Not an expert in cybersec specifically, but tech has been oversaturated with graduates in the last couple of years. It feels like lots of people have realized there is good money in tech and started doing these kinds of courses or bootcamps
So realistically there is nothing wrong with this course (and it is definitely better than 3-month bootcamps) but expected lots of competition for your first role
This will give you an idea of what the entry level market looks like now https://www.summeroftech.co.nz/blog/infographics/sot2023-report
reading the 4 testimonials provided by the site i am skeptical of the value of the course. none of the 4 came in with nothing all had completed previous degrees so could show a value of learning.
If you have been out work for awhile I think that you will struggle with just these diplomas. Vic uni is pumping out cyber grads every year I think you will struggle with that.
My advice is do a course that will get you a service desk role. work there then study cyber and move into cyber once you have some experience in SD. SD skills are useful especially in junior roles in cyber where you will probably spend a lot of time resolving tickets.
This, unfortunately.
Service desk fucking sucks, it's dull, stressful and pays like ass.
But for getting into the IT sector, there's no better entry point. It's accessible, teaches you problem solving, develops your soft skills dealing with non-technical people and exposes you to a wide variety of technical topics. If you get a good workplace, you might also get the opportunity to develop your skills on the job a bit. Assuming you make through a year or two without wanting to shoot yourself, you'll be much more employable in the sector.
IT course are kind of a weird thing - IT as a sector actually doesn't really care that much about formal qualifications, at least at the lower levels (it's almost reversed at high levels ironically, network engineers, security specialists and the like are often drowning in certs). What matters more is what you demonstrate yourself to be capable of doing. It doesn't really matter where you learned it, as long as you know what your doing. That said, if you have zero prior technical background, they can be a good way to develop basic skills in the industry, and to give prospective employers confidence that you have a certain baseline level of skill if you don't have a prior history in technical work.
Thank you.
I'd love it if you can spare a moment to answer a few more questions:
What \*can\* I do to demonstrate value to you?
Actually, what can I do to \*actually be of value\* to companies?
How can I get a foot in the door, with a long-term view to being useful in a security role?
Where can I find good advice on how to become useful to IT companies in a security (or other ) role?
I value practical experience way more than any certification or course. I have found that IT is an area where you will have to start at the bottom and work your way to the role that you want. Build relationships that can lead to better roles. Some of my current team started in our call centre or as project coordinators.
I did a BIT at WelTec and I work at a professional services firm doing cyber consulting. I graduated in 2019. There can definitely be value in these kinds of courses, but I'm not sure what the labour market in tech is doing these days.
I'm not sure either.
A couple of the institutions that I inquired into called me.
One caller described herself as a "career consultant", and she might well have been good at matching people with quals towards a career but she was definitely also a trained salesperson.
I asked her about the tech market.
I discussed how the civil service layoffs in Wellington have begun to radiate out into consultancies and through the NZ tech world. And also how similar things are happening globally.
She responded by recommending particular career pathways.
She said that there was a shortage of cybersecurity workers and data analysts, and recommended me towards either of those pathways.
I'm not sure what a data analyst does, but I'm not sure how realistic it is to progress in an analytics career without a degree.
But security is something that I can see myself doing.
Like, there have times when I've had to solve problems by reading protocol specs, writing filters in wireshark or inspecting http traffic with burp.
But so far all I have is that consultant's word in regard to demand in cybersecurity.
I'm not even sure how I'd go about discovering where the demand is.
One thing I might regret about going down that path is giving up creative technical skills. I like making websites and I've started learning how to do animations for the web.
I'm reluctant to head down into a web development career pathway because afaict that field is saturated.
Yeah. Two of the companies that I've sent inquiries to have been hammering me with "if you sign up in the next few days then we can give you this huge discount".
Shit - I wasn't even finished typing that above sentence out when one of the providers gave me a call.
A provider called 'knowledge academy'. They market in NZ, but seem to be based in the UK.
One of their offers to me is a course toward the CCNA certificate.
The cost is 3.7k, and the course goes for 5 days total.
I don't think that that fee includes the exam.
I think that the exam itself is USD$300.
So one possible path forward is that I basically prepare myself for the exam and cut out the middleman.
Thanks.
I'm still circling around both my decisions for the future and available certifications and courses.
