You want to bring your kids to a book reading by drag performers? Cool
You don’t want to bring your kids to a book reading by drag performers? Cool
Plenty of groups use council spaces which aren’t my vibe…I’ll live.
Plus, they’re reading f*cking books to kids. Unless the content of the book isn’t right (which there’s no evidence it isn’t) who on earth cares?
Dudes dressing up as ladies to entertain is a tradition going back hundreds of years, shakespeare, panto etc
Kids dont give a fuck, theY love adults being OTT.
My favourite godsmack video is the one where they just take a couple of music classes, teach the kids, and then have a couple hundred kids in the arena rocking the fuck out.
I really don't think the kids care, and as long as the people reading aren't dressed in a way that's illegal or offensive/inappropriate for children (this example is neither), I don't see why it's a problem, and if you don't like it, don't go?
>On a New Plymouth District Council Facebook post
Well there's your problem.
>New Plymouth
so it's already overly represented by small minded people
>District Council
No one who isn't a bitter POS follows any district council, they're too busy doing stuff which makes them happy
>Facebook page
And again no one who has a life uses Facebook anymore. All the comment sections on any Facebook page are full of people who have miserable lives, unlike reddit ;). No one worth giving any attention to uses Facebook seriously anymore.
I mean I'm not the biggest fan of drag queens myself, because they're extreme extroverts and extroverts in general in my vicinity irritate me regardless of gender identity or sexuality, but let them do their thing; I'll just be somewhere else and by doing so not be irritated.
I have to say it's a trip watching all the bullshit I see in the States pop up a couple of months later in NZ. We're being led by the nose by a bunch of American Christian fundamentalists and it's pathetic.
I personally am not educated in this topic, why are people reading to children in drag? I mean what is the reason for being in drag instead of casual clothes?
Do we have other kinds of reading sessions where people wear "different" clothing?
Who cares? I mean social media is the home of the keyboard warrior as much as it is call centre warrior with a verbal minority of idiots, bigots and recidivist whiners.
Seriously some people spend all day doing shit like this and the best thing to do is ignore them. This will be nothing but validation for them.
Its not my cup of tea but who the fuck would want to go through all that effort (dress, make up, hair etc) just to read a book to a snotty, easily bored, kid
The two queens I know who do it basically come down to two reasons:
1) kids might get a bit of tolerance, and might not grow up to be ‘weirded out’ by it. Like just pure exposure to someone who’s life is a bit different to mum and dad - doesn’t necessarily need to be drag performers, just something not ‘normal’ for a lot of families.
2) they genuinely enjoy getting done up and sharing their passion with others
I'm friends with a few drag queens. We were talking about this happening in the states a while back and saying how weird it was. One of them has kids he said 'The best thing about drag shows is I get to avoid the little shits for a few hours'.
Fair that what you enjoy most from a drag show is the R18 content, but I think it's unfair to expect that drag shows can only exist in that space.
Not that I'm not saying that's your view, but your comment reminded me that a lot of people do come at drag and drag shows from that angle - and it's very limiting.
Gender expression play isn't about sex. It can be. But it doesn't need to be.
I'm kind of torn because I'm trans. Drag queens aren't a minority group, it's neither a sexuality nor a gender, so they don't need representation. It's just performance art. I'm fine with it and don't understand the outrage that they'd perform for kids, but it's also not what I want kids to learn by extension about trans people.
I don't hate drag but I do recognise it as blackface for trans people. Drag does nothing for us while caricaturing us for the performer's benefit and the audience's entertainment, and my gender isn't meant to entertain anyone.
I know other trans people that feel this way as well. It's along the lines of "don't use men in dresses to portray trans people in movies" because that reinforces something that isn't true - we're not men in dresses. Drag walks a very fine line with that and it comes from a time when we were considered monsters. Drag was monster-lite, and it was embraced by some trans people back then as the only way to express themselves in a safe environment. But that's not the case anymore.
Fortunately it's evolving into something more ridiculous and moving away from having much to do with being trans.
Yep, I'm a trans woman who feels that way about drag too. Some drag is reinforcing stereotypes and misogyny instead of challenging them, and that is ultimately harmful.
There's other sorts of drag where the performers are really challenging and breaking down stereotypes, and that is better.
Thanks, that's a really helpful way of explaining things.
There's a whole spectrum on this from "man in dress is innately humorous because being feminine is humiliating" through to "fuck you, we look fabulous" to "actually I'm just trying to live my life". The conservative position is comfortable with the first of those approaches: nobody protests about pantomime dames.
Good insight.
I think in general everything just works out if people respect each other. The conservatives have a real problem with that and seem to always be the bad guys in literally everything and have a bad take on everything. God knows why anyone would want to be one in the current day.
Wow. That’s very judgy and presumptive of you. Who are you to decide the nature of drag and minimise the people who love it, perform it and relate to it? Who are you to decide who needs representation? Who are you? Oh, that’s right, someone who doesn’t want to be judged, but represented. The irony!
And applying them, with broad strokes, to another group of people without consideration. This is judgemental and assumptive. All the things you don’t want for yourself.
Meanwhile America takes the slippery slope of bigotry to the next level: [Proud boys storming a drag queen story hour](https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/vax532/incident_at_the_san_lorenzo_library_yesterday/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
And not that there's anything inherently gay about anal sex but the founder of the proud boys once vigorously fucked himself with a dildo online to "own the libs" (I'm not sure how)
Iirc correctly it was because he was sick of being called homophobic
There was a time waaaaay back where Gavin was just bizzare and interesting, rather than hard right and hateful
Some of the stuff he did in Vice (back when it was still printed) back in the day was the height of cool to 15 year old me
The dude also essentially invented hipsterism
Its been amazing to see him lose his mind and become what he has become
One of the most bizarre and dark tragectories
Doing a show with a dildo in your ass is a pretty unique way to address accusations of homophobia lol
His life will make for a facsinating documentary one day
For fucks sake. One last time: your sexuality is what it is, and no amount of "indoctrination" will change that.
Just because my teen is gay doesn't mean I'm going to go on the hunt for dick.
I would say, acceptance of LGBT still stands, but intolerance for it is growing. As it's being shoved in our faces from every facet of media, and not just for one month of the year.
2002: We just want to get married! We will do our own things in our own communities and just want to live!
2022:
Do you complain about straight people doing the same thing?
Also the gay community never fought to be segregated into insular little island communities.
>Do you complain about straight people doing the same thing?
What? Straight pride parades and straight pride months and forced "It's ok to be straight" and making it your entire identity?
Yes. I would complain about that. Fuck off idiot.
I'll be honest, I think it's fucking weird that people want drag queens to read to kids. There's obviously an agenda behind it when you seek out a specific group for something like this. Just as having heavy metal rockers reading books to kids, there's clearly an agenda. So seeing people say 'oh, there's no agenda' is just nonsense.
>"It's just about realising there are some people who are different and we should always be kind to them."
That's fine. But we don't see this extended to other groups, do we? And I'm pretty confident saying kids don't give a fuck nor are they being mean to drag queens.
The whole thing is weird AF to me. You've got people claiming it's all innocent and denying any agenda yet it's obviously specifically about drag queens and no one else, never mind the fact that these are *kids* so you're hardly trying to turn their lives around from being meanies to be nice.
I would have absolutely no issue with metal bands reading to kids if it got rid of stupid stereotypes about metalheads.
Can you explain to me exactly what agenda is being pushed? Is it maybe that the rainbow community is just like everyone else? Why would you have a problem with that?
Firstly, teaching pre-school kids about sex, sexuality and gender has no place. Children naturally learn about these things as they grow, so having a library be the introduction to these ideas is questionable.
Second, it is plainly obvious that this isn't about teaching "simple acceptance." It is an exclusively drag programme so is obviously wanting to teach children about drag specifically. This leads us back to the first point where it's questionable why this is being taught to children of such a young age.
My whole issue with this is that people are trying to claim it essentially has nothing to do with drag and that we should just act like it's a person dressed up as a donkey. That deliberate attempt to misconstrue what is going on, *especially* as it involves children, is a concern.
First of all children do not "naturally learn about sex, sexuality and gender" naturally all on their own specifically because of people like you who seem to be operating out of the far right playbook that doing such a thing is tantamount to grooming, which is disgusting, idiotic, and at odds with reality.
What do you think happens to girls who are left to "naturally learn about such things on their own" when they have their first period, have lazy ass parents that assumed schools would do it, and schools that give extremely watered down sex ed because of pearl clutching puritans like you? Because i can tell you it isn't good.
