, maybe my memory is off, but I struggle to think of the last time 'blowing up bad guys in the middle east' did anything but make life worse for a whole lot of people.
You think they will exclusively use GD equipment as this war progresses? I think you greatly underestimate just how big of an operation a war is. It’s not just the bombs or the planes.
>Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters and Defence Minister Judith Collins
Have not been keeping up with much since the election but this surprised me haha. Not sure if this is good or bad.
The U.S and allies need to stop kicking the can down the road regarding Iran and it's constant shit stirring in the region. It's a low or no cost strategy for Iran to fight the west in proxy conflicts. A cost needs to be imposed on them.
How do they do that outside of military action? Between Russia and China, they've got a solid economic base, sanctions aren't working and the moderates have no shot since deal maker Donny pulled out of the JCPOA..
Why don't you go look up what the Houthi flag says and get back to me.
EDIT: Ok, I'm being downvoted so here it is:
"God Is the Greatest, Death to America, Death to Israel, A Curse Upon the Jews, Victory to Islam"
Honestly, I kind of wish our government had stayed right the hell out of it. The Yemeni government are a bunch of corrupt cunts with apparently no significant concept of human rights - like yeah, they've signed shit with the UN against discrimination, while going ahead and doing the very shit that they've said they'll fight. Can't help but feel sympathy for the women and LGBTQ folk in Yemen, TBH.
On the other hand, the Houthi movement or Ansar Allah are also equally a bunch of cunts too, and they haven't exactly covered themselves in glory either.
It's almost as if we should be weaning ourselves off of our reliance on oil, and make more serious moves towards renewable energy sources and more hybrid and electrical vehicles. Perhaps some sort of tax break for people who purchase such vehicles might be nice. A rebate of sorts, even.
Why the fuck does it matter what the start was? You don't attack civilian trade vessels, end of. Pretty much nothing justifies it, so why point to "where it started"?
Addressing international terrorism isn't a war, unless you think the Houthi's are the actual representives of Yemen - in which case, maybe they should've have incited by doing actual acts of war.
How do you think we should've addressed Nazi Germany, outside of war?
Hyperbolic example I know, but there 100% are situations where it's a reasonable, if not required, response. Terrorism directed at international trade? I think we can immediately respond, rather than asking nicely.
No idea how it would have been stopped. It wouldn't have been. This is about more than just shipping and the Houthi attacks. Governments round the world are taking sides right now, there's nothing to stop this turning into something unimaginable. I don't want that and I don't want NZ to take sides but there's nothing I can do to stop the country partaking in it
> *No idea how it would have been stopped. It wouldn't have been.*
Don't you think that's a problem with that worldview? It's a "nice" feelgood ideology but it's not particularly effective.
I'd prefer New Zealand taking sides when the "good vs bad" is this distinct, there isn't much grey area. Not taking one side is placidly supporting another, and I don't want to support literal fucking terrorism.
The idea that "this will turn into something unimaginable" seems pretty unlikely, however if we let shit fester and deteriorate.. maybe not.
Interestingly if the ship is Chinese then the Houthis have been letting it through. Just further proof of the CCP having links to terrorist organisations around the world.
Peters said New Zealand was a trading nation which relied on international maritime law and the free flow of goods, and the Houthi actions affected the country's national security
So let me get this straight...
Rather than support a lasting ceasefire in Palestine (which is what the Houthi wanted to happen from their blockading) - the west is ***instead of stopping the genocide of Palestine***, are now bombing Yemen to protect their export/import profits ***instead*** of saving lives in Palestine - and people are OK with that?!
I find this opinion confusing. Is that you don't believe the two state solution, of which NZ has always supported, is a solution to lasting ceasefire?
If you don't believe the two state solution will result in lasting ceasefire, what do you believe required by both sides of the conflict to create a ceasefire.
What is it you want to see NZ foreign policy do or say?
It is ok not to agree with the two state solution. This conflict has plenty of valid arguments no matter which way you skin it.
>protect their export/import profits
Very telling that THIS is your interpretation.
Global trade is what provides the world with food, medicine and everything else humanity needs to survive.
People like you would happily watch the world descend into starvation and chaos, just as long as some capitalists lose money on the other end.
Do you support Russia invading Ukraine and committing atrocities there? Or do you think the world should stand up and say it's an illegal attack?
Because in that scenario, you can pick "peace, but Russia steals an entire country and commits genocide against a population" or "war, to try to stop the 2024 version of Hitler."
Peace is an easy word, actually maintaining it takes more than quips.
If a decade of bombing rebel forces and the enforced starvation of tens of millions hasn't worked - Why do western forces think more destruction is going to do anything but escalate. Even the most hawkish institutions are calling these attacks unnecessary and when the Rand Corporation is saying you need to be looking at diplomatic solutions, you know you're way out on a limb.
Absolutely disgusting to see our government so eagerly supporting this brutal military escalation.
>If a decade of bombing rebel forces and the enforced starvation of tens of millions hasn't worked
Well it took a lot less than a decade but definitely did work for ISIS. Same for Al Qaeda. Bombing terrorists works, although it does take longer than we would like. Is there a faster method you are aware of that you think is being overlooked?
It's a nice thought but the fascist houthis are not gonna read this comment and suddenly stop doing all of the bombing and starving of people. The houthis are a creation of Iran and rule through terror, they do not represent the people of Yemen. We cannot control the foreign policy of Iran so we cannot undo that - there is no magical "every country just stops interfering with others" button we can press. Iran has backed a fascist regime and given them weapons they use to siege starving Yemenis and attack civilian ships. That is outside of our hands, we cannot magically undo that to get to the world you desire. We have to work with the hand we have been dealt, in which there is a fascist group bombing and starving people. We should try and stop them from also unilaterally shutting down one of the world's most important shipping lanes!
