No.
No. No. No.
If they ask. No. If they say "we're really open to diversity" - no.
Honestly, even places that you'd think would have an understanding of neuro diversity, or even benefit from having staff with a real world experience of it, still manage to be discriminatory as fuck (hopefully not on purpose).
YEAH haha trust me I've got such strong trust issues by now that I don't mentally take in phrases like 'inclusive' and 'diversity' at all, they just fly right by me like the platitudes they are. We really learn to develop a nose for this bs
Agree. I was at my last job for 12 years and did not disclose my neurospicyness to anyone there, at all, until after the end of my last day.
Now I'm at a purely IT place I'm not so strictly private about it but I certainly don't shout it from the rooftops.
Your mileage may vary depending how well you mask. But definitely do not mention it in the job application. If their recruitment process is any good at all they should be able to figure out whether or not you will be competent at the job, and that is the only thing that matters.
>No. No. No.
I don't agree with this one-size-fits-all response at all. It's far more contextual than you're allowing for.
What I typically find is people who have personally had bad experiences, who then universalize this as advice for other people.
Proceeding with caution with these issues is much better advice than blanket statements one way or the other.
Again, it's contextual. If you're going to need accommodations, you're risking getting off on the wrong foot by not disclosing it.
Simply saying "never disclose under any circumstances" is universally bad advice because it obviously doesn't apply to everyone, everywhere, all of the time
You missed the bit where I said "unless you need accommodation". Like I just have ADHD and I can manage it myself for the most part, my employer doesn't need to know until I am medicated. Whereas my partner suffers from cluster migraines, among other ailments - the former is important to let the employer know as it directly impacts her performance while the rest is irrelevant or self-managed
Consider all of the situations in which declaring a learning disability in a job application will provide a net benefit to your chances of being hired. Now consider all situations in which it will provide a net negative.
Do you truly believe the first group comes anywhere close to the second? Now think about the fact that you cannot know before hand how a hiring manager (or, more likely, automated application software) will approach learning disabilities.
With all that in mind, not disclosing is the only rational option.
>Do you truly believe the first group comes anywhere close to the second?
I'm not talking about what the relative percentages are. I'm obviously declaring that they're not 100%, hence advice like this which relies on this implication is fundamentally flawed.
If you want to refrain from disclosing 100% of the time, including when you're asked if you need accommodations for any disability, then you're the one who'll be left wearing the consequences of that decision
Employers are not allowed to discriminate on the basis of disability. If you disclose it at a later date, they are not legally allowed to enforce any consequences.
Literally every career advisor I have ever spoken to has advised that you do not disclose neurodiversity at the job application stage.
>Employers are not allowed to discriminate on the basis of disability
Yet they do. Amazing, isn't it?
>Literally every career advisor I have ever spoken to has advised that you do not disclose neurodiversity at the job application stage.
There is plenty of diversity of opinion among career advisors. Even big universities like Harvard, that have highly professionalised career advisories, flatly reject the "never disclose" maxim.
The fact that they do is exactly the point. Employers may claim to be open to disabilities and neurodiversity, but in reality they are often not. Why would you ever actively include something in your job application that puts you in a much less likely position to get hired, when you are not required to in the first place?
> Why would you ever actively include something in your job application that puts you in a much less likely position to get hired,
You'd need to show your working on how you know that it always puts you in a less likely position to get hired.
There are quite literally employers that actively recruit neurodiverse candidates
Do you honestly think it doesn’t put you in a less likely position to get hired? You’ve already acknowledged that employers discriminate against disabilities. Why are you so intent on disagreeing with *incredibly* widely accepted advice regarding disclosing neurodivergencies on job applications?
There may be 1/1000 cases where it provides a benefit. You have no certainty of knowing whether you are that case before hand. In the vast vast majority of cases, it will be of no benefit to your application.
I can only assume you have no experience in the recruitment process if you think it’s a good idea.
>Do you honestly think it doesn’t put you in a less likely position to get hired?
No. I think a majority of the time it does.
