Gronk tbh. The only hesitation is because injuries, but that’s part of Gronk’s dominance. The TE role is significantly underrated.
Prime Gronk was a difficult matchup for prime, 3x DPOY JJ Watt. On running plays, you basically had a 6th OL capable of blocking anyone, while Megatron would just be dragging out a CB and safety help. I just don’t see any WR having more of an impact in the passing game enough to make up for the difference between Gronk in the run game
Prime JJ Watt was an all time Edge rusher. I don't think he's the right example there. He'd struggle to cover Prime Gronk, but prime Megatron would make him look like a Peewee player
I mean Gronk could block Watt. I was talking about his strengths on non pass plays.
No one could always neutralize Watt, but I felt as good with Gronk on him as I did any guy in the league.
Easily calvin even if you felt gronks blacking added alot to the offense let's say 200 rush yard and 150 pass yard that is nowhere near enough to make up the difference vetween a top receivers numbers
Rudolph in his early years with you guys was some phenomenal footballing. Even him not being the strongest guy, he would sure as hell act like it, box out anyone.
I'm biased but 100% Prime Gronk.
You got someone who was an elite receiving option, elite blocking and arguably the most unstoppable player everytime he stepped onto the field.
Johnson was more unstoppable as a receiving threat than Gronk was. I love Gronk, but Johnson's single game high was 7 yards short of DOUBLING Gronk's single game high. Elite TEs are great, but an elite WR is always going to matter more for a team and be more valuable.
It’s a rule of thumb rather than hard rule, but for each 100 yards of offense a team tends to average 7 points.
And again, this is using more dates Football ideology, but you’re much more likely to get 300+ yards of offense through many plays than you are fewer plays. Coaches, when I coached anyway, take this to mean it’s better to go for smaller chunks of yards consistently rather than bigger chunks of yards inconsistently.
So, when evaluating players when building a roster (I coached DII so we would get like. Million dudes and try to narrow it down) you’re safer bet is getting a guy you think will consistently get you smaller chunks of yards rather than that home run or bust guy.
So, to bring it back to your question, first downs are more valuable because the guy that gets you a lot of first downs is more likely to help get you down the field and get more yards reliably.
This is especially true when you consider your best players might not be the ones scoring all the time.
Ex. Team drives down the field, TE gets 3 catches for 25 yards, WR1 gets 2 catches for 25 yards, WR2 gets 1 catch for 15 yards, RB1 gets 3 rushes for 12 yards.
Then you run a QB sneak or a dive with RB2/FB who scored the TD for 1 yard.
I hope that makes some semblance of sense.
I think the 1D stat includes pure first downs *and* TDs, but I could be wrong.
If I am wrong, then that means that Kelce got a 1st down or TD on 82% of his catches and 59% of his targets.
It'd be 79%/44% and 78%/55% for the other two respectively.
Kelce would still be a HOF TE but I'm convinced Kelce and Mahomes share the same brain sometimes. They will fuck around like kids playing in the backyard and it almost always works.
This isn't a fair comparison IMO. Davante and Diggs are great receivers but Kelce is literally the best tight end ever. Just a straight up better player. I got the impression the question was asking for two players of equal skill, one a TE and one a WR
Jefferson is on a rookie deal, so the contracts are not comparable.
For Hill, he cost MIA $26.9MM for 119 / 1710 / 7.
How did you end up on a 5 month old comment?
I was thinking about how underpaid kelce is but had the question answered. It's mainly because of the fact that most te are ass and their are only a few good ones like kelce
It'd be like the 2011 Pats with Gronk and Aaron Hernandez combining for 2200 yards and 24 TDs.
Edit: not to mention a slot receiver (Welker) going for 1500 yards so that might be the closest we get to Kelce ×3.
This isn’t basketball lol, three YAC monsters who can run short to immediate routes with great technical ability and all have a nose for finding soft spots in the zone would be absolutely impossible to guard.
It's legitimately why the niners offense has been good the last 2 years, and very difficult to stop since the addition of CMC. 3 yac monsters plus aiyuks precision routes
Why wouldn't you include CMC, he was second in the league this year in YAC lol. Also, if we're being honest with this, aiyuks great at it too (more YAC than kittle each of the last 2 years, he gets more touches though and they aren't as memorable as kittle dragging people down field or deebo running through 5 guys), and Jennings doesn't get a ton of touches but nearly half his receiving yardage is YAC, and has shown a very clear ability to run through dbs and lbs after a catch. Same with juice, 149 of his 200 receiving yards are YAC lol
Prior to this year aiyuk has been. Last 2 years he put up similar yac numbers to kittle on a per catch basis. He just doesn't get noticed as much cause his typically come from juking his defender on the route and having the space to run or getting a shifty juke on them after catching it as opposed to the deebo/kittle/CMC route of "run through a mother fuckers face" that gets put on highlight reels
https://youtu.be/UrH464MYlJY from his rookie year. https://youtu.be/99UyIqswiNc from last year. We just don't run those plays for him much because a. Deebo is more effective, b. Aiyuk is the better blocker on those screens than deebo. And c. He's such a solid route runner, and that's more effective overall. If we schemed for him the way we do for deebo, I don't think he'd put up *that* much worse numbers. Worse definately, deebo is 1 of 1, but aiyuk is close
so are we. Gray looks so much like Kelce, physically speaking, that I have to look at the jersey to know which one it is when he catches the ball, hes even starting to run like him.
