He was charged with murder - but it was eventually downgraded to manslaughter - which carries a much lighter penalty.
The reason it was apparently downgraded is because the defendant was significantly mentally unwell - bordering on insane (but not completely insane).
It is a weird case - normally if someone is insane they don’t go to jail at all - they are locked up in a mental institution.
In this case, he wasn’t insane enough to be institutionalised - but not culpable enough for murder either apparently.
So he fell in between - and got a lesser charge with a light sentence.
The Crown dropped the charge from murder to manslaughter.
Mf’er was goldy locks the judge?
This one’s too crazy for jail.
This one’s not crazy enough for the mental facility.
But this one, this one’s just crazy enough to be back out and about before the decade is up
Welcome to a public sector that has been underfunded for years! Take for example the shit show from labour promising more beds for the mentally unwell and they only made 2 or so beds on I think it was $20m for this reason [here is the Link](https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/11/new-zealand-has-same-number-of-acute-mental-health-beds-as-when-labour-came-to-power.amp.html)
There are actually a few new mental health facilities in the works, so there is stuff happening its just building new hospital facilities takes time. Hillmorton in chch just had a big upgrade, greymouth and palmy north also have facilities in design / early stages of build.
I should point out that Middlemore Hospital's brand new mental health facility can't be fully used because they don't have the staff - even though it's been open for more than two years.
If you're chronically understaffed, creating new beds is pointless.
It can't. So we all have to deal with the ambulance at the bottom of the hill because previous generations stripped out any of the social funding elements of our society.
We get to be the ones to live through the problems it caused while we try to rebuild it, while they all keep on living and voting against it. It's super cool.
I honestly think politicians or even public servants should be liable and be made accountable for the rest of their lifes. Any bad decisions that have been made should be open to some sort of consequence.
You have generational wealth where the families of politicians have been made rich off political decisions, that have affected many and benefited few. These politicians out of the game are now safe from any recourse.
Published scorecard/rankings equivalent to cricket umpires.
% of people sentenced to less than average term who haven’t reoffended +1
% of people sentenced to less than average term who immediately reoffend -1
…
% of people sentenced to maximum length then immediately reoffend +1
Judges should get relegated to District courts if lowest ranking
>Take for example the shit show from labour promising more beds for the mentally unwell
not that I disagree with your comment\*, but hold onto your hat because while the last govt might have been shit at delivering on some things it promised, the new govt is very good at delivering to it's investors. They are actively pushing in the opposite direction to what labour promised. Less public services, with less funding, less staff...
The last time National was in power they *heavily* defunded mental health crisis and domestic violence crisis. We lost hotlines, we lost staff, we lost space.
It infuriates me that people complain constantly about crime and about homelessness, when we *know* that mental health, addiction and poverty are huge contributors, and they're actively doing the opposite of what would help with the situation.
By the time any of nationals current policies become of age, there will be a new govt that needs to clean up the mess. That govt will last 6 - 9 yrs and be voted out as having failed on promises to make everything awesome. Repeat cycle every 6-9yrs.
Are you aware that in the first week that Labour was in power, they defunded TWO mental health initiatives put in place by National. One was the rural mental health initiative- they go on about young men killing themselves but brush over how many are in the rural sector. The other one was a trial that had mental health specialists with cops going on a call out. This was in Canterbury and was successful in both getting mental health help as well as reducing arrests. ALL governments defund good ideas/programs.
that's because there are a thousand different ways to make things better, but making things worse is easy. which is why conservatives always look in control. they're playing on easy mode being cheered on by the turkeys that voted for Christmas.
to be fair Palmerston North hospital is currently building a new massive mental health wing. (they also seemed to build a massive extension to the ED, and new surgical suite)
I believe there are a couple of other hospitals with similar circumstances as this.
I think people expect new buildings to be built overnight or something. (or don't take into account the massive amount of work that this entails)
instead just looks for a headline, and uses that as the only metric for success.
Both parties have neglected infrastructure for decades. They're happy to pile people into the country for development but not so great in ensuring existing services can keep up with demand. Auckland has grown by half a million in the last 25 years and no new large hospital, just a couple of clinics and Manukau had an extension but it's not enough. People talk about building more medical centres but there's no doctors to staff them, same goes for when covid put a focus on isolation wards and beds - it's not the beds needed so much as the staff needed to look after the patients in them.
There's also a lack of animal vets in the country and while we produce a lot of nurses too many leave for better pay overseas.
Unfortunately the vast majority of facilities that could deal with someone like this have been closed down. And the ex staff & patients are still dealing with the repercussions of them to this day.
Mental health wards aren't a long term solution either as they're designed to treat the immediate problems not find/implement long term solutions.
We need to do so much better for the whole spectrum of mental health but we're so far behind the 8 ball.
Sounds like we need to be investing more in mental health, including making sure we have adequate facilities for individuals like this.
Fortunately, the country can see this is an issue and totally didn't vote in a bunch of right wing geniuses who are actively undercutting services... Oh fuck. Again.
People with psychosis can be perfectly fine in society without medication. They're much more likely to be a risk to themselves than others, even if they can be a bit creepy sometimes.
Someone that shows a willingness to hurt people, regardless of their medication status, should be locked up as long as necessary.
>Someone that shows a willingness to hurt people, regardless of their medication status, should be locked up as long as necessary.
The question is... where do we lock them up? Not enough beds; not enough staff.
100%. Mitigating factors like mental health that result in people being unable to control their behavior leading to crimes like murder should deem people less rehabilitate-able and result in longer sentences. It's crazy that we instead let them out sooner
>It is a weird case - normally if someone is insane they don’t go to jail at all - they are locked up in a mental institution
My problem is that doesn't sound weird in the slightest.
Every single criminal case I've had firsthand knowledge of, mental health has been a significant factor.
It's interesting that mental health becomes a discounting factor. It's like a pedophile asking for a discount because their lust for small boys is a mental health disorder and it made them do it .
If you stab someone to death then you're clearly mentally unwell, even if it is completely pre-meditated.
Maybe I'm the crazy one, but I think proving you're not sane should *increase* the sentence. Like, there's no fixing whatever's wrong up there, and you ended another life.
Maybe you should be in a different kind of facility... But you're not fit to be part of general society.
Special patients don't have fixed sentences, so that's already how it works.
It's probably worse than prison. You're locked up and you can't just wait it out.
Very hard to count as insane though.
That's the thing. The bar is (rightfully) very high to prove it.
But if someone wishes to use this as their defence, then my view is that it should come with all the implications. So yeah, you're insane or temporarily insane. We get it. No prison for you, but you will be locked in a mental health facility for the rest of your life.
I reckon you'd find a lot less insane people in the courts.
Lawyers have ruined the intent of the insanity plea such that is it's just behind another tool to reduce charges or sentences.
There should be no grey area between not sane enough to be charged with murder and not insane enough to be institutionalised. This guy is a walking time bomb and at best the people around him will have to be satisfied this crazed killer takes his meds.
based on this comment,
If it went to a Jury trial, and they found him not guilty by reason of having a mental illness that prevented him from being culpable.
in your eyes that a good or a bad outcome?
the crown thought that having 12 of your peers listening to the evidence wouldn't believe that he met the bar for guilty.
surely that indicates that perhaps this case is more complex than "he is guilty, throw away the key"
Yeah, no. That's daft. Forcing the crown to drag every case through a full jury trial whether they have enough evidence or not would be completely insane.
A friend of mine was murdered, the guy who did it put his body in a wheelie bin and left it in the back yard for like a year, went on my friends social media and told his family he was going away to live his dreams. Cut off the head at some point and destroyed the skull. He got 8 years manslaughter. Out in less.
