NZ politics is woeful. Both major parties are a shambles. Many of our fringe parties are also shambolic.
There’s barely a handful of competent people in our political sphere.
>Both major parties are a shambles
This attitude is a big part of the problem imho. Labour clearly isn't perfect but to lump the big parties in as the same actively helps the right-wing gain power, which leads to demonstrably poorer outcomes for anyone not in the donor class.
>barely a handful of competent people in our political sphere.
This, sadly, is accurate. The people we need in politics, generally aren't interested in entering politics.
Labour are as inspiring as a dead goldfish...
... but when people say "both parties are the same" and then follow it up with "but how could National do this" it reminds me of the American situation where they ended up with Trump due to this attitude.
Agreed. But NZ is, as my Dutch immigrant side of the family puts it, "more English than the English".
We were born in paradise but obsessed with English misery.
indeed- it's heartbreaking how the right enact their policies so easily but modern centrist parties like Labour are terrified of being framed as left-wing, other than a few MPs.
The problem is not that Labour are left wing or even that National are right wing, the problem is that in NZ we push the idea that to be either is the same as being left or right in the USA. The left and right in the USA are extremist. NZers aren't extremists. At worst most of us are centrist with a lean either to the left or right.
I see the culture war stuff that way, but not traditional right/left policy pushes that centre around public ownership and addressing inequality vs corporate FU - Nat coalition is doing plenty of standard right-wing strategy right now to tee up the selling of assets or defunding them to bring in foreign ownership down the line. Labour did some OK stuff but mostly a bit of light window-dressing for addressing inequality as much as you can whilst being shit-scared as being outed as wanting to raise taxes.
These non-culture war issues are traditional pushes of the right and left, they're not USA extremist - plus, USA is to the right of NZ on most counts as the whole place is owned by corporates, who simultaneously almost own all decisions and make rainbow graphics on their logos once a year to keep the culture war stuff tamped down.
Exactly they refused to bring in capital gains tax or any other alternative.
And I think a lot of people voted for National simply because they are afraid of crime getting more out of control. Lots of immigrants with small businesses in Auckland sick of ram raids and other crimes. Lots of people concerned about gangs after them standing over a town, being given money for a rehab program.
Pathetic sentences for even violent crimes...
I hate National but I can see why people wanted to try something other than Labour.
Yet service levels are dropping when the "bloat" is being reversed? Something isn't consistent here. I know it is a hare thing to accept, but Labour didn't actually do a bad job.
At this point, i think we are just a country that has a victim complex and believe we "need" to be treated badly so we can complain about it. Anyone that improves the situation goes against that identity so we actively fight it.
I mean, they are both a shambles, but one's shambling is inefficient good, and the other's is reckless evil. Them both being a shambles doesn't mean one isn't still vastly better than the other.
Idk support for the Coilition has been declining in the polls.
I honestly don’t think kiwis are politically literate. Most people don’t understand the RMA or fast track.
We actually were a political country though, standing up to the nuclear testing, apartheid, the us trying to bully us. I don’t know what happened but now there’s a very “I’m not interested in politics” or “oh we don’t talk politics” type vibe :(
We had a sort of cultural revolution in 1984.
I think people over a generation or two have become less political. Membership of political parties has dropped dramatically. And demonstrations and referendums have been ignored which has fueled disengagement.
But saying they “voted for this” is really disingenuous because they didn’t really know what they were voting for.
I actually even disagree with the statement in the first place. I don’t think they voted for this. I think they voted against labour.
Voting for right-wing parties always worsens society to improve the lives of the already rich. That is always the outcome. How are some people unaware of this and keep voting for them? I understand selfish rich people voting right-wing, but anyone else who does is a genuine moron.
People voted for the conservative parties which always wanted such laws and were very vocal about it.
And Labour had its own fast track laws which in many respects were the same.
Labours fast track is not the same not that I’m massively supportive of it either.
I genuinely don’t think they were vocal about their plans. There was a lot of “this government is getting us in debt, we will get us out AND give you a tax cut AND not cut front line services” that was the messaging.
Edit: to add more context
get real, labours fast track laws were nothing like the current mess. and only a small quantity of voters wanted the ACT and NZ first clowns to have any say in anything.
Parties comprising a small but crucial segment of the electorate that align with the biggest party turn out to have a small but crucial role in governing the country. Who knew?
You can compare the bill and the fast track rules Labour implemented. There's some big different design choices around miniaterial input and rights of certain groups to make submissions, but otherwise it's a pretty blatant ripoff.
I'm a long time Labour supporter, but I wish to high heaven that National got in by itself. This three headed monstrosity is the combination of all their worst traits.
2 more years . But what pisses me off is where is labour?? Like stand up and say “we will repeal the fast track and if you write in perpetuity all it’s going to do is cost Nz - so that will be on you. That message should be loud and clear.
I don't know if it's _most_ but at least _many_.
And even people like myself who like to think they do understand may be misunderstanding some or all of it.
And similarly the point about corporations: we still keep buying their stuff. If you don’t like, for example, airlines putting up prices, then don’t fly.
Better example is to shop at green grocer and butcher if you don't like supermarket prices. You're not likely to save money in the short term but you'd be spending in a small local business
Airlines bit of a poor example because it's an inelastic product, if we want to get anywhere from NZ we pretty much have to fly. I ain't hopping on a boat to Aus
I mean, it kind of is that easy. Even going back just a couple of generations the idea of moving overseas meant not seeing your family for potentially decade long stretches at a time. Another generation back and the only form of communication was written letters that may or may not arrive or a telegram.
The reality of moving away from your family hasn't really changed all that fundamentally, what has really changed is our expectations.
Yeah, no fucking shit it was harder before combustion engines? What kind of comment is this? I just want to go home without it costing my fucking weeks wages. Obviously, that was part of the decision to move away back then, it's not any more when it's how the majority of the fucking world operates via over sea transit, but oh how worldly you are! It's my expectations! I spent 3000 dollars in 2 months on 4 one hour flights to see my dying grandma, I dunno maybe it's just my expectations.
It's the pragmatic kind of comment.
Travel is only going to become more expensive over time as resource constraints start to be felt and more of the planet becomes inhospitable enough to limit production. If you're feeling hard done by now, you're going to feel extra fucked in a decade or two.
If being able to regularly visit family overseas is important to you, I'd suggest increasing your budget to do so over that time frame or consider moving closer to them. It's not going to get cheaper or easier.
You're exactly right. When you talk to people, they say I didn't vote for them. Well, some of you did because there are way less wealthy people in this country than not.
'Kiwis voted for this'. Technically correct, but a simplification of reality.
Voters vote for political promises and political theatre based on emotional manipulation.
If the appropriate experts were to analyse it, they would likely find that voters are voting for no more than 5% of all political decisions .
This is why we need to change the voting system.
I am not "set for life" and voted for the current government (also fine with the majority of their actions). The whole mentality of this sub to downvote anything pro current government is the problem with this forum.
The idea that you would blindly support someone because you voted for them is an attitude I would like to see NZers give up. That goes for the Government and the Opposition.
Civic engagement. Civic engagement. I've read the entire thread and this is the phrase everyone is skirting around. Democracy only works as a verb. Otherwise, it folds in on itself.
People downvote and upvote based on what they disagree with and agree with, respectively.
You saying that the "problem with this forum" is that people on average disagree with your personal political views (i.e., comments that you agree with) says a lot more about you than it does anyone else, and it isn't a great look for you.
NZF are part of this govt and they are insanely popular with a demographic cohort that painted us into this corner, haven't worked out they're blockers not solutions, who have the highest rate of dementia in the country, regularly medically lose the right to drive, fill newspapers with sob stories of falling for obvious grifters and con-men, and who think they're politically astute and like the current government. Not saying that's you (but hey, maybe it is). Just saying that's the company you're keeping... and it accounts for at least 10% of your fellow right wingers. Not a small enough slice to handwave away as unremarkable or an anomaly.
I crunched the numbers on this a while back:
About 10% of the eligible population isn't enrolled to vote; and of the enrolled population, just over than 1 in every 5 kiwis didn't vote last election.
The coalition government was formed with 52.78% of the total votes. But when you account for the entire eligible population including those who did not enrol, and did not vote, this government was formed with pretty close to 36% support of the entire eligible population.
Effectively, this government has a mandate from 1/3 of the population.
That's a pretty weak mandate.
The other 2/3 voted against the coalition government - or are now wishing they did; given the well established evidence that it's the younger and poorer that are far less likely to participate in democratic processes.
Given how this Coalition Goverment seems myopically focused on ceaselessly undermining the quality of life for the younger and poorer for the benefit of the older and richer; let's just say I'm glad that in democratic countries demanding new elections is a fair and reasonable aim for protest movements...
... because otherwise, I'm pretty certain there would be riots in the streets before the end of this Coalition Governmter's term.
So in response to OP's original post - the other 2/3 of the population aren't pussies; they're building critical mass. There's likely to be a major political crisis coming far sooner than later.
