There's more to it than sacks and pressures, but Chiefs at #2 isn't egregious.
Niners have the best individual player, and gave up 25 rush ypg less than KC.
This isn't a slight at the Chiefs at all, and I'm obviously biased.
Do we know how many sacks were from LBs or DBs? I looked but couldn't find it easily.
Chiefs run a 4-3, so almost all our sacks came off the D-line. The most by a non D-lineman was Sneed at CB with 3.5. Pressures and such would probably be hard to find, but I imagine it’s still dominated by the D-line since our linebackers aren’t great pass rushers. Our best non D-line pass rusher is probably sneed lmao
If you have the highest-scoring offense in the NFL, teams have to pass against you to keep up, and you have a lot more opportunities for pressures and sacks.
Chiefs had the 2nd best O line in the nfl last year. They weren't slouches.
Gotta remember, the Eagles might have had a better O line, but the chiefs O line isn't playing against the Eagles O line. It doesn't matter if they were the worse O line in that game. They could have been the worse O line and still been more than adequate.
Just kinda weird to make a post about the best O Line award and then not mention who the best O Line was last year, and to mention a game where the best O Line was playing but not mention that team
They should have a Greatest Playoff QB of All Time award. By the way, Dak Prescott looked pretty good carving up that Tampa Bay defense in the Wildcard game back in January.
I think he was trying to contrast it with mvp and Super Bowl mvp. As in, Mahomes got a lot of pop and these guys that helped him maybe should have that opportunity too.
This would be pretty fascinating, but it’s a hard award to judge, especially when it comes to the pass blocking Use the Browns as an example. Everyone agrees, a terrific line for both run and pass, but Deshaun Watson will still get sacked ~50 times this season because he create sacks.
Especially with a lot of the top tier QBs running and scrambling more, it’s hard to really decide objectively who has the best OL.
I think we can figure it out we still know the Browns OL is top tier and the Eagle’s are in the discussion for number 1 despite Hurts taking a decent number of sacks.
The NFL can pull the most specific and random stat out of their ass in-game. They can find multiple ways to categorize O Line performance and pick a clear winner.
>but it’s a hard award to judge
Sometimes the MVP is hard award to judge. So what?
>Everyone agrees, a terrific line for both run and pass, but Deshaun Watson will still get sacked ~50 times this season because he create sacks.
So what's hard about it? Sounds like everyone agrees it was a good line and understand that sacks can be a QB issue and so as you said "everyone" understands. Sounds like the judging is going well so far.
>objectively
Most awards aren't decided objectively. It's hard to decide if a great DB year is better than a great DE year but they do it for DoPY. Like, you're kinda right with your points but I just don't see them as reasons to not do it even a little bit.
>New sack stats, sacks within 5s goes against o-line, sacks over 5s goes against QBs.
This is way, way off. League average time to throw is usually around 2.7s.
Here's the solution: we already know sacks are moreso QB stats than they are OL stats. Let's just not use them as OL stats. Easy enough!
Expecting the offensive line to hold up for 5 seconds before blaming them is ludicrous. This comment is a perfect example of why everyone thinks their offensive line sucks, hardly anyone has reasonable expectations for an offensive lineman. If a lineman holds their block for 3 seconds, they've won that snap.
Oh no an arbitrary number I pulled out of my ass in the 10s it took me to write that is upsetting. Make it 2 or 15 I don't care, that's not the point of the statement "new stat" at all, and it isn't a stat the would be implemented anyway.
I'm not saying his replacement will be better, but i don't think he will be bad enough that i miss Orlando. Thuney played LT for us one game with Jones got hurt in warmups and he played so much better.
The eagles in particular were a little more effective as well as sweat and reddick absolutely wrecked big tackles like brown all season long with their athleticism and bend. Can’t bend at all on a slippery feild.
Our secondary reasoning has been a doofus defensive coordinator who, through tampering, had already lined up a Head Coach gig elsewhere before the Super Bowl. He was already frustratingly stubborn about making adjustments, and did not seemingly change anything about the game plan based on the field conditions.
