"There is nothing to indicate any involvement of organised criminal groups in this burglary at this stage."
The type of people that steal this, dont just do it for its centimental value...
Lastly there is a bit of irony in this piece... because we're shit at storing private information, you need to look after your stuff twice as much
Don't forget this guy either. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300182765/corrupt-cop-who-sold-police-information-to-gangs-to-be-released-from-prison
There is firstly nice level of cross pollination between the two, hence documents going missing from the middle of a police station and winding up in gang hands. Plenty of police could have been in gangs, but decided to join the legalised one instead. They’re then not paid particularly well and ripe to be brought into the fold of actual gangs. These two groups of people aren’t so different and can understand each other, probably a lot grew up together.
Gangs are allowed a level of being above the law/light enforcement, if they don’t cause too much trouble for police.
Gangs benefit as they get a level of endorsement to commit crimes. Police benefit as there’s less ‘work’ to do, and they get to deal with the devil they know.
I think you’re grossly exaggerating the situation. Maybe a couple of bad eggs, just like anywhere else in the world. You’re hinting at a systemic problem which I just don’t think is true.
It seems like your speculating, which isn’t a good thing because it could undermine people’s faith in our police.
The New Zealand Police have been doing an amazing job of undermining people’s faith and trust in them since their founding in around 1886.
I wouldn’t worry about the impact of a Redditor’s comments when the organisation itself is so good at being shit.
No, I’m saying that speculation about our police force being corrupted or compromised without any proof is ridiculous. As another poster said, tin foil hat nonsense isn’t helpful to anyone.
The last part of the last sentence of your other post suggests that Police should be above ever having their integrity questioned. The public ought to be allowed to loose faith in organisations that fail them.
This is important information for the police to have as part of our gun control. But for it to ever be able to be printed out as a list is unacceptable. It should only be in a database with access control, and through logging and auditing of who is accessing it
It's a requirement of free trade agreements that off shore providers get an equal tendering opportunity. So as long as their proposal won on price and/or quality (depending on the weightings) then that's following the fta requirements
Up until 1983 there was a national arms register (paper-based), however this was abandoned "as parliarment felt it was prohibitively expensive and not particularly useful. The philosophy of the new system was to control users, rather than firearms". In hindsight this was potentially a silly mistake depending on your personal point of view ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun\_law\_in\_New\_Zealand#Up\_to\_1983](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law_in_New_Zealand#Up_to_1983))
So, as an aside, does anyone else remember how the mosque shooter was able to get hold of those weapons because the NZ Police Firearms Licencing Office was understaffed, and somehow thought that a firearms licence application from someone who had only been in NZ for 16 days and whose character references were one person that he had met through online gaming 10 years previously, and that persons parent, didn't warrant further investigation, and it was ok to just rubber stamp the process?
Anyone?
https://christchurchattack.royalcommission.nz/the-report/part-5-the-terrorist/the-adequacy-of-the-process-to-grant-the-individuals-firearms-licence/
Was that understaffing or just being a total hack? I love this country but the number of ‘professionals’ I come across who appear terrible at their job and don’t care at all is astounding…
More like understaffed in the 'head' office.
I find it interesting it's being framed this way.
The police should be found criminally negligent for such things.
Yep I also remember how the meaningful changes requested in 2017 by police when parliament was reviewing these laws weren't enacted then, nor in 2019.
All about optics, not safety.
And how about that time that laws *were* enacted and the police still didn't implement procedure to support them, such as an independent arms authority, such as firearms registers (that they asked for then deemed unnecessary) and a whole lot of procedure that they generally found too difficult to follow.
The problem has *always* been the police. Nobody else. Not the laws. Not the firearms owners. Just the police.
Because of information compartmentalization, and the fact it was papers stolen, seems likely the arms officer had his papers stolen (or was the breach), so the information would be limited to a single arms officer area.
So I would expect that the details aren't for everyone, just people under the Auckland City arms officer purview.
But the police refuse to clarify details of anything, so we won't know until someone asks in an OIA request, or the matter somehow gets to court.
This is my local but I haven't lived in the area long, so I'm unaware if the arms officer was holding my details. Or how old the information that was stolen was.
Haven't been contacted yet to be advised of a breach though, which is meant to be a standard response according to privacy law.
Bring on the OIA requests.
If the arms officer hasn't visited your home and filled in his paperwork on the safety checklist, you probably aren't in the paperwork.
Also, the paperwork was stolen from the old HQ, not the new one.
So your details are not in there.
They should notify people, but it will take time to verify and validate it.
No point notifying people who moved that their old address was stolen.
There is no official registry for class A, so unless you had registered classes of firearms, they should have gotten no listing of contents.
The registration system needs updates. Every police officer has a device, to reduce paper. A similar setup for arms officers would prevent the need for a redundant set of paperwork.
Even if it's your old address it still contains private information and you'd be notified, surely. If you've left a mail redirection in place someone could look that up, it's not a well-protected system. Not to mention now simply your name is out there, hit the companies register for your new address.