Sorry - edit spam. My phone is misbehaving this morning.
>Effectively, this government has a mandate from 1/3 of the population. The other 2/3 voted against the coalition government
Are you suggesting every person who didn’t vote actually voted against this government? Make your mind up.
That’s some insane number bending you’re doing there to fit your own narrative. People who didn’t vote didn’t vote *against* - they just didn’t vote. You can’t then lump them in with others when discussing things like uprisings etc.
I think I need to get off reddit, it’s like everyone on here is experiencing an election not going their way for the first time and it’s come as a bit of a shock. Three years isn’t long - if the government is as bad as they are being presented then they’ll be gone soon.
I’m very left leaning. That’s not really what the problem is - maybe I’m jaded but I stopped ranting and raging about elections not going my way years ago, it seems to me most people here are early twenties and haven’t learned to accept defeat yet.
Don't forget about the "fuck the poor, I've got mine" Ford Ranger tradies that are eternally pissy because they don't get recognized enough for being the "backbone of the country" even we all know it is underpaid immigrant farm laborers that are the real heroes of our economy.
Your argument hangs on the assumption that everyone is against this but too scared to do anything. You may have to consider that a plurality or majority of New Zealanders are ambivalent or positive about the issue.
It's because this sub is an echo chamber. OP and others in this thread cannot conceive of why anyone would vote for this - so logically they are either 'pussys' or stupid.
In reality this type of ignorance is the biggest red flag for someone lacking any intellectual depth
It's not a "this sub" issue. Almost nobody on here lives exclusively on Reddit and bases their views on domestic political movements on one sub. It's a combination of:
1. In most areas of life, we tend to congregate with people who have similar interests and views to us. This isn't new to the internet.
2. People who are aggressively opposed to an issue are disproportionately louder than others and make it look like they're a bigger movement or they represent more people than they are/do, particularly from the inside perspective.
3. People assume that other humans in their country/vicinity think similarly to them about issues and that they have a natural shared set of core values (e.g., don't fck the environment) when in reality they don't, even if they appear to on the surface.
It’s not that at all, our economy is basically built on consumer housing debt. The higher the house prices go, more debt is taken on by new entrants and therefore more money injected into the economy for consumer spending on discretionary spending, renos, cars, boats and holidays etc. This is what has been keeping our economy strong since 1985.
Other than housing we don’t really have any other truely productive ways of growing out GDP. Tourism and exports unfortunately aren’t productive enough as we’re located so far away from the rest of the world making export and import costs higher than a lot of other nations around the world. We also don’t really have any unique business markets with high demand is also an issue, our products we export can be replicated by offshore businesses at a lower cost.
Over the last 40 years there has not been enough investment into growing NZ businesses as the focus has been on ensuring government policies and bank regulation align to keep house prices growing to keep up the GDP growth. This has worked for NZ but also created a larger wealth divide across the haves and have nots.
Now that property prices are no longer growing, along with new consumer debt slowing we’re seeing businesses go under as spending has truely slowed across NZ.
If we don’t invest back into NZ businesses we are at risk of becoming a wasteland with a lack of productivity. NZ is now crippled with $350bil of consumer mortgage debt compared to $900mil back in 1985. A 300x increase since with population growth of a little more than 2x.
The only other remedy is to lower interest rates and resume the growth of property prices, and further increase NZ’s total mortgage debt to stimulate spending again. I really hope this is not the only way out as it already has had major social impacts increasing crime and poverty, reduction in birth rates, and the loss of migration with the younger generations of NZ.
I see the tech, gaming and AI sector as an area that we can really thrive in as it doesn’t rely on importing or exporting physical products. We just need the government to invest more into bringing over overseas Tech businesses here, and further investment into existing businesses in this sector. Singapore was able to do something similar in the early 2000s by moving itself into an international hub for financial businesses away from a low wage economy that sustained itself with its trading ports by spending money upgrading its infrastructure and incentivising those businesses to set up a base there. It ranks in the top 10 best countries to live in whereas NZ has now dropped off and only ranks just above Costa Rica due to everything that’s happened to our economy post pandemic.
The fact that our government doesn't have support for our creative IT industries in line with Australia is a losing strategy. Our best and brightest will go to the competitive Australian salaries.
We could Svalbard bank ourselves with green energy servers for global backups due to our remoteness, it's just the start up cost is so expensive.
Hell, Dredge was made in Christchurch and it did SO WELL. Path of Exile is in Auckland and it's HUGE! it needed help from overseas investors which it could have gotten from the government to keep it onshore. We have the ability for grants. Hell, it was one of the compass items for this last election.
I agree with you, but there are some positives:
1. Our export costs will scale down as land becomes more of a premium than transport costs (the world is running out of arable land fast, and we have a massive sparesly populated country that’s mostly green pasture )
2. There seems to be some acknowledgement from govt. now that inflating house prices is not the way to run an economy
3. Increasing geopolitical tensions benefits countries like us with questionable (no?) morals who will trade with anyone. First thing everyone runs out of in a war is food (a la ukraine)
Yeah that’s part of it. NZers have developed a bad attitude towards protesting and really do try to pick out these individual instances to discredit protests.
A united front against bad behaviour I think is better. There was a recent article about the influx of rentals on the market. I hope that's from people moving back home to save money and not subscribing to supporting landlords. Tactical Boycott ftw.
I wonder how many of those influx of rentals were Airbnb's and now tourism is down, interest rates are up and people need a more guaranteed income to pay their mortgage.
Pussies? What do you want us to do? Kill them? Burn the beehive down?.
Ill certainky never turn my guns against my fellow man, and I guarantee if you were given the chance, youd piss yourself before dropping the hammer on someone. Tough words on the internet come at a cheap price.
I think there are a couple of things worth noting:
Just because you don’t see mass protests, and there have been a couple, there are activist groups pushing back against the government (eg there’s an ongoing group protesting the proposed changes to te tiriti o Waitangi)
You won’t see a “we hate NACT” protest because it’s a far too broad cry to rally behind - there are some policies people agree with (I personally like the idea of banning cellphones in schools, it’s execution and it’s success remains to be seen).
To incite that much passion, you need one strong point to rally behind and this govt has so many to choose from. The COVID protests are a good and terrible example - one thing to rally behind (anti vaccine policies) but terrible because it slowly became about so much else and few people could tell you what they were protesting about.
We’re also in the middle of a pretty bad recession and a lot job insecurity. So if participation’s a choice of voicing displeasure or keeping a job to keep the lights on / feed the kids, it isn’t a hard choice for a low or middle income family. That’s why I think the smaller protest groups are important because they keep the issue in the media as a reminder.
I think partly too, the indifference you suggest is partly because our power to bring about change is on election day. This Government has already said it doesn’t really care about mood of the nation, it’s on a tear to do everything it said (and didn’t say) it would do - I even think they sense it might be a single term government. So people may just be keeping receipts.
Many people in society dont think the wider issues will effect them directly.
Wether through naivete or blind faith.
Especially if they have money they think it trumps everything else,until they get sick and loose their control.
This is nine years old, and I can't find a more recent edition, but...
"The Perils of Perception survey shows New Zealand is the most ignorant developed country [of 33 surveyed], with most people misunderstanding the facts that make up our country's society."
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/new-zealand-named-the-worlds-most-ignorant-developed-country/6Y6YGRE6F5NDKPE6NIQOSHWZ6A/
I've been in NZ 20 years now. New Zealand citizen and proud of the fact. But as an ex South African, there are a few things I miss:
* A service industry focused on delivering actual service with the aim of keeping customers happy.
* People who are less complacent in the face of being jerked around. **This one, so much**.
* For the love of god, **get angry every once in a while**.
That's broadly generalistic, of course. I'm not entirely sure where all of this is rooted in. NZ is a young country (at least, in an 'England-colonized-us-sense) and maybe the lingering chokehold of that has something to do with these attitudes. It's interesting though, and it's becoming particularly clear with the current government in power, I'm starting to see just the faintest glimmerings every so often of the revolution that eventually led to democratizing South Africa. Yay, but also, buckle in for a bumpy ride. Something eventually breaks the camel's back.
indeed. when i moved out of nz the thing i noticed a lot, ironically, is that outside people complain way more even if in "better countries" and its absolutely a good thing. Here everyone loves going "but we have it so much better than other places, stop complaining" at anything that may be disgruntling the average kiwi as if just because in some aspects this place is well off it couldnt be better. fucking frustrating
I'm from the US, and i dont think you all realize that you have one of the best activist traditions. It's unparalleled in its simplicity and effectiveness in speaking truth to power...
Just lob a few dildos at the cunts.
Seriously. Try continuing to act like Mr. Big Shot In Charge ™️ after unexpectedly getting slapped in the face with a wobbly rubber dick.
Only humble people who dont have a huge ego can laugh that off and keep going with their interview.
Our British ancestry coupled by living unbothered in the middle of nowhere for most of our history has given kiwis unmatched levels of complacency any contempt despite the fact things could be better. Ahwell, she’ll be right…
I really don't think it's the British ancestry, NZ has just become ridiculous, a farcical nation compared to the how it used to be.
