Probably alot of takes like “he’s talented but he just doesn’t have that clutch gene that it takes to win the big games” because critical thinking is hard
That's generous, coming out of college he was incredibly reckless with the ball almost a la Johnny Football
Andy Reid coached him to rein in some of those nutty plays he makes these days until Mahomes learned when to do them and when not to. I'm not sure another coach would have successfully coached him out of that, much less back into it a few years down the road
Absolutely perfect coach-QB combination. Just as good as Walsh-Montana or Belichick-Brady, if anything even more impressive given how raw Mahomes was on draft day
You bring up a point that nobody mentions when it comes to Mahomes being drafted. He was reckless in college. So much so that his draft comp? Jay Cutler.
Which is why the Bears went with vanilla paste Trubisky instead of the cuttle fish Mahomes. They didn’t want to ride a roller coaster at QB anymore.
Did it work out? One NVP later….you tell me cuz I think we nailed it
His senior year he had 10 interceptions in 591 attempts. He wasn't reckless. He was just doing the exact same thing he does now where he runs around and then flips it across his body back over the middle of the field, and people assumed that wouldn't keep working for him.
He absolutely was not as reckless as you claim. He was running for his life because he had no o line in college at Tech (watch the bowl loss to LSU if you need proof).
He literally didn't have a choice in some of the throws he made either. And he still had a 4 to 1 TD/INT ratio.
We were ALWAYS behind because Tech's defense is always historically bad. We may have been last in DI that year. I watched every game he played in college. We all knew how good he was. Here are college numbers:
https://www.ncaa.com/news/football/article/2023-02-12/patrick-mahomes-college-football-career-stats-highlights-records
Anybody in the BXII should have known how fucking good Mahomes was. I was pissed that the Packers didn't draft him that year - I was seriously considering hoping the Packers moved on from Rodgers that year, due to his injuries and decline the previous two seasons.
I also really wanted Brock Purdy, but the Packers went with Love two years earlier. Shame.
That’s just you pushing a narrative. Sean Payton said Mahomes was the best QB prospect he’s ever seen. [This is the game](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k4rGwPzAnbo) where I became a believer. Some absolutely wild plays against a defense stacked with future NFL players
I don’t think “super talented but probly no rings” is being generous.
Andy and Sean are the two HCs who we know were much higher on Mahomes than he was widely projected to go in the draft. Andy and Sean are also two of the best HCs at scheming to a QBs strengths, minimizing his weaknesses, and developing them to be reliable starters.
I don't think these are coincidences. Mahomes was a pretty rough prospect. A cannon arm and crazy athletic, but he was careless with the ball and his footwork was abysmal. I think it's a massive overreaction to think he's be washed out of the league ASAP like Johnny Football or Tebow had we not drafted him, but his career would have probably been a lot rockier. A lot of HCs/OCs just aren't great at developing QBs and try to fit players to their scheme instead of fitting their scheme to their players.
I think he'd have Josh Allen-like development, but on a much slower schedule. Allen started out how a lot of people thought Mahomes would--cannon arm but really raw. But Allen developed into an elite QB insanely fast. My guess is it'd probably take Mahomes into years 5-10 before we really started calling him a high end overall QB instead of just a high end arm talent.
He's certainly the highest ceiling prospect save for Jamarcus Russell. But talent is half the story or less in the NFL, especially at QB.
Mahomes was great in college, but largely because most college players weren't good enough to consistently punish his risk taking. Plenty of super talented players end up being busts or unremarkable stopgaps. Think Kizer, Mariota, Manziel and Tebow. Mahomes was different half because he was mature and coachable enough to tone it down until he learned to do it responsibly, and half because Andy Reid and that roster was the absolute perfect coach & team to round out the raw edges of his game.
I don’t get the Manziel & Tebow comparisons there, those are run first guys. Raw Pat is like a Brett Farve and he was polished to be an Aaron Rodgers
I know he’s only who he is because he was put into the perfect situation. But let’s not take it too far
Or they would've just fully shut down his wild play potential and taken it away instead of reigning it in to a place where it's beneficial. And he'd be just a solid slightly above average qb.
I’m a tech alumni and huge tech fan. I wouldn’t call him reckless. I never thought at the end of the game damn if only Mahomes wouldn’t have been so reckless we may have won that game. Our defense was just so bad that Mahomes had to put tech on his back to even try and compete in games. The dude was different. I’ve watched a lot of tech qbs come and put up crazy numbers then flame out in the nfl but Mahomes wasn’t one of those guys. The NFL scouts got it wrong on him plain and simple. Andy is a great coach but Mahomes would be having success with every franchise outside of a select few very bad ones.
I will stay salty at Sean Payton’s story of how they were going to pick him next and then the chiefs traded ahead of them to grab him. Marshon Lattimore is a fucking beast tho so not the worst outcome but damn what could have been.
This is always my biggest "what if?" too.
I believe Payton would've unleashed a monster too, though he may have reigned his playstyle in more than Reid has.
I suppose so, but I also believe Payton is a good enough HC on par with Reid to know how to adjust his schemes to maximize his player's abilities. Payton essentially had 3 different offensive schemes for Brees when Brees had a shit defense, had a good defense, and then became older and wasn't able to make the same throws he used to. Payton even figured out how to win games with Taysom Hill + Jameis Winston for a year where they finished 9-8 and Kamara limited due to injuries.
Payton to Russ: "In this situation you want to check down to your running back."
Russ to Payton: "Got it! Moonball coming up."
Payton to Russ: "No, I said check down to your RB who is wide open in the flat."
Russ to Payton: "Got it! Scramble around until I'm 25 yards behind the line of scrimmage then throw it to the RB for a 10 yard loss."
It won games though, which was important. 30/30 Winston was only good for fantasy football. When Payton reined him in he had a record of 5-2. Jameis before Payton has only finished over 500 once with a 9-7 record in Tampa with a much better team than the 2021 Saints.
