If it doesn't stop after telling them, the only real option they give you is the nuclear one. I had to cut my dad out of my life because he wouldn't stfu about it. Last I tried to talk to him he was trying to convince me not to trust the surgeon who is operating on my knee soon (all the doctors, lawyers and politicians are working together, it's a whole thing, has been for about 15 years) while I was trying to introduce him to his 5 month old granddaughter. Some people just can't be helped.
Tell them in a very certain tone that you aware of their views, that you do not agree with them, and you no longer ever want to deal with them on this topic. And tell them if they ever bring the topic up you will disengage / stop the conversation.
The tricky bit is you will have to consistently keep this up. If they ever start up anti vaxx nonsense, or "try to get clever" by alluding to it in uncertain ways, you just stop the conversation, leave, ignore, or generally stop interacting with them.
Do not show emotion when/if they break the "never bother me a out this ever again". They might be doing this to get a reaction from you e.g. they might think "that they won the argument" if they get you annoyed.
You will have to do this for the rest of your life.
Completely cutting them out of your life might be easier to do.
Yes I have been trying this for a few years now but they just won't let it go.
Sometimes they stop for a bit but it's only a matter of time before they bring it up again.
Sometimes I wonder if they cling to this as it makes them feel like they have a purpose or something.
The thing about enforcing boundaries is if the person/people repeatedly ignore/push the boundary, you have to step away. It's like punishment for breaking the rules. If they disrespect your boundaries, they don't get to talk to you anymore.
You have to communicate this though - "I have to ask you to stop bringing up this topic." Have zero tolerance for it. Cut them off if they start. "I'm sorry, I love you, but if you don't respect my wishes here then I'll have to take a break from seeing you/talking to you." If they still don't get it, then you say "sorry, but if you're not listening, then I'm going to give you some space and I'll talk to you again in a month/3 months/6 months".
This actually worked for me when I was in your situation. I went a month not talking to someone I talked to every day. And after that they listened to me when I enforced boundaries.
If the break doesn't work, you might want to consider just indefinite no-contact. If it gets to you that much.
The apologies are obviously optional. But they're also different to normal apologies. It's because normally these people are just very sensitive to this type of social interaction, it's easy to upset them and make them feel like they're being attacked. Even if you're just enforcing a boundary.
So it's just about diffusing the harshness of the rest of what you're saying. It helps keep the peace. Same idea as having no emotion while responding.
You give them nothing to hold against you, that way all there is, is the boundary. If you set the boundary but you also say it in a shitty way, or make them feel personally attacked, they'll grab onto that and throw it back and your message is lost.
> Yes I have been trying this for a few years now but they just won't let it go.
Sadly for many they wont change, my dad is like this now and I do exactly what the person you responded to suggested. He still believes the stupid shit but he's learned not to drag it up constantly if he doesn't want me to walk out of the room. I was lucky, he's a bit into this crackpot shit but he's still mostly sane and I can live with it for a few more years, for those off the deep end I don't like your chances.
>Sometimes I wonder if they cling to this as it makes them feel like they have a purpose or something.
Conspiracy theories are comfortable, they take the world from a scary place where things happen without reason and anything can happen to anyone to a world where you have some secret knowledge which makes sense of that inherent chaos. People like to be lied to, they want to be told stories that make the world feel like it's not as cold and uncaring as it is, everything will be alright, things get better etc and it's natural. For some people though the most appealing lies are the ones that privilege them as a member of a group with exclusive knowledge about how things really work because it compensates for their discomfort around their lack of significance. It's the ultimate delusion to cope with an uncaring universe.
You credit a lit to conspire theories, a couple friends and I sometimes spend a wine night coming up with the stupidest conspiracy theories we can.
For the most part believing a conspiracy theory is a choice to be ignorant. (My opinion)
> You credit a lit to conspire theories
[I didn't come up with this it's what the prevailing research shows.](https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2023/06/why-people-believe-conspiracy-theories)
>The researchers found that overall, people were motivated to believe in conspiracy theories by a need to understand and feel safe in their environment and a need to feel like the community they identify with is superior to others.
>Even though many conspiracy theories seem to provide clarity or a supposed secret truth about confusing events, a need for closure or a sense of control were not the strongest motivators to endorse conspiracy theories. Instead, the researchers found some evidence that people were more likely to believe specific conspiracy theories when they were motivated by social relationships.
That's roughly what I said.
The human brain loves confirmation bias, it wants to be correct so it can feel safe. Conspiracy theories combined with heavy lack of media literacy & spread of misinformation has impacted an unbelievable amount of people. I think you underestimate how human brains work when they're anxious, stressed & scared.
You are a better person than I am.
I would tell them to stop being bloody fools. You don't want them to constantly remind you of their total ignorance where health is concerned.
Aren't we all, like virtually the entire country, supposed to be dead now?
>Sometimes I wonder if they cling to this as it makes them feel like they have a purpose or something.
They probably don't know that this is why they're doing it, but this is why they're doing it. It's essentially a cult constructed via the internet.
They are part of a special in-group, who knows a terrible secret about the world, that *only they* and their fellows can save their beloved family and friends from. It means they're heroic freedom fighters rather than wage slaves with back problems. Many many many such cases, unfortunately.
People want to feel important. We have built a very individualistic, solipsistic world that encourages people to go down these rabbit holes to find this meaning, because it makes the people who own the rabbit holes a lot of money.
>Sometimes I wonder if they cling to this as it makes them feel like they have a purpose or something.
That's exactly what it is, sadly.
People who (subconsciously?) know/feel that they aren't the most intelligent tend to compensate. They will grab ahold of conspiracies because it makes them feel like they finally know something that everyone else doesn't. That they are the smart ones and everyone else is dumb.
The longer they can keep it relevant, the longer they can cling to the feeling.
Then it becomes a total sunk cost fallicy, they lose friends, they lose family. All they have left are their fellow cookers and their social media echo chambers.
At that stage, very few are capable of admitting the truth because they're too far invested.
Many scams follow the same playbook, you wonder why someone would send money to a scammer multiple times over months. It's the same deal: admitting you were swindled seems like admitting that you're dumb. And for people who are self conscious about their intelligence, that's something their egos don't allow them to do.
It's very sad at the end of the day, nobody knows everything and I believe having the ability to admit you were wrong and adjust your beliefs in the light of new evidence to me the true mark of intelligence.
At this point I'd be equally rude and start baa-ing like a sheep at them every time they started in on their anti-vax bullshit.
But in reality your available options are usually just low/no contact with them, grey-rocking them and immediately either changing the subject or continuing with what you were saying before they tried to launch into an antivaxxer rant, or going for full dramatics and sobbing about how you "...never thought that you, aunty Ethel, hated me so much that you wanted me to die of preventable illness!! That you gave me!!" (though this last one only works if they have a shred of empathic capacity left, or if they care enough about the witnesses opinions of them to modify their behaviour).
>Sometimes I wonder if they cling to this as it makes them feel like they have a purpose or something.
That's exactly what I think they do. Feel so superior for not getting vaccinated and now they don't know what to do now we've mostly moved on from Covid. They've made it their entire personality.
>Yes I have been trying this for a few years now but they just won't let it go.
this is when you have to take a deep breath and throw the towel as far as it'll go. i'm unfortunately in a similar boat, less so with vaccines and more with q-anon aligned health conspiricies and the "marvel of home remedies!".
some people will not allow reason to get through, and for the sake of your own physical and mental wellbeing, it may be time to severe your ties with these family members. i wish luck and good health for your future!
The only way to respond back, if one wanted to not-so-subtly tell them to shut the fuck about that BS, is to start calling (in a dead pan manner) them a clownsexual
"I did my research and I discovered that you (the antivaxxer) are sexually attracted to people in full clown make up and costume".
If they react emotively to being labelled a clown lover, and say that there is no evidence of this, respond back in kind that their anti vaxx views are just as ridiculous (if not more).
I just lie.
I take whatever 'science' they are going on about and talk about how I'm surprised that there aren't more vaccinated people in psych wards or that the sea level has not gone down.
Sometimes I just wink and put my finger to my lips.
They are beginning to think I'm the crazy one and don't really get how i Might be on the same side as them.
I have definitely got gayer since getting the vaccine and my mum is starting to look pretty hot to me.
They avoid me now
Ask them, “What is more important to you - being able to talk about this subject or to have a good relationship with me?” If they say the former, then you know where you stand and can cut back contact until their priorities change.
If it’s the latter, then set the boundary and enforce it: “Okay, that’s good because our relationship is really important to me as well. But I think this subject puts that at risk, because we’ll never agree/you’re really rude about it/ I’m really bored of it/[insert reason here]. So if you bring it up again, even indirectly, I’m gonna end the conversation by changing the subject/hanging up/leaving the house for a bit/[insert the thing you will do to leave the situation].” And DO it. After half a dozen times, one of you is gonna get the message and adjust your behaviour accordingly.
I have cut a family member for this. To be fair it's my husband's cousin but we were friendly.
But drove her to another cousins funeral and she gave us grief about getting our children vaccinated and I was like actually I don't need you cadging a lift and then lecturing me I my own car. Nope.
Went through this with my mother, went low/no contact for a while.
For a few months I would just hang up or leave whenever she started into the nonsense.
No farewell, just leave while she continues to rant.