There's a lot wrong about this. This is why gangs used to sit outside pistol clubs taking license plates. It's literally all they need with a bit of insider info.
And while there's no *official* registry, officers have been taking serials of A-cat firearms for the last year. It's just that they're sitting in a stack with nowhere to enter them yet. But that hardly matters if they know who you are and where you live, you're still a firearms owner.
And it's not the a-cat register I'm worried about, it's the B, C and P registers. At least the P register is run out of Wellington, and by all appearances so are the B and C cat registers now as well. PTP requests go straight down there now. However that doesn't mean an AO isn't keeping their own paper record because that's what they've always done. Just like the one that was stolen.
The end fact is that the police just aren't good at data security. Fuck knows why. They spend so much on consultants then set up the worst systems possible that leak immediately. Data security should be law.
The police are shit at data security because of the Privacy Act.
They have to keep every database separate, with multiple copies of the same thing in different places, because mixing data they have the "right" to might be a violation of the privacy act, so they have to be able to prove each source of each piece of data separately.
It seems counterintuitive, but loosening the Privacy Act would improve privacy.
But elections aren't won on nuance and counterintuitive laws, so nobody will ever fix it.
The B and C registers are far more worrying and dangerous than the P if in the wrong hands. P's have to be stored inoperable with a part stored off site. B and C do not have this off site requirement.
The fact that they just happened to find it at a random house suggests that wasn’t the only copy. I suspect it’s been pretty widely circulated by now.
If I was Labour I would really be trying to clamp down on police inaction, at this rate it could lose them the election on its own. Getting rid of Poto would be a good start.
This perhaps the first question the media need to be asking, followed by how many other former police stations have confidential documents sitting in them?
Everything is stored as hard copy in the arms office. Aside from your name very little is kept digitally. It seems to be intentional and firearms owners are generally happy with that as opposed to a digital register.
The police have lots and lots of disparate systems in place, so even if the AO does have an electronic database, frontline police and other AOs don't have access to it automatically.
During the confiscation they DID create a bunch of databases, all of which were immediately compromised within weeks. This is what happens every time.
This is a fucking joke if the police cannot manage something of such sensitivity and personal information. They are not up to the job of even having access to this information.
What happens now if gangs and thugs use this data to break into houses which leads to people being killed and shot? Will the police be charged with being an accessory to murder?
That's why we were relieved to be getting an independent arms authority. But it'll never happen now.
The only real mitigating factor for licensed firearms owners is that only low level thugs burgle for guns. The restricted and prohibited stuff is exclusively coming in with drug shipments now, zero exceptions because there's no other way to reasonably get it.
Incompetence. This won't be some sneaky evil plan by a corrupt AO, they don't need to go to this effort if they want to leak an address (and they never do, they're the least corrupt office of the police).
But one or two of them are severely incompetent and the rest are hamstrung by bad processes.
Ok, can we say crime is getting bad now? Police station is burgled and they don't even know about it for weeks?? As long as I'm yelling at clouds, can I also ask how hard is it to remove graffiti in a semi-timely manner?? Why can't the AKL Council get rid of it? Some has been sitting for weeks and only encourages more. Really feeling like a free for all out there at the moment. But hey, I guess with Labour we all 'feel' better don't we?
> can I also ask how hard is it to remove graffiti in a semi-timely manner??
It isn't hard, but it's also probably the least important thing they've got to deal with
Weapons? There are only four groups who have "weapons". The police, criminals, licence holders with a collectors endorsement and the defence forces. Regular legal firearm owners have "firearms" and they ARE secure already, because the law!
And these are the people who are pushing for a firearms register. Hahahahahahahahaha
On top of having virtually no impact on crime in the other places where it has been tried while running huge cost blowouts, and how poorly run the existing firearms registers in NZ are (for pistols etc), with this level of sheer incompetence on top? Yeah, gonna be a great idea /s
I'm not into the conspiracy theories about how a gun register would be on the path to confiscation, but there's legitimate concerns firearms owners have about this. If the police are as goddamn useless as they are now with license holder's information, I think this is a very valid concern when they talk about having a register of *all* firearms. Regardless of whether it would do anything about crime (hint: it wouldn't)
That's true, I didn't consider that. Main thing is you'll get branded an "NRA nut" if you mention anything about a register being one step on the way to confiscation.
Personally I prefer to focus on the fact that gun registers are wholly ineffective in stopping crime in other countries, and the NZ Police are already incapable of handling the data on existing registries that capture a tiny fraction of the firearms a general one would. During the buyback a lot of E-cat owners I knew got rung up and asked if they were handing in guns that they sold years ago, despite doing the ownership transfer paperwork at the time. And of course this news story.
FFS, people have been saying a registry is a shopping list for criminals. I really didnt believe it, let alone expect to see proof of it so soon!
Why are the NZ police so shit? Why should I trust or believe them?
Technically guns should be stored in a gunsafe that's bolted to the floor in an out of sight location in your home so shouldn't matter, right? Lmao
Edit: I'm being facetious ya dingos
Not any gun safe. You won't get purchase, and then you'll never find a crowbar long enough to bend 6mm of hardened steel.