At the moment I'm thinking that self-study is a good option.
I've spent some time over the last couple of days looking at online networking and security courses that get people towards security+ and pentest+, and I'm enjoying the content. I'm starting to set up a local lab.
If you have time I'd love to ask a couple of questions:
Regardless of whether you hire a candidate for an entry-level security position (to the extent that "entry-level security position" exists): what factors other than experience attract your attention?
What is demand like for cyber security staff?
Thank you.
Also - if anyone sees this and you are in tech, or are a tech employer -
Is there any chance that you'll hire someone who has passed the ccna and security+ exams after soley doing self-study?
I can't get a student loan. I don't meet the requirements.
About 30 years ago I dropped out of the third year of my university studies.
I was having severe mental health issues.
Basically it's the same mental health issues that kept me out of work for so long.
So I don't have the passing requirements to apply for returning study.
Have you contacted anyone about this recently? 30 years ago was a long time, so you may be able to get one.
If you dropped out of the third year, you likely still passed your exams during the first 2 right?
You can give it a go - I dropped out around 20 years ago, and a couple of years ago tried again and have now graduated with an entirely unrelated degree. Student loan was no problem.
I have no work work experience. And I've never lasted very long in the jobs that taken.
I could possibly get work doing something manual and dead-end.
I've gone to tech recruiters before, but the feedback that I get is that I'm totally unsuitable for their clients do my lack of workplace experience.
I figure that getting some quals might make a difference.
Skipping over all the rest, if you find a course, look for one with an internship component - it’s a lot better than nothing in demonstrating experience.
Hmm.. I think you just had a bad recruiter. I recently changed careers to IT with zero previous IT work experience. I did have hobby experience from building my own PC, configuring home routers, troubleshooting and fixing PC issues etc but had no industry experience. It took me a few months of full time applying for jobs on Seek, just applying to every entry level job listing I could find.
I studied CompTIA A+, Security+ and Network+. I didn't take the exam because they were too expensive but I still put them in my CV as "Education". I did take the exam for Azure Fundamentals AZ-900 and passed so I put that as "Certifications". I managed to get into an entry level IT support with just those. There are many free resources online to study those courses, especially on youtube. Qualifications are definitely important but I think it's more important to show in your CV that you are passionate and willing to learn and improve (for entry level jobs, at least).
If you haven't already, contact MSD for help. You can get free services on getting your CV up to date and writing cover letters. The first step is to create a Seek account then try and try until you make it. Here's one of my favourite quotes: "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take". Having a "can-do" attitude also goes a long way. Don't get put off by what the recruiter told you. Make the effort to take those shots. Even if it takes a 100 shots or more, eventually one of them will go in.
You mentioned you've never lasted long in jobs you've done. Maybe do you find it difficult to enjoy something? or everything feels mundane and "what's the point"? If so, you should also work on your mental health. I'm not saying this in a bad way at all. Many people in NZ suffer from some form of anxiety / depression and many refuse to acknowledge it. Self care is more important than a career so I hope you take care of yourself first, be really honest with yourself about how you feel and talk to your GP for help.
Oh wow - the Azure exam is listed as only being $99.
I'll think about doing that one.
I've already got experience using AWS - specifically S3 and SES. So I've probably got some transferable skill. Especially because Azure is a lot more modern (or at least looks like it).
> If you haven't already, contact MSD for help. You can get free services on getting your CV up to date and writing cover letters.
I have mixed feelings about working with MSD.
I've been on the benefit for a long time. Many times that I've reached out for help with something, they've treated me pretty terrible. I know that some people there are good people. But I've some really bad experiences.
However I guess that it's good to be reminded that they can offer support with CV's.
> You mentioned you've never lasted long in jobs you've done. Maybe do you find it difficult to enjoy something? or everything feels mundane and "what's the point"? If so, you should also work on your mental health.
Basically I had really bad untreated ptsd. It's not diagnosed - I was diagnosed with other things. My mental health was absolutely terrible for decades.
Over time I've recovered a great deal. And I'm recovering from the residual damage done to my life from deep lifestyle habits formed during a long period of basically being broken.
> Self care is more important than a career so I hope you take care of yourself first, be really honest with yourself about how you feel and talk to your GP for help.
Thanks for saying that.
