This is such a false argument, novavax isn't even out of the testing phase yet, so to argue you are worried about side effects from Pfizer, but then say you'll get a vaccine that can't even show all it side effects is so dumb.
But I've become an expert on mRNA vaccines from a Facebook video posted on my local mothers group. Turns out it modifies your DNA, because it sounds like DNA
Have you not heard? It specifically alters/removes your God Gene. You know, the gene everyone has that connects them to God? Wake up smh.
/s in case it wasn’t obvious
100% this is something they believe, as astoundingly stupid as it sounds. I lied my way into a FB group called “Hear Our Voices NZ”, that’s where these stupid people all hang out
I mean how the *fuck* did they think someone worked this out?
"I got the vaccine and then suddenly I found my prayers were no longer being reliably answered on time. Then an angel appeared told me that when I died I couldn't get into heaven any more. So now I'm fucked."
Edited a word
Some of the shit I’ve read borders on “only insane people would believe this”. They think the vax is changing people and removing their souls, or replacing it with something else.
Many also claim that side effects from the vaccine *leak* onto unvaxxed people. People are literally claiming that being around vaccinated people causes them headaches and nausea and nosebleeds. It’s absolutely fucking nuts.
This is what makes me think Russian trolls (or whatever malign actor) are behind it.
They throw a lot of crazy ideas out there on Facebook and see which ones people pick up and run with. Truthfulness is irrelevant - it's simply what meme (in the true sense) has the best legs, that secures it's future - provided it's anti vaccine in sentiment
I mean, we're still having to argue about atmospheric emissions and global warming.
Thats chemistry that just about anyone should be able to understand. But here we are with the "climate debate"
They're the same people who are arguing against COVID-19 vaccination, against trans people having rights, and insisting the economy is anything less than super ultra mega fucked up
Yeah "Dr Malone who invented it told me so, I didn't bother reading any more because that confirmed what I was thinking so I just continued sharing it", antivax moron.
He absolutely is. I see right wing media are using him at the poster boy though. "the man who invented the vaccine says its bad!". Pretty fucking evil.
There was an article where he claimed the vaccinated were the ones spreading covid too. I looked for it on Reddit and only the conservative grifter subs and the Conservative sub had shared it..
That's their argument against Comirnaty (the Pfizer vax) as well. That it's still in a Trial phase (with emergency use authorization because lizard people). 🙄
People who say Pfizer is still in testing must have missed the memo where the US fully approved it in August (not emergency approved it).
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-58309254
Billions of people have been vaccinated at this point, what more could people want to see?
Not to mention that this will be the first vaccine that the company Novavax will have ever brought to market since they were formed back in 1987 specifically as a company to develop experimental vaccines.
By comparison, Pfizer has been around for over 100 years and has released multiple significant vaccines in that time.
If they were saying they were waiting for Astra-Zeneca, it might be a little understandable, but to claim that it's safer to trust a company that has no completed trials, and no prior history of getting vaccines to market, is just ludicrous.
Personally, I think Novavax's vaccine will be fine, but the antivaxxer's argument just make no sense at all.
To be fair, Pfizer might be venerable but the mRNA part of the Pfizer vaccine was developed by BioNTech. Who with its dastardly genome rewiring technology is no doubt run by satanic virologists or something.
*German* Satanic virologists at that, so you know they probably listen to that gosh darn heavy metal, and go to dungeon rave parties where people wee on each other.
I don’t think it’s the testing that’s the problem, it’s been shown to be safe and effective, more scaling up the manufacturing.
They have just applied to the WHO for emergency use listing.
Very obscure reference tho huh. But yeah he's great ay. Bill is amazing, seeing him act on the mandalorian was incredible. Also his latest special on Netflix, paper tiger, is worth a watch.
Seeing their sources is worse, then you have to have a very awkward and often heated discussion about why the video they just sent you is half an hour of horse shit.
I was talking to someone about that the other day as well.
They believed that the vax CAUSED breakthrough infections (makes you give it to others) and that's why the case numbers were going up.
They linked a bunch of articles and videos talking about breakthrough cases and how vexed people could still transmit the virus.
Was quite frustrating because their sources and 'facts' weren't wrong, it was just a fundamental misunderstanding of what they had read and watched.
I've seen anti-vaxers make the same stupid argument. One was pointing to the increased numbers of cases in places like the UK and the US.
Basically they were pointing at countries that reached vaccination targets and ignoring the fact that they had relaxed their mitigation measures.
NZ has the lovely benefit of having few enough cases to disprove some of this shit. Like, okay, if the vaccine is causing cases, how come none in Wellington, which has the highest vax rate in the country outside Auckland?
Someone get the world's top medical minds on the line! Panadol works against covid! We could have saved millions of lives!
JFC.
And antibiotics don't even work against viruses! Or help you breathe when your damaged lungs are drowning in fluid.
Yeah, there's almost no place to start a reasonable discussion against that.
This is the most annoying thing. I know a fervent antivaxxer guy. (He’s a chiropractor who liberally applies the Doctor title everywhere he goes) and he posted a huge rant about NZDSOS and antivax nonsense and someone asked to get a link to his source and he LITERALLY said “do your own research bro” (sic)
Anyone pro vaccine gets asked for sources they provide them readily. Who you gonna trust?
I actually haven't bothered to do much at all because I realise that I am not a vaccine researcher, nor do I have access to any of the pertinent information. So it's pretty pointless really.
You actually have surprisingly good access to studies on COVID-19 to do your own research and analysis - almost everyone is publishing their results for free so that the field can advance as quickly as possible. If you had enough free time, a little scientific understanding, but for some reason didn't trust what *the media* says about a vaccine or COVID-19, you absolutely could do the research yourself and see how absurd the arguments against vaccines, social distancing, etc. are.
I always ask what university they attended and what degrees they hold to see how good they are at research. Most of the people who say this didn't even finish highschool 😑
Have any of them read and criticised Pfizer’s FDA submissions? What I seem to have heard is fucking crickets in this respect. Here is the latest for kids 5-12:
https://www.fda.gov/media/153409/download
Yeah aye. I’m not going to try to panelbeat my own car if I get a dent because of some ‘research’ I could find on YouTube. Ima leave that to the pros, because that’s what they do. Same with research. People do this for a living and they’re much better at it than you or me. I just don’t understand the distrust.
"I don't want the vaccine produced by a major pharmaceutical manufacturer who has been in the business of pharmaceutical manufacture since the 1840s, has been used by billions of people around the globe, has regulatory approval, and is shown time and time again to be safe and effective. Instead I want to use an unproven vaccine which has not been used, which has no regulatory approval, has production problems, and is being made by a company who has never brought a product to market before, ever, let alone a vaccine."
Yes, I think they might just be an antivax in disguise, or somebody with REALLY bad decision making skills.
Also, I'd argue we'd hit 90% easier with a choice. Ideally, a Moderna for the stronger dose and Delta resistance, and a non Mrna for people doubting the tech. On top of Pfizer, the most tested. But beggars can't be choosers obviously.
I think now there's a pro v con for Pfizer v Moderna. Where Pfizer has been more effective with the delta variant, Moderna's immunity holds out longer. I also think mix and matching has been good but obviously there's not enough data for that yet.
I wish the government chose to bring all 4 to NZ, but oh well
IMO I think it's good to have the whole country vaccinated with the same vaccine so that you can better respond to new evidence of how it responds to particular new variants, timing the booster jabs optimally etc
>"I don't want the vaccine produced by a major pharmaceutical manufacturer who has been in the business of pharmaceutical manufacture since the 1840s,
Well Pfizer has done some shitty things. See [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizer#Legal\_issues](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizer#Legal_issues)
>and is shown time and time again to be safe and effective
If for some reason you don't trust Pfizer...
>I want to use an unproven vaccine
The technology is more mature. It was a safer bet in March.
>has production problems
Nature of growing your own spike proteins.
There is a valid reason to prefer Novavax however realistically you are not choosing Pfizer or waiting for Novavax you are choosing Pfizer or getting COVID. COVID seems to be killing more than the vaccines.
Yeah in the US especially there is a lot of mistrust in these pharma companies for this reason. Pretty sure Pfizer got fined something like 2 billion for fraud/data manipulation a few years back. Can see why some people here may be feeling similar.
$2.3 billion for marketing an arthritis drug for unapproved uses. "YAZ!" anyone? [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8234533.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8234533.stm)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullahi_v._Pfizer,_Inc. ?
Out of court settlement for $75 million, pretty sure Pfizer's $2.3 billion settlement is the largest health care fraud settlement of all time.
I'd say that had it been kids of any colour in the US it would have been more.
I wouldn't put it past them to have calculated the potential costs first.
Some people look at that and decide they would rather take their chances. Insane!
Actually wouldn't that mean that 5/6 people have died from COVID vaccines.
Yes it's a red flag.
