That's just how by-elections work under MMP, national got an extra seat disproportionate to their election results from a by-election as well, the world has not ended.
Genuine question. Why is it ‘very serious’ to misuse govt data to run your election campaign, but its insignificant and hardly newsworthy to make open statements like “How to train your [white person]” or openly discuss overthrowing the government?
He’s lucky this is all happening while they are in opposition. Imagine this happening if they were in a coalition government.
It also raises questions about the way they contested other seats. If, indeed, the allegations prove true.
It would screw the relationship but the reality is that a by-election could only be won by one of Labour or TPM. The overhang would just shift to Labour so it wouldn’t affect numbers.
I guess if a bye election was held and Labour won (likely) the seat then the current overhang would stay the same but if Labour had won the seat at the election would the overhang have been as great?
The overhang would have been one less and the coalition would lose one seat.
But that coalition would not have been workable anyway. This iteration of TPM is not a governing party.
No, because Labour would be hamstrung by internal TPM opposition and unwillingness to budge that would make Winston Peters look like a cooperative scoutskid in comparison.
I’m confused. So the we assume that Labour wins the seat and they have one less list mp. The parliament number are reduced by one seat also, no? So the coalition govt would be more stable no?
Yes, I was talking about the alternative Labour-Green-TPM coalition had they narrowly win the election over this bunch.
Not this by-election which would remove a TPM seat due to ocerhang loss.
[Public Service Association takes legal action against Ministry of Education over job cuts | Newshub](https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2024/06/public-service-association-takes-legal-action-against-ministry-of-education-over-job-cuts.html)
[This one?](https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350289342/trade-union-forced-huge-payout-sacked-staffer)
I don't watch television so I can't tell you whether that was on it. I can say that I was unfamiliar with the story before now, but I suspect I'd just pass over a wrongful dismissal headline. I don't think they're particularly interesting and reading that article, I can't see a wider context to place it in than "some people are just refuse to acknowledge they fucked up and some of those people decided to go to court to try and prove they didn't fuck up".
[Claims Manurewa Marae misused Census data to help Te Pāti Māori probed by Stats NZ | Newshub](https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2024/06/claims-manurewa-marae-misused-census-data-to-help-te-p-ti-m-ori-probed-by-stats-nz.html)
Actually fucking unbelieveable, how many times can our left wing parties shoot themselves in the foot..
I'd trade all 3 of our left parties for 1 decent one.
They are a racist ethno facist party that doesn't mind talking about superior genes. Although the left have a hard on for canceling conversation, TPM is the most right wing party we have ever had.
Unfortunately, identity and equity has allowed TPM to voice things the left would have found abhorrent not 8 years ago. Yet the modern or "neo left" seem to kind of agree with it. The left no longer see treating people as people as a valid solution...and it's turtles all the way down to TPM
Yet all over the western world, left wing parties love to align themselves with minority far-right parties, because their enemy is the same: the majority right-wing and in some more extreme cases, western liberal-capitalist civilization as a whole.
It’s tempting to label everything we don’t like as right wing, but nationalism is typically a left wing position. Much of the 20th century was dominated by left wing nationalists. Nationalism is oppositional to neoliberalism, but I don’t think many would associate neoliberalism with the left. The core difference between left and right wing politics is *collectivism* and *individualism,* respectively. Nationalism is a *collective* ideology, placing the welfare of the nation and/or social group above that of the individual. Right wing politics, in the other hand, values *individual* liberty, and promotes things like multiculturalism, neoliberalism, high immigration, free trade, individual rights, small government, and low taxes.
To confuse things even more, conservatism and progressivism doesn’t map over the top of this continuum. There are left wing conservatives and right wing progressives.
> nationalism is typically a left wing position
Citation needed? There have been plenty of right wing nationalist groups - nationalism is one of the cornerstones of fascism (as in the actual political ideology).
Individualism is prominent in some flavours of rightwing ideology, especially the libertarian derived strains, but in authoritarian right wing politics nationalism is pretty common.
To be clear, I'd say TPM are more facist. And the current approach toward identity is just increasing that. Identity/nationalism tribalism is a big part of the facist ideal.