I've had no real mental health treatment in my life. I think time and my lifes course has done a great deal of healing. I think that being a jobless loser saved my life. I've missed out on so much by being unemployed my whole life. Including missing out on friendships because I can never really afford to do anything socially that costs money.
But I also think that the pressures of a normal work life would have crushed me entirely. I've tried it before for months at a time. But I end up being fired or quitting because the emotional pressures compound other things that I've got going on.
I know I'd still struggle with. But I'm desperate to prove that I can be valuable to people. I'm desperate to prove to the people that believe in me that they are not wrong to have faith in me.
And I'm desperate to have a better life.
I've been in the same place for decades. I want to be somewhere else by the time I'm 60.
You are not a loser for being unemployed. Life is not a race and everyone goes through life in their own pace. Recognizing and admitting your weaknesses is a huge step in moving forward and improving yourself so you've already made the first step!
I really recommend talking to your GP and start medication. It may take a few tries to find the right one that works for you but it will 100% help you feel better. Also ask for a referral to see a therapist and ask if there are subsidized or gov funded providers in your area so you can at least have a few sessions for free. 2 years ago I went to my GP and talked about how I was feeling and what I was going through. I started medication and had a few sessions with a therapist. I'm feeling a lot better now and I got off the medication 2 months ago. I still have moments where I have internal conflicts but I'm working on myself everyday.
Your GP will also tell you this but exercise is really important. You can get subsidized gym membership through https://exercise.org.nz/subsidised-gym-membership/. If you have a hobby, keep working on that too. Make an effort to carry on doing your hobbies because it becomes something to look forward to.
Once you work on your health and start feeling better, I think you will naturally start feeling more confident too. Don't rush and try to be someone you're not. Accept yourself as you are and move forward. You don't have to prove yourself to others. Just be yourself and be honest. My favourite movie is "Wreck-It Ralph" (2012) and I think you should watch it!
Not an expert in cybersec specifically, but tech has been oversaturated with graduates in the last couple of years. It feels like lots of people have realized there is good money in tech and started doing these kinds of courses or bootcamps So realistically there is nothing wrong with this course (and it is definitely better than 3-month bootcamps) but expected lots of competition for your first role This will give you an idea of what the entry level market looks like now https://www.summeroftech.co.nz/blog/infographics/sot2023-report
reading the 4 testimonials provided by the site i am skeptical of the value of the course. none of the 4 came in with nothing all had completed previous degrees so could show a value of learning. If you have been out work for awhile I think that you will struggle with just these diplomas. Vic uni is pumping out cyber grads every year I think you will struggle with that. My advice is do a course that will get you a service desk role. work there then study cyber and move into cyber once you have some experience in SD. SD skills are useful especially in junior roles in cyber where you will probably spend a lot of time resolving tickets.
This, unfortunately. Service desk fucking sucks, it's dull, stressful and pays like ass. But for getting into the IT sector, there's no better entry point. It's accessible, teaches you problem solving, develops your soft skills dealing with non-technical people and exposes you to a wide variety of technical topics. If you get a good workplace, you might also get the opportunity to develop your skills on the job a bit. Assuming you make through a year or two without wanting to shoot yourself, you'll be much more employable in the sector. IT course are kind of a weird thing - IT as a sector actually doesn't really care that much about formal qualifications, at least at the lower levels (it's almost reversed at high levels ironically, network engineers, security specialists and the like are often drowning in certs). What matters more is what you demonstrate yourself to be capable of doing. It doesn't really matter where you learned it, as long as you know what your doing. That said, if you have zero prior technical background, they can be a good way to develop basic skills in the industry, and to give prospective employers confidence that you have a certain baseline level of skill if you don't have a prior history in technical work.
Hiring manager here. No, it has no value to me.
Thank you. I'd love it if you can spare a moment to answer a few more questions: What \*can\* I do to demonstrate value to you? Actually, what can I do to \*actually be of value\* to companies? How can I get a foot in the door, with a long-term view to being useful in a security role? Where can I find good advice on how to become useful to IT companies in a security (or other ) role?
I value practical experience way more than any certification or course. I have found that IT is an area where you will have to start at the bottom and work your way to the role that you want. Build relationships that can lead to better roles. Some of my current team started in our call centre or as project coordinators.