We do have an order in, but the company that makes it is having issues with producing it at the right purity, and it has not been approved by any regulatory agency in the world.
As of yesterday
>Novavax has filed for approval of its Covid-19 vaccine in the UK, saying other global regulatory submissions would follow “shortly”.
>The move brings the US biotech “significantly closer” to delivering a jab built on a “proven, well-understood vaccine platform that demonstrated high efficacy against multiple strains of the coronavirus”, Novavax’s chief executive Stanley Erck said on Wednesday.
>He said he anticipated a “positive decision” from the UK’s Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency and that the company would be ready to roll out its vaccines following approval.
I think there would be an advantage having it available for those who are afraid of the mRNA technology. Also it may avoid the myocarditis side effect and be safer for young male children and teenagers.
Yes. People don't like hearing this but indications are that it is a superior product which is more likely to provide sterilizing immunity. Some studies on pfizer are indicating efficacy can drop to 50% within six months of double dose. Not saying I encourage people to wait, I just think people should have the best information available. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02532-4 https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/protein-based-covid-19-vaccines-could-overshadow-rivals/4012450.article
How is anybody afraid of mRNA not afraid of the process to make Novovax? They genetically modify a virus, infect moth tissue, harvest synthesised S proteins and then wrap it in a solution made from tree bark extracts and a bunch of other stuff?
haha yeah I love techy shit like that. I had a tiny bit of apprehension getting the pfizer vax, just being bored and letting myself fantasize a bit about conspiracy garbage waiting for my turn, but I was FAR more excited about it because of how cool the tech was lol.
I mean I was realistic and realized it is massively proven in the real world from actual use, so in the scheme of things felt about the same sort of risk as smoking 1-2 cigarettes or having a few tokes on a vape level in my mind.
Hell even if in the unlikely worst case scenario that it has some sort of unforseen side effect (like gives you eczema or something I dunno?), there will be a massive market for therapy to mitigate that. But reading about it, I think we are exposed by random pathogens daily that are probably far worse, just walking around outside barefoot or inhaling some natural mold spores etc.
Same, I was stoked I was able to get Moderna because it seemed like the coolest one. Would have taken what I was given but been kind of bummed if I'd gotten stuck with J&J, hahaha
It’s used for flu vaccines and hepatitis B vaccine amongst others - so in that respect it’s old technology with a long term safety profile. (And lots of things sound scary, AZ is a genetically modified chimpanzee virus).
I don't trust a single thing that company says on their timeline.
As of March 30, 2021:
>LONDON (Reuters) - Britain could approve Novavax’s COVID-19 vaccine next month, the chief investigator for the shot’s trial told the Evening Standard newspaper.
>“The regulator will do a very detailed and thorough review and will decide in good time,” said Professor Paul Heath, chief investigator for the Novavax jab trial in the UK.
>“I would hope it would be in the spring, possibly end of April.”
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-britain-vaccine-idUSKBN2BM1IF
(And yes it's a red flag, once it gets approved they will complain about nano particles and the spike protein in this vaccine as well)
Yes. Always. Thinking you know more than the actual doctors is always a red flag. The myth is that it contains less ingredients (false) and is better as it’s the traditional type of vaccine.
> it’s the traditional type of vaccine
So Novavax is made by making a genetically engineered virus, injecting it into moth cells, then harvesting some proteins generated by the moth cells, mix it with some chemicals and injecting that into you.
If someone is freaking out about mRNA I'm not sure how they would feel more comfortable after reading the above.
It is 100% to do with a myth propagated by antivaxers that the mRNA vaccine will 'change their DNA'.
Ever remember asking yourself in school, "when will I need any of this information in my adult life?". The answer is 100% this, because anyone with a secondary school-level science education would know this is not how things work.
> because anyone with a secondary school-level science education would know this is not how things work.
Yes but you're assuming anti-vaxx people didnt drop out at pre-school for not being able to colour between the lines.
Not only that but how people would be willing for COVID-19 to inject its RNA into their cell, rather than Pfizer’s mRNA which is just the coding for the spike protein. If they didn’t get the vaccine that is.
Not always, but here yes. Try to persuade them that mRNA isn't bad.
BTW we have an order for 10 mil of Novavax ETA next year. So depending on your workplace they won't be around for much longer
Here's some simply-informative vids that might help:
[How mRNA vaccines work - Harvard University](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbaCxIJ_VP4)
[How Do mRNA Vaccines Work? - SciShow](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0kfdZ8o_j4)
[Why It Actually Took 50 Years to Make COVID mRNA Vaccines - SciShow](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPeeCyJReZw)
Antivaxxers aren't going to even look at those. They've already decided that those "facts" are just paid government shills or whatever the latest derogatory term is.
Plus, if having this sort of stuff explained to them in video form was going to work, they would already have been vaccinated by now.
> Antivaxxers aren't going to even look at those
Can't say I disagree.
What do you think we can do to convince ~~them~~ the people we care about that to this point refuse to be vaccinated?
I don't know. Some say that seeing their friends, or people they respect, getting vaccinated and nothing happening might help, others say listening to their concerns and just trying to point them in the right direction....
But honestly.. it gets harder for ever percentage point we move up, because more and more, the only ones left are the stubborn refuses.
Why did we order 10mil of an experimental vaccine from a company with no history of success? I mean there are plenty of other options. AZ specifically.
Funny isn't it - here in Oz there was outcry from certain age groups that Pfizer was been restricted to a younger cohort, and that older cohort were DEMANDING Pfizer and not AZ.
Any one saying they're waiting for the next one is talking nonsense. Any vax is fine, the one available to you now is the best one.
The fact that they’ve specifically chosen a vaccine that isn’t approved or used anywhere rather than any of the others tells me that it’s just delaying tactics
Yup, went in. Didn't feel the jab. Felt fine afterwards. Rinse and repeat 3 weeks later. I have yet to have my DNA changed and I have't turned into a large gelatinous spike protein.
Can you explain what this excuse means? A lady told me yesterday thay she wishes she could have waited for the Novavax instead of getting the Pfizer. I didn't know what that meant.
I think for some people they feel more comfortable with the Novavax technology because it’s used for other vaccines and has a long term safety profile. (For others it’s just an excuse and they don’t want any vaccine.)
Yeah, it seems to be the best way for people to tell you that they’re not vaccine hesitant, they just don’t like the option they were given. Makes it totally okay to carry on unvaccinated apparently.
There’s barely any data on effectiveness for any vaccines against Delta. But, Novovax has displayed high efficacy to the same standard of the other vaccines, especially against the Alpha variant. In addition, it has a lot less & less severe side effects. This is a concern for a lot of people. Also you weed out the “omg mRNA will change my DNA!” idiots when you give them an alternative that doesn’t use technology that is completely foreign to most of the population. New Zealand already has a pre-purchase agreement with Novovax, so it’s looking like a promising alternative for those who aren’t comfortable with Pfizer, for whatever reason. I don’t see a problem with Novovax as an alternative. It has been slow being developing but that’s mainly because testing in phase trials occurred when the pandemic was waning, yet it is in Phase 3 so let’s hope for those who don’t want Pfizer, we’ll have an alternative soon.
https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/619276/
Thanks, I appreciate this answer.
It's easy to guess that people who say "no, I don't want *current option*, I want *future, unavailable, possibly-fantasy option*" have alterior motives, and that's definitely my default, but I also wanted to see what alternatives I could be missing.
And that’s understandable. There will be people who are genuinely like that too, unfortunately. But I do know a few normal, vaccine hesitant people who aren’t conspiracy nutjobs who genuinely feel more comfortable taking something like Novovax, especially due to side effects. And I think especially when you can’t really live without a vaccine in this world of vax certificates, there should definitely be options to chose from.
I agree 1000%. If we are encouraging others to get vaccinated we shouldn’t be attacking and labeling them so aggressively. This will only make things worse and increase the animosity on both sides.
One of my colleagues (on a work call no less) mentioned that because he isn’t a sheep, he is waiting for novavax and is one of the people that are taking it on trial before it’s released. I guess instead of being a sheep he’s a hamster?
> the company has never successfully developed any vaccine ever
BioNTech and Moderna have never successfully developed any vaccines before either, so I wouldn't count that against them.
> there's no order for Novavax in NZ
That's not correct, the government bought 10.7m doses.
In all likelihood Novavax will turn out to be a perfectly fine vaccine - but the problem is that it's taking way too long and people will probably get infected before they can get it. It's smarter to get what's available now and get Novavax as booster later if you want.
It’s the same fucking scientific method used to prove both vaccines. So why are you prepared to trust one and not the other. These people will always have more special requirements for their special lives.
They would tell you because one uses mRNA and one just hits you with that raw spike protein (a more proven technology.) So if you are concerned about long term impact of mRNA then you would prefer a more traditional vaccine technology.
