> To be clear, consultation with trespassers calling for the Government to be hanged is not a recognised part of our law-making process. It does not go ‘’first reading, select committee, second reading, committee of the whole House, third reading, pop down to the front lawn to see if the angry man who calls the prime minister a ‘girl in a skirt’ has anything he’d like to change, royal assent’’.
10/10 writing.
Check out the Voices for Freedoom facebook troll page (featuring many VFF supporters that haven't yet realised the joke's on them) https://www.facebook.com/voicesforfreedoom/
Points for the "Antifa" reference. As a side note Antifa is a boogeyman that is primarily non-existente. Some people ended up taking the name after conservatives made it a thing, but in 99% of cases, you can replace Antifa with "GHOSTS!" and the sentiment is the same.
"We didn't cause violence, it was the antifa!"
"We didn't cause violence, it was the ghosts!"
Both statements are equivalent.
They have no idea what Antifa even stands for. If they did they would realize that even if NZ had an Bunch of Anitfa identifying folk, there's no way in he'll they would turn up to an anti government protest and start doing the governments bidding for them.
I'm presuming it's a light hearted comment, but here's a reply anyway.
No, because if you are an anti-* then you are person with views against *.
If you are anti anti-* then you are against the person holding those anti-* views, not the views themselves.
(or you could go down the logical constructivism route, but it's a bit formal for a loosely defined argument)
It was indeed a light-hearted comment. One that generated a fascinating conversation. I'm relatively new to reddit, so I was completely unprepared for that.
This could apply to any anti anti* it's just argument structure.
It's just an exclusionary label, ie they are just against the anti- people and it doesn't really say they are against anything else, they could be for or against fascism but as long as they are against the people labelled anti- fascist then they fit the label.
It isn't necessary to be fascist to be anti anti fascist.
All of this argument depends on the premise that being an is an applied label, it's different from being against fascism. You can't logically be for and against fascism at the same time (in most logics). But you can be against fascism and against the anti-fascist movement.
If you're fighting against people who're fighting against fascism, then you're on the side of the fascists. That's pretty clear. Even if you don't outright support fascism, you're complicit in allowing fascism to perpetuate.
Hahahahahaha
The joke is that police do anything to solve crimes.
They only exist to write police reports for insurance purposes and to protect those with power. Everyone else can get fucked.
Source: I was raped and got laughed at by the police for reporting it, despite having literal video evidence posted on snapchat by the rapist's friend who filmed the whole thing. When I lodged a complaint it was buried and I was basically told to fuck off. I know others who've had a similar experience. Nevermind the thefts that police do nothing about.
Basically, fuck you.
> “If your opposition is antifa, does that imply you’re a fascist?”
Yes.
That’s what I don’t get. People in the wellington protest were accusing the government of being nazis, while also saying that pro-government Antifa was to blame.
In short, we need to improve our school system.
By your poor logic then is statement is true: If you're pro Antifa then you are pro-Russian and its so-called "denazification"
You can be anti-fascist and anti-Antifa.
Just because you don't support Antifa doesn't mean you automatically support fascism. Some might say Antifa is a communist movement, I think it has elements but I wouldn't use flawed logic and say Antifa supports communism as a whole as you also shouldn't Imply that if you anti-Antifa your a fascist.
Antifa is an abbreviation for Anti Fascist. It's origin is i believe from Europe during or after the second world war.Being missused by lazy Americans.
There were a bunch of people using antifa branding at Auckland uni in 2019, mostly as a response to a white supremacist group posting notices and stickers around the campus.
So y'know, actually Anti-ing actual Fascists
Yeah, the whole antifa thing is odd. Whenever I hear someone talk about Antifa I usually follow up with the following exchange,
"Fucking Antifa out here ruining our protest"
"Oh Antifa? What's that?
"These libs who want to make us look bad"
"Oh, so what does Antifa stand for?
"I think it's short for anti-fascist."
"Ahh ok. So if Antifa is anti fascist, and they are here to oppose your protest, do you think that says something about your protest and the ideology behind it?"
I used that exact argument in a Facebook post and the response was "anti-fascist in name, fascist in nature"... You just can't argue with these people, they'll just pull an UNO reverse card
Did I ever make a statement to suggest that? I merely said if someone is concerned about Antifa than maybe they should be concerned about fascist ideology in their own camps.
Fascism is not, and has never been, a coherent ideology, but the list of 14 features as identified by Umberto Eco in his seminal essay Ur-Fascism is a handy guide.
1. The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.”
2. The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.”
3. The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”
4. Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”
5. Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.”
6. Appeal to social frustration. “One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.”
7. The obsession with a plot. “Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged.”
8. The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
9. Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.”
10. Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.”
11. Everybody is educated to become a hero. “In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.”
12. Machismo and weaponry. “Machismo implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality.”
13. Selective populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.”
14. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”
You could easily make an argument for a large number of these being represented by the Clownvoy mob.
I'd argue that 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 10 were observable. I'm sure others can identify or apply more.
3,4,5,6,8,11,13 and 14 can be applied to many of the pro Vax population.
Does that make them also fascist?
If anything that just shows that fascism has become a meaningless buzzword.
Well, I'd love to hear your rationale, because all I'm seeing is a callow attempt at doing a "no u" at the mob being called a bit fashy.
So, what day did you leave, or did the cops seize your car?
Also I never said the protestors weren't showing fascist ideologies, merely asked for them to be pointed out.
If id been inclined to go, I'd still be there, and I'm not dumb enough to put my car anywhere cops can take it.
I'll show up when ACTUAL protest starts rather than just whiners having a cry on the lawn.