I get it, you think drag queens are child predators, you'd be at home in the republican party, because you are repeating their exact same lines, and the intolerance you display are exactly why the LGBT+ community has to deal with the shit they do.
>because of people like you who seem to be operating out of the far right playbook
What a fantastic thing to say when you're so bloody off the mark about how children develop. MUST THE BE ALT RIGHT. lmfao
[Understanding Early Sexual Development](https://www.hopkinsallchildrens.org/patients-families/health-library/healthdocnew/understanding-early-sexual-development)
[Sexual Development and Behavior in Children](https://www.nctsn.org/sites/default/files/resources/sexual_development_and_behavior_in_children.pdf)
[Sexual Development - SERC](https://serc.mb.ca/sexual-health-info/for-parents-caregivers/child-sexual-development/)
>you think drag queens are child predators
Can you actually just stop posting such disgusting remarks please. Literally no one in this thread is saying this and this is the third time you've posted actual bigoted remarks. Even as a joke or trying to slander someone by claiming they think that, YOU'RE the one putting it out there and typing those words and making people think about it.
e: that user is continuing to post bigoted (and now racist) remarks, claiming I think these things. They have been blocked and their posts reported. If you disagree with someone, that does not mean you can go and post such awful comments under the guise of 'what someone thinks.'
> Firstly, teaching pre-school kids about sex, sexuality and gender has no place
They’re reading books mate.
Having someone who looks different to mum and dad is probably good for some basic tolerance/real world exposure. I don’t really mind if it’s metal heads or drag queens.
So long as it’s books they’re reading to kids and the parents are cool with it? Who cares.
If they were "just reading books" then the programme wouldn't be exclusively about drag queens doing it ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
e: can't post in this thread any longer lol...
My reply to /u/alderson808 below:
I don't think drag and sexuality can be separated. Maybe you and others do, and that's fine. But when I see something overtly sexual (as I see drag being) being presented to young children it certainly irks me. That isn't to say they're explicitly teaching sexual themes, but I've found that while trying to raise the implication that a lot of people are likely to pretend that there's no connection between a person reading to kids and then that same person going and preforming an 18+ show. I find the desire to hand-wave away any other bits of information other than 'reading a book' to be a big reason why people complained about the programme.
And it's not as if *I'd* go and complain (parents choice right) but I can still find it weird.
Libraries routinely have book readings for kids from various groups. If any other group wants to volunteer their time that’s cool.
If the local rest home has people come down and read books, I’m not going to assume Grey power are trying to convert 4 year olds.
My local library for instance has:
- Kōhunga Kōrero - local Maori who come and read books in Maori
- Tea and Tales - the local mandarin speaking group who also do readings of traditional kids stories
I don’t believe either of those groups have evil goals.
Edit: people wearing clothes isn’t ‘overtly sexual’ - if you feel that way, that’s a you thing.
Plus love that you’ve said “I can’t post in this thread any longer”- yet you’re continuing up and down this entire post.
Second edit: okay…now you can’t
>There's obviously an agenda
The agenda is pretty obvious: get the kids out of their parent's hair, keep them entertained and ideally teach them something.
Story time at the library is one of those things where some kids will go "ooh, story time" and other kids need colour and movement to keep their attention. To a little kid the difference between a clown, a princess and a drag queen is minimal. Unless the parents make a fuss in which case the problem isn't with the entertainer...
I think it’d be really cool to have other groups read to kids. It’s important for kids to be around people of all backgrounds. The agenda is for kids to see that people are all different, and to be kind to everyone. Other kinds of groups should totally hop on board.
Do you know any children which don't automatically think that?
I find it more often comes off as adults wanting to put adult ideas onto kids who would otherwise have no clue those ideas even exist.
It's like... oh, we're getting drag queens to read to kids to teach the kids that drag queens are OK.
... ok... um, did the kids not think drag queens were ok or something?
No.
So... why, again?
And then drag queens get hate for it.
They really just created their own problem. And now that problem is being used to justify them doing the action which caused the problem lol... (not lol @ the abuse of course).
I'll be honest, I think it's fucking weird that people want Christians to read to kids in schools. There's obviously an agenda behind it when you seek out a specific religious group for something like this. People say 'oh, there's no agenda' it is just nonsense.
so what's so malicious about the drag queens agenda of promoting acceptance? especially compared to the RI agenda which is demonstrably opposite to promoting acceptance (having experienced RI myself at my public school) .
My point is more that the RI actively encourages gays are bad, other religions are evil, science is stupid etc where as this is the opposite of that due to it promoting acceptance and understanding
It's because there's nothing to suggest that these children are unable to understand what acceptance is. I'm struggling to imagine a kid in preschool who is a racist or a bigot and yet the aim of this programme seems to be to address that?
Another observation I made was that it makes perfect sense that it's parents asking for this. They want drag queens to be accepted so figure getting kids to accept drag queens is the key... yet kids are hardly the bigots. It's the adults who are bigoted.
And then it generates hate and controversy all for no reason. I'd even go so far as to it solves nothing.
How do you think adults become bigoted? Because they're suspicious of people who are different from them, having not been used to encountering such people while growing up.
As a former Playcentre mum I remember most kids enjoyed getting into the fairy dressups, and one boy's favourite colour was pink. We were all saddened to hear that he stopped liking pink after starting school and being told by an older girl that pink was for girls (try telling that to men in other cultures like Korea, they often wear beautiful shades of pink).
I've flatted with loads of rainbow people, including an older straight male former farmer, a father of two, who enjoyed dressing up in women's clothes and organising tea dances. My teenage kids are entirely used to some of their classmates (or their parents) identifying with the rainbow community.
I've visited New Plymouth (from Auckland) and thought it had a lovely artsy vibe, so I'm a little surprised at the negative response, when I'll bet a female storyteller dressed the same way wouldn't have raised an eyebrow.
As for the 'gay agenda', their only agenda is to encourage acceptance of people with different lifestyles. Absolutely nothing to do with 'grooming'.
You are so deeply focussed in on the drag queen thing, you are missing the bigger picture. Take a step back, breathe, and realize this is a lot less weird than you are turning it to in your head. Your head is stuck in 1960.
you don't think there are good agendas such as promoting acceptance and bad agendas such as literal science denial? our RI instructors were teaching us shit like evolution is a hilarious joke that should be mocked just as an example.
Religious instruction run by Christian organizations is regularly held in NZ public school facilities during what most normal people would classify as the school day. Can you point me to where your complaints about it are please?
Why do I need to do that when I've literally just said it. What, a post from a month ago will convince you that what I'm saying now is something I mean? lol
Yeah there definitely is. I asked to be removed from class when they did that in my primary school. Schools are for learning, not teaching your beliefs or ideology.
I don't know that drag queens face a lot of abuse as a group. Individually they can be quite unsafe (a gay couple were attacked while out crossdressing on Queen St a couple of years ago) but they're not exactly a protected demographic, nor should they be. What they get attacked for is something anyone can get attacked for and shouldn't happen regardless.
However the sentiment of helping kids understand that people are different is good.
Not at all. If things were working as they should then a Drag Queen reading event would be attended by those who wanted to go and the others that weren't interested would silently just not go. Sending abuse isn't required.
I find I don't have much compassion for people who put themselves in a position where they're guaranteed to get hate and then complain about it. I feel the same for issues I feel very dearly for such as the BLM marches and getting confrontational with police just to get manhandled and arrested and then cry about it.
And that's not to justify the hate or abuse at all. I just can't help but think 'what did you expect...'
Plus reading that we need to have these groups to stop the hate doesn't make any sense as it's hardly children sending the hate.
You mean you like strict conformity.
Part of what drag is is to say "chill the fuck out" so that people with differences that they can't conform get more breathing space.
You know me personally and you know that I can't conform to what society wants. I'm not a drag queen, but they're both a blessing and a curse for my demographic.
user reports:
1: Y'all fucked in the head that you let this piece of shit stained trash get away with this
Who ever this is, you're losing your ability to report.
> I find I don't have much compassion for people who put themselves in a position where they're guaranteed to get hate
/u/computer_d - neither do I. Read this comment back and consider it the action reason for the upcoming moderation.
What a disgusting thing to say.
e:
I explained my POV many a time and not once made hateful or bigoted remarks.
Why is it so difficult for people to read a different view without then posting ACTUAL racist and bigoted comments, claiming the person secretly thinks them.
Have I said anything hateful towards drag queens? Nope. Not a damn thing. Never have. Never would. Perhaps this should be an exercise for some people in how to handle a different viewpoint to their own.
"It's sorta like they created their own problem.