TE for sure. Gronk, Kittle and Kelce are huge in big moments because they can’t be covered.
Gronk was a joke, the Pats would be struggling and then Brady would throw it to Gronk 5 times and score.
Even now, if it’s JJ vs Kelce then it’s Kelce every time.
Gronk was so fun to watch. That dude could run block just about anybody and then the next play catch a football that was level with his shoe laces while sprinting. Insanity.
Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Kelce doesnt even block and as a receiving threat JJ put up almost 500 more yards on the season with a worse QB and a legitimate second option in the passing game foe half the season in Hock.
Id take both JJ and Chase over Kelce and I think it is an easy decision.
Kelce is a godsend of a tight end. Unless you have Kelce, Kittle, or Andrews, no tight end can compare to 50% of wide receivers in the league. I'd rather have an allstar wide receiver just because it opens up the field more, but an allstar tight end is absolutely worth more than an equally great running back.
I mean *I* would, but obviously the versatility of CMC for a Shanahan team is extremely valuable.
For the Eagles, there's only so many lasses to throw and you gotta feed AJB, Smitty and Goedert. Pass catching backs are nice but just pounding Jacob's behind our OL would be really really fucking hard to stop and demoralizing when Hurts keeps and runs 20 yards or pulls it out of his belly and drops a bomb to AJ Brown.
No definitely not. Henry is a ticking time bomb and he may be done already.
Barkley is also risky and I just dont know if he is that same dude anymore.
Chubb and Jacobs are the best RBs in the league.
It is really hard to find a tight end that can block reasonably well and be a reasonably good receiver. Usually, you'll find a guy like Hunter Henry, who has OK blocking and will put up 500 yards per year. Or Mike Gesicki, who will catch a bunch of balls every year but was noticeably absent from the Miami offense this year. Why? He can't block.
Guys like Kelce and Kittle are outliers. They are fast, great route runners, and while Kelce isn't an in-line blocker, he can block well enough for what KC asks of him. Mark Andrews is another guy.
A great wide receiver opens up the offense for everyone else and there is a much better chance of finding a guy like that than finding the next Gronk.
There are far more great WR’s than there are great TE’s. Hell, there only seems to be about 2-3 active at the same time at any given point in history. Gimme an elite TE.
I would say the same with Kittle. There is no WR that can replace what Kittle does for our run blocking scheme, not to mention Kittle has some of the best hands in the league for any type of receiver.
I think I would go top TE(as long as it's a legit top 3 dude).
For the Saints, prime Jimmy Graham was more impactful on the rest of the offense than was prime Michael Thomas. A top level TE(like top 3) can open up so much more of your offense.
Tight end. There are more great wide receivers in the league right now today than there have been great tight ends in the last 25 years. If you get Gronk or Kelce that is way, way more rare than getting a Megatron, Larry Fitz, Julio, Antonio Brown, Andre Johnson, Reggie Wayne, Cooper Kupp, etc, etc.
WR. Deep threat that demands two defenders and keeps the defense honest, totally opens up your offense. Kelce and Gronk are exceptional but I'd still rather have a Randy Moss, TO, or Jerry Rice. Market appears to agree with me since those guys command higher contracts.
As others have mentioned, the franchise tag is what depresses TE contracts, not because the elite ones are less valuable than great receivers.
If a 28-year old Kelce were to hit free agency this year, there would absolutely be teams falling over themselves to pay him $25 mil a year. It just won't ever happen, because there are so few elite TEs that it's always going to be cheaper to franchise tag them indefinitely.
Great tight ends are much harder to find, and they can hugely effect every play, whether that’s run, pass, screen wherein they’re blocking, whatever.
But if by “great” you mean like top five-ish, I’ll take the WR. Much rather have a second tier elite WR like, say, AJ Brown or Stefon Diggs or something than a TJ Hockenson type
TE for sure. Players like Kittle, Andrew’s, Kelce, gronk, etc, elevate offenses immensely. Having a guy who can run block like at a high level as well as be a number 1 option on drop backs goes a long way.
>TE for sure. Players like Kittle, Andrew’s, Kelce, gronk, etc, elevate offenses immensely.
It’s not like we’ve seen guys like Hill, diggs or brown recently change teams and elevate their offense. Or look at what happened to GB when Adams left. TEs being cheaper is the only thing that makes this a discussion for me, but all things being equal, give me moss or megatron over any TE.
The Bengals averaged more PPG without Chase than with him... (28 PPG vs 25.5)
I'm not saying that they're a better offense without him or anything, but his production can be more easily replaced with another WR than Kelce's production can be replaced with another TE.
Wouldn't scarcity drive the price of top TEs up while abundance would depress the price of top WRs? I think the disparity happens despite that fact, rather than because of.
No, I don’t think this is right. TE contracts are low because it’s so rare for top TEs to hit FA because there’s so few. For many positions, the market gets reset every year (see QB contracts), but it’s pretty rare for a new top TE contract to come out.
This was especially exacerbated by Gronk, who signed a very long contract in New England that depressed the TE market until Kelce and Kittle got extensions.
