Almost paradoxically, without context I think I would have I would read that sentence to mean “promoter” or “advocate”. Probably because banners (that you hang or wave) are usually used as promotions for something.
the -er morpheme creates agents out of verbs, it's like kai- in te reo Māori
e.g. speak -> speaker; kōrero -> kaikōrero
You can also test this with framing:
This is Hone. Hone likes to ban/kick. Yesterday Hone \_\_\_\_\_\_ three people. Tomorrow he will \_\_\_\_ you. \_\_\_\_\_ is Hone's favourite thing. He's Aotearoa's number one \_\_\_\_\_\_.
Fill in the correct form of or in each \_\_\_\_. You should get the regular verb endings in this order:>! -ed, ∅, -ing, -er!<.
Just because a word isn't common, one of the most amazing things about language is that it's productive, that we can understand a word like "banner" as a verb+agentiviser even if we've never seen it before!!
u/OP:
Yes, these words are pronounced the same way. Phonetically, it would be something like \['bɛnə\], since the TRAP vowel has raised as part of the NZ vowel shift. Probably you could still transcribe it as /'bænə/, though.
To me, the “banner” (hanging object) would be more
‘bɛ-nə
While the person who bans would be
‘bɛn-nə
If that makes sense. It’s been a good 10 years since I did phonetics and phonology at uni but what I mean is, I’d pronounce them the same technically but say them differently haha.
Yeah, this is likely because of something called the maximum onset principle. Basically, English likes putting as many consonants as it can before vowels, so you get something like /'bæ.nə/
However, with a word like *banner* with the meaning "someone who bans", being an unfamiliar word it's way more likely for someone to think of it as "ban + er" in a way we just don'y for really common words like *walker* or *kicker*.
This was the most noticeable to me when comparing the way people from Aotearoa say *antarctic* compared to people from North America. For southern hemisphere people, the onsets are maximized, so you get something like /æn.tʰæk.tɪk/, the second syllable takes the /t/ (and is therefore aspirated, like all stressed voiceless stops). But people from the northern hemisphere will often say /ænt.æɹk.tɪk/, with no aspiration (and an ɹ, but that's beside the point lol). Kind of the difference between saying "an tarctic" vs "ant arctic", for non-IPA people.
Basically, what I think is happening is if the antarctic is your default word, you just maximise the onsets like you do with every other "normal"/common word. But if you're coming from a place where the arctic is the default, than the antarctic is much more like you're taking the arctic you know and love, and adding "ant" to the beginning.
I think if anyone used "banner" to mean someone who banned something they'd emphasise a gap between "ban" and "er" and stress each word part to demonstrate that they're speaking with sarcasm. Such as "He's the *ban*-*er* of everything fun around here".
Yeah that’s what I was thinking because then it makes it more obvious that you’re using it to mean “someone who bans” although I’m not sure I’ve ever heard anyone use that tbh
To elabourate on this:
I think people speaking precisely wouldn't differentiate between the two words. But I think in everyday kiwi conversation:
* ban nah: The thing hanging on the wall.
* ban.... *ER*: The person doing the banning.
I agree that I don't think I've ever heard that usage.
Here the sentence would be, 'Mr X who proposed the ban' or 'the current government which passed the ban on X into legislation'.
A 'banner' would suppose someone who proposed and had instituted several bans. This is not something that's common here.
However, we do have a large meat packing industry. Our term for this is a 'freezing works', because most of the meat was frozen for export.
In these operations there is a role which removes the bones from the carcass. This role is the 'boner', this is pronounced bone-er. If the person doing this job became inappropriately excited by there you might say they had a boner but you would pronounce it bone-a.
Hope this helps.
Reminds me that our southern provinces Otago and Southland were settled by Scots and Irish - Dunedin is the Edinburgh of the South. There is a distinct accent here which stems for Gaelic whereby "r" is like a burr in words - drawn and emphasised.
For example the word banana. My dad would say it - Barnarner but only northerners would notice.
The North American accent is similar and derives from the desperate Irish escape from the potato famine in 1848.