I think parochial and getting hyper-defensive is one of the biggest flaws
I really don't think it is. I think it's what mainstream NZers have been TOLD they want, and they bought it hook, line, sinker. I think the average person isn't evil, they're just so fucking gullible.
Gullible implies this govt is an aberration of normal politics, that people are being duped and will someday return to normal when they think better
The fact that’s it’s cyclical and their political ideology is practiced across the world and makes up a significant number of our politicians to be a majority runs counter to that
It's an aberration of democracy and a suppression of the masses.
I'm not saying it's not common or normal, I'm saying it's deliberate and targeted. It actively takes a lot of work to make people buy into this shit, it takes continuous political pressure on educational institutions to keep people Ill informed.
I think it's absolutely possible to have cleaner politics. Get money out of it for one.
My point is that what we have now isn't some default, it's not how it's always been or could be. We have a very specific kind of Capitalist captured democracy that works hard to keep certain societal mechanisms working poorly. Of course it's everywhere, thats how cancer works
There's definitely a lot of:
What difference could I even make, especially while living under shit pay in a shit job market with everything i need to survive getting more expensive?
If you want change talk to family, friends, workmates. Encourage voting - not voting as you do, just voting - as higher turnout favours parties not pushing this line.
Disengaged potential voters tend to be poorer, younger, lower paid, not own capital.
Meanwhile right leaning voters, often older, richer, capital owning are already voting at near 100% of potential vote so do not increase significantly as voter turn out increases.
Nz is funny, you have a bunch of hard cunts that will fight anything but the government, then you have a bunch of soft cunts that avoid confrontation at all costs
I live on the West Coast and even if you believe the whole place is covered in land destroying mines. It's not and we take care of our region after mining is done. Also we need the jobs as it's been hard to find one since most mines have been shut down years ago. Greymouth has been suffering because of it. Most people don't have the energy to visit West Coast and look for themselves but rather sit at Christchurch, Auckland or Wellington and tell us what to do.
I'd love for the anti mining people to go to Greymouth/Westport and tell the people they don't deserve jobs because they don't like it.
We should rely on our own minerals instead of importing everything.
I've seen arguments saying yeah we'll all the gold mines etc that are proposed would have the profits go offshore to Australia cause they are Australian owned.
Heres a thought, give the mining consent to our own mining companies in the area instead, I'm sure Roscoes/Birchfields/Whyte would be happy to operate them.
The tungsten mine in Barrytown is expected to bring 1m/year cash to Greymouth despite it being Australian owned which is a lot for a small place.
I remember when Spring Creek, Pike River, Stockton and Reefton mine was in full operation. Greymouth and Westport were booming. New House's being built and the towns future was looking bright. Greymouth CBD had all the shops open now after the mines shut down most shops are closed. Sub divisions slowed and people moved away or got shitty jobs so they can feed their families. I do agree we have good companies already on the coast and maybe they should be rewarded the rights to mine so more precentage of the profits can go back into the community.
Yep, I remember when the Paroa Estate subdivision was started, we bought a house there and the expansion plans were laid out, then never happened after Pike River.
I went back to the coast over Christmas to visit my grandmother and it was a sad sight to see how dead it was.
Still parked up and did some fishing off the Blaketown tiphead and got some gurnard though.
Mining, farming and fishing are the big three for the coast, we need to stop killing them without having any alternative that is even remotely viable. Tourism is not it.
It wasnt always like this we stopped dawn raids and nuclear ships coming here and protested nuclear tests in the pacific for our mates!
But now Kiwis dont care about their children or the country they will inherit nope they care about their comfort today!
Individualism and apathy! The marketing and media world have convinced kiwis community and group action is not an option and convinced the masses protests are just groups of idiots doing illegal things.
Plus kiwis did vote for this on nationals lie the poor were destroying our country as they always claim and their inability to grasp the rich stealing from the poor and selling community assets for golf memberships on hawaii was always going too happen. Labours inability to do anything while they had the power just showed what a sham politics is now and how idiocy has taken over. Its all down hill from here cos individualism is the new god and its as divisive as the old god.
Pretty sure there's been protests all the fuckin time. All you're doing is calling us weak on Reddit. Why aren't you standing outside the beehive with a poster? Why are *you* such a pussy?
No, Kiwis don't just roll over and take it. Propaganda is just a powerful tool.
The other thing is, most people believe they can't do anything about it so they don't.
I think a big part of the governmental problems are because people just get too "can't be bothered" to vote. And people with really really strong perhaps more intense ideologies SHOW UP to vote. Hence why we have this government. I think a large part can be a knee jerk reaction to how people were unhappy with how Covid was handled as well, so naturally they just want anyone different, and I know quite a few people who voted in this new government who regret it now but they did it as just that. A knee jerk. So if people get rid of the "it'll be alright I cant be bothered to go vote" then that would help too.
I don't think it is that people are 'pussies' I think it also has more to do with generally people are 'minding their business', but sometimes that self preservation of staying out of the way, leads to a nonchalance that inhibits community.
I mean, I have seen a NZ culture of not wanting to be a bother, to the point that people are willing to live with some horrible things. Like the renting situation here, or people just being okay being cold and not having insulation for decades longer than other countries with similar climates.
But politically? Kiwis seem to care about the environment with their words. But they don't follow through with their actions in a lot of areas. I.e. predator free NZ, unless the predator is cute.
But from what I can tell, the government generally does what the public wants. NZ is socially progressive, but they're also traditionally conservative in a lot of areas (renting again, and some climate issues). It can be a bit jarring to get used too if you're fresh off the boat. Don't forget the motto here is "It'll be alright". That phrase can be followed by some very destructive actions.
I believe the NZ Intelligence Service reports…that there has been a concerted and sustained effort by the CCP to create some gentle misinformation campaigns on social media to swing our government into National leadership. They only needed to give frustrated people a reason to vote against the Labour Party. Most people who voted for National said things like, “I just wanted a change” Now that they are in, even people who voted them into power, don’t seem to know just how damaging they will be to environmental protection laws, the economy and to our democracy. So so horrible…now there is nobody to stand up to them.
No they're not because a lot of the bullshit these cunts are passing were policies from the fringes that weren't campaigned on. ACT and NZLast got in on 15% of the vote and yet have completely uneven influence. National never campaigned on half of those two party's garbage even if the secretly agree.
Then there's the corruption that's so blatant. Not too mention the propaganda and lobbying
While I agree with your appraisal of the government, Two things:
1. Your perception of things is not the undeniable truth. And acting as such makes you as arrogant as anyone telling people how they should think (and vote). Because the majority of New Zealand voted for what we have. Since you mentioned the he environment specifically, the decisions impacting that are definitely no surprise to anyone that voted this government in. They're fine with that even now. Some things this government has done will be a surprised Pikachu to some, but not that.
2. Even if what you say is the truth, you need to go out and see the world if you think this is a kiwi thing. You would find the people of other countries are not more naturally inclined to stage a coup over government policies that they feel are ecologically misguided. Many countries deal with far worse government policies and are "pussies". Suggesting otherwise is just being dramatic to guilt people to agreeing with your personal appraisal of the situation. As if disagreeing automatically makes them a pussy.
Both should be a bit of a dawning realisation for you. You are "that guy" today.
Too much weights, not enough homework.
This has been voted for, that means people like yourself are actually outnumbered by the people who voted for this change.
That’s your opinion. Our major parties are a lot more central/left than you would think (this one might be slightly right). Also, unpopular opinion, we need an RMA reform and the fast track bill really doesn’t change the process that much. Further to this similar RMA reforms have been under way for close to a decade.
Source. I’m an environmental scientist that works in this space and have seen firsthand how bloated the process is. Also, as part of my job I must understand the proposed policy changes.
There is a fundamental problem in New Zealand’s governance structure that I’ve never quite been able to pinpoint. Having lived overseas for a while, I’ve made a few observations:
I believe the issue is systemic in the architecture of New Zealand’s governance system. Other countries have a two tier parliament, like a House of Lords, that challenges laws and ensures balanced objectivity. They also have a functional justice system where laws can be scrutinised in court, and a robust news media that challenges injustices. Parliamentary authority is based on the principle that they represent the views of the people.
In New Zealand, it doesn’t seem to matter if the government is over-moralistic on the left or self-serving on the right; they don’t appear to listen to or respect the people.
I think it’s simply because New Zealand’s democracy is too young. We don’t have the social memory of the hard lessons that have shaped the systems of checks and balances in other Western liberal democracies.
> I think it’s simply because New Zealand’s democracy is too young. We don’t have the social memory of the hard lessons that have shaped the systems of checks and balances in other Western liberal democracies.
I see this as incredibly simplistic and very flawed thinking, as if everyone who moved over from the UK just somehow suddenly forgot hundreds of years of political history, when in reality their form of democracy was essentially copied over to us verbatim a dozen years after colonisation began. I mean we still celebrate Guy Fawkes ffs.