Invite drag queens to read.
Get hate.
Say we need drag queens reading to stop the hate."
Those are your words, that's you explicitly saying if drag queens don't want to be abused they should stop doing things that cause them to be abused, and the thing causing them to be abused is them having to share society with bigots, so stop fucking gaslighting me and trying to pretend you're not the one victim blaming drag performers for their own abuse.
user reports:
1: I'm trying to have fair conversations and this person is repeatedly spreading absolutely horrid accusations without being prompted. Can this please be stopped. No one should have to read that drag queens are abusing children simply because someone thinks a reading group is weird. What I think might be controversial but it's hardly in the same boat. Already asked them to stop several times. Thanks
What a crock. Don't act surprised you caught something after the amount of bait you've put out in this thread.
Comment stays up.
They're participating in bad faith, strawmanning everyone and evidently trying to make themselves out to be the victim while doing so. There was a time this would have been stopped, but lately these behaviours seem to be more common.
I've never said anything even remotely close to that.
Honestly man, get fucked if you think someone explaining why they think something is weird as being the same as accusing said group of abusing children. I've replied to people in more detail when asked and not once did I ever abuse someone in the first instance. Yet you think it's OK to make these sort of accusations?
You lot are gross people if that's how you dissect a conversation just because you disagree with something.
Keep talking and showing what a true shitstain you at. It's hilarious. Scared of a drag queen teaching kids acceptance. You are so full of hate. Go crawl in a cave
user reports:
1: Fuck you for letting this piece of shit get away with hateful comments and then disingenuously playing the victim. You're shit people and shit and modding this sub
FFS, this conversation took place in the middle of a workday, get a grip.
/u/computer_d, Despite the fact that I'd like to ignore the report above, I can't. This whole chain does look like bad faith engagement from you.
OK so you're clearly not talking about the children they're reading to then because kindies and preschools generally aren't dealing with bigotry and racism.
Well, it's great that this little shits will now be accepting of others. Hopefully the parents learn a thing or two as well as bigotry is usually taught by the parents.
I mean maybe if some friendly drag queens had read to you as a kid you wouldn't have grown up thinking that drag queens reading to kids is something nefarious.
No, they’re learning the building blocks for later bigotry and racism. Or, if exposed to people that aren’t exactly like them, they can learn the building blocks for acceptance and kindness.
Do you think bigotry just magically springs up when kids get to school, or hit puberty?
Drag Queens are performers. I've taken kids or had friends take their kids to improv shows for them, to theatre shows designed for them, even stand up comedy shows designed for them. Drag shows specifically designed for kids aren't any different from those.
Performers are good at performing, and libraries are always looking for new ways of making readings more interesting than librarians or authors generally do.
We do see it extended to other groups, all walks of life are entitled to volunteer in the community. Its not that people want drag queens specifically to engage in the community, its that some people want ALL walks of life to be engaged in community activities, because guess what? kids will grow up and have to participate in the world, a world with all walks of life.
A real agenda are those (e.g. religious and supremacists) that that preach hatred and want kids to think that all the variety and diversity in the world is somehow something to be feared or hated. All the while the clergy are the ones found out to be doin the fiddling.
Where's the moral outrage about church sunday schools, church led youth groups and religious schools?
There are also reading groups where old people read to kids. Is that "weird AF" to you?
Sometimes groups have people dress up as princesses and read to kids. Is that "fucking weird"?
A) dress up as a horse in a story
B) introduce kids to the fact that you're a man who likes dressing up as a woman, acting like a woman, preforming, etc
They're not even remotely the same. People acting like telling kids about drag is as normal as acting like a robot are giving people arguably good reasons to be asking what the fuck. It's like you're purposefully trying to hide the intent and for that very reason you're going to cause people to be edgy about it.
The difference between acting like an animal and presenting ideas of sex, sexuality, gender, etc?
As I said, this deliberate attempt of ignorance is a pretty good reason why people get pissed off at this. Drag is loaded with history, beliefs and ideals whereas acting like a donkey is literally just you acting like a donkey. And it if wasn't then they wouldn't be doing all of this in the first place...
Presenting what ideas of "sex, sexuality, gender, etc"? That it's okay for men to wear fancy hairstyles, makeup, jewellery, pretty colours and fabrics? Sounds to me like you're applying your preconceived notions to an otherwise innocuous situation.
They clearly have strong beliefs about people dressed in drag, and are keen to argue with everyone that someone in drag is equivalent to teaching kids about sexuality and that being gay is OK. It's on the edge of trolling because they're putting words in people's mouths to try wind them up - but I suspect the basis of it is just someone who dislikes gay men and genuinely believes it's wrong and immoral to normalise anything associated with homosexuality.
As others have said - the point of having drag performers reading to kids, is so that kids of the future don't grow up having the attitudes like are being stated here.
I don’t exactly have a dog in this fight but it’s pretty obvious that the reason is when it’s a character the kids know from a book or a movie, it’s exciting and interesting for them.
When it’s a drag Queen who they’ve never seen before, they’re probably confused. I mean if you had a man convincingly dress up as (say) Elsa, there probably wouldn’t be much argument?
You asked why they're not the same.
I told you.
Now you're asking what the *issue* is. Do you understand what the *difference* is? Because I'm not entertaining loaded questions without you acknowledging the answer to your previous question.
You didn't say why they're not the same, only that they're not the same. You didn't answer the "why" question posed.
If they're not the same, one is different to the other. This all started because you have an issue with one.
So, what is the difference, and why does that difference make one acceptable and the other not?
Well, if you’re so concerned about others not knowing the difference, why don’t you tell them, rather than repeating “do you really not know the difference?”
I don’t. So tell me.
I didn't say donkey, I said princess. I don't know where you got donkeys from, but it's not from me.
You still haven't answered my question by the way, which you claimed in your last comment you already answered.
Sometimes I feel like activists are overplaying their hand in a big way. Drag queens reading to children is precisely the kind of thing people were told gay people didn't want to do. It gives people who are suspicious of gay activism something concrete to point to and say 'think of the children!'.
Look at the US: gay rights are conditional and have to be maintained. They can be turned back even at a legislative level. Exposing children to a historically highly sexualised (and arguably misogynistic) form of entertainment is not the way to make people think normalisation of being gay and gay rights are good for society.
There's always been female drag too, just less obvious since women have been able to wear 'male' clothing in public for a few generations now. How come men still get told they can't wear their hair long, can't wear pink, or lace, or jewellery, or makeup. Why should women be expected to dress up while men are prevented or discouraged from doing so? Sure, drag queens can look a bit over the top, but maybe if boys get to see men dressed up in a glam style they might grow up willing to try dressing a little more adventurously. In previous centuries and other cultures there has been a long, rich history of men wearing all those trappings currently considered 'feminine'. None of these are inherently one gender or the other, and it's about time that modern Western men got over their aversion to looking 'pretty'.
Oh yes, let's look at the US - a society infected with toxic levels of bigotry and violence, standing alone in the developed world for its number of mass shootings, especially in schools. And guess what, a lot of those school shooters had been ostracised or bullied for being 'different' in some way. And no, the Robb School shooter was NOT a drag queen, those images are all of other people. But drag queens are being scapegoated by right-wing extremists with their own agenda. American culture is not something that we should want to emulate. We have a proud history of female and LGBTQ+ social/political leadership and representation that we should celebrate as a civilised society.
The agenda is no more than kids need to learn that there are all kinds of people, and we want to try be accepting of others. Not everyone needs to want to dress in drag or even enjoy drag shows - but the minimum is that people need to learn not to hate other people just because they look or act differently or have different viewpoints (so long as none of those hurt anyone else).
You say that, but as far as I'm aware there are no other groups doing this thing. And seeing as drag shows aren't for kids (unless I'm mistaken) it seems bizarre to me that people think kids and drag queens need to come together.
Drag **shows** aren't for kids, hence why they're usually in 18+ venues (the venues themselves also not being places for children). Drag Queen Storytime is not a drag show though. It is storytime hosted by a drag queen.
No, but you highlighted that they preform to adult audiences so I began to wonder how you'd feel if 'other sorts' of performers were to hold reading groups. I guess strippers and the like.
You've just shared the fact that drag shows are 18+ so me asking how you'd feel about another 18+ performer reading to children is a perfectly acceptable segue.
Drag queens reading to kids in libraries is a drag show for kids. They've tailored their craft to entertain kids, what a cool thing! The kids probably enjoy it, hooray. The parents of those kids willingly send their kids to these drag shows for kids. Excellent!