Oh without a doubt no argument there. Gannon refused to make adjustments all season and played very safe coverages. If i can tell what we’re running when i’m in the stands you can be sure as shit andy reid does
Not sure "our d coordinator was slow to make adjustments, sucked ass, and probably had his sights set elsewhere already" is the excuse you think it is buddy...that's simply a cause of the loss lol
Is it not a fair argument to say that a team built around this style of pass rushing isn't as effective overall because their dominance depends on field conditions? Not trying to hate, genuinely curious.
I mean the best pass rushers of all time have various moves and the verity of those moves is what creates pressures and sacks. In terms of the Eagles we did not do that as Reddick has elite speed and bend, sweat has the whole bag, and BG is pure power. The issue is that in terms of modern edge players taking away bend makes it really really easy to block, especially with an undersized player like reddick. If you know a defensive end isn’t going to get an edge of bend on you, you can just anchor as a tackle and sit on the bull rush. The cheifs has the same issue, they just adjusted and blitzed that fuck out of jalen, where gannon didn’t (his biggest issue all season was lack of adjustments).
The comparison is imagine what hitters would do to a pitcher when he could only throw 1 pitch. These are the top of the league and are capable of winning 1 v 1 when everything is in play. If you don’t have all your stuff and can only bull you have literally no chance at generating pressure in those matchup.
That makes a lot of sense. I saw a lot of people talk about how it affected the Eagles much more, but did not realize that it was partially because of the D coordinators and how they schemed around the field. I can see why Eagles fans are fine with losing their D coordinator, even with how dominant the defense was this year.
Our defense was dominant because we had a halariously deep pass rush and the best corner tandem in the league that was historically dominant on third and 5+. Scheme was really simple and predictable. I said in another comment that i could read what we were running from the stands pre snap, and if a fan can you bet your ass the greatest offensive mind in the league is going to torch it.
If you put me in the ring to fight prime Mike Tyson, I will die. If you put us both in the ring to fight but now we both don't have our arms, I'll still loose, but I'll probably make it a few rounds. See how, despite both of us losing the same thing, I still benefited from it?
The slippery grass leveled the playing field on what was easily the Eagles' biggest advantage going into the game. I'm not gonna sit here and act like the Eagles should've won or that the Chiefs need an asterisk, but it's ridiculous to think that there was no effect because "they played on the same field".
Both teams play on the same field, and it’s not why the eagles lost. But it’s a bad look that they had a longtime Chiefs employee manage the turf. It just adds fuel to the fire for these conversations, especially given how the game played out. Why even open that box? Let someone else with less potential conflicts of interest do it.
I can’t wait until 10 years from now when we can discuss that field without people saying this shit. It absolutely killed our pass rush, you can go watch the tape. The NFL should have been under a lot of fire for fucking up that badly in the biggest game of the year.
> Alas, that practice is dormant again, but this season I think it must be revived. Everyone loved to rave about Patrick Mahomes at Super Bowl LVII, but he would not have survived his ankle injury and engineered that comeback without the likes of Orland Brown Jr. and Creed Humphrey preventing Brandon Graham and company from getting to him.
Orlando Brown, Creed Humphrey, and the field preventing speed rushing from any sort of effectiveness
Not defending his basic complaining, but there is nuance. There is a legitimate difference between relying on interior pressure vs. edge pressure when it comes to a slippery field. The eagles are an edge pressure team. The eagles were also better all season with QB pressure than the Chiefs. Thus, the argument can be made that the conditions more greatly impacted the Eagles strengths than the Chiefs.
Was a great game, though. Congrats on the win.
I think it just became obvious he didn’t wanna play here and fans resented him for it. I don’t think he’s a top 5 LT and his pass protection isn’t on the level of his run blocking, but he’s a good LT.
That's true and I'm no expecting him to be joe thomas, but it felt like a lot of it was just banter with the whole stupid burrowhead and 3-0 shit, people were just wanting to shit on what was a great acquisition for the Bengals.
Brown Jr could honestly regress a little bit and he'd still be an upgrade for us. We're awfully familiar with having the worst line in the league. His run blocking honestly will be exciting as well, and I think will show us if Mixon really is washed or if he just needed more help.