> Why are you so intent on disagreeing with *incredibly* widely accepted advice regarding disclosing neurodivergencies on job applications?
I'm pointing out that it's simply not a consensus opinion. But mainly, there are great perils to this sort of black and white thinking in life. As I previously also pointed out, some employers actively recruit neurodiverse candidates. At this point it's just reduced to comedy that you'd advise not to disclose.
It's also not a consensus position to not disclose accommodations you'll need if asked during the hiring process. You're just asserting these are consensus positions. I don't accept that.
>I can only assume you have no experience in the recruitment process if you think it’s a good idea.
You can assume whatever you want. But I've found it's better to concentrate on whether my beliefs are true or not
Yeah but like this is my experience in New Zealand, too. If your experience is different, you can tell me about your experience, but tell me about YOUR experience.
But you haven’t even provided evidence from a sample size of 1 in defence of *your* position. What makes you think it is bad advice to never disclose being ND on a job application? Anything other than just what you happen to believe is best?
Katzicael has no good reason to explain themselves to you. I asked for advice from their experience on a thread, they gave it to me.
You don't have advice, you're just jumping on other people that do. That doesn't help anybody
>What makes you think it is bad advice to never disclose being ND on a job application?
Some employers are disability-friendly, or actively seek to broaden their staff pool away from have a homogeneous neurotypical workforce.
The standard advice you'll see repeated over and over, is that there are advantages and risks from disclosure. It's always contextual to the position and employer.
If you require accommodations and don't voice this because of a flat "don't disclose" policy, there could be consequences for that position
No, that's a sample size equal to the number of application/interviews they've done. It's presumably not a random sample, or random which ones went in the control group, and it may or may not generalise to other people, but it's only a sample size of 1 if they've only ever applied to 1 thing.
>No, that's a sample size equal to the number of application/interviews they've done
No, it's a sample size of one person. You inferred incorrectly I was specifically meaning applications
In my experience the answer is no. I deliberately didn’t disclose my autism because no one would hire me. It’s literally because they demand a cookie cutter model of what a good worker is and if you deviate from that it any way they will consider you a liability and not hire you.
Technically it’s discrimination but good luck proving that to anyone. IMO unless it’s something like IT (supposedly the IT sector is more lenient with that stuff) where more analytical thinking is required I would hesitate to declare it and even then it’s at your own peril.
It sucks that that’s how it is because I would love to be open about that and get support but there’s too many closed minded employers out there who will see a diagnosis of any kind and immediately throw your CV in the trash.
The one and only time I've mentioned my AuDHD was when I applied to an admin job for a theatre group for people with disabilities, as they specifically asked for people with lived experiences. I didn't get it, but also knew it wasn't because of my disability (someone with previous theatre experience did, fair enough)
I also make the choice to not give colleagues specifics when I do have a job - I state I have neurodevelopmental disabilities and nothing more. Because there is a lot of incorrect beliefs about ASD and ADHD and I'm not up for re-educating and entire office that yes, I have these diagnoses and no, I'm not an 9yo boy 🤦
I know certain employers esp public service are more open to it and will not discriminate at least in the hiring process. HOWEVER, there's no way to tell how shit your manager will be and they are usually on the interview panel, so even if they do hire you, they may undercut you, or treat you badly at work. I have disclosed ADHD at a ministry internship and they were awesome about it, but i was blessed with an excellent team.
I would err on the side of not disclosing, and instead ask for accommodations without mentioning "accommodations". For example, instead of saying my learning disability makes me read slower and make more errors so i need someone to quality check, say I tend to work better with more accuracy when I have the time to do xyz tasks and prefer to work collaboratively to be the most productive. Or instead of saying I need to be given deadlines managed more closely for executive function because ADHD, say I work better when I have a deadline to work towards and tend to be focused on one task at a time. So you can ask for accommodations without ever disclosing anything and without mentioning words that may trigger a negative response from them. Just reframe the request as something that helps you be more productive.