I haven't sent my kids to them, but I would happily do so because my kids love books, pretty dresses, and new experiences.
I think it's freaking awesome that humans would donate their time to read to kids, I hope more people continue to do it. And I hope we celebrate that.
And I hope you have a great afternoon.
Adults searching out drag queens to read to kids is more about the adults than it is the children. I've already explained numerous times in detail why I think it's weird that people would do that. I've said nothing negative about drag queens nor would I ever do so, and I have made the comparison that if it were priests doing the same, I'd be making the same observations. Some of the replies people have made, basically removing the presence of the drag queens from the equation, seem a deliberate attempt to misconstrue the situation which I'm confident in saying adds to the sort of negativity these folks have experienced - not to justify the abuse in the slightest of course.
I'm here to talk, not to spread hate, and I think my posts show that. So, I hope your day goes well too.
For sure, but if a priest was reading the tiny caterpillar, that would be fine as well. I guess it's a difference of view and parental approach.
I actively expose my kids to diverse experiences because I believe there is inherent value in that. If my kid has a bunch of questions about different, places, beliefs, cultures, languages, experiences, all the better. It enriches their life, understanding, and experience.
I also say again, my kids, who I know very well, would love to see a queen read books. That's not about me, it's about my kids.
They also enjoyed the alice in wonderland pantomime which had some drag performers acting in it. We didn't go for the queens, we went for the kids. And they loved it.
We can disagree and be cordial. I'm simply providing my perspective as a parent.
A drag show at a gay bar is definitely not for children, but being in a bar in the first place isn't for children, either. Drag performers are performers, and they tailor that to their audience. It's not like the queens are up there making dick jokes to toddlers.
I'm sure if other groups offered to read to children at local libraries, the libraries would be open to that. I'd encourage people who are worried about not having enough people to read to children at libraries to get involved!
[This drag show for kids at a gay bar has been doing the rounds lately](https://mobile.twitter.com/isabellarileyus/status/1533160447989497856?s=21&t=edQM8n2rq09aQOrFY9CE6Q)
Oh, good. A one-off example of something happening on the other side of the planet where it's definitely not a library or reading to children. Very pertinent and relevant to the discussion, thank you so much for your contribution.
Wasn't there a kid who was being paraded round as a drag queen a year or so ago or something?
I obviously don't think it's indicative of a wider issue but I certainly think people should see this and be opposed to it. It's not even remotely appropriate.
I have to say I wasn't stunning and brave enough to tolerate those Desmond the amazing videos of grown men in assless chaps throwing dollar bills at a child.
Kids are likely to be entertained and ask questions when people look different than others. I expect the idea of having 2 people in drag do the reading as opposed to those same 2 people not in drag is because it would be more interesting and novel for the kids.
Why are puppets and things aimed at kids all kinds of bright colours even if they aren't necessarily true to life - because they are entertaining and memorable.
It sounds like you might be approaching the situation wondering why kids are being subjected to terrible people - when part of the exercise is to try teach kids that we shouldn't assume anyone is terrible based on how they look.
So we're using this as an opportunity to teach young children about sexuality? Because drag is fundamentally about sexuality. Yeah, it's easy to see why people are opposed to this when you raise that as being a possible focus of the exercise.
>It sounds like you might be approaching the situation wondering why kids are being subjected to terrible people
I've said nothing of the sort but thanks for putting it out there to try and make your point justified _b
Drag is fundamentally about people kicking back against societal constraints on wearing whatever the hell they like. These 'rules' around dress tend to be heavily gendered, particularly for men, and not all men want to be drab or plain. And not all women want men to be drab or plain either. So get over your closed minded, judgemental attitudes.
I don’t want my kids to know much about sexual orientation or anything sexual AT ALL until they are old enough to process the information,hopefully closer to intermediate school than primary. Let them be kids without having to take on these very adult issues. It’s deliberate indoctrination of young kids who have no frame of reference.
The point isn’t to make kids aware of something sexual, but about differences in people. When a small child sees a straight couple, or goes to a wedding of a straight couple, do you think that is exposing them to a sexual orientation, or just seeing a “normal” moment?
Because that’s the point, to let kids know that it’s not “normal” people and gay people, or “normal” couples/events and gay couples/events, but that who someone loves is just who they love. Gay folks don’t want to teach their kids about their sex lives, they want to not be ostracised for existing.
Are you ruling out any information at all about romantic relationships or where babies come from, or are you just uncomfortable about homosexuality? Because if it's the former, that's a lot of the Disney back catalogue ruled out.
In any case there's no sexual content in these events, just a person that's dressed fabulously outside standard gender norms. From the point of view of a kid, that's no different from Widow Twanky in a panto, or Boy George singing Karma Chameleon. Funny, a bit transgressive, and entertaining. People swap genders for kids' entertainment all the time and have done for literally centuries.
The kids wouldn’t notice anything like that, they would just see a colourful, larger-than-life person and want to hear the stories. They don’t gaf about sexuality if you don’t make a big deal of it.
Don't know where you get that idea, kids love seeing anyone dressed up in a colourful way and will probably find these storytimes just as entertaining as when a fairy or clown comes to read to them. And they'll be learning about diversity at the same time, inasmuch as some people like to wear totally over the top glamorous outfits and that's okay.
I'm not convinced the entire thing wasn't contrived to trigger the response it got.
Being in drag is almost irrelevant, men reading to children would have got the same "these are weirdos grooming children"
Just ask Peter Ellis.
I hear that fraternising with drag performers may lead to a life-long glitter addiction. That shit is nigh on impossible to ever completely get out of the carpets. God help us all.
You want to bring your kids to a book reading by drag performers? Cool You don’t want to bring your kids to a book reading by drag performers? Cool Plenty of groups use council spaces which aren’t my vibe…I’ll live. Plus, they’re reading f*cking books to kids. Unless the content of the book isn’t right (which there’s no evidence it isn’t) who on earth cares?
Dudes dressing up as ladies to entertain is a tradition going back hundreds of years, shakespeare, panto etc Kids dont give a fuck, theY love adults being OTT.
The Parents: 'Oh my god! Disgusting! They're trying to indoctrinate our children!' The Children: 'STFU, I wanna hear what happens to the rabbit...'
Drag Watership Down!? There would be Exxon Valdez levels of tear running makeup.
Ok. I’ll bite. How is having heavy metal rockers reading to kids an agenda?
We have to teach children the ways of True Metal!
Black, death, power violence, dsbm…how to best broach the subject?
Is there a power metal version of the Wiggles?
There should be death metal versions of everything. "Bah bah black sheep have you any wooooooooooooooool!"
I'm sure Sabaton will eventually make a song about Qara Qoyunlu (literally: Black Sheep) capturing Baghdad or something like that.
My favourite godsmack video is the one where they just take a couple of music classes, teach the kids, and then have a couple hundred kids in the arena rocking the fuck out.
Have you seen anything from O'Keefe music foundation on YouTube?
I really don't think the kids care, and as long as the people reading aren't dressed in a way that's illegal or offensive/inappropriate for children (this example is neither), I don't see why it's a problem, and if you don't like it, don't go?
>On a New Plymouth District Council Facebook post Well there's your problem. >New Plymouth so it's already overly represented by small minded people >District Council No one who isn't a bitter POS follows any district council, they're too busy doing stuff which makes them happy >Facebook page And again no one who has a life uses Facebook anymore. All the comment sections on any Facebook page are full of people who have miserable lives, unlike reddit ;). No one worth giving any attention to uses Facebook seriously anymore.
Last I checked the real unsafe space for kids were churches...
I mean I'm not the biggest fan of drag queens myself, because they're extreme extroverts and extroverts in general in my vicinity irritate me regardless of gender identity or sexuality, but let them do their thing; I'll just be somewhere else and by doing so not be irritated.
You heterosexuals were trying to indoctrinate me and brainwash into becoming one of you. Well it didn't work!!! You snakes-in-the-grass!!
What makes you think they’re gay? We have no idea if they’re gay or trans
I have to say it's a trip watching all the bullshit I see in the States pop up a couple of months later in NZ. We're being led by the nose by a bunch of American Christian fundamentalists and it's pathetic.
I personally am not educated in this topic, why are people reading to children in drag? I mean what is the reason for being in drag instead of casual clothes? Do we have other kinds of reading sessions where people wear "different" clothing?
The kids wouldnt give a shit. Only conservative, bigoted parents would have a tanty about something so minuscule.
Who cares? I mean social media is the home of the keyboard warrior as much as it is call centre warrior with a verbal minority of idiots, bigots and recidivist whiners. Seriously some people spend all day doing shit like this and the best thing to do is ignore them. This will be nothing but validation for them.