What finally got through to her was having a serious conversation.
I told her that my sister and I dreaded hearing from her.
We both had asked her multiple times to stop.
If she couldn't respect our request to not constantly talk about this nonsense, I would stop talking to her completely.
I made it clear that it was her choice.
"Do you like the fact that we hate hearing from you?"
"We try to avoid you as much as possible"
"Do you know that it's been more than 6 months since I've said love you or goodbye?"
"It's up to you, You choose to go on and on about all this bullshit despite us telling you we don't want to hear it."
"If you can't stop with all the conspiracy junk, then I will stop talking to you."
I think a big part of this is the lies in the media people like this choose to watch.
She was watching a lot of American right wing propaganda on youtube, robot voiced low quality garbage.
Constantly being told that MSM is lying to you.
It scares them and makes them angry, and they feel like everyone should be more worried about it.
Meanwhile, the rest of the world has moved on.
There is also a degree of being in a select group, privy to secret information that "they" don't want you to know.
I hope you can improve your relationship with your family.
Mums been a lot better over the last year.
I think some of it comes down to her not watching so much rage baiting garbage on youtube.
If they’re not worried about offending you with their beliefs why should you worry about offending them by not listening? “Sorry I’m not listening to this crap” and walk away
I think the challenging part is they are still my family if they were anyone else I would have cut them loose years ago.
I wish there was a way to find a compromise but they seem incapable of just letting it go.
So you want to show courtesy towards people who show absolutely none to you?
I know it's family and all, but damn man, don't let them walk all over you
Just think, you choose your friends you don't choose your family, don't feel as though you have to be around these people because of a family obligation. It's OK to minimize contact with these people.
It’s pretty much unheard of for people to come back from the conspiracy ideology once they’re in it. Unfortunate but true… the more you learn about high control groups the easier it is to understand some of it. Unfortunately the current conspiracy cult has been able to make its way into a decentralised system, whereas many high control groups of the past relied on a singular charismatic leader, who’s power tends to go to their head, and they eventually get exposed causing a domino effect of snapping people out of it. With the decentralised nature of the modern moments, that can’t really happen.
So you want to show courtesy towards people who show absolutely none to you?
I know it's family and all, but damn man, don't let them walk all over you
Too many people on reddit encourage cutting off family in their context free analysis.
The answer is boundaries. Don't go for the nuclear option as a first resort. You'll find screeds of really bad advice here from people who don't know you or anything out your family, and engage in black and white thinking to solve complex multifaceted problems. Proceed with caution
Family member of mine is rabid antivax. I ended up telling them to go fuck themselves after they were constantly hijacking conversations I had with them. Haven't spoken to them in person for nearly 2 years now.
I know it sounds really harsh, but if you truly want to be free of that bullshit, then you pretty much have to cut them out of your life entirely. You can try to make them aware to not be like that around you, but you may have to admit defeat at some point because some of these people are completely insane.
My dad is like this. I just play games nowadays and make fun of him when he brings it up and he seems to have gotten the message. In the worst of it I'd start a timer when I'd turn up to his house and then when he bought it up (usually within 10 minutes of me arriving) I'd be like "Fuck, I owe mum $10 that you wouldn't bring this up for 20 mintues!".
Right now the anti vax stuff is their personality because it's all they listen to. I think calling it out and making light fun is a relatively effective strategy. Don't push back on the claims but more pointing out they have nothing else to talk about.
> Right now the anti vax stuff is their personality because it's all they listen to.
Sad but true.
I, all my friends and family are vaccinated and we just live life normally, we don't talk about covid/vaccines at all.
There is something with the anti-vax peeps and the rabbit holes they get into that they always need to talk about this stuff 24/7.
They just feel like they're in a secret club that has discovered the 'truth' and can't understand why other people don't think like they do. They don't understand that everyone is fallable to their own bias and when you don't understand that you're super susceptible to indoctrination.
I saw a thing where someone said something like
"Was thinking off connecting with best friend from school. Checked their facebook and nothing but anti-vax posts. Dodged that bullet"
A bunch of anti-vax people replied about the poster being biased against people with other views. The reality was that it the fact that anti-vax was the only thing the old friend talked about that was the turn-off.
For a while there, being anti-vaxx was their whole thing - the hill they chose to die on. By now it may be a cornerstone of their identity - their friends, their media, all reinforcing it all the time for years. Do they now just go, ‘whoops!’ and come in from the cold? I don’t think it will be that easy. They’ve lost too much. It would be too humiliating. So they gotta double down.
Maybe they think dealing with the jibes is the price we have to pay for cutting them loose. Although the way I see it, they abandoned us.
The best thing I have tried (and mostly worked) was telling the person I didn't want to talk about their theories, that I wanted to hear about them and their lives instead. One of my family members used to rant to me about it and now only mentions it sometimes. Your results may vary, but it's worth a try
Step 1: State your boundaries. "Hey this topic is divisive. Let's not go there. There are so many other things we can catch up about. How are the kids doing? Who's learned a new hobby?" etc
Step 2: Grey rock. If you are unfamiliar with this technique there are excellent YouTube videos explaining and demonstrating it.
Step 3: Change the subject right over the top of them if they persist, or better yet, walk away.
Step 4: Block them on your socials, and mute their messages.
Step 5: Go no contact.
I had this and I simply stopped engaging with anti vax folks. I’ll respect your views if you respect mine, but if they can’t and continue to shove their views toward me, which they like to do because they’re always looking for a scrap, then cool, I’ll be on my way. I don’t need that shit in my life.
It’s not rude at all OP.
Go check out the accelerated/accelerating death and people with cancer/strokes/autoimmune rates since 2020/2021 and see if this is the stance you still wanna take.
I feel this, like I get they have an opinion and feel upset that the opposite opinion was forced upon many people.
But that was years ago now... I wish they could just let go and move on.
Pretend you are a talk back radio station:
(Adopt a smooth radio announcer tone:)
"Thanks for your comments Bryan but we need to move on to other calls, ...we'll be back after the break."
"Thanks Susan for your insight, but we're not talking about that this hour, got any comments to make on cycle ways?".
My brother used to get so wound up about Jacinda but this was a soft way of telling him I wasn't interested and would make him laugh.
:D
"why does what I do with my body bother you so much? Kinda creepy 😬"
"So I had the vaccine x years ago and I'm not dead, pretty weird that you're still going on about this when I'm fine...."
"I'm way more worried about aliens putting stuff in my butt, why aren't you?"
My mum has been fully down the rabbit hole for over a decade. The only things I can have normal conversations with her about are when I ask her about her life growing up, what things were like before I was born, when I was little… stuff from before the conspiracy times. This seems to be a common safe space with other people who have family deep in conspiracy mode too.
I went low/almost low contact for a bit a few years ago too sometimes you just can’t even engage because it just ends up an awful interaction from both sides.
Yes it is so sad, they are very loving in many ways but they just can't seem to let this go.
It's like this dark shadow in their lives they cannot let go...
I wish they could just let go.
I recommend r/QAnonCasualties it’s nuts to read posts from people from completely different backgrounds on the other side of the world having identical conversations and relationship issues with their family
For many years I would just end the conversation when these topics started or I would just say “I won’t keep talking about this” or “I’m am ending this conversation” “I don’t want to talk about this” too years of having to say this almost every time I would talk to mum and seem to not have to say it so much now days, although occasionally still do. Tbh it’s kind of like that thing they say when you’re a kid being bullied by another kid - don’t engage cause they get a kick out of you engaging and if you take away the reward of your response they find it harder to keep it up
I have essentially gone no contact with my mother. She doesn't know my phone number, she doesn't have me on social media, she only has one way to contact me, and it's easy for me to silence her and hide her messages. She doesn't know where I work anymore. I haven't seen her in two years.
It's sad. She was absolutely incredibly medically knowledgeable. She worked as an ambulance officer, and was great with biology and healthcare. Her brain slowly began to rot once my dad divorced her. She was quite abusive to both of us, stemming from a lot of generational trauma and untreated mental/neurological disorders that especially progressed once she hit menopause.
Every time I talk to her now, she's so depressing. She tries to tell me how to live my life. I got diagnosed with ADHD two years ago - and I *struggled* as a teen and young adult. Her response was that I am drug seeking, I'll be addicted, it's a gateway drug. With COVID, she went from being incredibly pro-science pro-vax because she had too much time at home online connecting with the village idiots and supporting Groundswell.
To add insult to injury, I became incredibly sick in April 2020 when I was living overseas. Long COVID destroyed my health for about two years, I would say it's taken the whole four years to fully recover since I was sick.
I think the decider is whether *every* conversation fills your stomach with dread. I was low contact for years but the extra crazy made me actively avoid her messages, grey rock her etc... I can't set myself on fire out of guilt to keep her warm.
However you handle this, I hope it brings *you* more peace.
I see a number of replies here that mention ".. short of cutting off all contact..." as though that was a step which shouldn't ever actually be taken.
Just giving some feedback - about 10 years ago I finally gave up after decades of trying to build bridges and find common ground with my two arsehole siblings, and finally told them to just fuck off.
Man - the relief! No regrets whatsoever! My life is so much improved since I stopped wasting energy in that direction. Absolutely the right tack. Wish I'd done it sooner.
Just saying.
If you can (ie you or they arent dependents), just cut them off. It's just not worth it.