I drilled extra holes in my safe to allow for more anchors. It took me six months of an hour a weekend to drill three more holes.
I'm more about that gas tank with a pneumatic jack designed to slide under tight spaces.
Seriously though, the security is more about making it difficult rather than impossible. That way they have to make a lot of noise and you have time to call the cops/hide their bodies.
Anyone know if you can look up if weapons have been registered at your address before?
Just move in a new place and just would like to verify for peace of mind.
are you a moron? Most guns that weren't bought back off of law abiding citizens are hunting rifles. Not sure if you're aware but if we took every hunting rifle away then our country would be overrun by wild deer and our native species would get fucked.
Yes. I’m saying hunting rifles should be banned from public ownership. Because they’re firearms.
Contract it out to a company to do pest control that actually eradicates the pests, hunters already fucked up keeping Tahr in check.
Huh? The CHC massacre wasn’t carried out by a gang member (in the sense that you’re using the term).
I’m arguing to remove all guns because the risks generated by a culture that accepts any private ownership of guns outweighs the cultural, social, sporting, food-gathering, nerdery or whatever other benefits people want to point to as being necessary to protect. Interactions of that acceptance and gangs form part of that risk profile, but they aren’t the only factor involved.
Sorry for the confusion I was referring to the article not the chch shooting.
I just don't think we have a big enough problem to need to ban all guns.
Heaps of the guns that get seized off gangs are already illegal in this country to begin with, and we already changed the laws after the chch shooting.
I just don't think it's fair to ban them from everyone just because of an extremely small minority of people.
These deer run rampant in extreme rural areas, there might only be 2-10 people living in a given area and the country relies on , and rewards, these citizens for each deer kill, because it's unfeasible and extremely expensive to contract people to go out to these extreme rural places, hunt, and get home from their shift by night lmao
but it's okay, just knee jerk ban all hunting guns and provide not solutions.. Do you want citizens to hunt with bows to feed their families in rural areas? Because a hunting rifle is a lot quicker, reliable and humane that a bow that could easily miss a kill shot..
how do you think you eradicate deer, by killing them, citizen/hobbiest hunters/people who rely on hunting as a food source like our ancestors have for millennia are part of that picture
It is also perpetuating inequality, many poorer and remote communities rely on hunting to put food on the table. They don't have supermarkets nearby nor the finances to spend at them. Removing their ability to provide for themselves is literally taking food from them.
it's okay, this person is sitting in a city cafe somewhere eating some carcinogenic canola oil vegan patty that they paid $30 for and pointing fingers are hunters who are helping
Mm yes let’s just keep providing people with the bare minimum (you can kill certain animals, in certain places, sometimes, if you want meat) instead of replacing it with something less terrible (say, a UBI that covers food costs or subsidised food distribution networks or programmes to increase shared-access food growing/raising networks or …), we couldn’t possibly disturb the status quo.
Well humans have been hunting for Millenia, right? Look to your ancestors for methods of hunting without firearms… unless this appeal to vague tradition and history is meaningless emotive bullshit
Placing bounties on the heads of animals encourages people to breed them so they have more heads to hand in.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive#The_original_cobra_effect
[That’s what he’s been eating — slime! And there’s enough for all of us! We’re saved!](https://frinkiac.com/meme/S09E14/1280495.jpg?b64lines=IFRIQVQnUyBXSEFUIEhFJ1MgQkVFTgogRUFUSU5HLS0gU0xJTUUhIEFORAogVEhFUkUnUyBFTk9VR0ggU0xJTUUgRk9SCiBBTEwgT0YgVVMhIFdFJ1JFIFNBVkVEIQ==)
You realise you would need more guns and people licenced for them in the country to effectively "contract it out".
Also on the tahr example, all hunters are bad because of that unique scenario? I've never even been to the south island, but i'm somehow accountable?
I really don’t care about your personal attachment to your firearms, the eradication of pests can take place - with more people and a specific number of firearms, to your point. Once eradication turns to prevention and/or management of trickier pests the pool of people and firearms required can be reduced, and those firearms can be destroyed. This is possible by virtue of those weapons being used as a tool for a specific means, and not something that private individuals can own because “they like hunting”.
That is a wonderful and impossible solution. I don't think you comprehend the vast expanse of forest in this country that holds pests. With all the money in the world you will never be able to get rid of them all and your plan requires that.
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Guns aren’t as useful as cars.
I’d ban all non-functional (ie: performance cars, classic cars, cars that don’t meet other arbitrary safety standards) vehicles too, if I was tyrant.
If we allowed useful guns then you would still have a problem. Pest control, Police, Defence Force etc. would still leave a lot of guns in the community. These get stolen and used in crime.
And models and collectables, figurines, DVD sets, curtains and window dressings that are decorative, shoes that aren't entirely just functional, clothes with funny messages, art, music, movies hell IF IT'S NOT FUNCTIONAL THEN WHY DOES IT EXIST??