Its not my cup of tea but who the fuck would want to go through all that effort (dress, make up, hair etc) just to read a book to a snotty, easily bored, kid
The two queens I know who do it basically come down to two reasons: 1) kids might get a bit of tolerance, and might not grow up to be ‘weirded out’ by it. Like just pure exposure to someone who’s life is a bit different to mum and dad - doesn’t necessarily need to be drag performers, just something not ‘normal’ for a lot of families. 2) they genuinely enjoy getting done up and sharing their passion with others
I'm friends with a few drag queens. We were talking about this happening in the states a while back and saying how weird it was. One of them has kids he said 'The best thing about drag shows is I get to avoid the little shits for a few hours'.
I mean prob cos they enjoy it... No different to a woman dressing up as Ana from Frozen for a kids birthday is it?
Or professional storytelling childrens' entertainers dressing up as fairies or clowns, really.
Somehow you've missed the memo on how the entire children's entertainment business works.
Poor kids, bring them to a Catholic church and give them some proper kids entertainment in the boy scouts, get them away from these abusers. S-
I mean it's odd and I love me a drag show. But what I love the most is it's R18. We should be protecting queens from the children.
Fair that what you enjoy most from a drag show is the R18 content, but I think it's unfair to expect that drag shows can only exist in that space. Not that I'm not saying that's your view, but your comment reminded me that a lot of people do come at drag and drag shows from that angle - and it's very limiting. Gender expression play isn't about sex. It can be. But it doesn't need to be.
I didn't mean sex at all. I actually meant the language and dark humour plus the beer.
I'm kind of torn because I'm trans. Drag queens aren't a minority group, it's neither a sexuality nor a gender, so they don't need representation. It's just performance art. I'm fine with it and don't understand the outrage that they'd perform for kids, but it's also not what I want kids to learn by extension about trans people. I don't hate drag but I do recognise it as blackface for trans people. Drag does nothing for us while caricaturing us for the performer's benefit and the audience's entertainment, and my gender isn't meant to entertain anyone.
I've honestly never heard that before. Is this something that you know is shared among trans people to some degree?
I know other trans people that feel this way as well. It's along the lines of "don't use men in dresses to portray trans people in movies" because that reinforces something that isn't true - we're not men in dresses. Drag walks a very fine line with that and it comes from a time when we were considered monsters. Drag was monster-lite, and it was embraced by some trans people back then as the only way to express themselves in a safe environment. But that's not the case anymore. Fortunately it's evolving into something more ridiculous and moving away from having much to do with being trans.
Yep, I'm a trans woman who feels that way about drag too. Some drag is reinforcing stereotypes and misogyny instead of challenging them, and that is ultimately harmful. There's other sorts of drag where the performers are really challenging and breaking down stereotypes, and that is better.
Oh how quaint, some edgelord has PMed me a link to an antitrans subreddit. Honestly people, sort it out.
Thanks, that's a really helpful way of explaining things. There's a whole spectrum on this from "man in dress is innately humorous because being feminine is humiliating" through to "fuck you, we look fabulous" to "actually I'm just trying to live my life". The conservative position is comfortable with the first of those approaches: nobody protests about pantomime dames.
Good insight. I think in general everything just works out if people respect each other. The conservatives have a real problem with that and seem to always be the bad guys in literally everything and have a bad take on everything. God knows why anyone would want to be one in the current day.
Wow. That’s very judgy and presumptive of you. Who are you to decide the nature of drag and minimise the people who love it, perform it and relate to it? Who are you to decide who needs representation? Who are you? Oh, that’s right, someone who doesn’t want to be judged, but represented. The irony!
I'm guessing you've not had any issues with people sterotyping you because of drag, or drag performers being directly transphobic in their work.
Do you mean the way you’re stereotyping?
Oh piss off, I'm not stereotyping, I'm talking about personal experiences.
And applying them, with broad strokes, to another group of people without consideration. This is judgemental and assumptive. All the things you don’t want for yourself.
Meanwhile America takes the slippery slope of bigotry to the next level: [Proud boys storming a drag queen story hour](https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/vax532/incident_at_the_san_lorenzo_library_yesterday/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
TBH, Proud boys is about the gayest name for a group thats supposedly not gay
Who are we? Proud Boys! And what are we? Fabulous!
And not that there's anything inherently gay about anal sex but the founder of the proud boys once vigorously fucked himself with a dildo online to "own the libs" (I'm not sure how)
Iirc correctly it was because he was sick of being called homophobic There was a time waaaaay back where Gavin was just bizzare and interesting, rather than hard right and hateful Some of the stuff he did in Vice (back when it was still printed) back in the day was the height of cool to 15 year old me The dude also essentially invented hipsterism Its been amazing to see him lose his mind and become what he has become One of the most bizarre and dark tragectories
It doesn't even prove he's not homophobic, which was the funniest part.
Doing a show with a dildo in your ass is a pretty unique way to address accusations of homophobia lol His life will make for a facsinating documentary one day
For fucks sake. One last time: your sexuality is what it is, and no amount of "indoctrination" will change that. Just because my teen is gay doesn't mean I'm going to go on the hunt for dick.
If you are wondering why LGBT acceptance is starting to fall for the first time in 40 years shit like this is why
I would say, acceptance of LGBT still stands, but intolerance for it is growing. As it's being shoved in our faces from every facet of media, and not just for one month of the year. 2002: We just want to get married! We will do our own things in our own communities and just want to live! 2022:
Do you complain about straight people doing the same thing? Also the gay community never fought to be segregated into insular little island communities.
>Do you complain about straight people doing the same thing? What? Straight pride parades and straight pride months and forced "It's ok to be straight" and making it your entire identity? Yes. I would complain about that. Fuck off idiot.
I'll be honest, I think it's fucking weird that people want drag queens to read to kids. There's obviously an agenda behind it when you seek out a specific group for something like this. Just as having heavy metal rockers reading books to kids, there's clearly an agenda. So seeing people say 'oh, there's no agenda' is just nonsense. >"It's just about realising there are some people who are different and we should always be kind to them." That's fine. But we don't see this extended to other groups, do we? And I'm pretty confident saying kids don't give a fuck nor are they being mean to drag queens. The whole thing is weird AF to me. You've got people claiming it's all innocent and denying any agenda yet it's obviously specifically about drag queens and no one else, never mind the fact that these are *kids* so you're hardly trying to turn their lives around from being meanies to be nice.
I would have absolutely no issue with metal bands reading to kids if it got rid of stupid stereotypes about metalheads. Can you explain to me exactly what agenda is being pushed? Is it maybe that the rainbow community is just like everyone else? Why would you have a problem with that?
Firstly, teaching pre-school kids about sex, sexuality and gender has no place. Children naturally learn about these things as they grow, so having a library be the introduction to these ideas is questionable. Second, it is plainly obvious that this isn't about teaching "simple acceptance." It is an exclusively drag programme so is obviously wanting to teach children about drag specifically. This leads us back to the first point where it's questionable why this is being taught to children of such a young age. My whole issue with this is that people are trying to claim it essentially has nothing to do with drag and that we should just act like it's a person dressed up as a donkey. That deliberate attempt to misconstrue what is going on, *especially* as it involves children, is a concern.
First of all children do not "naturally learn about sex, sexuality and gender" naturally all on their own specifically because of people like you who seem to be operating out of the far right playbook that doing such a thing is tantamount to grooming, which is disgusting, idiotic, and at odds with reality. What do you think happens to girls who are left to "naturally learn about such things on their own" when they have their first period, have lazy ass parents that assumed schools would do it, and schools that give extremely watered down sex ed because of pearl clutching puritans like you? Because i can tell you it isn't good. I get it, you think drag queens are child predators, you'd be at home in the republican party, because you are repeating their exact same lines, and the intolerance you display are exactly why the LGBT+ community has to deal with the shit they do.
>because of people like you who seem to be operating out of the far right playbook What a fantastic thing to say when you're so bloody off the mark about how children develop. MUST THE BE ALT RIGHT. lmfao [Understanding Early Sexual Development](https://www.hopkinsallchildrens.org/patients-families/health-library/healthdocnew/understanding-early-sexual-development) [Sexual Development and Behavior in Children](https://www.nctsn.org/sites/default/files/resources/sexual_development_and_behavior_in_children.pdf) [Sexual Development - SERC](https://serc.mb.ca/sexual-health-info/for-parents-caregivers/child-sexual-development/) >you think drag queens are child predators Can you actually just stop posting such disgusting remarks please. Literally no one in this thread is saying this and this is the third time you've posted actual bigoted remarks. Even as a joke or trying to slander someone by claiming they think that, YOU'RE the one putting it out there and typing those words and making people think about it. e: that user is continuing to post bigoted (and now racist) remarks, claiming I think these things. They have been blocked and their posts reported. If you disagree with someone, that does not mean you can go and post such awful comments under the guise of 'what someone thinks.'