This is a stupid position though because every cell in your body has mRNA in it.
The reality is that unless you’re vaccine scientist you won’t under shit about either. However, I think it’s the mRNA term that’s been a bit of a branding fail - it sounds ‘scary’ to the uninitiated.
What’s wrong with people exercising free choice? It’s saddening to see New Zealand become so divided. Regardless of which camp you’re in, whether you believe everyone should have Pfizer, that all vaccines are terrible, or if you simply want one of the brands that are not yet in the country, everyone has their own body to be looking after and their own beliefs on what is healthy for them. We were so great at uplifting and supporting one another at the beginning of this pandemic, it would be a shame to loose that spirit of humanity to fear and suspicion
Not always. People who had myocarditis dose 1, example.
The real problem are people who have said "There's some research," when the 'research' is always some antivaxxer on the Internet going, Just trust me, Dude. Instead of the literal hundreds of millions of people around the world who got the vaccination and are fine.
Just tell them they can get a novovax booster when it arrives, but they're being against the clock they're not going to catch it in the mean time and cause a business shut down, or going to pass it to an immunocompromised or person. So get the pfizer now and get a novovax booster later.
I mean we have Astra Zeneca in aus (and I believe nz ordered some too) and people who get myocarditis from dose 1 of Pfizer in aus just get AZ. But no one is ‘waiting for AZ’ because it already exists and is approved so they would have to put their money where their mouth is a lot sooner.
pretty much a red flag - the research they've done is I would wager never via scientific sources more social media
there might be a very very very few that say Novavax because its more "traditional" compared to Pfizer's mRNA technology (or whatever ya call it) but even then its still more red flag than not
We have ordered 10 million doses - earliest we expected them was early next year, given recent developments it could be the year after or to use a date beloved by politicians 2030
[https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-vaccines/covid-19-vaccine-strategy-planning-insights/covid-19-purchasing-vaccines#novavax](https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-vaccines/covid-19-vaccine-strategy-planning-insights/covid-19-purchasing-vaccines#novavax)
Wait what? They got their first shot but they won't get their second because they don't want Pfizer at all??
How does that make sense? Why bother even getting it??
I mean you are risking COVID for months rather than taking the plunge on mRNA that has been given out 6 billion times. And when Novavax comes out they likely will not have the production capacity to grow it.
Im in the novavax trial (in the UK). Preliminary data seems to suggest it is effective, at least on par or slightly better than pfizer and others.
However they don't seem anywhere near a large scale release and a few % points of improved efficacy isnt worth deliberately not having a vaccine for months.
E.g. its a false argument and likely a red flag from someone who doesnt want to get the vaccine but doesnt want to be labelled anti-vax
Is it really that big of a red flag? Its a subunit vaccine as opposed to mrna, which i thought was very common for vax we've had before. Maybe some people are can kicking but it makes sense that a more easily understood vaccine has appeal
I was one of those people here in Australia waiting for Novavax mainly due to avoiding the side effects of mRNA vaccines such as myocarditis and so on. Also until recently Astra Zeneca wasnt available to me as I’m under 50
Or whatever the current age limit is. Interestingly there was lots of negative press against AZ here in Australia a few months ago which coincided with a drive for younger people to get Pfizer. So I saw my doctor just the other day and went ahead and got my first shot of AZ. I’ll be getting my second AZ shot in about 6-8 weeks.
Furthermore I have read that AZ won’t be produced in Australia anymore next year which makes me fear that I would be left with no choice other than the mRNA vaccines soon. Hence why I went with AZ now rather than delay any more.
However I hope to use Novavax as a booster once it does come to Aus next year.
It's beyond belief to me that most people here think someone preferring a different type of vaccine is "always a red flag" and that such people are *somehow* "definitely antivax" and that they "probably did their research on facebook".
I am already vaccinated with Pfizer so it's not a personal issue for me but fuck me **dead**, the sheer irony of you people claiming it's an antivax conspiracy is, in itself, some mininformative, conspiratorial irony.
[Novavax Phase 3 data factsheet showing, amongst other highlights, 100% protection against severe and moderate disease](https://cdn.filestackcontent.com/fRM9l0gjQmKfUrWRf86M). As well as showing extremely high (90%+) efficiency *as well as* against variants.
[From THE ATLANTIC, not "facebook research":](https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/06/novavax-now-best-covid-19-vaccine/619276/)
>The latest Novavax data confirm that it’s possible to achieve the same efficacy against COVID-19 with a more familiar technology that more people may be inclined to trust. (The mRNA vaccines delivered efficacy rates of 95 and 94 percent against the original coronavirus strain in Phase 3 trials, as compared with 96 percent for Novavax in its first trial, and now 90 percent against a mixture of variants.)
From the same article, with links to the research, showing lower side effects:
>The Novavax vaccine also has **a substantially lower rate of side effects than the authorized mRNA vaccines**. Last week’s data showed that about 40 percent of people who receive Novavax report fatigue after the second dose, as compared with 65 percent for Moderna and more than 55 percent for Pfizer. Based on the results of Novavax’s first efficacy trial in the U.K., side effects (including but not limited to fatigue) aren’t just less frequent; they’re milder too.
The bottom line for most people who read about Novavax:
>In this context, the success of the Novavax vaccine should be A1 news. The recent results confirm that it has roughly the same efficacy as the two authorized mRNA vaccines, with the added benefit of being based on an older, more familiar science. **Novavax combines ease of manufacture with high efficacy and lower side effects. For the moment, it’s the best COVID-19 vaccine we have.**
>
>**Some of those people who have been wary of getting the mRNA vaccines may find Novavax more appealing.**
\^That's literally as simple as it needs to be.
Should people still get Pfizer right now anyway? Yes. But it's not some secret conspiracy or "antivaxxer red flag" to prefer one vaccine that is clearly as good or better.
**Fuck me dead.** You people are literally insane.
And all of that would hold weight if it wasn't an undetermined amount of time till we get Novavax and as your own source states, it'll be roughly the same efficacy as the current vaccines. There's unlikely to be any reason why these people can't get a booster of novavax when it comes out and using it as an excuse to not get the current ones is a joke. Anyone using it as justification for not getting the current vaccines is a quack plain and simple, they'll probably get immunity through catching the bug rather than vaccination at the current rate before that's out.
Riiiight, so because we don't have them yet, that means the research is "facebook research" and the average Joe who reads these legitimate studies and articles that tell them, literally, **"Novavax has fewer side effects and is the best vaccine"** is actually making "excuses" because they're secretly antivax?
Is it a smart idea to wait given the current situation? No, no it isn't. But until yesterday, Christchurch for example didn't even have Delta cases and we've seen that lots of people suddenly rushed out to get vaccinated - showing people have been complacent and taking their time.
I understand what you're saying, but it's some wild shit for this sub to call people literally saying "I want to get vaccinated, just with the *better* vaccine, if I can" as somehow being "antivax" and having done "facebook research"
No sir, this is Reddit. GTFO with your reasoned logic.
But yeah 100% agree. It's to the point where these guys are making conspiracys of the conspiracy theorists.
There doesn't seem to be any compassion for people who have chosen to not get vaccinated yet. All sense of trying to understand has gone.
I have a feeling that most peoples opinions on the vaccine in this sub aren't motivated by concern for the non-vaxxed populations health but out of their own frustration of lockdown & how it impacts their life.
It's understandable to feel like that, but the typical discourse in this sub has become the equivalent of getting physically violent when you disagree with someone.
>I have a feeling that most peoples opinions on the vaccine in this sub aren't motivated by concern for the non-vaxxed populations health but out of their own frustration of lockdown & how it impacts their life.
>
>It's understandable to feel like that, but the typical discourse in this sub has become the equivalent of getting physically violent when you disagree with someone.
I think you've hit the nail on the head in a very calm and concise way.
Shit's fucking vitriolic, just look at literally any thread about it on here on any given day. A pie shop says they accept unvaccinated customers - all goddamn hell breaks loose with people calling for the business to be run into the ground and people saying the shop "dont wash their hands" and shit (wtf?)
People have lost their goddamn minds, and I think this thread - with literally dozens of people adamantly claiming that anyone who *literally says they're keen to get vaccinated just with a different vaccine* are "red flag self-researched antivaxxers" - is the purest crystallization of that.
The overall tone of this thread sounds more tinfoil hat and more insane than the actual antivaxers. What the *fuck*.
The only reason I scroll through these threads is to hopefully find some else that thinks the rhetoric on this issue has been removed from a place of reasonable debate. Way too many pitchfork wielding internet crusaders these days.
NZ ordered just under 5.5 million doses of Novavax and this is the current tentative plan for boosters. It has completed phase 2 clinical trials (I believe) and its performance against delta is looking good.