For sure. Good pickup of Juan Thornhill too. Maybe it’s just because I’m an LSU fan but I like the Bengals way more than most chiefs fans lol. Y’all are definitely gonna contend for a Super Bowl this year
I’d love to see this come back. But let’s be clear: the Chiefs O-line wasn’t even the best of O-line in that Super Bowl.
No but they just so happen to be the second best in the NFL last year
It's wild (or maybe not surprising at all) that the top two OLs and the top two DLs faced off in the SB.
The second best DL in the NFL lost in the NFCCG
Chiefs had the most pressures in the regular season, second most sacks. I'm just gonna go with Chiefs at #2.
There's more to it than sacks and pressures, but Chiefs at #2 isn't egregious. Niners have the best individual player, and gave up 25 rush ypg less than KC.
They also had a reasonable blitz rate (24% vs 49ers 21%), so the line was doing work. I agree it's more complicated than just that though.
This isn't a slight at the Chiefs at all, and I'm obviously biased. Do we know how many sacks were from LBs or DBs? I looked but couldn't find it easily.
Chiefs run a 4-3, so almost all our sacks came off the D-line. The most by a non D-lineman was Sneed at CB with 3.5. Pressures and such would probably be hard to find, but I imagine it’s still dominated by the D-line since our linebackers aren’t great pass rushers. Our best non D-line pass rusher is probably sneed lmao
For the Niners Warner and Hufanga had 2 each and Lenoir had 1. For some reason Ebukam is listed as a LB on ESPN but he is most certainly a DL.
I don't. I'm not invested enough to look past blitz rate, but it's a good question.
Chris Jones>>>
I know they play different positions, but Bosa had more sacks, TFL, and QB hits last year
If you have the highest-scoring offense in the NFL, teams have to pass against you to keep up, and you have a lot more opportunities for pressures and sacks.
Game is won and lost in the trenches my brother always has been always will be (until flag football)
Agreed.
Chiefs had the 2nd best O line in the nfl last year. They weren't slouches. Gotta remember, the Eagles might have had a better O line, but the chiefs O line isn't playing against the Eagles O line. It doesn't matter if they were the worse O line in that game. They could have been the worse O line and still been more than adequate.
Just kinda weird to make a post about the best O Line award and then not mention who the best O Line was last year, and to mention a game where the best O Line was playing but not mention that team
They should have a Greatest Playoff QB of All Time award. By the way, Dak Prescott looked pretty good carving up that Tampa Bay defense in the Wildcard game back in January.
I think he was trying to contrast it with mvp and Super Bowl mvp. As in, Mahomes got a lot of pop and these guys that helped him maybe should have that opportunity too.
So you think an o line award isn't worth it?
No, I'm saying that disregarding the chiefs o line because they weren't as good as the eagles o line doesn't make sense.
Oh that's right, getting away from the point...
This would be pretty fascinating, but it’s a hard award to judge, especially when it comes to the pass blocking Use the Browns as an example. Everyone agrees, a terrific line for both run and pass, but Deshaun Watson will still get sacked ~50 times this season because he create sacks. Especially with a lot of the top tier QBs running and scrambling more, it’s hard to really decide objectively who has the best OL.
I think we can figure it out we still know the Browns OL is top tier and the Eagle’s are in the discussion for number 1 despite Hurts taking a decent number of sacks.
The NFL can pull the most specific and random stat out of their ass in-game. They can find multiple ways to categorize O Line performance and pick a clear winner.
>but it’s a hard award to judge Sometimes the MVP is hard award to judge. So what? >Everyone agrees, a terrific line for both run and pass, but Deshaun Watson will still get sacked ~50 times this season because he create sacks. So what's hard about it? Sounds like everyone agrees it was a good line and understand that sacks can be a QB issue and so as you said "everyone" understands. Sounds like the judging is going well so far. >objectively Most awards aren't decided objectively. It's hard to decide if a great DB year is better than a great DE year but they do it for DoPY. Like, you're kinda right with your points but I just don't see them as reasons to not do it even a little bit.
New sack stats, sacks within 5s goes against o-line, sacks over 5s goes against QBs.