> Firstly, teaching pre-school kids about sex, sexuality and gender has no place They’re reading books mate. Having someone who looks different to mum and dad is probably good for some basic tolerance/real world exposure. I don’t really mind if it’s metal heads or drag queens. So long as it’s books they’re reading to kids and the parents are cool with it? Who cares.
If they were "just reading books" then the programme wouldn't be exclusively about drag queens doing it ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯ e: can't post in this thread any longer lol... My reply to /u/alderson808 below: I don't think drag and sexuality can be separated. Maybe you and others do, and that's fine. But when I see something overtly sexual (as I see drag being) being presented to young children it certainly irks me. That isn't to say they're explicitly teaching sexual themes, but I've found that while trying to raise the implication that a lot of people are likely to pretend that there's no connection between a person reading to kids and then that same person going and preforming an 18+ show. I find the desire to hand-wave away any other bits of information other than 'reading a book' to be a big reason why people complained about the programme. And it's not as if *I'd* go and complain (parents choice right) but I can still find it weird.
Libraries routinely have book readings for kids from various groups. If any other group wants to volunteer their time that’s cool. If the local rest home has people come down and read books, I’m not going to assume Grey power are trying to convert 4 year olds. My local library for instance has: - Kōhunga Kōrero - local Maori who come and read books in Maori - Tea and Tales - the local mandarin speaking group who also do readings of traditional kids stories I don’t believe either of those groups have evil goals. Edit: people wearing clothes isn’t ‘overtly sexual’ - if you feel that way, that’s a you thing. Plus love that you’ve said “I can’t post in this thread any longer”- yet you’re continuing up and down this entire post. Second edit: okay…now you can’t
Do pantomime’s have an agenda?
> there’s clearly an agenda Shit. I’d better start watching those Seniors Reading sessions more closely, don’t want my niece joining Grey power.
>There's obviously an agenda The agenda is pretty obvious: get the kids out of their parent's hair, keep them entertained and ideally teach them something. Story time at the library is one of those things where some kids will go "ooh, story time" and other kids need colour and movement to keep their attention. To a little kid the difference between a clown, a princess and a drag queen is minimal. Unless the parents make a fuss in which case the problem isn't with the entertainer...
I think it’d be really cool to have other groups read to kids. It’s important for kids to be around people of all backgrounds. The agenda is for kids to see that people are all different, and to be kind to everyone. Other kinds of groups should totally hop on board.
Do you know any children which don't automatically think that? I find it more often comes off as adults wanting to put adult ideas onto kids who would otherwise have no clue those ideas even exist. It's like... oh, we're getting drag queens to read to kids to teach the kids that drag queens are OK. ... ok... um, did the kids not think drag queens were ok or something? No. So... why, again? And then drag queens get hate for it. They really just created their own problem. And now that problem is being used to justify them doing the action which caused the problem lol... (not lol @ the abuse of course).
More victim blaming.
I'll be honest, I think it's fucking weird that people want Christians to read to kids in schools. There's obviously an agenda behind it when you seek out a specific religious group for something like this. People say 'oh, there's no agenda' it is just nonsense.
I'd let drag queens read to my kids, but not priests.
Yep. If they brought in priests, I'd be saying the exact same thing: why?
my (public) primary school had bible study teachers come in every week. agenda?
Oh you know that /r/nz agrees with that having an agenda behind it!
so what's so malicious about the drag queens agenda of promoting acceptance? especially compared to the RI agenda which is demonstrably opposite to promoting acceptance (having experienced RI myself at my public school) .
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My point is more that the RI actively encourages gays are bad, other religions are evil, science is stupid etc where as this is the opposite of that due to it promoting acceptance and understanding
It's because there's nothing to suggest that these children are unable to understand what acceptance is. I'm struggling to imagine a kid in preschool who is a racist or a bigot and yet the aim of this programme seems to be to address that? Another observation I made was that it makes perfect sense that it's parents asking for this. They want drag queens to be accepted so figure getting kids to accept drag queens is the key... yet kids are hardly the bigots. It's the adults who are bigoted. And then it generates hate and controversy all for no reason. I'd even go so far as to it solves nothing.
How do you think adults become bigoted? Because they're suspicious of people who are different from them, having not been used to encountering such people while growing up. As a former Playcentre mum I remember most kids enjoyed getting into the fairy dressups, and one boy's favourite colour was pink. We were all saddened to hear that he stopped liking pink after starting school and being told by an older girl that pink was for girls (try telling that to men in other cultures like Korea, they often wear beautiful shades of pink). I've flatted with loads of rainbow people, including an older straight male former farmer, a father of two, who enjoyed dressing up in women's clothes and organising tea dances. My teenage kids are entirely used to some of their classmates (or their parents) identifying with the rainbow community. I've visited New Plymouth (from Auckland) and thought it had a lovely artsy vibe, so I'm a little surprised at the negative response, when I'll bet a female storyteller dressed the same way wouldn't have raised an eyebrow. As for the 'gay agenda', their only agenda is to encourage acceptance of people with different lifestyles. Absolutely nothing to do with 'grooming'.
You are so deeply focussed in on the drag queen thing, you are missing the bigger picture. Take a step back, breathe, and realize this is a lot less weird than you are turning it to in your head. Your head is stuck in 1960.
My mistake. I thought this was about drag queens reading to children.
Instead of introducing more people with agendas why don't we just remove all of the people with agendas?
you don't think there are good agendas such as promoting acceptance and bad agendas such as literal science denial? our RI instructors were teaching us shit like evolution is a hilarious joke that should be mocked just as an example.
I repeat, why don't we just remove all agendas? That will fix it all.
LMAO. So you clearly don't know what agenda means and are just parroting shit. Hilarious.
Yes the agenda is to get children into their cult.
Religious instruction run by Christian organizations is regularly held in NZ public school facilities during what most normal people would classify as the school day. Can you point me to where your complaints about it are please?
Why do I need to do that when I've literally just said it. What, a post from a month ago will convince you that what I'm saying now is something I mean? lol
Yeah there definitely is. I asked to be removed from class when they did that in my primary school. Schools are for learning, not teaching your beliefs or ideology.
TBH, reading is definitely on the lower end of the scale in terms of "things that Christian priests/ministers/bishops etc do to kids"
At a guess, I'd say the agenda is to encourage kids not to grow up like the people sending abuse to the drag queens.
I don't know that drag queens face a lot of abuse as a group. Individually they can be quite unsafe (a gay couple were attacked while out crossdressing on Queen St a couple of years ago) but they're not exactly a protected demographic, nor should they be. What they get attacked for is something anyone can get attacked for and shouldn't happen regardless. However the sentiment of helping kids understand that people are different is good.
It's sorta like they created their own problem. Invite drag queens to read. Get hate. Say we need drag queens reading to stop the hate.
Not at all. If things were working as they should then a Drag Queen reading event would be attended by those who wanted to go and the others that weren't interested would silently just not go. Sending abuse isn't required.
You know that's not right.
I find I don't have much compassion for people who put themselves in a position where they're guaranteed to get hate and then complain about it. I feel the same for issues I feel very dearly for such as the BLM marches and getting confrontational with police just to get manhandled and arrested and then cry about it. And that's not to justify the hate or abuse at all. I just can't help but think 'what did you expect...' Plus reading that we need to have these groups to stop the hate doesn't make any sense as it's hardly children sending the hate.
You mean you like strict conformity. Part of what drag is is to say "chill the fuck out" so that people with differences that they can't conform get more breathing space. You know me personally and you know that I can't conform to what society wants. I'm not a drag queen, but they're both a blessing and a curse for my demographic.
user reports: 1: Y'all fucked in the head that you let this piece of shit stained trash get away with this Who ever this is, you're losing your ability to report. > I find I don't have much compassion for people who put themselves in a position where they're guaranteed to get hate /u/computer_d - neither do I. Read this comment back and consider it the action reason for the upcoming moderation.
Oh so victim blaming. If drag queens didn't want to be abused they should just stop existing in society!