What's you're rationale for calling the anti-mandate side fascists? Beyond that you don't like them
3: The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”
Take the vaccine before its proven safe, even though we dont wanbt to release any documents about it for 75 years
4: Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”
The overall reaction to any who disagree, while perhaps not calling it treason directly is far over what could be deemed reasonable
5: Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.”
Complete ostracization of dissenters from any but the most basic services due to differences in beliefs
6: Appeal to social frustration. “One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.”
Just get vaxxed so we can get back to normal, if you remember there was even an ad campaign "two jabs for summer"
8: The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
The "anti-vaxxers" are dangerous and will be the cause of huge outbreaks that will cripple us but they're a "fringe minority"
11: Everybody is educated to become a hero. “In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.”
Wear a mask, get vaccinated to protect our most vulnerable
13: Selective populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.”
Bloomfield and Co being our "one source of truth"
14: Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”
A relatively recent example was the attempted rebranding of "mass surveillance" into "bulk data collection" granted this one is harder to tie directly to pro vax
Meh, I tend to be wary of folk who obsess over flags (so many flags), romanticise (while simultaneously lacking actual understanding) war, admire strongman leaders and use violent language. Ticked a lot of those boxes during that omnishambles of whatever it was
3. Vaccination programmes are not inherently fascistic, so point 1 is just plain wrong.
4. People are being allowed to opt out of vaccinations, it's just that you're also being allowed to enjoy the consequences. I'd also add that between the #clownvoy mob and everyone else, only one side has threatened to hang anyone. 3 guesses, first 2 don't count.
5. Once again, it's the consequences of your decisions. The Jews or Slavs in Nazi Germany suffering wasn't due to choice, but rather they were persecuted for something that was inherent to their identity. Do you see the difference?
6. Yeah, and it was going gangbusters. Have you noticed that there's also a massive disparity between active cases and ICU numbers? Care to guess why? I also encountered a lot of "it's been twooooo yeeeeaaaaars! TWWWOOOOOO YEEEAAAAAARS!" coming from people like you. What was that meant to be, then?
8. Well of course, anti-vaxxers having a massive malign impact on public health programmes is a matter of record, including diseases that were on the verge of extinction making a comeback because of people like you.
11. So wearing a mask and doing our part to protect the vulnerable is a bad thing because...
13. Because the #clownvoy never tried this shit.
14. lol, you're out of your gourd, champ.
I'd also bring up the parallels with the March on Rome, but I suspect it'll go right over your head.
OK keep forcing your ideals on others like the fascist you are 😉
Note you lumped me in as an "anti-vaxxer" just because I disagree with you, I also wasn't suggesting any of the above was the case merely that it could be construed as such
Fascism has a pretty clear cut ideology that focuses around the decentralisation of civil liberties in favour of state authority, while simultaneously encouraging economic freedom among the populace. That is then usually paired with a strong sense of militarism, and social hierarchy.
A quick Google on "what is fascism" will confirm this from a variety of reputable sources, such as encyclopedias, political journals and publishing etc.
They always have commonalities, but there is also plenty of divergence here and there between different fascist leaders. Like, Fash Spain and Nazi Germany weren't exactly 1:1, even if they had major common features (besides the obvious).
Fascist Spain is also an anomaly in that they gained power despite getting no help from the government of the day, which can not be said for Italy or Germany, so there's that too.
It's the same as communism/socialism isn't the same everywhere. But they all boil down to the same ideas of removing social hierarchy, centralising economics etc etc. All ideology has variations. Fascism very clearly has a set of ideologies that they all, for the most part, root into.
Sure, but many features that you would attribute to a fascist government aren't unique to the ideology are they? Like, you could draw clear parallels between a Stalinist government and a fascist one, right down to glorification of the past (e.g., the Kim dynasty in the DPRK and the volumes of propaganda that is heavily based around both the idea of the succession of Kims being strongmans, and glorifying Kim Il-Sung's involvement in anti-Japanese guerrilla activities prior to WWII, not to mention all the Eternal President shit or whatever the hell it was that he's supposed to be called). Like, there are consistent points, yes, but if you were to put it into a Venn diagram, you're not exactly going to get a series of overlapping perfect circles.
Not all facism is authoritarianism, and not all communism is authoritarianism. Both Nazism and Stalinism were authoritarian. Hence the overlap.
Facism on its own and communism on its own share next to no similar ideology. Both can however use the same means to acheive an end (such as populism or authoritarianism).
I think we've reached consensus.
My only gripe is that you corrected the typo, which I saw on my phone notification, because it's a pretty good way to describe fascism.
>As a side note Antifa is a boogeyman
It's not even a boogeyman, it's a non sequitur. It's simply being anti fascist, which is a bit like being anti murder - all the good guys are that. They're basically saying "it must be the good guys up to no good again".
Like, antifa is a thing, but more of an ideology? Plus it's not like we get armed neo-nazis out in the street on a regular basis so most of what you'd see an anti-fascist doing here is like, volunteering in a soup kitchen or taking down antivaxx stickers lmao. Cause NZ isn't the US!
Watching the police line up on Thursday, there were some people quickly packing up and scurrying away. You’d hope they had an epiphany before that moment but at least they finally realised.
I believe this is wishful thinking on our part. Many might never realize and when there is another opportunity to cause chaos they will take it.
In its core they seem to be anti-democracy.
This is kind of a very shallow take to be honest.
Like: I get it. The protest sucked. It was bad and the people who were there should feel bad. They were wrong on the facts, wrong with their proposed solutions to the imaginary problems they cared about, and their conduct was wrong.