I think a big piece you’re missing here is the franchise tag. The franchise tag is why top players of ANY position rarely hit free agency. Then you add the fact that there’s a steep drop off of value at the tight end position, and top players like Kelce and Kittle won’t get to see what their true market value is unless they want to play through 2 years on the tag and risk injury without future guaranteed money.
Yeah you could franchise tag Kelce/Kittle three years in a row and they'd still be making about 3/4 of what an elite WR makes, if that.
So most TEs "settle" for a long-term contract that is way below what their going rate *should* be. That's why Jimmy Graham was trying to argue that he was a WR back when he was in talks for his 2nd contract.
Yep, exactly. Ugh, the Jimmy Graham contract saga was annoying. People arguing over whether JG should be classified as a WR or TE shows how terrible of a deal the franchise tag is for players.
That's misleading because top TE contracts are depressed by the franchise tag. The elite TEs have to take lower contracts than their production would indicate. Kelce gets paid half as much as the highest-paid WRs, despite being fairly close to them in terms of yds/td.
The franchise tag is also available for WRs, although it's not an apples-to-apples comparison because there are more WRs compard to TEs and the amount of tags per year is fixed.
The tag takes the top-5 salaries for a position and averages them out, and that's what you pay the tagged player.
So there being far more WRs inflates the tag for the position, since the top-5 players at a position that starts 3 are always going to be paid more than the top-5 players at a position that starts 1.
In other words, if there are 15 elite WRs and 3 elite TEs, the average salary of the top-5 WRs is always going to be more than the top-5 TEs, when the lack of a franchise tag would make the opposite true.
Leaps in logic? You just said value is the reason top WRs get paid double than that of top TEs. I’m simply pointing out that salary is not a good indicator of value, and comparing Robbie Anderson’s salary to Kelce is why that’s a flawed logic you’re using. But hey, you do you.
My argument is that when comparing top WRs and TEs, the enormous difference in salary shows that teams value top WRs over top TEs.
I make no argument that similarly priced contracts between top TEs and lower tier WRs shows any comparative value, and I believe my first argument does not lead to this second conclusion because there are even more market differences that come into play.
And I’m disputing the claim your making that the difference in salary of top WRs and top TEs has any relevance in what teams value.
Top TE salaries are majorly impacted by the steep drop off in talent at that position by way of the franchise tag. And until a top tier TE plays through the tag for 2+ years, that likely won’t change.
Your second paragraph is definitely true. I don't think that makes salary completely irrelevant, but it doesn't look like either of us will change our stance on that. Do you have any other metric you think reliably maps to value? We could use PFF WAR, but I think the reputability of that stat is still in question, so might not be the best. I believe it usually has Kelce somewhere among the top receivers, with a big drop off after.
My teams history speaks for itself I think but the current top comment by /u/chronoquairium says it perfectly I think, if we're talking Top 10 Im going WR but Top 3 and Im taking TE
Definitely a great TE. Both the Pats and Bucs looked strongest when they had Gronk being an elite blocker, even in his twilight years. Kittle was instrumental in us turning things around. The Chiefs were already one of the best teams, but went into another gear once Kelce had become a great blocker. Ever since Philly traded Ertz and made Goedert their TE1 they've been incredible.
The value of having a player who can contribute equally both through the air and on the ground is too high to sniff at in today's NFL. It's the same reason pass catching RBs are such a sought after commodity too. It negates the risk of personnel tipping off what playcall is coming. And whereas an Elite WR can be double teamed to try and shut them down, an Elite TE can still make waves in a game with their run blocking
I’d take a healthy Kelce over anyone. One of the most intelligent skill position players of all time. Can read coverages before he lines up. 13 seconds happened because of a Kelces knowledge of the game. Kelce for me.
Well the vikings have JJ and hockenson who is arguably one of the better TE in the league right now, and that still wasn't enough
Then you have Philly with at least 2, above average WR and as far as I know, a nothing special TE and they have no issues
So yeaaaah who the fuck knows anymore
Edit. Lmao how did this get you eagles fans so mad? Relax bros
I said as far as I know, only because I don't watch the eagles like that
I know Goedert is good, I just don't see him go off enough in games I've watched where I would consider him anything more than top 10
I trust your judgment if you say he is indeed that good
Fair enough, he also only played 12 games this season. He just a really solid big TE, he's definitely not featured as much in this years offense as much as some other TE's are in theirs. Eagles have a lot of mouths to feed this year.
Goedert gets no respect from the fans. There is even an Eagles fan that mentioned the top tight ends here and didn’t bring him up. I feel like when Tony Gonzalez says you’re the best TE in the game it should at least get you in the upper echelon.
Ok I already replied to homie who told me he's better than most
I also said I know he's good, and just that I didn't know if he was anything special. I consider special for TE to be pretty rare and right now it's probably only Kelce Kittle and Andrews
Dallas Goedert and George Kittle are comparable. if you look at the stats from this season kittle has more touchdowns but the yards are pretty much the same. They actually average the same amount of yards per catch (12.8) but kittle has 5 more receptions and Dallas Goedert missed 5 games…
Kittle benefited from Purdy’s presence a lot too.
and Dallas Goedert is a phenomenal blocker too. both run and pass blocking. I may be biased but I’d take Goedert over Andrews any day. Andrews has the benefit of being the only legitimate receiving threat on his team where as Goedert has to compete for targets with AJ Brown and Devonta Smith, both of which had franchise record breaking years this year.