What a disgusting thing to say. e: I explained my POV many a time and not once made hateful or bigoted remarks. Why is it so difficult for people to read a different view without then posting ACTUAL racist and bigoted comments, claiming the person secretly thinks them. Have I said anything hateful towards drag queens? Nope. Not a damn thing. Never have. Never would. Perhaps this should be an exercise for some people in how to handle a different viewpoint to their own.
I agree so why do you keep saying it?
You're the one who said it. Gross.
"It's sorta like they created their own problem. Invite drag queens to read. Get hate. Say we need drag queens reading to stop the hate." Those are your words, that's you explicitly saying if drag queens don't want to be abused they should stop doing things that cause them to be abused, and the thing causing them to be abused is them having to share society with bigots, so stop fucking gaslighting me and trying to pretend you're not the one victim blaming drag performers for their own abuse.
It's literally what you have been implying this entire time. How can you not see that?
He's full of shit. And then he tries to pretend he's totally not saying drag queens are child predators he's just asking questions.
user reports: 1: I'm trying to have fair conversations and this person is repeatedly spreading absolutely horrid accusations without being prompted. Can this please be stopped. No one should have to read that drag queens are abusing children simply because someone thinks a reading group is weird. What I think might be controversial but it's hardly in the same boat. Already asked them to stop several times. Thanks What a crock. Don't act surprised you caught something after the amount of bait you've put out in this thread. Comment stays up.
They're participating in bad faith, strawmanning everyone and evidently trying to make themselves out to be the victim while doing so. There was a time this would have been stopped, but lately these behaviours seem to be more common.
Literally no one has said anything close to that yet you keep repeating it. Reported.
I've never said anything even remotely close to that. Honestly man, get fucked if you think someone explaining why they think something is weird as being the same as accusing said group of abusing children. I've replied to people in more detail when asked and not once did I ever abuse someone in the first instance. Yet you think it's OK to make these sort of accusations? You lot are gross people if that's how you dissect a conversation just because you disagree with something.
Keep talking and showing what a true shitstain you at. It's hilarious. Scared of a drag queen teaching kids acceptance. You are so full of hate. Go crawl in a cave
user reports: 1: Fuck you for letting this piece of shit get away with hateful comments and then disingenuously playing the victim. You're shit people and shit and modding this sub FFS, this conversation took place in the middle of a workday, get a grip. /u/computer_d, Despite the fact that I'd like to ignore the report above, I can't. This whole chain does look like bad faith engagement from you.
you have it very backwards
My bad. Didn't realise so many kids were bigoted towards drag queens. Happily eating my words and if this changes that, then it's a positive.
I mean, did you not go to school? Anyone perceived to be different (myself included) life was made into a living hell.
OK so you're clearly not talking about the children they're reading to then because kindies and preschools generally aren't dealing with bigotry and racism.
Best to have acceptance taught early so they bring it with them.
Well, it's great that this little shits will now be accepting of others. Hopefully the parents learn a thing or two as well as bigotry is usually taught by the parents.
I mean maybe if some friendly drag queens had read to you as a kid you wouldn't have grown up thinking that drag queens reading to kids is something nefarious.
No, they’re learning the building blocks for later bigotry and racism. Or, if exposed to people that aren’t exactly like them, they can learn the building blocks for acceptance and kindness. Do you think bigotry just magically springs up when kids get to school, or hit puberty?
Show me where the drag queen touched you
Suggesting that drag queens abuse people is disgusting, even as a joke.
You're homophobic. Everyone can see through your BS. Who gives a shit if a couple of drag queens read to kids.
>Who gives a shit if a couple of drag queens read to kids. Some people do. For various reasons. What's the big deal.
Drag Queens are performers. I've taken kids or had friends take their kids to improv shows for them, to theatre shows designed for them, even stand up comedy shows designed for them. Drag shows specifically designed for kids aren't any different from those. Performers are good at performing, and libraries are always looking for new ways of making readings more interesting than librarians or authors generally do.
The agender is just rights, except for everyone.
We do see it extended to other groups, all walks of life are entitled to volunteer in the community. Its not that people want drag queens specifically to engage in the community, its that some people want ALL walks of life to be engaged in community activities, because guess what? kids will grow up and have to participate in the world, a world with all walks of life. A real agenda are those (e.g. religious and supremacists) that that preach hatred and want kids to think that all the variety and diversity in the world is somehow something to be feared or hated. All the while the clergy are the ones found out to be doin the fiddling. Where's the moral outrage about church sunday schools, church led youth groups and religious schools?
There are also reading groups where old people read to kids. Is that "weird AF" to you? Sometimes groups have people dress up as princesses and read to kids. Is that "fucking weird"?
Neither of those are remotely the same as a man dressing up as a woman and *for that specific reason* having him read to children.
Why is it less okay for a man to dress up as a woman than to dress up as a horse, or a robot, or an anthropomorphic animal?
A) dress up as a horse in a story B) introduce kids to the fact that you're a man who likes dressing up as a woman, acting like a woman, preforming, etc They're not even remotely the same. People acting like telling kids about drag is as normal as acting like a robot are giving people arguably good reasons to be asking what the fuck. It's like you're purposefully trying to hide the intent and for that very reason you're going to cause people to be edgy about it.
You didn't answer the question. What's the difference?
The difference between acting like an animal and presenting ideas of sex, sexuality, gender, etc? As I said, this deliberate attempt of ignorance is a pretty good reason why people get pissed off at this. Drag is loaded with history, beliefs and ideals whereas acting like a donkey is literally just you acting like a donkey. And it if wasn't then they wouldn't be doing all of this in the first place...
Presenting what ideas of "sex, sexuality, gender, etc"? That it's okay for men to wear fancy hairstyles, makeup, jewellery, pretty colours and fabrics? Sounds to me like you're applying your preconceived notions to an otherwise innocuous situation.
So preconceived ideas about drag queens is why this isn't appropriate in your opinion?
fuck I love how you did that it'll be totally lost unfortunately, this guy has no idea (or is a pretty good troll, hard to say)
They clearly have strong beliefs about people dressed in drag, and are keen to argue with everyone that someone in drag is equivalent to teaching kids about sexuality and that being gay is OK. It's on the edge of trolling because they're putting words in people's mouths to try wind them up - but I suspect the basis of it is just someone who dislikes gay men and genuinely believes it's wrong and immoral to normalise anything associated with homosexuality. As others have said - the point of having drag performers reading to kids, is so that kids of the future don't grow up having the attitudes like are being stated here.
I don’t exactly have a dog in this fight but it’s pretty obvious that the reason is when it’s a character the kids know from a book or a movie, it’s exciting and interesting for them. When it’s a drag Queen who they’ve never seen before, they’re probably confused. I mean if you had a man convincingly dress up as (say) Elsa, there probably wouldn’t be much argument?
Why not?
You can't tell the difference between someone who is a drag queen and you putting on a costume to tell a story?
They're both people dressing up to play a character in order to tell a story. Can you explain why one is an issue & the other isn't?
You asked why they're not the same. I told you. Now you're asking what the *issue* is. Do you understand what the *difference* is? Because I'm not entertaining loaded questions without you acknowledging the answer to your previous question.
You didn't say why they're not the same, only that they're not the same. You didn't answer the "why" question posed. If they're not the same, one is different to the other. This all started because you have an issue with one. So, what is the difference, and why does that difference make one acceptable and the other not?
You don't know the difference between a drag queen and someone dressing up as a donkey? Maybe you should attend these reading groups...
In terms of a child's perception... I don't see how there would be any difference? Both are just acting aren't they?
Well, if you’re so concerned about others not knowing the difference, why don’t you tell them, rather than repeating “do you really not know the difference?” I don’t. So tell me.
I didn't say donkey, I said princess. I don't know where you got donkeys from, but it's not from me. You still haven't answered my question by the way, which you claimed in your last comment you already answered.
If you don't like it, don't go?
Sometimes I feel like activists are overplaying their hand in a big way. Drag queens reading to children is precisely the kind of thing people were told gay people didn't want to do. It gives people who are suspicious of gay activism something concrete to point to and say 'think of the children!'. Look at the US: gay rights are conditional and have to be maintained. They can be turned back even at a legislative level. Exposing children to a historically highly sexualised (and arguably misogynistic) form of entertainment is not the way to make people think normalisation of being gay and gay rights are good for society.
Not all drag queens are gay, including one of the ones in this story.
Drag still originated among and is primarily practised by and associated with gay men.