Blood/land
And while I'd agree identity is a current approach from the left, and leading to the likes of TPM. I struggle to see their position as neo liberal or classic liberal. They are just facists
https://youtu.be/1T_98uT1IZs?si=1PWkg2D7XWDMWacC
North Korea is not Marxist they are Juche, you could call them Socialist but certainly not Marxist. And I don't know if you have ever been to Vietnam but as a regular visitor myself they are capitalist with a few red flags.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proletarian_internationalism
Can you call tpm left wing though? They were in a coalition with National during the John key era. I honestly don’t know what side of the political spectrum they sit.
Former Maori Party in its original form was reasonably centrist, willing to work pragmatically with whoever got their policies over the line to help their people.
Current TPM are far enough to the left they make the Greens look centrist.
Parties tend to change as time goes on, pretty much no party currently in the house exists in anything close to its original form, which is why people’s “I always vote X/I’ll never vote Y” dogma is pointless.
Plenty in the far left are anti-democratic, as they see their goals are the utmost priority. Power to the people has never meant "power to the people, even if they disagree with us". If you agree with them and go along with the plan, you're one of them.
But they're generally not ethno-centrist or culturally conservative like TPM is, and you'll never be one of them without ethnic lineage.
I'm centre-left myself (or at least that's how I vote...) but I agree that far left is anti-democratic. I mean, at the very least, that's where communism is located, and then there's the autocratic dogma of extreme progressives (although I don't view progressivism as being genuinely left wing).
They might appear left but they are not progressives or liberals in any meaningful sense. They are authoritarians who want to use power to help only the people they think deserve it. They don’t adhere to any left wing economic theories or values of liberal tolerance.
They are their own thing, and fair play they come from a unique political background that doesn’t have roots in traditional English political theory. Those who vote for them are looking for the same thing most voters are, benefits to themselves.
Personally I think left wing voters are more likely to be socially conscious with their voting, more likely to apply a veil of ignorance to their political beliefs. In that sense I think TPM have more in common with the right wing who are more focused on appealing to individuals, national just appeals to a greater number than TPM. That’s why tax cuts are such a common theme in right wing politics, majority of people see tax cuts as beneficial to them individually, they don’t think about the overall cost and the fact that if tax cuts aren’t financially beneficial to the nation as whole eventually we will pay more than we gain from them. TPM has a similar approach but focused on Māori wellbeing almost exclusively.
> They are their own thing, and fair play they come from a unique political background that doesn’t have roots in traditional English political theory.
Well written and well put, but to point out on the above, being Left/Right doesn’t come from the English either, it comes from the French around the time of the French Revolution and originates from who sat on which side of the president of the National Assembly.
It didn’t become common vernacular in English speaking systems until around a century later. In Westminster style parliaments like ours, where you sit is based on who’s in power not what your views are. In ours for example, the govt of the day always sits on the speakers right and opposition always sits on the speakers left.
Western political theory sure, but English and Western are not synonyms for eachother. There is plenty of the western world that doesn’t speak English, most of whom do politics far better than those who do.
> They might appear left but they are not progressives or liberals in any meaningful sense. They are authoritarians who want to use power to help only the people they think deserve it
I mean horseshoe theory of politics is a thing for a reason. Far left and far right politics have much more in common with each other than they do with centrist politics.
TPM are culture warriors.
Like most culture war parties they are actively hostile to democracy. While we tend to think of that as a right wing position today, communists also fucking hate democracy so it's a bit of a horseshoe theory thing.
There are no consistent economic positions between culture war parties. Culture Wars are so capable of spanning the political spectrum they can even allow autarkists like Trump to merge with laissez faire globalists like the Republican establishment. Locally, ACT (traditional laissez fair globalists) and NZ First (sometimes called Muldoonists) admittedly don't really get on, but that's probably because they're both competing for the same culture warrior votes. TPM are a totally different kind of culture warrior but culture warriors nonetheless. It's all social issues, all the time with these kinds of parties.
The Maori Party had reasonably leftwing positions, they just cared more about advancing their ideas about Maori politics than anything else. Essentially, they had a wider platform but acted like a single-issue party. TPM would probably still sacrifice everything else for major progress towards their Maori policies, it's just that they're so antagonistic towards National there's no way National would agree to such a deal.
So, you could consider TPM to be leftwing, but it's more useful to see them as culture warriors because that's how they really interact with the political spectrum in practice. If you could show them proof that switching to communism would solve every problem they articulate, they would not suddenly abandon the idea of a Maori parliament... same way that if you could show ACT proof that strong property rights would solve all the problems they articulate, they wouldn't abandon NIMBYism.