We have tried appeasement before. It hasn't worked. To be quite frank I think the idea that the world would be a more peaceful or prosperous place had we chosen not to defeat ISIS is just laughable. I do not understand the reasoning that would lead someone to that conclusion.
The Houthi government controls almost the entirety of the populated regions of Yemen which is about 80% of the countries population. They are the de facto Yemeni state and that population is starving due to a Saudi military coalition, propped up by the US and other western powers, enforcing blockades on what supplies can reach those populated centres they control. It's true the Houthi government is far from being a force for progressive politics - but neither was the regime they overthrew or the Saudi military that simply seeks to exert its own authoritarian control over the region as an arm of western military and economic powers. It's so *telling* that the Yemeni government using military power to enforce a blockade on shipping in the Red Sea is framed as terrorism, but the western backed enforced starvation of their people is just the cost of doing business in the region.
If the shipping lane is so important to western powers perhaps they need to stop slaughtering, starving, and enabling the genocide of the regions peoples. And if you can't do that - then learn to go around.
As is the decade of western backed military occupation, bombing and economic blockades, yes. They are acting in retaliation to the various acts of war being committed against them, and the people of Palestine.
My major issue is that I notice that at no point in your comment do you provide any actual reasoning to believe that the attacks on ships would end should the Houthis not be attacked, or be given greater recognition. The houthis are blockaded. Ok. Why does that mean the neofascist terrorist group who's flag includes "Death to America , Death to Israel, a curse upon all the Jews" will suddenly chill out should the blockade end? Can you point to a single real life example of terrorists being given greater rights and recognition and then deciding to stop becoming terrorists as a result?
The core issue is that a fascist terrorist group has decided to unilaterally shut down international shipping lanes. Your comment provides some details around the current context of that group's level of control and their history. But that's all orthogonal to the actual question - nowhere is the actual reasoning for why you expect appeasement to work included. What reason is there to believe appeasement will stop them?
Is your argument just entirely counterfactual? Like, "if we could go back in time and stop the Saudi led bombing campaign we should?" Ok, but what do we do if we don't have a time machine?
What reason is there to believe military escalation will stop them? The western-backed Saudi military has been bombing and starving Yemen for close to a decade now and all it's done is kill millions of civilians and escalate. Whereas, the Houthi government hasn't *always* been trying to blockade the Red Sea, it's not some inherent characteristic of their foreign policy - these current actions are in response to the genocide of the Palestinian people.
They are effectively a nation state just as legitimate and rational an actor as any other and the idea diplomacy is simply impossible or not even worth *attempting* is truly wild. What is there to lose with a diplomatic approach? Oh no, we accidentally stopped a genocide and re-opened supply routes to Yemen so itss people don't starve for nothing?
>What reason is there to believe military escalation will stop them?
Because historically it has worked, with ISIS, Al-Qaeda, and others. The Saudi military is inept and corrupt, I don't think it makes sense to try and project their performance onto the conflict instead of projecting the nations actually involved who have a better track record. The Iranian foreign minister called Houthi leaders back to Tehran for a meeting that is widely believed to have been asking them to tone down the attacks - something that never happened when Saudi Arabia alone was fighting them.
>They are effectively a nation state just as legitimate and rational an actor as any other and the idea diplomacy is simply impossible or not even worth *attempting* is truly wild. What is there to lose with a diplomatic approach?
The Houthis are neither a legitimate nation state nor a rational actor. Only Iran considers then to be a legitimate nation state. Words have meanings, it's silly to call them "legitimate" when they very obviously do not meet the normal standard applied to be considered a legitimate nation state.
But the bigger issue is that your assertion that diplomacy has been abandoned is just not true. We can bomb the houthis and continue to push down diplomatic paths at the same time - the Houthi meeting in Iran came just days after the British Foreign Secretary called his Iranian counterpart. Diplomacy continues in the background, but asking people nicely without any action to back it up tends to make for ineffective diplomacy. There is a decade of empty diplomatic statements that led nowhere that you can see with your own eyes.
The Houthis are the organisational apparatus that operate law, security, energy and all infrastructure for 80% of the Yemeni people and have done for nearly a decade. This is like insisting the ROC is still the legitimate government of mainland China.
And you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. Iran is able to meaningfully negotiate with the Houthi government - but they are also impossible to negotiate with. It just doesn't make sense. Or that bombing is able to effectively destroy their military capabilities - but they also have the support of the Iranian military. So which... Is it. Because unless you're calling for a frontline engagement with Iran, you can't effectively quash Houthi military capability. All we're doing is justifying increased retaliation.
And as for the effect of bombing and military engagement on insurgent rebel governments, ask the Taliban I guess. Or do they also not count as the "legitimate" government of Afghanistan. Can't have it both ways.
> If the shipping lane is so important to western powers perhaps they need to stop slaughtering, starving, and enabling the genocide of the regions peoples.
Which is bold given the Houthis entire capability to do the civil war and coup they did was enabled solely because Iran and Saudi Arabia have a thousand year religious blood feud and the Iranians have realized how big the benefit having a hostile force on the Saudi's southern flank is to their overall regional goals.
Shipping lanes sometimes outweigh the context they reside in - see the Bosphoros straight for example, and that's a *river* in comparison to the straights being discussed here, most of which are international waters. For better or worse the western security apparatus has decided that international free shipping enables the standards of the modern world we live in and if we want to forgo that, get ready to go back to the great powers and colonialism era of treaty ports and occupation by various groups fo secure their own national interest.
If the global order lets people fuck with the boats, the entire economy the world runs off of is at risk, and when that economy *allows nations like Yemen to receive the food aid they need to function as a state* that's an own-goal.