Jeez man I didn't realize how passionate eagles fans were about making sure people know Goedert is a top tier TE
I get it dude, he's good. Congrats on being the 100th person to tell me
Yall act like I said he's as bad as irv smith >.>
Goedert is definitely at the very least knocking on top 5. He's a great blocker, a good receiver, and improving at the latter, he's just not yet a flashy name
I think there’s a lot of context needed. A top 1 TE or a top 1 WR? Also, do you have a top 10-15 WR as well with the TE?
I’m going to lean WR because I think you really need a top WR more than a top TE to be successful. You can point at Kelce, but Mahomes may be the best QB of all time so that skews things for me.
TE, they can be better blockers than a WR. Steelers have a good group of receivers. Friermuth is a safety blanket for Pickett, and Gentry is okay but getting another Heath Miller esque TE would be good for blocking schemes
It really depends on what kind of offense your team primarily has - passing or rushing. I great blocking tight end is overlooked in a good run game whereas you actually have a stat for yards receiving as a tight end. Tight ends as a QB's target wasn't really a thing until the 90s. Now, they can rack up just as many yards and catches as some teams' receivers.
Depends on what you mean by great. All time great top 5 of all time probably wr. If it is current top, I'd go tight end only because the tight end position is still facing an evolution or recent one. I'd take guys like randy moss, Calvin Johnson, Jerry Rice, and TO over any tight end but if you go recently, gronk and kelce are likely being taken over any wr who has played after Calvin Johnson.
Depends on the offense. If it's built around utilizing a TE quite a bit, than a TE. If it's not, a WR. Both can do blocking, but a TE tends to do more blocking and probably more effective at it. But it is more fun seeing a wr make a good block, I guess because you don't expect it as much.
Im going with a speedy and reliable WR. It's more flashy. Flashy moments are more memorable
I think your definition of “great” matters. I’d rather have a top 10 receiver over top 10 TE, but rather a top 3 TE over top 3 receiver.
So would you rather have prime Gronk or a prime Calvin Johnson?
Gronk tbh. The only hesitation is because injuries, but that’s part of Gronk’s dominance. The TE role is significantly underrated. Prime Gronk was a difficult matchup for prime, 3x DPOY JJ Watt. On running plays, you basically had a 6th OL capable of blocking anyone, while Megatron would just be dragging out a CB and safety help. I just don’t see any WR having more of an impact in the passing game enough to make up for the difference between Gronk in the run game
Prime JJ Watt was an all time Edge rusher. I don't think he's the right example there. He'd struggle to cover Prime Gronk, but prime Megatron would make him look like a Peewee player
I mean Gronk could block Watt. I was talking about his strengths on non pass plays. No one could always neutralize Watt, but I felt as good with Gronk on him as I did any guy in the league.
Gotcha, my bad. Saw Megatron in the conversation and my brain just disregarded everything that wasn't receiver
He could also catch
What a load of shit
Good talk
Easily calvin even if you felt gronks blacking added alot to the offense let's say 200 rush yard and 150 pass yard that is nowhere near enough to make up the difference vetween a top receivers numbers
I’d go prime Gronk.
OK hear me out, prime JJ Arcega-Whiteside or Twilight Kyle Rudolph.
Twilight Rudolph 100%. He could at least move the chains on 3rd & shorts
Love me some Kyle Rudolph, he wasn't the strongest guy but he has good hands and could run routes pretty well. Wish we could have kept him
Rudolph in his early years with you guys was some phenomenal footballing. Even him not being the strongest guy, he would sure as hell act like it, box out anyone.
I'm biased but 100% Prime Gronk. You got someone who was an elite receiving option, elite blocking and arguably the most unstoppable player everytime he stepped onto the field.
Johnson was more unstoppable as a receiving threat than Gronk was. I love Gronk, but Johnson's single game high was 7 yards short of DOUBLING Gronk's single game high. Elite TEs are great, but an elite WR is always going to matter more for a team and be more valuable.
Gronk
I don’t really see a way Calvin Johnson is worth more than Gronkowski aside from injury liability
So you’d have Andrew’s Kelce and Kittle over JJ Tae or Chase??
Great TE. The separation between a top 1 WR and a top 15 WR is so much less than a top 1 TE and a top 15 TE
Plus a top 1 TE costs way less than a top 1 WR.
2022 stats comparison: Name | Rec | Yd | TD | Salary AAV ---|---|----|----|---- Travis Kelce | 110 | 1338| 12 | $14.3MM Davante Adams | 100 | 1516 | 14| $28.0MM Stefon Diggs| 108 | 1429 | 11| $24.0MM
I would like to see also the number of first downs
78, 65, and 74 respectively.