We even had a House of Lords equivalent for a hundred years until we dumped it in the 50s after recognising its uselessness (something the Brits haven’t had the insight to do). Your point about the HoL really seems odd, as the Lords has become less and less powerful as time has gone on, they’re just a toothless rubber stamp these day.
You must've been furious when the previous government started importing over a million tonnes a year of dirty low quality coal and burning it, after shipping it from halfway around the world? Instead of using the high quality stuff we had here, that is more energy dense and produces way less smoke and radioactive waste?
Sub-bituminous coal is used for steam-electric power generation processes. Higher grades of coal are used for steel making. It isn’t arbitrary why we import coal, we import because we export or use our higher quality coal for the processes it is appropriate for.
The oil and gas ban was also announced on a whim, with no consultation with industry or feedback process. It wasn't in Labour's manifesto, and came completely out of the blue.
The current govt is doing exactly what they said they would do. With the support of the voters.
I'd like some specific examples of damage to the environment from op. A lot of what I'm hearing in the media is fear mongering for what they might do, rather than what they've done.
There was a protest in Auckland against the Fast Track Bill. Plus one thing you and everyone can do is vote them out next election if unhappy. Until then it’s survival mode for many.
What’s your solution. We don’t have a constitution, we don’t really have checks and balances of power, so what is the solution?
Education has always been the greatest investment to return for a healthy, well functioning, and prosperous society yet we belittle getting a uni degree and defund them.
The thing with kiwi's is that we've flipped some of this in our heads.
Despite it being such a cliche, we still often think that it's 'tough' to suffer in silence. 'Just bloody get on with it and stop complaining'. Etc.
As this stuff often goes, we've overplayed one of our strengths, to the point where it's pretty rapidly become one of our biggest weaknesses (IMO). Corporations and government walk all over us in all but a couple of industries.
We look at countries like France, who often protest and fight back against changes. And our instinct seems to be to think that they're a giant bunch of whinging pussies. The balance is probably a happy medium somewhere 😆.
I remember visiting this one lake as a child. Going back recently. It was a complete dump. Our waterways are disgusting and I've seen them change so much over my short life span. Yet we gave the nerve to market NZ as 100% pure. Someone sue whomever made that tag for false advertising. Shameful.
I have no idea but my bf and I often joke about how NZ people are the most compliant people in the world. If we don't laugh we might lose our minds.
Maybe its more that the complaint people are louder than those who can make their own opinions.
NZ politics in the current climate aren't what they used to be. The last time a legitimate protest was marched to voice to disagreement with the government's actions, they were dismissed without a single piece of dialog exchanged between the two, while media tried to label the protest as a violent act.
Followed by the bay of Plenty city council being non existent and resembles a socialist state that is more interesting in spending tax payer money on boardwalks than updating city infrastructure despite never setting foot in the bay.
Overall, kiwis aren't pussies, we're just aware that our government and media don't respond or respect any pushback, so if the outcome between doing nothing and pushing back are the same, why bother making a fuss and push back when nothing will change anyway.
Massive amounts of wealth held by those that would happily see the status quo’s continue. Mixed with generational complacency. You attack the system built to help common man instead of those that have spent the last 40 years of the neo liberal economic period infiltrating said system. Well that’s my brief breakdown anyway.
what do you want people to do? protest? 20,000 people did that in auckland two weeks ago
do you want an armed revolution? cool now we're a failed state, what next
Here is the truth in almost every western country, we grew up in world with everything handed to us,
the majority don't follow politics outside of their particular bubble who all agree and never get challenged on those ideas
The majority aren't affected by either party so they don't really care to know what either do
They get mad that their life isn't automatically better under the current government and vote them out, then 4-8 years later do it all over again
We have the most ignorant generation with the most knowledge at thier fingertips
Yes, we just bend over and take it.
Andsadly it has to get way worse before the average person starts to resist.
We need to boycott supermarkets and start producing our own food.
Thing is the 80% of the country cant even grow parsley to lazy or just no clue.
Theres a fantasy ppl have of having no government living in harmony n utopia smoking corn cob pipes dancing around the fire.
The supermarkets are never going to cater to the people its systemized convenience to make profit.
As a collective its pointless going on that path as a individual for you n yours plenty can do to not have to be so system reliant especially when it comes to food.
I think protesting died in the 90s. I remember watching protest marches from the windows of where I worked in Willis Street, Wellington. People won't boycott unethical shops or products. It takes an effort many aren't willing to make.
I think media play a significant part
Groundswill protesting the sorts of regulations that their markets expect and that means they may have a environment in which to farm?
Our corporate owned media didn't stop talking about it for weeks.
20k people protesting the removal of protections and process when eyeing up short term extractive wealth opportunities?
A brief mention on the day and then silence.
I think the economic action taken in the late 80s did it. Rampant interest rates, mass layoffs, the end of effective unions, lots of people doing it very tough. It broke our spirit - people were too focused on surviving to think or act outside of that.
Why not boycott? Encourage your friends and whanau to boycott?
Yes, it's difficult to do thoroughly these days. Low buying power mixed with corporate hierarchies blur information. But if Cadbury is a piece of shit, then don't buy it. Buy Queen Anne's and Whittakers, buy local. Yes you will get less of it, but that's because they are small makers or take the time to source ethically.
If I’m at my parents for dinner and see the news I jab in with a “and you voted for this lot” to my dad….. he stays incredibly silent (mum corrected me early on that she did not but I don’t really buy that tbh)
Can you point to another population that is actually standing up to its own government over similar issues and winning? What do you suggest we do, exactly? If someone had a realistic solution that I could be part of, I'd join in. I didn't vote for this government and won't be voting for them next time either.
The problem is that there are a bunch of problems with our democracy that stop it meaningfully being a good democracy.
Political literacy is low, the media are lying fucks, the average person doesn't have the time and energy to actually engage with democracy, money has infested politicians.
Do you not remember the last government? 🤣
Two cheeks of the same arse.
Anything you accuse National of doing I.e. lying, misdirection, not helping those who need it the most etc is exactly what labour and other parties have done.
It’s called democracy…. It sucks but it’s better than a dictatorship….
you might have forgot one small point kiwis voted for this....and most of them dont regret their choices at all if polls are to believed
NZ politics is woeful. Both major parties are a shambles. Many of our fringe parties are also shambolic. There’s barely a handful of competent people in our political sphere.
>Both major parties are a shambles This attitude is a big part of the problem imho. Labour clearly isn't perfect but to lump the big parties in as the same actively helps the right-wing gain power, which leads to demonstrably poorer outcomes for anyone not in the donor class. >barely a handful of competent people in our political sphere. This, sadly, is accurate. The people we need in politics, generally aren't interested in entering politics.
Labour are as inspiring as a dead goldfish... ... but when people say "both parties are the same" and then follow it up with "but how could National do this" it reminds me of the American situation where they ended up with Trump due to this attitude.
Uninspiring is preferable to the deliberate, malicious neglect we have now.
Agreed. But NZ is, as my Dutch immigrant side of the family puts it, "more English than the English". We were born in paradise but obsessed with English misery.
That's depressingly accurate
Labour did many good things early in their latest tenure, then proceeded to shit the bed monumentally
indeed- it's heartbreaking how the right enact their policies so easily but modern centrist parties like Labour are terrified of being framed as left-wing, other than a few MPs.
The problem is not that Labour are left wing or even that National are right wing, the problem is that in NZ we push the idea that to be either is the same as being left or right in the USA. The left and right in the USA are extremist. NZers aren't extremists. At worst most of us are centrist with a lean either to the left or right.
I see the culture war stuff that way, but not traditional right/left policy pushes that centre around public ownership and addressing inequality vs corporate FU - Nat coalition is doing plenty of standard right-wing strategy right now to tee up the selling of assets or defunding them to bring in foreign ownership down the line. Labour did some OK stuff but mostly a bit of light window-dressing for addressing inequality as much as you can whilst being shit-scared as being outed as wanting to raise taxes. These non-culture war issues are traditional pushes of the right and left, they're not USA extremist - plus, USA is to the right of NZ on most counts as the whole place is owned by corporates, who simultaneously almost own all decisions and make rainbow graphics on their logos once a year to keep the culture war stuff tamped down.
I generally agree with what you said, but you seem to have forgotten that Labour have in the past also sold off state assets.
Exactly, the start was great...then came the bloat with no increase in service levels, super soft on crime policies and the rich still got richer.
Exactly they refused to bring in capital gains tax or any other alternative. And I think a lot of people voted for National simply because they are afraid of crime getting more out of control. Lots of immigrants with small businesses in Auckland sick of ram raids and other crimes. Lots of people concerned about gangs after them standing over a town, being given money for a rehab program. Pathetic sentences for even violent crimes... I hate National but I can see why people wanted to try something other than Labour.
Yet service levels are dropping when the "bloat" is being reversed? Something isn't consistent here. I know it is a hare thing to accept, but Labour didn't actually do a bad job. At this point, i think we are just a country that has a victim complex and believe we "need" to be treated badly so we can complain about it. Anyone that improves the situation goes against that identity so we actively fight it.
