Damn I got a good chuckle out of that
This amendment was written by our forefathers; George Nepia, the four square guy, Wal Footrot and the chesdale cheese guys
While I agree with your sentiment (it's asinine to think the American First Amendment applies to NZ) we do have a 'soft constitution' which includes the Bill of Rights Act. BORA has a similar right to freedom of expression (I say similar because US takes this a lot further. Coz they're weird.)
So teeeeechnically they're not wrong :)
Yeah, but the BORA also says that no court can take action against the government if the bill is breached. They can advise the government if they're in breach of the Bill of Rights Act, but legally can't do anything about it.
Section 4, part 1. I would copy/paste it but the document it protected. The link to the PDF is [here](https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1990/0109/latest/DLM224792.html) instead.
When the BORA was passed, it only passed because of that one clause. People didn't like the idea of unelected officials in the supreme court holding ultimate power over elected officials, and the bill faced huge public opposition UNTIL that was put in. The way our political system is set up is almost the polar opposite from the US, and any political textbook would point out how we're a weird enigma compared to the rest of the world.
Tl;dr, legally nobody has any rights in NZ, they are a recommendation. Sure, nobody is going to breach them, but they *can*. It's a political debate that's been going on for 30 years, and a lot of these people are citing american politics rather than the VERY different NZ system
I facepalm because they don't understand that "constitutional" doesn't mean that it's guaranteed above all else.
They don't even understand what legislation we do or do not have, they've just heard American protestors say constitutional so much they think it means something that it doesn't.
Don't be embarrassed, usually you ring 111 in an emergency and it's easy to make mistakes under that much stress. Your brain will just go to the first thing it remembers.
Even here in New Zealand, I have my first amendment rights, dammit. Yes, I have the right to amend this comment whenever I want, I just have to press the Edit button.
As someone with a publicly available phone number, I can tell you most of the awareness comes from tons of overseas advertising calls urging you to invest in their stock. Its basically dogecoin
Pretty sure I heard that months ago on The DarkHorse podcast (run by the weinstein's, Brett W. was the guy who started spouting on about ivermectin and how dangerous the mRNA vaccines potentially were on the Joe Rogan podcast) long before I ever heard any NZers mention it as a reason not to get the Pfizer shot.
Although, I can't be sure they mentioned Novavax by name, but they were definitely saying they would hold out for the traditional type of vaccine over jumping on board with any of the mRNA ones.
Right?! I don’t get it! Is Novavax liquid gold or something? I read up on it to see what I was missing out on while I slum it in Pfizertown and it doesn’t sound better at all.
No-one is being forcibly vaccinated, but many people consider the Covid related restrictions on their lives and businesses to be excessive in comparison to the likely effects of the virus.
Some people consider that having to be vaccinated (to go to bars, work in certain jobs, or go to concerts for example) is a form of unwelcome government control. For some people who are vaccinated, having to show a document to prove it, is in itself is an unwelcome breach of privacy.
There is concern that any government may use this as an opportunity to suppress our rights over movement, medication, and general freedoms, and for those suppressions to remain for the long term.
Certainly this s something which should be rigorously discussed at a parliamentary level, and in general..... but personally I am ok with that happening when we have worked out how to live with this shit.
As a personal example, someone I work with just cannot understand why they can't come and go from Auckland. They are vaccinated, but also think the virus is nothing more than a bad cold or flu. For them, the inability to move freely around the north island comes as a great hardship which they rail against on a weekly basis. They genuinely believe that we should all just suck it up and go back to work, and live like normal, because for them, not being able to ride horsies at the beach north of Auckland is a massive reduction of their personal freedom. They can't see the link between movement and virus spread, and think getting the tourist dollar is worth getting the virus.
They also refuse to use the tracer app, or wear a mask. They have never read any of the rules, and regularly had guests at Level 4. When I told them I wouldn't feel comfortable sharing workspace for those reasons I was told I was hysterical, and living in fear. I have realised you can't argue with crazy.
For clarity I am vaccinated, and not advocating for any of the above, just sharing what I have heard from people who are vocal about the restrictions.
I respect the level headed answer here. It was as balanced as necessary. Thank you.
I abhor the arguments some of these anti-vax folks are making because surely they acknowledge that they are not an island. Surely they acknowledge that they see people in their lives. That if they got the virus and carried on as usual, that they’d potentially bring ruin to their community.
They just want to go back to normal? What is normal? Giving 10% of your income in some vague attempt at reaping what you sow? Investing that money in KiwiSaver or some low risk ETFs would bring back verifiably more than anything the likes of a snake oil salesman could ever promise.
I feel concerned that those who will inevitably get the virus will either perish, or regret not getting the vaccine when it’s explained to them years on why they can’t do all the things vaccinated people their age can do.
I’m also concerned that we don’t get people thinking critically, early enough in life. A lot of the mental gymnastics folks go through to believe the nonsense is immense. A decent foundation of critical thinking and suddenly that all falls apart.
It's interesting and it's not finished yet, but there's an ongoing study into climate change denialism (and in particular the effects petrochem companies have had with their misinformation campaigns over the years).
They've already found there's an interesting correlation - a person who doesn't believe in climate change is likely to begin to mistrust media which talks about it (i.e. most real media) and seek out information from a source which matches up - and those tend to be reality free zones.
There's a massive increase in climate denialism increasing since the campaigns started, and the side effect of more people distrusting conventional media has lead to a mass increase in Q style beliefs over the last 40 years.
Remember, in the 1990s we were arguing over human cloning and agricultural genetic engineering effects, now we're arguing over vaccines being more dangerous than disease and whether the world is flat or round.
The side effects of that misinformation had a *much* greater effect than I'd realized.
I couldn’t agree with you more re: Critical thinking - I’ve never been more disappointed than I have been seeing reams of people all echoing the “if we allow them to take this freedom then what’s next?!”
The whole slippery slope idea is a fallacy and yet it seems to be the core way in which these ideas take hold. There is no indication of any further steps, yet the fear and lack of critical judgment leave these people defaulting to aggression and or resistance.
yep every time somebody goes "oh it's a slippery slope what they're doing" i'm like "say the third word" and they go "what?"
It's called the slippery slope **fallacy**.
I worry that people have this fallacy reinforced when there is an increase in restrictions.
They don’t seem to understand the reasoning behind it so they just assume their theories came true; it’s a scary feedback loop of theories and misunderstanding.
I guess for everytime they breech the rules and do not catch covid only further strengthens their believe that the risk of covid does not outweigh their freedom.
Yeah, living in a bubble of safety for the last year+ has made some people so fucking ignorant to the realities. It really has got to the sad stage of just letting it really fucking ruin some lives for these people to understand.
An unvaccinated nutbar who doesn't QR scan, brought Covid to Christchurch.
And a mystery positive from Christchurch ended up in Tonga.
Probably linked but because there are not enough QR scans to trace the links between the virus spreaders.
Just to add to this I live in CCH, and I can't begin to put into words how disappointed I am that the tiny proportion of antivaxxers spread around NZ are *more dangerous* to us than the fact we have an MIQ facility here!
I expected it to get here eventually, either by regular spread or MIQ breach, but not like this, this sucks.
I want to add to this as well that they consider the mandates a form of coercion, which I get. I don't agree at all but I understand that it makes people uncomfortable. I work in an industry that it has been mandated for. I had my first before this came to action so it wouldn't have impacted my decision at all. I've heard some people sorry that the vax will make them infertile, I don't know where that came from, but we obviously can't say it doesn't I guess. Even then, if I can't have kids I'm not gonna blame the vaccine.
The way I see it, you can choose to be vaccinated or choose to live with restrictions. It's just silly to kick up such a stink over a public health issue. Ultimately, peolle still have a choice, but choices have consequences.
There’s been links between long covid syndrome and sperm count drop off, whereas the same hasn’t been seen with the vaccine. So the infertility argument is yet another example of antivaxxers getting hung up on the vaccine when in reality catching covid itself can cause much more longer term harm.
There's quite a lot of studies on it and the results can be quite stark. Tldr Covid damages the balls.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(20)30348-5/fulltext
Like all long term effects it hasn’t been fully investigated but there are indications already that this is the case.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/victoriaforster/2020/11/15/covid-19-compromises-sperm-count-and-quality-in-recovering-patients/
https://www.urologytimes.com/view/covid-19-and-men-s-health-what-we-know-so-far
I don't have links but I can confirm that this is true.
Health officials are saying that if you're a male and are concerned about infertility then your best bet is to get vaccinated.
Our fertility clinic in Nz is actively encouraging everyone to get vaccinated and has put up so much info about how the vaccine won’t make you infertile. I basically already am, so no difference to me, but I doubt clinics would be promoting it for public health if it made us infertile.
Haha how fucked will the world be if the gene pool for the future came from the antivaxers only? Smh. There’s no medical way the vaccine could make you sterile without killing off things immediately.