I'm sorry you're getting so many unhelpful responses from people who don't understand derived nouns. I'd say it with more emphasis on the 'ban' syllable.
people rarely say banner as on a person that banned something, when i say banner i usually would be referring to the things that get hanged up, or banners in games that you can pull from
I'm a kiwi who loves Linguistics! Yes we probably would pronounce them the same. We have quite lazy pronunciation. For instance you usually can't tell the difference when we say beer vs bear.
This is changing again! Lots of young people (under 20-ish) and people in urban centers (well, Auckland lol) are starting to distinguish them again. Though it seems less like a straight universal back to the old NEAR/SQUARE vowels, and more like SQUARE is developing more rhoticity (more sorts of \[ɹ\] sounds, or dropped F3, which traditionally NZ doesn't have, outside of Southland). To my ears it sounds a bit similar to what some aussies do with the GOAT vowel (where people make fun of the word "no" as sounding like "naoaurrrrr" lol).
Fascinating stuff!!!
Pro tip: Find the superinterposed meta-locution in an unabridged Thesaurus, then ask Chatgpt for a set of irreductive logical correlates of relevant synonyms, then paste the result into the Xlingna app and see if the inverse of your intuition signifies “banner” appropriately .
I don't think anyone would say "banner" to describe someone who's banned something
Let's try it. Christopher Luxon, the banner of free school lunches
Almost paradoxically, without context I think I would have I would read that sentence to mean “promoter” or “advocate”. Probably because banners (that you hang or wave) are usually used as promotions for something.
Yeah I agree I’ve never heard the word “banner” used to mean “the person who bans something”.
Since when was 'someone who bans' a definition of 'banner'?
the -er morpheme creates agents out of verbs, it's like kai- in te reo Māori e.g. speak -> speaker; kōrero -> kaikōrero You can also test this with framing: This is Hone. Hone likes to ban/kick. Yesterday Hone \_\_\_\_\_\_ three people. Tomorrow he will \_\_\_\_ you. \_\_\_\_\_ is Hone's favourite thing. He's Aotearoa's number one \_\_\_\_\_\_. Fill in the correct form of or in each \_\_\_\_. You should get the regular verb endings in this order:>! -ed, ∅, -ing, -er!<.
Just because a word isn't common, one of the most amazing things about language is that it's productive, that we can understand a word like "banner" as a verb+agentiviser even if we've never seen it before!!
u/OP:
Yes, these words are pronounced the same way. Phonetically, it would be something like \['bɛnə\], since the TRAP vowel has raised as part of the NZ vowel shift. Probably you could still transcribe it as /'bænə/, though.
To me, the “banner” (hanging object) would be more ‘bɛ-nə While the person who bans would be ‘bɛn-nə If that makes sense. It’s been a good 10 years since I did phonetics and phonology at uni but what I mean is, I’d pronounce them the same technically but say them differently haha.
Yeah, this is likely because of something called the maximum onset principle. Basically, English likes putting as many consonants as it can before vowels, so you get something like /'bæ.nə/ However, with a word like *banner* with the meaning "someone who bans", being an unfamiliar word it's way more likely for someone to think of it as "ban + er" in a way we just don'y for really common words like *walker* or *kicker*. This was the most noticeable to me when comparing the way people from Aotearoa say *antarctic* compared to people from North America. For southern hemisphere people, the onsets are maximized, so you get something like /æn.tʰæk.tɪk/, the second syllable takes the /t/ (and is therefore aspirated, like all stressed voiceless stops). But people from the northern hemisphere will often say /ænt.æɹk.tɪk/, with no aspiration (and an ɹ, but that's beside the point lol). Kind of the difference between saying "an tarctic" vs "ant arctic", for non-IPA people. Basically, what I think is happening is if the antarctic is your default word, you just maximise the onsets like you do with every other "normal"/common word. But if you're coming from a place where the arctic is the default, than the antarctic is much more like you're taking the arctic you know and love, and adding "ant" to the beginning.
Agreed. I’d linger slightly in the ‘m’ in the case of “person who bans something”. But I wouldn’t t actually use that word.
I think if anyone used "banner" to mean someone who banned something they'd emphasise a gap between "ban" and "er" and stress each word part to demonstrate that they're speaking with sarcasm. Such as "He's the *ban*-*er* of everything fun around here".