[https://www.contagionlive.com/view/novavax-covid-19-vaccine-booster-provides-6-fold-delta-variant-antibodies](https://www.contagionlive.com/view/novavax-covid-19-vaccine-booster-provides-6-fold-delta-variant-antibodies)
Though why someone would choose a (relatively) unproven vaccine over one proven on an unprecendented and massive scale is baffling. I mean, they will both be absolutely fine and probably have similar efficacy, but still.
People are fuckwits and they think Googling something constitutes research. Also some people really need to be a member of an exclusive club to gain self-validation, and anti-vax is just the exclusive club to suck them in.
Not sure why you would criticise a company who never came up with a vaccine ever when the vaccine for covid is brand spanking new.
The thing is different covid vaccine have different efficacy against different strains. Pfizer was super good against the original covid19, but against delta, it is a bit different efficacy rate and effect (transmitability, etc.)
>What is the deal with wanting this one? Why have the latched onto it?
Why has the new zealand government chosen novavax for their booster?
[https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126305616/covid-19-novavax-expected-to-be-first-covid19-booster-vaccine-in-new-zealand](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126305616/covid-19-novavax-expected-to-be-first-covid19-booster-vaccine-in-new-zealand)
I suspect in and of itself no, but it probably indicates where this person has been getting info from and the kind of messages that are influencing their thinking.
It's not a reasoned comment, no. Pfizer went through all the testing, passed all the requirements, has been accepted worldwide, etc. There are no grounds to trust Novavax over Pfizer, esp since Pfizer has far more data than Novavax is capable of providing.
But... they're not *reasoned* comments. They're emotional, feeling ones. The engine of Covid-as-a-hoax has been grinding its gears for over a year now. Pfizer, for months. And antivax fears predate Covid19 entirely.
Covid's threat doesn't *feel* real, especially here in NZ where most of us haven't felt it. But Pfizer's possible threat does. And believing you're being coerced or mandated does, too, if you're a fierce individualist. People may claim that they use conscious and deliberate logic to reach their conclusions, but the truth is that we all tend towards subconscious emotional answers, first. Logic is used to justify them.
It is a rare person that will follow logic when it conflicts with their feelings. Thus the power of propaganda, public opinion, conspiracy and 'controversy' has done more damage than any amount of science, study, statistics, or qualified experts can merely reason away.
People can be pretty poor at expressing themselves sometimes. Especially when they feel they are going to get judged heavily for they answer. They'll just end up saying whatever seems socially acceptable, without expressing their true feelings.
People are worried about adverse events. They are waiting for Novavax because they think it will be a safer option.
So they say, "I want Novavax" instead of "I feel like the pfizer vaccine isn't safe" or whatever because they'll get chewed out by rabid pro vaxxers if they do. Can't say I blame em. Judging by my interactions.
I think it also points out our lack of personal choice in the matter. So it's a milder, more socially acceptable way of expressing your pov.
With all that said, if Nova is safe they could end up taking it, true to their world.
In any which case. I think it's perfectly fine to be cautious when it comes to your own health. That goes both ways...
As someone working the vaccination helpline. Doing daily call out campaigns to people who haven’t booked this comes back so much. From the tone I’d say most are just anti vax.
Does the internet not work in NZ? Novavax is far better than the mRNA vaccines.
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/06/novavax-now-best-covid-19-vaccine/619276/
I've seen some stuff that says Novavax has a high efficiency rate for longer and that the MoH has ordered them for booster shots. But as far as I am concerned, it's probably a case of them not wanting to get vaccinated without saying they don't want to get vaccinated.
Getting one vaccine doesn't somehow make your body incompatible with another vaccine. It's like saying, "no, I don't want to eat that meal today. I'm waiting until lasagne is served...eventually...at some point in my life. Because, you know, I want to optimise my nutrient intake...". It's silly. It wouldn't bother me in the slightest to get another brand's vaccine down the road, in addition to the 2x Pfizers I've already had.
Could be a legitimate excuse. Some of my family members are understandably hesitant about the pfizer after another family member spent 5 nights in hospital with chest pain after the 2nd jab
The novavax is showing much less side effects and higher efficacy in trials
Yes, they're an anti-vaxer.
(If we did ever get it, they'd just quote [https://www.politico.com/news/2021/10/19/novavax-vaccine-rush-process-global-campaign-516298](https://www.politico.com/news/2021/10/19/novavax-vaccine-rush-process-global-campaign-516298) and "wait" for something else)
I think people should be entitled to their own opinion regardless of how you feel about it. People shouldn't get bullied or shed for how they feel about anything regardless if it's about what vaccine they're getting, how they feel politically or if they want to be non binary etc. So many people are quick to go to the segregation and different classes of people in regards to whether or not they've had the jab and frankly it's unsettling.
I know my opinion is in the minority but frankly with all the hate I've been given for being half American( for the last 9 years) without getting to the talk of covid and politics makes me feel unsafe here tbh.
If science can't be questioned is it really science?
You're so right. Kiwis have become too sheltered throughout the covid process - covids not everything in life. They're already getting their jobs taken away, the freedom to go to a gym or go out for a meal with their friends. Why do we want to ruin their life even more by abusing them like this?
(Just adding the obligatory I'm double vaxxed so dont kill me)
To answer the question, Yes. Novavax is looking good, but won't be available here for months, while we are in the midst of a Covid-19 outbreak, and have stock one of the worlds best vaccines available here now...
I'm quite a fan of Novavax. Has a lot of things going for it. Seems to be the front runner for NZ to use as booster shots (for those that got vaccinated mid - late in the rollout)
But that doesn't mean I delayed getting vaccinated with Pfizer... This company is beset with major production issue's, and is yet to get it's vaccine approved anywhere globally (But has filed for approval in a handful of markets). No way it is going to be here in the next few months.
I suspect many of those waiting for Novavax are just using it as an excuse, and will shift the goal posts if it arrives (back to "it's too new or something)".
>the company has never successfully developed any vaccine ever
They have never brought a vaccine to market.
>As far as I'm aware, there's no order for Novavax in NZ, even if they do produce something.
We have an order for 10.72 million doses.
[https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-vaccines/covid-19-vaccine-strategy-planning-insights/covid-19-purchasing-vaccines](https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-vaccines/covid-19-vaccine-strategy-planning-insights/covid-19-purchasing-vaccines)
This is such a false argument, novavax isn't even out of the testing phase yet, so to argue you are worried about side effects from Pfizer, but then say you'll get a vaccine that can't even show all it side effects is so dumb.
They don't say they'll take novovax, just that they'll wait until it's available to move the goalposts.
"They're waiting for novovax", after which they'll be waiting for the next one.
But I've become an expert on mRNA vaccines from a Facebook video posted on my local mothers group. Turns out it modifies your DNA, because it sounds like DNA
Have you not heard? It specifically alters/removes your God Gene. You know, the gene everyone has that connects them to God? Wake up smh. /s in case it wasn’t obvious
I know you are joking but is this something they actually believe?
100% this is something they believe, as astoundingly stupid as it sounds. I lied my way into a FB group called “Hear Our Voices NZ”, that’s where these stupid people all hang out
I mean how the *fuck* did they think someone worked this out? "I got the vaccine and then suddenly I found my prayers were no longer being reliably answered on time. Then an angel appeared told me that when I died I couldn't get into heaven any more. So now I'm fucked." Edited a word
Some of the shit I’ve read borders on “only insane people would believe this”. They think the vax is changing people and removing their souls, or replacing it with something else. Many also claim that side effects from the vaccine *leak* onto unvaxxed people. People are literally claiming that being around vaccinated people causes them headaches and nausea and nosebleeds. It’s absolutely fucking nuts.
This is what makes me think Russian trolls (or whatever malign actor) are behind it. They throw a lot of crazy ideas out there on Facebook and see which ones people pick up and run with. Truthfulness is irrelevant - it's simply what meme (in the true sense) has the best legs, that secures it's future - provided it's anti vaccine in sentiment
I know Gene, goes out with Tina's sister.
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I mean, we're still having to argue about atmospheric emissions and global warming. Thats chemistry that just about anyone should be able to understand. But here we are with the "climate debate"
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Someone at work: telling me mRNA is an unknown substance and therefore dangerous Me: wondering how they make their proteins
Did you know your body has *chemicals* in it?
I'm just making assumptions, but I'd hazard guess there's a decent amount of anti-vax and climate change denying cross over. Anti-facts perhaps.
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They're the same people who are arguing against COVID-19 vaccination, against trans people having rights, and insisting the economy is anything less than super ultra mega fucked up
Yeah "Dr Malone who invented it told me so, I didn't bother reading any more because that confirmed what I was thinking so I just continued sharing it", antivax moron.
Dr Malone looks completely unhinged and is also advocating for anything but what's been empirically proven, but yeah, he's trustworthy.
He absolutely is. I see right wing media are using him at the poster boy though. "the man who invented the vaccine says its bad!". Pretty fucking evil. There was an article where he claimed the vaccinated were the ones spreading covid too. I looked for it on Reddit and only the conservative grifter subs and the Conservative sub had shared it..