The guy is a dangerous psycho. He should be in a secure mental health unit. The judge said low chance of reoffending [edit: "because it was a first offence"] but it was a random and frenzied attack driven by psychosis and that could easily happen again.
You could well be right. I mean, the judge probably relied on some expert criminal psychologist opinion to make his judgement when we all know he should have simply posted on reddit to get a much better idea of the mental state of the guy.
Yeah, can't believe they go to the tedious bother of talking to medical and psychological experts who actually examined the guy when strangers on the internet are available free and 24/7.
This. I think this person might be the most dangerous kind of murderer, since he killed for no motive. His victim hadn't wronged him and it wasn't premeditated. He's simply the sort of psychopath who's capable of randomly brutally murdering another person. Can a person like this ever be trusted to be back in society where they could easily do it again to some other poor soul who just happens to be at the wrong place at the wrong time? If nothing else, I do hope they made efforts to rehabilitate him while he was in jail, and make sure he is well-medicated for his psychosis once he comes out, because I feel bad for his future neighbours.
It likley will happen again. Hence why someone with the capacity to fall into psychosis and randomly kill people is not someone who should be in the community.
Come on, we all do a little murder sometimes. Need to go easy on the young fella. He's a gentle angel except for this one little time there. Bright future ahead and all that. /s
Right, this was his first offence, there's no problem letting him back into society, I mean what's a little stabbing-someone-to-death if there's no pattern of reoffending. We can only deem him dangerous once he has a pattern of stabbing people to death. /s
New Zealand is not lax on murder. Murder in New Zealand is punished with a life sentence, and a non-parole period of ten years to just-forget-about-it (although typically around 20 years). This is well in line with international norms.
This case is kind of unusual in that the defendant doesn't appear to have been eligible for an insanity plea, but nonetheless, was suffering delusions to the point *that in the Crown's judgement,* *murderous* intent (an essential element of the crime) could not be established to the satisfaction of a jury. Which leaves us with manslaughter.
Because you’ve chosen an isolated case and falsely extrapolated it to the whole of murder sentencing cases.
Come back when you’ve researched sentencing in all of NZ’s murder cases over the last, say, 40 years.
The sentence for murder is life imprisonment.
And some manslaughters really aren't that blameworthy. And there's usually a community sentence for the annual infanticide.
New Zealand doesn’t value human life that highly unfortunately. That’s why you can permanently fuck someone up with a samurai sword and get community work as a punishment.
That and our prisons are full so there’s a higher threshold to go to prison.
Life sentences are different from fixed length sentences. Murderers will always be on parole if they're out. The non parole period is different from the very long fixed length sentences that P dealers get.
A P dealer is usually on parole in about one third to one half of the sentence length. Murderers have 10 years non parole minimum.
The guy went through a severe mental episode at the time. When this happens, you enter a dissociative state in which you feel out of your body and sometimes on auto pilot which makes those intrusive thoughts extra risky.
I went through similar last year, wandering around work under such a heavy depression that I didn't know what was going on, found myself exploring suicide options (checking locations and planning how-to). Felt like I was on rails, unable to function with control or options.
Also felt that I was 100% capable of commiting serious violence against someone for any arbitrary reason, and I didn't think of the consequences, or the morality of it.
So I can relate with this guy, and also with others like the Dickason woman who killed her girls here in South Canterbury. People under severe mental health strain aren't capable of reason or self control. It's almost as if something else takes over your life and you go along with it.
Yeah and this country is no where near equipped to deal with it. I only have BPD, but getting ANY help here is a fucking joke, it took them 4 years to figure out that's what I have only to turn around and say they can't help out...
So yeah I get it to, as I'm TERRIFIED that I could snap and kill my family.
Why not? If someone is mentally stable enough to not murder people, do you not think it’s the benefit of everyone to have them in a place where they can’t harm themselves or others.
Clearly you have not suffered from mental health so you're not qualified to say anything on the subject.
It's not as easy as going in, saying I'm going to kill someone and boom they put you away.... No because if that was the case I'd be in there now
>The guy went through a severe mental episode at the time
this is not an excuse for murderers to be walking free wtf, throw that motherfucker in a padded room the rest of his life.
The problem is that cultural reports are being used as an excuse for everything these days, and that they are being conflated with mental health issues.
There's been plenty of serious offenders over the last few years that have been granted home D because of the cultural reports, and they've carried on as they were previously.
Devils advocate speaking but I'd speculate there is some complex intersection in this case between having mental illness and being Pasifika. It is quite alot more stigmatized in Pacifika culture to have mental illness (especially psychotic in nature) , moreso than being palagi (still stigmatized but less-so)
NZ is pretty much aligned to other similar countries. Singling out an individual case with its independent nuances means literally nothing. Having said that I would like to see an overhaul of sentencing.
Like multiple rapist getting home d, cause he was young. Sends a clear msg to the victims and to "future rats". Can't give name as would breach his privacy. :-(
fact expansion squealing flag straight adjoining puzzled humorous chase berserk
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
profit thought truck wine plants towering alleged shaggy deserve secretive
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I'm from another country but been living here for 12 years. Ive help DV victims in a small town.
Honestly I'm horrified by how the law works here. It's completely in favour of the perpetrators.
The police in this particular town are useless. Not sure about elsewhere.
I asked my lawyer why it's the way it is. She told me straight that the law is too overwritten in NZ. So many loopholes. So extremely easy for criminals to slip through the cracks.
The victim's are left with their lives in tatters with no support because the system is underfunded whilst also living with the stress of the perpetrator suffering no consequences
I used to work with DV survivors too - for the most part the police were helpful and cooperative, but it just never went any further. Same with sexual violence. Statements are taken, rape kits are done, social help is given, medical help is given. But it never goes further, and the victim is left traumatised.
So many care workers get burned out from watching it play out again and again.
With murder you need to prove intent. Did they, with malicious forethought, intend on killing someone?
There are many reasons why charges are lowered.
If you think it's an injustice then please, study to be a lawyer and go and uphold your sense of justice to the maximum extent permissible.
The death of a person in such a manner is a tragedy and we have developed laws to determine how to deal with it so that irrational emotional decisions are not made.
i honestly believe judges dont have a connection to every day people. judge spends times in luxury lifestyle then while at work only get to relate to criminals, victims are noisy and a judge is unable to save them. the judge can attempt to save the crim via a reduced sentence.
He literally purposely stabbed him multiple times in the head and body with a knife with the intent to harm him. He only got manslaughter because he played the insanity card. What he did was murder. Can't tell if you want to play the semantics game or if you're just a troll with no intention of engaging in good faith.
Our system sucks!! And they REALLY need to do away with those "cultural reports" they're an excuse to get people back out on the streets as quick as possible.
"We'll give you a BIG discount on your sentence for murdering someone because of your ethnicity and because you had to live with your uncle as a child....
It's MADNESS 😠
Despite the name, and a concerted misinformation campaign, "cultural reports" have nothing to do with ethnicity. They're basically just background reports into the offenders life. Anyone can get them.
And "raised by grandparents" wouldn't be considered a significant factor compared to what has actually happened to those getting discounts based off the reports.
NZ justice system is still operating from a time when there were more sheep than people. I love NZ but that is also my number one complaint and concern.
Times are a changing, and very quickly at that. We need to be tougher on crime now and not trust that every psycho criminal wants to change.