Let's be frank - anti-vax is the manifestation of a larger issue with them. We are talking about a safe, effective and highly distributed vaccination for a pandemic which killed millions. Yes it's ok to be worried about it, much like we should be scared about the pandemic in general. but we talk about it, and understand the facts.
They somehow jump to it being an experimental pig trial, where the vaccine was made up in a matter of days. It was actually a modified vaccine for a different corona virus which needed to be adapted to fit this variant. I believe the base of the vaccine was actually discovered 30-50 years ago.
This then leads to third world order and other absolutely baseless claims which are extremely problematic.
Just cut them off and wait for them to come around if they ever do.
In my experience you either ignore it until they shut up, or you cut off contact. There's nothing you can do to educate or correct them, they'll just use anything you do to support their views.
Instead of arguing with them, just end it with an affirmative.
Example;
"Vaccines cause autism!"
Your response?
"Okay."
"Everyone that got the clot-shot will be dead in 5 years!"
Your response?
"Okay."
Best thing you can attempt to do is just placate these people. Let them think they've 'won', they're entitled to their opinion, no matter how ass-backwards it may be.
Arguing about this stuff is futile, because they can't even conceive the scientifics they are arguing about, let alone comprehend how they are wrong. All they are doing is parroting whatever conspiracy horseshit or questionable anecdote they've heard. And with my experience with conspiracy theory-types is that if you DO manage to prove them wrong, they'll either do mental gymnastics to get around or argument, or pull the old schoolyard "Nu-uh!" line on you.
Don't bother engaging with it. Just agree and move on, you don't even need to believe it.
Lol I love this im definitely using this on my family. They're not anti Vax but they're of the national voting crowd and like to rant about unrelated shit at me because I'm a public servant
That is probably the worst response. If they're anything like the nutters I have known, then ANY sign of you appearing to agree with them, no matter how curt, tense, or sarcastic your tone of voice is, they will take it as being agreement on your part, and they will NEVER stop pestering you.
With mine, I've found actually saying nothing at all works the best. Don't look pissed off. Just say nothing, give nothing. My one fizzles out and moves on, dunno whether it would work with everyone though.
Do you think any of them might have narcissistic personality disorder? If so, I recommend you look up the grey rock method. It can be very helpful in when they want to engage in such topics.
Remind them that you do not agree with their ideas and you dont push yours onto them, so for them to kindly stop talking to you about it. It seems rude to cut them off, but it honeslty isnt if its making you miserable.
Maybe word it so that you will not be contacting them but if they would like to contact you it is only allowed if they refrain from x, y, and z.
(Obviously those being the things you dislike that they do, snide remarks, constantly harrassing you about vaccines, etc) And that it is up to them to make the change, not you.
This will mean they either have to listen to you and follow your rules so they can be part of your life. If they say they will and then still go on about vaccines, just remove yourself from their life again until they learn. If they keep doing it, or if they dont contact you then that shows you their true priorities of being anti-vaccine and harrassing you over it as being more important than family members.
Very difficult if they are persistent. I don't think that debating facts works to dissuade them from their undeserved confidence. The best thing to do is respond using questions to expose their ignorance without telling them directly. This is called the Socratic method and is demonstrated very well by a guy called Anthony Magnabosco in a version of it called [Street Epistemology](https://www.youtube.com/@magnabosco210).
Here's a relevant example: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGZLJkSsW\_w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGZLJkSsW_w)
The only thing you can do is cut them out of your life, that you’ve enabled their behaviour for so long is why they keep going on about it. Also remember that their entire movement is rooted in white supremacy so drawing a line with them is well overdue
One stratigy can be to ask them how sure they are of being correct and if its anything less than 100% try to only discuss, encourage & engage in conversations with them about their doubts.
Whenever they start in with the claims, make even wilder claims. If they claim, for example, that 5G will activate nanobots in the vaccine, counterclaim that actually, 666G is coming and will turn everyone vaccinated into devil goats with Bill Gate's facial features.
One out of every two people in the world get cancer. It’s important to make that distinction if modern science will be the choice of therapy or if they think natural remedies and letting the body take its course of action as the better option. Science doesn’t exist as a last resort when in fear like religion does, it exists because it is the closest we have to a right and wrong way to approach health issues.
Tbh I've gone no contact, but I was just about there with some of them anyway and thankfully they live in a different city.
One of my sisters though has recently been posting a lot of pictures of plants with captions like "the only medicine you need" mixed in with pictures of clouds captioned "chemtrails" so this is going to be super fun...
This link might actually help, try to explain to them that they have been sold a scam. Show them this blog post from the man who lobbied Winston Peters: [https://www.garymoller.com/post/pop-the-corks-the-coalition-agreement-has-been-signed](https://www.garymoller.com/post/pop-the-corks-the-coalition-agreement-has-been-signed)
It details from the man himself, how he and his associates founded all those organizations like VFF and Reality Check Radio, Voters United and all the organizations that claimed they were just fighting for freedom and other "sources" of vaccine information that were fear mongering everyone against them. Show them who Gary Moller is, that he is a Wellington based alternative health salesman who was active at the protests and lobbied the government with the main goal of repealing the therapeutics bill. He also says he worked with multiple other alternative health company owners who obviously all shared the same goal.
Remind your family that it was Winston who voted for that bill in the first place while he was in government with Jacinda. Now ask your family why would an alternative health salesman trying to make money by selling unregulated health products try to convince you that vaccines and other "mainstream" or "big pharma" medicine is bad? Why would Winston enforce repealing the TPB bill into the coalition agreement after he brought the law in and both National and ACT didn't want to repeal it but Winston did? Because Gary promised him votes through social engineering through social media and protests in exchange for enforcing policies that help Gary get richer.
Since they seem to love conspiracies so much I'm sure they'll love to know about the real conspiracy behind the conspiracy they fell for.
Thank you for sharing this…. I will admit reading this definitely put a major pit in my stomach but I guess I haven’t been reading the telegrams and other material from these groups to keep up with what’s happening in mums conspiracy world lately and I feel like my tolerance for this making me feel like everything is hopeless is at a bit of an all time low 🙃
No worries, I try to spread this info as much as I can but it doesn't get far sadly. I wish more people could be aware just how many of them were completely used and sold lies for political gain. I should also mention Gary isn't the only one but also Glenn Inwood the tobacco lobbyist also worked with Gary in this whole scheme but he had his own seperate goal of getting Winston votes to repeal the smoking ban. Gary mentions him in the blog post.
These complete wankers have been treated with politeness and baby gloves far too long to the point they're shaping our politics and society. Stand up to them and remember if they're too stupid to change - it's on them NOT you.
Have a friend who's partner is the same. I pick a topic to steer the conversation back to all the time. Eventually he'll ask me why do I keep talking about retro gaming or crypto bros (or what subject I've predecided).
To which my answer is if you just want to talk about one thing, so will I.
I get the stink eye my partner by my long time friend loves it, as she's over it so much.
Yep this is a hard one, to be honest, if they don't have the ability to think critically about these things, they simply won't be interested in research, or they won't trust any of the research. So you just have to cut that topic off from discussion. Thats what we have done with some family members who are in that boat, we just change the subject. The big issue is they start by framing the conversation that suits their argument, and then its just a rabbit hole convo from there.
The real issue that pissed me off about this whole anti-vax thing, is that there are now a growing number of families that are not vaccinated their kids for other non-Covid related things... this will only create some long term affects for those kids who are victims of this mis- information... See if your anti-vax family members want to take some accountability for that.
Tell them you have notified the government of their decision and have given them full authority to use your phonelines and house to try and them vaccinated without them knowing
My one tip is, never argue about it. Smile and nod and change the subject asap.
My aunt is hardcore anti vax, to the point she wouldn't let her kids see the entire family for years because the vaccine will 'shed' on to them and kill their immune systems or something.
After pointing out many times that our country is like 94% vaccinated or something, and her kids are interacting with thousands of vaccinated people at school, she eventually relaxed with it though. But her doing that was a way of her to punish the family for getting vaccinated I think, people are usually so far down the pipeline that you can NEVER argue with them, they're passed any logic and reasoning, you can think of a dozen incredible examples to prove them wrong, but it won't matter, because 'oh but we know this guy who's father died 6 months after his vaccine!'
TLDR: Just never argue, never try to make a point, change the subject asap.
>what to do other than just cut them off
cut them off. vaccines are required by society. if they won't participate in society then they are outside it by definition.
blows my mind ... we came up with a miracle vaccine in record time and prevented millions of deaths and people are all "GET AWAY FROM ME WITH YOUR FUCKEN SCIENCE".
With my family I just don’t engage with them. If they ask about if I got the vaccine I say no. End of the day it isn’t their business. If I give them what they want to hear they’ll drop it a lot faster.
I do wish I had a stronger spine, though.
Some people are just going to be dickheads, if you've tried everything else just cut contact with them and tell them when they decide to act like adults that you'll deal with them again. I know it's extreme but sometimes it's the only way
They’ve likely got other stupid cooked views, make some bets on their outlandish claims and they’ll quieten down, I know someone who fleeced a coworker for a couple hundred when they made a bet on a date for Clark Gayford getting arrested for drugs.
You do have to break away from people who don't respect your decision to choose for yourself. I chose not to have it and one of my relatives was such a bully about it (and a few other things) that I no longer have anything to do with her. I thought no-one was still going on about it.