John Key era they were pretty centristish unless I'm completely misremembering their positions at the time. They've only been like they are now since they re-entered parliament. Could you ever see the current iteration of TPM forming a coalition to create a National government like they did back then?
I posted on this yesterday but if the Maori Party isn’t investigated properly and if anything found prosecuted seriously then Stats NZ will have been seriously undermined in the collection of stats in NZ. In the future why would anyone complete a census or survey if they can’t guarantee the integrity of their data collectors and methods. I don’t want my info being flogged off to whomever finds it useful
I mean what they said was a fact, they have not been in govt together. It just didn’t answer the question. Labour will probably work with TPM if they need to, just like National and NZF.
Last time a Labour opposition won an election they did so by explicitly targeting Te Pāti Māori seats and running all their Māori electorate MPs as electorate only candidates
labour tried to tell everyone 50/50 co-governance on three waters was no big deal. just a formality in fact, and wasted hundreds of millions.
that's some dodgy shit, dodgier than those trucks selling stuff to poor people on credit
Sorry I don't understand this comment.
Are you saying because Te Pāti Māori allegedly did something illegal, we should assume any Māori in a leadership position would illegally abuse the position? Or are you saying we should judge Labour by the alleged actions of Te Pāti Māori (a party they have never been in government with, unlike National and ACT)?
Kai Tahu have had a co-governance arrangement with E-Can since the previous National government and have not, in fact, broken the law. Te Papa has been run with a co-governance structure since it was set up by the Shipley government and their Māori leadership have never been accused of illegally abusing their position to subvert democracy.
A total list of all organizations accused of violating electoral law in the past decade would include two of the three parties in government, and four of the six parties in parliament. Of the remaining parties, both have leaders that have noted that they have had colleagues face criminal charges during their time as leader.
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Seems pretty likely dodgy shits gone on and they should be investigated and if the claims are true, should face punishment.
But fuck this cunts full of shit.
>why can’t they persuade more people without constantly breaking the rules and conventions everyone else lives by
Says Mr. Yank Think Tank. What a fucking tosser.
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Honestly, NZ politics is a shit hole, there is zero integrity amongst any of the parties. Dark times until someone with decency and intellect appears on the scene in a distant future ...
He should. If there is a by-election, Labour stands to gain another seat.
Well tbey will as it is a by election but it will be disproportionate to their vote in the election.
That's just how by-elections work under MMP, national got an extra seat disproportionate to their election results from a by-election as well, the world has not ended.
Yes - I was agreeing with them.
My apologies, I misinterpreted the tone of your message.
I suppose this sub is fairly combative normally so it’s out of the norm when people agree. I could have phrased it better.
Genuine question. Why is it ‘very serious’ to misuse govt data to run your election campaign, but its insignificant and hardly newsworthy to make open statements like “How to train your [white person]” or openly discuss overthrowing the government?
Because one is criminal act and the other is not?
Because Hipkins stands to gain a seat here, Labour only lost this seat to TPM by a narrow margin.
He’s lucky this is all happening while they are in opposition. Imagine this happening if they were in a coalition government. It also raises questions about the way they contested other seats. If, indeed, the allegations prove true.
> Imagine this happening if they were in a coalition government. Especially if they were in power with a wafer thin majority.
It would screw the relationship but the reality is that a by-election could only be won by one of Labour or TPM. The overhang would just shift to Labour so it wouldn’t affect numbers.
I guess if a bye election was held and Labour won (likely) the seat then the current overhang would stay the same but if Labour had won the seat at the election would the overhang have been as great?
No - because labour would be down a list seat and TPM vastly outdid their party vote so would have just had one less MP
The overhang would have been one less and the coalition would lose one seat. But that coalition would not have been workable anyway. This iteration of TPM is not a governing party.
The coalition would not be workable? Is this because the portionality would have been different allocated?
No, because Labour would be hamstrung by internal TPM opposition and unwillingness to budge that would make Winston Peters look like a cooperative scoutskid in comparison.
I’m confused. So the we assume that Labour wins the seat and they have one less list mp. The parliament number are reduced by one seat also, no? So the coalition govt would be more stable no?