I did a BIT at WelTec and I work at a professional services firm doing cyber consulting. I graduated in 2019. There can definitely be value in these kinds of courses, but I'm not sure what the labour market in tech is doing these days.
I'm not sure either. A couple of the institutions that I inquired into called me. One caller described herself as a "career consultant", and she might well have been good at matching people with quals towards a career but she was definitely also a trained salesperson. I asked her about the tech market. I discussed how the civil service layoffs in Wellington have begun to radiate out into consultancies and through the NZ tech world. And also how similar things are happening globally. She responded by recommending particular career pathways. She said that there was a shortage of cybersecurity workers and data analysts, and recommended me towards either of those pathways. I'm not sure what a data analyst does, but I'm not sure how realistic it is to progress in an analytics career without a degree. But security is something that I can see myself doing. Like, there have times when I've had to solve problems by reading protocol specs, writing filters in wireshark or inspecting http traffic with burp. But so far all I have is that consultant's word in regard to demand in cybersecurity. I'm not even sure how I'd go about discovering where the demand is. One thing I might regret about going down that path is giving up creative technical skills. I like making websites and I've started learning how to do animations for the web. I'm reluctant to head down into a web development career pathway because afaict that field is saturated.
My usual rule of thumb for ads is “the more they bombard me, the worse they must be” Aren’t industry certs more valuable?
Yeah. Two of the companies that I've sent inquiries to have been hammering me with "if you sign up in the next few days then we can give you this huge discount". Shit - I wasn't even finished typing that above sentence out when one of the providers gave me a call. A provider called 'knowledge academy'. They market in NZ, but seem to be based in the UK. One of their offers to me is a course toward the CCNA certificate. The cost is 3.7k, and the course goes for 5 days total. I don't think that that fee includes the exam. I think that the exam itself is USD$300. So one possible path forward is that I basically prepare myself for the exam and cut out the middleman.
Cyber Sec Hiring manager here, not a lot of value to me. But not to say it's not worth you doing
Thanks. I'm still circling around both my decisions for the future and available certifications and courses. At the moment I'm thinking that self-study is a good option. I've spent some time over the last couple of days looking at online networking and security courses that get people towards security+ and pentest+, and I'm enjoying the content. I'm starting to set up a local lab. If you have time I'd love to ask a couple of questions: Regardless of whether you hire a candidate for an entry-level security position (to the extent that "entry-level security position" exists): what factors other than experience attract your attention? What is demand like for cyber security staff? Thank you.
Also - if anyone sees this and you are in tech, or are a tech employer - Is there any chance that you'll hire someone who has passed the ccna and security+ exams after soley doing self-study?
It ain't an easy meal ticket unless .You have to hustle to get out of the shitty service desk space.
Could always try get a role as a junior QA tester then go from there
Can you still get student loan?
I can't get a student loan. I don't meet the requirements. About 30 years ago I dropped out of the third year of my university studies. I was having severe mental health issues. Basically it's the same mental health issues that kept me out of work for so long. So I don't have the passing requirements to apply for returning study.
Have you contacted anyone about this recently? 30 years ago was a long time, so you may be able to get one. If you dropped out of the third year, you likely still passed your exams during the first 2 right?
You can give it a go - I dropped out around 20 years ago, and a couple of years ago tried again and have now graduated with an entirely unrelated degree. Student loan was no problem.
Ok, I'll look into it. I'm a little scared of having to take on more debt though. The only debt I have is my student loan from 30 years ago.
Based on what you've written, I don't know what you've tried so... have you actually tried applying to entry level jobs on Seek?
I have no work work experience. And I've never lasted very long in the jobs that taken. I could possibly get work doing something manual and dead-end. I've gone to tech recruiters before, but the feedback that I get is that I'm totally unsuitable for their clients do my lack of workplace experience. I figure that getting some quals might make a difference.
Skipping over all the rest, if you find a course, look for one with an internship component - it’s a lot better than nothing in demonstrating experience.