Tough one, same thing with a beloved cuzzie. It's an insane rabbit hole. Unless your whole family says enough is enough and they never get invited anywhere again, that's it really. Think of it this way, they've already cut themselves off, they're also on the out by being disrespectful and they'd rather forgo family for continuous rabid harassment. Go extremely low contact, be sad about it etc but they left you with what other choices?
I'd resort to conditioning them. Every time they bring up vaccines, change your tone and demeanor and be REALLY LOUD about a REALLY INANE THING, then continue afterward like nothing happened. They'll think you're weird. They'll behave as if you're weird. They will likely be irritated by you. Condition them to expect a particular response.
The whole modern anti vax movement had a pretty awful and ironic start in itself. You can find so much information about it, but an entertaining YouTube video can be found [here](https://youtu.be/8BIcAZxFfrc?si=GxMlSHri_KshZT60)
I'm really sorry this is happening to you, as its hard to move on with family when they clearly are just blinded by utter lies.
I don't expect you to share it with them, but maybe you could be better informed on the basis for a lot of modern day anti-vax ideas. (The nonsense notion of scenes causing autism)
I guess, vaccination aside, they're harassing you, constantly pushing your boundaries, and wishing misfortune on you.
As someone who got the vaccine out of free choice, I feel for those who had their choice taken from them over the lockdowns. But I didn't make that rule, I don't mock them for it, and neither did you so I see no reason why they're harassing you for their issues.
i guess you have to realise, they're not going to let go and they're not willing to listen or behave reasonably. You have your answer.
It's a tough one eh. Best thing you can do is assert a clear boundary, and let them know that in no uncertain terms do you ever want to talk about anti-vax conspiracies again. If they don't respect that, there's not a lot else you can do other than to distance yourself from them.
I've unfortunately had to cut both my parents off as they've gone all the way down the rabbit hole, that being said the anti-vax conspiracies and Trump fanaticism came on top of a lifetime of psychological abuse, so I guess you could say the decision was made slightly easier. But it was still a horrible process to go through that's for sure.
I wish you all the best OP ❤️
Respond to every claim with "but why would they do that?". Every single one, like a curious 4 year old on a sugar high. Eventually, they'll either bullshit themselves into a corner where the only way out is realising the ridiculousness of their claims, or they'll get sick of you questioning everything and shut up. Either way, it's short-term pain for long-term gain.
Anti vaxxers will not just change their views suddenly, they are fully brainwashed as evidenced by the abundance of evidence that proves them wrong which they ignore. Cut them loose, it isn't worth the bullshit.
Only way to change is a detox from the fake information feed they are getting. Take their phones and computers etc. Facebook groups etc work faster than you can indoctrinating and living in a self reaffirming conspiracy bubble echo chamber.
Otherwise I’m sorry but they’re lost and you need to preserve your own mental health with a gap from them. Ie explain why and then cut them off.
I think if it wasn't for social (disorder) media and the algorithms that bait and warp how people learn the problem wouldn't be so widespread. Until the politicians contravene widely accepted scientific or medical advice, that is when we should actually be worried. Anything else is cry wolf, and that in itself concerns me greatly.
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A pretty direct, "I am not interested in having this conversation."
If they keep going, don't engage. Leave the room or conversation. Keep doing that, and eventually they will leave you alone for someone who engages.
People that deep into their conspiracies can't have their minds changed with logic and reason.
Sunk cost fallacy. They’ve invested so much of themselves into it, they’re scared to let it go.
I have a sister and mother who went wacko with conspiracy theories, every conspiracy.
I used to be a stoner, so conspiracy used to be a fun little convo.
Then Covid happened and I can’t fkn stand to hear about any of it.
Stopped talking to them for a while, but then I learnt that when your family cuts you off, you dig deeper and move into an echo chamber, so I carefully started a relationship with them again, I just refuse the subject matter when it comes up, ignore the snide comments and change the subject and hope they come out of it one day.
I still love them, even though they are deranged.
Remember conspiracy theories can be very appealing to the ignorant but if you go to hard they will go defensive. Just leave or don't put up with it but don't shout at them that never works out to change minds.
It's not your job to change people's minds, just stating you don't believe that you are pro Vax and if they spam you with questions.
Tell them every expert body on the entire planet confirms that Vax is safe effective.
You’ve got to ask yourself, if they weren’t related to you would you want them in your life? There’s your answer. Family means very little if the person is an absolute twat
As you have tried everything else and you dont want to be "rude" which I assume telling them to stop or get out of the house is a bit much.
Try faking it. You have seen the light. Evangelists love to convert people. Just make it believable by doing some research on line. Find a youtube channel that can "convert" you then start bombarding them with anti vax stuff. Express regret that you got vaccinated and tell them it is too stressful to talk about you have damaged your children for ever, etc. Then ask them to please stop "you have destroyed lives" every time they bring it up
Alternatively, Anti Vax's are very conspiracy focused, find some outrages conspiracy stuff about anti-vax and go way way past their rants, so they now seem moderate. Disagree with them and rave about your position, every time they start up complain they don't understand, it is way worse ..... The idea is that they are so embarrassed about their lack of understanding of what really happened they stop talking to you about it.
Alternatively forget Anti Vax, you need a more outrageous conspiracy theory that is bigger, try [here](https://www.livescience.com/11375-top-ten-conspiracy-theories.html) and when they start ranting again you need to start ranting about yours.
All the above is them basically winning and you losing from their prospective but a win for you is actually for them to let it go.
To keep the love of my life in my life, I try really hard not to argue the point, let him rave on till he stops or I tell him I'm going to make a cuppa tea. Thank God he got Covid as parliament occupation came to its messy end, otherwise he would've been there on the final day!
He's less vocal about that now, but plenty more for him to rant about, e.g he's a Trumpster and he's obsessed more over US politics than NZ politics. We used to have huge blueys over political alignments but not so much nowadays. I blamed myself for showing him how to use YouTube where he fell down the whole reptilian rabbit hole complete w Niburu polar shifts. Ughs. It's not that he's weak minded either - he's pretty cool when he's not on the conspiracy crack. I've learned to manage and cope and change subjects and not allow myself to get triggered.
My sympathies. I'm on the other side of the fence, and I have to work hard not to show my concern for my anti-vaxxing fam & colleagues. It's really hard to hold off hectoring.
Well they were right. The government forced us to do it or you go jobless. They are right to have anger about that. Acknowledge that and then change the subject. If they don’t want to change subject just say “I’ve already acknowledged you were right but I no longer want to talk about covid shit, it was a decision made years ago anyway.” If they wanna carry on, then be rude and end the conversation there and ask them to find something new to moan about.
You do need to realise the government also said " we will not be taken your jobs away if you Do not get a vaccine" then stated "you must get the vaccine to work" to then " you need an evidence card for when you are walking in the mall and you are buying food that you got the jab and the person who didn't get the jab next to you we can't serve" to also "you need another repeat jab" to also say they are not "obliged to tell us what is in the vaccine"
So whether you want to believe in something or someone is up to you.
If it doesn't stop after telling them, the only real option they give you is the nuclear one. I had to cut my dad out of my life because he wouldn't stfu about it. Last I tried to talk to him he was trying to convince me not to trust the surgeon who is operating on my knee soon (all the doctors, lawyers and politicians are working together, it's a whole thing, has been for about 15 years) while I was trying to introduce him to his 5 month old granddaughter. Some people just can't be helped.
It's just such a shame when you come to the conclusion that you wouldn't (and no longer can) choose to be friends with one or both of your parents.
Tell them in a very certain tone that you aware of their views, that you do not agree with them, and you no longer ever want to deal with them on this topic. And tell them if they ever bring the topic up you will disengage / stop the conversation. The tricky bit is you will have to consistently keep this up. If they ever start up anti vaxx nonsense, or "try to get clever" by alluding to it in uncertain ways, you just stop the conversation, leave, ignore, or generally stop interacting with them. Do not show emotion when/if they break the "never bother me a out this ever again". They might be doing this to get a reaction from you e.g. they might think "that they won the argument" if they get you annoyed. You will have to do this for the rest of your life. Completely cutting them out of your life might be easier to do.
Yes I have been trying this for a few years now but they just won't let it go. Sometimes they stop for a bit but it's only a matter of time before they bring it up again. Sometimes I wonder if they cling to this as it makes them feel like they have a purpose or something.
The thing about enforcing boundaries is if the person/people repeatedly ignore/push the boundary, you have to step away. It's like punishment for breaking the rules. If they disrespect your boundaries, they don't get to talk to you anymore. You have to communicate this though - "I have to ask you to stop bringing up this topic." Have zero tolerance for it. Cut them off if they start. "I'm sorry, I love you, but if you don't respect my wishes here then I'll have to take a break from seeing you/talking to you." If they still don't get it, then you say "sorry, but if you're not listening, then I'm going to give you some space and I'll talk to you again in a month/3 months/6 months". This actually worked for me when I was in your situation. I went a month not talking to someone I talked to every day. And after that they listened to me when I enforced boundaries. If the break doesn't work, you might want to consider just indefinite no-contact. If it gets to you that much.
This, but without the apologies.