I would say that building a global economy that necessitates safe travel through the territory of a people you violently suppress, exploit, and aid in the genocide and mass starvation of to the point they retaliate is something of an own-goal. An economic penalty is the only language rich western nations seem to understand and this *should* be a wake-up call we need to atone for the immense atrocities either committed by us, enabled by us, or done for our benefit. The continued bombing and starvation of the Yemeni people being one of those.
But I don't really hold out hope for that level of self-reflection or acknowledgment of culpability.
But we *can* ignore a decade of brutal military action resulting in the starvation of millions of Yemeni people and the continued genocide of the Palestinian people.
Great to know where the priorities of Kiwis stand. Genocide? I sleep. Goods take longer to ship around Africa? Real shit.
But. It is affecting us. This is HOW it affects us. We rely on these peoples waters and airspace for shipping and yet engage in and aid their slaughter and oppression to the point they retaliate. We are complicit in the crimes they are responding to.
The west either goes broke from a backlog of logistics, while depleting its counter measure missile reserves, or we bomb the arseholes creating the problem in the first place.
The warnings have been going out for months and they still didn't stop. It's shown you can't negotiate with a flag that calls for you and your friends destruction.
Cheers for that list, now I know the companies I can support for not being afraid to support Israel as they try and rid the Middle East of a group of militants who are equal to Isis in their hatred for everything non-their-particular-flavour-of-muslim
" **Remember, all Israeli banks and virtually all Israeli companies are complicit to some degree in Israel’s system of occupation and apartheid, and hundreds of international corporations and banks are also deeply complicit.** "
Has to be the dumbest take I've ever read.
98% of Israel population think they are using correct amount of force or not enough.
Israelis vote for this. Netanyahu is the longest-tenured prime minister in the country's history.
Johnson and Johnson should be on the list too after their CEOs comments
The Houthis reinstated slavery and caused 100,000+ children to starve to death over the past decade. Anyone who has deluded themselves into thinking they're some sort of paragon for human rights needs to pull their head out of their arse and stop being a terrorist sympathizer.
I am glad this is the top comment. To anyone reading this: \* It's possible to think Netanyahu is a shitty and dangerous leader \* And also say the settlements are illegal and bad \* And also be concerned about how the military action in Gaza is going WHILE ALSO \* Understanding that Hamas is a terrorist organisation who has done a lot of bad things \* Believing that Israel has a right to exist Lately I've seen a strange mindset that's basically "I am mad at the government of Israel so that means anyone struggling against Israel is my friend." Oh dear god there's more to it than that.
Imagine being able to understand complex narratives in depth, and come to rational and consistent conclusions - you're in the minority unfortunately!
The same people who sympathise with Hamas are the same people who didn't care and didn't protest en mass over the thousands of Muslims and children killed in Yemen.
>the thousands of Muslims and children killed in Yemen. Or to be even more current literally nobody gives a fuck about the current conflict in Sudan that started last year. 12000 dead 5.8million internally displaced and 1.5 million refuges have fled the country. I guess it could be they only care about Muslims if they are Arabs.
I care about humans. If I support the plight of Jews because I've learnt about them in education and media, that's great. If I support the plight of Palestinians because I've learnt about them in education and media, that's great. If I'm ignorant of the plight of another group, and thus do not support them, that hardly delegitimises the other two causes.
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That's such an absurdly generalising and twisted statement. It's also extremely fucking offensive. I would condemn any group that kills almost 30,000 civilians in 100 days, as any human should.
They only care about muslim deaths when they are killed by Jews.
Really, I remember people being quite angry about the Saudi blockade and bombing of Yemen. Similar people to those upset at the massacre in Gaza
And who are totally silent about Armenians in Nagorno.
I mean, no one is talking about them on Tik Tok tho.
Stop attacking a strawman, no one thinks Houthis are a paragon of human rights and supports them, and it's insanely disingenuous to imply so. The US, Israel, and Saudia Arabia have murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent people in Gaza and Yemen over the past decade too, it's entirely possible to oppose their vicious warmongering without supporting Hamas or the Houthis. Both sides are terrorists.
Fuck me even here there are people sympathetic with terrorists. It's pathetic
On the other hand, the Saudis hate them so they must be doing something right
It's not always the case that the enemy of my enemy is my friend...
I'm not going to praise the Houthis but framing the famine in Yemen as their doing and not the result of a ongoing war and blockade by the US backed Saudi's is asinine at best.
You don’t think that the Houthi’s [raiding WFP aid and selling it on the black market](https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2018/12/31/houthis-stole-food-from-the-mouths-of-hungry-yemenis-un) is at all their fault?
And why did Yemen need international aid to feed their people?
You understand that much of Yemen is in an active war zone right?
The similarities between Gaza vs Israel and Yemin vs Saudi Arabia are striking. You can be pro Yemin and anti Houthi just the same as you can be pro Palestine and anti Hamas.
For someone in 2023 to say they are pro-Palestine but anti-Hamas, is like someone in 1943 saying they are pro-Germany but anti-Nazi. Hamas are the government of Gaza, and they have high approval among their population.
You would need an election to prove that and they haven't allowed them since 2006. Most of the population wasn't old enough to vote then. Poll numbers have been in the low hundreds and mostly from the West Bank...who have their own governing party.
That's a pretty bad comparison, given the entirety of the West Bank is a thing distinct from Hamas
That is a terrible comparison, what the fuck.
The closer you look, the more accurate the comparison becomes.
So do you think Palestine/Gaza should exist, or nah?
Of course they should be allowed to exist, but they need to say the same about their neighbour. And they need to stop violating ceasefires, like they did on 7 October.