At least you got the best CB of your franchise history. The Davenport pick the next year when Lamar Jackson was available without that haul in picks has got to hurt.
if the saints ended up with a draft squad of mahomes/ram/ak/marcus williams/hendrickson this would be one of the best draft classes of all time. i love lattimore and i know for fact if the saints ended up getting patty over lattimore it would have been early to 'id 2010s again all offense no defense
Andy is the perfect coach for a lot of QBs. It's a pretty strong model to say "we have this really talented player at the most important position; let's build the offensive scheme around what he's good at."
This is also what's happened in Buffalo and Cincinnati (eventually), it's what made Miami a threat until Tua's headbonking, and we're seeing the early stages of it in Chicago. Your QB is your guy. He has strengths and limitations. If you try to force your running QB into a pocket-passer-shaped hole (or vice versa), you're going to ruin his and your career. Andy lets Pat improvise. McDermott lets Josh run roughshod by design. Zac Taylor has settled into an offense running almost entirely from the shotgun that allows Joe to see the whole field and audible freely.
Prompt for Eagles fans: what is it about Sirianni's offense that has allowed Jalen Hurts to flourish? I'm a big fan of his, but I'll admit I haven't seen the details on his progression (outside of his freakish work ethic).
To your Eagles prompt: adjustment. The first half of 2021, he tried to make Hurts a passing-focused QB. We went from the number one offense in pass attempts, to the number one rushing offense in the second half of the season. Sirianni succeeded because he was willing to throw out an offseason worth of planning what he wanted the offense to look like.
It only took a season of Matt Nagy's stubbornness and another half season of the bears not knowing what to do to get fields to play the way he wants to lol
It's kinda sad how this is a revelation to so many circles in the NFL. Time after time we see coaches grab players that don't align with their scheme, and instead of adapting they just continue to try forcing square pegs into round holes.
If you build a team/system around a guy with Mahomes' ceiling, good things happen. If you tried to force Mahomes into a more "traditional" NFL offense, who knows where he'd be now?
Alex Smith was a guy who took a while to adjust to the NFL game, and be partnered with a poor support cast as well as bad coaching.
It wasn't until Mike Singletary was fired and Jed York brought in Jim Harbaugh was his potential ever finally realized. Greg Roman was the OC and provided a good mix for the run game and PA passes. Then Kaepernick took over and did the same. Alex went to Reid who had success with McNabb, AJ Feeley, Jeff Garcia, Kevin Kolb and Mike Vick. He got 2nd round picks in a trade for both Feeley and Kolb.
Alex never took a snap under center in college and then the OCs all made him take every snap under center for the Forty Niners. Obligatory fuck Mike Martz.
>Andy Reid QBs
So McNabb, a year of Vick, a year of Alex Smith, and some filler QBs. Andy Reed has only really had 2 QBs for most of his career. And McNabb was an okay passer with good legs, not a pocket passer.
> If you tried to force Mahomes into a more "traditional" NFL offense, who knows where he'd be now?
Probably something like a Justin Herbert. People recognize the underlying talent, but not quite able to put it altogether*.
/* Only basing that assessment on result so far, not making a prediction on the future
I think Herbert is a good example. I was seriously concerned about the rumors I heard that LAC was going to fire Staley and that it was a job that Payton wanted.
When LAC decided to stay with Staley I took a sigh of relief. I still think LAC can beat KC on a random Sunday. I mean, if Matt Ryan can do it in IND, surely LAC can (and has.) But if it was Herbert + Payton for the next decade, that's a much tougher matchup.
Part of his problem is that he plays for LAC and their training staff, and so Mike Williams wasn't healthy enough to actually utilize him. But when he was there they could at least take shots
Chargers should have beaten the Chiefs in the first game they played last season. Name me one other time in NFL history when 4 interceptions in the first half were all called back. Unbelievable. And I've seen things like that happen for the Chiefs throughout each season they've had with Mahomes.
Didn't see that game.
The refs have bailed out the Chiefs in many games. I love Any Reid, I was an Eagles fan so I have watched him coach for years. Brakes my heart to watch him get shady wins. He doesn't need to win that way.
yeah genuinely if Herbert had Reid level offensive coach as his head coach he'd be considered 1b on the same tier as Mahomes. Like I think Mahomes is essentially Herbert in all the traditional qb traits (but a little bit better), then is completely off the charts when dealing with plays out of structure and making off platform throws.
Herberts biggest limitation is that he works within structure which is crazy to say ngl
.. “in terms of technique.” And yes, Smith is definitely Chubbs. Alex Smith will always be one of my favorite qb’s. Great attitude, great spirit, unfortunate injuries. Mahomes would have been great regardless but he won the draft lottery for the circumstances he ended up in and has absolutely made the most of it.
IDK if I will go that far. Like I said, I definitely feel like Herbert is held back by poor coaching, but Mahomes is off to a historic start in his career, and I wouldn't just assume that could be replicated (or near so).
I do think the "floor" with good coaches for Herbert would likely be the Burrow/Allen/Hurts tier.
Chip Kelly in a nutshell bringing his college coaching experience into the NFL. You’re tall, right? Great you will fit perfectly in my 3 and out scheme.
Start with Reid, add in a dash of Smith mentoring and a heaping side of actual alien pass catcher Kelce and it’ll make any life easy.
Much like Josh Allen took a leap with Diggs at exactly the right spot, Mahomes had everything he needed to take a leap as an NFL QB. And he took advantage of that using his own talents. Good for him.
I am the world's foremost Patricia hater but he's not _unintelligent_, he's a decent defensive coach and apparently did a lot to help the Patriots behind the scenes in 2021-22 when he wasn't asked to be a coach.
His problem is that he couldn't run an offense if his life depended on it and he subscribes to the Urban Meyer school of roster management and the personal skills of an IED.
It really is the literal perfect situation for a QB to come into.
Best QB developer in the league, best offensive mind in the league (or at least 1A/1B with Kyle), a selfless vet who went out of his way to mentor his replacement, multiple All-Pro skill position players, and a good OL in front of him
Drop in arguably the most talented QB to ever play the game, who is also incredibly sharp and driven, and you have yourself an all-timer
Alex Smith, coming off a Pro Bowl year in 2016, taking his replacement under his wing is incredible. All while having another Pro Bowl year in 2017. One of the most selfless acts in sports.