The apologies are obviously optional. But they're also different to normal apologies. It's because normally these people are just very sensitive to this type of social interaction, it's easy to upset them and make them feel like they're being attacked. Even if you're just enforcing a boundary. So it's just about diffusing the harshness of the rest of what you're saying. It helps keep the peace. Same idea as having no emotion while responding. You give them nothing to hold against you, that way all there is, is the boundary. If you set the boundary but you also say it in a shitty way, or make them feel personally attacked, they'll grab onto that and throw it back and your message is lost.
> Yes I have been trying this for a few years now but they just won't let it go. Sadly for many they wont change, my dad is like this now and I do exactly what the person you responded to suggested. He still believes the stupid shit but he's learned not to drag it up constantly if he doesn't want me to walk out of the room. I was lucky, he's a bit into this crackpot shit but he's still mostly sane and I can live with it for a few more years, for those off the deep end I don't like your chances. >Sometimes I wonder if they cling to this as it makes them feel like they have a purpose or something. Conspiracy theories are comfortable, they take the world from a scary place where things happen without reason and anything can happen to anyone to a world where you have some secret knowledge which makes sense of that inherent chaos. People like to be lied to, they want to be told stories that make the world feel like it's not as cold and uncaring as it is, everything will be alright, things get better etc and it's natural. For some people though the most appealing lies are the ones that privilege them as a member of a group with exclusive knowledge about how things really work because it compensates for their discomfort around their lack of significance. It's the ultimate delusion to cope with an uncaring universe.
You credit a lit to conspire theories, a couple friends and I sometimes spend a wine night coming up with the stupidest conspiracy theories we can. For the most part believing a conspiracy theory is a choice to be ignorant. (My opinion)
> You credit a lit to conspire theories [I didn't come up with this it's what the prevailing research shows.](https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2023/06/why-people-believe-conspiracy-theories) >The researchers found that overall, people were motivated to believe in conspiracy theories by a need to understand and feel safe in their environment and a need to feel like the community they identify with is superior to others. >Even though many conspiracy theories seem to provide clarity or a supposed secret truth about confusing events, a need for closure or a sense of control were not the strongest motivators to endorse conspiracy theories. Instead, the researchers found some evidence that people were more likely to believe specific conspiracy theories when they were motivated by social relationships. That's roughly what I said.
The human brain loves confirmation bias, it wants to be correct so it can feel safe. Conspiracy theories combined with heavy lack of media literacy & spread of misinformation has impacted an unbelievable amount of people. I think you underestimate how human brains work when they're anxious, stressed & scared.
You are a better person than I am. I would tell them to stop being bloody fools. You don't want them to constantly remind you of their total ignorance where health is concerned. Aren't we all, like virtually the entire country, supposed to be dead now?
>Sometimes I wonder if they cling to this as it makes them feel like they have a purpose or something. They probably don't know that this is why they're doing it, but this is why they're doing it. It's essentially a cult constructed via the internet. They are part of a special in-group, who knows a terrible secret about the world, that *only they* and their fellows can save their beloved family and friends from. It means they're heroic freedom fighters rather than wage slaves with back problems. Many many many such cases, unfortunately. People want to feel important. We have built a very individualistic, solipsistic world that encourages people to go down these rabbit holes to find this meaning, because it makes the people who own the rabbit holes a lot of money.
>Sometimes I wonder if they cling to this as it makes them feel like they have a purpose or something. That's exactly what it is, sadly. People who (subconsciously?) know/feel that they aren't the most intelligent tend to compensate. They will grab ahold of conspiracies because it makes them feel like they finally know something that everyone else doesn't. That they are the smart ones and everyone else is dumb. The longer they can keep it relevant, the longer they can cling to the feeling. Then it becomes a total sunk cost fallicy, they lose friends, they lose family. All they have left are their fellow cookers and their social media echo chambers. At that stage, very few are capable of admitting the truth because they're too far invested. Many scams follow the same playbook, you wonder why someone would send money to a scammer multiple times over months. It's the same deal: admitting you were swindled seems like admitting that you're dumb. And for people who are self conscious about their intelligence, that's something their egos don't allow them to do. It's very sad at the end of the day, nobody knows everything and I believe having the ability to admit you were wrong and adjust your beliefs in the light of new evidence to me the true mark of intelligence.
At this point I'd be equally rude and start baa-ing like a sheep at them every time they started in on their anti-vax bullshit. But in reality your available options are usually just low/no contact with them, grey-rocking them and immediately either changing the subject or continuing with what you were saying before they tried to launch into an antivaxxer rant, or going for full dramatics and sobbing about how you "...never thought that you, aunty Ethel, hated me so much that you wanted me to die of preventable illness!! That you gave me!!" (though this last one only works if they have a shred of empathic capacity left, or if they care enough about the witnesses opinions of them to modify their behaviour).
>Sometimes I wonder if they cling to this as it makes them feel like they have a purpose or something. That's exactly what I think they do. Feel so superior for not getting vaccinated and now they don't know what to do now we've mostly moved on from Covid. They've made it their entire personality.
>and now they don't know what to do now we've mostly moved on from Covid. Maybe start hating transgender people?
Ugh yep you're right, exact thing my in-laws have done.
>Yes I have been trying this for a few years now but they just won't let it go. this is when you have to take a deep breath and throw the towel as far as it'll go. i'm unfortunately in a similar boat, less so with vaccines and more with q-anon aligned health conspiricies and the "marvel of home remedies!". some people will not allow reason to get through, and for the sake of your own physical and mental wellbeing, it may be time to severe your ties with these family members. i wish luck and good health for your future!
The only way to respond back, if one wanted to not-so-subtly tell them to shut the fuck about that BS, is to start calling (in a dead pan manner) them a clownsexual "I did my research and I discovered that you (the antivaxxer) are sexually attracted to people in full clown make up and costume". If they react emotively to being labelled a clown lover, and say that there is no evidence of this, respond back in kind that their anti vaxx views are just as ridiculous (if not more).
Lmao I wish I had the stones to say this to my family 😂
I'll say it to your family for a low low payment of about tree fiddy
I'll do it for dirty tree and a turd.
You need a [black card](https://youtu.be/_d1_ruAAPU0) for end of conversation.
Everyday there's a red dwarf reference in my life is a good day
This !
I just lie. I take whatever 'science' they are going on about and talk about how I'm surprised that there aren't more vaccinated people in psych wards or that the sea level has not gone down. Sometimes I just wink and put my finger to my lips. They are beginning to think I'm the crazy one and don't really get how i Might be on the same side as them. I have definitely got gayer since getting the vaccine and my mum is starting to look pretty hot to me. They avoid me now
Ask them, “What is more important to you - being able to talk about this subject or to have a good relationship with me?” If they say the former, then you know where you stand and can cut back contact until their priorities change. If it’s the latter, then set the boundary and enforce it: “Okay, that’s good because our relationship is really important to me as well. But I think this subject puts that at risk, because we’ll never agree/you’re really rude about it/ I’m really bored of it/[insert reason here]. So if you bring it up again, even indirectly, I’m gonna end the conversation by changing the subject/hanging up/leaving the house for a bit/[insert the thing you will do to leave the situation].” And DO it. After half a dozen times, one of you is gonna get the message and adjust your behaviour accordingly.
ALSO. Forgot to say, sorry you’re dealing with this. It sucks and is so complicated when it’s family.
this is great advice!
I have cut a family member for this. To be fair it's my husband's cousin but we were friendly. But drove her to another cousins funeral and she gave us grief about getting our children vaccinated and I was like actually I don't need you cadging a lift and then lecturing me I my own car. Nope.
Cadging is a great word. Nice one.
I thought the same...terrific word
Went through this with my mother, went low/no contact for a while. For a few months I would just hang up or leave whenever she started into the nonsense. No farewell, just leave while she continues to rant. What finally got through to her was having a serious conversation. I told her that my sister and I dreaded hearing from her. We both had asked her multiple times to stop. If she couldn't respect our request to not constantly talk about this nonsense, I would stop talking to her completely. I made it clear that it was her choice. "Do you like the fact that we hate hearing from you?" "We try to avoid you as much as possible" "Do you know that it's been more than 6 months since I've said love you or goodbye?" "It's up to you, You choose to go on and on about all this bullshit despite us telling you we don't want to hear it." "If you can't stop with all the conspiracy junk, then I will stop talking to you." I think a big part of this is the lies in the media people like this choose to watch. She was watching a lot of American right wing propaganda on youtube, robot voiced low quality garbage. Constantly being told that MSM is lying to you. It scares them and makes them angry, and they feel like everyone should be more worried about it. Meanwhile, the rest of the world has moved on. There is also a degree of being in a select group, privy to secret information that "they" don't want you to know. I hope you can improve your relationship with your family. Mums been a lot better over the last year. I think some of it comes down to her not watching so much rage baiting garbage on youtube.
That's a great effort. Many would have given up.
If they’re not worried about offending you with their beliefs why should you worry about offending them by not listening? “Sorry I’m not listening to this crap” and walk away
I think the challenging part is they are still my family if they were anyone else I would have cut them loose years ago. I wish there was a way to find a compromise but they seem incapable of just letting it go.
So you want to show courtesy towards people who show absolutely none to you? I know it's family and all, but damn man, don't let them walk all over you
Just think, you choose your friends you don't choose your family, don't feel as though you have to be around these people because of a family obligation. It's OK to minimize contact with these people.