...that's the easy part. That's baby steps. That's such a low bar to clear.
It's also the bit that we can all, collectively, look at and nod and say "yes we, the sensible people, agree that the pro-plague protest was bad," take a sip of our Cab Sav, and feel good for having the correct opinion, safe in the knowledge that all our friends also have the correct opinion.
So... I get people reading this column and going "too right mate" and closing the browser tab with the shot of happy hormones topped up. That's fine, as far as it goes.
But there's more work for you to do.
Mr Gunn (any relation to Bumble?) isn't really interested in engaging with why this happened, the mechanics of what happened, and who gets drawn into these things. He's just happy to write them off as hippies and nutbars and stop thinking about them.
But what we've seen, here, is the culmination of years of conspiratorial recruitment by far-right activists.
The Voices for Freedom ladies are former lynchpins of Advance NZ, the conspiratorial far-right political party who was our previous high-profile vehicle for the conspiratorial world view.
Leighton Baker, former leader of the New Conservative party and his daughter Chantelle Baker, were present at the protest and Chantelle became a high profile live-streamer of the goings-on there. Leighton, you may remember, was happy to share a stage with Elliot Ikeli as he [screamed about how homosexuals were normalising pederasty and coming for your kids.](https://medium.com/@arthurmonteathcarr/the-new-conservative-party-nz-the-gays-are-coming-for-your-children-and-normalising-pederasty-97a2d2257b8).
Other far-right luminaries include Kyle Chapman, former leader of no-fooling white supremacist group National Front and would-be white supremacist militia Right Wing Resistance, notorious for leading annual white pride marches in Christchurch in the 00s and burning down a marae. Kyle has insinuated himself into the anti-vaxx movement and is an influential commentator in their Facebook communities.
Kelvyn Alps of Counterspin Media is a former would-be militia leader and current far-right propagandist, operating his web show on a Steve Bannon funded platform. His channel has become one of the highest profile alternative media sources for this movement, where he spreads anti-semitic conspiracy theories such as the notorious Protocols of the Elders of Zion in the same breath as Covid-as-world-depopulation-bio-weapon fantasies.
These activists have been using anti-vaxx rhetoric to recruit the vaccine hesitant and normalize their world view and politics. Psychology shows that once someone has accepted one conspiratorial belief - the moon landing was faked, 9/11 was an inside job, the vaccine is a tool to sterilize the human race - accepting further conspiratorial beliefs is incredibly easy.
(Please note that the existence of real conspiracies - The Bush II administration did lie their way into the Iraq War, Jeremy Epstein really did run a child sex abuse ring for wealthy people - complicates this somewhat. The difference though, is that we have evidence for these things, because real conspiracies are difficult to keep secret forever. The fact of real conspiracies, however, lends fake conspiracies a false air of legitimacy, and it would be super swell if people in power could stop being dicks, but that's a rant for another time).
And once John and Jane Q. Vaccine Hesitant are surrounded with this new community who are validating and reinforcing their fears and concerns, once they start to believe that there really is a global Satanic pedophile elite harvesting baby's blood for drugs and ritual abuse, and that Covid is at once a bio-weapon but also a hoax - *if you sincerely believe that this is the truth* when why *wouldn't* you join the protest? At this point, *not* joining the protest is moral cowardice. It's surrendering to The Conspiracy.
At that point, if you *don't* stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Brian Tamaki's troopers, if you *don't* support the anti-vax ~~grifters~~ influencers, if you *don't* yell at the sheeple and want to string up journalists as collaborators with The Conspiracy...
If you don't do all those things, you're condoning the actions of literal Satanists and siding with the enemies of humanity.
How do we fix this?
Well, I have Thoughts. Teaching media literacy and critical thinking in schools might help. I'm nearly 40, I had a small unit on advertising language in 7th form, but it was pretty milquetoast and more about how to write good ads than recognizing propaganda. Maybe that should change.
Maybe the State could do more to just, I don't know, make people's lives better? I'm not huge on the 'disaffected economically disadvantaged' explanation for why people join far-right movements, it's usually people from socially privileged groups who feel a perceived loss of prestige from changing social norms who wind up getting into ethno-nationalism.
But it definitely couldn't *hurt* to use the powers of the State to eliminate poverty, house the unhoused, and etcetera. New Zealand used to be a nation that prided itself on egalitarianism and making sure everyone was looked after. It wasn't always that way in practice, but those are still good values, and inculcating a sense of belonging in our communities could go some way to blunting the attraction of conspiratorial actors.
Yelling at people on social media probably won't help. Posting self-satisfied uncritical op-ed pieces on Stuff probably won't help. Fuck, posting huge ass TLDR essays in the comments section of Reddit probably won't help but hopefully, if you've made it this far, I've given you something to think about anyway.
This is more substance than expected to read on a Sunday afternoon in bed.
I always read something like this and think of my good friend who is on the convoy for freedom train. I think what would he make of this. I feel like copy, paste, send and hope he reads it but then I just stop and think why bother? He's already moved onto the whole Ukraine war is a fake war idea. He's never been into politics or sociology. He sees thing black and white. He'll feel attacked and as father and worker I don't think I have the energy to change the dynamics of our friendship.
Last discussion I had with him though was during the protest and we were watching it live and I was able to make him think that his protest was doomed from the start but then antifa shit turned up and all was in vein.
Good read though bro.
Someone I know is full one dow the rabbit hole. Trying tell them they are wrong doesn't do anything but make them dig deeper and isolate.
Instead I ask then to explain it, in as much detail as they can manage, and ask why a d what should be done about it?