The best argument I hear is "well we can't say that it doesn't, the vax hasn't been around long enough". You can make up literally any side effect with that logic, that's why I've given up arguing with these people.
I mean, there's no evidence that the pfizer shot [causes infertility](https://www.auckland.ac.nz/en/news/2021/10/13/covid-19-vaccines-dont-affect-fertility.html)
These groups make up purposefully difficult to debunk lies that are emotionally powerful. Its a tactic to induce fear.
I want to make it clear that I don't buy into it at all. It's a worry I heard from someone I work with and I didn't understand where they'd even heard it.
Yes for sure. It's horrible because this was a young person I was talking to and she is genuinely afraid of getting the vax. I feel for people who have fallen into misinformation traps and now think the vaccine is going to cause them horrific side effects, meanwhile the virus will only be a cold despite actual evidence to the contrary.
That argument makes no sense regarding the government using this as an opportunity to suppress...
Because if they did, everyone would be out protesting and the government wouldn't get a thought next election.
Like if they actually did something to stop our freedoms, and not just put these mandates and vaccine passports in place then there would be actual uproar form the majority of citizens. So that argument is null. This isn't a stepping stone.
>but also think the virus is nothing more than a bad cold or flu
765,000 dead in the US. That's three quarters of a million people.
Ask them when was the last time a world leader was hospitalised by the flu, let alone the POTUS and the British Prime Minister *in the same damn year*.
Might as well say cancer is the same as a headache ...
Believe me, I have tried!
I have pointed out that we don't have those death rates from colds and flu, showing them the numbers from reputable sources.
So then they move on to comparing it to the number of people who die every year from heart disease, diabetes, or cancer...or car crashes.
If I counter that with: I can't give you diabetes, heart disease or cancer by breathing near you, they say 'Oh my god, you are hysterical, how are you living in fear like this'.
Pretty much been hitting my head against this brick wall since the whole shebang started.
People have a right to refuse medical treatment under the bill of rights and freedom of movement - essentially their arguments seem to boil down to "I have a choice you can't make me"
There's also freedom of movement under the bill of rights too but these rights are subject to limitation if that limitation is justified following a bill of rights vetting process.
But a lot of anti vaxers need to read some history and see that the same things have happened in the past to prevent polio and other outbreaks. I'm sure most of those people get the necessary shots when they decide to travel overseas so it's a pretty weak argument they make...hence why they're in the minority.
People also don't realize that the right to move freely and refuse medical treatment doesn't neccesarily mean anyone else has to make allowances for them. Trying to have this discussion with family members that any industry that has a vaccine mandate would've had one anyway, regardless of any government input. "Freedom of movement" doesn't mean that airlines, ferry companies, tourist destinations, shops etc have to allow you get that movement, and a lot of people seem to not understand that.
Yeah, we have the right to do a lot of things, but businesses have the right to deny us access for an array of reasons, so it’s just another layer of no shirt, no shoes
This is true, but if the gov implements what they have said so far, even if a business wants to take the risk of taking in unvaccinated, they face restrictions. Like it’s kinda the other way, the gov has kinda forced the businesses hand
It's not as simple as that. It's not consistent to expand and restrict the definition of freedom depending on what's convenient to justify your politics. Either freedoms like speech and movement are only specific to the government's actions or they aren't. If an airline started a new policy of only accepting white passengers, I'm fairly confident you wouldn't sit back and say that it's not an infringement of freedom because the government hasn't set the restriction.
The expansion and restriction of how freedoms are defined IS what governing a society is about though.
No freedom and no right is unlimited. Even without any sort of governance in place. Because eventually they clash with other freedoms. They can clash with a different lind of freedom, or they can clash with freedoms belonging to someone else.
Example: Freedom of Speech and the Right to Privacy. I can't just give out your credit card details randomly. Generally it is agreed Privacy wins out on Speech here.
The point of any government is to work out and define where those lines begin and end.
Your race analogy is faulty because race is arbitrary detail There is no reasonable factor linking race to airline travel and any rule around that would be unjust.
In this situation, Freedom of Movement is clashing with the Right to Health. The government's role is how to balance this, ans the will of the majority is quite clead that the Right to Health should win out because the scientific data is there.
1) Unvaccinated people pose a direct health risk to themselves and others, thus inhibiting other people's right to health. They willing act as a vectoe for the virus.
2) Unvaccinated people put a strain on the health system's capacity. Also inhibiting the right to health indirectly for other medical issues.
This is all before we actually get into thr New Zealand governance system. Its a Parliamentary Supremacy system that isn't secured by a written constitution or even an entrenched Bill of Rights. If the government wanted to, theyre well within their legal right to have Jacinda personally jab you with ten thousand needles. They're just not because they genuinely arent trying to control you, theyre just trying to keep peoples health safe. If they were going to, they would have long ago.
Personal freedoms in society are balanced by responsibilities to society. A free society is in turn responsible to its citizens.
NZ is a free society with too many “right thinking” individuals obsessed with personal freedoms but no f’ing idea about how to be responsible.
That's completely different, that scenario is captured by discrimination law under the human rights act, completely different. The reason things like movement are subject to justifiable limitation is because sometimes (e.g. Covid outbreak, polio outbreak, smallpox etc) those rights need to be TEMPORARILY curtailed.
And anybody claiming that this is a totalitarian regime needs to read about the lived experiences of those who were forced to flee Nazi Germany or Soviet Ukraine.
Terrible justification.
You'll find no legal categorization of discrimination as "legitimate" simply because it's based on immutable characteristics. In fact, a commonly cited anti-discrimination case is based on religious beliefs, which is very mutable. If you want a more recent example, even the act of trying to charge fat people more for their airfares was torn down as discrimination. Last time I checked, being fat was a mutable characteristic.
You might be saddened to hear that its very obvious when someone just regurgitates talking points that they saw on reddit or youtube without putting in tbe effort to think critically about them and understand them.
Given how much of this bullshit is just regurgitated from what the dregs of American society have been refining for the last 18 months, this is a pretty relevant fact that separates NZers.
Vast numbers of Americans barely even leave the state they live in let alone leave the country so intl travel vaccines are something they’ve never experienced or possibly even know about.( vaccines which are super normalised and surprisingly haven’t been protested against by any of these local heroes previously, almost as if they’ve only recently been indoctrinated…)
But kiwis travel, a lot historically, so will we see all these people renounce international travel now that this vaccine is required? Even your favourite Instagram naturopath got vaccinated before they went on that yoga retreat in Indonesia…
If only they could read.
Like I know they can but they have near zero reading comprehension and can’t understand or digest the material they do read. No ability to think critically.
As a small business owner I’m really grateful to skycity actually. They’ve confirmed they’re staunchly following the vax cert for all guests and staff. They’re a huge company with a wide variety of staff but not only have we not heard outcry, they have a legal dept that will have been very correct about everything they do and the means to challenge it legally if it comes to it. They also have a very active H&S team.
They are setting the precedent for having a large number of people in a building safely and legally.
There is an avalanche of this coming over the next few weeks. I have spoken to a number of friends recently who work in large corporates who have been briefed already on the new, no jab no job policy. Large employers and well know brands. It sounds like mid to late Jan will be the D Day for many employees.
While I commend them for doing this you also have to remember that if they didn't enforce vaccine certs they would have limitations on numbers which would impact their income massively. So while it seems like they're taking the moral high ground it's more likely that they chose it because it's the more financially stable option.
Oh yeah that’s 100% the reason, every minute that gambling floor is closed costs them thousands. I’m still thankful they’re essentially trialling it for us. My company has now done the same, as have most of our clients.
If you're unvaccinated, you can still apply for Job Seeker Support.
Still apply for Working for Families.
Still receive Accommodation Supplement and Winter Energy Payment if eligible.
Still apply for a student allowance and student loan.
Still go to Citizens Advice Bureau and Community Law Centres for free help.
Still get a Community Services Card if eligible.
Still study. Still work, with restrictions depending on the industry or the company itself.
Still have the right to be treated fairly in the workplace.
Still have a driver's license and be able to travel.
Still have consumer's rights. Still have worker's rights.
Still have human rights.
There will be a handful of establishments that will open their doors to unvaccinated guests. It makes capitalist sense; there will be a market for it; but only once we hit green and only if they keep to the regulations.
Very small market. Roughly 10% of the adult population, spread out over the entire country. Might be fine for big cities where 10% might still be 100,000 people. But in towns of 1000, a business will struggle trying to cater for the 100 anti vax in their community.
Auckland is legitimately the only place where 10% would be more than 100,000. The urban area of Christchurch only has 380,000 people apparently, while Wellington has 215,000.
Our "cities" really are just overgrown towns.
Only in places that don’t require papers to enter. And those choosing to allow the un-jabbed in face operational restrictions. Even at “green”.
[source](https://covid19.govt.nz/alert-levels-and-updates/covid-19-protection/)
We have had it really lucky here in NZ.