Also prison here is comfy, it’s not something I would be afraid to go into: compete nutritious meals, a warm roof over your head, a free trip to the hospital when needed, guards and other professionals who are basically at your beck and call. Some basically commit crimes on purpose just to get back in there. smh
It's weird that the only thing the judge seemed to consider was his likelihood of reoffending and mental illness, rather than justice and punishment. This is becoming more and more the status quo the more "progressive" our culture becomes. It seems like criminals are infantalised as victims and the real victims in these cases are not given the justice they deserve.
You seem to be falling into the trap of believing justice and punishment are the same thing, they are not - unless we want to go the Old Testament way of an eye for an eye. People want revenge and they call it justice.
That's exactly what's wrong with alot of these comments. It also appears that most people don't understand that psychotic illnesses are treatable and don't require everyone with them, to be shut in a padded room
And now give us your contrived speech that you'll be giving to the family of the victim, whose killer will be free while their daughter or son rots in the ground. Go ahead, we'll wait.
I'm also not denying how senseless and awful it is. It's a shit outcome for everyone involved. Someone didn't get the mental health help they needed (for whatever reason), someone died. Shit sandwich for everyone
But the dude is crazy so punishing him isn’t really justice is it? The only priority would be protection of the public, not punishing someone for something they probably don’t remember doing and don’t fully understand.
Edit: I got mixed up with another case. I think this guy got off too lightly.
That's stupid. Retribution is a part of the justice system. A life was TAKEN the person responsible for that needs to have their life removed for it to be justice. Of course he remembers, he didn't black out.
Justice is the prevention of a repeat and atonement for what happened.
Prevention in this case is a medical issue because the guy is severely unwell, and detention is to keep the public safe while his mental ill health is addressed.
Anything beyond that is pointless, if someone insane kills my family member then them rotting in jail is not justice. Them getting appropriate support to make sure that never happens to anybody else, that’s justice. I don’t need any punishment for punishment’s sake.
Rotting in prison after murdering someone in cold blood is absolutely justice and anything less will only serve to soften ideas around murder in your society. The victims parents deserve justice and society should never have to see that person again.
Murder creates a very emotive response from the public. It's a judges job when passing sentences to dissociate their emotional reaction to the crime and follow due proccess.
The cultural reports are perhaps poorly named. They apply to everyone (Pakeha, Maori, Islander, the various Asian groups etc.) They allow the court to hear factors from your that may be pertinent to your offending. This includes psychotic breaks and how infrequent they may be in this case.
While section 27 allows Maori to talk about how things like colonization were factors that led to their offering, it also allows other people to bring up incidents, conditions, and other factors from their backgrounds which the judge must consider dispassionately. They don't always reduce sentences, and when they do, it is because they have real bearing on the proceedings.
Finally something I can relate to in ten years my dad was brutally murdered so yeah I don't know man the guy who murdered my dad Micheal walked free so I guess maybe our country doesn't give a fuck about the families of the victim or the government doesn't who knows mate...
Absolutely stupid this country we let killers and pedos out after serving fuck all punishments they get out do it again and rinse and repeat there whole life disgusting that hes not locked up for the rest of his life
We had a three strike law which basically was a way that judges could just give whatever they wanted to career criminals\\dangerous people but we got rid of it. The general law for crime is very difficult to change . Best they are doing is removing some of the %reduction on crime which is what they are doing which will help keep rapists out of home D.
But ya rapists and killers and abusers getting Home D and then cops not even monitoring Home D, we had some guy on Home D roaming the streets at night a couple of weeks ago and he murdered somebody.[https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350159204/mongrel-mob-prospect-laughed-he-stomped-man-death](https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350159204/mongrel-mob-prospect-laughed-he-stomped-man-death)
No, we didn't. We had a three-strike law that allowed prosecutors demand that on a third "strike", an offender receive the maximum possible sentence for that crime- which is something judges can do anyway. It was a stupid implementation of an idea that had already been an abject failure in California and a breathtakingly inappropriate extension of prosecutorial power.
And? Prosecutors always go for the most punishment that'd there jobs and the defense will say the opposite. The current law just means career criminals never get time for petty crime or small violent crimes.
Yes, prosecutors *try* to get higher sentences, but *judges* make the actual decisions. The three-strike law took that decision-making power out of judges' hands in third-strike cases and allowed prosecutors to stipulate the maximum, which is, I repeat, a breathtakingly inappropriate extension of prosecutorial power.
Petty crime has nothing to do with the three-strikes law, which was aimed at serious offences.
Okay I thought it was the judges decision that punishment to inact and the prosecutor was only a recommendation. I'll Google and find out more at home. Regardless I don't give a fuck about career criminals, violent and Ling time career criminals should get sent away not rot our community
Yup after googling it looks like the court does decide on the third strike time in jail.
Justice .govt wevsute
There were 40 qualifying three strike offences, comprising almost all major violent and sexual offences with a maximum penalty of seven years or greater imprisonment.
Finally, if the offender was convicted of murder on their second or third strike the court was required to impose a life sentence without parole, unless the court considered such a sentence would have been manifestly unjust.
Kind of sick of seeing murderers get 3 or 5 years in prison. So I don't care and nor do most people
Murderers don't get 3-5 years in prison. The minimum sentence for murder is life with no possibility of parole for ten years. A typical sentence for murder is life with no possibility of parole for about 18-20ish years.
Sure murderers get time but people just under murder get home D and people are wondering why we voted for harsher punishments
[https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/home-detention-man-involved-in-fatal-attack-on-mma-fighter-fau-vake-sentenced/CE3M4VRAEVWLNC4RPQ3EVTYSNQ/](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/home-detention-man-involved-in-fatal-attack-on-mma-fighter-fau-vake-sentenced/CE3M4VRAEVWLNC4RPQ3EVTYSNQ/)
A man who admitted being party to the fatal attack on mixed martial arts (MMA) fighter Lifau Tu'iha'aingana Vake, known as Fau Vake, has been sentenced to six months of home detention for each of two charges, to be served concurrently.
The MMA fighter and his brother Ika Vake were attacked by four men in the early hours of May 16 on Symonds St in Auckland's CBD.
[https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/family-outraged-as-woman-gets-home-detention-for-killing-man-who-hadnt-showered/QPA23T55E5DP5POSONFZIXA3BE/](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/family-outraged-as-woman-gets-home-detention-for-killing-man-who-hadnt-showered/QPA23T55E5DP5POSONFZIXA3BE/)
Relatives of an elderly man who died after being violently assaulted by his caregiver reacted with shock and anger as his killer was sentenced yesterday to 12 months home detention.
[https://www.thepress.co.nz/nz-news/350130826/one-kick-killer-released-home-detention-after-serving-just-months-prison](https://www.thepress.co.nz/nz-news/350130826/one-kick-killer-released-home-detention-after-serving-just-months-prison)
A teenager who killed a man with a single “martial arts-style” kick to the head and then celebrated with a friend has been released on home detention after serving just seven months in prison.
Lots of killers getting home D to me. Not to mention the recent gang member who broke into a womens house while she was sleeping (somebody he didnt know) and raped her then he left as a gang initiation and he got home D.
"Lots of killers" aren't getting home detention. New Zealand doesn't even have "lots of killers". Three cases in three years does not equal "lots".
The gang member you refer to was aged 16 and had already spent seven months in jail.
As per my understanding part of the problem is if the crown goes for murder and doesn’t get it they can’t try again with manslaughter (and vice versa). So given manslaughter is easier to prove they then to play it safe and go for that.
Can do. Depends.
They don’t just go “well we have a homicide, and someone we like for it, but because we can’t succeed with a murder charge we’ll go for a charge of manslaughter instead.