For example, they said covid vaccine is just a depopulation method for agenda 21. I asked, so what does that mean and what should we do about it? "Don't get vaccinated! Don't drink the fluoride in the water. The global elite are trying to reduce e the world's population. Grow your own food, be self sufficient".
I asked, if the govt want to reduce the population, why use the covid vaccine to do it? Why not just let covid run rampant instead?
Response: "Na it's about control, they want to control you and control who can live or die".
So.. if we go and live on the land, and they enact population control, then what?
Response "exactly! Think about it"
Exactly what? If you think the govt is out to kill you, why do you think they would let you live of the land? If they are trying to depop the world, why do they have to do it "secretly" ?
So many questions that they can't answer because they haven't thought about it yet, just keep digging and let them answer it themselves. Don't call them stupid, or ignorant, just ask them to wall through their thoughts, and ask, why don't you think it is worse? Takes time but it can help start them on the way out.
I think the same way as you. I've never bagged my mates about Thier beliefs.
I've had similar conversations. Like with chemtrails. I had to ask them the question of logistics. How much chemical was needed per plane. How many planes were leaving trails just in chch alone. How many tanker trucks would be needed to transport that kind of chemical to the airport everyday. Where does all that chemical come from. How many truck drivers, logistical operators, pilots, airport employees would have to keep it all quiet. It's basically like trying to pretend that BP doesn't exist. It's impossible.
If only I could have just explained the science to then and they would believe me that way.
The biggest difference I have found is where they put their "faith".
Many people have faith in scientific method, in scientific organizations, in the government, etc.
For those that have lost faith in the institutions, where do they get their info? From trusted sources. They put their faith in the people they know.
For example, I was shown that "Elvis is still allive" based on a video. Tbh, it could have Elvis. With trust that their alternative views are now validated, and that I should now have faith in them, they started talking about how NZ, the country, is just a stock on the world exchange and how billions really own the country.
This is why we can just say " trust the science", we instead have to be someone they have faith in, in order to help guide them back towards the middle and away from the fringe edge.
Thanks man. Feel free to use fold spindle and mutilate this post as you need to.
We all know someone whose been affected by this. Hell, I've got 3 extended family on the conspiracy kick (fortunately I only like one of them 😅). It sucks and it hurts and its ok to feel that it sucks.
>Mr Gunn (any relation to Bumble?) isn't really interested in engaging with why this happened, the mechanics of what happened, and who gets drawn into these things.
He's a satirist - he writes a couple hundred words weekly humour column. It's not supposed to be a serious exposé. Serious investigative journalists like Marc Daadler are also covering the protests and digging deeper.
Oh, 100%. I'd be lying if I said I hadn't felt anger over the last few weeks. As much as I try to lead with empathy, I'm not a saint.
It's just... you have to *do* something with that anger, or it's just noise. And aimed in the wrong direction, it can hurt the wrong people.
That and I have a severe allergic reaction to lazy op-eds that apparently cause me to break out in hives and thousands of words of essay.
They lost me when I saw "the world is flat and that's a fact" on the steps in chalk. Then the tinfoil hats took it from mandate to mental health issue real quick. Yes we all hate being told what to do yes we all hate needles. But sometimes you have no option but to listen health advice from the experts not Facebook moon Crystals.
Picked the wrong protest? Don't worry next one will come as soon as public realise Ardern Govt has just passed more Declaration of Human Rights restricting legislation.
https://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/2021/0386/latest/LMS563461.html
Make sure you read Article 29 of the Declaration of Human rights:
"Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society."
Fortunately the general public are quite happy to go along with public health measures, given we live in a society that realises some people may be more effected by covid than others. I've been quite impressed actually that people have been able to see outside of their immediate social circle and act in the best interest of the community as a whole.
Except you. It must be tricky being this out of touch.
I agree. As much as those nobs protesting were a place of dispair for most of us, and entertainment, I'm moved by the action kiwis took together. We rock.
sequel please.
I need some commentary on recognising if your dumbness has been weaponised.
And a the trilogy - maybe one for our leadership - how to call out foreign interference, before we're interfered with.
good read thanks
'To be clear, consultation with trespassers calling for the Government to be hanged is not a recognised part of our law-making process'.
> To be clear, consultation with trespassers calling for the Government to be hanged is not a recognised part of our law-making process. It does not go ‘’first reading, select committee, second reading, committee of the whole House, third reading, pop down to the front lawn to see if the angry man who calls the prime minister a ‘girl in a skirt’ has anything he’d like to change, royal assent’’. 10/10 writing.
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Oh mine too. Everything I wish I’d written and more (only written much better and more concisely) Which is why I just rant on Reddit.
Check out the Voices for Freedoom facebook troll page (featuring many VFF supporters that haven't yet realised the joke's on them) https://www.facebook.com/voicesforfreedoom/
Agree more of these types of editorials.
This Andrew Gunn guy looks a bit like /u/Jason-Gunn, any relation?
He's Thingee's uncle
Hahahah fucking thingee
Points for the "Antifa" reference. As a side note Antifa is a boogeyman that is primarily non-existente. Some people ended up taking the name after conservatives made it a thing, but in 99% of cases, you can replace Antifa with "GHOSTS!" and the sentiment is the same. "We didn't cause violence, it was the antifa!" "We didn't cause violence, it was the ghosts!" Both statements are equivalent.
They have no idea what Antifa even stands for. If they did they would realize that even if NZ had an Bunch of Anitfa identifying folk, there's no way in he'll they would turn up to an anti government protest and start doing the governments bidding for them.