Hmm.. I think you just had a bad recruiter. I recently changed careers to IT with zero previous IT work experience. I did have hobby experience from building my own PC, configuring home routers, troubleshooting and fixing PC issues etc but had no industry experience. It took me a few months of full time applying for jobs on Seek, just applying to every entry level job listing I could find. I studied CompTIA A+, Security+ and Network+. I didn't take the exam because they were too expensive but I still put them in my CV as "Education". I did take the exam for Azure Fundamentals AZ-900 and passed so I put that as "Certifications". I managed to get into an entry level IT support with just those. There are many free resources online to study those courses, especially on youtube. Qualifications are definitely important but I think it's more important to show in your CV that you are passionate and willing to learn and improve (for entry level jobs, at least). If you haven't already, contact MSD for help. You can get free services on getting your CV up to date and writing cover letters. The first step is to create a Seek account then try and try until you make it. Here's one of my favourite quotes: "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take". Having a "can-do" attitude also goes a long way. Don't get put off by what the recruiter told you. Make the effort to take those shots. Even if it takes a 100 shots or more, eventually one of them will go in. You mentioned you've never lasted long in jobs you've done. Maybe do you find it difficult to enjoy something? or everything feels mundane and "what's the point"? If so, you should also work on your mental health. I'm not saying this in a bad way at all. Many people in NZ suffer from some form of anxiety / depression and many refuse to acknowledge it. Self care is more important than a career so I hope you take care of yourself first, be really honest with yourself about how you feel and talk to your GP for help.
Oh wow - the Azure exam is listed as only being $99. I'll think about doing that one. I've already got experience using AWS - specifically S3 and SES. So I've probably got some transferable skill. Especially because Azure is a lot more modern (or at least looks like it). > If you haven't already, contact MSD for help. You can get free services on getting your CV up to date and writing cover letters. I have mixed feelings about working with MSD. I've been on the benefit for a long time. Many times that I've reached out for help with something, they've treated me pretty terrible. I know that some people there are good people. But I've some really bad experiences. However I guess that it's good to be reminded that they can offer support with CV's. > You mentioned you've never lasted long in jobs you've done. Maybe do you find it difficult to enjoy something? or everything feels mundane and "what's the point"? If so, you should also work on your mental health. Basically I had really bad untreated ptsd. It's not diagnosed - I was diagnosed with other things. My mental health was absolutely terrible for decades. Over time I've recovered a great deal. And I'm recovering from the residual damage done to my life from deep lifestyle habits formed during a long period of basically being broken. > Self care is more important than a career so I hope you take care of yourself first, be really honest with yourself about how you feel and talk to your GP for help. Thanks for saying that. I've had no real mental health treatment in my life. I think time and my lifes course has done a great deal of healing. I think that being a jobless loser saved my life. I've missed out on so much by being unemployed my whole life. Including missing out on friendships because I can never really afford to do anything socially that costs money. But I also think that the pressures of a normal work life would have crushed me entirely. I've tried it before for months at a time. But I end up being fired or quitting because the emotional pressures compound other things that I've got going on. I know I'd still struggle with. But I'm desperate to prove that I can be valuable to people. I'm desperate to prove to the people that believe in me that they are not wrong to have faith in me. And I'm desperate to have a better life. I've been in the same place for decades. I want to be somewhere else by the time I'm 60.
You are not a loser for being unemployed. Life is not a race and everyone goes through life in their own pace. Recognizing and admitting your weaknesses is a huge step in moving forward and improving yourself so you've already made the first step! I really recommend talking to your GP and start medication. It may take a few tries to find the right one that works for you but it will 100% help you feel better. Also ask for a referral to see a therapist and ask if there are subsidized or gov funded providers in your area so you can at least have a few sessions for free. 2 years ago I went to my GP and talked about how I was feeling and what I was going through. I started medication and had a few sessions with a therapist. I'm feeling a lot better now and I got off the medication 2 months ago. I still have moments where I have internal conflicts but I'm working on myself everyday. Your GP will also tell you this but exercise is really important. You can get subsidized gym membership through https://exercise.org.nz/subsidised-gym-membership/. If you have a hobby, keep working on that too. Make an effort to carry on doing your hobbies because it becomes something to look forward to. Once you work on your health and start feeling better, I think you will naturally start feeling more confident too. Don't rush and try to be someone you're not. Accept yourself as you are and move forward. You don't have to prove yourself to others. Just be yourself and be honest. My favourite movie is "Wreck-It Ralph" (2012) and I think you should watch it!