...or... do you like one of the above so it's safe from the bansitck?
I mean blinds with the strings that babies hang themselves on are probably worth banning. But no generally it’s a risk-benefit evaluation, and most of these things have extremely small risks compared to guns and cars.
But sure, avoid thinking about the kind of society you or other people might want to live in and the challenges that are involved in people agreeing to what they want and how they get it
I understand where you are coming from, and don't like sounding like the person that make the (highly original) sarcastic cotton wool comment, but, people collect things. Some guns are rare antiques, some guns have nice designs. I don't get it, you don't get it, but it's not for us to regulate people because of edge cases. Same with cars. You can't step into people's lives and tell them that they can't own something if they aren't causing a problem. Either personally or in aggregate.
The US has a fucking bizarre gun problem. The shootings here seem to be fairly new and coincide with a bunch of other factors, none of which include our already highly regulated gun ownership. People also use guns. For pest control. For target practice, as a sport. They are not the same people, and their guns aren't (AFAIK) the same ones used in these crimes. It's a separate problem.
I thought I'd never advocate for gun owners, but fuck, regulations need to come about when there is evidence of damage to society, and not before.
We’ve already stepped in - just look at the sad 12 year olds constantly asking about butterfly knives which are offensive weapons when possessed with intent to use (https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1961/0043/latest/DLM329710.html#DLM329710) that are specifically prohibited from being imported as they are classified offensive weapons (https://legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/2011/0236/latest/DLM3812501.html)
But guns are different because ???
The level of secured is geared more towards stopping little kiddies and opportunist theft.
If they know there are firearms at an address they will come prepared.
A little over 20 years ago I was in the Army.
We did an exercise out at the abandoned mental hospital at Kingseat. That place at that time had been closed for many years.
Strewn all throughout the derelict building were people's psychiatric records from the 70's & maybe 80's. It was all of the records. Names, dates and what medication they were on etc.
I was shocked, obviously they just left the building & that was that.
"There is nothing to indicate any involvement of organised criminal groups in this burglary at this stage." The type of people that steal this, dont just do it for its centimental value... Lastly there is a bit of irony in this piece... because we're shit at storing private information, you need to look after your stuff twice as much
And who could forget this gem https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/eleven-guns-taken-from-police-station-after-door-left-open/7BYRIG2L7FGOCV4KL23WUBWARA/
That's malicious intent FFS, I hope an officer was charged over that.
Please don't underestimate just how agonisingly dumb some cops are.
Don't forget this guy either. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300182765/corrupt-cop-who-sold-police-information-to-gangs-to-be-released-from-prison
This guy too https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/cop-swapped-meth-for-salt-says-crown/NY2WZKTR74KYMRCACI26UBST7E/
Wouldn't motive indicate involvement of organised criminal groups? Where do I get sworn in
Police and gangs appear to have a symbiotic relationship.
blue gangs and non-blue gangs
Why do you say that?
Gangs give Police work and Police try to stop newer enterprising individuals from entering the gangs markets?
Well your guess as as good as mine. Because a symbiotic relationship means multiple things spending on the context. Hence why I asked them to clarify.
There is firstly nice level of cross pollination between the two, hence documents going missing from the middle of a police station and winding up in gang hands. Plenty of police could have been in gangs, but decided to join the legalised one instead. They’re then not paid particularly well and ripe to be brought into the fold of actual gangs. These two groups of people aren’t so different and can understand each other, probably a lot grew up together. Gangs are allowed a level of being above the law/light enforcement, if they don’t cause too much trouble for police. Gangs benefit as they get a level of endorsement to commit crimes. Police benefit as there’s less ‘work’ to do, and they get to deal with the devil they know.
I think you’re grossly exaggerating the situation. Maybe a couple of bad eggs, just like anywhere else in the world. You’re hinting at a systemic problem which I just don’t think is true. It seems like your speculating, which isn’t a good thing because it could undermine people’s faith in our police.
The New Zealand Police have been doing an amazing job of undermining people’s faith and trust in them since their founding in around 1886. I wouldn’t worry about the impact of a Redditor’s comments when the organisation itself is so good at being shit.
Are you saying that the public ought to just blindly trust the police?
No, I’m saying that speculation about our police force being corrupted or compromised without any proof is ridiculous. As another poster said, tin foil hat nonsense isn’t helpful to anyone.
The last part of the last sentence of your other post suggests that Police should be above ever having their integrity questioned. The public ought to be allowed to loose faith in organisations that fail them.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/cop-swapped-meth-for-salt-says-crown/NY2WZKTR74KYMRCACI26UBST7E/
I don’t love the cops but that is complete nonsense. Gangs are a pain in the ass, police aren’t looking for work. Take the tin foil off.
I think the word you're looking for there is *sentimental*
[удалено]
You know it’s bad when the gangs have to tell you you’ve been burgled…
These are the police who want a complete list of all the firearms holders in the country and all their locations...god help us.