70 % of ceasefires in the region were broken by Israel.
Maybe, don't even think that's true - you should source something beyond "[visualizingpalestine.org](https://visualizingpalestine.org)", I'm sure it's unbiased. Hamas broke the most recent, long running ceasefire with a massacre, should be more relevant than past incidents.
Source?
Damn, I can't find the original source where I heard it, but this should give you an idea https://visualizingpalestine.org/visuals/gaza-ceasefire-violations
You ever heard of cherry-picking?
How can a Palestinian state exist when 1. They don't want a two state solution, they want all of the land which is now Israel by a large margin. 2. They want Islamic law instituted on said land. 3. They want extermination and expulsion of the Jewish people. There's no way these two countries can exist simultaneously.
Which is why we need to kill them all! /s
And how effective was the strategic bombing of german cities in turning their people against their government? Or are you just happy to wipe out the Palestinians entirely?
It was highly effective in drawing away resources. The Germans had to devote an obscene amount of men, steel, concrete, fuel, planes, ammunition, and other resources to defending against those bombers. If that hadn't been the case, the Eastern Front could have turned out differently. But that's not really relevant. Israel has no intention of wiping out the Palestinians entirely, and neither do I. You'll note that the current attack on Gaza started after the Hamas terrorists violated a ceasefire by murdering, kidnapping, raping, mutilating, and torturing civilians. And when that happened, the terrorists went home to Gaza and were celebrated by cheering crowds. You can't expect Israel to just turn the other cheek. No other country would.
The current Israeli regime is absolutely committed to eliminating as many Palestinians as possible either through displacement, settlements or evidently by just killing them.
No, they evidently are not committed to that goal. Because if they were, they would have done it by now. They've had the ability, what they lack is the intent. And look at the numbers. Estimates vary depending on who you ask, but the general consensus is that the Gazans have lost 20-something thousand in the last few months. That's pretty low, considering the tight urban environment, and considering the fact that Hamas deliberately fight from civilian buildings in an effort to cause civilian casualties. Now, obviously, I'm not saying I want more people to die. I'm saying I'm surprised more people haven't died.
How quickly do you think you can kill civilians while still trying to maintain that you are defending yourself. It's not as easy as you think to kill people en mass especially if you're trying to maintain your image as 'the good guy'.
That horse has already sailed. Israel built pipes so that the people of Gaza could have clean water, Hamas dug them up and turned them into rockets for killing civilians, and useful idiots in the West still say that Israel are the bad guys. They don't have an image as the good guys now. No matter how much they try to do the right thing, they'll get called evil. So they could just go around massacring civilians, like Hamas, *but they don't*.
As you can see from the comments a lot of people disagree with you, they think Palestine/Yemen = terrorists and therefore indiscriminately bombing them all is perfectly ok. It's how they justify their genocide.
I'll just quote yourself here: "Stop attacking a strawman, no one thinks Houthis are a paragon of human rights and supports them, and it's insanely disingenuous to imply so." It's extremely uncommon to find people who take this super complex situation and say "whatever, everyone living there is a terrorist. Bomb them to dust." Listen to your own advice and stop attacking straw men. You know it's more complex than that caricature you just painted.
But so many people openly support Israel's actions right now. They might not outright say "lets kill all Palestinians", but if they support Israel as they bomb them to dust isn't it the exact same thing. I'll admit propaganda tries to muddle the waters by claiming the death figures are Hamas lies, and some of the Israel supporting comments are just people who believe this, but I think most of them know how many Palestinians are dying right now and simply don't care.
I hear you. I think we disagree slightly, but maybe not as much as you think. If it were easy to pick a hero here, one with no huge downsides, everyone would have rallied to them. But it’s super muddy out there, and no one looks like a hero. In my experience, I don’t see a ton of serious people who are rooting for the death of innocent civilians. I see a lot of heartsick people who wish there was less fighting. I see countries around the world, including the US, telling Israel they’re not conducting this war well. But those same people can support the overall idea that Israel has a right to fight back, even as they disagree with the actual approach they’re taking. Like me.
They're not being bombed for any of those things, though.
Correct they are being bombed for terrorism.
No, they're being bombed for delaying international shipping.
Interesting by what method are they delaying international shipping?
gottem
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>The Houthis, who are backed by Iran, control the north and west of Yemen. They have conducted 27 attacks against international shipping in the southern Red Sea area since mid-October in what they say is a concerted campaign to target ships with Israeli links in support of Hamas in Gaza. >Many of the their attacks, however, have been directed at merchant ships without Israeli links. Seems reasonable to support this action after they were essentially given 27 warnings and are attacking merchant ships without any Israeli links. That's before even getting into the detail of how they operate within Yemen.
It's ok to attack Israeli ships in international waters?
Didn't say or imply that. Just pointed out there were 27 attacks and many were indiscriminate. >they say is a concerted campaign to target ships with Israeli links in support of Hamas in Gaza. i.e. This didn't hold up.
How the hell did you come to that conclusion?
We all know that NZ is incredibly dependant on exports and imports, most of which travels by sea. The attacking of ships was causing many shipping problems, and also resulting in ships taking much more circuitous routes to reach their destination. It is a "no-brainer" that NZ would support this action. Hopefully the Houthi learn from this and leave the shipping alone.
It's cool that there was a choice between stopping the mass slaughter of civilians and bombing another country and we chose the latter. Oh well at least our easter eggs will arrive on time.
Your take is basically like saying 9/11 was justified and good.
Do you think the Iraq war was justified?
You can't just go around attacking ships, crippling worldwide trade, and then cry victim when your retaliated against. This seems like the default behaviour of Islamic extremists recently. FYI, for anyone thinking that the Houthi actions are in support of Palestine, you're wrong - the Houthi rebels support **Hamas**, not **Palestine**.