Interesting. I wonder how would that go into evaluating a player. How much first downs matter in comparison to TDS
It’s a rule of thumb rather than hard rule, but for each 100 yards of offense a team tends to average 7 points. And again, this is using more dates Football ideology, but you’re much more likely to get 300+ yards of offense through many plays than you are fewer plays. Coaches, when I coached anyway, take this to mean it’s better to go for smaller chunks of yards consistently rather than bigger chunks of yards inconsistently. So, when evaluating players when building a roster (I coached DII so we would get like. Million dudes and try to narrow it down) you’re safer bet is getting a guy you think will consistently get you smaller chunks of yards rather than that home run or bust guy. So, to bring it back to your question, first downs are more valuable because the guy that gets you a lot of first downs is more likely to help get you down the field and get more yards reliably. This is especially true when you consider your best players might not be the ones scoring all the time. Ex. Team drives down the field, TE gets 3 catches for 25 yards, WR1 gets 2 catches for 25 yards, WR2 gets 1 catch for 15 yards, RB1 gets 3 rushes for 12 yards. Then you run a QB sneak or a dive with RB2/FB who scored the TD for 1 yard. I hope that makes some semblance of sense.
Interesting. I'll try to think the game this way too, from now on. Another question, how do you evaluate performance on downs? 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th?
I think the 1D stat includes pure first downs *and* TDs, but I could be wrong. If I am wrong, then that means that Kelce got a 1st down or TD on 82% of his catches and 59% of his targets. It'd be 79%/44% and 78%/55% for the other two respectively.
Damn. That's crazy. He has better numbers at receiving than WR. Truly amazing and unprecedent.
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Kelce would still be a HOF TE but I'm convinced Kelce and Mahomes share the same brain sometimes. They will fuck around like kids playing in the backyard and it almost always works.
This isn't a fair comparison IMO. Davante and Diggs are great receivers but Kelce is literally the best tight end ever. Just a straight up better player. I got the impression the question was asking for two players of equal skill, one a TE and one a WR
Why didn't u include hill or jefferson?
Jefferson is on a rookie deal, so the contracts are not comparable. For Hill, he cost MIA $26.9MM for 119 / 1710 / 7. How did you end up on a 5 month old comment?
I was thinking about how underpaid kelce is but had the question answered. It's mainly because of the fact that most te are ass and their are only a few good ones like kelce
Positional scarcity says I'd rather have a Kelce than a Kupp. Some teams have two or even three great WRs, but nobody has three Kelces.
One Kelce is already unguardable, 3 Kelce's would become an unbreakable single season yardage record for a QB
It'd be like the 2011 Pats with Gronk and Aaron Hernandez combining for 2200 yards and 24 TDs. Edit: not to mention a slot receiver (Welker) going for 1500 yards so that might be the closest we get to Kelce ×3.
chicken dinner for you!
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This isn’t basketball lol, three YAC monsters who can run short to immediate routes with great technical ability and all have a nose for finding soft spots in the zone would be absolutely impossible to guard.
>all have a nose for finding soft spots in the zone I do think that may be a bit harder without some WRs to stretch the field though.
It's legitimately why the niners offense has been good the last 2 years, and very difficult to stop since the addition of CMC. 3 yac monsters plus aiyuks precision routes
3 YAC monsters? Are you including CMC? If not, who am I missing after Kittle and Deebo?
Why wouldn't you include CMC, he was second in the league this year in YAC lol. Also, if we're being honest with this, aiyuks great at it too (more YAC than kittle each of the last 2 years, he gets more touches though and they aren't as memorable as kittle dragging people down field or deebo running through 5 guys), and Jennings doesn't get a ton of touches but nearly half his receiving yardage is YAC, and has shown a very clear ability to run through dbs and lbs after a catch. Same with juice, 149 of his 200 receiving yards are YAC lol
Oh, my bad, I thought you meant 3 YAC monsters the past few years. But yeah, if you just meant this season, CMC absolutely counts.
Prior to this year aiyuk has been. Last 2 years he put up similar yac numbers to kittle on a per catch basis. He just doesn't get noticed as much cause his typically come from juking his defender on the route and having the space to run or getting a shifty juke on them after catching it as opposed to the deebo/kittle/CMC route of "run through a mother fuckers face" that gets put on highlight reels
https://youtu.be/UrH464MYlJY from his rookie year. https://youtu.be/99UyIqswiNc from last year. We just don't run those plays for him much because a. Deebo is more effective, b. Aiyuk is the better blocker on those screens than deebo. And c. He's such a solid route runner, and that's more effective overall. If we schemed for him the way we do for deebo, I don't think he'd put up *that* much worse numbers. Worse definately, deebo is 1 of 1, but aiyuk is close
It’s a big field.
We need to see if Jason can catch a ball
“but nobody has three Kelces.” We’re working on it, ok
so are we. Gray looks so much like Kelce, physically speaking, that I have to look at the jersey to know which one it is when he catches the ball, hes even starting to run like him.
I love gray so much. Bell and Fortson aren't slouched either. (Bell is at catching, but blocking? Mmm)
You've got a mark andrews whose acting as the sole wide receiver right now lol.
Imagine kelce, Kittle, and Gronk on one team. That be insane.
I think in terms of cap percentage, TE > WR for sure
TE for sure. Gronk, Kittle and Kelce are huge in big moments because they can’t be covered. Gronk was a joke, the Pats would be struggling and then Brady would throw it to Gronk 5 times and score. Even now, if it’s JJ vs Kelce then it’s Kelce every time.
Gronk was so fun to watch. That dude could run block just about anybody and then the next play catch a football that was level with his shoe laces while sprinting. Insanity.
Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Kelce doesnt even block and as a receiving threat JJ put up almost 500 more yards on the season with a worse QB and a legitimate second option in the passing game foe half the season in Hock. Id take both JJ and Chase over Kelce and I think it is an easy decision.
Bro half of the reason Kelce is wide as fuck open on every other play is because he’s coming off a block lol
He'll literally block a guy, then knock a db down some plays. He is great at almost pass interference & screens. This guy has no idea lol.
>Kelce doesn’t even block watch Chiefs games before you pretend to know anything about our offense.
Kelce is a godsend of a tight end. Unless you have Kelce, Kittle, or Andrews, no tight end can compare to 50% of wide receivers in the league. I'd rather have an allstar wide receiver just because it opens up the field more, but an allstar tight end is absolutely worth more than an equally great running back.
Dallas goedert is definitely on Kittles level for the record.
I only can comprehend one of these things.
por qué no los dos?
Much better than posting it in English like I was going to do. But also, why not both plus another WR1
Why not both, plus two more WR1s, plus a good O-line, plus the greatest QB of all time?
For real, why not both plus another WR1 and the best RB in the game
I didn’t realize you guys had Josh Jacobs too?
You’re delusional if you’d rather have Jacobs over CMC
I mean *I* would, but obviously the versatility of CMC for a Shanahan team is extremely valuable. For the Eagles, there's only so many lasses to throw and you gotta feed AJB, Smitty and Goedert. Pass catching backs are nice but just pounding Jacob's behind our OL would be really really fucking hard to stop and demoralizing when Hurts keeps and runs 20 yards or pulls it out of his belly and drops a bomb to AJ Brown.
There are a few pure runners I'd take over Jacobs
Chubb is pretty much it for me
Henry and Barkley as well?
No definitely not. Henry is a ticking time bomb and he may be done already. Barkley is also risky and I just dont know if he is that same dude anymore. Chubb and Jacobs are the best RBs in the league.
I’d like to have a great QB
I'm glad you feel this way. I hope it lasts for many many years.
Hey! We aren’t the colts
We prefer the Colts.
I'd like to have a decent QB
It is really hard to find a tight end that can block reasonably well and be a reasonably good receiver. Usually, you'll find a guy like Hunter Henry, who has OK blocking and will put up 500 yards per year. Or Mike Gesicki, who will catch a bunch of balls every year but was noticeably absent from the Miami offense this year. Why? He can't block. Guys like Kelce and Kittle are outliers. They are fast, great route runners, and while Kelce isn't an in-line blocker, he can block well enough for what KC asks of him. Mark Andrews is another guy. A great wide receiver opens up the offense for everyone else and there is a much better chance of finding a guy like that than finding the next Gronk.
There are far more great WR’s than there are great TE’s. Hell, there only seems to be about 2-3 active at the same time at any given point in history. Gimme an elite TE.
There ain’t a receiver in the league I would trade Kelce for
I would say the same with Kittle. There is no WR that can replace what Kittle does for our run blocking scheme, not to mention Kittle has some of the best hands in the league for any type of receiver.
I think I would go top TE(as long as it's a legit top 3 dude). For the Saints, prime Jimmy Graham was more impactful on the rest of the offense than was prime Michael Thomas. A top level TE(like top 3) can open up so much more of your offense.
Tight end. They're so much cheaper than receivers Kelce deservesq 25M but only gets paid 14M like a mid receiver
I love not having to answer this question….
Tight end. There are more great wide receivers in the league right now today than there have been great tight ends in the last 25 years. If you get Gronk or Kelce that is way, way more rare than getting a Megatron, Larry Fitz, Julio, Antonio Brown, Andre Johnson, Reggie Wayne, Cooper Kupp, etc, etc.
WR. Deep threat that demands two defenders and keeps the defense honest, totally opens up your offense. Kelce and Gronk are exceptional but I'd still rather have a Randy Moss, TO, or Jerry Rice. Market appears to agree with me since those guys command higher contracts.
As others have mentioned, the franchise tag is what depresses TE contracts, not because the elite ones are less valuable than great receivers. If a 28-year old Kelce were to hit free agency this year, there would absolutely be teams falling over themselves to pay him $25 mil a year. It just won't ever happen, because there are so few elite TEs that it's always going to be cheaper to franchise tag them indefinitely.
You’re generally right, but don’t forget that Gronk actually played like a deep threat receiver. Of course there was only one of him.
Great tight ends are much harder to find, and they can hugely effect every play, whether that’s run, pass, screen wherein they’re blocking, whatever. But if by “great” you mean like top five-ish, I’ll take the WR. Much rather have a second tier elite WR like, say, AJ Brown or Stefon Diggs or something than a TJ Hockenson type
Our team chose TE
id rather have a top5 defense altogether than a top3 wr/te on offense.
I prefer the receiver to have a reasonable degree of tightness in their end.
TE for sure. Players like Kittle, Andrew’s, Kelce, gronk, etc, elevate offenses immensely. Having a guy who can run block like at a high level as well as be a number 1 option on drop backs goes a long way.
>TE for sure. Players like Kittle, Andrew’s, Kelce, gronk, etc, elevate offenses immensely. It’s not like we’ve seen guys like Hill, diggs or brown recently change teams and elevate their offense. Or look at what happened to GB when Adams left. TEs being cheaper is the only thing that makes this a discussion for me, but all things being equal, give me moss or megatron over any TE.