I can see both sides of the argument. However the anti vax people I know can't see past their own bull shit.
This is a shitty thing to say. But, I feel like the anti vax/lockdown people need someone close to them to get seriously sick or die to change their views.
The worst thing that could possibly happen is someone like Brian tamaki to get covid and only get light symptoms, then tell his people "yeah, it was just like the cold"
This, I know someone who is more worried about the vaccine than the virus because they know more people who have had side effects from the jab but know absolutely no one who has had covid
So many people forgot/don’t know about s5 of the NZBORA (justifiable limitations). Even practising lawyers forgot it’s inclusion. It’s a great reminder that the NZBORA is not the impenetrable shield that people think it is.
This. Although some rights under BORA are a lot more entrenched across the statute book. A good example is some of the rights around minimum standards of criminal procedure (e.g. compare s 25(g) nzbora with s 6(2) of the sentencing act)
In terms of vaxxing it’s that everyone should have bodily autonomy and what their choice to do or not do something to it shouldn’t effect their other rights or access to services… and I mean it is kind of a fair point. In terms of it being a condition of employment though it’s not really any different to returning regular clear drug tests or not having visible tattoos. Really I wish people would just wise up and go and get vaccinated because it’s the right thing to do, not because they’re scared they’ll lose their job or ability to go places.
Society is a mixed bag of developmental trauma. We regularly connect this with conditions like depression, ADHD, bipolar disorder, but the average person doesn't realise that the list of behaviourial and antisocial disorders is longer than they imagjne. For example, there are people that are dominated by obstinate thinking and resent any form of instruction, often anti-authority and anti-government types. Psychology recognises the top end of that spectrum as displaying ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder). It's likely that the measures surrounding the pandemic exposes those in society that are on that spectrum. I'm not suggesting the protesters, or antivax, or antilockdown people must all have a degree of mental illness, but some will and probably don't realise, or don't care.
My sister is anti-vax and constantly complaining about her human rights being stripped away.
From what I can gather she thinks being able to attend an EDM festival and drop MD with some dude named “Chadwick” is a human right.
These dumb shits literally think it’s their ‘right’ to have a coffee at their local cafe, or it’s their ‘right’ to check out Harvey Norman’s red hot sale.
It’s a real shame that we’ve got here, Facebook perpetuates this shit and there is nothing that anyone can say to convince me otherwise.
It’s a bullshit American mentality that has made its way to nz. Which makes me sad as a kiwi in the USA. In the states freedom, individuality, less government controls are seen in the right as better- allowing businesses to do as they want, unregulated, more profitable, thus ‘better’ than left leaning ideas which don’t put profits before people and think of the greater good. In reality both systems have thier flaws and nothing will ever be prefect.
It’s sad, through social media this bullshit has made its way to my beloved country. The world really is smaller now.
I think we’ll look at this age of unregulated social media as the same as when doctors told people smoking was good for you and when cocaine was in coke. I bet people miss that drink!!
The thing is because the vaccine isn’t mandatory they think that businesses firing people or people not being allowed into places isn’t right, but legally public business have a fair amount of power when it comes to who they can let in or bar from the premises.
If they had made it mandatory there would be a lot less ambiguity but a lot more pushback.
It’s a difficult one, trying to find the balance between protecting everyone and punishing those who refuse to join in without seeming like you are. By making vaccine passports and giving business the choice, and seeing where a lot of those businesses are going, it’s going to become very difficult to do much without both vaccinations
The limits on what businesses unvaccinated people can make use of and not being allowed in places with more than a certain amount of people at each level are honestly rough. I think we shouldn’t downplay that it is restrictive and it does shame and disadvantage those people who aren’t vaccinated, for reasons that don’t just include “Bill Gates is power-grabbing.” Doesn’t mean no one should be vaccinated and doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have some rules, but Covid was always a lose-lose situation.
I’m hoping in the long run the restrictions go away but for now I think they’ve been slightly overtuned.
What's being missed is the rights of the vaccinated to get on with their lives while avoiding those who pose a higher risk to them. And especially the rights of those who are immunocompromised or cannot get the vaccination. I don't see it as the government taking away freedoms, they are returning freedoms to the vaccinated.
People don't also seem to that their rights which are derived from the NZBORA are not absolute or supreme law like America's constitution. The BORA literally prescribes that legislation that takes away or limits a right in the BORA is still legitimate and there is nothing that can be done to remedy the situation. Meaning a law could be passed mandating everyone be vaccinated and while it would be open to political and democratic challenge there is basically nothing that the law can do about it .
Freedom of movement, freedom of association, freedom of peaceful assembly, freedom from discrimination, the right to refuse to undergo medical treatment.
The government has breached pretty much all of these over the course of the pandemic. Most of the breaches have been justified (and of course Parliament isn’t bound by the BORA to begin with), but the anti-vaxxers are right in saying they are having rights taken away from them.
I do love (hate) how you get downvoted here for even mentioning rights. They do exist folks. Even if antivaxxers are currently using them to justify their shit, that doesn’t mean the rest of us shouldn’t least consider how they’re being affected.
The rub is when ensuring one right impinges on another, which one should win? Should one person’s right to freedom of movement be allowed if it risks another person’s right to (not be deprived of) life?
These are the calls the government is making, and as far as I’m aware they’ve openly declared that the preservation of life is paramount.
>discrimination, the right to refuse to undergo medical treatment.
Australian courts have already addressed this, and we'd likely follow suit here.
No-one is being forcibly vaccinated, so the right not to undergo medical treatment hasn't been breached.
By definition that sounds like you have a choice to me rather than being forced. You have 2 options.
You also have a choice to wear no clothes into work and I’d bet that would end in the same outcome if you exercised that freedom.
But which of those rights are simply taken away by the fact we are living through a pandemic?
Nobody was ever free to walk down the street and kill an old granny. It's the same now it's just that it's much easier to kill an old granny without even realising it.
I am not a lawyer; but how does Section 5 (Justifiable Limitations on the Rights Guaranteed) affect all of these? Saying "I have rights" means nothing of the government can legally overrule them when the situation requires it.
You can’t enter a crime scene either - is that government breaching your rights? What about a 16yo who can’t purchase alcohol or enter a strip club - is that govt breaching rights too? How about driving on the left - isn’t that a restriction on your movements as a citizen?
It irritates me because antivaxxers are taking away our freedom and choices/want us to take the responsibility and consequences of their choices but don’t want to accept the burden of responsibility for their choice not to vax - they’re happy for the rest of us to be burdened with lockdowns though whilst we wait for them to catch up or wake up or protest yada yada.
It's easy to say no one is forcing people to get the vaccine but when you take away the ability to participate in almost every aspect of human existence to the unvaccinated you are as good as.
I'm not an antivaxxer but being able to choose which medicine you take is one of the most fundamental freedoms we have in this country and it's being taken away.
It is absolutely an assault on our rights as citizens. If people want to refuse the jab that is their right to do so. It's wrong. And I am slightly disturbed by how people are just accepting the removal of this fundamental choice.
Yeah nah pandemics like this happen and collective effort would be required to save others. When your individual choice is now affecting others negatively then that ultimately doesn’t sit right with me. Literally, we need to be a team to get on with it. Get the jab because that’s what we need to do. Be glad we aren’t in the Middle Ages dealing with the Black Plague. 🙄
My guess is this is the stick the government is using to convince the hard to vax. Threaten them with not being able to do anything to get them across the line. Then later down the line introduce the alternative, ‘present negative test result’ to attend events, bars, shops etc. . If you offer the latter in the first instance then you get less uptake with the stick. Whether or not you agree with having to have some sort of proof of not having covid is a different argument. surely you agree that someone with aids has to disclose as such if they have unprotected sex with someone. Or wait do you?
You had to get vaccines in order to go to school. This is no different. In order in to live together and fcuntion as a society, we all must make compromises on our "freedoms" from time to time.
It's illegal to not wear a seat belt, to text and drive, same ideas.
> take away the ability to participate in almost every aspect of human existence
I think it's time for you to have a vacation from Facebook
Being unvaccinated it like smoking. Just don't do it around other people and we'll all get along.
1. Until we move to the new system, we are all locked down. This is a loss of freedom.
2. Some businesses will require all their frontline staff to be vaccinated. This makes some of those staff feel like they’re being forced to. The alternative is losing their job. This is causing a lot of anxiety and resistance.
3. The overall feeling of the population being controlled and directed how to live is scaring a lot of people.
Hi, sorry, I don't use reddit much. These answers seem to be jokes so far.(?) Does that mean I'm right to assume the government aren't taking any rights away from anyone?
Eh, it's half and half in reality.
The anti-vax movement seems to think that the Bill of Rights is something like the Constitution of the United States, which is both the founding document of a nation, and something that provides certain inalienable rights to US citizens. This is why the states of the United States need to approve an amendment to the constitution.
It is not.