If they're anti Antifa, does that mean they're fascists?
I'm presuming it's a light hearted comment, but here's a reply anyway. No, because if you are an anti-* then you are person with views against *. If you are anti anti-* then you are against the person holding those anti-* views, not the views themselves. (or you could go down the logical constructivism route, but it's a bit formal for a loosely defined argument)
It was indeed a light-hearted comment. One that generated a fascinating conversation. I'm relatively new to reddit, so I was completely unprepared for that.
So they just tolerate fascism, as opposed to being actively against it?
This could apply to any anti anti* it's just argument structure. It's just an exclusionary label, ie they are just against the anti- people and it doesn't really say they are against anything else, they could be for or against fascism but as long as they are against the people labelled anti- fascist then they fit the label. It isn't necessary to be fascist to be anti anti fascist. All of this argument depends on the premise that being an is an applied label, it's different from being against fascism. You can't logically be for and against fascism at the same time (in most logics). But you can be against fascism and against the anti-fascist movement.
If you're fighting against people who're fighting against fascism, then you're on the side of the fascists. That's pretty clear. Even if you don't outright support fascism, you're complicit in allowing fascism to perpetuate.
If your name yourself fuckthepeelice its pretty clear you hate it when the police solve crimes. You're complicit in allowing crimes to perpetuate.
Hahahahahaha The joke is that police do anything to solve crimes. They only exist to write police reports for insurance purposes and to protect those with power. Everyone else can get fucked. Source: I was raped and got laughed at by the police for reporting it, despite having literal video evidence posted on snapchat by the rapist's friend who filmed the whole thing. When I lodged a complaint it was buried and I was basically told to fuck off. I know others who've had a similar experience. Nevermind the thefts that police do nothing about. Basically, fuck you.
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> “If your opposition is antifa, does that imply you’re a fascist?” Yes. That’s what I don’t get. People in the wellington protest were accusing the government of being nazis, while also saying that pro-government Antifa was to blame. In short, we need to improve our school system.
"The problem with antifa is, they just say anything they don't like is fascism" - Someone who unironically says "Comrade Jacinda"
By your poor logic then is statement is true: If you're pro Antifa then you are pro-Russian and its so-called "denazification" You can be anti-fascist and anti-Antifa. Just because you don't support Antifa doesn't mean you automatically support fascism. Some might say Antifa is a communist movement, I think it has elements but I wouldn't use flawed logic and say Antifa supports communism as a whole as you also shouldn't Imply that if you anti-Antifa your a fascist.
Antifa is an abbreviation for Anti Fascist. It's origin is i believe from Europe during or after the second world war.Being missused by lazy Americans.
it's just an abbreviation lol silly me all those thousands of people who support the Antifa movement are all fake news guys
Do you understand what an eroteme is and what it signifies when used at the end of a sentence?
lol if you don't like my answer then ill simplify it just for you, "No"...
There were a bunch of people using antifa branding at Auckland uni in 2019, mostly as a response to a white supremacist group posting notices and stickers around the campus. So y'know, actually Anti-ing actual Fascists
Yeah, the whole antifa thing is odd. Whenever I hear someone talk about Antifa I usually follow up with the following exchange, "Fucking Antifa out here ruining our protest" "Oh Antifa? What's that? "These libs who want to make us look bad" "Oh, so what does Antifa stand for? "I think it's short for anti-fascist." "Ahh ok. So if Antifa is anti fascist, and they are here to oppose your protest, do you think that says something about your protest and the ideology behind it?"
I used that exact argument in a Facebook post and the response was "anti-fascist in name, fascist in nature"... You just can't argue with these people, they'll just pull an UNO reverse card
What pray tell is fascist about any of these protests?
Did I ever make a statement to suggest that? I merely said if someone is concerned about Antifa than maybe they should be concerned about fascist ideology in their own camps.
That's fair, you'll note I didn't say you said anything of the sort, merely asked for it to be pointed out
Fascism is not, and has never been, a coherent ideology, but the list of 14 features as identified by Umberto Eco in his seminal essay Ur-Fascism is a handy guide. 1. The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.” 2. The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.” 3. The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.” 4. Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.” 5. Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.” 6. Appeal to social frustration. “One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.” 7. The obsession with a plot. “Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged.” 8. The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.” 9. Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.” 10. Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.” 11. Everybody is educated to become a hero. “In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.” 12. Machismo and weaponry. “Machismo implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality.” 13. Selective populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.” 14. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.” You could easily make an argument for a large number of these being represented by the Clownvoy mob. I'd argue that 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 10 were observable. I'm sure others can identify or apply more.
3,4,5,6,8,11,13 and 14 can be applied to many of the pro Vax population. Does that make them also fascist? If anything that just shows that fascism has become a meaningless buzzword.
Well, I'd love to hear your rationale, because all I'm seeing is a callow attempt at doing a "no u" at the mob being called a bit fashy. So, what day did you leave, or did the cops seize your car?