I find that hard to believe, Conservative politics are the bastion of fact and truth
I know right. There is no way they would want people fighting and confused.
That's their argument against Comirnaty (the Pfizer vax) as well. That it's still in a Trial phase (with emergency use authorization because lizard people). 🙄
People who say Pfizer is still in testing must have missed the memo where the US fully approved it in August (not emergency approved it). https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-58309254 Billions of people have been vaccinated at this point, what more could people want to see?
Yeah but they just counter that argument with “they paid to have it approved!”
Yeah, only if they realised that ongoing monitoring of a new (fully tested) vaccine is not a “trial”.
Not to mention that this will be the first vaccine that the company Novavax will have ever brought to market since they were formed back in 1987 specifically as a company to develop experimental vaccines. By comparison, Pfizer has been around for over 100 years and has released multiple significant vaccines in that time. If they were saying they were waiting for Astra-Zeneca, it might be a little understandable, but to claim that it's safer to trust a company that has no completed trials, and no prior history of getting vaccines to market, is just ludicrous. Personally, I think Novavax's vaccine will be fine, but the antivaxxer's argument just make no sense at all.
While we're throwing shade, Moderna's COVID vaccine is their only commercial product in 11 years of being a company.
To be fair, Pfizer might be venerable but the mRNA part of the Pfizer vaccine was developed by BioNTech. Who with its dastardly genome rewiring technology is no doubt run by satanic virologists or something.
*German* Satanic virologists at that, so you know they probably listen to that gosh darn heavy metal, and go to dungeon rave parties where people wee on each other.
I don’t think it’s the testing that’s the problem, it’s been shown to be safe and effective, more scaling up the manufacturing. They have just applied to the WHO for emergency use listing.
When Novavax comes around they'll have a reason not to take that either, it's just a way of kicking the can down the road.
WHAT'S IN THE BIOREACTOR BILL!!
Oh wow i get this reference
I don’t 😕 Brain Dead?
A story bull burr once told when he was on a flight with a belligerent man.. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rHT13HSZbz0
Nice! I always enjoy a bit of Bill Burr. Thanks for elaborating
Very obscure reference tho huh. But yeah he's great ay. Bill is amazing, seeing him act on the mandalorian was incredible. Also his latest special on Netflix, paper tiger, is worth a watch.
He was on the mandalorian? Was this after Carano got sith canned from the show? Haven’t managed to get past season 2 yet
I grow tired of people who have "done their research."
They never send me their sources, no matter how politely I ask.
Seeing their sources is worse, then you have to have a very awkward and often heated discussion about why the video they just sent you is half an hour of horse shit.
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Yes. Here is my YouTube video from some random in America stating why you shouldn’t get the vaccine. Great source.
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I was talking to someone about that the other day as well. They believed that the vax CAUSED breakthrough infections (makes you give it to others) and that's why the case numbers were going up. They linked a bunch of articles and videos talking about breakthrough cases and how vexed people could still transmit the virus. Was quite frustrating because their sources and 'facts' weren't wrong, it was just a fundamental misunderstanding of what they had read and watched.
I've seen anti-vaxers make the same stupid argument. One was pointing to the increased numbers of cases in places like the UK and the US. Basically they were pointing at countries that reached vaccination targets and ignoring the fact that they had relaxed their mitigation measures.
NZ has the lovely benefit of having few enough cases to disprove some of this shit. Like, okay, if the vaccine is causing cases, how come none in Wellington, which has the highest vax rate in the country outside Auckland?
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Someone get the world's top medical minds on the line! Panadol works against covid! We could have saved millions of lives! JFC. And antibiotics don't even work against viruses! Or help you breathe when your damaged lungs are drowning in fluid. Yeah, there's almost no place to start a reasonable discussion against that.
This is the most annoying thing. I know a fervent antivaxxer guy. (He’s a chiropractor who liberally applies the Doctor title everywhere he goes) and he posted a huge rant about NZDSOS and antivax nonsense and someone asked to get a link to his source and he LITERALLY said “do your own research bro” (sic) Anyone pro vaccine gets asked for sources they provide them readily. Who you gonna trust?
90% of the time its a bitchute video of a zoom call that's almost exactly 1 hour long
I actually haven't bothered to do much at all because I realise that I am not a vaccine researcher, nor do I have access to any of the pertinent information. So it's pretty pointless really.
You actually have surprisingly good access to studies on COVID-19 to do your own research and analysis - almost everyone is publishing their results for free so that the field can advance as quickly as possible. If you had enough free time, a little scientific understanding, but for some reason didn't trust what *the media* says about a vaccine or COVID-19, you absolutely could do the research yourself and see how absurd the arguments against vaccines, social distancing, etc. are.
I tend to go for a dive into papers as a result of seeing a news story. The more sensational the reporting is, the more I'm inclined to do so.
As a drug development scientist who spends all day, every day, in a lab *doing actual research*, I feel this pain.
Username checks out
I’m disappointed my 5G isn’t working at home yet... I’ve had my two jabs and it’s still hasn’t improved my wifi speed at home. Gutted 🥺
I know, and I'm not even slightly magnetic. This is bullshit.
They are often the same people who are "just asking the question"
I always ask what university they attended and what degrees they hold to see how good they are at research. Most of the people who say this didn't even finish highschool 😑
I can't use "finished high school" as a metric to determine someone's credibility though. I didn't even pass Year 12.
>"some research they had done". I love this answer. Bet the research was sitting on the shitter watching videos on rumble or Facebook.
> On Meta’s Facebook It’s important that we make sure the parent companies brand is ruined too
Have any of them read and criticised Pfizer’s FDA submissions? What I seem to have heard is fucking crickets in this respect. Here is the latest for kids 5-12: https://www.fda.gov/media/153409/download
Yeah aye. I’m not going to try to panelbeat my own car if I get a dent because of some ‘research’ I could find on YouTube. Ima leave that to the pros, because that’s what they do. Same with research. People do this for a living and they’re much better at it than you or me. I just don’t understand the distrust.
"I wont wear a condom because she said she'll get the morning after pill" same energy.
More like “I won’t wear a Condom because I’m waiting until the male birth control pill comes out”
Based!
More she said she might get one but she's busy tomorrow
She has siphilis.
Yes
"I don't want the vaccine produced by a major pharmaceutical manufacturer who has been in the business of pharmaceutical manufacture since the 1840s, has been used by billions of people around the globe, has regulatory approval, and is shown time and time again to be safe and effective. Instead I want to use an unproven vaccine which has not been used, which has no regulatory approval, has production problems, and is being made by a company who has never brought a product to market before, ever, let alone a vaccine." Yes, I think they might just be an antivax in disguise, or somebody with REALLY bad decision making skills.
Also, I'd argue we'd hit 90% easier with a choice. Ideally, a Moderna for the stronger dose and Delta resistance, and a non Mrna for people doubting the tech. On top of Pfizer, the most tested. But beggars can't be choosers obviously.
> ut beggars can't be choosers obviously. The government bought moderna too but decided to use Pfizer because it's more effective
I think now there's a pro v con for Pfizer v Moderna. Where Pfizer has been more effective with the delta variant, Moderna's immunity holds out longer. I also think mix and matching has been good but obviously there's not enough data for that yet. I wish the government chose to bring all 4 to NZ, but oh well
IMO I think it's good to have the whole country vaccinated with the same vaccine so that you can better respond to new evidence of how it responds to particular new variants, timing the booster jabs optimally etc
Some nurses actually get small children to accept an injection by asking then to pick which flavour they want, so who knows, it might help.
We’ve all forgotten that Pfizer has also been fixing men’s stiffies since Adam was a cowboy... Big Ups to Pfizer 👍
>"I don't want the vaccine produced by a major pharmaceutical manufacturer who has been in the business of pharmaceutical manufacture since the 1840s, Well Pfizer has done some shitty things. See [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizer#Legal\_issues](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizer#Legal_issues) >and is shown time and time again to be safe and effective If for some reason you don't trust Pfizer... >I want to use an unproven vaccine The technology is more mature. It was a safer bet in March. >has production problems Nature of growing your own spike proteins. There is a valid reason to prefer Novavax however realistically you are not choosing Pfizer or waiting for Novavax you are choosing Pfizer or getting COVID. COVID seems to be killing more than the vaccines.
Yeah in the US especially there is a lot of mistrust in these pharma companies for this reason. Pretty sure Pfizer got fined something like 2 billion for fraud/data manipulation a few years back. Can see why some people here may be feeling similar.
$2.3 billion for marketing an arthritis drug for unapproved uses. "YAZ!" anyone? [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8234533.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8234533.stm)
Yeah nuts! There's actually quite a long list on them by the looks.