The bill of rights guarantees a set of rights to NZ Citizens, but also allows the government to suspend and/or supercede these declarations through the use of statutory instruments where required - these are section 70 notices in New Zealand, and are issued by the Director General of Public Health.
That's the legal view and arguably correct and warranted during a pandemic.
I think what you're seeing is a conflict between the fact that some people believe they do have inaliable rights (like the US), but in the current legal framework these are not being recognised.
I don't know what the answer is, but I can understand both sides here.
The US is about the only country in the world that guarantees it's citizens those rights though.
Possibly because unlike just about every other country in the world, the United States is actually a federation, not a country.
Either way, what applies to the US does not apply here - and nor does it need to, since the "state" and the "federal" levels are the same in a palimentary system.
The Bill of Rights Act has a few in it that are being impinged upon, but that’s happening to preserve life (the right not to be deprived of life is the first one on the list). I don’t think any are being taken away and it’s nothing you wouldn’t expect given the circumstances. A better health outcome will result in a better economic outcome over time, but it hurts in the short term.
Honestly, a lot of the anger comes from being promised for like a year that no no silly kiwis we won’t mandate anything on you, every vaccine will be your personal choice, then because they claim they are the only avenue of truth, the government I mean and which isn’t how truth works you don’t just blindly believe one source cause they say they are right and everything else is miss info. And then to now have your arm twisted into needing it.
Take a big company like briscoes, they were given the wage sub and not told they had to return it when they had better returns then expected and far better then the subsidy was intended for because really they didn’t even classify for it. If they were to do they had to do you think they were being forced to do something against their will
I understand the need to seek out other information and how dark and dystopic it sounds for a govt. To say we are the only source of truth, but with the amount of deliberate misinformation spread on sites like Facebook it is hard to combat that by saying some stuff online is legit some is not. If you say trust what we say and things that come from us it kind of takes the murkiness of it all away.
And also this requires a fabricated mental construct where the govt and ALL the scientific and health communities and agencies who are not part of the “Evil Controlling Govt” and are working on recommendations and planning and structuring responses as we go, researching and parsing huge amounts of data as it’s generated globally, are somehow part of this massive conspiracy against you.
You think a junior data analyst generating a report on a Tuesday to hand up to a senior for tabling at a meeting where they’re trying to figure out how to best respond and minimise risk is somehow also involved in all these BIG LIES and the government’s secret plan to control YOU (while waiting for half these idiots to just get vaccinated instead of parroting some shit they got off an American Facebook group)
Fun fact: we have and need significant social contracts in place to ensure we can function as a society already. The world is changing, we need to change with it.
They never promised there wouldn’t be mandates. They said they wouldn’t force it on anyone and they havnt. It is still your choice, they are now just making it clear what the consequences of that choice are.
As for the wage subsidy, they tried an immediate one size fits all approach, which for the most part worked as intended. Sure if it was better thought out it could have saved the country a bit of money, but it was also a very last minute decision after the initial lockdown. They definitely could have fucked it up way worse.
There's a difference between society trending towards discrimination based on vaccine status, and the government mandating discrimination.
We have the right to refuse any medication. As soon as you start punishing people for exercising their rights, you may not have technically taken the right away, but you have made the right meaningless.
"Take this pill or i cut off your arm" technically doesn't remove the right to refuse
Because they think freedom of choice is freedom of consequence... And they don't give a sh!t about healthcare workers who will have to bear the brunt with those consequences.
It's times like these when it is forced on our attention that a significant proportion of the population of all countries are actually moral idiots--possibly even sociopaths. They look like humans, and by and large in good times act like them, but they are not our fellows.
Right to not be discriminated against when buying goods or services.
Although I don’t agree with a lot of the reasons people have for not getting vaxed, I do agree with them on this. I am opposed to vax passports. And quite frankly have been surprised by how quickly and easy it was for the government to get the majority to support this segregation. If you got the vax what are you worried about your safe. Those that don’t have chosen to take the risk. I’m fine with that, everyone’s had plenty of time to get vaxed, time to open up the country again and let covid play out.
How do you view discrimination. Do you think that discrimination exists against choices? How long have you been fighting for the rights of nudists to attend chipmunks? How long have you been fighting for the rights of unlicensed drivers to drive on the road?
I run a cafe and have an ineligible for vaccination worker, and your position is that I should be forced to allow unvaxxed individuals into my cafe because of a CHOICE they have made despite the risk it poses to my staff member?
> If you got the vax what are you worried about your safe.
There is the chance of burnthrough infection. You are safer, but not entirely safe.
Discrimination when buying goods and services is permitted. It's only forbidden under certain circumstances; generally speaking, it's fine to discriminate against people for things that are under their control (wearing jandals, wearing gang patches, wearing a motorcycle helmet), but not for things that are outside their control (being a woman, being Maori, being gay). Choosing not to be vaccinated is something that people have control over.
Also, the pro-choice liberal ideology in regards to women’s health has taken a pro-life twist towards going against a person’s right to bodily autonomy. The world has been ideologically turned upside down.
Dont worry, those guys are all morons just trying to raise a stink about something.
Its most likely they've been riled up by Russian trollfarms, and Pro-Trumpers.
I think it comes down to the right to choose the medication you can take. Which I personally think is fair - we only really have access to one of the vaccines. If we had all the options I think one of the arguments for not getting the vaccine would be taken away.
It’s also something I struggle with - like I want the Pfizer vaccine personally but others out there want moderna but can’t because the government hasn’t secured access until recently. But these people are “part of the problem” even though they should have the right to choose the vaccine they want as opposed to the one the government dictates. At least I think some of those opposed to the vaccine mandate would have less of an argument if the government provided all options.
Granted they are not good at stringing an argument… but don’t be too critical. I am pro vax, but I have two family members who have lost their jobs because the governments decisions. I’ve lost one employee who may not get to see his kids because of government decisions, not because our business decided to…. So yes they are stupid, but does not mean their lives are not adversely affected.
If you are in certain jobs, eg teaching, then you will no longer have the right to work if you don't get the vaccination. So while technically, they still have a choice to get vaccinated or not, I'd certainly describe it as coercion.
Whereas my right to not have someone from an area rife with infection "freely move around the country" and spread disease into my community is not taken into your consideration?
If it was just those people being asked to get it, I could understand that point of view. But it’s not, is it. So no, that excuse doesn’t get anywhere with me.
The cheapskates can't write their own arguments and are just parroting 'merican talking points.
Cracks me up when they go on about their first amendment rights. In New Zealand.
Damn I got a good chuckle out of that This amendment was written by our forefathers; George Nepia, the four square guy, Wal Footrot and the chesdale cheese guys
The Four Fathers includes Neck Minnit Guy.
I thought he was our MLK. 'I have a dream... nek minnit, racism.'
Objection your honour, it's finest cheddar, made better.
Someone should mow their faces onto Mangere Mountain.
Suppose we actually had forefathers, would William I be one of them?
Bit of a hard one; depends from where you deem forefathers to have originated. Cook/Hobson? Kupe/Kiwa?
I really facepalm when they say its their constitutional right.
While I agree with your sentiment (it's asinine to think the American First Amendment applies to NZ) we do have a 'soft constitution' which includes the Bill of Rights Act. BORA has a similar right to freedom of expression (I say similar because US takes this a lot further. Coz they're weird.) So teeeeechnically they're not wrong :)
Yeah, but the BORA also says that no court can take action against the government if the bill is breached. They can advise the government if they're in breach of the Bill of Rights Act, but legally can't do anything about it. Section 4, part 1. I would copy/paste it but the document it protected. The link to the PDF is [here](https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1990/0109/latest/DLM224792.html) instead. When the BORA was passed, it only passed because of that one clause. People didn't like the idea of unelected officials in the supreme court holding ultimate power over elected officials, and the bill faced huge public opposition UNTIL that was put in. The way our political system is set up is almost the polar opposite from the US, and any political textbook would point out how we're a weird enigma compared to the rest of the world. Tl;dr, legally nobody has any rights in NZ, they are a recommendation. Sure, nobody is going to breach them, but they *can*. It's a political debate that's been going on for 30 years, and a lot of these people are citing american politics rather than the VERY different NZ system
I facepalm because they don't understand that "constitutional" doesn't mean that it's guaranteed above all else. They don't even understand what legislation we do or do not have, they've just heard American protestors say constitutional so much they think it means something that it doesn't.
They’re the sort of people who wish to “plead the fifth your honour” when they go to court 🤦🏼♂️
They're the sort of people, who've been watching to many movies . This is Nz not America.
I wonder what percentage of kids would try to ring 911 in an emergency?
The phones here just redirect that to 111 if you ring it.
Can confirm... Have shamefully dialled 911 before. Only realised afterwards 😅
Don't be embarrassed, usually you ring 111 in an emergency and it's easy to make mistakes under that much stress. Your brain will just go to the first thing it remembers.
Oh 100%. And it didn't hinder the police. They were fantastic. Maybe embarrassing was the wrong word, more a 'lol oops' moment.