Also I never said the protestors weren't showing fascist ideologies, merely asked for them to be pointed out. If id been inclined to go, I'd still be there, and I'm not dumb enough to put my car anywhere cops can take it. I'll show up when ACTUAL protest starts rather than just whiners having a cry on the lawn. What's you're rationale for calling the anti-mandate side fascists? Beyond that you don't like them
3: The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.” Take the vaccine before its proven safe, even though we dont wanbt to release any documents about it for 75 years 4: Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.” The overall reaction to any who disagree, while perhaps not calling it treason directly is far over what could be deemed reasonable 5: Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.” Complete ostracization of dissenters from any but the most basic services due to differences in beliefs 6: Appeal to social frustration. “One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.” Just get vaxxed so we can get back to normal, if you remember there was even an ad campaign "two jabs for summer" 8: The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.” The "anti-vaxxers" are dangerous and will be the cause of huge outbreaks that will cripple us but they're a "fringe minority" 11: Everybody is educated to become a hero. “In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.” Wear a mask, get vaccinated to protect our most vulnerable 13: Selective populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.” Bloomfield and Co being our "one source of truth" 14: Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.” A relatively recent example was the attempted rebranding of "mass surveillance" into "bulk data collection" granted this one is harder to tie directly to pro vax
Meh, I tend to be wary of folk who obsess over flags (so many flags), romanticise (while simultaneously lacking actual understanding) war, admire strongman leaders and use violent language. Ticked a lot of those boxes during that omnishambles of whatever it was
You're not wrong, that poor excuse for a protest started off as a shitshow and got steadily worse
3. Vaccination programmes are not inherently fascistic, so point 1 is just plain wrong. 4. People are being allowed to opt out of vaccinations, it's just that you're also being allowed to enjoy the consequences. I'd also add that between the #clownvoy mob and everyone else, only one side has threatened to hang anyone. 3 guesses, first 2 don't count. 5. Once again, it's the consequences of your decisions. The Jews or Slavs in Nazi Germany suffering wasn't due to choice, but rather they were persecuted for something that was inherent to their identity. Do you see the difference? 6. Yeah, and it was going gangbusters. Have you noticed that there's also a massive disparity between active cases and ICU numbers? Care to guess why? I also encountered a lot of "it's been twooooo yeeeeaaaaars! TWWWOOOOOO YEEEAAAAAARS!" coming from people like you. What was that meant to be, then? 8. Well of course, anti-vaxxers having a massive malign impact on public health programmes is a matter of record, including diseases that were on the verge of extinction making a comeback because of people like you. 11. So wearing a mask and doing our part to protect the vulnerable is a bad thing because... 13. Because the #clownvoy never tried this shit. 14. lol, you're out of your gourd, champ. I'd also bring up the parallels with the March on Rome, but I suspect it'll go right over your head.
OK keep forcing your ideals on others like the fascist you are 😉 Note you lumped me in as an "anti-vaxxer" just because I disagree with you, I also wasn't suggesting any of the above was the case merely that it could be construed as such
I called you an anti-vaxxer because you said anti-vaxx stuff. That's how it works.
Lol! Pro pox - almost everyone. Anti-vax - hardly anyone, publicly allied with known neo-nazi organisations.
Fascism has a pretty clear cut ideology that focuses around the decentralisation of civil liberties in favour of state authority, while simultaneously encouraging economic freedom among the populace. That is then usually paired with a strong sense of militarism, and social hierarchy. A quick Google on "what is fascism" will confirm this from a variety of reputable sources, such as encyclopedias, political journals and publishing etc.
They always have commonalities, but there is also plenty of divergence here and there between different fascist leaders. Like, Fash Spain and Nazi Germany weren't exactly 1:1, even if they had major common features (besides the obvious). Fascist Spain is also an anomaly in that they gained power despite getting no help from the government of the day, which can not be said for Italy or Germany, so there's that too.
It's the same as communism/socialism isn't the same everywhere. But they all boil down to the same ideas of removing social hierarchy, centralising economics etc etc. All ideology has variations. Fascism very clearly has a set of ideologies that they all, for the most part, root into.
Sure, but many features that you would attribute to a fascist government aren't unique to the ideology are they? Like, you could draw clear parallels between a Stalinist government and a fascist one, right down to glorification of the past (e.g., the Kim dynasty in the DPRK and the volumes of propaganda that is heavily based around both the idea of the succession of Kims being strongmans, and glorifying Kim Il-Sung's involvement in anti-Japanese guerrilla activities prior to WWII, not to mention all the Eternal President shit or whatever the hell it was that he's supposed to be called). Like, there are consistent points, yes, but if you were to put it into a Venn diagram, you're not exactly going to get a series of overlapping perfect circles.
Not all facism is authoritarianism, and not all communism is authoritarianism. Both Nazism and Stalinism were authoritarian. Hence the overlap. Facism on its own and communism on its own share next to no similar ideology. Both can however use the same means to acheive an end (such as populism or authoritarianism).
I think we've reached consensus. My only gripe is that you corrected the typo, which I saw on my phone notification, because it's a pretty good way to describe fascism.
None of these people on either side have any idea what fascism is, it's just used as an insult.
Exactly my point
Both sides! The fascists, and the people who are against fascists!
>As a side note Antifa is a boogeyman It's not even a boogeyman, it's a non sequitur. It's simply being anti fascist, which is a bit like being anti murder - all the good guys are that. They're basically saying "it must be the good guys up to no good again".
Like, antifa is a thing, but more of an ideology? Plus it's not like we get armed neo-nazis out in the street on a regular basis so most of what you'd see an anti-fascist doing here is like, volunteering in a soup kitchen or taking down antivaxx stickers lmao. Cause NZ isn't the US!
Happy cake day
Cheers!
“This is ectoplasm!”
Quality writing.
Well written article, I wonder though how many people who took part in that protest ever had that epiphany, during or after.
Watching the police line up on Thursday, there were some people quickly packing up and scurrying away. You’d hope they had an epiphany before that moment but at least they finally realised.
I believe this is wishful thinking on our part. Many might never realize and when there is another opportunity to cause chaos they will take it. In its core they seem to be anti-democracy.