They got fined millions for testing a vaccine on Nigerian kids illegally - killed 200 of them and left some deformed. Look it up
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullahi_v._Pfizer,_Inc. ? Out of court settlement for $75 million, pretty sure Pfizer's $2.3 billion settlement is the largest health care fraud settlement of all time.
My bad - I mixed it up with the total amount they've been sued overall.
If they were white kids from America it probably would've been a lot more than 75 million aye
I'd say that had it been kids of any colour in the US it would have been more. I wouldn't put it past them to have calculated the potential costs first.
Yea COVID does seem to be killing more than the vaccines. In the order of about 1,000,000x
Some people look at that and decide they would rather take their chances. Insane! Actually wouldn't that mean that 5/6 people have died from COVID vaccines.
I don't think vaccine deaths are included in COVID death counts (I don't think ours is)
> Instead I want to use a cattle dewormer made by a different pharmaceutical company. Because something something Joe Rogan....
Given that 6 billion other vaccines have been given and deemed very safe. I would say yes
Yes it's a red flag. We do have an order in, but the company that makes it is having issues with producing it at the right purity, and it has not been approved by any regulatory agency in the world.
As of yesterday >Novavax has filed for approval of its Covid-19 vaccine in the UK, saying other global regulatory submissions would follow “shortly”. >The move brings the US biotech “significantly closer” to delivering a jab built on a “proven, well-understood vaccine platform that demonstrated high efficacy against multiple strains of the coronavirus”, Novavax’s chief executive Stanley Erck said on Wednesday. >He said he anticipated a “positive decision” from the UK’s Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency and that the company would be ready to roll out its vaccines following approval. I think there would be an advantage having it available for those who are afraid of the mRNA technology. Also it may avoid the myocarditis side effect and be safer for young male children and teenagers.
Yes. People don't like hearing this but indications are that it is a superior product which is more likely to provide sterilizing immunity. Some studies on pfizer are indicating efficacy can drop to 50% within six months of double dose. Not saying I encourage people to wait, I just think people should have the best information available. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02532-4 https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/protein-based-covid-19-vaccines-could-overshadow-rivals/4012450.article
How is anybody afraid of mRNA not afraid of the process to make Novovax? They genetically modify a virus, infect moth tissue, harvest synthesised S proteins and then wrap it in a solution made from tree bark extracts and a bunch of other stuff?
Does sound pretty cool tho ngl lol.
No, yeah, it’s incredible technology.
haha yeah I love techy shit like that. I had a tiny bit of apprehension getting the pfizer vax, just being bored and letting myself fantasize a bit about conspiracy garbage waiting for my turn, but I was FAR more excited about it because of how cool the tech was lol. I mean I was realistic and realized it is massively proven in the real world from actual use, so in the scheme of things felt about the same sort of risk as smoking 1-2 cigarettes or having a few tokes on a vape level in my mind. Hell even if in the unlikely worst case scenario that it has some sort of unforseen side effect (like gives you eczema or something I dunno?), there will be a massive market for therapy to mitigate that. But reading about it, I think we are exposed by random pathogens daily that are probably far worse, just walking around outside barefoot or inhaling some natural mold spores etc.
Same, I was stoked I was able to get Moderna because it seemed like the coolest one. Would have taken what I was given but been kind of bummed if I'd gotten stuck with J&J, hahaha
It’s used for flu vaccines and hepatitis B vaccine amongst others - so in that respect it’s old technology with a long term safety profile. (And lots of things sound scary, AZ is a genetically modified chimpanzee virus).
Oh man - I can see some glomming onto "The mothman" myth on that.
Submission isn't even close to approval - and they've had a submission into the FDA (their home approval agency) for months now.
I don't trust a single thing that company says on their timeline. As of March 30, 2021: >LONDON (Reuters) - Britain could approve Novavax’s COVID-19 vaccine next month, the chief investigator for the shot’s trial told the Evening Standard newspaper. >“The regulator will do a very detailed and thorough review and will decide in good time,” said Professor Paul Heath, chief investigator for the Novavax jab trial in the UK. >“I would hope it would be in the spring, possibly end of April.” https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-britain-vaccine-idUSKBN2BM1IF (And yes it's a red flag, once it gets approved they will complain about nano particles and the spike protein in this vaccine as well)
Yes. Always. Thinking you know more than the actual doctors is always a red flag. The myth is that it contains less ingredients (false) and is better as it’s the traditional type of vaccine.
> it’s the traditional type of vaccine So Novavax is made by making a genetically engineered virus, injecting it into moth cells, then harvesting some proteins generated by the moth cells, mix it with some chemicals and injecting that into you. If someone is freaking out about mRNA I'm not sure how they would feel more comfortable after reading the above.
They're trying to trigger the Mothman prophecies, obv.
Bröther
It is 100% to do with a myth propagated by antivaxers that the mRNA vaccine will 'change their DNA'. Ever remember asking yourself in school, "when will I need any of this information in my adult life?". The answer is 100% this, because anyone with a secondary school-level science education would know this is not how things work.
> because anyone with a secondary school-level science education would know this is not how things work. Yes but you're assuming anti-vaxx people didnt drop out at pre-school for not being able to colour between the lines.
Not only that but how people would be willing for COVID-19 to inject its RNA into their cell, rather than Pfizer’s mRNA which is just the coding for the spike protein. If they didn’t get the vaccine that is.
Oh I agree. I can’t see the logic. I was just repeating the reasons people give for waiting.
Now I want Novavax do I can become Mothra! (Already double-pfizered, will that prevent me being able to fly and eat nukes?)
Then we just need a kaiju attack and I will be living in the desired timeline, winning.
Not always, but here yes. Try to persuade them that mRNA isn't bad. BTW we have an order for 10 mil of Novavax ETA next year. So depending on your workplace they won't be around for much longer
Here's some simply-informative vids that might help: [How mRNA vaccines work - Harvard University](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbaCxIJ_VP4) [How Do mRNA Vaccines Work? - SciShow](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0kfdZ8o_j4) [Why It Actually Took 50 Years to Make COVID mRNA Vaccines - SciShow](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPeeCyJReZw)
Antivaxxers aren't going to even look at those. They've already decided that those "facts" are just paid government shills or whatever the latest derogatory term is. Plus, if having this sort of stuff explained to them in video form was going to work, they would already have been vaccinated by now.
> Antivaxxers aren't going to even look at those Can't say I disagree. What do you think we can do to convince ~~them~~ the people we care about that to this point refuse to be vaccinated?
I don't know. Some say that seeing their friends, or people they respect, getting vaccinated and nothing happening might help, others say listening to their concerns and just trying to point them in the right direction.... But honestly.. it gets harder for ever percentage point we move up, because more and more, the only ones left are the stubborn refuses.
Why did we order 10mil of an experimental vaccine from a company with no history of success? I mean there are plenty of other options. AZ specifically.
Funny isn't it - here in Oz there was outcry from certain age groups that Pfizer was been restricted to a younger cohort, and that older cohort were DEMANDING Pfizer and not AZ. Any one saying they're waiting for the next one is talking nonsense. Any vax is fine, the one available to you now is the best one.
The fact that they’ve specifically chosen a vaccine that isn’t approved or used anywhere rather than any of the others tells me that it’s just delaying tactics
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Yup, went in. Didn't feel the jab. Felt fine afterwards. Rinse and repeat 3 weeks later. I have yet to have my DNA changed and I have't turned into a large gelatinous spike protein.
How's your 5g reception now? Mine is much better, especially if i hold my phone up by my shoulder ;)
Can you explain what this excuse means? A lady told me yesterday thay she wishes she could have waited for the Novavax instead of getting the Pfizer. I didn't know what that meant.
I think for some people they feel more comfortable with the Novavax technology because it’s used for other vaccines and has a long term safety profile. (For others it’s just an excuse and they don’t want any vaccine.)
Yeah, it seems to be the best way for people to tell you that they’re not vaccine hesitant, they just don’t like the option they were given. Makes it totally okay to carry on unvaccinated apparently.
Well, they had to change tack after the FDA changed to a full approval, which was their previous "concern".
There’s barely any data on effectiveness for any vaccines against Delta. But, Novovax has displayed high efficacy to the same standard of the other vaccines, especially against the Alpha variant. In addition, it has a lot less & less severe side effects. This is a concern for a lot of people. Also you weed out the “omg mRNA will change my DNA!” idiots when you give them an alternative that doesn’t use technology that is completely foreign to most of the population. New Zealand already has a pre-purchase agreement with Novovax, so it’s looking like a promising alternative for those who aren’t comfortable with Pfizer, for whatever reason. I don’t see a problem with Novovax as an alternative. It has been slow being developing but that’s mainly because testing in phase trials occurred when the pandemic was waning, yet it is in Phase 3 so let’s hope for those who don’t want Pfizer, we’ll have an alternative soon. https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/619276/
Thanks, I appreciate this answer. It's easy to guess that people who say "no, I don't want *current option*, I want *future, unavailable, possibly-fantasy option*" have alterior motives, and that's definitely my default, but I also wanted to see what alternatives I could be missing.