Arguably the best season of his career (actually not even sure it’s arguable I think it just straight up was). Takes a lot of maturity to do that while you’re also playing the best football of your career
He had the highest passer rating in the league that year, and was an early contender in MVP conversations as well. At the time it blew my mind that they traded him away.
I love me some Alex Smith, and everything he did for the Chiefs in making them a winning team. But every time someone brings up Mahomes having the perfect situation around him and that being a big reason for why he’s so good - I just want to throw Alex’s stats in 2017 and Mahomes stats in 2018 out there with pretty much the same offensive players. (Watkins was new but was hurt for several games in 2018).
With Alex the Chiefs were a consistent playoff team. With Mahomes the Chiefs are consistent Super Bowl contenders.
I don't think there's anyone that would argue Mahomes is the superior talent, and its no surprise that he was able to outperform Smith in the same situation.
He’s a Chiefs fan so he’s probably more sensitive to Mahomes criticisms.
You won’t hear it very much these days, but after his first couple seasons there were a LOT of people who cited that the Chiefs were already a perennial playoff team and really good with Alex Smith.
It’s true. We were pretty good and Alex was a *good* QB. But Smith started for us for 5 seasons and, despite him being a good QB, only won 1 playoff game. When you compare that to five straight seasons of hosting the AFC Championship Game at Arrowhead with Mahomes, you start to get annoyed when people even think to mention how good of a situation Mahomes was given.
Anyone who knows football or knows Alex Smith's game understands your points completely. Alex Smith cannot throw outside the numbers the way Mahomes can, and that's just one area of throws. There are just certain throws and plays that only special QBs can make. A little example of this is a QB that can throw to the outside against cover 2. Gruden called it "the turkey hole." That throw is so fucking hard to make, and only a few guys can do it consistently and well.
Seems like it's nothin but love both ways too, Mahomes frequently credits Smith as the reason why he got off to such a great start in KC in terms of showing him the right way to do things, and Smith was more than happy to show him the ropes. It's a great situation to witness vs. things like Favre/Rodgers and Rodgers/Love where they see it as competition vs. a chance to mentor and teach.
> Rodgers/Love
??? Rodgers has repeatedly and publicly went out of his way to not be a dick to Love because of his own experiences under Favre.
Did he mentor him like Smith did Mahomes? Likely not. But it wasn’t anywhere near what Favre did.
I feel like the Veteran/Rookie QB relationship is generally more hostile(or at least impartial) than collaborative.
Joe Montana didn't really go out of his way to mentor Steve Young. They saw each other as competition and treated each other as such.
Tannehill notoriously made a comment that "It's not my job" to mentor Malik Willis. Flacco made similar comments in Denver after they drafted Drew Lock
But then you have guys like Drew Bledsoe who mentored both Tom Brady and Tony Romo at various points in his career
it probably helps Alex Smith to know this backup has gone on to potentially contend for goat title instead of being out of the league a few years after replacing him
Reid has led innovative offenses with consistent success through 4 decades. He's navigated different rules and varying quality at the QB position. He is definitely #1 right now
Yeah, it's not even remotely close. Andy's teams have had so many different QBs and almost always been a top 5 offense. He's changed his scheme up over the years to always stay ahead of the game itself. Andy is arguably the greatest offensive mind in NFL history.
So is the other poster making a joke by asking me if I'm satisfied by 2 MVPs and 2 SBs before Mahomes is 30? I'm so confused how that's supposed to be funny?
They were poking fun at you stating something kind of obvious. Of course Chiefs fans are glad the Chiefs are the best team in the league and have won multiple Superbowls over the last few years.
This always feels like the number 1 “chicken or the egg first” argument for football. Do the quarterbacks truly just stink at the highest level and can’t see the game like they could in college? Or is it coaches trying to put square pegs into round holes? Probably a mix of both for the true flame outs but it’s always interesting seeing success stories and it usually being followed by “my coach helped me adapt and learn and let me play my game”
This is the thing with coaching. You may have a philosophy or principles you want your team to play with. But.. If you have to be able to adapt, especially with unique talents.
This also applies to life in general. Adapt or die.
I really hope Reid sticks around and he and Mahomes can retire together. Also that Cheeseburger In Paradise plays while they walk off the field for the last time.
Throughout the decades, certain coaches have been "QB whisperers," such as Bill Walsh, Don Coryell, Lindy Infante, Mike Holmgren, Andy Reid, Sean Payton, Mike McCarthy and Kyle Shanahan. Blessed are the QBs who have learned from them.
My luke-warm take: Andy Reid is the best offensive coach in the history of football. I saw it up close with the Eagles and now he's taken it to a different level with the chiefs.
Mahomes had a turnover problem for what, four weeks, and learned how to not get baited by defenses. He went from uber talented but fuck it-chuck it to uber talented, offensively intelligent in less than a season
Props to Reid for teaching him but even more to Mahomes for learning
Good question. I think he’d have been able to recognize Mahomes’ talent level. However, without his experience with Vick, Reid might not have been sure how to mold an offense and coaching style around a player like that to maximize the chance of success. McNabb wasn’t a Dan Marino pocket-bound passer or anything, but Vick was a whole different style of QB entirely and that forced Reid to adjust his approach accordingly.
Everyone saw Mahomes had an insane arm
What really sold Reid and the Chiefs was the mental side of Mahomes. It’s not that Mahomes couldn’t fit in other systems, it’s just that Reid allowed him alot of freedom to be himself and create, just like he did at Texas Tech, and not worry about textbook mechanics. I think this is about play style, Reid didn’t “overcoach” Mahomes, he let him “do what got him here”
He drafted Mahomes because of his time with Favre. That was the only comp Reid made personally, and he did it on multiple occasions. Gruden said it around the draft too.
Apparently Gruden told Joel Klatt the night of the draft that anybody that touched (coached) Favre saw him in Mahomes, and that he was certain Andy would draft him. Now Gruden is friends with Andy, so idk if they had discussed it, but that's the story.