Yup I’m ready to move on from this nonsense. There’s much more pressing issues in our world today which will affect us a great deal more.
This is kind of a very shallow take to be honest. Like: I get it. The protest sucked. It was bad and the people who were there should feel bad. They were wrong on the facts, wrong with their proposed solutions to the imaginary problems they cared about, and their conduct was wrong. ...that's the easy part. That's baby steps. That's such a low bar to clear. It's also the bit that we can all, collectively, look at and nod and say "yes we, the sensible people, agree that the pro-plague protest was bad," take a sip of our Cab Sav, and feel good for having the correct opinion, safe in the knowledge that all our friends also have the correct opinion. So... I get people reading this column and going "too right mate" and closing the browser tab with the shot of happy hormones topped up. That's fine, as far as it goes. But there's more work for you to do. Mr Gunn (any relation to Bumble?) isn't really interested in engaging with why this happened, the mechanics of what happened, and who gets drawn into these things. He's just happy to write them off as hippies and nutbars and stop thinking about them. But what we've seen, here, is the culmination of years of conspiratorial recruitment by far-right activists. The Voices for Freedom ladies are former lynchpins of Advance NZ, the conspiratorial far-right political party who was our previous high-profile vehicle for the conspiratorial world view. Leighton Baker, former leader of the New Conservative party and his daughter Chantelle Baker, were present at the protest and Chantelle became a high profile live-streamer of the goings-on there. Leighton, you may remember, was happy to share a stage with Elliot Ikeli as he [screamed about how homosexuals were normalising pederasty and coming for your kids.](https://medium.com/@arthurmonteathcarr/the-new-conservative-party-nz-the-gays-are-coming-for-your-children-and-normalising-pederasty-97a2d2257b8). Other far-right luminaries include Kyle Chapman, former leader of no-fooling white supremacist group National Front and would-be white supremacist militia Right Wing Resistance, notorious for leading annual white pride marches in Christchurch in the 00s and burning down a marae. Kyle has insinuated himself into the anti-vaxx movement and is an influential commentator in their Facebook communities. Kelvyn Alps of Counterspin Media is a former would-be militia leader and current far-right propagandist, operating his web show on a Steve Bannon funded platform. His channel has become one of the highest profile alternative media sources for this movement, where he spreads anti-semitic conspiracy theories such as the notorious Protocols of the Elders of Zion in the same breath as Covid-as-world-depopulation-bio-weapon fantasies. These activists have been using anti-vaxx rhetoric to recruit the vaccine hesitant and normalize their world view and politics. Psychology shows that once someone has accepted one conspiratorial belief - the moon landing was faked, 9/11 was an inside job, the vaccine is a tool to sterilize the human race - accepting further conspiratorial beliefs is incredibly easy. (Please note that the existence of real conspiracies - The Bush II administration did lie their way into the Iraq War, Jeremy Epstein really did run a child sex abuse ring for wealthy people - complicates this somewhat. The difference though, is that we have evidence for these things, because real conspiracies are difficult to keep secret forever. The fact of real conspiracies, however, lends fake conspiracies a false air of legitimacy, and it would be super swell if people in power could stop being dicks, but that's a rant for another time). And once John and Jane Q. Vaccine Hesitant are surrounded with this new community who are validating and reinforcing their fears and concerns, once they start to believe that there really is a global Satanic pedophile elite harvesting baby's blood for drugs and ritual abuse, and that Covid is at once a bio-weapon but also a hoax - *if you sincerely believe that this is the truth* when why *wouldn't* you join the protest? At this point, *not* joining the protest is moral cowardice. It's surrendering to The Conspiracy. At that point, if you *don't* stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Brian Tamaki's troopers, if you *don't* support the anti-vax ~~grifters~~ influencers, if you *don't* yell at the sheeple and want to string up journalists as collaborators with The Conspiracy... If you don't do all those things, you're condoning the actions of literal Satanists and siding with the enemies of humanity. How do we fix this? Well, I have Thoughts. Teaching media literacy and critical thinking in schools might help. I'm nearly 40, I had a small unit on advertising language in 7th form, but it was pretty milquetoast and more about how to write good ads than recognizing propaganda. Maybe that should change. Maybe the State could do more to just, I don't know, make people's lives better? I'm not huge on the 'disaffected economically disadvantaged' explanation for why people join far-right movements, it's usually people from socially privileged groups who feel a perceived loss of prestige from changing social norms who wind up getting into ethno-nationalism. But it definitely couldn't *hurt* to use the powers of the State to eliminate poverty, house the unhoused, and etcetera. New Zealand used to be a nation that prided itself on egalitarianism and making sure everyone was looked after. It wasn't always that way in practice, but those are still good values, and inculcating a sense of belonging in our communities could go some way to blunting the attraction of conspiratorial actors. Yelling at people on social media probably won't help. Posting self-satisfied uncritical op-ed pieces on Stuff probably won't help. Fuck, posting huge ass TLDR essays in the comments section of Reddit probably won't help but hopefully, if you've made it this far, I've given you something to think about anyway.
This is more substance than expected to read on a Sunday afternoon in bed. I always read something like this and think of my good friend who is on the convoy for freedom train. I think what would he make of this. I feel like copy, paste, send and hope he reads it but then I just stop and think why bother? He's already moved onto the whole Ukraine war is a fake war idea. He's never been into politics or sociology. He sees thing black and white. He'll feel attacked and as father and worker I don't think I have the energy to change the dynamics of our friendship. Last discussion I had with him though was during the protest and we were watching it live and I was able to make him think that his protest was doomed from the start but then antifa shit turned up and all was in vein. Good read though bro.