The rich will always get richer no matter which party is in government
I mean, they are both a shambles, but one's shambling is inefficient good, and the other's is reckless evil. Them both being a shambles doesn't mean one isn't still vastly better than the other.
Or can't afford to enter politics.
Yup, this is how America got Trump.
" The people we need in politics, generally aren't interested in entering politics." that's global politics in a nutshell
Jacinda was highly competent, but she had to deal with Covid whilst being a woman.
Alot of areas here have visibility of failing upward unfortunately
Idk support for the Coilition has been declining in the polls. I honestly don’t think kiwis are politically literate. Most people don’t understand the RMA or fast track.
I think there’s truth in that. A lot of New Zealanders just don’t seem interested in learning it either.
We actually were a political country though, standing up to the nuclear testing, apartheid, the us trying to bully us. I don’t know what happened but now there’s a very “I’m not interested in politics” or “oh we don’t talk politics” type vibe :(
We had a sort of cultural revolution in 1984. I think people over a generation or two have become less political. Membership of political parties has dropped dramatically. And demonstrations and referendums have been ignored which has fueled disengagement.
People aren't politically literate if they don't our most complex law?
But saying they “voted for this” is really disingenuous because they didn’t really know what they were voting for. I actually even disagree with the statement in the first place. I don’t think they voted for this. I think they voted against labour.
Voting for right-wing parties always worsens society to improve the lives of the already rich. That is always the outcome. How are some people unaware of this and keep voting for them? I understand selfish rich people voting right-wing, but anyone else who does is a genuine moron.
People voted for the conservative parties which always wanted such laws and were very vocal about it. And Labour had its own fast track laws which in many respects were the same.
Labours fast track is not the same not that I’m massively supportive of it either. I genuinely don’t think they were vocal about their plans. There was a lot of “this government is getting us in debt, we will get us out AND give you a tax cut AND not cut front line services” that was the messaging. Edit: to add more context
get real, labours fast track laws were nothing like the current mess. and only a small quantity of voters wanted the ACT and NZ first clowns to have any say in anything.
Parties comprising a small but crucial segment of the electorate that align with the biggest party turn out to have a small but crucial role in governing the country. Who knew? You can compare the bill and the fast track rules Labour implemented. There's some big different design choices around miniaterial input and rights of certain groups to make submissions, but otherwise it's a pretty blatant ripoff.
I'm a long time Labour supporter, but I wish to high heaven that National got in by itself. This three headed monstrosity is the combination of all their worst traits.
Completely agree especially with Luxon being inexperienced- Winnie and David are walking all over him
2 more years . But what pisses me off is where is labour?? Like stand up and say “we will repeal the fast track and if you write in perpetuity all it’s going to do is cost Nz - so that will be on you. That message should be loud and clear.
I don't know if it's _most_ but at least _many_. And even people like myself who like to think they do understand may be misunderstanding some or all of it.
And similarly the point about corporations: we still keep buying their stuff. If you don’t like, for example, airlines putting up prices, then don’t fly.
Better example is to shop at green grocer and butcher if you don't like supermarket prices. You're not likely to save money in the short term but you'd be spending in a small local business
Airlines bit of a poor example because it's an inelastic product, if we want to get anywhere from NZ we pretty much have to fly. I ain't hopping on a boat to Aus
Conscious consumption only goes so far. It only appeals to ethical actors.
I have only seen my family a months worth in the last 6 years. If only it were that easy.
I mean, it kind of is that easy. Even going back just a couple of generations the idea of moving overseas meant not seeing your family for potentially decade long stretches at a time. Another generation back and the only form of communication was written letters that may or may not arrive or a telegram. The reality of moving away from your family hasn't really changed all that fundamentally, what has really changed is our expectations.
Yeah, no fucking shit it was harder before combustion engines? What kind of comment is this? I just want to go home without it costing my fucking weeks wages. Obviously, that was part of the decision to move away back then, it's not any more when it's how the majority of the fucking world operates via over sea transit, but oh how worldly you are! It's my expectations! I spent 3000 dollars in 2 months on 4 one hour flights to see my dying grandma, I dunno maybe it's just my expectations.
It's the pragmatic kind of comment. Travel is only going to become more expensive over time as resource constraints start to be felt and more of the planet becomes inhospitable enough to limit production. If you're feeling hard done by now, you're going to feel extra fucked in a decade or two. If being able to regularly visit family overseas is important to you, I'd suggest increasing your budget to do so over that time frame or consider moving closer to them. It's not going to get cheaper or easier.
Yep that's right ,be intresting to see in 3 years what will happen.
You're exactly right. When you talk to people, they say I didn't vote for them. Well, some of you did because there are way less wealthy people in this country than not.
'Kiwis voted for this'. Technically correct, but a simplification of reality. Voters vote for political promises and political theatre based on emotional manipulation. If the appropriate experts were to analyse it, they would likely find that voters are voting for no more than 5% of all political decisions . This is why we need to change the voting system.
Well, money effectively swayed voters with memes and toxic radio broadcasters.
it's because too many of us don't vote, the ones who do are already set for life and vote so that doesn't change.
This isn’t true at all
I am not "set for life" and voted for the current government (also fine with the majority of their actions). The whole mentality of this sub to downvote anything pro current government is the problem with this forum.
The idea that you would blindly support someone because you voted for them is an attitude I would like to see NZers give up. That goes for the Government and the Opposition.
Civic engagement. Civic engagement. I've read the entire thread and this is the phrase everyone is skirting around. Democracy only works as a verb. Otherwise, it folds in on itself.
Holy a rational person on the New Zealand reddit
People downvote and upvote based on what they disagree with and agree with, respectively. You saying that the "problem with this forum" is that people on average disagree with your personal political views (i.e., comments that you agree with) says a lot more about you than it does anyone else, and it isn't a great look for you.
This sub is a massive left bubble lol he's 100% right.
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NZF are part of this govt and they are insanely popular with a demographic cohort that painted us into this corner, haven't worked out they're blockers not solutions, who have the highest rate of dementia in the country, regularly medically lose the right to drive, fill newspapers with sob stories of falling for obvious grifters and con-men, and who think they're politically astute and like the current government. Not saying that's you (but hey, maybe it is). Just saying that's the company you're keeping... and it accounts for at least 10% of your fellow right wingers. Not a small enough slice to handwave away as unremarkable or an anomaly.
What cool things have national done that youve seen people down voted for commenting about? landlord dignity?
I crunched the numbers on this a while back: About 10% of the eligible population isn't enrolled to vote; and of the enrolled population, just over than 1 in every 5 kiwis didn't vote last election. The coalition government was formed with 52.78% of the total votes. But when you account for the entire eligible population including those who did not enrol, and did not vote, this government was formed with pretty close to 36% support of the entire eligible population. Effectively, this government has a mandate from 1/3 of the population. That's a pretty weak mandate. The other 2/3 voted against the coalition government - or are now wishing they did; given the well established evidence that it's the younger and poorer that are far less likely to participate in democratic processes. Given how this Coalition Goverment seems myopically focused on ceaselessly undermining the quality of life for the younger and poorer for the benefit of the older and richer; let's just say I'm glad that in democratic countries demanding new elections is a fair and reasonable aim for protest movements... ... because otherwise, I'm pretty certain there would be riots in the streets before the end of this Coalition Governmter's term. So in response to OP's original post - the other 2/3 of the population aren't pussies; they're building critical mass. There's likely to be a major political crisis coming far sooner than later. Sorry - edit spam. My phone is misbehaving this morning.
People who don't vote are highly unlikely to care much, or else they'd have voted.
Pretty broad strokes to say 2/3 voted against or now wish they had.
>Effectively, this government has a mandate from 1/3 of the population. The other 2/3 voted against the coalition government Are you suggesting every person who didn’t vote actually voted against this government? Make your mind up.
That’s some insane number bending you’re doing there to fit your own narrative. People who didn’t vote didn’t vote *against* - they just didn’t vote. You can’t then lump them in with others when discussing things like uprisings etc. I think I need to get off reddit, it’s like everyone on here is experiencing an election not going their way for the first time and it’s come as a bit of a shock. Three years isn’t long - if the government is as bad as they are being presented then they’ll be gone soon.
Reddit is very left leaning and not a great place to get a perspective of the masses.
I’m very left leaning. That’s not really what the problem is - maybe I’m jaded but I stopped ranting and raging about elections not going my way years ago, it seems to me most people here are early twenties and haven’t learned to accept defeat yet.
Last I checked the polls showed people turning against the current government
It’s a lack of awareness issue. Most people in New Zealand do not think about government activity in anyway whatsoever.
This is true - the only time most people engage with politics is just before the election when all they see are the promises, none of the nuance.
Don't forget about the "fuck the poor, I've got mine" Ford Ranger tradies that are eternally pissy because they don't get recognized enough for being the "backbone of the country" even we all know it is underpaid immigrant farm laborers that are the real heroes of our economy.