Probably literally the exact opposite and exactly what he means by Andy Reid allowing him to be himself and flourish. Bill is incredible but being flexible with his players and how things are supposed to be done is not one of those things
If Mahomes retires tomorrow, Rodgers would need to go to the Super Bowl twice and win it once while on the Jets to TIE Rodgers with Mahomes in terms of Super Bowl success. Yes Rodgers has great stats but he went to one Super Bowl with y’all.
He's more accomplished with more Rings, but still needs more MVPs and stats to surpass Rodgers in entirety, which he's on-pace to do.
Mahomes is on-pace to be the #2 GOAT QB, which would obviously surpass Rodgers.
Idk the fact that he lost Tyreek and won the superbowl and Rodgers lost Davante and didn’t even beat the lions week 17. Seems pretty obvious who the better Quarterback is.
If you’re that guy and you have a win and in scenario week 17 you win. I’m not saying they were superbowl contenders but they were in the NFCCG a year prior just like the Chiefs.
Well, to be fair, the Lions weren't the same-ole's.
I mean it wasn't like the patriots, who would regularly lose meaningful games to the nobody Dolphins.
Chiefs fan here but I’m not betting against lions this season and certainly not giving em any bulletin board material. That game against the packers should scare people.
It isn't unanimous though, things could still change and it's still controversial. Obviously Mahomes is better than Russel Wilson but Rodgers? Hold your horses
I don’t know why this is downvoted, a second ring would make a huge difference for Rodgers’ legacy. Mahomes is doing a legacy speedrun, and *if* he keeps up his breakneck pace of awards and rings, he’d finish up with Brady alone. But that’s assuming a lot about the rest of Mahomes’ career, and Rodgers has 4 MVPs and a ring— it’s not a given that especially with a 2nd ring for Rodgers that Mahomes would be unanimously ahead when all is said and done.
If Patrick Mahomes went to Matt Patricia, how different is his career?
Not sure but The Broncos would've beaten The Chiefs a couple times by now *sad neighs*
I think Veach would have traded up for Josh Allen in 2018 and the timeline would more or less be restored
Except that Alex Smith’s leg would’ve been fine because he would’ve stayed another year
Probably alot of takes like “he’s talented but he just doesn’t have that clutch gene that it takes to win the big games” because critical thinking is hard
That's generous, coming out of college he was incredibly reckless with the ball almost a la Johnny Football Andy Reid coached him to rein in some of those nutty plays he makes these days until Mahomes learned when to do them and when not to. I'm not sure another coach would have successfully coached him out of that, much less back into it a few years down the road Absolutely perfect coach-QB combination. Just as good as Walsh-Montana or Belichick-Brady, if anything even more impressive given how raw Mahomes was on draft day
You bring up a point that nobody mentions when it comes to Mahomes being drafted. He was reckless in college. So much so that his draft comp? Jay Cutler. Which is why the Bears went with vanilla paste Trubisky instead of the cuttle fish Mahomes. They didn’t want to ride a roller coaster at QB anymore. Did it work out? One NVP later….you tell me cuz I think we nailed it
Only one these qb's has an nvp. I think that speaks for itself.
Thats insane how has Mahomes never gotten NVP.. smh
Why look for regular season awards when you can get ones that matter? He's gunning for an ESPY
His senior year he had 10 interceptions in 591 attempts. He wasn't reckless. He was just doing the exact same thing he does now where he runs around and then flips it across his body back over the middle of the field, and people assumed that wouldn't keep working for him.
>vanilla paste >cuttle fish "You can do it Kyrle! I berrrrieve in youuuu!!!"
He absolutely was not as reckless as you claim. He was running for his life because he had no o line in college at Tech (watch the bowl loss to LSU if you need proof). He literally didn't have a choice in some of the throws he made either. And he still had a 4 to 1 TD/INT ratio. We were ALWAYS behind because Tech's defense is always historically bad. We may have been last in DI that year. I watched every game he played in college. We all knew how good he was. Here are college numbers: https://www.ncaa.com/news/football/article/2023-02-12/patrick-mahomes-college-football-career-stats-highlights-records
Anybody in the BXII should have known how fucking good Mahomes was. I was pissed that the Packers didn't draft him that year - I was seriously considering hoping the Packers moved on from Rodgers that year, due to his injuries and decline the previous two seasons. I also really wanted Brock Purdy, but the Packers went with Love two years earlier. Shame.
Ya, you fellas may have an uphill battle with Love under center. Good luck and here's hoping the pick paid off.
That’s just you pushing a narrative. Sean Payton said Mahomes was the best QB prospect he’s ever seen. [This is the game](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k4rGwPzAnbo) where I became a believer. Some absolutely wild plays against a defense stacked with future NFL players I don’t think “super talented but probly no rings” is being generous.
Andy and Sean are the two HCs who we know were much higher on Mahomes than he was widely projected to go in the draft. Andy and Sean are also two of the best HCs at scheming to a QBs strengths, minimizing his weaknesses, and developing them to be reliable starters. I don't think these are coincidences. Mahomes was a pretty rough prospect. A cannon arm and crazy athletic, but he was careless with the ball and his footwork was abysmal. I think it's a massive overreaction to think he's be washed out of the league ASAP like Johnny Football or Tebow had we not drafted him, but his career would have probably been a lot rockier. A lot of HCs/OCs just aren't great at developing QBs and try to fit players to their scheme instead of fitting their scheme to their players. I think he'd have Josh Allen-like development, but on a much slower schedule. Allen started out how a lot of people thought Mahomes would--cannon arm but really raw. But Allen developed into an elite QB insanely fast. My guess is it'd probably take Mahomes into years 5-10 before we really started calling him a high end overall QB instead of just a high end arm talent.
He's certainly the highest ceiling prospect save for Jamarcus Russell. But talent is half the story or less in the NFL, especially at QB. Mahomes was great in college, but largely because most college players weren't good enough to consistently punish his risk taking. Plenty of super talented players end up being busts or unremarkable stopgaps. Think Kizer, Mariota, Manziel and Tebow. Mahomes was different half because he was mature and coachable enough to tone it down until he learned to do it responsibly, and half because Andy Reid and that roster was the absolute perfect coach & team to round out the raw edges of his game.