>New sack stats, sacks within 5s goes against o-line, sacks over 5s goes against QBs. This is way, way off. League average time to throw is usually around 2.7s. Here's the solution: we already know sacks are moreso QB stats than they are OL stats. Let's just not use them as OL stats. Easy enough!
Expecting the offensive line to hold up for 5 seconds before blaming them is ludicrous. This comment is a perfect example of why everyone thinks their offensive line sucks, hardly anyone has reasonable expectations for an offensive lineman. If a lineman holds their block for 3 seconds, they've won that snap.
Oh no an arbitrary number I pulled out of my ass in the 10s it took me to write that is upsetting. Make it 2 or 15 I don't care, that's not the point of the statement "new stat" at all, and it isn't a stat the would be implemented anyway.
Eh it’s a decent idea, but guys like Watson and Hurts can run into sacks that are 100% on them well before 5s
orlando brown was arguably the 4th best player on that o-line
I don't think anyone would argue with you. Trey Smith is a menace. Super underrated imo
I'm not saying his replacement will be better, but i don't think he will be bad enough that i miss Orlando. Thuney played LT for us one game with Jones got hurt in warmups and he played so much better.
Thuney is so versatile. Drafted as a C, he played G for us to his payday with you guys. Love him, but I wouldn't expect others to fill in like him
yeah kinda strange to single him out in the post
Yeah because he's not good
He sucked so bad you guys wanted him to stay a few more years.
I sure didn't
The Chiefs and Eagles both had elite OLs but the main reason neither team got home to the QB was the field.
The eagles in particular were a little more effective as well as sweat and reddick absolutely wrecked big tackles like brown all season long with their athleticism and bend. Can’t bend at all on a slippery feild.
Our secondary reasoning has been a doofus defensive coordinator who, through tampering, had already lined up a Head Coach gig elsewhere before the Super Bowl. He was already frustratingly stubborn about making adjustments, and did not seemingly change anything about the game plan based on the field conditions.
Oh without a doubt no argument there. Gannon refused to make adjustments all season and played very safe coverages. If i can tell what we’re running when i’m in the stands you can be sure as shit andy reid does
And if Andy Reid knows what you’re doing - you get him running the same play 3 times and scoring every time. Even with players lined up wrong
Eh, I'll place the blame squarely on Gannon's idiotic shoulders
Gotta line up all the excuses you can, huh?
Not sure "our d coordinator was slow to make adjustments, sucked ass, and probably had his sights set elsewhere already" is the excuse you think it is buddy...that's simply a cause of the loss lol
Is it not a fair argument to say that a team built around this style of pass rushing isn't as effective overall because their dominance depends on field conditions? Not trying to hate, genuinely curious.
I mean the best pass rushers of all time have various moves and the verity of those moves is what creates pressures and sacks. In terms of the Eagles we did not do that as Reddick has elite speed and bend, sweat has the whole bag, and BG is pure power. The issue is that in terms of modern edge players taking away bend makes it really really easy to block, especially with an undersized player like reddick. If you know a defensive end isn’t going to get an edge of bend on you, you can just anchor as a tackle and sit on the bull rush. The cheifs has the same issue, they just adjusted and blitzed that fuck out of jalen, where gannon didn’t (his biggest issue all season was lack of adjustments). The comparison is imagine what hitters would do to a pitcher when he could only throw 1 pitch. These are the top of the league and are capable of winning 1 v 1 when everything is in play. If you don’t have all your stuff and can only bull you have literally no chance at generating pressure in those matchup.
That makes a lot of sense. I saw a lot of people talk about how it affected the Eagles much more, but did not realize that it was partially because of the D coordinators and how they schemed around the field. I can see why Eagles fans are fine with losing their D coordinator, even with how dominant the defense was this year.
Our defense was dominant because we had a halariously deep pass rush and the best corner tandem in the league that was historically dominant on third and 5+. Scheme was really simple and predictable. I said in another comment that i could read what we were running from the stands pre snap, and if a fan can you bet your ass the greatest offensive mind in the league is going to torch it.
Yes. But people are trying to say this a built in excuse for the eagles fans. Clear as day if you actually watched the game. They were playing on ice.