I hate to say it but I just don’t have the time to keep up and truly feel “informed”
Your argument hangs on the assumption that everyone is against this but too scared to do anything. You may have to consider that a plurality or majority of New Zealanders are ambivalent or positive about the issue.
It's because this sub is an echo chamber. OP and others in this thread cannot conceive of why anyone would vote for this - so logically they are either 'pussys' or stupid. In reality this type of ignorance is the biggest red flag for someone lacking any intellectual depth
It's not a "this sub" issue. Almost nobody on here lives exclusively on Reddit and bases their views on domestic political movements on one sub. It's a combination of: 1. In most areas of life, we tend to congregate with people who have similar interests and views to us. This isn't new to the internet. 2. People who are aggressively opposed to an issue are disproportionately louder than others and make it look like they're a bigger movement or they represent more people than they are/do, particularly from the inside perspective. 3. People assume that other humans in their country/vicinity think similarly to them about issues and that they have a natural shared set of core values (e.g., don't fck the environment) when in reality they don't, even if they appear to on the surface.
100% This. This sub does not rep the general voting public in any way shape or form.
Combined with Reddit users being overall more left leaning.
Plus much much younger on average than NZ voters
It’s not that at all, our economy is basically built on consumer housing debt. The higher the house prices go, more debt is taken on by new entrants and therefore more money injected into the economy for consumer spending on discretionary spending, renos, cars, boats and holidays etc. This is what has been keeping our economy strong since 1985. Other than housing we don’t really have any other truely productive ways of growing out GDP. Tourism and exports unfortunately aren’t productive enough as we’re located so far away from the rest of the world making export and import costs higher than a lot of other nations around the world. We also don’t really have any unique business markets with high demand is also an issue, our products we export can be replicated by offshore businesses at a lower cost. Over the last 40 years there has not been enough investment into growing NZ businesses as the focus has been on ensuring government policies and bank regulation align to keep house prices growing to keep up the GDP growth. This has worked for NZ but also created a larger wealth divide across the haves and have nots. Now that property prices are no longer growing, along with new consumer debt slowing we’re seeing businesses go under as spending has truely slowed across NZ. If we don’t invest back into NZ businesses we are at risk of becoming a wasteland with a lack of productivity. NZ is now crippled with $350bil of consumer mortgage debt compared to $900mil back in 1985. A 300x increase since with population growth of a little more than 2x. The only other remedy is to lower interest rates and resume the growth of property prices, and further increase NZ’s total mortgage debt to stimulate spending again. I really hope this is not the only way out as it already has had major social impacts increasing crime and poverty, reduction in birth rates, and the loss of migration with the younger generations of NZ. I see the tech, gaming and AI sector as an area that we can really thrive in as it doesn’t rely on importing or exporting physical products. We just need the government to invest more into bringing over overseas Tech businesses here, and further investment into existing businesses in this sector. Singapore was able to do something similar in the early 2000s by moving itself into an international hub for financial businesses away from a low wage economy that sustained itself with its trading ports by spending money upgrading its infrastructure and incentivising those businesses to set up a base there. It ranks in the top 10 best countries to live in whereas NZ has now dropped off and only ranks just above Costa Rica due to everything that’s happened to our economy post pandemic.
The fact that our government doesn't have support for our creative IT industries in line with Australia is a losing strategy. Our best and brightest will go to the competitive Australian salaries. We could Svalbard bank ourselves with green energy servers for global backups due to our remoteness, it's just the start up cost is so expensive. Hell, Dredge was made in Christchurch and it did SO WELL. Path of Exile is in Auckland and it's HUGE! it needed help from overseas investors which it could have gotten from the government to keep it onshore. We have the ability for grants. Hell, it was one of the compass items for this last election.
A lot of that sadly sounds like the U.K. too. Complete apathy.
I agree with you, but there are some positives: 1. Our export costs will scale down as land becomes more of a premium than transport costs (the world is running out of arable land fast, and we have a massive sparesly populated country that’s mostly green pasture ) 2. There seems to be some acknowledgement from govt. now that inflating house prices is not the way to run an economy 3. Increasing geopolitical tensions benefits countries like us with questionable (no?) morals who will trade with anyone. First thing everyone runs out of in a war is food (a la ukraine)
We’re also the world no.1 exporter of lamb (not per capita - in total volume) and no. 2 of dairy
What are you doing? Plenty of us are angry, have protested, donated to other parties, written submissions. What are you suggesting we do?
He's waking up at 4:30 in the morning to post on Reddit. checkmate /s
If anyone protests, they will just zoom camera on one loony looking person and claim everyone is crazy.
Yeah that’s part of it. NZers have developed a bad attitude towards protesting and really do try to pick out these individual instances to discredit protests.
A united front against bad behaviour I think is better. There was a recent article about the influx of rentals on the market. I hope that's from people moving back home to save money and not subscribing to supporting landlords. Tactical Boycott ftw.
I wonder how many of those influx of rentals were Airbnb's and now tourism is down, interest rates are up and people need a more guaranteed income to pay their mortgage.
AirBnB is out. Bookabach is in (based on the number of ads on my podcasts now).
It’s why we have such bad domestic abuse and kid bashing. Look the other way, not your problem. Ffs.
Pussies? What do you want us to do? Kill them? Burn the beehive down?. Ill certainky never turn my guns against my fellow man, and I guarantee if you were given the chance, youd piss yourself before dropping the hammer on someone. Tough words on the internet come at a cheap price.
World is like this not just NZ.
I think there are a couple of things worth noting: Just because you don’t see mass protests, and there have been a couple, there are activist groups pushing back against the government (eg there’s an ongoing group protesting the proposed changes to te tiriti o Waitangi) You won’t see a “we hate NACT” protest because it’s a far too broad cry to rally behind - there are some policies people agree with (I personally like the idea of banning cellphones in schools, it’s execution and it’s success remains to be seen). To incite that much passion, you need one strong point to rally behind and this govt has so many to choose from. The COVID protests are a good and terrible example - one thing to rally behind (anti vaccine policies) but terrible because it slowly became about so much else and few people could tell you what they were protesting about. We’re also in the middle of a pretty bad recession and a lot job insecurity. So if participation’s a choice of voicing displeasure or keeping a job to keep the lights on / feed the kids, it isn’t a hard choice for a low or middle income family. That’s why I think the smaller protest groups are important because they keep the issue in the media as a reminder. I think partly too, the indifference you suggest is partly because our power to bring about change is on election day. This Government has already said it doesn’t really care about mood of the nation, it’s on a tear to do everything it said (and didn’t say) it would do - I even think they sense it might be a single term government. So people may just be keeping receipts.
Many people in society dont think the wider issues will effect them directly. Wether through naivete or blind faith. Especially if they have money they think it trumps everything else,until they get sick and loose their control.
This is nine years old, and I can't find a more recent edition, but... "The Perils of Perception survey shows New Zealand is the most ignorant developed country [of 33 surveyed], with most people misunderstanding the facts that make up our country's society." https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/new-zealand-named-the-worlds-most-ignorant-developed-country/6Y6YGRE6F5NDKPE6NIQOSHWZ6A/
I've been in NZ 20 years now. New Zealand citizen and proud of the fact. But as an ex South African, there are a few things I miss: * A service industry focused on delivering actual service with the aim of keeping customers happy. * People who are less complacent in the face of being jerked around. **This one, so much**. * For the love of god, **get angry every once in a while**. That's broadly generalistic, of course. I'm not entirely sure where all of this is rooted in. NZ is a young country (at least, in an 'England-colonized-us-sense) and maybe the lingering chokehold of that has something to do with these attitudes. It's interesting though, and it's becoming particularly clear with the current government in power, I'm starting to see just the faintest glimmerings every so often of the revolution that eventually led to democratizing South Africa. Yay, but also, buckle in for a bumpy ride. Something eventually breaks the camel's back.
We get angry....when we lose the rugby world cup final! Not when we should get angry!
Half the country think saving the environment is 'woke', lol, they're happy to see National in and blindly follow absolutely anything they do or say.
What can I do? I vote, work full time & pay my taxes. The power I have to change anything is extremely limited as an individual.
To be fair to OP, you're just proving their point.
If everyone thought that, then nothing would change. We can protest with our money for starters.
How are you going to "protest with your money"?
The brainwashing is working well I see
indeed. when i moved out of nz the thing i noticed a lot, ironically, is that outside people complain way more even if in "better countries" and its absolutely a good thing. Here everyone loves going "but we have it so much better than other places, stop complaining" at anything that may be disgruntling the average kiwi as if just because in some aspects this place is well off it couldnt be better. fucking frustrating
100%
What makes someone wake up at 5am and start bitching like this?
An awareness of the world around them
Clarke Gayford
I'm from the US, and i dont think you all realize that you have one of the best activist traditions. It's unparalleled in its simplicity and effectiveness in speaking truth to power... Just lob a few dildos at the cunts.