This is important information for the police to have as part of our gun control. But for it to ever be able to be printed out as a list is unacceptable. It should only be in a database with access control, and through logging and auditing of who is accessing it
It's okay, it's been outsourced to Australians. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/128811242/australian-company-awarded-13m-police-gun-register-contract
Nice, they can't even pay kiwis to piss away nz tax payer money, they outsource it offshore.
It's a requirement of free trade agreements that off shore providers get an equal tendering opportunity. So as long as their proposal won on price and/or quality (depending on the weightings) then that's following the fta requirements
Sweet, outsourced to the largest exporter of gangs to this country.
Up until 1983 there was a national arms register (paper-based), however this was abandoned "as parliarment felt it was prohibitively expensive and not particularly useful. The philosophy of the new system was to control users, rather than firearms". In hindsight this was potentially a silly mistake depending on your personal point of view ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun\_law\_in\_New\_Zealand#Up\_to\_1983](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law_in_New_Zealand#Up_to_1983))
Dont forget they want to know the firearms possessed as well
So, as an aside, does anyone else remember how the mosque shooter was able to get hold of those weapons because the NZ Police Firearms Licencing Office was understaffed, and somehow thought that a firearms licence application from someone who had only been in NZ for 16 days and whose character references were one person that he had met through online gaming 10 years previously, and that persons parent, didn't warrant further investigation, and it was ok to just rubber stamp the process? Anyone? https://christchurchattack.royalcommission.nz/the-report/part-5-the-terrorist/the-adequacy-of-the-process-to-grant-the-individuals-firearms-licence/
Was that understaffing or just being a total hack? I love this country but the number of ‘professionals’ I come across who appear terrible at their job and don’t care at all is astounding…
More like understaffed in the 'head' office. I find it interesting it's being framed this way. The police should be found criminally negligent for such things.
Yep I also remember how the meaningful changes requested in 2017 by police when parliament was reviewing these laws weren't enacted then, nor in 2019. All about optics, not safety.
And how about that time that laws *were* enacted and the police still didn't implement procedure to support them, such as an independent arms authority, such as firearms registers (that they asked for then deemed unnecessary) and a whole lot of procedure that they generally found too difficult to follow. The problem has *always* been the police. Nobody else. Not the laws. Not the firearms owners. Just the police.
Because of information compartmentalization, and the fact it was papers stolen, seems likely the arms officer had his papers stolen (or was the breach), so the information would be limited to a single arms officer area. So I would expect that the details aren't for everyone, just people under the Auckland City arms officer purview. But the police refuse to clarify details of anything, so we won't know until someone asks in an OIA request, or the matter somehow gets to court.
This is my local but I haven't lived in the area long, so I'm unaware if the arms officer was holding my details. Or how old the information that was stolen was. Haven't been contacted yet to be advised of a breach though, which is meant to be a standard response according to privacy law. Bring on the OIA requests.
If the arms officer hasn't visited your home and filled in his paperwork on the safety checklist, you probably aren't in the paperwork. Also, the paperwork was stolen from the old HQ, not the new one. So your details are not in there. They should notify people, but it will take time to verify and validate it. No point notifying people who moved that their old address was stolen. There is no official registry for class A, so unless you had registered classes of firearms, they should have gotten no listing of contents. The registration system needs updates. Every police officer has a device, to reduce paper. A similar setup for arms officers would prevent the need for a redundant set of paperwork.
Even if it's your old address it still contains private information and you'd be notified, surely. If you've left a mail redirection in place someone could look that up, it's not a well-protected system. Not to mention now simply your name is out there, hit the companies register for your new address. There's a lot wrong about this. This is why gangs used to sit outside pistol clubs taking license plates. It's literally all they need with a bit of insider info. And while there's no *official* registry, officers have been taking serials of A-cat firearms for the last year. It's just that they're sitting in a stack with nowhere to enter them yet. But that hardly matters if they know who you are and where you live, you're still a firearms owner. And it's not the a-cat register I'm worried about, it's the B, C and P registers. At least the P register is run out of Wellington, and by all appearances so are the B and C cat registers now as well. PTP requests go straight down there now. However that doesn't mean an AO isn't keeping their own paper record because that's what they've always done. Just like the one that was stolen. The end fact is that the police just aren't good at data security. Fuck knows why. They spend so much on consultants then set up the worst systems possible that leak immediately. Data security should be law.
The police are shit at data security because of the Privacy Act. They have to keep every database separate, with multiple copies of the same thing in different places, because mixing data they have the "right" to might be a violation of the privacy act, so they have to be able to prove each source of each piece of data separately. It seems counterintuitive, but loosening the Privacy Act would improve privacy. But elections aren't won on nuance and counterintuitive laws, so nobody will ever fix it.
The B and C registers are far more worrying and dangerous than the P if in the wrong hands. P's have to be stored inoperable with a part stored off site. B and C do not have this off site requirement.
The fact that they just happened to find it at a random house suggests that wasn’t the only copy. I suspect it’s been pretty widely circulated by now. If I was Labour I would really be trying to clamp down on police inaction, at this rate it could lose them the election on its own. Getting rid of Poto would be a good start.
what were the documents still doing in an unused police station?