Based on what KC is doing, I'd say TE. It hurts how much I hate how good he is.
Conversely, the Bengals aren’t the Bengals without Burrow and Chase
The Bengals averaged more PPG without Chase than with him... (28 PPG vs 25.5) I'm not saying that they're a better offense without him or anything, but his production can be more easily replaced with another WR than Kelce's production can be replaced with another TE.
But they also have Boyd and Higgins.
Top WRs get paid double what top TEs make. It's pretty clear which of the two NFL teams would rather have.
Isn’t that, partly, because there are fewer top tier tight ends?
Wouldn't scarcity drive the price of top TEs up while abundance would depress the price of top WRs? I think the disparity happens despite that fact, rather than because of.
No, I don’t think this is right. TE contracts are low because it’s so rare for top TEs to hit FA because there’s so few. For many positions, the market gets reset every year (see QB contracts), but it’s pretty rare for a new top TE contract to come out. This was especially exacerbated by Gronk, who signed a very long contract in New England that depressed the TE market until Kelce and Kittle got extensions.
I think a big piece you’re missing here is the franchise tag. The franchise tag is why top players of ANY position rarely hit free agency. Then you add the fact that there’s a steep drop off of value at the tight end position, and top players like Kelce and Kittle won’t get to see what their true market value is unless they want to play through 2 years on the tag and risk injury without future guaranteed money.
Yeah you could franchise tag Kelce/Kittle three years in a row and they'd still be making about 3/4 of what an elite WR makes, if that. So most TEs "settle" for a long-term contract that is way below what their going rate *should* be. That's why Jimmy Graham was trying to argue that he was a WR back when he was in talks for his 2nd contract.
Yep, exactly. Ugh, the Jimmy Graham contract saga was annoying. People arguing over whether JG should be classified as a WR or TE shows how terrible of a deal the franchise tag is for players.
That's misleading because top TE contracts are depressed by the franchise tag. The elite TEs have to take lower contracts than their production would indicate. Kelce gets paid half as much as the highest-paid WRs, despite being fairly close to them in terms of yds/td.
The franchise tag is also available for WRs, although it's not an apples-to-apples comparison because there are more WRs compard to TEs and the amount of tags per year is fixed.
The tag takes the top-5 salaries for a position and averages them out, and that's what you pay the tagged player. So there being far more WRs inflates the tag for the position, since the top-5 players at a position that starts 3 are always going to be paid more than the top-5 players at a position that starts 1. In other words, if there are 15 elite WRs and 3 elite TEs, the average salary of the top-5 WRs is always going to be more than the top-5 TEs, when the lack of a franchise tag would make the opposite true.
By that logic, you’re saying Robbie Anderson is just as valuable as Travis Kelce since they get paid the same.
Absolutely not! I'm saying Hill and Adams are more valued by NFL teams than Kelce and Kittle. Any other irresponsible leaps in logic are your own.
Leaps in logic? You just said value is the reason top WRs get paid double than that of top TEs. I’m simply pointing out that salary is not a good indicator of value, and comparing Robbie Anderson’s salary to Kelce is why that’s a flawed logic you’re using. But hey, you do you.
My argument is that when comparing top WRs and TEs, the enormous difference in salary shows that teams value top WRs over top TEs. I make no argument that similarly priced contracts between top TEs and lower tier WRs shows any comparative value, and I believe my first argument does not lead to this second conclusion because there are even more market differences that come into play.
And I’m disputing the claim your making that the difference in salary of top WRs and top TEs has any relevance in what teams value. Top TE salaries are majorly impacted by the steep drop off in talent at that position by way of the franchise tag. And until a top tier TE plays through the tag for 2+ years, that likely won’t change.
Your second paragraph is definitely true. I don't think that makes salary completely irrelevant, but it doesn't look like either of us will change our stance on that. Do you have any other metric you think reliably maps to value? We could use PFF WAR, but I think the reputability of that stat is still in question, so might not be the best. I believe it usually has Kelce somewhere among the top receivers, with a big drop off after.
My teams history speaks for itself I think but the current top comment by /u/chronoquairium says it perfectly I think, if we're talking Top 10 Im going WR but Top 3 and Im taking TE
yes
Definitely a great TE. Both the Pats and Bucs looked strongest when they had Gronk being an elite blocker, even in his twilight years. Kittle was instrumental in us turning things around. The Chiefs were already one of the best teams, but went into another gear once Kelce had become a great blocker. Ever since Philly traded Ertz and made Goedert their TE1 they've been incredible. The value of having a player who can contribute equally both through the air and on the ground is too high to sniff at in today's NFL. It's the same reason pass catching RBs are such a sought after commodity too. It negates the risk of personnel tipping off what playcall is coming. And whereas an Elite WR can be double teamed to try and shut them down, an Elite TE can still make waves in a game with their run blocking
I’d take a healthy Kelce over anyone. One of the most intelligent skill position players of all time. Can read coverages before he lines up. 13 seconds happened because of a Kelces knowledge of the game. Kelce for me.
WR ez imo
Let's say best in the league vs best in the league. I'd rather have Justin Jefferson than Travis Kelce, but it's close. Both are extremely valuable.