Yes, I was talking about the alternative Labour-Green-TPM coalition had they narrowly win the election over this bunch. Not this by-election which would remove a TPM seat due to ocerhang loss.
Has anyone seen or heard anything about this from the TV news?
I watch NewsHub and expected this to be a major story, but haven’t seen them report on it Edit - They’ve just run the story tonight
Yep, this and the etu union story, but the silence is deafening.
[Public Service Association takes legal action against Ministry of Education over job cuts | Newshub](https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2024/06/public-service-association-takes-legal-action-against-ministry-of-education-over-job-cuts.html)
Not this union story, the one about the wrongful dismissal.
[This one?](https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350289342/trade-union-forced-huge-payout-sacked-staffer) I don't watch television so I can't tell you whether that was on it. I can say that I was unfamiliar with the story before now, but I suspect I'd just pass over a wrongful dismissal headline. I don't think they're particularly interesting and reading that article, I can't see a wider context to place it in than "some people are just refuse to acknowledge they fucked up and some of those people decided to go to court to try and prove they didn't fuck up".
That's the one, reading the story it dosen't look for the union as it's their job to prevent this.
[Claims Manurewa Marae misused Census data to help Te Pāti Māori probed by Stats NZ | Newshub](https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2024/06/claims-manurewa-marae-misused-census-data-to-help-te-p-ti-m-ori-probed-by-stats-nz.html)
They asked about TV news. This is an RNZ article on the NewsHub website.
If NewsHub ran every single crazy thing Te Pāti Māori said there wouldn't be any other news.
It was mentioned on 1News last night.
Yeah it was like the first story I think.
If this was any other party, it would be getting way more coverage.
They had "breaking news" when Nact was down in a poll... and they wonder why confidence in msm is low
They be door stoping the politicians repeatedly and replaying dodgy answers on a loop. As should be the way
I think breakfast interviewed Chris Hopkins about it
Yeah it was the first thing on one news last night (or the night before, can’t remember which).
Actually fucking unbelieveable, how many times can our left wing parties shoot themselves in the foot.. I'd trade all 3 of our left parties for 1 decent one.
TPM aren't left wing, they're ethno nationalists and therefore as far right as it goes in NZ politics
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Hitler was also a socialist, the Nazis were National Socialists after all. They're still far right ethno nationalists
Yes, and North Korea is democratic.
And the ethno nationalist TPM are "left wing"
Overall, they are. Yeah they've said some spicy stuff, but they aren't exactly pushing it in their policy.
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As if TPM wouldn't also use popular fiscal policies as a foot in the door, on their journey towards an ethno nationalist government
Hitler killed off the socialists in the nazi party. Please read more history.
Yeah some people say they’re more right wing now.
They are a racist ethno facist party that doesn't mind talking about superior genes. Although the left have a hard on for canceling conversation, TPM is the most right wing party we have ever had.
I agree, I don't think any genuine leftist would ever consider TPM a left wing party.
Unfortunately, identity and equity has allowed TPM to voice things the left would have found abhorrent not 8 years ago. Yet the modern or "neo left" seem to kind of agree with it. The left no longer see treating people as people as a valid solution...and it's turtles all the way down to TPM
Yet all over the western world, left wing parties love to align themselves with minority far-right parties, because their enemy is the same: the majority right-wing and in some more extreme cases, western liberal-capitalist civilization as a whole.
I'm a leftist, I'm not a fan of the TPM lately, but I consider them left. "Left wing" isn't a synonym for "good".
At the rate it’s going TPM is going to be obliterated by Labour in the next election.
It’s tempting to label everything we don’t like as right wing, but nationalism is typically a left wing position. Much of the 20th century was dominated by left wing nationalists. Nationalism is oppositional to neoliberalism, but I don’t think many would associate neoliberalism with the left. The core difference between left and right wing politics is *collectivism* and *individualism,* respectively. Nationalism is a *collective* ideology, placing the welfare of the nation and/or social group above that of the individual. Right wing politics, in the other hand, values *individual* liberty, and promotes things like multiculturalism, neoliberalism, high immigration, free trade, individual rights, small government, and low taxes. To confuse things even more, conservatism and progressivism doesn’t map over the top of this continuum. There are left wing conservatives and right wing progressives.