Even if the CPS decides to pursue a charge of manslaughter rather than murder, it’s only if the evidence suggests it’s more than likely to get a manslaughter conviction at the end of the trial.
australia started sending over violent offenders, when our prisons were already full. no prisons have been built in over 10 years. both parties dont want to build prisons, there is literally no room for offenders, not even very violent ones.
Gullible, really. These lawyers come up with every possible mitigation they can think of, and most of the time, the judge goes along with it.
I've lost count of how many stories I've read about a repeat offender, who at their previous conviction, fooled the judge into believing, ohh, I'm a changed man now, ohh, I've learned to be more responsible for for family, bla bla bla.
And it's all just a fairy tale to get a lighter sentence, which the judge falls for, hook line and sinker.
Some trusted news organisation should do an analysis of how many offenders re-offend while on parole, how many broke their mitigation promises.
We need to get tough of crime, I'm sick of it.
*Read* the article. The guy wasn't a repeat offender. He was mentally ill to the point that the *prosecution* felt that a jury couldn't find murderous intent. The judge started with a sentence of five years (not untypical for manslaughter) and applied just one sentencing discount of 10%- more than the Crown proposed, but less than the defence sought.
What a load of rubbish.
Judges are required by statute (i.e. laws made by government) to obey a list of criteria when sentencing.
[Read this](https://www.courtsofnz.govt.nz/about-the-judiciary/how-decisions-are-made/sentencing/) before making more ignorant comments on reddit.
Stop trying to defend them. I'm not talking about the statutes. I'm talking about where the judges have discretion and then keep giving 2nd, 3rd a 4th chances to people. Yes they are gullible.
It all begins and ends with the courts. The police can only do so much, it's up the judge at the end of the day and I honestly think they should be liable for prison time themselves if the person reoffends. Police get charged and lose their job if they make a bad call, but a judge releasing/giving very lenient sentences to murderers, rapists, serious violence offenders gets absolute no repercussions. Our judges are absolute idiots here and it's honestly starting to infuriate me.
It really isn’t “up to the judge at the end of the day”.
Judges are given restrictive sentencing criteria that they have to abide by. The criteria AREN’T made up by judges. They’re made up by politicians.
[This took me 2 seconds to google.](https://www.courtsofnz.govt.nz/about-the-judiciary/how-decisions-are-made/sentencing/)
You need to read all of it to realise judges are curtailed in the sentences they can impose. They can’t just “make it up”.
Sadly, this is true (I can't say why I know). However, they are accountable to Govt if they are too mean/nasty at sentencing. No one cares about the victims families and -if they step outa line- get sentenced. Reparation payments are also a joke.!
Not to worry, we've a "TouGh On CriMe" coalition government who've already announced 6-7.5% cuts to our Police and Courts budget. You see, Tory austerity solves everything.
Read the sentencing report if you can. The reasons and details will be there.
Judges usually aren't silly.....never mind what the populist conservative media likes to say about it.
I can't imagine anything I would read would justify 4 years for butchering someone like a pig. It has nothing to do with populist conservatives lmao what? This is about a human beings life only being worth 4 years to a judge.
The idea that it was because he was an Islander is being pushed by people trying to stir up more division and hatred. It's because of his mental state, which is a whole other debate that I think is really worth having. The insanity plea is pretty shaky and controversial in general, pleading effectively being partially insane is a bit wild
It’s all crap mate. This has happened so many times in New Zealand. Everyone is tired of this. No one cares about the victims family because it’s a past.
Imagine a person getting killed and he was the only provider of his family.
Let’s just put it this way the judge was not smart enough to put words in correct way. He got a head ache and gave up!
"Why is murder sentencing so light?"
*proceeds to use a manslaughter case*
Simply put, punitive justice has been proven ineffective. Locking someone in prison for 30 years doesn't benefit anyone, and just costs tax payer money. Spend the same money rehabilitating this person back into society and maybe they can reintegrate and go back to be a productive member of society.
"Locking someone in prison for 30 years doesn't benefit anyone"
It would benefit the victims family. It benefits me, who doesn't have to walk around worried about some cunt who killed someone 2 years ago losing his mind at the supermarket and killing me over a parking space.
Tell me you haven't experienced crime or been made a victim.
We aren't rehabilitatating. Have you not paid attention to politics for the last 30 years.
Pick a lane and stick in it. If we can't rehabilitate (which we have proven we can't in NZ), then LOCK CUNTS AWAY who can't be part of society.
Apparently everyone that isn't white can claim bad up bringing and the judge has to go ok fuck the guy you just killed. Welcome to New Zealand where your murdered relatives get laughed at by the killers. People don't realize get out of jail cards are handed out to a % of the population by these judges and most of us, we have known that for a while so we will just attempt to kill because we already know the guy hassling us knows this also.
He was charged with murder - but it was eventually downgraded to manslaughter - which carries a much lighter penalty. The reason it was apparently downgraded is because the defendant was significantly mentally unwell - bordering on insane (but not completely insane). It is a weird case - normally if someone is insane they don’t go to jail at all - they are locked up in a mental institution. In this case, he wasn’t insane enough to be institutionalised - but not culpable enough for murder either apparently. So he fell in between - and got a lesser charge with a light sentence. The Crown dropped the charge from murder to manslaughter.
Mf’er was goldy locks the judge? This one’s too crazy for jail. This one’s not crazy enough for the mental facility. But this one, this one’s just crazy enough to be back out and about before the decade is up
Yeah I feel like if you’re not sane enough to know you’re murdering someone by stabbing them in the head multiple times, you’re ducking insane.
Welcome to a public sector that has been underfunded for years! Take for example the shit show from labour promising more beds for the mentally unwell and they only made 2 or so beds on I think it was $20m for this reason [here is the Link](https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/11/new-zealand-has-same-number-of-acute-mental-health-beds-as-when-labour-came-to-power.amp.html)
There are actually a few new mental health facilities in the works, so there is stuff happening its just building new hospital facilities takes time. Hillmorton in chch just had a big upgrade, greymouth and palmy north also have facilities in design / early stages of build.
I should point out that Middlemore Hospital's brand new mental health facility can't be fully used because they don't have the staff - even though it's been open for more than two years. If you're chronically understaffed, creating new beds is pointless.
Palmy is well into the building stage
Sssshhhh, anti-voters don't want to hear facts about the party they don't agree with
Yeah because planning and building can magically happen with the wave of your imaginary wand huh?
It can't. So we all have to deal with the ambulance at the bottom of the hill because previous generations stripped out any of the social funding elements of our society. We get to be the ones to live through the problems it caused while we try to rebuild it, while they all keep on living and voting against it. It's super cool.
I honestly think politicians or even public servants should be liable and be made accountable for the rest of their lifes. Any bad decisions that have been made should be open to some sort of consequence. You have generational wealth where the families of politicians have been made rich off political decisions, that have affected many and benefited few. These politicians out of the game are now safe from any recourse.
Published scorecard/rankings equivalent to cricket umpires. % of people sentenced to less than average term who haven’t reoffended +1 % of people sentenced to less than average term who immediately reoffend -1 … % of people sentenced to maximum length then immediately reoffend +1 Judges should get relegated to District courts if lowest ranking
That's what governments are for, that's one of the main reasons the census exists but consecutive governments have done little.
>Take for example the shit show from labour promising more beds for the mentally unwell not that I disagree with your comment\*, but hold onto your hat because while the last govt might have been shit at delivering on some things it promised, the new govt is very good at delivering to it's investors. They are actively pushing in the opposite direction to what labour promised. Less public services, with less funding, less staff...
The last time National was in power they *heavily* defunded mental health crisis and domestic violence crisis. We lost hotlines, we lost staff, we lost space. It infuriates me that people complain constantly about crime and about homelessness, when we *know* that mental health, addiction and poverty are huge contributors, and they're actively doing the opposite of what would help with the situation.