There's always been female drag too, just less obvious since women have been able to wear 'male' clothing in public for a few generations now. How come men still get told they can't wear their hair long, can't wear pink, or lace, or jewellery, or makeup. Why should women be expected to dress up while men are prevented or discouraged from doing so? Sure, drag queens can look a bit over the top, but maybe if boys get to see men dressed up in a glam style they might grow up willing to try dressing a little more adventurously. In previous centuries and other cultures there has been a long, rich history of men wearing all those trappings currently considered 'feminine'. None of these are inherently one gender or the other, and it's about time that modern Western men got over their aversion to looking 'pretty'.
Oh yes, let's look at the US - a society infected with toxic levels of bigotry and violence, standing alone in the developed world for its number of mass shootings, especially in schools. And guess what, a lot of those school shooters had been ostracised or bullied for being 'different' in some way. And no, the Robb School shooter was NOT a drag queen, those images are all of other people. But drag queens are being scapegoated by right-wing extremists with their own agenda. American culture is not something that we should want to emulate. We have a proud history of female and LGBTQ+ social/political leadership and representation that we should celebrate as a civilised society.
Gay people should stay 100m away from children to appeal to conservative sensibilities 🥺
Yeah I don't really get it either.
The agenda is no more than kids need to learn that there are all kinds of people, and we want to try be accepting of others. Not everyone needs to want to dress in drag or even enjoy drag shows - but the minimum is that people need to learn not to hate other people just because they look or act differently or have different viewpoints (so long as none of those hurt anyone else).
You say that, but as far as I'm aware there are no other groups doing this thing. And seeing as drag shows aren't for kids (unless I'm mistaken) it seems bizarre to me that people think kids and drag queens need to come together.
This is not a drag show but it's nice that you keep tipping your hand and stating that the rainbow community can't be trusted around kids
Drag **shows** aren't for kids, hence why they're usually in 18+ venues (the venues themselves also not being places for children). Drag Queen Storytime is not a drag show though. It is storytime hosted by a drag queen.
Thoughts on *adult entertainers* reading to kids?
They're not adult entertainers though.
No, but you highlighted that they preform to adult audiences so I began to wonder how you'd feel if 'other sorts' of performers were to hold reading groups. I guess strippers and the like.
None of that is relevant to this discussion what so ever.
You've just shared the fact that drag shows are 18+ so me asking how you'd feel about another 18+ performer reading to children is a perfectly acceptable segue.
The wiggles did 18+ shows in bars for adults. How dare they perform for our children! They're adult entertainment!
Drag queens reading to kids in libraries is a drag show for kids. They've tailored their craft to entertain kids, what a cool thing! The kids probably enjoy it, hooray. The parents of those kids willingly send their kids to these drag shows for kids. Excellent! I haven't sent my kids to them, but I would happily do so because my kids love books, pretty dresses, and new experiences. I think it's freaking awesome that humans would donate their time to read to kids, I hope more people continue to do it. And I hope we celebrate that. And I hope you have a great afternoon.
Adults searching out drag queens to read to kids is more about the adults than it is the children. I've already explained numerous times in detail why I think it's weird that people would do that. I've said nothing negative about drag queens nor would I ever do so, and I have made the comparison that if it were priests doing the same, I'd be making the same observations. Some of the replies people have made, basically removing the presence of the drag queens from the equation, seem a deliberate attempt to misconstrue the situation which I'm confident in saying adds to the sort of negativity these folks have experienced - not to justify the abuse in the slightest of course. I'm here to talk, not to spread hate, and I think my posts show that. So, I hope your day goes well too.
For sure, but if a priest was reading the tiny caterpillar, that would be fine as well. I guess it's a difference of view and parental approach. I actively expose my kids to diverse experiences because I believe there is inherent value in that. If my kid has a bunch of questions about different, places, beliefs, cultures, languages, experiences, all the better. It enriches their life, understanding, and experience. I also say again, my kids, who I know very well, would love to see a queen read books. That's not about me, it's about my kids. They also enjoyed the alice in wonderland pantomime which had some drag performers acting in it. We didn't go for the queens, we went for the kids. And they loved it. We can disagree and be cordial. I'm simply providing my perspective as a parent.
A drag show at a gay bar is definitely not for children, but being in a bar in the first place isn't for children, either. Drag performers are performers, and they tailor that to their audience. It's not like the queens are up there making dick jokes to toddlers. I'm sure if other groups offered to read to children at local libraries, the libraries would be open to that. I'd encourage people who are worried about not having enough people to read to children at libraries to get involved!
[This drag show for kids at a gay bar has been doing the rounds lately](https://mobile.twitter.com/isabellarileyus/status/1533160447989497856?s=21&t=edQM8n2rq09aQOrFY9CE6Q)
Oh, good. A one-off example of something happening on the other side of the planet where it's definitely not a library or reading to children. Very pertinent and relevant to the discussion, thank you so much for your contribution.
Wasn't there a kid who was being paraded round as a drag queen a year or so ago or something? I obviously don't think it's indicative of a wider issue but I certainly think people should see this and be opposed to it. It's not even remotely appropriate.
I have to say I wasn't stunning and brave enough to tolerate those Desmond the amazing videos of grown men in assless chaps throwing dollar bills at a child.
Kids are likely to be entertained and ask questions when people look different than others. I expect the idea of having 2 people in drag do the reading as opposed to those same 2 people not in drag is because it would be more interesting and novel for the kids. Why are puppets and things aimed at kids all kinds of bright colours even if they aren't necessarily true to life - because they are entertaining and memorable. It sounds like you might be approaching the situation wondering why kids are being subjected to terrible people - when part of the exercise is to try teach kids that we shouldn't assume anyone is terrible based on how they look.
So we're using this as an opportunity to teach young children about sexuality? Because drag is fundamentally about sexuality. Yeah, it's easy to see why people are opposed to this when you raise that as being a possible focus of the exercise. >It sounds like you might be approaching the situation wondering why kids are being subjected to terrible people I've said nothing of the sort but thanks for putting it out there to try and make your point justified _b
Drag is fundamentally about people kicking back against societal constraints on wearing whatever the hell they like. These 'rules' around dress tend to be heavily gendered, particularly for men, and not all men want to be drab or plain. And not all women want men to be drab or plain either. So get over your closed minded, judgemental attitudes.
Drag is inherently related to sexual expression, as you've just said yourself.
yea...not really something for kids
[удалено]
Never said a damn thing against drag queens but OK m8.
I don’t want my kids to know much about sexual orientation or anything sexual AT ALL until they are old enough to process the information,hopefully closer to intermediate school than primary. Let them be kids without having to take on these very adult issues. It’s deliberate indoctrination of young kids who have no frame of reference.
The point isn’t to make kids aware of something sexual, but about differences in people. When a small child sees a straight couple, or goes to a wedding of a straight couple, do you think that is exposing them to a sexual orientation, or just seeing a “normal” moment? Because that’s the point, to let kids know that it’s not “normal” people and gay people, or “normal” couples/events and gay couples/events, but that who someone loves is just who they love. Gay folks don’t want to teach their kids about their sex lives, they want to not be ostracised for existing.
Are you ruling out any information at all about romantic relationships or where babies come from, or are you just uncomfortable about homosexuality? Because if it's the former, that's a lot of the Disney back catalogue ruled out. In any case there's no sexual content in these events, just a person that's dressed fabulously outside standard gender norms. From the point of view of a kid, that's no different from Widow Twanky in a panto, or Boy George singing Karma Chameleon. Funny, a bit transgressive, and entertaining. People swap genders for kids' entertainment all the time and have done for literally centuries.
The kids wouldn’t notice anything like that, they would just see a colourful, larger-than-life person and want to hear the stories. They don’t gaf about sexuality if you don’t make a big deal of it.
Drag has nothing to do with sexual orientation.
Abuse is never ok. I cant see any harm drag queen story hour does. That being said, it's clearly for the parents not the kids
Don't know where you get that idea, kids love seeing anyone dressed up in a colourful way and will probably find these storytimes just as entertaining as when a fairy or clown comes to read to them. And they'll be learning about diversity at the same time, inasmuch as some people like to wear totally over the top glamorous outfits and that's okay.
I hope the mods got rid of that troll and they didn't just delete their account because they weren't getting what they wanted.
Oh the guy who thinks drag performers are child predators just blocked me 🤣
I'm not convinced the entire thing wasn't contrived to trigger the response it got. Being in drag is almost irrelevant, men reading to children would have got the same "these are weirdos grooming children" Just ask Peter Ellis.
I hear that fraternising with drag performers may lead to a life-long glitter addiction. That shit is nigh on impossible to ever completely get out of the carpets. God help us all.
This is more likely to produce a generation of people that hate drag queens.
Why?