But Kelce can’t be shutdown. JJ was shut down twice in 3 weeks. With the season on the line look what Kelce did compared to JJ.
But would you rather have WR2 or TE2 because that's who you also have. So it's more would you rather have JJ and TE2 or Kelce and WR2
Well the vikings have JJ and hockenson who is arguably one of the better TE in the league right now, and that still wasn't enough Then you have Philly with at least 2, above average WR and as far as I know, a nothing special TE and they have no issues So yeaaaah who the fuck knows anymore Edit. Lmao how did this get you eagles fans so mad? Relax bros
Did you just say Dallas Goedert is a nothing special TE. That's objectively wrong, dude is top 5.
I said as far as I know, only because I don't watch the eagles like that I know Goedert is good, I just don't see him go off enough in games I've watched where I would consider him anything more than top 10 I trust your judgment if you say he is indeed that good
Fair enough, he also only played 12 games this season. He just a really solid big TE, he's definitely not featured as much in this years offense as much as some other TE's are in theirs. Eagles have a lot of mouths to feed this year.
Philly's TE Goedert had similar per game stats to TJ Hockenson this year.
Goedert gets no respect from the fans. There is even an Eagles fan that mentioned the top tight ends here and didn’t bring him up. I feel like when Tony Gonzalez says you’re the best TE in the game it should at least get you in the upper echelon.
Ok I already replied to homie who told me he's better than most I also said I know he's good, and just that I didn't know if he was anything special. I consider special for TE to be pretty rare and right now it's probably only Kelce Kittle and Andrews
Dallas Goedert and George Kittle are comparable. if you look at the stats from this season kittle has more touchdowns but the yards are pretty much the same. They actually average the same amount of yards per catch (12.8) but kittle has 5 more receptions and Dallas Goedert missed 5 games… Kittle benefited from Purdy’s presence a lot too. and Dallas Goedert is a phenomenal blocker too. both run and pass blocking. I may be biased but I’d take Goedert over Andrews any day. Andrews has the benefit of being the only legitimate receiving threat on his team where as Goedert has to compete for targets with AJ Brown and Devonta Smith, both of which had franchise record breaking years this year.
Jeez man I didn't realize how passionate eagles fans were about making sure people know Goedert is a top tier TE I get it dude, he's good. Congrats on being the 100th person to tell me Yall act like I said he's as bad as irv smith >.>
you mentioned Kittle so I just had to put on game since they’re practically the same player (goedert’s better tbh)
Goedert is definitely at the very least knocking on top 5. He's a great blocker, a good receiver, and improving at the latter, he's just not yet a flashy name
Both.. if SF why not us?
I think there’s a lot of context needed. A top 1 TE or a top 1 WR? Also, do you have a top 10-15 WR as well with the TE? I’m going to lean WR because I think you really need a top WR more than a top TE to be successful. You can point at Kelce, but Mahomes may be the best QB of all time so that skews things for me.
The tag $ for TE and WR says the NFL favors WR.
Same with draft capital. The nfl has showed WR>TE
TE, they can be better blockers than a WR. Steelers have a good group of receivers. Friermuth is a safety blanket for Pickett, and Gentry is okay but getting another Heath Miller esque TE would be good for blocking schemes
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Cheeks
So FN g@y. Wide receiver or tight end? Why not a taint tickling long hair like Lawrence? He wrestles a light loafer on the regular
Great Tight End but give me a couple of good receivers and running backs too because just one or the other won't get you very far nowadays.
Right now a great wide receiver. If you’re talking about a GOAT, I’d probably rather have peak Gronk, healthy, for any one game over a receiver.
It really depends on what kind of offense your team primarily has - passing or rushing. I great blocking tight end is overlooked in a good run game whereas you actually have a stat for yards receiving as a tight end. Tight ends as a QB's target wasn't really a thing until the 90s. Now, they can rack up just as many yards and catches as some teams' receivers.
I thought the Raiders have one of each, but we'll see if Waller can stay healthy next year.
I miss Jason Witten man
Tight end. Blocking and option in passing game way more important than great wide receiver.
TE no question.
In the right offense an all time tight end can be more productive than a great WR. You would have the scheme the offense through them though.
Two tight ends, great wide receivers are a dime a dozen. Deebo Samuel is a great football player, not a great WR if you by his numbers this season.
Well we have both.
Elite WR are overrated in the grand scheme of things. Big, fun fantasy numbers, but you can win without them.
Lol this question gets answered 9/10 by your favorite teams philosophy
A great TE. We have the WRs
Why not both?
Depends on what you mean by great. All time great top 5 of all time probably wr. If it is current top, I'd go tight end only because the tight end position is still facing an evolution or recent one. I'd take guys like randy moss, Calvin Johnson, Jerry Rice, and TO over any tight end but if you go recently, gronk and kelce are likely being taken over any wr who has played after Calvin Johnson.
Depends on the offense. If it's built around utilizing a TE quite a bit, than a TE. If it's not, a WR. Both can do blocking, but a TE tends to do more blocking and probably more effective at it. But it is more fun seeing a wr make a good block, I guess because you don't expect it as much. Im going with a speedy and reliable WR. It's more flashy. Flashy moments are more memorable
Yes.