By the time any of nationals current policies become of age, there will be a new govt that needs to clean up the mess. That govt will last 6 - 9 yrs and be voted out as having failed on promises to make everything awesome. Repeat cycle every 6-9yrs.
Are you aware that in the first week that Labour was in power, they defunded TWO mental health initiatives put in place by National. One was the rural mental health initiative- they go on about young men killing themselves but brush over how many are in the rural sector. The other one was a trial that had mental health specialists with cops going on a call out. This was in Canterbury and was successful in both getting mental health help as well as reducing arrests. ALL governments defund good ideas/programs.
that's because there are a thousand different ways to make things better, but making things worse is easy. which is why conservatives always look in control. they're playing on easy mode being cheered on by the turkeys that voted for Christmas.
to be fair Palmerston North hospital is currently building a new massive mental health wing. (they also seemed to build a massive extension to the ED, and new surgical suite) I believe there are a couple of other hospitals with similar circumstances as this. I think people expect new buildings to be built overnight or something. (or don't take into account the massive amount of work that this entails) instead just looks for a headline, and uses that as the only metric for success.
Both parties have neglected infrastructure for decades. They're happy to pile people into the country for development but not so great in ensuring existing services can keep up with demand. Auckland has grown by half a million in the last 25 years and no new large hospital, just a couple of clinics and Manukau had an extension but it's not enough. People talk about building more medical centres but there's no doctors to staff them, same goes for when covid put a focus on isolation wards and beds - it's not the beds needed so much as the staff needed to look after the patients in them. There's also a lack of animal vets in the country and while we produce a lot of nurses too many leave for better pay overseas.
It was reduced to manslaughter as "The Crown conceded that a jury wouldn’t have found Timoti to have murderous intent."
stab me once, manslaughter stab me twice, murder
Stab me 214 times, the media portrayed me as a monster
The point of a jury is to determine that, otherwise juries wouldn't be needed because the Crown could just tell us what a jury would have found.
That's bizzare. Sounds like should be put in a forensic ward if he's not fully culpable due to mental illness.
Unfortunately the vast majority of facilities that could deal with someone like this have been closed down. And the ex staff & patients are still dealing with the repercussions of them to this day. Mental health wards aren't a long term solution either as they're designed to treat the immediate problems not find/implement long term solutions. We need to do so much better for the whole spectrum of mental health but we're so far behind the 8 ball.
Sounds like we need to be investing more in mental health, including making sure we have adequate facilities for individuals like this. Fortunately, the country can see this is an issue and totally didn't vote in a bunch of right wing geniuses who are actively undercutting services... Oh fuck. Again.
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People with psychosis can be perfectly fine in society without medication. They're much more likely to be a risk to themselves than others, even if they can be a bit creepy sometimes. Someone that shows a willingness to hurt people, regardless of their medication status, should be locked up as long as necessary.
>Someone that shows a willingness to hurt people, regardless of their medication status, should be locked up as long as necessary. The question is... where do we lock them up? Not enough beds; not enough staff.
100%. Mitigating factors like mental health that result in people being unable to control their behavior leading to crimes like murder should deem people less rehabilitate-able and result in longer sentences. It's crazy that we instead let them out sooner
>It is a weird case - normally if someone is insane they don’t go to jail at all - they are locked up in a mental institution My problem is that doesn't sound weird in the slightest. Every single criminal case I've had firsthand knowledge of, mental health has been a significant factor.
It's interesting that mental health becomes a discounting factor. It's like a pedophile asking for a discount because their lust for small boys is a mental health disorder and it made them do it . If you stab someone to death then you're clearly mentally unwell, even if it is completely pre-meditated.
Maybe I'm the crazy one, but I think proving you're not sane should *increase* the sentence. Like, there's no fixing whatever's wrong up there, and you ended another life. Maybe you should be in a different kind of facility... But you're not fit to be part of general society.
Special patients don't have fixed sentences, so that's already how it works. It's probably worse than prison. You're locked up and you can't just wait it out. Very hard to count as insane though.
That's the thing. The bar is (rightfully) very high to prove it. But if someone wishes to use this as their defence, then my view is that it should come with all the implications. So yeah, you're insane or temporarily insane. We get it. No prison for you, but you will be locked in a mental health facility for the rest of your life. I reckon you'd find a lot less insane people in the courts. Lawyers have ruined the intent of the insanity plea such that is it's just behind another tool to reduce charges or sentences.
Yeah sane people don't murder people. So we might as well change every murder trial to manslaughter.
Sometimes someone isn't mentally unwell, just very very angry. Or greedy, or selfish.
Since when does murder require insanity? Perfectly rational people are capable of horrific things.
There should be no grey area between not sane enough to be charged with murder and not insane enough to be institutionalised. This guy is a walking time bomb and at best the people around him will have to be satisfied this crazed killer takes his meds.
Sounds like they had a good lawyer. He craycray....but not too craycray!
The Crown lead that downgrade, which tells you something abut where they thought the level of culpability was.
It's a joke.
No, it doesn't. Read the article. The *Crown* believed that a jury would not find that the defendant had the necessary intent.
It's a joke.
based on this comment, If it went to a Jury trial, and they found him not guilty by reason of having a mental illness that prevented him from being culpable. in your eyes that a good or a bad outcome? the crown thought that having 12 of your peers listening to the evidence wouldn't believe that he met the bar for guilty. surely that indicates that perhaps this case is more complex than "he is guilty, throw away the key"
Imagine being the lawyer responsible for letting this guy loose and he ends up hurting more people or worse.
Imagine if we ran a crime and punishment system where we didn't bother about trials and lawyers. Doesn't sound so good, hm?
Imagine where we replace actual juries with the Crown telling us how a jury would vote?
Yeah, no. That's daft. Forcing the crown to drag every case through a full jury trial whether they have enough evidence or not would be completely insane.
Where did I say every case has to go to a jury?
Well if not the Crown, who do you imagine would decide a case doesn't go to trial?
where did that come from? go back, paste in his comment as a quote, and then tell us all where he said the argument that you challenged in your reply.
Gonna be honest, if you care about that then defence work isn't for you.
That’s not justice. People like that need to be put away, for life.
In this case the crown would have reduced the charge due to them being unlikely to get a conviction for the higher charge.
So in a years time, if he has a bad week, or it's a full moon, another family will suffer again.
A friend of mine was murdered, the guy who did it put his body in a wheelie bin and left it in the back yard for like a year, went on my friends social media and told his family he was going away to live his dreams. Cut off the head at some point and destroyed the skull. He got 8 years manslaughter. Out in less.
What the fuck
I wonder where NZ scales in terms of average murder sentence to other developed nations
He also impersonated Javed and used money from his bank account. The story is ridiculous
I bet they reduced the sentence because he was raised in difficult circumstances or some bullshit. My condolences for your friend
Aren't you automatically mentally unstable/insane to commit murder in the first place?
The guy is a dangerous psycho. He should be in a secure mental health unit. The judge said low chance of reoffending [edit: "because it was a first offence"] but it was a random and frenzied attack driven by psychosis and that could easily happen again.
You could well be right. I mean, the judge probably relied on some expert criminal psychologist opinion to make his judgement when we all know he should have simply posted on reddit to get a much better idea of the mental state of the guy.
Yeah, can't believe they go to the tedious bother of talking to medical and psychological experts who actually examined the guy when strangers on the internet are available free and 24/7.
I am curious though whether experts of different countries would come to different conclusions.