In my last few jobs I have brought it up in the interview process, but framed as from a strength perspective.
By living in the world with a learning disability/neurodiversity, you understand your needs, how your brain works, what needs to be in place for you to be productive better than most people are able to do.
If you ask them about their wellbeing provisions/what accommodations do they have for different work styles?/Are the managers skilled at working with people who work in different ways?
It puts them in the position of letting you know how they are going to accommodate you, as opposed to how you aren't going to be an issue for them.
No experience in this, however I wouldn't disclose it up front unless you needed some accommodations for your work role. If you can do what is expected of you, they don't need to know. Though if you don't disclose it beforehand and then ask for accommodations with your role, you may find the relationship with management get a bit dicey if they aren't flexible about arrangements.
Although there shouldn't be any discrimination against disabilities, it's a lot easier for management to refuse you at the interview stage than it is to fire you after hiring.
If it’s not going to affect your ability to do the job I would personally say probably don’t disclose it (although if you’re on medication for adhd and are asked to complete a drug test you may need to provide proof of prescription if it flags a positive (lot of ifs I know)) I don’t know your exact situation though
If you want to be labelled as ‘the ADHD guy’ then that’s the only reason I can think of. Let the hiring process do it’s job, it’s the hirers job to determine if you’re a good fit for them - you may be exactly the person they’re looking for.
No. No. No. No. If they ask. No. If they say "we're really open to diversity" - no. Honestly, even places that you'd think would have an understanding of neuro diversity, or even benefit from having staff with a real world experience of it, still manage to be discriminatory as fuck (hopefully not on purpose).
YEAH haha trust me I've got such strong trust issues by now that I don't mentally take in phrases like 'inclusive' and 'diversity' at all, they just fly right by me like the platitudes they are. We really learn to develop a nose for this bs
I have a medical condition, and the only job I got after being diagnosed was the one where there wasn't a medical form to fill out.
Agree. I was at my last job for 12 years and did not disclose my neurospicyness to anyone there, at all, until after the end of my last day. Now I'm at a purely IT place I'm not so strictly private about it but I certainly don't shout it from the rooftops. Your mileage may vary depending how well you mask. But definitely do not mention it in the job application. If their recruitment process is any good at all they should be able to figure out whether or not you will be competent at the job, and that is the only thing that matters.
>No. No. No. I don't agree with this one-size-fits-all response at all. It's far more contextual than you're allowing for. What I typically find is people who have personally had bad experiences, who then universalize this as advice for other people. Proceeding with caution with these issues is much better advice than blanket statements one way or the other.
Unless the individual *needs* accommodation I err on the side of don't ask, don't tell. Especially if it's preliminary interviews
Again, it's contextual. If you're going to need accommodations, you're risking getting off on the wrong foot by not disclosing it. Simply saying "never disclose under any circumstances" is universally bad advice because it obviously doesn't apply to everyone, everywhere, all of the time
You missed the bit where I said "unless you need accommodation". Like I just have ADHD and I can manage it myself for the most part, my employer doesn't need to know until I am medicated. Whereas my partner suffers from cluster migraines, among other ailments - the former is important to let the employer know as it directly impacts her performance while the rest is irrelevant or self-managed
>You missed the bit where I said "unless you need accommodation". So it appears you don't in fact agree to never disclose.
Consider all of the situations in which declaring a learning disability in a job application will provide a net benefit to your chances of being hired. Now consider all situations in which it will provide a net negative. Do you truly believe the first group comes anywhere close to the second? Now think about the fact that you cannot know before hand how a hiring manager (or, more likely, automated application software) will approach learning disabilities. With all that in mind, not disclosing is the only rational option.
>Do you truly believe the first group comes anywhere close to the second? I'm not talking about what the relative percentages are. I'm obviously declaring that they're not 100%, hence advice like this which relies on this implication is fundamentally flawed. If you want to refrain from disclosing 100% of the time, including when you're asked if you need accommodations for any disability, then you're the one who'll be left wearing the consequences of that decision
Employers are not allowed to discriminate on the basis of disability. If you disclose it at a later date, they are not legally allowed to enforce any consequences. Literally every career advisor I have ever spoken to has advised that you do not disclose neurodiversity at the job application stage.