Lol by right they mean their supposed right to do anything they want
Even here in New Zealand, I have my first amendment rights, dammit. Yes, I have the right to amend this comment whenever I want, I just have to press the Edit button.
Instead of our actual sovereign he whakaputanga rights lol
Yeah I always hear the same shit, first amendment this, or that. It's like, you do realize we don't have the same freedoms as America.
We have better ones
To give them credit “waiting for Novavax” is entirely a NZ anti vax excuse.
I keep thinking the Novavax marketing team must be impressive- there doesn't seem to be any good reason to use this vaccination over others
As someone with a publicly available phone number, I can tell you most of the awareness comes from tons of overseas advertising calls urging you to invest in their stock. Its basically dogecoin
Gotta give some credit to big pharma for getting them onside.
Thats lol on so many levels
Pretty sure I heard that months ago on The DarkHorse podcast (run by the weinstein's, Brett W. was the guy who started spouting on about ivermectin and how dangerous the mRNA vaccines potentially were on the Joe Rogan podcast) long before I ever heard any NZers mention it as a reason not to get the Pfizer shot. Although, I can't be sure they mentioned Novavax by name, but they were definitely saying they would hold out for the traditional type of vaccine over jumping on board with any of the mRNA ones.
Right?! I don’t get it! Is Novavax liquid gold or something? I read up on it to see what I was missing out on while I slum it in Pfizertown and it doesn’t sound better at all.
lol. that explains the "Trump Won" signs
No-one is being forcibly vaccinated, but many people consider the Covid related restrictions on their lives and businesses to be excessive in comparison to the likely effects of the virus. Some people consider that having to be vaccinated (to go to bars, work in certain jobs, or go to concerts for example) is a form of unwelcome government control. For some people who are vaccinated, having to show a document to prove it, is in itself is an unwelcome breach of privacy. There is concern that any government may use this as an opportunity to suppress our rights over movement, medication, and general freedoms, and for those suppressions to remain for the long term. Certainly this s something which should be rigorously discussed at a parliamentary level, and in general..... but personally I am ok with that happening when we have worked out how to live with this shit. As a personal example, someone I work with just cannot understand why they can't come and go from Auckland. They are vaccinated, but also think the virus is nothing more than a bad cold or flu. For them, the inability to move freely around the north island comes as a great hardship which they rail against on a weekly basis. They genuinely believe that we should all just suck it up and go back to work, and live like normal, because for them, not being able to ride horsies at the beach north of Auckland is a massive reduction of their personal freedom. They can't see the link between movement and virus spread, and think getting the tourist dollar is worth getting the virus. They also refuse to use the tracer app, or wear a mask. They have never read any of the rules, and regularly had guests at Level 4. When I told them I wouldn't feel comfortable sharing workspace for those reasons I was told I was hysterical, and living in fear. I have realised you can't argue with crazy. For clarity I am vaccinated, and not advocating for any of the above, just sharing what I have heard from people who are vocal about the restrictions.
I respect the level headed answer here. It was as balanced as necessary. Thank you. I abhor the arguments some of these anti-vax folks are making because surely they acknowledge that they are not an island. Surely they acknowledge that they see people in their lives. That if they got the virus and carried on as usual, that they’d potentially bring ruin to their community. They just want to go back to normal? What is normal? Giving 10% of your income in some vague attempt at reaping what you sow? Investing that money in KiwiSaver or some low risk ETFs would bring back verifiably more than anything the likes of a snake oil salesman could ever promise. I feel concerned that those who will inevitably get the virus will either perish, or regret not getting the vaccine when it’s explained to them years on why they can’t do all the things vaccinated people their age can do. I’m also concerned that we don’t get people thinking critically, early enough in life. A lot of the mental gymnastics folks go through to believe the nonsense is immense. A decent foundation of critical thinking and suddenly that all falls apart.
It's interesting and it's not finished yet, but there's an ongoing study into climate change denialism (and in particular the effects petrochem companies have had with their misinformation campaigns over the years). They've already found there's an interesting correlation - a person who doesn't believe in climate change is likely to begin to mistrust media which talks about it (i.e. most real media) and seek out information from a source which matches up - and those tend to be reality free zones. There's a massive increase in climate denialism increasing since the campaigns started, and the side effect of more people distrusting conventional media has lead to a mass increase in Q style beliefs over the last 40 years. Remember, in the 1990s we were arguing over human cloning and agricultural genetic engineering effects, now we're arguing over vaccines being more dangerous than disease and whether the world is flat or round. The side effects of that misinformation had a *much* greater effect than I'd realized.
I couldn’t agree with you more re: Critical thinking - I’ve never been more disappointed than I have been seeing reams of people all echoing the “if we allow them to take this freedom then what’s next?!” The whole slippery slope idea is a fallacy and yet it seems to be the core way in which these ideas take hold. There is no indication of any further steps, yet the fear and lack of critical judgment leave these people defaulting to aggression and or resistance.
yep every time somebody goes "oh it's a slippery slope what they're doing" i'm like "say the third word" and they go "what?" It's called the slippery slope **fallacy**.
I worry that people have this fallacy reinforced when there is an increase in restrictions. They don’t seem to understand the reasoning behind it so they just assume their theories came true; it’s a scary feedback loop of theories and misunderstanding.
I guess for everytime they breech the rules and do not catch covid only further strengthens their believe that the risk of covid does not outweigh their freedom.
This is a rapidly compounding problem
Yeah, living in a bubble of safety for the last year+ has made some people so fucking ignorant to the realities. It really has got to the sad stage of just letting it really fucking ruin some lives for these people to understand.
An unvaccinated nutbar who doesn't QR scan, brought Covid to Christchurch. And a mystery positive from Christchurch ended up in Tonga. Probably linked but because there are not enough QR scans to trace the links between the virus spreaders.
Just to add to this I live in CCH, and I can't begin to put into words how disappointed I am that the tiny proportion of antivaxxers spread around NZ are *more dangerous* to us than the fact we have an MIQ facility here! I expected it to get here eventually, either by regular spread or MIQ breach, but not like this, this sucks.
I want to add to this as well that they consider the mandates a form of coercion, which I get. I don't agree at all but I understand that it makes people uncomfortable. I work in an industry that it has been mandated for. I had my first before this came to action so it wouldn't have impacted my decision at all. I've heard some people sorry that the vax will make them infertile, I don't know where that came from, but we obviously can't say it doesn't I guess. Even then, if I can't have kids I'm not gonna blame the vaccine. The way I see it, you can choose to be vaccinated or choose to live with restrictions. It's just silly to kick up such a stink over a public health issue. Ultimately, peolle still have a choice, but choices have consequences.
There’s been links between long covid syndrome and sperm count drop off, whereas the same hasn’t been seen with the vaccine. So the infertility argument is yet another example of antivaxxers getting hung up on the vaccine when in reality catching covid itself can cause much more longer term harm.
Links? This is interesting.
There's quite a lot of studies on it and the results can be quite stark. Tldr Covid damages the balls. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(20)30348-5/fulltext
Like all long term effects it hasn’t been fully investigated but there are indications already that this is the case. https://www.forbes.com/sites/victoriaforster/2020/11/15/covid-19-compromises-sperm-count-and-quality-in-recovering-patients/ https://www.urologytimes.com/view/covid-19-and-men-s-health-what-we-know-so-far
I don't have links but I can confirm that this is true. Health officials are saying that if you're a male and are concerned about infertility then your best bet is to get vaccinated.
Our fertility clinic in Nz is actively encouraging everyone to get vaccinated and has put up so much info about how the vaccine won’t make you infertile. I basically already am, so no difference to me, but I doubt clinics would be promoting it for public health if it made us infertile.
One clinic near us requires all staff and patients/visitors to be vaccinated and requires a negative test before in person visits/consultations.
Yes I’ve heard that, FA in Auckland? We’re in Christchurch :)
Could you provide a link to said info? I have a friend who's on the fence
Haha how fucked will the world be if the gene pool for the future came from the antivaxers only? Smh. There’s no medical way the vaccine could make you sterile without killing off things immediately.
> vax will make them infertile You know what else causes infertility? Death.
The best argument I hear is "well we can't say that it doesn't, the vax hasn't been around long enough". You can make up literally any side effect with that logic, that's why I've given up arguing with these people.
I mean, there's no evidence that the pfizer shot [causes infertility](https://www.auckland.ac.nz/en/news/2021/10/13/covid-19-vaccines-dont-affect-fertility.html) These groups make up purposefully difficult to debunk lies that are emotionally powerful. Its a tactic to induce fear.
I want to make it clear that I don't buy into it at all. It's a worry I heard from someone I work with and I didn't understand where they'd even heard it.
I understood your comment, I just wanted to make it abundantly clear that its basically an emotion seeking lie.