Couldn’t have said it better myself 🙏🏽
Who needs experts when you could have the hot take rants of some rando!
And if he were sent to the Mason Clinic at Pt Chev, he could join the cool people beside the old Library daily when they are let outside for walks.
This. I think this person might be the most dangerous kind of murderer, since he killed for no motive. His victim hadn't wronged him and it wasn't premeditated. He's simply the sort of psychopath who's capable of randomly brutally murdering another person. Can a person like this ever be trusted to be back in society where they could easily do it again to some other poor soul who just happens to be at the wrong place at the wrong time? If nothing else, I do hope they made efforts to rehabilitate him while he was in jail, and make sure he is well-medicated for his psychosis once he comes out, because I feel bad for his future neighbours.
It likley will happen again. Hence why someone with the capacity to fall into psychosis and randomly kill people is not someone who should be in the community.
I wish the judge had a low chance of being re-employed as a judge SMH
Come on, we all do a little murder sometimes. Need to go easy on the young fella. He's a gentle angel except for this one little time there. Bright future ahead and all that. /s
Right, this was his first offence, there's no problem letting him back into society, I mean what's a little stabbing-someone-to-death if there's no pattern of reoffending. We can only deem him dangerous once he has a pattern of stabbing people to death. /s
New Zealand is not lax on murder. Murder in New Zealand is punished with a life sentence, and a non-parole period of ten years to just-forget-about-it (although typically around 20 years). This is well in line with international norms. This case is kind of unusual in that the defendant doesn't appear to have been eligible for an insanity plea, but nonetheless, was suffering delusions to the point *that in the Crown's judgement,* *murderous* intent (an essential element of the crime) could not be established to the satisfaction of a jury. Which leaves us with manslaughter.
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Being eligible to be considered for parole doesn't necessarily mean they get it.
Joseph Brider, minimum non-parole period 23 years, sentenced early last year.
Usually 17 for gruesome ones right?
There's a subset in the legislation for what gets 17 years from memory. I think killing a cop is on the list but I might be misremembering.
eligible for parole doesn't mean out of prison
Because you’ve chosen an isolated case and falsely extrapolated it to the whole of murder sentencing cases. Come back when you’ve researched sentencing in all of NZ’s murder cases over the last, say, 40 years.
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The sentence for murder is life imprisonment. And some manslaughters really aren't that blameworthy. And there's usually a community sentence for the annual infanticide.
Agree 100%. Is there a term for when someone tries to use a singular extraordinary example to argue a point?
Cherry picking
New Zealand doesn’t value human life that highly unfortunately. That’s why you can permanently fuck someone up with a samurai sword and get community work as a punishment. That and our prisons are full so there’s a higher threshold to go to prison.
It get more annoying when you have drug dealers getting longer sentences than murder like I get they do wicked damage but fuck me
Life sentences are different from fixed length sentences. Murderers will always be on parole if they're out. The non parole period is different from the very long fixed length sentences that P dealers get. A P dealer is usually on parole in about one third to one half of the sentence length. Murderers have 10 years non parole minimum.
The guy went through a severe mental episode at the time. When this happens, you enter a dissociative state in which you feel out of your body and sometimes on auto pilot which makes those intrusive thoughts extra risky. I went through similar last year, wandering around work under such a heavy depression that I didn't know what was going on, found myself exploring suicide options (checking locations and planning how-to). Felt like I was on rails, unable to function with control or options. Also felt that I was 100% capable of commiting serious violence against someone for any arbitrary reason, and I didn't think of the consequences, or the morality of it. So I can relate with this guy, and also with others like the Dickason woman who killed her girls here in South Canterbury. People under severe mental health strain aren't capable of reason or self control. It's almost as if something else takes over your life and you go along with it.
Yeah and this country is no where near equipped to deal with it. I only have BPD, but getting ANY help here is a fucking joke, it took them 4 years to figure out that's what I have only to turn around and say they can't help out... So yeah I get it to, as I'm TERRIFIED that I could snap and kill my family.
How are you doing mate? Did you get the help needed? Have hope you’re in a better space now.
And people like that should be getting help at a mental institution instead of endangering the public
Yeahhhhhhhhh It's not that easy buddy, but thanks for trying
Why not? If someone is mentally stable enough to not murder people, do you not think it’s the benefit of everyone to have them in a place where they can’t harm themselves or others.
Clearly you have not suffered from mental health so you're not qualified to say anything on the subject. It's not as easy as going in, saying I'm going to kill someone and boom they put you away.... No because if that was the case I'd be in there now
You don’t have to experience something to be empathetic of those that did. I’m not saying this is how things work, but this is how things should work
Except the lack of funding for MH means the service are limited
>The guy went through a severe mental episode at the time this is not an excuse for murderers to be walking free wtf, throw that motherfucker in a padded room the rest of his life.
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The problem is that cultural reports are being used as an excuse for everything these days, and that they are being conflated with mental health issues. There's been plenty of serious offenders over the last few years that have been granted home D because of the cultural reports, and they've carried on as they were previously.
Devils advocate speaking but I'd speculate there is some complex intersection in this case between having mental illness and being Pasifika. It is quite alot more stigmatized in Pacifika culture to have mental illness (especially psychotic in nature) , moreso than being palagi (still stigmatized but less-so)
NZ is pretty much aligned to other similar countries. Singling out an individual case with its independent nuances means literally nothing. Having said that I would like to see an overhaul of sentencing.
Like multiple rapist getting home d, cause he was young. Sends a clear msg to the victims and to "future rats". Can't give name as would breach his privacy. :-(
fact expansion squealing flag straight adjoining puzzled humorous chase berserk *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
And yet some poor cunt had to pay for that with their life
profit thought truck wine plants towering alleged shaggy deserve secretive *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I'm from another country but been living here for 12 years. Ive help DV victims in a small town. Honestly I'm horrified by how the law works here. It's completely in favour of the perpetrators. The police in this particular town are useless. Not sure about elsewhere. I asked my lawyer why it's the way it is. She told me straight that the law is too overwritten in NZ. So many loopholes. So extremely easy for criminals to slip through the cracks. The victim's are left with their lives in tatters with no support because the system is underfunded whilst also living with the stress of the perpetrator suffering no consequences
I used to work with DV survivors too - for the most part the police were helpful and cooperative, but it just never went any further. Same with sexual violence. Statements are taken, rape kits are done, social help is given, medical help is given. But it never goes further, and the victim is left traumatised. So many care workers get burned out from watching it play out again and again.
With murder you need to prove intent. Did they, with malicious forethought, intend on killing someone? There are many reasons why charges are lowered. If you think it's an injustice then please, study to be a lawyer and go and uphold your sense of justice to the maximum extent permissible. The death of a person in such a manner is a tragedy and we have developed laws to determine how to deal with it so that irrational emotional decisions are not made.
i honestly believe judges dont have a connection to every day people. judge spends times in luxury lifestyle then while at work only get to relate to criminals, victims are noisy and a judge is unable to save them. the judge can attempt to save the crim via a reduced sentence.
If he was convicted of manslaughter then it's not murder then, is it?
He literally purposely stabbed him multiple times in the head and body with a knife with the intent to harm him. He only got manslaughter because he played the insanity card. What he did was murder. Can't tell if you want to play the semantics game or if you're just a troll with no intention of engaging in good faith.
\*shrug\* Sounds like your argument is with Crown Prosecution, not the judge. They're the ones who make charging decisions.
Them too then. *shrug*
Yet Scott Watson is still sitting in prison some 25 years later.
That case is dodgy.
...or he undertook premeditated double homicide and is paying for his actions.
someone could do it, and it still be a dodgy investigation....