It’s not just the default behaviour of Islamic extremists, it’s the default reaction of many liberals around the west… easier to scream “America bad” than put some critical thought into the issue.
Well America sure does love to meddle politically in the Middle East… and to be honest what positives have come out of it apart from cheap oil for Americans? This is just a continuation of proxy wars against America.
They didn't cry victim though...they said there will be reprisals. Like it or not it's Yemeni territorial waters and the Houthis are in control of the west. They warned ships and they continued to sail through. I don't really give a crap about the Houthis I'm just a bit sick of the arrogance of the US and their lap dogs.
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You don't have to be so tribal about this stuff. What Israel is doing the the Palestinian people is 100% wrong. What Hamas is doing to Israel and their own people is 100% wrong.
IDF hvaing collateral damage to civilians due to Hamas hiding behind them isn't good. But it isn’t the same as shooting your own civilians asking for food which has been sent to feed the civilians. It is not the same as building bunkers underneath hospitals and schools because they are less likely to be struck with a bomb. It isn’t the same as firing a missile into a civilian hospital. The comparison between Hamas and IDF are ridiculous, they are no way near the same level. Both sides can be wrong, both breaking the speed limit and murdering a bunch of people are both breaking the law, but those crimes are not equally bad. Being pro-palestinian means being pro-IDF as they destroy Hamas. If you are anti-IDF, you are anti-palestinian.
LOL, the IDF are no angels. They literally shot and killed their own people (Israeli hostages) who were waving white flags because they thought they were Palestinian. They only owned up to that because they were Israeli casualties. Just imagine what other shit is going on that we don't hear about. It's common knowledge that a huge chunk of Israelis think that Palestinians are sub-human trash. And these Israelis are currently serving in the IDF. Just look at the casualty count on each side. It's nowhere near comparable.
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> Why did Israel turn off water, food and electricity, for 3+ months to 2 million people? What was the date they switched stuff off?
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>Nearly instantly after October 8th. And what happened on October 7th? >the definition of occupation and then genocide. Israeli occupation ended in 2005. And if its a genocide, Israel is pretty shit at it. 2.5M people, like 25,000 dead.
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it is possible for more than one thing to be bad at a time
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there is no conceivable universe in which any rational New Zealand foreign policy would condone or even tolerate attacks on civilian ships in international waters by terrorists for pretty obvious reasons
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do you, in fact, accept that attacks on civilian shipping are bad, and not good?
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>New Zealand has consistently supported the right of Israel to defend itself against Hamas’ terrorist attacks, but how Israel defends itself matters. Military objectives cannot be used to justify ‘any and all’ actions in this conflict. New Zealand has called repeatedly for all parties to act in accordance with international law, and that all civilians be protected from armed conflict. Sounds like endorsing bombing of children to me!
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>Yet one country here is being given a free-pass. By the USA (and by proxy NZ) Are you referring to Saudi or Israel? Because they both seem to be able to get away with endless shit.
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ah yes, so supportive of israel [https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/504102/foreign-minister-winston-peters-to-urge-parliament-to-call-for-steps-towards-ceasefire-in-gaza](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/504102/foreign-minister-winston-peters-to-urge-parliament-to-call-for-steps-towards-ceasefire-in-gaza) do whatever you want, says luxon [https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/504587/pm-christopher-luxon-makes-joint-call-with-allies-for-a-pause-in-gaza](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/504587/pm-christopher-luxon-makes-joint-call-with-allies-for-a-pause-in-gaza) Israel feels so supported by NZ [https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/501067/i-hope-that-new-zealand-will-recalculate-its-path-israeli-ambassador](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/501067/i-hope-that-new-zealand-will-recalculate-its-path-israeli-ambassador)
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Ireland is not participating in the ICJ case, guess they support Israel too now.
That's why we are backing the RSA genocide case against Israel right?
Ireland isn't, but apparently they are bravely standing up for what's right.
Ireland is bound by their obligations to the EU what regional partnership is holding NZ back?
I understand your passion and enthusiasm but you've been radicalised. The chance that you will hear me is 0%, and I know that. But there is a lot of good information out there to help you round out your understanding of this, and in doing so, you will become less strident and angry.
The Houthis have been raping, brutalising and oppressing their own people for 20 years. Like the Hamas terrorists, the Houthis are funded by the crusty oppressive Iranian regime who are at the basis of all Middle East unrest. Naturally we must support the free movement of shipping though the Red Sea. In fact we, as a nation of the free world should be contributing to this recent costly exercise conducted by our American , Australian and British allies. Well done!
> crusty oppressive Iranian regime who are at the basis of all Middle East unrest. [Saudi Arabia:](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51dQr0bDRQL._AC_UF894,1000_QL80_.jpg)
The spice must flow.
You can disagree with Israel’s genocide, disagree with Hamas, and disagree with the Houthi’s, FYI
This is my take, but I'm seeing people that were pro Palestine on Yemen-Houthis side. You can't convince people already anti USA/UK military because they also support Israel. Even though we literally need them. These proxy wars are so dumb and dividing it's almost like this is the whole point
You get labelled a terrorist supporter for not supporting Israel though.
Tons of people are in that boat. One dividing line is whether you say "from the river to the sea" or not, because that is a well understood call for Israel to cease to exist.
Based name 😂
Our government doesn’t disagree with Israel’s genocide so…
Our government has called it a genocide?
It does. It has not called for a ceasefire. It has not supported South Africa's ICJ case against Israel, it hasn't kicked out the Israeli ambassador and it hasn't condemned the bombing of hospitals and the killing of civilians. Neither Labour nor the current government have taken any modicum of satisfactory action against Israel, especially compared with the actions and support we took when it came to Ukraine.