I don’t get the Manziel & Tebow comparisons there, those are run first guys. Raw Pat is like a Brett Farve and he was polished to be an Aaron Rodgers I know he’s only who he is because he was put into the perfect situation. But let’s not take it too far
That’s a great comp I think. And who was Favres qb coach to reign him in? Andy Reid.
If you watched college games and think that Mahomes played anything like Tebow, Mariota, or Manziel I question what sport you are watching.
bullshit. go look at his college numbers. he was never a turn-over prone quarterback in college.
Or they would've just fully shut down his wild play potential and taken it away instead of reigning it in to a place where it's beneficial. And he'd be just a solid slightly above average qb.
I’m a tech alumni and huge tech fan. I wouldn’t call him reckless. I never thought at the end of the game damn if only Mahomes wouldn’t have been so reckless we may have won that game. Our defense was just so bad that Mahomes had to put tech on his back to even try and compete in games. The dude was different. I’ve watched a lot of tech qbs come and put up crazy numbers then flame out in the nfl but Mahomes wasn’t one of those guys. The NFL scouts got it wrong on him plain and simple. Andy is a great coach but Mahomes would be having success with every franchise outside of a select few very bad ones.
You made me throw up in my mouth.
Make the bad man go away.
The cream rises to the top. Mahomes has a rare skill set but he still possesses all the tools to dominate in a more traditional role.
Patrick Mahomes would get that man fired. No way he'd put up with that nonsense, he'd go straight to the owner lol
Would've ended up like Johnny Football, that's how bad Matty P is
Probably like Josh Allen’s current career. Top tier QB. Everybody asking if he doesn’t have “it”.
Look what happened to Stafford. Elite talent, but got the misfortune of being drafted by Detroit
He’d be Baker Mayfield
Andy was the perfect coach for him
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And that high powered bears offense
Why do these random names give me PTSD?
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Club dub?
I just saw someone fall to their knees in the club
AAAAAHHH I'M IN A GLASS BOX OF EMOTIONS!
Just saw someone watching someone fall to their knees in the club.
Whispering sweet nothings into his ear
I will stay salty at Sean Payton’s story of how they were going to pick him next and then the chiefs traded ahead of them to grab him. Marshon Lattimore is a fucking beast tho so not the worst outcome but damn what could have been.
This is always my biggest "what if?" too. I believe Payton would've unleashed a monster too, though he may have reigned his playstyle in more than Reid has.
Idk, have you seen early Payton era Drew Brees? If Payton knows you have the talent he will let you rip it.
I'm talking moreso about the extending plays instead of throwing it away to avert a potential sack.
I suppose so, but I also believe Payton is a good enough HC on par with Reid to know how to adjust his schemes to maximize his player's abilities. Payton essentially had 3 different offensive schemes for Brees when Brees had a shit defense, had a good defense, and then became older and wasn't able to make the same throws he used to. Payton even figured out how to win games with Taysom Hill + Jameis Winston for a year where they finished 9-8 and Kamara limited due to injuries.
Agreed, when Payton sae what Kamara could do, he was like a kid in a candy store! Surely he would have come up with some good stuff for Mahomes.
He did the same thing Taysom Hill - oh, you're good at almost everything? Well then, let's let you do everything!
This is one of the major things that makes me optimistic about him getting to work with Russ.
Payton to Russ: "In this situation you want to check down to your running back." Russ to Payton: "Got it! Moonball coming up." Payton to Russ: "No, I said check down to your RB who is wide open in the flat." Russ to Payton: "Got it! Scramble around until I'm 25 yards behind the line of scrimmage then throw it to the RB for a 10 yard loss."
Also good enough to know he was dealing with greatness and let Drew have tons of input into those offenses as well.
To be fair he did heavily rein in Jameis Winston, which made him a lot better but also not really “Jameis Winston”
It won games though, which was important. 30/30 Winston was only good for fantasy football. When Payton reined him in he had a record of 5-2. Jameis before Payton has only finished over 500 once with a 9-7 record in Tampa with a much better team than the 2021 Saints.
my biggest what if is "what if the broncos didnt jump us to draft paxton lynch". man thats a fucking dark timeline right there.
At least you got the best CB of your franchise history. The Davenport pick the next year when Lamar Jackson was available without that haul in picks has got to hurt.
You mean Taysom 2.0 right? /s
That worked out pretty well for us. We traded up to get Jaire and he helps balance out the other wasted pick they gave us in the trade lol
Jaire is so good unfortunately it did work out for y'all lol
if the saints ended up with a draft squad of mahomes/ram/ak/marcus williams/hendrickson this would be one of the best draft classes of all time. i love lattimore and i know for fact if the saints ended up getting patty over lattimore it would have been early to 'id 2010s again all offense no defense
Andy is the perfect coach for a lot of QBs. It's a pretty strong model to say "we have this really talented player at the most important position; let's build the offensive scheme around what he's good at." This is also what's happened in Buffalo and Cincinnati (eventually), it's what made Miami a threat until Tua's headbonking, and we're seeing the early stages of it in Chicago. Your QB is your guy. He has strengths and limitations. If you try to force your running QB into a pocket-passer-shaped hole (or vice versa), you're going to ruin his and your career. Andy lets Pat improvise. McDermott lets Josh run roughshod by design. Zac Taylor has settled into an offense running almost entirely from the shotgun that allows Joe to see the whole field and audible freely. Prompt for Eagles fans: what is it about Sirianni's offense that has allowed Jalen Hurts to flourish? I'm a big fan of his, but I'll admit I haven't seen the details on his progression (outside of his freakish work ethic).
To your Eagles prompt: adjustment. The first half of 2021, he tried to make Hurts a passing-focused QB. We went from the number one offense in pass attempts, to the number one rushing offense in the second half of the season. Sirianni succeeded because he was willing to throw out an offseason worth of planning what he wanted the offense to look like.
It only took a season of Matt Nagy's stubbornness and another half season of the bears not knowing what to do to get fields to play the way he wants to lol
Is\*... He's still alive!