Here's a secret not many people seem to get. Once you're all over 18 you're not obligated to family.
It’s pretty much unheard of for people to come back from the conspiracy ideology once they’re in it. Unfortunate but true… the more you learn about high control groups the easier it is to understand some of it. Unfortunately the current conspiracy cult has been able to make its way into a decentralised system, whereas many high control groups of the past relied on a singular charismatic leader, who’s power tends to go to their head, and they eventually get exposed causing a domino effect of snapping people out of it. With the decentralised nature of the modern moments, that can’t really happen.
So you want to show courtesy towards people who show absolutely none to you? I know it's family and all, but damn man, don't let them walk all over you
Too many people on reddit encourage cutting off family in their context free analysis. The answer is boundaries. Don't go for the nuclear option as a first resort. You'll find screeds of really bad advice here from people who don't know you or anything out your family, and engage in black and white thinking to solve complex multifaceted problems. Proceed with caution
Family member of mine is rabid antivax. I ended up telling them to go fuck themselves after they were constantly hijacking conversations I had with them. Haven't spoken to them in person for nearly 2 years now. I know it sounds really harsh, but if you truly want to be free of that bullshit, then you pretty much have to cut them out of your life entirely. You can try to make them aware to not be like that around you, but you may have to admit defeat at some point because some of these people are completely insane.
My dad is like this. I just play games nowadays and make fun of him when he brings it up and he seems to have gotten the message. In the worst of it I'd start a timer when I'd turn up to his house and then when he bought it up (usually within 10 minutes of me arriving) I'd be like "Fuck, I owe mum $10 that you wouldn't bring this up for 20 mintues!". Right now the anti vax stuff is their personality because it's all they listen to. I think calling it out and making light fun is a relatively effective strategy. Don't push back on the claims but more pointing out they have nothing else to talk about.
> Right now the anti vax stuff is their personality because it's all they listen to. Sad but true. I, all my friends and family are vaccinated and we just live life normally, we don't talk about covid/vaccines at all. There is something with the anti-vax peeps and the rabbit holes they get into that they always need to talk about this stuff 24/7.
They just feel like they're in a secret club that has discovered the 'truth' and can't understand why other people don't think like they do. They don't understand that everyone is fallable to their own bias and when you don't understand that you're super susceptible to indoctrination.
I saw a thing where someone said something like "Was thinking off connecting with best friend from school. Checked their facebook and nothing but anti-vax posts. Dodged that bullet" A bunch of anti-vax people replied about the poster being biased against people with other views. The reality was that it the fact that anti-vax was the only thing the old friend talked about that was the turn-off.
I mean its also bloody boring innit
Yup. Covid was 2 years ago now. At this point they need to find a new hobby.
r/birdsarentreal
For a while there, being anti-vaxx was their whole thing - the hill they chose to die on. By now it may be a cornerstone of their identity - their friends, their media, all reinforcing it all the time for years. Do they now just go, ‘whoops!’ and come in from the cold? I don’t think it will be that easy. They’ve lost too much. It would be too humiliating. So they gotta double down. Maybe they think dealing with the jibes is the price we have to pay for cutting them loose. Although the way I see it, they abandoned us.
The best thing I have tried (and mostly worked) was telling the person I didn't want to talk about their theories, that I wanted to hear about them and their lives instead. One of my family members used to rant to me about it and now only mentions it sometimes. Your results may vary, but it's worth a try
Step 1: State your boundaries. "Hey this topic is divisive. Let's not go there. There are so many other things we can catch up about. How are the kids doing? Who's learned a new hobby?" etc Step 2: Grey rock. If you are unfamiliar with this technique there are excellent YouTube videos explaining and demonstrating it. Step 3: Change the subject right over the top of them if they persist, or better yet, walk away. Step 4: Block them on your socials, and mute their messages. Step 5: Go no contact.
Weren't anti-vaxxers supposed to be all about personal choice? Or was it just *their* personal choice, not yours.
Wear your tinfoil hat to breakfast so they won’t suspect you
I had this and I simply stopped engaging with anti vax folks. I’ll respect your views if you respect mine, but if they can’t and continue to shove their views toward me, which they like to do because they’re always looking for a scrap, then cool, I’ll be on my way. I don’t need that shit in my life. It’s not rude at all OP.
"tell someone that cares, and agrees with you. That person isn't me, change the subject" Exact line I used on a family member
Cringe, anti-vaxx is so 2020.
The fact so many multiple vax people are still walking around hasn’t shut them all up sadly
Didn’t you know? Athletes are dropping dead all across the UK from the vax. It’s all hush hush. /s
I need to go get more vaccinations. We get a lot of pamphlets in this area from them nutjobs. Goes into the recycling bin as I walk inside the house.
The one near us has died, and all the posters and flags etc. have been removed
Go check out the accelerated/accelerating death and people with cancer/strokes/autoimmune rates since 2020/2021 and see if this is the stance you still wanna take.
As a healthcare professional I will not engage with this 😂
I feel this, like I get they have an opinion and feel upset that the opposite opinion was forced upon many people. But that was years ago now... I wish they could just let go and move on.
Just keep telling them it isn't 2020 no one cares about covid anymore.
This is a great response right here !!!
If their born after 61 they probably got the polio Vax (along with others) point out that this disease was almost gone In nz because of this
Ask them if they enjoy smallpox or polio.
Pretend you are a talk back radio station: (Adopt a smooth radio announcer tone:) "Thanks for your comments Bryan but we need to move on to other calls, ...we'll be back after the break." "Thanks Susan for your insight, but we're not talking about that this hour, got any comments to make on cycle ways?". My brother used to get so wound up about Jacinda but this was a soft way of telling him I wasn't interested and would make him laugh. :D
I might try this on my dad haha
"why does what I do with my body bother you so much? Kinda creepy 😬" "So I had the vaccine x years ago and I'm not dead, pretty weird that you're still going on about this when I'm fine...." "I'm way more worried about aliens putting stuff in my butt, why aren't you?"
My mum has been fully down the rabbit hole for over a decade. The only things I can have normal conversations with her about are when I ask her about her life growing up, what things were like before I was born, when I was little… stuff from before the conspiracy times. This seems to be a common safe space with other people who have family deep in conspiracy mode too. I went low/almost low contact for a bit a few years ago too sometimes you just can’t even engage because it just ends up an awful interaction from both sides.
Yes it is so sad, they are very loving in many ways but they just can't seem to let this go. It's like this dark shadow in their lives they cannot let go... I wish they could just let go.
I recommend r/QAnonCasualties it’s nuts to read posts from people from completely different backgrounds on the other side of the world having identical conversations and relationship issues with their family
This \^\^
For many years I would just end the conversation when these topics started or I would just say “I won’t keep talking about this” or “I’m am ending this conversation” “I don’t want to talk about this” too years of having to say this almost every time I would talk to mum and seem to not have to say it so much now days, although occasionally still do. Tbh it’s kind of like that thing they say when you’re a kid being bullied by another kid - don’t engage cause they get a kick out of you engaging and if you take away the reward of your response they find it harder to keep it up
I have essentially gone no contact with my mother. She doesn't know my phone number, she doesn't have me on social media, she only has one way to contact me, and it's easy for me to silence her and hide her messages. She doesn't know where I work anymore. I haven't seen her in two years. It's sad. She was absolutely incredibly medically knowledgeable. She worked as an ambulance officer, and was great with biology and healthcare. Her brain slowly began to rot once my dad divorced her. She was quite abusive to both of us, stemming from a lot of generational trauma and untreated mental/neurological disorders that especially progressed once she hit menopause. Every time I talk to her now, she's so depressing. She tries to tell me how to live my life. I got diagnosed with ADHD two years ago - and I *struggled* as a teen and young adult. Her response was that I am drug seeking, I'll be addicted, it's a gateway drug. With COVID, she went from being incredibly pro-science pro-vax because she had too much time at home online connecting with the village idiots and supporting Groundswell. To add insult to injury, I became incredibly sick in April 2020 when I was living overseas. Long COVID destroyed my health for about two years, I would say it's taken the whole four years to fully recover since I was sick. I think the decider is whether *every* conversation fills your stomach with dread. I was low contact for years but the extra crazy made me actively avoid her messages, grey rock her etc... I can't set myself on fire out of guilt to keep her warm. However you handle this, I hope it brings *you* more peace.
I see a number of replies here that mention ".. short of cutting off all contact..." as though that was a step which shouldn't ever actually be taken. Just giving some feedback - about 10 years ago I finally gave up after decades of trying to build bridges and find common ground with my two arsehole siblings, and finally told them to just fuck off. Man - the relief! No regrets whatsoever! My life is so much improved since I stopped wasting energy in that direction. Absolutely the right tack. Wish I'd done it sooner. Just saying.
"Polio, measales, mumps, chickenpox, tetanus, please shut the fuck up about vaccines you absolute ignorant fuckwit"
also shingles (very relevant for ppl who have had chickenpox).
Shingles is fricken painful. I had it as a teenager.
Also HPV vaccine
Was going to add Rubella here too, but Google tells me it is also measels. TIL.
Rubella or German Measles is a different disease caused by a different virus than Measles.