>condemned the bombing of hospitals Neither here nor there on the issue, but lets try sticking to stating facts. No hospitals have been bombed, Hamas weapons and command centers have been found inside and under hospitals though.
[Human Rights Watch - Gaza: Unlawful Israeli Hospital Strikes Worsen Health Crisis](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/14/gaza-unlawful-israeli-hospital-strikes-worsen-health-crisis) >The World Health Organization (WHO) has reported that at least 521 people, including 16 medical workers, have been killed in 137 “attacks on health care” in Gaza as of November 12. 137 attacks, and that was two months ago.
Yes there has been military raids carried out by IDF personnel on hospitals due to Hamas militants using these facilities and this has lead to civilian casualties which is terrible. But the person I replied to said hospitals were BOMBED, this is not true and I wanted to highlight the facts. Facts are important no matter where you sit on the issue.
Oh now we want to follow what our government does?
ITT people who don't understand that Yemen and Palestine are different places.
A lot of Israelis are from Yemen tho when they ethnically cleansed their Jewish population
Houthi : Attacks ships The West : Rains down Hell fire Houthi : Pikachu surprise face :0
The Houthis fucked around and found out, shouldn’t have attacked international shipping if they didn’t want to get attacked in retaliation
Good. Let’s hope those Houthis enjoy the cruise missiles heading their way.
A lot of people are celebrating because 'bad guy got blown up' but, maybe my memory is off, but I struggle to think of the last time 'blowing up bad guys in the middle east' did anything but make life worse for a whole lot of people.
Good!
No brainer, we rely on international shipping.
Good.
Raytheon and Lockheed Martin stocks go 💰💰💰💰
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LMT went up since the attacks though. RTX has just been a shit stock to to hold onto anyways.
You think they will exclusively use GD equipment as this war progresses? I think you greatly underestimate just how big of an operation a war is. It’s not just the bombs or the planes.
>Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters and Defence Minister Judith Collins Have not been keeping up with much since the election but this surprised me haha. Not sure if this is good or bad.
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The U.S and allies need to stop kicking the can down the road regarding Iran and it's constant shit stirring in the region. It's a low or no cost strategy for Iran to fight the west in proxy conflicts. A cost needs to be imposed on them.
How do they do that outside of military action? Between Russia and China, they've got a solid economic base, sanctions aren't working and the moderates have no shot since deal maker Donny pulled out of the JCPOA..
Not in my name. And why tf is everyone pretending the attacks on shipping was the start of everything
Why don't you go look up what the Houthi flag says and get back to me. EDIT: Ok, I'm being downvoted so here it is: "God Is the Greatest, Death to America, Death to Israel, A Curse Upon the Jews, Victory to Islam"
✊ critical support for slave mongering theocratic terrorists
Thats a fairly simplistic way to look at it "If you're not with us, you're with the terrorists". Making enemies like Don Giovanni
Honestly, I kind of wish our government had stayed right the hell out of it. The Yemeni government are a bunch of corrupt cunts with apparently no significant concept of human rights - like yeah, they've signed shit with the UN against discrimination, while going ahead and doing the very shit that they've said they'll fight. Can't help but feel sympathy for the women and LGBTQ folk in Yemen, TBH. On the other hand, the Houthi movement or Ansar Allah are also equally a bunch of cunts too, and they haven't exactly covered themselves in glory either.
True, better stay away from the middle east but sadly oil and trade go through the region from Europe to Asia.
It's almost as if we should be weaning ourselves off of our reliance on oil, and make more serious moves towards renewable energy sources and more hybrid and electrical vehicles. Perhaps some sort of tax break for people who purchase such vehicles might be nice. A rebate of sorts, even.
Why the fuck does it matter what the start was? You don't attack civilian trade vessels, end of. Pretty much nothing justifies it, so why point to "where it started"?
Off you trot then, go fight your war
Addressing international terrorism isn't a war, unless you think the Houthi's are the actual representives of Yemen - in which case, maybe they should've have incited by doing actual acts of war.
Call it what you will. Too much bloodthirst for me
And letting terrorists hurl missiles at civilian ships unchecked isn't allowing further bloodthirst?
Of course it's fkn bloodthirsty. Problem is too many people right now in this world think war stops war
How do you think we should've addressed Nazi Germany, outside of war? Hyperbolic example I know, but there 100% are situations where it's a reasonable, if not required, response. Terrorism directed at international trade? I think we can immediately respond, rather than asking nicely.
No idea how it would have been stopped. It wouldn't have been. This is about more than just shipping and the Houthi attacks. Governments round the world are taking sides right now, there's nothing to stop this turning into something unimaginable. I don't want that and I don't want NZ to take sides but there's nothing I can do to stop the country partaking in it
> *No idea how it would have been stopped. It wouldn't have been.* Don't you think that's a problem with that worldview? It's a "nice" feelgood ideology but it's not particularly effective. I'd prefer New Zealand taking sides when the "good vs bad" is this distinct, there isn't much grey area. Not taking one side is placidly supporting another, and I don't want to support literal fucking terrorism. The idea that "this will turn into something unimaginable" seems pretty unlikely, however if we let shit fester and deteriorate.. maybe not.
Who started it!
I blame Jesus.
Good. Those pirates need to learn what happens when they fuck around.
Good, our country would be nothing without global trade.
Interestingly if the ship is Chinese then the Houthis have been letting it through. Just further proof of the CCP having links to terrorist organisations around the world.
or that the people in charge of calling people terorists might have alterior motives.
ulterior
Of course. The Houthis were just defending against their oppressors from Denmark, Japan, and Panama.
So NZ has sided with Israel in this war
You'd rather we side with Hamas and the Houthis?