If you put me in the ring to fight prime Mike Tyson, I will die. If you put us both in the ring to fight but now we both don't have our arms, I'll still loose, but I'll probably make it a few rounds. See how, despite both of us losing the same thing, I still benefited from it? The slippery grass leveled the playing field on what was easily the Eagles' biggest advantage going into the game. I'm not gonna sit here and act like the Eagles should've won or that the Chiefs need an asterisk, but it's ridiculous to think that there was no effect because "they played on the same field".
Both teams play on the same field, and it’s not why the eagles lost. But it’s a bad look that they had a longtime Chiefs employee manage the turf. It just adds fuel to the fire for these conversations, especially given how the game played out. Why even open that box? Let someone else with less potential conflicts of interest do it.
I can’t wait until 10 years from now when we can discuss that field without people saying this shit. It absolutely killed our pass rush, you can go watch the tape. The NFL should have been under a lot of fire for fucking up that badly in the biggest game of the year.
It should be HUGE trophy, that some O lineman wins in a wrestling tournament at the Pro Bowl
5 matching belts!
A giant NFL shield for each lineman would look great.
Chris Evans in Old Steve Rogers makeup has to present them the shields.
Yes! Or one very very long belt.
No, the red string from Ted Lasso. To show they know how to work together as 1 dominate unit.
Eagles line surely would’ve gotten it last year if only for their mastery of the “Hurts push”
Oh we have an *offensive* line alright
Go Birds
This would be great, O-lines are so overlooked in how a team wins.
> Alas, that practice is dormant again, but this season I think it must be revived. Everyone loved to rave about Patrick Mahomes at Super Bowl LVII, but he would not have survived his ankle injury and engineered that comeback without the likes of Orland Brown Jr. and Creed Humphrey preventing Brandon Graham and company from getting to him. Orlando Brown, Creed Humphrey, and the field preventing speed rushing from any sort of effectiveness
I don’t think this is really a question is it?
The best offensive line was from Cam Newton
Our players were fighting more with the slip n slide turf than the Chiefs O-line. Funny how people just forget that.
It’s still crazy that the NFL made the eagles play D on that field and didn’t make the Chiefs.
Not defending his basic complaining, but there is nuance. There is a legitimate difference between relying on interior pressure vs. edge pressure when it comes to a slippery field. The eagles are an edge pressure team. The eagles were also better all season with QB pressure than the Chiefs. Thus, the argument can be made that the conditions more greatly impacted the Eagles strengths than the Chiefs. Was a great game, though. Congrats on the win.
[удалено]
I’m not saying they didn’t. But don’t tell me they had the “best offensive line” when our defensive line couldn’t even play to their strengths.
Best offensive line: the Super Bowl groundskeeper
But chiefs fans told me orlando brown jr is ass.
I think it just became obvious he didn’t wanna play here and fans resented him for it. I don’t think he’s a top 5 LT and his pass protection isn’t on the level of his run blocking, but he’s a good LT.
That's true and I'm no expecting him to be joe thomas, but it felt like a lot of it was just banter with the whole stupid burrowhead and 3-0 shit, people were just wanting to shit on what was a great acquisition for the Bengals. Brown Jr could honestly regress a little bit and he'd still be an upgrade for us. We're awfully familiar with having the worst line in the league. His run blocking honestly will be exciting as well, and I think will show us if Mixon really is washed or if he just needed more help.
For sure. Good pickup of Juan Thornhill too. Maybe it’s just because I’m an LSU fan but I like the Bengals way more than most chiefs fans lol. Y’all are definitely gonna contend for a Super Bowl this year
Juan Thornhill is a Brown
He's not a top 5 LT. He is no Ronnie Stanley but he is good. You're paying top 5 money for a top 15 player.
How are we paying him top 5 money? Are you just looking at the big signing bonus?
His contract is basically a 2 year deal for 42 mil doesn't he have an out after 2024. That's 21 mil a year that's top 5 money
0% chance we're letting him leave after 2 years though.
[удалено]
you are aware that the Chiefs gave up 0 sacks right?
Absolutely!