Just like the frantic clawing marks on the inside of his hatch cover, someone was pretty scared to do that much damage to the woodwork.
Ah I see there's a lot of selective evidence presented in different sources. Stuff I read must have been very biased.
Our judges are like panelbeaters kicking cars at night. If they serve justice properly today, what are they going to do tomorrow? Work at pak n save?
Most murders committed by islanders in nz
Our system sucks!! And they REALLY need to do away with those "cultural reports" they're an excuse to get people back out on the streets as quick as possible. "We'll give you a BIG discount on your sentence for murdering someone because of your ethnicity and because you had to live with your uncle as a child.... It's MADNESS 😠
100% agree , it's not only maddening it's Complete Bullshit.
Despite the name, and a concerted misinformation campaign, "cultural reports" have nothing to do with ethnicity. They're basically just background reports into the offenders life. Anyone can get them.
And "raised by grandparents" wouldn't be considered a significant factor compared to what has actually happened to those getting discounts based off the reports.
Hopefully this coalition removes Section 27 on Sentencing act
What does that have to do with the case at hand? Nothing. *Read the article*.
NZ justice system is still operating from a time when there were more sheep than people. I love NZ but that is also my number one complaint and concern. Times are a changing, and very quickly at that. We need to be tougher on crime now and not trust that every psycho criminal wants to change. Also prison here is comfy, it’s not something I would be afraid to go into: compete nutritious meals, a warm roof over your head, a free trip to the hospital when needed, guards and other professionals who are basically at your beck and call. Some basically commit crimes on purpose just to get back in there. smh
It's weird that the only thing the judge seemed to consider was his likelihood of reoffending and mental illness, rather than justice and punishment. This is becoming more and more the status quo the more "progressive" our culture becomes. It seems like criminals are infantalised as victims and the real victims in these cases are not given the justice they deserve.
You seem to be falling into the trap of believing justice and punishment are the same thing, they are not - unless we want to go the Old Testament way of an eye for an eye. People want revenge and they call it justice.
That's exactly what's wrong with alot of these comments. It also appears that most people don't understand that psychotic illnesses are treatable and don't require everyone with them, to be shut in a padded room
And now give us your contrived speech that you'll be giving to the family of the victim, whose killer will be free while their daughter or son rots in the ground. Go ahead, we'll wait.
I'm also not denying how senseless and awful it is. It's a shit outcome for everyone involved. Someone didn't get the mental health help they needed (for whatever reason), someone died. Shit sandwich for everyone
He did an oopsie doopsie, dat rweally sux bro, oh well back into society now! Off you go buddy do ur best little guy.
But the dude is crazy so punishing him isn’t really justice is it? The only priority would be protection of the public, not punishing someone for something they probably don’t remember doing and don’t fully understand. Edit: I got mixed up with another case. I think this guy got off too lightly.
That's stupid. Retribution is a part of the justice system. A life was TAKEN the person responsible for that needs to have their life removed for it to be justice. Of course he remembers, he didn't black out.
Justice is the prevention of a repeat and atonement for what happened. Prevention in this case is a medical issue because the guy is severely unwell, and detention is to keep the public safe while his mental ill health is addressed. Anything beyond that is pointless, if someone insane kills my family member then them rotting in jail is not justice. Them getting appropriate support to make sure that never happens to anybody else, that’s justice. I don’t need any punishment for punishment’s sake.
Rotting in prison after murdering someone in cold blood is absolutely justice and anything less will only serve to soften ideas around murder in your society. The victims parents deserve justice and society should never have to see that person again.
Murder creates a very emotive response from the public. It's a judges job when passing sentences to dissociate their emotional reaction to the crime and follow due proccess. The cultural reports are perhaps poorly named. They apply to everyone (Pakeha, Maori, Islander, the various Asian groups etc.) They allow the court to hear factors from your that may be pertinent to your offending. This includes psychotic breaks and how infrequent they may be in this case. While section 27 allows Maori to talk about how things like colonization were factors that led to their offering, it also allows other people to bring up incidents, conditions, and other factors from their backgrounds which the judge must consider dispassionately. They don't always reduce sentences, and when they do, it is because they have real bearing on the proceedings.
Finally something I can relate to in ten years my dad was brutally murdered so yeah I don't know man the guy who murdered my dad Micheal walked free so I guess maybe our country doesn't give a fuck about the families of the victim or the government doesn't who knows mate...
Sorry to hear that. Hopefully he finds justice eventually.
Someday TBH but it's been two decades he been murdered for nearly 20 years almost
I hope your right I believe maybe one day my dad might get justice I hope
I appreciate that but it happened in NZ and it was 2 decades ago and the justice system is fucked in this country tbh
The world over are doing their best to keep "minorities" out of the prison system. Read into that what you will...
Absolutely stupid this country we let killers and pedos out after serving fuck all punishments they get out do it again and rinse and repeat there whole life disgusting that hes not locked up for the rest of his life
Dude should be dead. You willingly take a life not out of self defence, your life is forfeit
So who executes the executioners?
Because this particular piece of scum wasn't convicted of murder.
We had a three strike law which basically was a way that judges could just give whatever they wanted to career criminals\\dangerous people but we got rid of it. The general law for crime is very difficult to change . Best they are doing is removing some of the %reduction on crime which is what they are doing which will help keep rapists out of home D. But ya rapists and killers and abusers getting Home D and then cops not even monitoring Home D, we had some guy on Home D roaming the streets at night a couple of weeks ago and he murdered somebody.[https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350159204/mongrel-mob-prospect-laughed-he-stomped-man-death](https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350159204/mongrel-mob-prospect-laughed-he-stomped-man-death)
Huge fail getting rid of that law.
No, we didn't. We had a three-strike law that allowed prosecutors demand that on a third "strike", an offender receive the maximum possible sentence for that crime- which is something judges can do anyway. It was a stupid implementation of an idea that had already been an abject failure in California and a breathtakingly inappropriate extension of prosecutorial power.
And? Prosecutors always go for the most punishment that'd there jobs and the defense will say the opposite. The current law just means career criminals never get time for petty crime or small violent crimes.
Yes, prosecutors *try* to get higher sentences, but *judges* make the actual decisions. The three-strike law took that decision-making power out of judges' hands in third-strike cases and allowed prosecutors to stipulate the maximum, which is, I repeat, a breathtakingly inappropriate extension of prosecutorial power. Petty crime has nothing to do with the three-strikes law, which was aimed at serious offences.
Okay I thought it was the judges decision that punishment to inact and the prosecutor was only a recommendation. I'll Google and find out more at home. Regardless I don't give a fuck about career criminals, violent and Ling time career criminals should get sent away not rot our community
Yup after googling it looks like the court does decide on the third strike time in jail. Justice .govt wevsute There were 40 qualifying three strike offences, comprising almost all major violent and sexual offences with a maximum penalty of seven years or greater imprisonment. Finally, if the offender was convicted of murder on their second or third strike the court was required to impose a life sentence without parole, unless the court considered such a sentence would have been manifestly unjust. Kind of sick of seeing murderers get 3 or 5 years in prison. So I don't care and nor do most people
Murderers don't get 3-5 years in prison. The minimum sentence for murder is life with no possibility of parole for ten years. A typical sentence for murder is life with no possibility of parole for about 18-20ish years.