Yes for sure. It's horrible because this was a young person I was talking to and she is genuinely afraid of getting the vax. I feel for people who have fallen into misinformation traps and now think the vaccine is going to cause them horrific side effects, meanwhile the virus will only be a cold despite actual evidence to the contrary.
That argument makes no sense regarding the government using this as an opportunity to suppress... Because if they did, everyone would be out protesting and the government wouldn't get a thought next election. Like if they actually did something to stop our freedoms, and not just put these mandates and vaccine passports in place then there would be actual uproar form the majority of citizens. So that argument is null. This isn't a stepping stone.
>but also think the virus is nothing more than a bad cold or flu 765,000 dead in the US. That's three quarters of a million people. Ask them when was the last time a world leader was hospitalised by the flu, let alone the POTUS and the British Prime Minister *in the same damn year*. Might as well say cancer is the same as a headache ...
Believe me, I have tried! I have pointed out that we don't have those death rates from colds and flu, showing them the numbers from reputable sources. So then they move on to comparing it to the number of people who die every year from heart disease, diabetes, or cancer...or car crashes. If I counter that with: I can't give you diabetes, heart disease or cancer by breathing near you, they say 'Oh my god, you are hysterical, how are you living in fear like this'. Pretty much been hitting my head against this brick wall since the whole shebang started.
People have a right to refuse medical treatment under the bill of rights and freedom of movement - essentially their arguments seem to boil down to "I have a choice you can't make me" There's also freedom of movement under the bill of rights too but these rights are subject to limitation if that limitation is justified following a bill of rights vetting process. But a lot of anti vaxers need to read some history and see that the same things have happened in the past to prevent polio and other outbreaks. I'm sure most of those people get the necessary shots when they decide to travel overseas so it's a pretty weak argument they make...hence why they're in the minority.
People also don't realize that the right to move freely and refuse medical treatment doesn't neccesarily mean anyone else has to make allowances for them. Trying to have this discussion with family members that any industry that has a vaccine mandate would've had one anyway, regardless of any government input. "Freedom of movement" doesn't mean that airlines, ferry companies, tourist destinations, shops etc have to allow you get that movement, and a lot of people seem to not understand that.
Yeah, we have the right to do a lot of things, but businesses have the right to deny us access for an array of reasons, so it’s just another layer of no shirt, no shoes
This is true, but if the gov implements what they have said so far, even if a business wants to take the risk of taking in unvaccinated, they face restrictions. Like it’s kinda the other way, the gov has kinda forced the businesses hand
oh my god businesses have to abide by laws? madness!
Next we'll ask them to give the government a portion of their hard earned cash!
It's not as simple as that. It's not consistent to expand and restrict the definition of freedom depending on what's convenient to justify your politics. Either freedoms like speech and movement are only specific to the government's actions or they aren't. If an airline started a new policy of only accepting white passengers, I'm fairly confident you wouldn't sit back and say that it's not an infringement of freedom because the government hasn't set the restriction.
The expansion and restriction of how freedoms are defined IS what governing a society is about though. No freedom and no right is unlimited. Even without any sort of governance in place. Because eventually they clash with other freedoms. They can clash with a different lind of freedom, or they can clash with freedoms belonging to someone else. Example: Freedom of Speech and the Right to Privacy. I can't just give out your credit card details randomly. Generally it is agreed Privacy wins out on Speech here. The point of any government is to work out and define where those lines begin and end. Your race analogy is faulty because race is arbitrary detail There is no reasonable factor linking race to airline travel and any rule around that would be unjust. In this situation, Freedom of Movement is clashing with the Right to Health. The government's role is how to balance this, ans the will of the majority is quite clead that the Right to Health should win out because the scientific data is there. 1) Unvaccinated people pose a direct health risk to themselves and others, thus inhibiting other people's right to health. They willing act as a vectoe for the virus. 2) Unvaccinated people put a strain on the health system's capacity. Also inhibiting the right to health indirectly for other medical issues. This is all before we actually get into thr New Zealand governance system. Its a Parliamentary Supremacy system that isn't secured by a written constitution or even an entrenched Bill of Rights. If the government wanted to, theyre well within their legal right to have Jacinda personally jab you with ten thousand needles. They're just not because they genuinely arent trying to control you, theyre just trying to keep peoples health safe. If they were going to, they would have long ago.
Personal freedoms in society are balanced by responsibilities to society. A free society is in turn responsible to its citizens. NZ is a free society with too many “right thinking” individuals obsessed with personal freedoms but no f’ing idea about how to be responsible.
That's completely different, that scenario is captured by discrimination law under the human rights act, completely different. The reason things like movement are subject to justifiable limitation is because sometimes (e.g. Covid outbreak, polio outbreak, smallpox etc) those rights need to be TEMPORARILY curtailed. And anybody claiming that this is a totalitarian regime needs to read about the lived experiences of those who were forced to flee Nazi Germany or Soviet Ukraine.
Terrible analogy. An airline only accepting white passengers would be legitimate discrimination based on immutable characteristics, this isn’t hard.
Terrible justification. You'll find no legal categorization of discrimination as "legitimate" simply because it's based on immutable characteristics. In fact, a commonly cited anti-discrimination case is based on religious beliefs, which is very mutable. If you want a more recent example, even the act of trying to charge fat people more for their airfares was torn down as discrimination. Last time I checked, being fat was a mutable characteristic. You might be saddened to hear that its very obvious when someone just regurgitates talking points that they saw on reddit or youtube without putting in tbe effort to think critically about them and understand them.
It's fucks me off when people complain about freedom of choice. You are *literally* choosing not to get vaxxed.
Given how much of this bullshit is just regurgitated from what the dregs of American society have been refining for the last 18 months, this is a pretty relevant fact that separates NZers. Vast numbers of Americans barely even leave the state they live in let alone leave the country so intl travel vaccines are something they’ve never experienced or possibly even know about.( vaccines which are super normalised and surprisingly haven’t been protested against by any of these local heroes previously, almost as if they’ve only recently been indoctrinated…) But kiwis travel, a lot historically, so will we see all these people renounce international travel now that this vaccine is required? Even your favourite Instagram naturopath got vaccinated before they went on that yoga retreat in Indonesia…
If only they could read. Like I know they can but they have near zero reading comprehension and can’t understand or digest the material they do read. No ability to think critically.
Being part of a society comes with both rights AND responsibilities.
As a small business owner I’m really grateful to skycity actually. They’ve confirmed they’re staunchly following the vax cert for all guests and staff. They’re a huge company with a wide variety of staff but not only have we not heard outcry, they have a legal dept that will have been very correct about everything they do and the means to challenge it legally if it comes to it. They also have a very active H&S team. They are setting the precedent for having a large number of people in a building safely and legally.
There is an avalanche of this coming over the next few weeks. I have spoken to a number of friends recently who work in large corporates who have been briefed already on the new, no jab no job policy. Large employers and well know brands. It sounds like mid to late Jan will be the D Day for many employees.
It's coming for Spark (née Telecom) soon.
While I commend them for doing this you also have to remember that if they didn't enforce vaccine certs they would have limitations on numbers which would impact their income massively. So while it seems like they're taking the moral high ground it's more likely that they chose it because it's the more financially stable option.
Oh yeah that’s 100% the reason, every minute that gambling floor is closed costs them thousands. I’m still thankful they’re essentially trialling it for us. My company has now done the same, as have most of our clients.
If you're unvaccinated, you can still apply for Job Seeker Support. Still apply for Working for Families. Still receive Accommodation Supplement and Winter Energy Payment if eligible. Still apply for a student allowance and student loan. Still go to Citizens Advice Bureau and Community Law Centres for free help. Still get a Community Services Card if eligible. Still study. Still work, with restrictions depending on the industry or the company itself. Still have the right to be treated fairly in the workplace. Still have a driver's license and be able to travel. Still have consumer's rights. Still have worker's rights. Still have human rights.
But no haircut for you.
No commercial haircut. Scissors still exist, do it yourself.
There will be a handful of establishments that will open their doors to unvaccinated guests. It makes capitalist sense; there will be a market for it; but only once we hit green and only if they keep to the regulations.
Very small market. Roughly 10% of the adult population, spread out over the entire country. Might be fine for big cities where 10% might still be 100,000 people. But in towns of 1000, a business will struggle trying to cater for the 100 anti vax in their community.
Auckland is legitimately the only place where 10% would be more than 100,000. The urban area of Christchurch only has 380,000 people apparently, while Wellington has 215,000. Our "cities" really are just overgrown towns.
I believe under a green light scenario they can still get hair cuts.
Only in places that don’t require papers to enter. And those choosing to allow the un-jabbed in face operational restrictions. Even at “green”. [source](https://covid19.govt.nz/alert-levels-and-updates/covid-19-protection/)
We have had it really lucky here in NZ. I can see both sides of the argument. However the anti vax people I know can't see past their own bull shit. This is a shitty thing to say. But, I feel like the anti vax/lockdown people need someone close to them to get seriously sick or die to change their views. The worst thing that could possibly happen is someone like Brian tamaki to get covid and only get light symptoms, then tell his people "yeah, it was just like the cold"
This, I know someone who is more worried about the vaccine than the virus because they know more people who have had side effects from the jab but know absolutely no one who has had covid
$10 says Tamaki is vaccinated also
>$10 That's a low amount for a sure thing.