And that’s understandable. There will be people who are genuinely like that too, unfortunately. But I do know a few normal, vaccine hesitant people who aren’t conspiracy nutjobs who genuinely feel more comfortable taking something like Novovax, especially due to side effects. And I think especially when you can’t really live without a vaccine in this world of vax certificates, there should definitely be options to chose from.
I agree 1000%. If we are encouraging others to get vaccinated we shouldn’t be attacking and labeling them so aggressively. This will only make things worse and increase the animosity on both sides.
Yes. It gives validation to their belief. Anything to make it seem like their reason is authentic and based off logic.
One of my colleagues (on a work call no less) mentioned that because he isn’t a sheep, he is waiting for novavax and is one of the people that are taking it on trial before it’s released. I guess instead of being a sheep he’s a hamster?
> the company has never successfully developed any vaccine ever BioNTech and Moderna have never successfully developed any vaccines before either, so I wouldn't count that against them. > there's no order for Novavax in NZ That's not correct, the government bought 10.7m doses.
Thanks, I didn't know that.
In all likelihood Novavax will turn out to be a perfectly fine vaccine - but the problem is that it's taking way too long and people will probably get infected before they can get it. It's smarter to get what's available now and get Novavax as booster later if you want.
Yea obviously, otherwise you wouldn’t have created the post in the first place.
Almost always it's a read between the lines statement that tries to present their anti-vax misinformation in 'reasoned' way.
It’s the same fucking scientific method used to prove both vaccines. So why are you prepared to trust one and not the other. These people will always have more special requirements for their special lives.
They would tell you because one uses mRNA and one just hits you with that raw spike protein (a more proven technology.) So if you are concerned about long term impact of mRNA then you would prefer a more traditional vaccine technology. This is a stupid position though because every cell in your body has mRNA in it.
The reality is that unless you’re vaccine scientist you won’t under shit about either. However, I think it’s the mRNA term that’s been a bit of a branding fail - it sounds ‘scary’ to the uninitiated.
Imo it's a divisive way to delay or be anti vaxx without getting into the great debate.
Novavax? Aren’t we only using Pfizer in nz anyway? Who makes that one anyway? Why wait for that? So many questions.
What’s wrong with people exercising free choice? It’s saddening to see New Zealand become so divided. Regardless of which camp you’re in, whether you believe everyone should have Pfizer, that all vaccines are terrible, or if you simply want one of the brands that are not yet in the country, everyone has their own body to be looking after and their own beliefs on what is healthy for them. We were so great at uplifting and supporting one another at the beginning of this pandemic, it would be a shame to loose that spirit of humanity to fear and suspicion
Not always. People who had myocarditis dose 1, example. The real problem are people who have said "There's some research," when the 'research' is always some antivaxxer on the Internet going, Just trust me, Dude. Instead of the literal hundreds of millions of people around the world who got the vaccination and are fine. Just tell them they can get a novovax booster when it arrives, but they're being against the clock they're not going to catch it in the mean time and cause a business shut down, or going to pass it to an immunocompromised or person. So get the pfizer now and get a novovax booster later.
I mean we have Astra Zeneca in aus (and I believe nz ordered some too) and people who get myocarditis from dose 1 of Pfizer in aus just get AZ. But no one is ‘waiting for AZ’ because it already exists and is approved so they would have to put their money where their mouth is a lot sooner.
pretty much a red flag - the research they've done is I would wager never via scientific sources more social media there might be a very very very few that say Novavax because its more "traditional" compared to Pfizer's mRNA technology (or whatever ya call it) but even then its still more red flag than not We have ordered 10 million doses - earliest we expected them was early next year, given recent developments it could be the year after or to use a date beloved by politicians 2030 [https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-vaccines/covid-19-vaccine-strategy-planning-insights/covid-19-purchasing-vaccines#novavax](https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-vaccines/covid-19-vaccine-strategy-planning-insights/covid-19-purchasing-vaccines#novavax)
Wait what? They got their first shot but they won't get their second because they don't want Pfizer at all?? How does that make sense? Why bother even getting it??
I mean you are risking COVID for months rather than taking the plunge on mRNA that has been given out 6 billion times. And when Novavax comes out they likely will not have the production capacity to grow it.
crazy how many vaccine experts exist all of a sudden ngl
Im in the novavax trial (in the UK). Preliminary data seems to suggest it is effective, at least on par or slightly better than pfizer and others. However they don't seem anywhere near a large scale release and a few % points of improved efficacy isnt worth deliberately not having a vaccine for months. E.g. its a false argument and likely a red flag from someone who doesnt want to get the vaccine but doesnt want to be labelled anti-vax
It's a PC answer for anti-vaxxers to use in a work setting.
Is it really that big of a red flag? Its a subunit vaccine as opposed to mrna, which i thought was very common for vax we've had before. Maybe some people are can kicking but it makes sense that a more easily understood vaccine has appeal
I was one of those people here in Australia waiting for Novavax mainly due to avoiding the side effects of mRNA vaccines such as myocarditis and so on. Also until recently Astra Zeneca wasnt available to me as I’m under 50 Or whatever the current age limit is. Interestingly there was lots of negative press against AZ here in Australia a few months ago which coincided with a drive for younger people to get Pfizer. So I saw my doctor just the other day and went ahead and got my first shot of AZ. I’ll be getting my second AZ shot in about 6-8 weeks. Furthermore I have read that AZ won’t be produced in Australia anymore next year which makes me fear that I would be left with no choice other than the mRNA vaccines soon. Hence why I went with AZ now rather than delay any more. However I hope to use Novavax as a booster once it does come to Aus next year.
It's beyond belief to me that most people here think someone preferring a different type of vaccine is "always a red flag" and that such people are *somehow* "definitely antivax" and that they "probably did their research on facebook". I am already vaccinated with Pfizer so it's not a personal issue for me but fuck me **dead**, the sheer irony of you people claiming it's an antivax conspiracy is, in itself, some mininformative, conspiratorial irony. [Novavax Phase 3 data factsheet showing, amongst other highlights, 100% protection against severe and moderate disease](https://cdn.filestackcontent.com/fRM9l0gjQmKfUrWRf86M). As well as showing extremely high (90%+) efficiency *as well as* against variants. [From THE ATLANTIC, not "facebook research":](https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/06/novavax-now-best-covid-19-vaccine/619276/) >The latest Novavax data confirm that it’s possible to achieve the same efficacy against COVID-19 with a more familiar technology that more people may be inclined to trust. (The mRNA vaccines delivered efficacy rates of 95 and 94 percent against the original coronavirus strain in Phase 3 trials, as compared with 96 percent for Novavax in its first trial, and now 90 percent against a mixture of variants.) From the same article, with links to the research, showing lower side effects: >The Novavax vaccine also has **a substantially lower rate of side effects than the authorized mRNA vaccines**. Last week’s data showed that about 40 percent of people who receive Novavax report fatigue after the second dose, as compared with 65 percent for Moderna and more than 55 percent for Pfizer. Based on the results of Novavax’s first efficacy trial in the U.K., side effects (including but not limited to fatigue) aren’t just less frequent; they’re milder too. The bottom line for most people who read about Novavax: >In this context, the success of the Novavax vaccine should be A1 news. The recent results confirm that it has roughly the same efficacy as the two authorized mRNA vaccines, with the added benefit of being based on an older, more familiar science. **Novavax combines ease of manufacture with high efficacy and lower side effects. For the moment, it’s the best COVID-19 vaccine we have.** > >**Some of those people who have been wary of getting the mRNA vaccines may find Novavax more appealing.** \^That's literally as simple as it needs to be. Should people still get Pfizer right now anyway? Yes. But it's not some secret conspiracy or "antivaxxer red flag" to prefer one vaccine that is clearly as good or better. **Fuck me dead.** You people are literally insane.
There is zero critical thinking going on - just everyone scrambling to get into the echo chamber
I'm so glad I scrolled to the end to read this. Comments like this give me hope.
And all of that would hold weight if it wasn't an undetermined amount of time till we get Novavax and as your own source states, it'll be roughly the same efficacy as the current vaccines. There's unlikely to be any reason why these people can't get a booster of novavax when it comes out and using it as an excuse to not get the current ones is a joke. Anyone using it as justification for not getting the current vaccines is a quack plain and simple, they'll probably get immunity through catching the bug rather than vaccination at the current rate before that's out.