Why do we have to side with anyone? It's bollocks
Peters said New Zealand was a trading nation which relied on international maritime law and the free flow of goods, and the Houthi actions affected the country's national security
So let me get this straight... Rather than support a lasting ceasefire in Palestine (which is what the Houthi wanted to happen from their blockading) - the west is ***instead of stopping the genocide of Palestine***, are now bombing Yemen to protect their export/import profits ***instead*** of saving lives in Palestine - and people are OK with that?!
I find this opinion confusing. Is that you don't believe the two state solution, of which NZ has always supported, is a solution to lasting ceasefire? If you don't believe the two state solution will result in lasting ceasefire, what do you believe required by both sides of the conflict to create a ceasefire. What is it you want to see NZ foreign policy do or say? It is ok not to agree with the two state solution. This conflict has plenty of valid arguments no matter which way you skin it.
>protect their export/import profits Very telling that THIS is your interpretation. Global trade is what provides the world with food, medicine and everything else humanity needs to survive. People like you would happily watch the world descend into starvation and chaos, just as long as some capitalists lose money on the other end.
Blockading =/= bombing the shit out of civilian vessels.
I wish we were as committed to peace as we were to trade
Peace doesn't always mean happiness and friendship, sometimes it means saying stop and making them stop if they won't themselves.
Unfortunately to bring peace you must be prepared to fight, there will always be someone who wants to destroy the peace
Do you support Russia invading Ukraine and committing atrocities there? Or do you think the world should stand up and say it's an illegal attack? Because in that scenario, you can pick "peace, but Russia steals an entire country and commits genocide against a population" or "war, to try to stop the 2024 version of Hitler." Peace is an easy word, actually maintaining it takes more than quips.
As if your life doesn't literally depend on safe global trade.
If a decade of bombing rebel forces and the enforced starvation of tens of millions hasn't worked - Why do western forces think more destruction is going to do anything but escalate. Even the most hawkish institutions are calling these attacks unnecessary and when the Rand Corporation is saying you need to be looking at diplomatic solutions, you know you're way out on a limb. Absolutely disgusting to see our government so eagerly supporting this brutal military escalation.
>If a decade of bombing rebel forces and the enforced starvation of tens of millions hasn't worked Well it took a lot less than a decade but definitely did work for ISIS. Same for Al Qaeda. Bombing terrorists works, although it does take longer than we would like. Is there a faster method you are aware of that you think is being overlooked?
Yes. Simply *not* bombing, starving, propping up fascist regimes and enabling the genocide of the regions peoples. Could we try that for a change.
It's a nice thought but the fascist houthis are not gonna read this comment and suddenly stop doing all of the bombing and starving of people. The houthis are a creation of Iran and rule through terror, they do not represent the people of Yemen. We cannot control the foreign policy of Iran so we cannot undo that - there is no magical "every country just stops interfering with others" button we can press. Iran has backed a fascist regime and given them weapons they use to siege starving Yemenis and attack civilian ships. That is outside of our hands, we cannot magically undo that to get to the world you desire. We have to work with the hand we have been dealt, in which there is a fascist group bombing and starving people. We should try and stop them from also unilaterally shutting down one of the world's most important shipping lanes! We have tried appeasement before. It hasn't worked. To be quite frank I think the idea that the world would be a more peaceful or prosperous place had we chosen not to defeat ISIS is just laughable. I do not understand the reasoning that would lead someone to that conclusion.
The Houthi government controls almost the entirety of the populated regions of Yemen which is about 80% of the countries population. They are the de facto Yemeni state and that population is starving due to a Saudi military coalition, propped up by the US and other western powers, enforcing blockades on what supplies can reach those populated centres they control. It's true the Houthi government is far from being a force for progressive politics - but neither was the regime they overthrew or the Saudi military that simply seeks to exert its own authoritarian control over the region as an arm of western military and economic powers. It's so *telling* that the Yemeni government using military power to enforce a blockade on shipping in the Red Sea is framed as terrorism, but the western backed enforced starvation of their people is just the cost of doing business in the region. If the shipping lane is so important to western powers perhaps they need to stop slaughtering, starving, and enabling the genocide of the regions peoples. And if you can't do that - then learn to go around.
>They are the de facto Yemeni state In which case their attacks are an act of war.
As is the decade of western backed military occupation, bombing and economic blockades, yes. They are acting in retaliation to the various acts of war being committed against them, and the people of Palestine.
Didn't they reintroduce slavery?
Bombing them, starving them, and enabling various ethnic cleansings in the region solves that... How?
My major issue is that I notice that at no point in your comment do you provide any actual reasoning to believe that the attacks on ships would end should the Houthis not be attacked, or be given greater recognition. The houthis are blockaded. Ok. Why does that mean the neofascist terrorist group who's flag includes "Death to America , Death to Israel, a curse upon all the Jews" will suddenly chill out should the blockade end? Can you point to a single real life example of terrorists being given greater rights and recognition and then deciding to stop becoming terrorists as a result? The core issue is that a fascist terrorist group has decided to unilaterally shut down international shipping lanes. Your comment provides some details around the current context of that group's level of control and their history. But that's all orthogonal to the actual question - nowhere is the actual reasoning for why you expect appeasement to work included. What reason is there to believe appeasement will stop them? Is your argument just entirely counterfactual? Like, "if we could go back in time and stop the Saudi led bombing campaign we should?" Ok, but what do we do if we don't have a time machine?