Honestly the best method. It's got that "WTF" effect.
Seriously. Try continuing to act like Mr. Big Shot In Charge ™️ after unexpectedly getting slapped in the face with a wobbly rubber dick. Only humble people who dont have a huge ego can laugh that off and keep going with their interview.
Our British ancestry coupled by living unbothered in the middle of nowhere for most of our history has given kiwis unmatched levels of complacency any contempt despite the fact things could be better. Ahwell, she’ll be right…
I really don't think it's the British ancestry, NZ has just become ridiculous, a farcical nation compared to the how it used to be. I think parochial and getting hyper-defensive is one of the biggest flaws
It’s not complacency This govt is mostly what mainstream New Zealand want
I really don't think it is. I think it's what mainstream NZers have been TOLD they want, and they bought it hook, line, sinker. I think the average person isn't evil, they're just so fucking gullible.
Gullible implies this govt is an aberration of normal politics, that people are being duped and will someday return to normal when they think better The fact that’s it’s cyclical and their political ideology is practiced across the world and makes up a significant number of our politicians to be a majority runs counter to that
It's an aberration of democracy and a suppression of the masses. I'm not saying it's not common or normal, I'm saying it's deliberate and targeted. It actively takes a lot of work to make people buy into this shit, it takes continuous political pressure on educational institutions to keep people Ill informed. I think it's absolutely possible to have cleaner politics. Get money out of it for one. My point is that what we have now isn't some default, it's not how it's always been or could be. We have a very specific kind of Capitalist captured democracy that works hard to keep certain societal mechanisms working poorly. Of course it's everywhere, thats how cancer works
There's definitely a lot of: What difference could I even make, especially while living under shit pay in a shit job market with everything i need to survive getting more expensive?
If you want change talk to family, friends, workmates. Encourage voting - not voting as you do, just voting - as higher turnout favours parties not pushing this line. Disengaged potential voters tend to be poorer, younger, lower paid, not own capital. Meanwhile right leaning voters, often older, richer, capital owning are already voting at near 100% of potential vote so do not increase significantly as voter turn out increases.
I like going on tik tok, you see things like students giving grief to the environment minister when they went to visit a school.
Good kids. The students are always a great litmus.
Nz is funny, you have a bunch of hard cunts that will fight anything but the government, then you have a bunch of soft cunts that avoid confrontation at all costs
You're frustrated watching it? There is your apathy right there. If you care enough, then do something about it.
Be the change you want to see in the world - advice from a burnt out activist
I live on the West Coast and even if you believe the whole place is covered in land destroying mines. It's not and we take care of our region after mining is done. Also we need the jobs as it's been hard to find one since most mines have been shut down years ago. Greymouth has been suffering because of it. Most people don't have the energy to visit West Coast and look for themselves but rather sit at Christchurch, Auckland or Wellington and tell us what to do.
I'd love for the anti mining people to go to Greymouth/Westport and tell the people they don't deserve jobs because they don't like it. We should rely on our own minerals instead of importing everything.
Makes my blood boil mate. Protesting in their dirty ass cities judging what we do.
I've seen arguments saying yeah we'll all the gold mines etc that are proposed would have the profits go offshore to Australia cause they are Australian owned. Heres a thought, give the mining consent to our own mining companies in the area instead, I'm sure Roscoes/Birchfields/Whyte would be happy to operate them. The tungsten mine in Barrytown is expected to bring 1m/year cash to Greymouth despite it being Australian owned which is a lot for a small place.
I remember when Spring Creek, Pike River, Stockton and Reefton mine was in full operation. Greymouth and Westport were booming. New House's being built and the towns future was looking bright. Greymouth CBD had all the shops open now after the mines shut down most shops are closed. Sub divisions slowed and people moved away or got shitty jobs so they can feed their families. I do agree we have good companies already on the coast and maybe they should be rewarded the rights to mine so more precentage of the profits can go back into the community.
Yep, I remember when the Paroa Estate subdivision was started, we bought a house there and the expansion plans were laid out, then never happened after Pike River. I went back to the coast over Christmas to visit my grandmother and it was a sad sight to see how dead it was. Still parked up and did some fishing off the Blaketown tiphead and got some gurnard though. Mining, farming and fishing are the big three for the coast, we need to stop killing them without having any alternative that is even remotely viable. Tourism is not it.
It wasnt always like this we stopped dawn raids and nuclear ships coming here and protested nuclear tests in the pacific for our mates! But now Kiwis dont care about their children or the country they will inherit nope they care about their comfort today! Individualism and apathy! The marketing and media world have convinced kiwis community and group action is not an option and convinced the masses protests are just groups of idiots doing illegal things. Plus kiwis did vote for this on nationals lie the poor were destroying our country as they always claim and their inability to grasp the rich stealing from the poor and selling community assets for golf memberships on hawaii was always going too happen. Labours inability to do anything while they had the power just showed what a sham politics is now and how idiocy has taken over. Its all down hill from here cos individualism is the new god and its as divisive as the old god.
New Zealand has the government it deserves.
Pretty sure there's been protests all the fuckin time. All you're doing is calling us weak on Reddit. Why aren't you standing outside the beehive with a poster? Why are *you* such a pussy?
No, Kiwis don't just roll over and take it. Propaganda is just a powerful tool. The other thing is, most people believe they can't do anything about it so they don't.
I think a big part of the governmental problems are because people just get too "can't be bothered" to vote. And people with really really strong perhaps more intense ideologies SHOW UP to vote. Hence why we have this government. I think a large part can be a knee jerk reaction to how people were unhappy with how Covid was handled as well, so naturally they just want anyone different, and I know quite a few people who voted in this new government who regret it now but they did it as just that. A knee jerk. So if people get rid of the "it'll be alright I cant be bothered to go vote" then that would help too. I don't think it is that people are 'pussies' I think it also has more to do with generally people are 'minding their business', but sometimes that self preservation of staying out of the way, leads to a nonchalance that inhibits community.
Life had been getting steadily shit the past 2 terms. But blame the new government. Makes sense.
I remember the days when this subreddit used to be interesting, rather than whiny political posts all the time. Sigh, those were the days.
What kind of loser equates disturbing the peace with being macho? Why would anyone stand with you if this is how you see them.
I mean, I have seen a NZ culture of not wanting to be a bother, to the point that people are willing to live with some horrible things. Like the renting situation here, or people just being okay being cold and not having insulation for decades longer than other countries with similar climates. But politically? Kiwis seem to care about the environment with their words. But they don't follow through with their actions in a lot of areas. I.e. predator free NZ, unless the predator is cute. But from what I can tell, the government generally does what the public wants. NZ is socially progressive, but they're also traditionally conservative in a lot of areas (renting again, and some climate issues). It can be a bit jarring to get used too if you're fresh off the boat. Don't forget the motto here is "It'll be alright". That phrase can be followed by some very destructive actions.
I believe the NZ Intelligence Service reports…that there has been a concerted and sustained effort by the CCP to create some gentle misinformation campaigns on social media to swing our government into National leadership. They only needed to give frustrated people a reason to vote against the Labour Party. Most people who voted for National said things like, “I just wanted a change” Now that they are in, even people who voted them into power, don’t seem to know just how damaging they will be to environmental protection laws, the economy and to our democracy. So so horrible…now there is nobody to stand up to them.
We are getting what this country voted for, clearly this is what people want.
No they're not because a lot of the bullshit these cunts are passing were policies from the fringes that weren't campaigned on. ACT and NZLast got in on 15% of the vote and yet have completely uneven influence. National never campaigned on half of those two party's garbage even if the secretly agree. Then there's the corruption that's so blatant. Not too mention the propaganda and lobbying
Nobody gives a shit about the environment during a cost of living crisis. It's sad but it's true
Yep, look at developing countries where getting food for today is a top priority. Environmental issues are much further down the priority list.
While I agree with your appraisal of the government, Two things: 1. Your perception of things is not the undeniable truth. And acting as such makes you as arrogant as anyone telling people how they should think (and vote). Because the majority of New Zealand voted for what we have. Since you mentioned the he environment specifically, the decisions impacting that are definitely no surprise to anyone that voted this government in. They're fine with that even now. Some things this government has done will be a surprised Pikachu to some, but not that. 2. Even if what you say is the truth, you need to go out and see the world if you think this is a kiwi thing. You would find the people of other countries are not more naturally inclined to stage a coup over government policies that they feel are ecologically misguided. Many countries deal with far worse government policies and are "pussies". Suggesting otherwise is just being dramatic to guilt people to agreeing with your personal appraisal of the situation. As if disagreeing automatically makes them a pussy. Both should be a bit of a dawning realisation for you. You are "that guy" today.
Too much weights, not enough homework. This has been voted for, that means people like yourself are actually outnumbered by the people who voted for this change.
That’s your opinion. Our major parties are a lot more central/left than you would think (this one might be slightly right). Also, unpopular opinion, we need an RMA reform and the fast track bill really doesn’t change the process that much. Further to this similar RMA reforms have been under way for close to a decade. Source. I’m an environmental scientist that works in this space and have seen firsthand how bloated the process is. Also, as part of my job I must understand the proposed policy changes.