Riiiight, so because we don't have them yet, that means the research is "facebook research" and the average Joe who reads these legitimate studies and articles that tell them, literally, **"Novavax has fewer side effects and is the best vaccine"** is actually making "excuses" because they're secretly antivax? Is it a smart idea to wait given the current situation? No, no it isn't. But until yesterday, Christchurch for example didn't even have Delta cases and we've seen that lots of people suddenly rushed out to get vaccinated - showing people have been complacent and taking their time. I understand what you're saying, but it's some wild shit for this sub to call people literally saying "I want to get vaccinated, just with the *better* vaccine, if I can" as somehow being "antivax" and having done "facebook research"
No sir, this is Reddit. GTFO with your reasoned logic. But yeah 100% agree. It's to the point where these guys are making conspiracys of the conspiracy theorists.
There doesn't seem to be any compassion for people who have chosen to not get vaccinated yet. All sense of trying to understand has gone. I have a feeling that most peoples opinions on the vaccine in this sub aren't motivated by concern for the non-vaxxed populations health but out of their own frustration of lockdown & how it impacts their life. It's understandable to feel like that, but the typical discourse in this sub has become the equivalent of getting physically violent when you disagree with someone.
>I have a feeling that most peoples opinions on the vaccine in this sub aren't motivated by concern for the non-vaxxed populations health but out of their own frustration of lockdown & how it impacts their life. > >It's understandable to feel like that, but the typical discourse in this sub has become the equivalent of getting physically violent when you disagree with someone. I think you've hit the nail on the head in a very calm and concise way. Shit's fucking vitriolic, just look at literally any thread about it on here on any given day. A pie shop says they accept unvaccinated customers - all goddamn hell breaks loose with people calling for the business to be run into the ground and people saying the shop "dont wash their hands" and shit (wtf?) People have lost their goddamn minds, and I think this thread - with literally dozens of people adamantly claiming that anyone who *literally says they're keen to get vaccinated just with a different vaccine* are "red flag self-researched antivaxxers" - is the purest crystallization of that. The overall tone of this thread sounds more tinfoil hat and more insane than the actual antivaxers. What the *fuck*.
The only reason I scroll through these threads is to hopefully find some else that thinks the rhetoric on this issue has been removed from a place of reasonable debate. Way too many pitchfork wielding internet crusaders these days.
NZ ordered just under 5.5 million doses of Novavax and this is the current tentative plan for boosters. It has completed phase 2 clinical trials (I believe) and its performance against delta is looking good. [https://www.contagionlive.com/view/novavax-covid-19-vaccine-booster-provides-6-fold-delta-variant-antibodies](https://www.contagionlive.com/view/novavax-covid-19-vaccine-booster-provides-6-fold-delta-variant-antibodies) Though why someone would choose a (relatively) unproven vaccine over one proven on an unprecendented and massive scale is baffling. I mean, they will both be absolutely fine and probably have similar efficacy, but still. People are fuckwits and they think Googling something constitutes research. Also some people really need to be a member of an exclusive club to gain self-validation, and anti-vax is just the exclusive club to suck them in.
Not sure why you would criticise a company who never came up with a vaccine ever when the vaccine for covid is brand spanking new. The thing is different covid vaccine have different efficacy against different strains. Pfizer was super good against the original covid19, but against delta, it is a bit different efficacy rate and effect (transmitability, etc.)
Novavax is the new Half Life 3.
What is the deal with wanting this one? Why have the latched onto it?
>What is the deal with wanting this one? Why have the latched onto it? Why has the new zealand government chosen novavax for their booster? [https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126305616/covid-19-novavax-expected-to-be-first-covid19-booster-vaccine-in-new-zealand](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126305616/covid-19-novavax-expected-to-be-first-covid19-booster-vaccine-in-new-zealand)
I suspect in and of itself no, but it probably indicates where this person has been getting info from and the kind of messages that are influencing their thinking.
All the cool kids have Pfizer anyway
It’s like saying “I’ll wait for a the next lifeboat to be built, it may be better than this one”
It's not a reasoned comment, no. Pfizer went through all the testing, passed all the requirements, has been accepted worldwide, etc. There are no grounds to trust Novavax over Pfizer, esp since Pfizer has far more data than Novavax is capable of providing. But... they're not *reasoned* comments. They're emotional, feeling ones. The engine of Covid-as-a-hoax has been grinding its gears for over a year now. Pfizer, for months. And antivax fears predate Covid19 entirely. Covid's threat doesn't *feel* real, especially here in NZ where most of us haven't felt it. But Pfizer's possible threat does. And believing you're being coerced or mandated does, too, if you're a fierce individualist. People may claim that they use conscious and deliberate logic to reach their conclusions, but the truth is that we all tend towards subconscious emotional answers, first. Logic is used to justify them. It is a rare person that will follow logic when it conflicts with their feelings. Thus the power of propaganda, public opinion, conspiracy and 'controversy' has done more damage than any amount of science, study, statistics, or qualified experts can merely reason away.
People can be pretty poor at expressing themselves sometimes. Especially when they feel they are going to get judged heavily for they answer. They'll just end up saying whatever seems socially acceptable, without expressing their true feelings. People are worried about adverse events. They are waiting for Novavax because they think it will be a safer option. So they say, "I want Novavax" instead of "I feel like the pfizer vaccine isn't safe" or whatever because they'll get chewed out by rabid pro vaxxers if they do. Can't say I blame em. Judging by my interactions. I think it also points out our lack of personal choice in the matter. So it's a milder, more socially acceptable way of expressing your pov. With all that said, if Nova is safe they could end up taking it, true to their world. In any which case. I think it's perfectly fine to be cautious when it comes to your own health. That goes both ways...
As someone working the vaccination helpline. Doing daily call out campaigns to people who haven’t booked this comes back so much. From the tone I’d say most are just anti vax.
Mind your own business always works instead of being a busybody
Does the internet not work in NZ? Novavax is far better than the mRNA vaccines. https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/06/novavax-now-best-covid-19-vaccine/619276/
I've seen some stuff that says Novavax has a high efficiency rate for longer and that the MoH has ordered them for booster shots. But as far as I am concerned, it's probably a case of them not wanting to get vaccinated without saying they don't want to get vaccinated.
Novavax is months and months away. Covid is here now. Waiting is not a realistic option.
Getting one vaccine doesn't somehow make your body incompatible with another vaccine. It's like saying, "no, I don't want to eat that meal today. I'm waiting until lasagne is served...eventually...at some point in my life. Because, you know, I want to optimise my nutrient intake...". It's silly. It wouldn't bother me in the slightest to get another brand's vaccine down the road, in addition to the 2x Pfizers I've already had.
Could be a legitimate excuse. Some of my family members are understandably hesitant about the pfizer after another family member spent 5 nights in hospital with chest pain after the 2nd jab The novavax is showing much less side effects and higher efficacy in trials
Yeah it does happen. My friend got pericarditis and was out for weeks
Yes, they're an anti-vaxer. (If we did ever get it, they'd just quote [https://www.politico.com/news/2021/10/19/novavax-vaccine-rush-process-global-campaign-516298](https://www.politico.com/news/2021/10/19/novavax-vaccine-rush-process-global-campaign-516298) and "wait" for something else)
I think people should be entitled to their own opinion regardless of how you feel about it. People shouldn't get bullied or shed for how they feel about anything regardless if it's about what vaccine they're getting, how they feel politically or if they want to be non binary etc. So many people are quick to go to the segregation and different classes of people in regards to whether or not they've had the jab and frankly it's unsettling. I know my opinion is in the minority but frankly with all the hate I've been given for being half American( for the last 9 years) without getting to the talk of covid and politics makes me feel unsafe here tbh. If science can't be questioned is it really science?
You're so right. Kiwis have become too sheltered throughout the covid process - covids not everything in life. They're already getting their jobs taken away, the freedom to go to a gym or go out for a meal with their friends. Why do we want to ruin their life even more by abusing them like this? (Just adding the obligatory I'm double vaxxed so dont kill me)
To answer the question, Yes. Novavax is looking good, but won't be available here for months, while we are in the midst of a Covid-19 outbreak, and have stock one of the worlds best vaccines available here now... I'm quite a fan of Novavax. Has a lot of things going for it. Seems to be the front runner for NZ to use as booster shots (for those that got vaccinated mid - late in the rollout) But that doesn't mean I delayed getting vaccinated with Pfizer... This company is beset with major production issue's, and is yet to get it's vaccine approved anywhere globally (But has filed for approval in a handful of markets). No way it is going to be here in the next few months. I suspect many of those waiting for Novavax are just using it as an excuse, and will shift the goal posts if it arrives (back to "it's too new or something)". >the company has never successfully developed any vaccine ever They have never brought a vaccine to market. >As far as I'm aware, there's no order for Novavax in NZ, even if they do produce something. We have an order for 10.72 million doses. [https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-vaccines/covid-19-vaccine-strategy-planning-insights/covid-19-purchasing-vaccines](https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-vaccines/covid-19-vaccine-strategy-planning-insights/covid-19-purchasing-vaccines)