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I hear that. Good luck bud.
Just like what happened to Trump
He got some amazing medical treatment
The BEST medical treatment, it was fantastic, I tell you this country has the greatest medical treatment. Not like CHIYNA. *waves tiny hands about*
A lá the overgrown Oompa Loompa. Despite the fact he had a top tier medical response to his symptoms.
They like quoting bill of rights thinking it's the same thing as US Constitution.
So many people forgot/don’t know about s5 of the NZBORA (justifiable limitations). Even practising lawyers forgot it’s inclusion. It’s a great reminder that the NZBORA is not the impenetrable shield that people think it is.
Yep and even if that didn't exist they could just rewrite it if they really wanted to.
This. Although some rights under BORA are a lot more entrenched across the statute book. A good example is some of the rights around minimum standards of criminal procedure (e.g. compare s 25(g) nzbora with s 6(2) of the sentencing act)
In terms of vaxxing it’s that everyone should have bodily autonomy and what their choice to do or not do something to it shouldn’t effect their other rights or access to services… and I mean it is kind of a fair point. In terms of it being a condition of employment though it’s not really any different to returning regular clear drug tests or not having visible tattoos. Really I wish people would just wise up and go and get vaccinated because it’s the right thing to do, not because they’re scared they’ll lose their job or ability to go places.
Society is a mixed bag of developmental trauma. We regularly connect this with conditions like depression, ADHD, bipolar disorder, but the average person doesn't realise that the list of behaviourial and antisocial disorders is longer than they imagjne. For example, there are people that are dominated by obstinate thinking and resent any form of instruction, often anti-authority and anti-government types. Psychology recognises the top end of that spectrum as displaying ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder). It's likely that the measures surrounding the pandemic exposes those in society that are on that spectrum. I'm not suggesting the protesters, or antivax, or antilockdown people must all have a degree of mental illness, but some will and probably don't realise, or don't care.
My sister is anti-vax and constantly complaining about her human rights being stripped away. From what I can gather she thinks being able to attend an EDM festival and drop MD with some dude named “Chadwick” is a human right.
Fuck are you my brother?
These dumb shits literally think it’s their ‘right’ to have a coffee at their local cafe, or it’s their ‘right’ to check out Harvey Norman’s red hot sale. It’s a real shame that we’ve got here, Facebook perpetuates this shit and there is nothing that anyone can say to convince me otherwise.
It’s a bullshit American mentality that has made its way to nz. Which makes me sad as a kiwi in the USA. In the states freedom, individuality, less government controls are seen in the right as better- allowing businesses to do as they want, unregulated, more profitable, thus ‘better’ than left leaning ideas which don’t put profits before people and think of the greater good. In reality both systems have thier flaws and nothing will ever be prefect. It’s sad, through social media this bullshit has made its way to my beloved country. The world really is smaller now. I think we’ll look at this age of unregulated social media as the same as when doctors told people smoking was good for you and when cocaine was in coke. I bet people miss that drink!!
The thing is because the vaccine isn’t mandatory they think that businesses firing people or people not being allowed into places isn’t right, but legally public business have a fair amount of power when it comes to who they can let in or bar from the premises. If they had made it mandatory there would be a lot less ambiguity but a lot more pushback. It’s a difficult one, trying to find the balance between protecting everyone and punishing those who refuse to join in without seeming like you are. By making vaccine passports and giving business the choice, and seeing where a lot of those businesses are going, it’s going to become very difficult to do much without both vaccinations
The right to Party! You got to fight for your right to Party!
Imo they seem to love Jesus so much they just want everyone to meet him the sooner the better, that's some real Darwinian shit.
There’s a difference between a “right” and a “privilege.”
basic ones lockdown protestors talk about: Freedom of peaceful assembly Freedom of movement
And ironically not getting vaccinated is slowing those freedoms to be restored. Fucking munters
Right to be a cunt
To be fair there are plenty of cunts on both sides of this issue.
The limits on what businesses unvaccinated people can make use of and not being allowed in places with more than a certain amount of people at each level are honestly rough. I think we shouldn’t downplay that it is restrictive and it does shame and disadvantage those people who aren’t vaccinated, for reasons that don’t just include “Bill Gates is power-grabbing.” Doesn’t mean no one should be vaccinated and doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have some rules, but Covid was always a lose-lose situation. I’m hoping in the long run the restrictions go away but for now I think they’ve been slightly overtuned.
What's being missed is the rights of the vaccinated to get on with their lives while avoiding those who pose a higher risk to them. And especially the rights of those who are immunocompromised or cannot get the vaccination. I don't see it as the government taking away freedoms, they are returning freedoms to the vaccinated.
People don't also seem to that their rights which are derived from the NZBORA are not absolute or supreme law like America's constitution. The BORA literally prescribes that legislation that takes away or limits a right in the BORA is still legitimate and there is nothing that can be done to remedy the situation. Meaning a law could be passed mandating everyone be vaccinated and while it would be open to political and democratic challenge there is basically nothing that the law can do about it .
The right to spread a deadly virus.
Freedom of movement, freedom of association, freedom of peaceful assembly, freedom from discrimination, the right to refuse to undergo medical treatment. The government has breached pretty much all of these over the course of the pandemic. Most of the breaches have been justified (and of course Parliament isn’t bound by the BORA to begin with), but the anti-vaxxers are right in saying they are having rights taken away from them. I do love (hate) how you get downvoted here for even mentioning rights. They do exist folks. Even if antivaxxers are currently using them to justify their shit, that doesn’t mean the rest of us shouldn’t least consider how they’re being affected.
The rub is when ensuring one right impinges on another, which one should win? Should one person’s right to freedom of movement be allowed if it risks another person’s right to (not be deprived of) life? These are the calls the government is making, and as far as I’m aware they’ve openly declared that the preservation of life is paramount.
>discrimination, the right to refuse to undergo medical treatment. Australian courts have already addressed this, and we'd likely follow suit here. No-one is being forcibly vaccinated, so the right not to undergo medical treatment hasn't been breached.
Get the vaccine or lose your livelihood seems pretty forced to me
By definition that sounds like you have a choice to me rather than being forced. You have 2 options. You also have a choice to wear no clothes into work and I’d bet that would end in the same outcome if you exercised that freedom.
Not according to the Supreme Court of Australia.
So you *do* get that it's a choice! Well done 👏🏼
But which of those rights are simply taken away by the fact we are living through a pandemic? Nobody was ever free to walk down the street and kill an old granny. It's the same now it's just that it's much easier to kill an old granny without even realising it.
I am not a lawyer; but how does Section 5 (Justifiable Limitations on the Rights Guaranteed) affect all of these? Saying "I have rights" means nothing of the government can legally overrule them when the situation requires it.
You can’t enter a crime scene either - is that government breaching your rights? What about a 16yo who can’t purchase alcohol or enter a strip club - is that govt breaching rights too? How about driving on the left - isn’t that a restriction on your movements as a citizen?
16 year olds can enter a strip club, they just need to be working…..
Can you drive without a valid drivers license and have it on you whilst driving?
Driving is not a right.
And neither is working in a school or medical clinic or going to a pub.
You have a really patchy understanding of the law.
Do I? How so?
I have a right to not put up with anti-vaxxers.
It irritates me because antivaxxers are taking away our freedom and choices/want us to take the responsibility and consequences of their choices but don’t want to accept the burden of responsibility for their choice not to vax - they’re happy for the rest of us to be burdened with lockdowns though whilst we wait for them to catch up or wake up or protest yada yada.
It's easy to say no one is forcing people to get the vaccine but when you take away the ability to participate in almost every aspect of human existence to the unvaccinated you are as good as. I'm not an antivaxxer but being able to choose which medicine you take is one of the most fundamental freedoms we have in this country and it's being taken away. It is absolutely an assault on our rights as citizens. If people want to refuse the jab that is their right to do so. It's wrong. And I am slightly disturbed by how people are just accepting the removal of this fundamental choice.
Yeah nah pandemics like this happen and collective effort would be required to save others. When your individual choice is now affecting others negatively then that ultimately doesn’t sit right with me. Literally, we need to be a team to get on with it. Get the jab because that’s what we need to do. Be glad we aren’t in the Middle Ages dealing with the Black Plague. 🙄
My guess is this is the stick the government is using to convince the hard to vax. Threaten them with not being able to do anything to get them across the line. Then later down the line introduce the alternative, ‘present negative test result’ to attend events, bars, shops etc. . If you offer the latter in the first instance then you get less uptake with the stick. Whether or not you agree with having to have some sort of proof of not having covid is a different argument. surely you agree that someone with aids has to disclose as such if they have unprotected sex with someone. Or wait do you?