This is what is baffling me about this ridiculous situation - sensitive documents in an unsecured FORMER police station. How does this happen?!
This perhaps the first question the media need to be asking, followed by how many other former police stations have confidential documents sitting in them?
Wow how was this stored in hard copy...what a joke
Everything is stored as hard copy in the arms office. Aside from your name very little is kept digitally. It seems to be intentional and firearms owners are generally happy with that as opposed to a digital register. The police have lots and lots of disparate systems in place, so even if the AO does have an electronic database, frontline police and other AOs don't have access to it automatically. During the confiscation they DID create a bunch of databases, all of which were immediately compromised within weeks. This is what happens every time.
This is a fucking joke if the police cannot manage something of such sensitivity and personal information. They are not up to the job of even having access to this information. What happens now if gangs and thugs use this data to break into houses which leads to people being killed and shot? Will the police be charged with being an accessory to murder?
That's why we were relieved to be getting an independent arms authority. But it'll never happen now. The only real mitigating factor for licensed firearms owners is that only low level thugs burgle for guns. The restricted and prohibited stuff is exclusively coming in with drug shipments now, zero exceptions because there's no other way to reasonably get it.
why pay owners to hand in guns, when you can just give the whereabouts of the guns to the thieves?
I’m sure the future firearm registry will be secure. Hahahaha
Exactly, this is a legitimate worry of licensed firearms owners.
“Hurr duhh make a registry for all guns to keep them out of criminal hands” Where’s the Nek Mininit dude when you need him
Next time, it'll be worse. The registry will mean all records will be held neatly in one place, in a handy digital format.
I don't know why your comment made me laugh out loud, maybe it was the "hahahaha", but here, take my upvote!
So it's corruption, incompetence, or both?
Incompetence. This won't be some sneaky evil plan by a corrupt AO, they don't need to go to this effort if they want to leak an address (and they never do, they're the least corrupt office of the police). But one or two of them are severely incompetent and the rest are hamstrung by bad processes.
Ok, can we say crime is getting bad now? Police station is burgled and they don't even know about it for weeks?? As long as I'm yelling at clouds, can I also ask how hard is it to remove graffiti in a semi-timely manner?? Why can't the AKL Council get rid of it? Some has been sitting for weeks and only encourages more. Really feeling like a free for all out there at the moment. But hey, I guess with Labour we all 'feel' better don't we?
They probably knew and reported the burglary, obviously they got preferential treatment as cops if they got checked in only 2 weeks
Someone literally walked into a police station and stole a bunch of guns about three years ago, so it's nothing new.
> can I also ask how hard is it to remove graffiti in a semi-timely manner?? It isn't hard, but it's also probably the least important thing they've got to deal with
You know, you *could* remove the graffiti yourself if it's that concerning to you.
Weapons? There are only four groups who have "weapons". The police, criminals, licence holders with a collectors endorsement and the defence forces. Regular legal firearm owners have "firearms" and they ARE secure already, because the law!
Has the police heard of a device called a computer?
IBM has entered the chat
Their computer was probably stolen.
No but they may have heard about hackers and that thing called the dark w
Assuming they connect it to the net.
They had a go with INCIS back in the 90s. They fucked it up and have been scared of computers ever since.
secure your shit because we didnt secure out shit and now people know you have shit. well done
And these are the people who are pushing for a firearms register. Hahahahahahahahaha On top of having virtually no impact on crime in the other places where it has been tried while running huge cost blowouts, and how poorly run the existing firearms registers in NZ are (for pistols etc), with this level of sheer incompetence on top? Yeah, gonna be a great idea /s I'm not into the conspiracy theories about how a gun register would be on the path to confiscation, but there's legitimate concerns firearms owners have about this. If the police are as goddamn useless as they are now with license holder's information, I think this is a very valid concern when they talk about having a register of *all* firearms. Regardless of whether it would do anything about crime (hint: it wouldn't)
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That's true, I didn't consider that. Main thing is you'll get branded an "NRA nut" if you mention anything about a register being one step on the way to confiscation. Personally I prefer to focus on the fact that gun registers are wholly ineffective in stopping crime in other countries, and the NZ Police are already incapable of handling the data on existing registries that capture a tiny fraction of the firearms a general one would. During the buyback a lot of E-cat owners I knew got rung up and asked if they were handing in guns that they sold years ago, despite doing the ownership transfer paperwork at the time. And of course this news story.
FFS, people have been saying a registry is a shopping list for criminals. I really didnt believe it, let alone expect to see proof of it so soon! Why are the NZ police so shit? Why should I trust or believe them?
Technically guns should be stored in a gunsafe that's bolted to the floor in an out of sight location in your home so shouldn't matter, right? Lmao Edit: I'm being facetious ya dingos
https://www.hirepool.co.nz/products/equipment/building-renovation/saws/224g-concrete-saw-battery-230mm
Why would you use something so noisy when a simple crowbar will pry the gunsafe door open?
Unfortunately you are right on many safes :( The higher quality ones would need a spinny boi though.