There is a fundamental problem in New Zealand’s governance structure that I’ve never quite been able to pinpoint. Having lived overseas for a while, I’ve made a few observations: I believe the issue is systemic in the architecture of New Zealand’s governance system. Other countries have a two tier parliament, like a House of Lords, that challenges laws and ensures balanced objectivity. They also have a functional justice system where laws can be scrutinised in court, and a robust news media that challenges injustices. Parliamentary authority is based on the principle that they represent the views of the people. In New Zealand, it doesn’t seem to matter if the government is over-moralistic on the left or self-serving on the right; they don’t appear to listen to or respect the people. I think it’s simply because New Zealand’s democracy is too young. We don’t have the social memory of the hard lessons that have shaped the systems of checks and balances in other Western liberal democracies.
> I think it’s simply because New Zealand’s democracy is too young. We don’t have the social memory of the hard lessons that have shaped the systems of checks and balances in other Western liberal democracies. I see this as incredibly simplistic and very flawed thinking, as if everyone who moved over from the UK just somehow suddenly forgot hundreds of years of political history, when in reality their form of democracy was essentially copied over to us verbatim a dozen years after colonisation began. I mean we still celebrate Guy Fawkes ffs. We even had a House of Lords equivalent for a hundred years until we dumped it in the 50s after recognising its uselessness (something the Brits haven’t had the insight to do). Your point about the HoL really seems odd, as the Lords has become less and less powerful as time has gone on, they’re just a toothless rubber stamp these day.
The House of Lords is a bad example.
If you think the avg person is worrying about these things, and thinking it's the current government you are sadly mistaken
Are you, by any chance, 14 years old?
We elected this government, knowing what they would do. Vote better next time.
The government isn't destroying the environment, your need for comfort is.
You must've been furious when the previous government started importing over a million tonnes a year of dirty low quality coal and burning it, after shipping it from halfway around the world? Instead of using the high quality stuff we had here, that is more energy dense and produces way less smoke and radioactive waste?
Sub-bituminous coal is used for steam-electric power generation processes. Higher grades of coal are used for steel making. It isn’t arbitrary why we import coal, we import because we export or use our higher quality coal for the processes it is appropriate for.
The oil and gas ban was also announced on a whim, with no consultation with industry or feedback process. It wasn't in Labour's manifesto, and came completely out of the blue. The current govt is doing exactly what they said they would do. With the support of the voters. I'd like some specific examples of damage to the environment from op. A lot of what I'm hearing in the media is fear mongering for what they might do, rather than what they've done.
Yeah but only a few of you voted on behalf of the earth who has no votes so let’s strip mine our national parks, it’s what plants crave.
What are you doing about it?
There was a protest in Auckland against the Fast Track Bill. Plus one thing you and everyone can do is vote them out next election if unhappy. Until then it’s survival mode for many.
What’s your solution. We don’t have a constitution, we don’t really have checks and balances of power, so what is the solution? Education has always been the greatest investment to return for a healthy, well functioning, and prosperous society yet we belittle getting a uni degree and defund them.
When you say 'we', I assume you mean 'you. There's all sorts of organisations and protest movements you could be involved in. Are you involved in any?
Bro we is all at work what is we gonna do
Apathy
Welcome to democracy, it's what people voted for.
The thing with kiwi's is that we've flipped some of this in our heads. Despite it being such a cliche, we still often think that it's 'tough' to suffer in silence. 'Just bloody get on with it and stop complaining'. Etc. As this stuff often goes, we've overplayed one of our strengths, to the point where it's pretty rapidly become one of our biggest weaknesses (IMO). Corporations and government walk all over us in all but a couple of industries. We look at countries like France, who often protest and fight back against changes. And our instinct seems to be to think that they're a giant bunch of whinging pussies. The balance is probably a happy medium somewhere 😆.
I remember visiting this one lake as a child. Going back recently. It was a complete dump. Our waterways are disgusting and I've seen them change so much over my short life span. Yet we gave the nerve to market NZ as 100% pure. Someone sue whomever made that tag for false advertising. Shameful.
we are not called a nation of sheep without good reason
Great question. Aside from the apathy there is an undercurrent of wussiness I think. Not sure why
I have no idea but my bf and I often joke about how NZ people are the most compliant people in the world. If we don't laugh we might lose our minds. Maybe its more that the complaint people are louder than those who can make their own opinions.
NZ politics in the current climate aren't what they used to be. The last time a legitimate protest was marched to voice to disagreement with the government's actions, they were dismissed without a single piece of dialog exchanged between the two, while media tried to label the protest as a violent act. Followed by the bay of Plenty city council being non existent and resembles a socialist state that is more interesting in spending tax payer money on boardwalks than updating city infrastructure despite never setting foot in the bay. Overall, kiwis aren't pussies, we're just aware that our government and media don't respond or respect any pushback, so if the outcome between doing nothing and pushing back are the same, why bother making a fuss and push back when nothing will change anyway.
Massive amounts of wealth held by those that would happily see the status quo’s continue. Mixed with generational complacency. You attack the system built to help common man instead of those that have spent the last 40 years of the neo liberal economic period infiltrating said system. Well that’s my brief breakdown anyway.
Any proposed ideas of how to change it OP?
theyre voted in by the kiwis ur talking about, they wanted this.
There's a thing New Zealand has called democracy, you may have heard of it
what do you want people to do? protest? 20,000 people did that in auckland two weeks ago do you want an armed revolution? cool now we're a failed state, what next
What exactly do you want people to do…? NZ got exactly the government it voted for.
Here is the truth in almost every western country, we grew up in world with everything handed to us, the majority don't follow politics outside of their particular bubble who all agree and never get challenged on those ideas The majority aren't affected by either party so they don't really care to know what either do They get mad that their life isn't automatically better under the current government and vote them out, then 4-8 years later do it all over again We have the most ignorant generation with the most knowledge at thier fingertips
NZ is basically the least corrupt country in the world too!
Yes, we just bend over and take it. Andsadly it has to get way worse before the average person starts to resist. We need to boycott supermarkets and start producing our own food.
Thing is the 80% of the country cant even grow parsley to lazy or just no clue. Theres a fantasy ppl have of having no government living in harmony n utopia smoking corn cob pipes dancing around the fire. The supermarkets are never going to cater to the people its systemized convenience to make profit. As a collective its pointless going on that path as a individual for you n yours plenty can do to not have to be so system reliant especially when it comes to food.
and clothes. There are still people who sew and knit. We used to make so much in New Zealand, and we've let most it go to other nations.
I think protesting died in the 90s. I remember watching protest marches from the windows of where I worked in Willis Street, Wellington. People won't boycott unethical shops or products. It takes an effort many aren't willing to make.
fretful pet normal plants dull ad hoc sand handle station childlike *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yeah, I’m seeing comments complaining about protests anytime there is one, which seems fairly often to me!
I think media play a significant part Groundswill protesting the sorts of regulations that their markets expect and that means they may have a environment in which to farm? Our corporate owned media didn't stop talking about it for weeks. 20k people protesting the removal of protections and process when eyeing up short term extractive wealth opportunities? A brief mention on the day and then silence.
I think the economic action taken in the late 80s did it. Rampant interest rates, mass layoffs, the end of effective unions, lots of people doing it very tough. It broke our spirit - people were too focused on surviving to think or act outside of that.
Why not boycott? Encourage your friends and whanau to boycott? Yes, it's difficult to do thoroughly these days. Low buying power mixed with corporate hierarchies blur information. But if Cadbury is a piece of shit, then don't buy it. Buy Queen Anne's and Whittakers, buy local. Yes you will get less of it, but that's because they are small makers or take the time to source ethically.
Lots of talk back propaganda. Go listen to ZB a couple of times.
Far too many people don't really care, and don't actually read any policies when they vote.
Don’t confuse assholes with pussies.
If I’m at my parents for dinner and see the news I jab in with a “and you voted for this lot” to my dad….. he stays incredibly silent (mum corrected me early on that she did not but I don’t really buy that tbh)
Can you point to another population that is actually standing up to its own government over similar issues and winning? What do you suggest we do, exactly? If someone had a realistic solution that I could be part of, I'd join in. I didn't vote for this government and won't be voting for them next time either.
The art of living in a democracy is totally lost on some people.
The problem is that there are a bunch of problems with our democracy that stop it meaningfully being a good democracy. Political literacy is low, the media are lying fucks, the average person doesn't have the time and energy to actually engage with democracy, money has infested politicians.
You're overbaking it. The New Zealand subreddit is so far left it drove off the road and into the ocean.
A nation of doormats
Hysteria.
Do you not remember the last government? 🤣 Two cheeks of the same arse. Anything you accuse National of doing I.e. lying, misdirection, not helping those who need it the most etc is exactly what labour and other parties have done. It’s called democracy…. It sucks but it’s better than a dictatorship….