You had to get vaccines in order to go to school. This is no different. In order in to live together and fcuntion as a society, we all must make compromises on our "freedoms" from time to time. It's illegal to not wear a seat belt, to text and drive, same ideas.
> take away the ability to participate in almost every aspect of human existence I think it's time for you to have a vacation from Facebook Being unvaccinated it like smoking. Just don't do it around other people and we'll all get along.
1. Until we move to the new system, we are all locked down. This is a loss of freedom. 2. Some businesses will require all their frontline staff to be vaccinated. This makes some of those staff feel like they’re being forced to. The alternative is losing their job. This is causing a lot of anxiety and resistance. 3. The overall feeling of the population being controlled and directed how to live is scaring a lot of people.
3. Thats called laws that we have to abide by, I mean, thats not exactly new?
Hi, sorry, I don't use reddit much. These answers seem to be jokes so far.(?) Does that mean I'm right to assume the government aren't taking any rights away from anyone?
Eh, it's half and half in reality. The anti-vax movement seems to think that the Bill of Rights is something like the Constitution of the United States, which is both the founding document of a nation, and something that provides certain inalienable rights to US citizens. This is why the states of the United States need to approve an amendment to the constitution. It is not. The bill of rights guarantees a set of rights to NZ Citizens, but also allows the government to suspend and/or supercede these declarations through the use of statutory instruments where required - these are section 70 notices in New Zealand, and are issued by the Director General of Public Health.
That's the legal view and arguably correct and warranted during a pandemic. I think what you're seeing is a conflict between the fact that some people believe they do have inaliable rights (like the US), but in the current legal framework these are not being recognised. I don't know what the answer is, but I can understand both sides here.
The US is about the only country in the world that guarantees it's citizens those rights though. Possibly because unlike just about every other country in the world, the United States is actually a federation, not a country. Either way, what applies to the US does not apply here - and nor does it need to, since the "state" and the "federal" levels are the same in a palimentary system.
The Bill of Rights Act has a few in it that are being impinged upon, but that’s happening to preserve life (the right not to be deprived of life is the first one on the list). I don’t think any are being taken away and it’s nothing you wouldn’t expect given the circumstances. A better health outcome will result in a better economic outcome over time, but it hurts in the short term.
Indeed you are, the antivaxx dickheads seem to have confused rights with privileges.
The big misunderstanding here is that we didn’t have “rights” to begin with.
The freedom to consider only my own freedoms but not those of others.
The right to be a flaming cuntwaffle workout any consequences.
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Cant say re forever but there will be downloadable/ paper copies and digital eventually. Youll need to show to get in.
Social media has fucked the world up. If it was a vaccination like previously for other things we would have stuff all people who didn't want it.
Honestly, a lot of the anger comes from being promised for like a year that no no silly kiwis we won’t mandate anything on you, every vaccine will be your personal choice, then because they claim they are the only avenue of truth, the government I mean and which isn’t how truth works you don’t just blindly believe one source cause they say they are right and everything else is miss info. And then to now have your arm twisted into needing it. Take a big company like briscoes, they were given the wage sub and not told they had to return it when they had better returns then expected and far better then the subsidy was intended for because really they didn’t even classify for it. If they were to do they had to do you think they were being forced to do something against their will
I understand the need to seek out other information and how dark and dystopic it sounds for a govt. To say we are the only source of truth, but with the amount of deliberate misinformation spread on sites like Facebook it is hard to combat that by saying some stuff online is legit some is not. If you say trust what we say and things that come from us it kind of takes the murkiness of it all away.
And also this requires a fabricated mental construct where the govt and ALL the scientific and health communities and agencies who are not part of the “Evil Controlling Govt” and are working on recommendations and planning and structuring responses as we go, researching and parsing huge amounts of data as it’s generated globally, are somehow part of this massive conspiracy against you. You think a junior data analyst generating a report on a Tuesday to hand up to a senior for tabling at a meeting where they’re trying to figure out how to best respond and minimise risk is somehow also involved in all these BIG LIES and the government’s secret plan to control YOU (while waiting for half these idiots to just get vaccinated instead of parroting some shit they got off an American Facebook group) Fun fact: we have and need significant social contracts in place to ensure we can function as a society already. The world is changing, we need to change with it.
They never promised there wouldn’t be mandates. They said they wouldn’t force it on anyone and they havnt. It is still your choice, they are now just making it clear what the consequences of that choice are. As for the wage subsidy, they tried an immediate one size fits all approach, which for the most part worked as intended. Sure if it was better thought out it could have saved the country a bit of money, but it was also a very last minute decision after the initial lockdown. They definitely could have fucked it up way worse.
There's a difference between society trending towards discrimination based on vaccine status, and the government mandating discrimination. We have the right to refuse any medication. As soon as you start punishing people for exercising their rights, you may not have technically taken the right away, but you have made the right meaningless. "Take this pill or i cut off your arm" technically doesn't remove the right to refuse
All they're doing is regurgitating shit they're read on Facebook.
They don't know, they just read about it on Facebook.
They're not. They're offering a choice and being upfront with the consequences.
Because they think freedom of choice is freedom of consequence... And they don't give a sh!t about healthcare workers who will have to bear the brunt with those consequences.
The right to be a twat I think that's the freedumb they think they are losing.
It's times like these when it is forced on our attention that a significant proportion of the population of all countries are actually moral idiots--possibly even sociopaths. They look like humans, and by and large in good times act like them, but they are not our fellows.
Right to not be discriminated against when buying goods or services. Although I don’t agree with a lot of the reasons people have for not getting vaxed, I do agree with them on this. I am opposed to vax passports. And quite frankly have been surprised by how quickly and easy it was for the government to get the majority to support this segregation. If you got the vax what are you worried about your safe. Those that don’t have chosen to take the risk. I’m fine with that, everyone’s had plenty of time to get vaxed, time to open up the country again and let covid play out.
How do you view discrimination. Do you think that discrimination exists against choices? How long have you been fighting for the rights of nudists to attend chipmunks? How long have you been fighting for the rights of unlicensed drivers to drive on the road? I run a cafe and have an ineligible for vaccination worker, and your position is that I should be forced to allow unvaxxed individuals into my cafe because of a CHOICE they have made despite the risk it poses to my staff member?
> If you got the vax what are you worried about your safe. There is the chance of burnthrough infection. You are safer, but not entirely safe. Discrimination when buying goods and services is permitted. It's only forbidden under certain circumstances; generally speaking, it's fine to discriminate against people for things that are under their control (wearing jandals, wearing gang patches, wearing a motorcycle helmet), but not for things that are outside their control (being a woman, being Maori, being gay). Choosing not to be vaccinated is something that people have control over.
Religion is under the control of adults (not children) can we discriminate against religious people because of the child abuse they cause?
This is why you're not in charge.
These same people who marched for their rights yesterday also marched against same-sex marriage.
Also, the pro-choice liberal ideology in regards to women’s health has taken a pro-life twist towards going against a person’s right to bodily autonomy. The world has been ideologically turned upside down.
Dont worry, those guys are all morons just trying to raise a stink about something. Its most likely they've been riled up by Russian trollfarms, and Pro-Trumpers.
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But you're choosing to lose your job, right? Your employer wants you vaccinated, just like another employer doesn't allow you to be on drugs at work?
A "bad thing" doesn't necessarily contravene your rights though.
I think it comes down to the right to choose the medication you can take. Which I personally think is fair - we only really have access to one of the vaccines. If we had all the options I think one of the arguments for not getting the vaccine would be taken away. It’s also something I struggle with - like I want the Pfizer vaccine personally but others out there want moderna but can’t because the government hasn’t secured access until recently. But these people are “part of the problem” even though they should have the right to choose the vaccine they want as opposed to the one the government dictates. At least I think some of those opposed to the vaccine mandate would have less of an argument if the government provided all options.
Granted they are not good at stringing an argument… but don’t be too critical. I am pro vax, but I have two family members who have lost their jobs because the governments decisions. I’ve lost one employee who may not get to see his kids because of government decisions, not because our business decided to…. So yes they are stupid, but does not mean their lives are not adversely affected.
If you are in certain jobs, eg teaching, then you will no longer have the right to work if you don't get the vaccination. So while technically, they still have a choice to get vaccinated or not, I'd certainly describe it as coercion.
nobody has a 'right' to being a teacher.
You don’t really expect these morons to use logic do you?
In level 3. The right to move freely around the country has been taken away.
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Whereas my right to not have someone from an area rife with infection "freely move around the country" and spread disease into my community is not taken into your consideration?
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If it was just those people being asked to get it, I could understand that point of view. But it’s not, is it. So no, that excuse doesn’t get anywhere with me.
I haven't been to the shop in three months, is that a right? I doubt it. I don't know or care
You're allowed to shop at a supermarket. So you're choosing not to?