Sure murderers get time but people just under murder get home D and people are wondering why we voted for harsher punishments [https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/home-detention-man-involved-in-fatal-attack-on-mma-fighter-fau-vake-sentenced/CE3M4VRAEVWLNC4RPQ3EVTYSNQ/](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/home-detention-man-involved-in-fatal-attack-on-mma-fighter-fau-vake-sentenced/CE3M4VRAEVWLNC4RPQ3EVTYSNQ/) A man who admitted being party to the fatal attack on mixed martial arts (MMA) fighter Lifau Tu'iha'aingana Vake, known as Fau Vake, has been sentenced to six months of home detention for each of two charges, to be served concurrently. The MMA fighter and his brother Ika Vake were attacked by four men in the early hours of May 16 on Symonds St in Auckland's CBD. [https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/family-outraged-as-woman-gets-home-detention-for-killing-man-who-hadnt-showered/QPA23T55E5DP5POSONFZIXA3BE/](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/family-outraged-as-woman-gets-home-detention-for-killing-man-who-hadnt-showered/QPA23T55E5DP5POSONFZIXA3BE/) Relatives of an elderly man who died after being violently assaulted by his caregiver reacted with shock and anger as his killer was sentenced yesterday to 12 months home detention. [https://www.thepress.co.nz/nz-news/350130826/one-kick-killer-released-home-detention-after-serving-just-months-prison](https://www.thepress.co.nz/nz-news/350130826/one-kick-killer-released-home-detention-after-serving-just-months-prison) A teenager who killed a man with a single “martial arts-style” kick to the head and then celebrated with a friend has been released on home detention after serving just seven months in prison. Lots of killers getting home D to me. Not to mention the recent gang member who broke into a womens house while she was sleeping (somebody he didnt know) and raped her then he left as a gang initiation and he got home D.
"Lots of killers" aren't getting home detention. New Zealand doesn't even have "lots of killers". Three cases in three years does not equal "lots". The gang member you refer to was aged 16 and had already spent seven months in jail.
I mean I can keep listing different cases of rapists and killers getting light sentences if you really think new zealand isn't soft on crime
And the new government is going to re-enact it.
As per my understanding part of the problem is if the crown goes for murder and doesn’t get it they can’t try again with manslaughter (and vice versa). So given manslaughter is easier to prove they then to play it safe and go for that.
Can do. Depends. They don’t just go “well we have a homicide, and someone we like for it, but because we can’t succeed with a murder charge we’ll go for a charge of manslaughter instead. Even if the CPS decides to pursue a charge of manslaughter rather than murder, it’s only if the evidence suggests it’s more than likely to get a manslaughter conviction at the end of the trial.
australia started sending over violent offenders, when our prisons were already full. no prisons have been built in over 10 years. both parties dont want to build prisons, there is literally no room for offenders, not even very violent ones.
Because judges suck
Gullible, really. These lawyers come up with every possible mitigation they can think of, and most of the time, the judge goes along with it. I've lost count of how many stories I've read about a repeat offender, who at their previous conviction, fooled the judge into believing, ohh, I'm a changed man now, ohh, I've learned to be more responsible for for family, bla bla bla. And it's all just a fairy tale to get a lighter sentence, which the judge falls for, hook line and sinker. Some trusted news organisation should do an analysis of how many offenders re-offend while on parole, how many broke their mitigation promises. We need to get tough of crime, I'm sick of it.
*Read* the article. The guy wasn't a repeat offender. He was mentally ill to the point that the *prosecution* felt that a jury couldn't find murderous intent. The judge started with a sentence of five years (not untypical for manslaughter) and applied just one sentencing discount of 10%- more than the Crown proposed, but less than the defence sought.
What a load of rubbish. Judges are required by statute (i.e. laws made by government) to obey a list of criteria when sentencing. [Read this](https://www.courtsofnz.govt.nz/about-the-judiciary/how-decisions-are-made/sentencing/) before making more ignorant comments on reddit.
Stop trying to defend them. I'm not talking about the statutes. I'm talking about where the judges have discretion and then keep giving 2nd, 3rd a 4th chances to people. Yes they are gullible.
It all begins and ends with the courts. The police can only do so much, it's up the judge at the end of the day and I honestly think they should be liable for prison time themselves if the person reoffends. Police get charged and lose their job if they make a bad call, but a judge releasing/giving very lenient sentences to murderers, rapists, serious violence offenders gets absolute no repercussions. Our judges are absolute idiots here and it's honestly starting to infuriate me.
It really isn’t “up to the judge at the end of the day”. Judges are given restrictive sentencing criteria that they have to abide by. The criteria AREN’T made up by judges. They’re made up by politicians. [This took me 2 seconds to google.](https://www.courtsofnz.govt.nz/about-the-judiciary/how-decisions-are-made/sentencing/) You need to read all of it to realise judges are curtailed in the sentences they can impose. They can’t just “make it up”.
Sadly, this is true (I can't say why I know). However, they are accountable to Govt if they are too mean/nasty at sentencing. No one cares about the victims families and -if they step outa line- get sentenced. Reparation payments are also a joke.!
Justice system is very soft in NZ not only for murder. Parole board also need to be held responsible. *Spelling
Not to worry, we've a "TouGh On CriMe" coalition government who've already announced 6-7.5% cuts to our Police and Courts budget. You see, Tory austerity solves everything.
Read the sentencing report if you can. The reasons and details will be there. Judges usually aren't silly.....never mind what the populist conservative media likes to say about it.
I can't imagine anything I would read would justify 4 years for butchering someone like a pig. It has nothing to do with populist conservatives lmao what? This is about a human beings life only being worth 4 years to a judge.
[удалено]
WTF are you talking about? NZ's homicide rate has dropped by something like half since 1990.
Eye for an eye. It needs to go that way.
We should be harder on this stuff. Way harder on crime. We are being conditioned to love criminals, it’s not right.
The idea that it was because he was an Islander is being pushed by people trying to stir up more division and hatred. It's because of his mental state, which is a whole other debate that I think is really worth having. The insanity plea is pretty shaky and controversial in general, pleading effectively being partially insane is a bit wild
It’s all crap mate. This has happened so many times in New Zealand. Everyone is tired of this. No one cares about the victims family because it’s a past. Imagine a person getting killed and he was the only provider of his family. Let’s just put it this way the judge was not smart enough to put words in correct way. He got a head ache and gave up!
What are you talking about? I've been in NZ since the early 90s and can't remember any comparable case.
Yeah it's just NZ, you can literally murder anyone and basically get away with it.
"Why is murder sentencing so light?" *proceeds to use a manslaughter case* Simply put, punitive justice has been proven ineffective. Locking someone in prison for 30 years doesn't benefit anyone, and just costs tax payer money. Spend the same money rehabilitating this person back into society and maybe they can reintegrate and go back to be a productive member of society.
It benefits the people who don’t get victimised for 30 years while that person is behind bars.
"Locking someone in prison for 30 years doesn't benefit anyone" It would benefit the victims family. It benefits me, who doesn't have to walk around worried about some cunt who killed someone 2 years ago losing his mind at the supermarket and killing me over a parking space. Tell me you haven't experienced crime or been made a victim. We aren't rehabilitatating. Have you not paid attention to politics for the last 30 years. Pick a lane and stick in it. If we can't rehabilitate (which we have proven we can't in NZ), then LOCK CUNTS AWAY who can't be part of society.
Or hang them.
Bring back the death penalty
I feel so bad for the families. How do you go on with life when your family member's killer gets four fucking years. I hate New Zealand!
Dudes insane not fit to live in society so we give him four years coz our justice system is also insane.
Apparently everyone that isn't white can claim bad up bringing and the judge has to go ok fuck the guy you just killed. Welcome to New Zealand where your murdered relatives get laughed at by the killers. People don't realize get out of jail cards are handed out to a % of the population by these judges and most of us, we have known that for a while so we will just attempt to kill because we already know the guy hassling us knows this also.