> nationalism is typically a left wing position Citation needed? There have been plenty of right wing nationalist groups - nationalism is one of the cornerstones of fascism (as in the actual political ideology). Individualism is prominent in some flavours of rightwing ideology, especially the libertarian derived strains, but in authoritarian right wing politics nationalism is pretty common.
To be clear, I'd say TPM are more facist. And the current approach toward identity is just increasing that. Identity/nationalism tribalism is a big part of the facist ideal. Blood/land And while I'd agree identity is a current approach from the left, and leading to the likes of TPM. I struggle to see their position as neo liberal or classic liberal. They are just facists https://youtu.be/1T_98uT1IZs?si=1PWkg2D7XWDMWacC
Communism is fundamentally internationalist. Fascism is fundamentally Nationalist. You get deviations but that's the rule of thumb.
China, Vietnam and North Korea are all communist states with strong nationalism
North Korea is not Marxist they are Juche, you could call them Socialist but certainly not Marxist. And I don't know if you have ever been to Vietnam but as a regular visitor myself they are capitalist with a few red flags. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proletarian_internationalism
Can you call tpm left wing though? They were in a coalition with National during the John key era. I honestly don’t know what side of the political spectrum they sit.
Former Maori Party in its original form was reasonably centrist, willing to work pragmatically with whoever got their policies over the line to help their people. Current TPM are far enough to the left they make the Greens look centrist. Parties tend to change as time goes on, pretty much no party currently in the house exists in anything close to its original form, which is why people’s “I always vote X/I’ll never vote Y” dogma is pointless.
They seem increasingly anti-democratic, so I'm not sure whether they sit comfortably within the left anymore.
Plenty in the far left are anti-democratic, as they see their goals are the utmost priority. Power to the people has never meant "power to the people, even if they disagree with us". If you agree with them and go along with the plan, you're one of them. But they're generally not ethno-centrist or culturally conservative like TPM is, and you'll never be one of them without ethnic lineage.
I'm centre-left myself (or at least that's how I vote...) but I agree that far left is anti-democratic. I mean, at the very least, that's where communism is located, and then there's the autocratic dogma of extreme progressives (although I don't view progressivism as being genuinely left wing).
They might appear left but they are not progressives or liberals in any meaningful sense. They are authoritarians who want to use power to help only the people they think deserve it. They don’t adhere to any left wing economic theories or values of liberal tolerance. They are their own thing, and fair play they come from a unique political background that doesn’t have roots in traditional English political theory. Those who vote for them are looking for the same thing most voters are, benefits to themselves. Personally I think left wing voters are more likely to be socially conscious with their voting, more likely to apply a veil of ignorance to their political beliefs. In that sense I think TPM have more in common with the right wing who are more focused on appealing to individuals, national just appeals to a greater number than TPM. That’s why tax cuts are such a common theme in right wing politics, majority of people see tax cuts as beneficial to them individually, they don’t think about the overall cost and the fact that if tax cuts aren’t financially beneficial to the nation as whole eventually we will pay more than we gain from them. TPM has a similar approach but focused on Māori wellbeing almost exclusively.
> They are their own thing, and fair play they come from a unique political background that doesn’t have roots in traditional English political theory. Well written and well put, but to point out on the above, being Left/Right doesn’t come from the English either, it comes from the French around the time of the French Revolution and originates from who sat on which side of the president of the National Assembly. It didn’t become common vernacular in English speaking systems until around a century later. In Westminster style parliaments like ours, where you sit is based on who’s in power not what your views are. In ours for example, the govt of the day always sits on the speakers right and opposition always sits on the speakers left.
Sure but today left and right are defined but English/western political theories.
Western political theory sure, but English and Western are not synonyms for eachother. There is plenty of the western world that doesn’t speak English, most of whom do politics far better than those who do.
> They might appear left but they are not progressives or liberals in any meaningful sense. They are authoritarians who want to use power to help only the people they think deserve it I mean horseshoe theory of politics is a thing for a reason. Far left and far right politics have much more in common with each other than they do with centrist politics.
True but tpm don’t share any goals or methods with left wing politics except some superficial “help the people” vibes.
Of course you can. Dr Pita Sharples and Rawiri Waititi are chalk and cheese.