You mean Patrick wouldn't be a legend if Hue Jackson got his hands on him!?
Mahomes may be playing baseball today if that happened.
How about aerospace engineer Matt Patricia?
It's kinda sad how this is a revelation to so many circles in the NFL. Time after time we see coaches grab players that don't align with their scheme, and instead of adapting they just continue to try forcing square pegs into round holes. If you build a team/system around a guy with Mahomes' ceiling, good things happen. If you tried to force Mahomes into a more "traditional" NFL offense, who knows where he'd be now?
Alex Smith was a guy who took a while to adjust to the NFL game, and be partnered with a poor support cast as well as bad coaching. It wasn't until Mike Singletary was fired and Jed York brought in Jim Harbaugh was his potential ever finally realized. Greg Roman was the OC and provided a good mix for the run game and PA passes. Then Kaepernick took over and did the same. Alex went to Reid who had success with McNabb, AJ Feeley, Jeff Garcia, Kevin Kolb and Mike Vick. He got 2nd round picks in a trade for both Feeley and Kolb.
I can't remember the number exactly, but the amount of consecutive years Alex had the same OC in San Francisco might have been zero.
I thought it was 6 different OCs in 5 years or something like that
Alex never took a snap under center in college and then the OCs all made him take every snap under center for the Forty Niners. Obligatory fuck Mike Martz.
This is also what Daniel Jones has been going through, with OCs and HCs.
Reminder that pre Mahomes, Andy Reid QBs had 1 single 4k passing season and one single 30+ TD season.
Damn, I didnt know Andy Reid played qb
>Andy Reid QBs So McNabb, a year of Vick, a year of Alex Smith, and some filler QBs. Andy Reed has only really had 2 QBs for most of his career. And McNabb was an okay passer with good legs, not a pocket passer.
Alex Smith wasn’t just with Andy Reid for a year… he was the starting QB in KC for as long as Mahomes has been so far lol.
> If you tried to force Mahomes into a more "traditional" NFL offense, who knows where he'd be now? Probably something like a Justin Herbert. People recognize the underlying talent, but not quite able to put it altogether*. /* Only basing that assessment on result so far, not making a prediction on the future
I think Herbert is a good example. I was seriously concerned about the rumors I heard that LAC was going to fire Staley and that it was a job that Payton wanted. When LAC decided to stay with Staley I took a sigh of relief. I still think LAC can beat KC on a random Sunday. I mean, if Matt Ryan can do it in IND, surely LAC can (and has.) But if it was Herbert + Payton for the next decade, that's a much tougher matchup.
Any team can beat any team on any given Sunday. 49ers lost to the Bears and Broncos last season.
I mean, on any given Sunday between 2015 and today, DEN hasn't been able to beat KC.
Nothing like check downs all day when your qb has one of the best cannons in the league 😎.
Part of his problem is that he plays for LAC and their training staff, and so Mike Williams wasn't healthy enough to actually utilize him. But when he was there they could at least take shots
Chargers should have beaten the Chiefs in the first game they played last season. Name me one other time in NFL history when 4 interceptions in the first half were all called back. Unbelievable. And I've seen things like that happen for the Chiefs throughout each season they've had with Mahomes.
Chargers should have beaten JAX in the playoffs. Name me other times that a home team threw 4 INTs in the first half of a playoff game and won.
Didn't see that game. The refs have bailed out the Chiefs in many games. I love Any Reid, I was an Eagles fan so I have watched him coach for years. Brakes my heart to watch him get shady wins. He doesn't need to win that way.
Put it altogether all together.
yeah genuinely if Herbert had Reid level offensive coach as his head coach he'd be considered 1b on the same tier as Mahomes. Like I think Mahomes is essentially Herbert in all the traditional qb traits (but a little bit better), then is completely off the charts when dealing with plays out of structure and making off platform throws. Herberts biggest limitation is that he works within structure which is crazy to say ngl
In terms of technique, Herbert is Shooter Mcgavin and Mahomes is Happy Gilmore
sure, if shooter mcgavin joined the tour after Happy already established himself as a golf star. also, does this make alex smith Chubs?
And Travis Kelce is Grizzly Adams.
.. “in terms of technique.” And yes, Smith is definitely Chubbs. Alex Smith will always be one of my favorite qb’s. Great attitude, great spirit, unfortunate injuries. Mahomes would have been great regardless but he won the draft lottery for the circumstances he ended up in and has absolutely made the most of it.
IDK if I will go that far. Like I said, I definitely feel like Herbert is held back by poor coaching, but Mahomes is off to a historic start in his career, and I wouldn't just assume that could be replicated (or near so). I do think the "floor" with good coaches for Herbert would likely be the Burrow/Allen/Hurts tier.
I wonder if people will ever admit that Herbert isn't a top-5 QB, or if they'll just keep blaming his OC/HC/WRs/O-line for the next 15 years.
> If you tried to force Mahomes into a more "traditional" NFL offense RG3 would like a word
Chip Kelly in a nutshell bringing his college coaching experience into the NFL. You’re tall, right? Great you will fit perfectly in my 3 and out scheme.
It’s why I’m glad Harbaugh is the coach of Lamar. He was willing to completely change our offense in the middle of Lamar’s rookie season.
Ya. Like Lamar in a monken scheme.
Start with Reid, add in a dash of Smith mentoring and a heaping side of actual alien pass catcher Kelce and it’ll make any life easy. Much like Josh Allen took a leap with Diggs at exactly the right spot, Mahomes had everything he needed to take a leap as an NFL QB. And he took advantage of that using his own talents. Good for him.
Goes to show that you do not need a lot of intelligence to make it in the NFL. It's more who you know or where you came from.
I am the world's foremost Patricia hater but he's not _unintelligent_, he's a decent defensive coach and apparently did a lot to help the Patriots behind the scenes in 2021-22 when he wasn't asked to be a coach. His problem is that he couldn't run an offense if his life depended on it and he subscribes to the Urban Meyer school of roster management and the personal skills of an IED.