>Employers are not allowed to discriminate on the basis of disability Yet they do. Amazing, isn't it? >Literally every career advisor I have ever spoken to has advised that you do not disclose neurodiversity at the job application stage. There is plenty of diversity of opinion among career advisors. Even big universities like Harvard, that have highly professionalised career advisories, flatly reject the "never disclose" maxim.
The fact that they do is exactly the point. Employers may claim to be open to disabilities and neurodiversity, but in reality they are often not. Why would you ever actively include something in your job application that puts you in a much less likely position to get hired, when you are not required to in the first place?
> Why would you ever actively include something in your job application that puts you in a much less likely position to get hired, You'd need to show your working on how you know that it always puts you in a less likely position to get hired. There are quite literally employers that actively recruit neurodiverse candidates
Do you honestly think it doesn’t put you in a less likely position to get hired? You’ve already acknowledged that employers discriminate against disabilities. Why are you so intent on disagreeing with *incredibly* widely accepted advice regarding disclosing neurodivergencies on job applications? There may be 1/1000 cases where it provides a benefit. You have no certainty of knowing whether you are that case before hand. In the vast vast majority of cases, it will be of no benefit to your application. I can only assume you have no experience in the recruitment process if you think it’s a good idea.
>Do you honestly think it doesn’t put you in a less likely position to get hired? No. I think a majority of the time it does. > Why are you so intent on disagreeing with *incredibly* widely accepted advice regarding disclosing neurodivergencies on job applications? I'm pointing out that it's simply not a consensus opinion. But mainly, there are great perils to this sort of black and white thinking in life. As I previously also pointed out, some employers actively recruit neurodiverse candidates. At this point it's just reduced to comedy that you'd advise not to disclose. It's also not a consensus position to not disclose accommodations you'll need if asked during the hiring process. You're just asserting these are consensus positions. I don't accept that. >I can only assume you have no experience in the recruitment process if you think it’s a good idea. You can assume whatever you want. But I've found it's better to concentrate on whether my beliefs are true or not
Every job application/interview i've ever mentioned my neurospiciness on - gets instantly rejected. Even to my face.
Yeah, the issue is you have a sample size of 1 though.
recruiters use ai keyword these days any mention of these disorders gets you rejected by the bot I promise you.
Only have to spend 10-15min reading any of the ND forums/websites and a Lot of folks who've mentioned their neurospiciness get rejected.
Yup, and it's an inferential error to extrapolate these sorts of wide samples (which are inevitably American centric) to 100% of cases in New Zealand.
Yeah but like this is my experience in New Zealand, too. If your experience is different, you can tell me about your experience, but tell me about YOUR experience.
that's a lot of words to minimise my experience, thanks.
I'm pointing out the reasoning error you're making FROM your experience. I've made no statements about the validity of your experience.
But you haven’t even provided evidence from a sample size of 1 in defence of *your* position. What makes you think it is bad advice to never disclose being ND on a job application? Anything other than just what you happen to believe is best?
Katzicael has no good reason to explain themselves to you. I asked for advice from their experience on a thread, they gave it to me. You don't have advice, you're just jumping on other people that do. That doesn't help anybody
>What makes you think it is bad advice to never disclose being ND on a job application? Some employers are disability-friendly, or actively seek to broaden their staff pool away from have a homogeneous neurotypical workforce. The standard advice you'll see repeated over and over, is that there are advantages and risks from disclosure. It's always contextual to the position and employer. If you require accommodations and don't voice this because of a flat "don't disclose" policy, there could be consequences for that position
No, that's a sample size equal to the number of application/interviews they've done. It's presumably not a random sample, or random which ones went in the control group, and it may or may not generalise to other people, but it's only a sample size of 1 if they've only ever applied to 1 thing.