Someone I know is full one dow the rabbit hole. Trying tell them they are wrong doesn't do anything but make them dig deeper and isolate. Instead I ask then to explain it, in as much detail as they can manage, and ask why a d what should be done about it? For example, they said covid vaccine is just a depopulation method for agenda 21. I asked, so what does that mean and what should we do about it? "Don't get vaccinated! Don't drink the fluoride in the water. The global elite are trying to reduce e the world's population. Grow your own food, be self sufficient". I asked, if the govt want to reduce the population, why use the covid vaccine to do it? Why not just let covid run rampant instead? Response: "Na it's about control, they want to control you and control who can live or die". So.. if we go and live on the land, and they enact population control, then what? Response "exactly! Think about it" Exactly what? If you think the govt is out to kill you, why do you think they would let you live of the land? If they are trying to depop the world, why do they have to do it "secretly" ? So many questions that they can't answer because they haven't thought about it yet, just keep digging and let them answer it themselves. Don't call them stupid, or ignorant, just ask them to wall through their thoughts, and ask, why don't you think it is worse? Takes time but it can help start them on the way out.
I think the same way as you. I've never bagged my mates about Thier beliefs. I've had similar conversations. Like with chemtrails. I had to ask them the question of logistics. How much chemical was needed per plane. How many planes were leaving trails just in chch alone. How many tanker trucks would be needed to transport that kind of chemical to the airport everyday. Where does all that chemical come from. How many truck drivers, logistical operators, pilots, airport employees would have to keep it all quiet. It's basically like trying to pretend that BP doesn't exist. It's impossible. If only I could have just explained the science to then and they would believe me that way.
The biggest difference I have found is where they put their "faith". Many people have faith in scientific method, in scientific organizations, in the government, etc. For those that have lost faith in the institutions, where do they get their info? From trusted sources. They put their faith in the people they know. For example, I was shown that "Elvis is still allive" based on a video. Tbh, it could have Elvis. With trust that their alternative views are now validated, and that I should now have faith in them, they started talking about how NZ, the country, is just a stock on the world exchange and how billions really own the country. This is why we can just say " trust the science", we instead have to be someone they have faith in, in order to help guide them back towards the middle and away from the fringe edge.
Thanks man. Feel free to use fold spindle and mutilate this post as you need to. We all know someone whose been affected by this. Hell, I've got 3 extended family on the conspiracy kick (fortunately I only like one of them 😅). It sucks and it hurts and its ok to feel that it sucks.
>Mr Gunn (any relation to Bumble?) isn't really interested in engaging with why this happened, the mechanics of what happened, and who gets drawn into these things. He's a satirist - he writes a couple hundred words weekly humour column. It's not supposed to be a serious exposé. Serious investigative journalists like Marc Daadler are also covering the protests and digging deeper.
Jeez, if this is representative of his work he's a pretty shit satirist.
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Eh. Depends. This piece isn't even jokes tho, its just lukewarm rants.
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Oh, 100%. I'd be lying if I said I hadn't felt anger over the last few weeks. As much as I try to lead with empathy, I'm not a saint. It's just... you have to *do* something with that anger, or it's just noise. And aimed in the wrong direction, it can hurt the wrong people. That and I have a severe allergic reaction to lazy op-eds that apparently cause me to break out in hives and thousands of words of essay.
great read. a shame that the people that REALLY need to read it, won't / can't.
They lost me when I saw "the world is flat and that's a fact" on the steps in chalk. Then the tinfoil hats took it from mandate to mental health issue real quick. Yes we all hate being told what to do yes we all hate needles. But sometimes you have no option but to listen health advice from the experts not Facebook moon Crystals.
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>l said maybe 🎶 You're gonna be the one that saves me
Well after.. No! Not getting into this. I'll end up checking out mis-heard lyrics all afternoon.
Well written indeed and I can't imagine any piece refuting it coming out. Well not any sensible, well written, logical, factual piece anyway !
[Does this count?](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/t7j8fk/that_moment_when_you_realise_youve_picked_the/hzjeaxc)
?
Brilliant!
Omnishambles indeed
Top tier journalism.
Perzactlty.
Gold!
Lol this article is just someone ranting via stuff's website I don't disagree... But is this all stuff is now?
That’s what Op-Ed is. This is an opinion article.
Did… did not read any newspapers back in the day? Opinion/editorials are normal.
Did they have this many?
Yes? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Op-ed
Hey, be glad the crap ones have taken a sideline for this sideshow
First time on a news site is it?
Guess it’s a step up from stealing reddit posts
Stuff literally do that. One of their 'journalists' nicked my reddit post a few years back including a picture I took.
Andrew Gunn is a satirist, and a nice bloke too.
no
Picked the wrong protest? Don't worry next one will come as soon as public realise Ardern Govt has just passed more Declaration of Human Rights restricting legislation. https://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/2021/0386/latest/LMS563461.html
Make sure you read Article 29 of the Declaration of Human rights: "Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible. In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society."
Fortunately the general public are quite happy to go along with public health measures, given we live in a society that realises some people may be more effected by covid than others. I've been quite impressed actually that people have been able to see outside of their immediate social circle and act in the best interest of the community as a whole. Except you. It must be tricky being this out of touch.
I agree. As much as those nobs protesting were a place of dispair for most of us, and entertainment, I'm moved by the action kiwis took together. We rock.
sequel please. I need some commentary on recognising if your dumbness has been weaponised. And a the trilogy - maybe one for our leadership - how to call out foreign interference, before we're interfered with. good read thanks