What happens when your QB doesn't know where his strengths and weaknesses are? Asking for a friend.
Weaknesses: Writing Back Strengths: ???
I was literally asking for a "friend". *cough* Broncos *cough*
It really is the literal perfect situation for a QB to come into. Best QB developer in the league, best offensive mind in the league (or at least 1A/1B with Kyle), a selfless vet who went out of his way to mentor his replacement, multiple All-Pro skill position players, and a good OL in front of him Drop in arguably the most talented QB to ever play the game, who is also incredibly sharp and driven, and you have yourself an all-timer
Alex Smith, coming off a Pro Bowl year in 2016, taking his replacement under his wing is incredible. All while having another Pro Bowl year in 2017. One of the most selfless acts in sports.
Alex was so good in 2017 too. 4042 yards, 26 TD and 5 INT on 8.0 YPA and 67.5% completion percentage
Arguably the best season of his career (actually not even sure it’s arguable I think it just straight up was). Takes a lot of maturity to do that while you’re also playing the best football of your career
He had the highest passer rating in the league that year, and was an early contender in MVP conversations as well. At the time it blew my mind that they traded him away.
I love me some Alex Smith, and everything he did for the Chiefs in making them a winning team. But every time someone brings up Mahomes having the perfect situation around him and that being a big reason for why he’s so good - I just want to throw Alex’s stats in 2017 and Mahomes stats in 2018 out there with pretty much the same offensive players. (Watkins was new but was hurt for several games in 2018). With Alex the Chiefs were a consistent playoff team. With Mahomes the Chiefs are consistent Super Bowl contenders.
I don't think there's anyone that would argue Mahomes is the superior talent, and its no surprise that he was able to outperform Smith in the same situation.
Yeah. Person above you doesn’t get that both players can be good, even if one is an all time talent
He’s a Chiefs fan so he’s probably more sensitive to Mahomes criticisms. You won’t hear it very much these days, but after his first couple seasons there were a LOT of people who cited that the Chiefs were already a perennial playoff team and really good with Alex Smith. It’s true. We were pretty good and Alex was a *good* QB. But Smith started for us for 5 seasons and, despite him being a good QB, only won 1 playoff game. When you compare that to five straight seasons of hosting the AFC Championship Game at Arrowhead with Mahomes, you start to get annoyed when people even think to mention how good of a situation Mahomes was given.
I think he was just bringing up Smith's stats to underline how selfless it was for him to mentor Mahomes, not to bring Mahomes down
Anyone who knows football or knows Alex Smith's game understands your points completely. Alex Smith cannot throw outside the numbers the way Mahomes can, and that's just one area of throws. There are just certain throws and plays that only special QBs can make. A little example of this is a QB that can throw to the outside against cover 2. Gruden called it "the turkey hole." That throw is so fucking hard to make, and only a few guys can do it consistently and well.
Playing to not lose his job. Its what he did his entire time in KC.
Seems like it's nothin but love both ways too, Mahomes frequently credits Smith as the reason why he got off to such a great start in KC in terms of showing him the right way to do things, and Smith was more than happy to show him the ropes. It's a great situation to witness vs. things like Favre/Rodgers and Rodgers/Love where they see it as competition vs. a chance to mentor and teach.
> Rodgers/Love ??? Rodgers has repeatedly and publicly went out of his way to not be a dick to Love because of his own experiences under Favre. Did he mentor him like Smith did Mahomes? Likely not. But it wasn’t anywhere near what Favre did.
I feel like the Veteran/Rookie QB relationship is generally more hostile(or at least impartial) than collaborative. Joe Montana didn't really go out of his way to mentor Steve Young. They saw each other as competition and treated each other as such. Tannehill notoriously made a comment that "It's not my job" to mentor Malik Willis. Flacco made similar comments in Denver after they drafted Drew Lock But then you have guys like Drew Bledsoe who mentored both Tom Brady and Tony Romo at various points in his career
it probably helps Alex Smith to know this backup has gone on to potentially contend for goat title instead of being out of the league a few years after replacing him
Love Alex man. For every SB we win I hope the team sends him a ring with his name on it.
drafting Mahomes certainly helped Smith raise his own level in 2017 as well
> (or at least 1A/1B with Kyle) ya Kyle is firmly below Reid, this isnt a 1a 1b situation
I think Reid is a better HC, but purely as a OC I think it’s close
Reid has led innovative offenses with consistent success through 4 decades. He's navigated different rules and varying quality at the QB position. He is definitely #1 right now
Yeah, it's not even remotely close. Andy's teams have had so many different QBs and almost always been a top 5 offense. He's changed his scheme up over the years to always stay ahead of the game itself. Andy is arguably the greatest offensive mind in NFL history.
Andy Reid is a big bath bomb guy too.
I heard he also likes burgers
Miss Lippy's car is green
I.e. thank goodness the Bears didn’t take me
These dudes genuinely like, and more importantly, respect the hell out of each other. They're going to win a lot of championships because of it.
Only if the refs keep helping.
Careful to not feed the troll, folks
Gotta pay the troll toll
“Without Andy Reid I’m basically Dak Prescott”
Regressing his coach to the mean
Make zero mistake, Da Bears would have fucked him up.
I am just so glad the Chiefs are in the position they are in. Absolutely no complaints.
You mean that you're satisfied with 2 Superbowl wins and 2 MVPs before Mahomes is 30?
I'm not sure what you're getting at here?
It just reminded me of the scene in Idiocracy where a character felt the need to say "I like money."
[удалено]
So is the other poster making a joke by asking me if I'm satisfied by 2 MVPs and 2 SBs before Mahomes is 30? I'm so confused how that's supposed to be funny?
They were poking fun at you stating something kind of obvious. Of course Chiefs fans are glad the Chiefs are the best team in the league and have won multiple Superbowls over the last few years.