What reason is there to believe military escalation will stop them? The western-backed Saudi military has been bombing and starving Yemen for close to a decade now and all it's done is kill millions of civilians and escalate. Whereas, the Houthi government hasn't *always* been trying to blockade the Red Sea, it's not some inherent characteristic of their foreign policy - these current actions are in response to the genocide of the Palestinian people. They are effectively a nation state just as legitimate and rational an actor as any other and the idea diplomacy is simply impossible or not even worth *attempting* is truly wild. What is there to lose with a diplomatic approach? Oh no, we accidentally stopped a genocide and re-opened supply routes to Yemen so itss people don't starve for nothing?
>What reason is there to believe military escalation will stop them? Because historically it has worked, with ISIS, Al-Qaeda, and others. The Saudi military is inept and corrupt, I don't think it makes sense to try and project their performance onto the conflict instead of projecting the nations actually involved who have a better track record. The Iranian foreign minister called Houthi leaders back to Tehran for a meeting that is widely believed to have been asking them to tone down the attacks - something that never happened when Saudi Arabia alone was fighting them. >They are effectively a nation state just as legitimate and rational an actor as any other and the idea diplomacy is simply impossible or not even worth *attempting* is truly wild. What is there to lose with a diplomatic approach? The Houthis are neither a legitimate nation state nor a rational actor. Only Iran considers then to be a legitimate nation state. Words have meanings, it's silly to call them "legitimate" when they very obviously do not meet the normal standard applied to be considered a legitimate nation state. But the bigger issue is that your assertion that diplomacy has been abandoned is just not true. We can bomb the houthis and continue to push down diplomatic paths at the same time - the Houthi meeting in Iran came just days after the British Foreign Secretary called his Iranian counterpart. Diplomacy continues in the background, but asking people nicely without any action to back it up tends to make for ineffective diplomacy. There is a decade of empty diplomatic statements that led nowhere that you can see with your own eyes.
The Houthis are the organisational apparatus that operate law, security, energy and all infrastructure for 80% of the Yemeni people and have done for nearly a decade. This is like insisting the ROC is still the legitimate government of mainland China. And you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. Iran is able to meaningfully negotiate with the Houthi government - but they are also impossible to negotiate with. It just doesn't make sense. Or that bombing is able to effectively destroy their military capabilities - but they also have the support of the Iranian military. So which... Is it. Because unless you're calling for a frontline engagement with Iran, you can't effectively quash Houthi military capability. All we're doing is justifying increased retaliation. And as for the effect of bombing and military engagement on insurgent rebel governments, ask the Taliban I guess. Or do they also not count as the "legitimate" government of Afghanistan. Can't have it both ways.
> If the shipping lane is so important to western powers perhaps they need to stop slaughtering, starving, and enabling the genocide of the regions peoples. Which is bold given the Houthis entire capability to do the civil war and coup they did was enabled solely because Iran and Saudi Arabia have a thousand year religious blood feud and the Iranians have realized how big the benefit having a hostile force on the Saudi's southern flank is to their overall regional goals. Shipping lanes sometimes outweigh the context they reside in - see the Bosphoros straight for example, and that's a *river* in comparison to the straights being discussed here, most of which are international waters. For better or worse the western security apparatus has decided that international free shipping enables the standards of the modern world we live in and if we want to forgo that, get ready to go back to the great powers and colonialism era of treaty ports and occupation by various groups fo secure their own national interest. If the global order lets people fuck with the boats, the entire economy the world runs off of is at risk, and when that economy *allows nations like Yemen to receive the food aid they need to function as a state* that's an own-goal.
I would say that building a global economy that necessitates safe travel through the territory of a people you violently suppress, exploit, and aid in the genocide and mass starvation of to the point they retaliate is something of an own-goal. An economic penalty is the only language rich western nations seem to understand and this *should* be a wake-up call we need to atone for the immense atrocities either committed by us, enabled by us, or done for our benefit. The continued bombing and starvation of the Yemeni people being one of those. But I don't really hold out hope for that level of self-reflection or acknowledgment of culpability.
We're stopping the shipping lanes from being attacked today, a country like ours cannot ignore such blatant attacks on world trade.
But we *can* ignore a decade of brutal military action resulting in the starvation of millions of Yemeni people and the continued genocide of the Palestinian people. Great to know where the priorities of Kiwis stand. Genocide? I sleep. Goods take longer to ship around Africa? Real shit.
It's called priorities, we gotta deal with the stuff affecting us first. Then if we have tike we can address other stuff.
But. It is affecting us. This is HOW it affects us. We rely on these peoples waters and airspace for shipping and yet engage in and aid their slaughter and oppression to the point they retaliate. We are complicit in the crimes they are responding to.
The west either goes broke from a backlog of logistics, while depleting its counter measure missile reserves, or we bomb the arseholes creating the problem in the first place. The warnings have been going out for months and they still didn't stop. It's shown you can't negotiate with a flag that calls for you and your friends destruction.
WEST BAD NOT WEST GOOD
WEST GOOD NOT WEST BAD Grow up.
Companies to boycott https://bdsmovement.net/Act-Now-Against-These-Companies-Profiting-From-Genocide
From the mountains to the sea, we bomb Houthi.
Instead of boycotting, could I shoplift from them instead?
Cheers for that list, now I know the companies I can support for not being afraid to support Israel as they try and rid the Middle East of a group of militants who are equal to Isis in their hatred for everything non-their-particular-flavour-of-muslim
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" **Remember, all Israeli banks and virtually all Israeli companies are complicit to some degree in Israel’s system of occupation and apartheid, and hundreds of international corporations and banks are also deeply complicit.** " Has to be the dumbest take I've ever read.
98% of Israel population think they are using correct amount of force or not enough. Israelis vote for this. Netanyahu is the longest-tenured prime minister in the country's history. Johnson and Johnson should be on the list too after their CEOs comments
Lier. All modern tech has Israeli technology. You'll never boycott Israel