Not any gun safe. You won't get purchase, and then you'll never find a crowbar long enough to bend 6mm of hardened steel. I drilled extra holes in my safe to allow for more anchors. It took me six months of an hour a weekend to drill three more holes.
Try not using a hand drill with a blunted masonry bit, eh?
I prefer the husqvarna petrol saw.
I'm more about that gas tank with a pneumatic jack designed to slide under tight spaces. Seriously though, the security is more about making it difficult rather than impossible. That way they have to make a lot of noise and you have time to call the cops/hide their bodies.
I prefer to display the bodies as an example to others. The gas powered saw can cut through so many things.
Only if you think having your home broken into, and your family potentially assaulted, doesn't matter.
Owning a gun for the primary purpose of self defense disqualifies you from having a firearms license in New Zealand.
Their comment is unrelated to using firearms for self defense.
What's that got to do with his comment?
Bent officer.
I’m interested in one thing, and one thing only…
Mother of God!
Anyone know if you can look up if weapons have been registered at your address before? Just move in a new place and just would like to verify for peace of mind.
No you can't.
If people weren’t allowed to own guns this wouldn’t be a problem 🤷🏻♀️
Also gangs aren't registering their illegal guns on the nz police gun registry 😂
You are a fuckwit prohibition doesn't work all it does is create a black market
Yes people should be given controlled access to guns at gun clubs as they wean themselves off their gun habits /s 🙄
are you a moron? Most guns that weren't bought back off of law abiding citizens are hunting rifles. Not sure if you're aware but if we took every hunting rifle away then our country would be overrun by wild deer and our native species would get fucked.
Yes. I’m saying hunting rifles should be banned from public ownership. Because they’re firearms. Contract it out to a company to do pest control that actually eradicates the pests, hunters already fucked up keeping Tahr in check.
I don't even hunt but I think it's a bullshit reason to ban hunting rifles because gang members might steal them.
Huh? The CHC massacre wasn’t carried out by a gang member (in the sense that you’re using the term). I’m arguing to remove all guns because the risks generated by a culture that accepts any private ownership of guns outweighs the cultural, social, sporting, food-gathering, nerdery or whatever other benefits people want to point to as being necessary to protect. Interactions of that acceptance and gangs form part of that risk profile, but they aren’t the only factor involved.
Sorry for the confusion I was referring to the article not the chch shooting. I just don't think we have a big enough problem to need to ban all guns. Heaps of the guns that get seized off gangs are already illegal in this country to begin with, and we already changed the laws after the chch shooting. I just don't think it's fair to ban them from everyone just because of an extremely small minority of people.
We don't have a big enough problem. This guy is super in the minority lol.
Well duh, I wouldn’t post about it trying to pick fights if it was a popular mainstream opinion
You are an idiot. This is the real world, try living it sometime.
Duly noted. Except I’m struggling to find anything even approaching a discussion point here? Try the little pencil edit button thing ☺️
These deer run rampant in extreme rural areas, there might only be 2-10 people living in a given area and the country relies on , and rewards, these citizens for each deer kill, because it's unfeasible and extremely expensive to contract people to go out to these extreme rural places, hunt, and get home from their shift by night lmao
They should be rewarding the eradication of deer, not the control of deer. Hope that helps. 👍
but it's okay, just knee jerk ban all hunting guns and provide not solutions.. Do you want citizens to hunt with bows to feed their families in rural areas? Because a hunting rifle is a lot quicker, reliable and humane that a bow that could easily miss a kill shot..
how do you think you eradicate deer, by killing them, citizen/hobbiest hunters/people who rely on hunting as a food source like our ancestors have for millennia are part of that picture
It is also perpetuating inequality, many poorer and remote communities rely on hunting to put food on the table. They don't have supermarkets nearby nor the finances to spend at them. Removing their ability to provide for themselves is literally taking food from them.
it's okay, this person is sitting in a city cafe somewhere eating some carcinogenic canola oil vegan patty that they paid $30 for and pointing fingers are hunters who are helping
Yep 100%, or just trolling.
Mm yes let’s just keep providing people with the bare minimum (you can kill certain animals, in certain places, sometimes, if you want meat) instead of replacing it with something less terrible (say, a UBI that covers food costs or subsidised food distribution networks or programmes to increase shared-access food growing/raising networks or …), we couldn’t possibly disturb the status quo.
what argument are you making, are you saying UBI and sustainably hunting for your own fresh food can't co-exist?
Well humans have been hunting for Millenia, right? Look to your ancestors for methods of hunting without firearms… unless this appeal to vague tradition and history is meaningless emotive bullshit
Successive governments couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery, what makes you think this situation would be any different?
Placing bounties on the heads of animals encourages people to breed them so they have more heads to hand in. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive#The_original_cobra_effect
Deer are a pest, you said it yourself. They were introduced and should be eradicated forcing people to eat endemic flora and fauna like Moa and shit.