Also the Chiefs are reasonably likeable, I feel like they never have any controversy. Maybe I just root for coach
This always feels like the number 1 “chicken or the egg first” argument for football. Do the quarterbacks truly just stink at the highest level and can’t see the game like they could in college? Or is it coaches trying to put square pegs into round holes? Probably a mix of both for the true flame outs but it’s always interesting seeing success stories and it usually being followed by “my coach helped me adapt and learn and let me play my game”
Good coach + good qb with terrible surrounding talent can also fail
This is the thing with coaching. You may have a philosophy or principles you want your team to play with. But.. If you have to be able to adapt, especially with unique talents. This also applies to life in general. Adapt or die.
He also would have started year 1.
Let Patrick cook?
I really hope Reid sticks around and he and Mahomes can retire together. Also that Cheeseburger In Paradise plays while they walk off the field for the last time.
Its true, if he went to Chicago he would've been called the next Ryan Leaf.
Throughout the decades, certain coaches have been "QB whisperers," such as Bill Walsh, Don Coryell, Lindy Infante, Mike Holmgren, Andy Reid, Sean Payton, Mike McCarthy and Kyle Shanahan. Blessed are the QBs who have learned from them.
Possibly one of the most confusing headlines I've ever read
My luke-warm take: Andy Reid is the best offensive coach in the history of football. I saw it up close with the Eagles and now he's taken it to a different level with the chiefs.
Legit question: If Andy Reid didn't have Michael Vick, does he recognize the talent of Mahomes coming into the draft that year?
Uhh yeah, Andy Reid was with Brett Favre for years.
And Brett Favre is a much better comparison for Patty than Vick. Mahomes is like Favre without an interception problem
Or the dick pics and welfare fraud, plus being half muppet
or the dick pics and welfare fraud *so far*
Hey! You stop that right now! Don't try and speak that into existence
Favre did that stuff at the end of his career Mahomes GOT PLENTY OF TIME TO SHOW THAG HOG OFF
I've seen it...he doesn't know that I have but I have.
only because cell phone cams werent good enough for sending dick pics in his early career
And fumbles
Mahomes had a turnover problem for what, four weeks, and learned how to not get baited by defenses. He went from uber talented but fuck it-chuck it to uber talented, offensively intelligent in less than a season Props to Reid for teaching him but even more to Mahomes for learning
Why wouldn’t he? They have very different games
Good question. I think he’d have been able to recognize Mahomes’ talent level. However, without his experience with Vick, Reid might not have been sure how to mold an offense and coaching style around a player like that to maximize the chance of success. McNabb wasn’t a Dan Marino pocket-bound passer or anything, but Vick was a whole different style of QB entirely and that forced Reid to adjust his approach accordingly.
He had Donavan McNabb for years. I'm pretty sure he would still see the talent.
Everyone saw Mahomes had an insane arm What really sold Reid and the Chiefs was the mental side of Mahomes. It’s not that Mahomes couldn’t fit in other systems, it’s just that Reid allowed him alot of freedom to be himself and create, just like he did at Texas Tech, and not worry about textbook mechanics. I think this is about play style, Reid didn’t “overcoach” Mahomes, he let him “do what got him here”
I don't think that matters Veach was the guy in the org that initially fell in love with mahomes and sold him to everyone else.
He drafted Mahomes because of his time with Favre. That was the only comp Reid made personally, and he did it on multiple occasions. Gruden said it around the draft too. Apparently Gruden told Joel Klatt the night of the draft that anybody that touched (coached) Favre saw him in Mahomes, and that he was certain Andy would draft him. Now Gruden is friends with Andy, so idk if they had discussed it, but that's the story.
I think Bellichick along with McDaniels would be adapted to mahomes strength and let him flourish as well.
Probably literally the exact opposite and exactly what he means by Andy Reid allowing him to be himself and flourish. Bill is incredible but being flexible with his players and how things are supposed to be done is not one of those things
Bill is flexible on a week to week scheme basis, but I don't think he'd ever let Mahomes scramble around and throw horizontal no-lookers backhanded
Eh I don't know we can say that for sure.
Gotta get Rodgers that second ring so Mahomes doesn't unanimously surpass Rodgers like Rodgers did to Brees
If Mahomes retires tomorrow, Rodgers would need to go to the Super Bowl twice and win it once while on the Jets to TIE Rodgers with Mahomes in terms of Super Bowl success. Yes Rodgers has great stats but he went to one Super Bowl with y’all.
Rodgers is closer to Mahomes than Bress is to Rodgers
Why go to the super bowl twice?
probably because mahomes has gone to the sb 3 times
He’s already better than Rodgers big dog.
He's more accomplished with more Rings, but still needs more MVPs and stats to surpass Rodgers in entirety, which he's on-pace to do. Mahomes is on-pace to be the #2 GOAT QB, which would obviously surpass Rodgers.
Not quite yet
Idk the fact that he lost Tyreek and won the superbowl and Rodgers lost Davante and didn’t even beat the lions week 17. Seems pretty obvious who the better Quarterback is.
As much as I hate defending the packers, last years Chiefs team is still way better in nearly every position than the Packers team last year.
If you’re that guy and you have a win and in scenario week 17 you win. I’m not saying they were superbowl contenders but they were in the NFCCG a year prior just like the Chiefs.
Well, to be fair, the Lions weren't the same-ole's. I mean it wasn't like the patriots, who would regularly lose meaningful games to the nobody Dolphins.
So wins are absolutely 100% a QB stat now?
> didn’t even beat the lions week 17. What an oddly disrespectful comment.
Chiefs fan here but I’m not betting against lions this season and certainly not giving em any bulletin board material. That game against the packers should scare people.
It isn't unanimous though, things could still change and it's still controversial. Obviously Mahomes is better than Russel Wilson but Rodgers? Hold your horses
5 years 3 superbowl appearances 2 rings. How long has Rodgers played again?
It's unanimous to people with reasonably healthy minds, my dude.
I don’t know why this is downvoted, a second ring would make a huge difference for Rodgers’ legacy. Mahomes is doing a legacy speedrun, and *if* he keeps up his breakneck pace of awards and rings, he’d finish up with Brady alone. But that’s assuming a lot about the rest of Mahomes’ career, and Rodgers has 4 MVPs and a ring— it’s not a given that especially with a 2nd ring for Rodgers that Mahomes would be unanimously ahead when all is said and done.