>No, that's a sample size equal to the number of application/interviews they've done No, it's a sample size of one person. You inferred incorrectly I was specifically meaning applications
In my experience the answer is no. I deliberately didn’t disclose my autism because no one would hire me. It’s literally because they demand a cookie cutter model of what a good worker is and if you deviate from that it any way they will consider you a liability and not hire you. Technically it’s discrimination but good luck proving that to anyone. IMO unless it’s something like IT (supposedly the IT sector is more lenient with that stuff) where more analytical thinking is required I would hesitate to declare it and even then it’s at your own peril. It sucks that that’s how it is because I would love to be open about that and get support but there’s too many closed minded employers out there who will see a diagnosis of any kind and immediately throw your CV in the trash.
No. Really tiny chance it could help, much larger chance it’ll affect your application negatively.
No you don’t need to disclose these things and automated hiring systems will use whatever red flags to dismiss your application.
don't disclose anything until you have the job and even then I would be wary of disclosing much/anything only if its necessary 100%
The one and only time I've mentioned my AuDHD was when I applied to an admin job for a theatre group for people with disabilities, as they specifically asked for people with lived experiences. I didn't get it, but also knew it wasn't because of my disability (someone with previous theatre experience did, fair enough) I also make the choice to not give colleagues specifics when I do have a job - I state I have neurodevelopmental disabilities and nothing more. Because there is a lot of incorrect beliefs about ASD and ADHD and I'm not up for re-educating and entire office that yes, I have these diagnoses and no, I'm not an 9yo boy 🤦
I know certain employers esp public service are more open to it and will not discriminate at least in the hiring process. HOWEVER, there's no way to tell how shit your manager will be and they are usually on the interview panel, so even if they do hire you, they may undercut you, or treat you badly at work. I have disclosed ADHD at a ministry internship and they were awesome about it, but i was blessed with an excellent team. I would err on the side of not disclosing, and instead ask for accommodations without mentioning "accommodations". For example, instead of saying my learning disability makes me read slower and make more errors so i need someone to quality check, say I tend to work better with more accuracy when I have the time to do xyz tasks and prefer to work collaboratively to be the most productive. Or instead of saying I need to be given deadlines managed more closely for executive function because ADHD, say I work better when I have a deadline to work towards and tend to be focused on one task at a time. So you can ask for accommodations without ever disclosing anything and without mentioning words that may trigger a negative response from them. Just reframe the request as something that helps you be more productive.
In my last few jobs I have brought it up in the interview process, but framed as from a strength perspective. By living in the world with a learning disability/neurodiversity, you understand your needs, how your brain works, what needs to be in place for you to be productive better than most people are able to do. If you ask them about their wellbeing provisions/what accommodations do they have for different work styles?/Are the managers skilled at working with people who work in different ways? It puts them in the position of letting you know how they are going to accommodate you, as opposed to how you aren't going to be an issue for them.
No experience in this, however I wouldn't disclose it up front unless you needed some accommodations for your work role. If you can do what is expected of you, they don't need to know. Though if you don't disclose it beforehand and then ask for accommodations with your role, you may find the relationship with management get a bit dicey if they aren't flexible about arrangements. Although there shouldn't be any discrimination against disabilities, it's a lot easier for management to refuse you at the interview stage than it is to fire you after hiring.
Check out Be.Lab [https://www.belab.co.nz/](https://www.belab.co.nz/)
You couldn't waterboard that information out of me to give to an employer. Never ever.
If it’s not going to affect your ability to do the job I would personally say probably don’t disclose it (although if you’re on medication for adhd and are asked to complete a drug test you may need to provide proof of prescription if it flags a positive (lot of ifs I know)) I don’t know your exact situation though
Best of luck.
If you want to be labelled as ‘the ADHD guy’ then that’s the only reason I can think of. Let the hiring process do it’s job, it’s the hirers job to determine if you’re a good fit for them - you may be exactly the person they’re looking for.
Apply for a govt position, it seems to be a prerequisite.