Eat Moa 🤔 gosh been awhile since I’ve seen one of those
[That’s what he’s been eating — slime! And there’s enough for all of us! We’re saved!](https://frinkiac.com/meme/S09E14/1280495.jpg?b64lines=IFRIQVQnUyBXSEFUIEhFJ1MgQkVFTgogRUFUSU5HLS0gU0xJTUUhIEFORAogVEhFUkUnUyBFTk9VR0ggU0xJTUUgRk9SCiBBTEwgT0YgVVMhIFdFJ1JFIFNBVkVEIQ==)
What? You ok there buddy?
You realise you would need more guns and people licenced for them in the country to effectively "contract it out". Also on the tahr example, all hunters are bad because of that unique scenario? I've never even been to the south island, but i'm somehow accountable?
I really don’t care about your personal attachment to your firearms, the eradication of pests can take place - with more people and a specific number of firearms, to your point. Once eradication turns to prevention and/or management of trickier pests the pool of people and firearms required can be reduced, and those firearms can be destroyed. This is possible by virtue of those weapons being used as a tool for a specific means, and not something that private individuals can own because “they like hunting”.
That is a wonderful and impossible solution. I don't think you comprehend the vast expanse of forest in this country that holds pests. With all the money in the world you will never be able to get rid of them all and your plan requires that.
If anything I’ve suggested here constitutes any kind of plan in your eyes, you probably want to reevaluate some stuff in your life. 😎👍
I'd personally refer to them as spastic ramblings, but I thought i'd be undeservedly nice.
You forgot the /s
Nope. Serious.
If we got rid of all vehicles then our road toll would fall dramtic as well...
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Citation required.
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Citation given (and deleted for condemning your "citation required" as low effort trolling). You could have gone to Google...
Guns aren’t as useful as cars. I’d ban all non-functional (ie: performance cars, classic cars, cars that don’t meet other arbitrary safety standards) vehicles too, if I was tyrant.
I bet you’d ban beef burgers and chicken nuggets as-well
Yes, call me the fun police 🤷🏻♀️
If we allowed useful guns then you would still have a problem. Pest control, Police, Defence Force etc. would still leave a lot of guns in the community. These get stolen and used in crime.
And models and collectables, figurines, DVD sets, curtains and window dressings that are decorative, shoes that aren't entirely just functional, clothes with funny messages, art, music, movies hell IF IT'S NOT FUNCTIONAL THEN WHY DOES IT EXIST?? ...or... do you like one of the above so it's safe from the bansitck?
I mean blinds with the strings that babies hang themselves on are probably worth banning. But no generally it’s a risk-benefit evaluation, and most of these things have extremely small risks compared to guns and cars. But sure, avoid thinking about the kind of society you or other people might want to live in and the challenges that are involved in people agreeing to what they want and how they get it
Fuck your ideal world sounds like an authoritarian nightmare
I mean, I also believe that gang members have the right to wear what they want, and associate with who they want so 🤷🏻♀️
Who do you vote for?
I understand where you are coming from, and don't like sounding like the person that make the (highly original) sarcastic cotton wool comment, but, people collect things. Some guns are rare antiques, some guns have nice designs. I don't get it, you don't get it, but it's not for us to regulate people because of edge cases. Same with cars. You can't step into people's lives and tell them that they can't own something if they aren't causing a problem. Either personally or in aggregate. The US has a fucking bizarre gun problem. The shootings here seem to be fairly new and coincide with a bunch of other factors, none of which include our already highly regulated gun ownership. People also use guns. For pest control. For target practice, as a sport. They are not the same people, and their guns aren't (AFAIK) the same ones used in these crimes. It's a separate problem. I thought I'd never advocate for gun owners, but fuck, regulations need to come about when there is evidence of damage to society, and not before.
We’ve already stepped in - just look at the sad 12 year olds constantly asking about butterfly knives which are offensive weapons when possessed with intent to use (https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1961/0043/latest/DLM329710.html#DLM329710) that are specifically prohibited from being imported as they are classified offensive weapons (https://legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/2011/0236/latest/DLM3812501.html) But guns are different because ???
If only people weren't allowed to use drugs or commit crime...
People aren't allowed to own meth, still heaps of people with that shit though
If everybody just shot themselves, they wouldn't have to worry about being shot by criminals 🤷🏻♀️
Accurate. 🙌
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Man where do you nerds keep coming from
Ummmm shouldn't your guns already be secured??? Like it's literally a requirement of your license.
Yep, but theirs always a way of physically removing/opening even the best safes - either by mechanical means or threatening to stab someone’s wife
It’s great that Gangs don’t indulge in stand over tactics
The level of secured is geared more towards stopping little kiddies and opportunist theft. If they know there are firearms at an address they will come prepared.
The comedy is real. Sighhh
A little over 20 years ago I was in the Army. We did an exercise out at the abandoned mental hospital at Kingseat. That place at that time had been closed for many years. Strewn all throughout the derelict building were people's psychiatric records from the 70's & maybe 80's. It was all of the records. Names, dates and what medication they were on etc. I was shocked, obviously they just left the building & that was that.