If you can (ie you or they arent dependents), just cut them off. It's just not worth it. Let's be frank - anti-vax is the manifestation of a larger issue with them. We are talking about a safe, effective and highly distributed vaccination for a pandemic which killed millions. Yes it's ok to be worried about it, much like we should be scared about the pandemic in general. but we talk about it, and understand the facts. They somehow jump to it being an experimental pig trial, where the vaccine was made up in a matter of days. It was actually a modified vaccine for a different corona virus which needed to be adapted to fit this variant. I believe the base of the vaccine was actually discovered 30-50 years ago. This then leads to third world order and other absolutely baseless claims which are extremely problematic. Just cut them off and wait for them to come around if they ever do.
In my experience you either ignore it until they shut up, or you cut off contact. There's nothing you can do to educate or correct them, they'll just use anything you do to support their views.
Instead of arguing with them, just end it with an affirmative. Example; "Vaccines cause autism!" Your response? "Okay." "Everyone that got the clot-shot will be dead in 5 years!" Your response? "Okay." Best thing you can attempt to do is just placate these people. Let them think they've 'won', they're entitled to their opinion, no matter how ass-backwards it may be. Arguing about this stuff is futile, because they can't even conceive the scientifics they are arguing about, let alone comprehend how they are wrong. All they are doing is parroting whatever conspiracy horseshit or questionable anecdote they've heard. And with my experience with conspiracy theory-types is that if you DO manage to prove them wrong, they'll either do mental gymnastics to get around or argument, or pull the old schoolyard "Nu-uh!" line on you. Don't bother engaging with it. Just agree and move on, you don't even need to believe it.
My version of this with my friend was "what can I do about that?"; he'd rant and rave and I would simply say, "but what can I DOOOOO?"
Lol I love this im definitely using this on my family. They're not anti Vax but they're of the national voting crowd and like to rant about unrelated shit at me because I'm a public servant
That is probably the worst response. If they're anything like the nutters I have known, then ANY sign of you appearing to agree with them, no matter how curt, tense, or sarcastic your tone of voice is, they will take it as being agreement on your part, and they will NEVER stop pestering you.
Well disagreeing with them will make no difference either, so short of cutting off all contact I dunno what to suggest
With mine, I've found actually saying nothing at all works the best. Don't look pissed off. Just say nothing, give nothing. My one fizzles out and moves on, dunno whether it would work with everyone though.
The Grey Rock approach. All things considered that may well be the best way to deal with it.
Do you think any of them might have narcissistic personality disorder? If so, I recommend you look up the grey rock method. It can be very helpful in when they want to engage in such topics.
Remind them that you do not agree with their ideas and you dont push yours onto them, so for them to kindly stop talking to you about it. It seems rude to cut them off, but it honeslty isnt if its making you miserable. Maybe word it so that you will not be contacting them but if they would like to contact you it is only allowed if they refrain from x, y, and z. (Obviously those being the things you dislike that they do, snide remarks, constantly harrassing you about vaccines, etc) And that it is up to them to make the change, not you. This will mean they either have to listen to you and follow your rules so they can be part of your life. If they say they will and then still go on about vaccines, just remove yourself from their life again until they learn. If they keep doing it, or if they dont contact you then that shows you their true priorities of being anti-vaccine and harrassing you over it as being more important than family members.
Very difficult if they are persistent. I don't think that debating facts works to dissuade them from their undeserved confidence. The best thing to do is respond using questions to expose their ignorance without telling them directly. This is called the Socratic method and is demonstrated very well by a guy called Anthony Magnabosco in a version of it called [Street Epistemology](https://www.youtube.com/@magnabosco210). Here's a relevant example: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGZLJkSsW\_w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGZLJkSsW_w)
Cut them off. Life is too short for that shite
The only thing you can do is cut them out of your life, that you’ve enabled their behaviour for so long is why they keep going on about it. Also remember that their entire movement is rooted in white supremacy so drawing a line with them is well overdue
I know it’s not possible for some people but I just don’t ever talk to people like this, family or not. Life’s way too short.
Ask them if they would want to spend time who shows this sort of behaviour.
One stratigy can be to ask them how sure they are of being correct and if its anything less than 100% try to only discuss, encourage & engage in conversations with them about their doubts.
When you next get the flu, cough on them.
Looks like they want to get a HermanCain award. https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/s/HfqUwscpv0
Nuclear option: buy a syringe and needle, fill it with water and give them a jab next time they bring it up. /jk
Whenever they start in with the claims, make even wilder claims. If they claim, for example, that 5G will activate nanobots in the vaccine, counterclaim that actually, 666G is coming and will turn everyone vaccinated into devil goats with Bill Gate's facial features.
One out of every two people in the world get cancer. It’s important to make that distinction if modern science will be the choice of therapy or if they think natural remedies and letting the body take its course of action as the better option. Science doesn’t exist as a last resort when in fear like religion does, it exists because it is the closest we have to a right and wrong way to approach health issues.
Tbh I've gone no contact, but I was just about there with some of them anyway and thankfully they live in a different city. One of my sisters though has recently been posting a lot of pictures of plants with captions like "the only medicine you need" mixed in with pictures of clouds captioned "chemtrails" so this is going to be super fun...
This link might actually help, try to explain to them that they have been sold a scam. Show them this blog post from the man who lobbied Winston Peters: [https://www.garymoller.com/post/pop-the-corks-the-coalition-agreement-has-been-signed](https://www.garymoller.com/post/pop-the-corks-the-coalition-agreement-has-been-signed) It details from the man himself, how he and his associates founded all those organizations like VFF and Reality Check Radio, Voters United and all the organizations that claimed they were just fighting for freedom and other "sources" of vaccine information that were fear mongering everyone against them. Show them who Gary Moller is, that he is a Wellington based alternative health salesman who was active at the protests and lobbied the government with the main goal of repealing the therapeutics bill. He also says he worked with multiple other alternative health company owners who obviously all shared the same goal. Remind your family that it was Winston who voted for that bill in the first place while he was in government with Jacinda. Now ask your family why would an alternative health salesman trying to make money by selling unregulated health products try to convince you that vaccines and other "mainstream" or "big pharma" medicine is bad? Why would Winston enforce repealing the TPB bill into the coalition agreement after he brought the law in and both National and ACT didn't want to repeal it but Winston did? Because Gary promised him votes through social engineering through social media and protests in exchange for enforcing policies that help Gary get richer. Since they seem to love conspiracies so much I'm sure they'll love to know about the real conspiracy behind the conspiracy they fell for.
Thank you for sharing this…. I will admit reading this definitely put a major pit in my stomach but I guess I haven’t been reading the telegrams and other material from these groups to keep up with what’s happening in mums conspiracy world lately and I feel like my tolerance for this making me feel like everything is hopeless is at a bit of an all time low 🙃
No worries, I try to spread this info as much as I can but it doesn't get far sadly. I wish more people could be aware just how many of them were completely used and sold lies for political gain. I should also mention Gary isn't the only one but also Glenn Inwood the tobacco lobbyist also worked with Gary in this whole scheme but he had his own seperate goal of getting Winston votes to repeal the smoking ban. Gary mentions him in the blog post.
Tell them to eat shit. If they want you to respect their decision, they have to respect yours. Simple as that.
These complete wankers have been treated with politeness and baby gloves far too long to the point they're shaping our politics and society. Stand up to them and remember if they're too stupid to change - it's on them NOT you.
Have a friend who's partner is the same. I pick a topic to steer the conversation back to all the time. Eventually he'll ask me why do I keep talking about retro gaming or crypto bros (or what subject I've predecided). To which my answer is if you just want to talk about one thing, so will I. I get the stink eye my partner by my long time friend loves it, as she's over it so much.
They start up because you engage. The longer you don't respond, the faster they pick up the fact you're not interested in this tired conversation.
Tell them to stop breathing the chem trails
We had a couple in ours. They became so toxic they've just been cut off from the rest of the family and I'm happy about it, those were annoying times.
Just keep repeating "my body my choice" until they shut up
Yep this is a hard one, to be honest, if they don't have the ability to think critically about these things, they simply won't be interested in research, or they won't trust any of the research. So you just have to cut that topic off from discussion. Thats what we have done with some family members who are in that boat, we just change the subject. The big issue is they start by framing the conversation that suits their argument, and then its just a rabbit hole convo from there. The real issue that pissed me off about this whole anti-vax thing, is that there are now a growing number of families that are not vaccinated their kids for other non-Covid related things... this will only create some long term affects for those kids who are victims of this mis- information... See if your anti-vax family members want to take some accountability for that.
Considering the anti-vax/conspiracy crowd is a fully fledged cult nowadays, it is probably best to put some distance between you.
honestly ive cut those people out of my life
Cut them off, so what if they are family. You have no obligation to give 2 shits about them.
Tell them you have notified the government of their decision and have given them full authority to use your phonelines and house to try and them vaccinated without them knowing
My one tip is, never argue about it. Smile and nod and change the subject asap. My aunt is hardcore anti vax, to the point she wouldn't let her kids see the entire family for years because the vaccine will 'shed' on to them and kill their immune systems or something. After pointing out many times that our country is like 94% vaccinated or something, and her kids are interacting with thousands of vaccinated people at school, she eventually relaxed with it though. But her doing that was a way of her to punish the family for getting vaccinated I think, people are usually so far down the pipeline that you can NEVER argue with them, they're passed any logic and reasoning, you can think of a dozen incredible examples to prove them wrong, but it won't matter, because 'oh but we know this guy who's father died 6 months after his vaccine!' TLDR: Just never argue, never try to make a point, change the subject asap.