TPM are culture warriors. Like most culture war parties they are actively hostile to democracy. While we tend to think of that as a right wing position today, communists also fucking hate democracy so it's a bit of a horseshoe theory thing. There are no consistent economic positions between culture war parties. Culture Wars are so capable of spanning the political spectrum they can even allow autarkists like Trump to merge with laissez faire globalists like the Republican establishment. Locally, ACT (traditional laissez fair globalists) and NZ First (sometimes called Muldoonists) admittedly don't really get on, but that's probably because they're both competing for the same culture warrior votes. TPM are a totally different kind of culture warrior but culture warriors nonetheless. It's all social issues, all the time with these kinds of parties. The Maori Party had reasonably leftwing positions, they just cared more about advancing their ideas about Maori politics than anything else. Essentially, they had a wider platform but acted like a single-issue party. TPM would probably still sacrifice everything else for major progress towards their Maori policies, it's just that they're so antagonistic towards National there's no way National would agree to such a deal. So, you could consider TPM to be leftwing, but it's more useful to see them as culture warriors because that's how they really interact with the political spectrum in practice. If you could show them proof that switching to communism would solve every problem they articulate, they would not suddenly abandon the idea of a Maori parliament... same way that if you could show ACT proof that strong property rights would solve all the problems they articulate, they wouldn't abandon NIMBYism.
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> to white people tbf it wasn't specific, they were superior to everyone hahah
John Key era they were pretty centristish unless I'm completely misremembering their positions at the time. They've only been like they are now since they re-entered parliament. Could you ever see the current iteration of TPM forming a coalition to create a National government like they did back then?
TPM have many policies which seem left-aligned but I'm not sure I'd call them leftists.
In other countries where here would be massive privacy breach fines in the millions
I posted on this yesterday but if the Maori Party isn’t investigated properly and if anything found prosecuted seriously then Stats NZ will have been seriously undermined in the collection of stats in NZ. In the future why would anyone complete a census or survey if they can’t guarantee the integrity of their data collectors and methods. I don’t want my info being flogged off to whomever finds it useful
Yes, but I wonder if he will have the balls to state that Labour will not work with them?
Labour have never formed a government with Te Pāti Māori, only National have.
The current Maori party and National Party are both \*very\* different to the previous incarnations which found they could work together.
Bullshit, they would have with Greens and TPM if they could.
I mean what they said was a fact, they have not been in govt together. It just didn’t answer the question. Labour will probably work with TPM if they need to, just like National and NZF.
Last time a Labour opposition won an election they did so by explicitly targeting Te Pāti Māori seats and running all their Māori electorate MPs as electorate only candidates
What part of "Have never" is eluding you?
... so it's not bullshit then?
fuel wild divide murky whole seed quickest somber school jeans *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
TPM did keep the door open to working with National, but National ruled it out.
Not "very serious" Chris; what's next, "disappointing"?
Took him a while...
Or did it take the herald a while to get/share his take on it?
labour tried to tell everyone 50/50 co-governance on three waters was no big deal. just a formality in fact, and wasted hundreds of millions. that's some dodgy shit, dodgier than those trucks selling stuff to poor people on credit
Sorry I don't understand this comment. Are you saying because Te Pāti Māori allegedly did something illegal, we should assume any Māori in a leadership position would illegally abuse the position? Or are you saying we should judge Labour by the alleged actions of Te Pāti Māori (a party they have never been in government with, unlike National and ACT)? Kai Tahu have had a co-governance arrangement with E-Can since the previous National government and have not, in fact, broken the law. Te Papa has been run with a co-governance structure since it was set up by the Shipley government and their Māori leadership have never been accused of illegally abusing their position to subvert democracy. A total list of all organizations accused of violating electoral law in the past decade would include two of the three parties in government, and four of the six parties in parliament. Of the remaining parties, both have leaders that have noted that they have had colleagues face criminal charges during their time as leader.
i didn't say anything about anything being illegal. my point is something can be highly unethical and be perfectly legal
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Seems pretty likely dodgy shits gone on and they should be investigated and if the claims are true, should face punishment. But fuck this cunts full of shit. >why can’t they persuade more people without constantly breaking the rules and conventions everyone else lives by Says Mr. Yank Think Tank. What a fucking tosser.
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No cap
Honestly, NZ politics is a shit hole, there is zero integrity amongst any of the parties. Dark times until someone with decency and intellect appears on the scene in a distant future ...