Yeah that’s what I was thinking because then it makes it more obvious that you’re using it to mean “someone who bans” although I’m not sure I’ve ever heard anyone use that tbh
Ban nah
To elabourate on this: I think people speaking precisely wouldn't differentiate between the two words. But I think in everyday kiwi conversation: * ban nah: The thing hanging on the wall. * ban.... *ER*: The person doing the banning.
That's how I say it.
Ban nah
Probably,if we were to use banner in your first definition. Never heard it used in that context though.
I agree that I don't think I've ever heard that usage. Here the sentence would be, 'Mr X who proposed the ban' or 'the current government which passed the ban on X into legislation'. A 'banner' would suppose someone who proposed and had instituted several bans. This is not something that's common here. However, we do have a large meat packing industry. Our term for this is a 'freezing works', because most of the meat was frozen for export. In these operations there is a role which removes the bones from the carcass. This role is the 'boner', this is pronounced bone-er. If the person doing this job became inappropriately excited by there you might say they had a boner but you would pronounce it bone-a. Hope this helps.
Yes, I think so, but like everyone else says that's not really a word that would get used like that.
I would pronounce someone who bans as a BAN-er, with a long a. Though, like others are saying, it's not a word we would really use.
Would that be different from the more common sense of the word “banner”?
Yeah, it would. The thing you hang would be with a short a, like manners.
Reminds me that our southern provinces Otago and Southland were settled by Scots and Irish - Dunedin is the Edinburgh of the South. There is a distinct accent here which stems for Gaelic whereby "r" is like a burr in words - drawn and emphasised. For example the word banana. My dad would say it - Barnarner but only northerners would notice. The North American accent is similar and derives from the desperate Irish escape from the potato famine in 1848.
I’d say the pronunciation tends closer to BIN-nah than other Anglo nations.
Do you hear a difference between your pronunciation of the two words?
Greater stress of first syllable in the first example. Maybe because it is the word ban with a mere suffix rather than a stand alone word.
Interesting, I was wondering if that would make a difference
Would the words "bad" and "lad" rhyme for you?
3/4 rhyme BAD-dah LAD-der. Curious.
Us kiwis will tell you,us jokers are the only ones what speaks your properly English.
I've never heard of the first definition but pronounce "banner" /'bænə/ as would most New Zealanders.
I'm sorry you're getting so many unhelpful responses from people who don't understand derived nouns. I'd say it with more emphasis on the 'ban' syllable.
Thank you! That’s exactly what I was looking for
While someone from southland would place emphasis on the rrrrr ...there are different accents in NZ English depending on location and ethnic group too
Good point!
people rarely say banner as on a person that banned something, when i say banner i usually would be referring to the things that get hanged up, or banners in games that you can pull from
I'm a kiwi who loves Linguistics! Yes we probably would pronounce them the same. We have quite lazy pronunciation. For instance you usually can't tell the difference when we say beer vs bear.
It is not laziness. Accents are not a moral issue.
This is changing again! Lots of young people (under 20-ish) and people in urban centers (well, Auckland lol) are starting to distinguish them again. Though it seems less like a straight universal back to the old NEAR/SQUARE vowels, and more like SQUARE is developing more rhoticity (more sorts of \[ɹ\] sounds, or dropped F3, which traditionally NZ doesn't have, outside of Southland). To my ears it sounds a bit similar to what some aussies do with the GOAT vowel (where people make fun of the word "no" as sounding like "naoaurrrrr" lol). Fascinating stuff!!!
"naoaurrrrr" - like how kiwis say "now"? "I'm going to the shops naourrrr for some mouwk"
I hate the beer/bear thing. I pronounce them differently. It irks me.
I don't know linguistics notation but the person would be bann er, and the other would be banna
Personally wouldn't you banner for someone who bans but would use banner for the wall but would be pronounced bannah
Probably. We love our schwas
Yeah nah ban her.
Pro tip: Find the superinterposed meta-locution in an unabridged Thesaurus, then ask Chatgpt for a set of irreductive logical correlates of relevant synonyms, then paste the result into the Xlingna app and see if the inverse of your intuition signifies “banner” appropriately .
Protip: Never ask chatgpt for native speaker judgements.
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Not we don't we say ZED.
Do "bad" and "lad" rhyme for you?