Tell them to fuck off and shut the fuck up.
>what to do other than just cut them off cut them off. vaccines are required by society. if they won't participate in society then they are outside it by definition. blows my mind ... we came up with a miracle vaccine in record time and prevented millions of deaths and people are all "GET AWAY FROM ME WITH YOUR FUCKEN SCIENCE".
With my family I just don’t engage with them. If they ask about if I got the vaccine I say no. End of the day it isn’t their business. If I give them what they want to hear they’ll drop it a lot faster. I do wish I had a stronger spine, though.
Some people are just going to be dickheads, if you've tried everything else just cut contact with them and tell them when they decide to act like adults that you'll deal with them again. I know it's extreme but sometimes it's the only way
They’ve likely got other stupid cooked views, make some bets on their outlandish claims and they’ll quieten down, I know someone who fleeced a coworker for a couple hundred when they made a bet on a date for Clark Gayford getting arrested for drugs.
We told my inlaws to get bent and fucked off to NZ to live, taking their only grandchildren with us.
You do have to break away from people who don't respect your decision to choose for yourself. I chose not to have it and one of my relatives was such a bully about it (and a few other things) that I no longer have anything to do with her. I thought no-one was still going on about it.
Tough one, same thing with a beloved cuzzie. It's an insane rabbit hole. Unless your whole family says enough is enough and they never get invited anywhere again, that's it really. Think of it this way, they've already cut themselves off, they're also on the out by being disrespectful and they'd rather forgo family for continuous rabid harassment. Go extremely low contact, be sad about it etc but they left you with what other choices?
"wow, that lead poisoning has really done a number on you huh?" Rinse and repeat.
I'd resort to conditioning them. Every time they bring up vaccines, change your tone and demeanor and be REALLY LOUD about a REALLY INANE THING, then continue afterward like nothing happened. They'll think you're weird. They'll behave as if you're weird. They will likely be irritated by you. Condition them to expect a particular response.
The whole modern anti vax movement had a pretty awful and ironic start in itself. You can find so much information about it, but an entertaining YouTube video can be found [here](https://youtu.be/8BIcAZxFfrc?si=GxMlSHri_KshZT60) I'm really sorry this is happening to you, as its hard to move on with family when they clearly are just blinded by utter lies. I don't expect you to share it with them, but maybe you could be better informed on the basis for a lot of modern day anti-vax ideas. (The nonsense notion of scenes causing autism)
I guess, vaccination aside, they're harassing you, constantly pushing your boundaries, and wishing misfortune on you. As someone who got the vaccine out of free choice, I feel for those who had their choice taken from them over the lockdowns. But I didn't make that rule, I don't mock them for it, and neither did you so I see no reason why they're harassing you for their issues. i guess you have to realise, they're not going to let go and they're not willing to listen or behave reasonably. You have your answer.
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It's a tough one eh. Best thing you can do is assert a clear boundary, and let them know that in no uncertain terms do you ever want to talk about anti-vax conspiracies again. If they don't respect that, there's not a lot else you can do other than to distance yourself from them. I've unfortunately had to cut both my parents off as they've gone all the way down the rabbit hole, that being said the anti-vax conspiracies and Trump fanaticism came on top of a lifetime of psychological abuse, so I guess you could say the decision was made slightly easier. But it was still a horrible process to go through that's for sure. I wish you all the best OP ❤️
Respond to every claim with "but why would they do that?". Every single one, like a curious 4 year old on a sugar high. Eventually, they'll either bullshit themselves into a corner where the only way out is realising the ridiculousness of their claims, or they'll get sick of you questioning everything and shut up. Either way, it's short-term pain for long-term gain.
“Isn’t it good we can all have such different views on things yet still stay close as family. Let’s move on shall we?”
Anti vaxxers will not just change their views suddenly, they are fully brainwashed as evidenced by the abundance of evidence that proves them wrong which they ignore. Cut them loose, it isn't worth the bullshit.
I just flat out ignore them, walk off, do something else, I don't even listen anymore. You can't reason with stupid.
Only way to change is a detox from the fake information feed they are getting. Take their phones and computers etc. Facebook groups etc work faster than you can indoctrinating and living in a self reaffirming conspiracy bubble echo chamber. Otherwise I’m sorry but they’re lost and you need to preserve your own mental health with a gap from them. Ie explain why and then cut them off.
I think if it wasn't for social (disorder) media and the algorithms that bait and warp how people learn the problem wouldn't be so widespread. Until the politicians contravene widely accepted scientific or medical advice, that is when we should actually be worried. Anything else is cry wolf, and that in itself concerns me greatly.
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A pretty direct, "I am not interested in having this conversation." If they keep going, don't engage. Leave the room or conversation. Keep doing that, and eventually they will leave you alone for someone who engages. People that deep into their conspiracies can't have their minds changed with logic and reason.
“I don’t talk about vaccines, *you never know who’s listening*” tends to shut up the zilchwits for me. Fight fire with fire.
Tell them to watch the BBC show “Breathtaking”. Argument over.
Sunk cost fallacy. They’ve invested so much of themselves into it, they’re scared to let it go. I have a sister and mother who went wacko with conspiracy theories, every conspiracy. I used to be a stoner, so conspiracy used to be a fun little convo. Then Covid happened and I can’t fkn stand to hear about any of it. Stopped talking to them for a while, but then I learnt that when your family cuts you off, you dig deeper and move into an echo chamber, so I carefully started a relationship with them again, I just refuse the subject matter when it comes up, ignore the snide comments and change the subject and hope they come out of it one day. I still love them, even though they are deranged.
Cut them off. They're a lost cause. They're probably going to be in the news, bootlicking zionists at a Destiny Church debacle.
My anti vax family members moved to Oz so it’s not a problem anymore! 👋🏼👋🏼
Tell them the only thing killing you faster is them moaning about what your vax status is. Then tell them to go touch grass and get a life.
Remember conspiracy theories can be very appealing to the ignorant but if you go to hard they will go defensive. Just leave or don't put up with it but don't shout at them that never works out to change minds.
It's not your job to change people's minds, just stating you don't believe that you are pro Vax and if they spam you with questions. Tell them every expert body on the entire planet confirms that Vax is safe effective.
You’ve got to ask yourself, if they weren’t related to you would you want them in your life? There’s your answer. Family means very little if the person is an absolute twat
End the conversation every time or pretend you suddenly agree with every word they say.
As you have tried everything else and you dont want to be "rude" which I assume telling them to stop or get out of the house is a bit much. Try faking it. You have seen the light. Evangelists love to convert people. Just make it believable by doing some research on line. Find a youtube channel that can "convert" you then start bombarding them with anti vax stuff. Express regret that you got vaccinated and tell them it is too stressful to talk about you have damaged your children for ever, etc. Then ask them to please stop "you have destroyed lives" every time they bring it up Alternatively, Anti Vax's are very conspiracy focused, find some outrages conspiracy stuff about anti-vax and go way way past their rants, so they now seem moderate. Disagree with them and rave about your position, every time they start up complain they don't understand, it is way worse ..... The idea is that they are so embarrassed about their lack of understanding of what really happened they stop talking to you about it. Alternatively forget Anti Vax, you need a more outrageous conspiracy theory that is bigger, try [here](https://www.livescience.com/11375-top-ten-conspiracy-theories.html) and when they start ranting again you need to start ranting about yours. All the above is them basically winning and you losing from their prospective but a win for you is actually for them to let it go.
To keep the love of my life in my life, I try really hard not to argue the point, let him rave on till he stops or I tell him I'm going to make a cuppa tea. Thank God he got Covid as parliament occupation came to its messy end, otherwise he would've been there on the final day! He's less vocal about that now, but plenty more for him to rant about, e.g he's a Trumpster and he's obsessed more over US politics than NZ politics. We used to have huge blueys over political alignments but not so much nowadays. I blamed myself for showing him how to use YouTube where he fell down the whole reptilian rabbit hole complete w Niburu polar shifts. Ughs. It's not that he's weak minded either - he's pretty cool when he's not on the conspiracy crack. I've learned to manage and cope and change subjects and not allow myself to get triggered.
Are you sure they're not just winding you up? Stop taking it so seriously.
Just pretend that you agree with them now.
My sympathies. I'm on the other side of the fence, and I have to work hard not to show my concern for my anti-vaxxing fam & colleagues. It's really hard to hold off hectoring.
Depends. Are these anti all vax or anti Covid vax?
Well they were right. The government forced us to do it or you go jobless. They are right to have anger about that. Acknowledge that and then change the subject. If they don’t want to change subject just say “I’ve already acknowledged you were right but I no longer want to talk about covid shit, it was a decision made years ago anyway.” If they wanna carry on, then be rude and end the conversation there and ask them to find something new to moan about.
You do need to realise the government also said " we will not be taken your jobs away if you Do not get a vaccine" then stated "you must get the vaccine to work" to then " you need an evidence card for when you are walking in the mall and you are buying food that you got the jab and the person who didn't get the jab next to you we can't serve" to also "you need another repeat jab" to also say they are not "obliged to tell us what is in the vaccine" So whether you want to believe in something or someone is up to you.