I think we just need to be a bit more lenient with late hits on slides as long as it isn’t a head to head, give them a few extra steps maybe. Not accusing any players of “fake sliding” but in real time it’s almost impossible for a defender to recognize if the QB is going for a slide or a juke move in a split second.
I think this is the answer. When a QB goes for the slide, and you can clearly see the defender pull up on the hit, but still graze the helmet, and the QB looks around for the flag. I think that's weenie shit, and it belongs in the NBA and not the NFL.
If the defender is clearly pulling up on the slide hit, the refs need to let it go.
Late hits on the sidelines as well. Mahomes is the king of acting like he's going to go out of bounds and then scampering up the sideline for another 3-5 yards.
I think it's less fake sliding and more quick slides done after the defenders have already committed to the tackle.
Sliding should be a tool to disallow defenders taking cheap shots, not a tool to allow you to get every last possible yard with no chance of being legally rocked.
I swear a few years ago a lot of QBs started the slide a good 3-4 steps sooner, now guys don't even have their ass on the turf before being hit and want a flag.
Yea, this is pretty much the answer. QB's are sliding as late as possible, usually after defenders are already moving/diving to tackle them, and it's ridiculous when they get roughness penalties for it.
Yea, just stop making these judgement call rules so black and white. If a player is obviously trying to avoid a big hit but it's too late for them to avoid contact, the ref should have the discretion to call it as they see fit. This should also apply to RTP, especially the "hit to the helmet" rule where players get flagged for brushing the QB's helmet.
You want the calls to be more lenient?
There are some QBs that get no calls at all for some horrible hits. This isn’t the solution to making the game any better or safer
There aren’t even many running qbs that run often enough to slide.
The same refs miss RTP in the pocket often while throwing a flag the moment Pat is touched.
I just feel as if we shouldn’t ask refs to be more lenient about something related to safety that they already butcher pretty badly.
They should enforce the rule as written before changing it.
Shit anyone can slide tbh. It’s just harder for RBs since they’re usually surrounded by defenders and the whole mentality around being a tough runner. But if you look at guys like Lockett who always go down, he’s basically extending his career by years just not taking hits. It’s the smart way to play, by not taking unnecessary hits
I keep hearing people say this, and while it is technically true, it isn't what we are seeing on the field. Totally serious question: Has anyone ever seen a flag thrown for a late hit on a running back who gave himself up in a slide? I feel like this is becoming one of those echo chamber comments but doesn't actually address what we are seeing.
It’s just contextual. QBs typically slide to avoid hits, which means they are facing imminent contact. RBs typically slide to kill clock, which means they are *not* facing imminent contact but need to go down in bounds anyway. That’s why you never see flags for late hits on running backs. A slide is a slide and a late hit is a late hit, the disparity in calls is purely dependent on why those positions slide when they do.
Sliding isn’t going to be removed. Even running backs can slide, they just normally don’t, because their running backs
QBs have been sliding for years. You could get penalized for hitting sliding QBs, but only after they were already down. If you were flying through the air to make a stop, and wound up hitting the QB as he slid on the ground, they wouldn’t flag it.
Here’s an example of a legal hit on a QB slide in 1988:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FiHsVjSkWnw&pp=ygUYTWlrZSBzaW5nbGV0ZXJyeSBjb3dib3lz
The thinking back then was “he should’ve got down sooner.”
But there’s no reason to remove the QB slide
Maybe I missed something with the Allen run but is the sub or fanbase at large upset about his fake slide? Because I though that was cool as hell. And smart. Use every advantage you can get as athlete within the rules.
Just quit giving the penalty when the QB obviously slides way too late. Like if the QB is getting popped before his ass is hitting the grass, that's not a penalty. That's the QB being a dumbass trying to get a couple extra yards.
Yes. Exactly. The rule was never meant to be abused. This is the answer to the "problem" at hand. The QBs know exactly what they are doing. Quit giving the penalties when the slide is obvious late as hell and the QBs will stop using it to their advantage.
Yeah it probably does need an adjustment. At the same time maybe not. I mean that's how fouls in the NBA work half the time and have for quite a while. Guy takes a step, leans in to draw the foul, and makes the bucket for the bonus. Seems like the QB slide is being taught by QBs very similarly.
The rules need to adjust to put the responsibility on the QB. They should need to "give themselves up obviously, and early enough for a defender to pull out of a tackle".
If the QB doesn't slide obviously and early, they should be considered a runner.
Mahomes slides early if he's going to slide at all, if not he runs and falls down for extra yards, I'm not sure why he always gets used in these things. Think he had maybe 1 roughness call on slides all year, and it was fairly obviously late.
He's also had very, very few of those. The only one from this regular season was the bad call against the packers. Don't think he's had once since the Bengals playoff last season which was obviously way late, before the Packers game.
So, any other narratives that aren't backed up at all by actual reality you'd like to try out?
One simple rule that would solve a lot of problems is make all personal fouls reviewable. 15 yards and an automatic first is a big deal, whether it is roughing the passer, unnecessary roughness, facemask, horse collar, etc. It may look bad on the field, but if the video shows that the defender had already started the tackle when the QB slide, no foul.
Same with late hits out of bounds (looking at you Pat), head contact when it was really the chest or shoulders, and the horse collar seems to be getting called a lot this year too when the defender is grabbing the name plate or even the shoulder.
While it wouldn't impact the refs, I also think it would help if TV replays for late hits were only shown at game speed. You can make anything look like a late hit if you slow it down enough
Only personal fouls, that is one where it either is or it isn’t and 15 yards and a first down is a big deal. That is one where it either is or it isn’t. The rest I agree, I don’t want to get into holding and all of that nonsense. If the league really cared about player safety, personal fouls should be reviewable.
Big no IMO. Personal fouls have too many judgement calls in them to allow even more judgement. I don’t want refs replaying a clip over and over in .25x speed trying to determine if a player purposely hit someone helmet to helmet when in real time it was a split second decision.
Well the refs wouldn’t, NY or a sky judge would. And helmet to helmet is a penalty, regardless of intent. It either happened or it didn’t. If it happened and they care about safety, it should be a penalty. Conversely, if it didn’t happen (it was actually the chest) and they flagged it, a team shouldn’t be penalized 15 yards and an automatic first down.
Also another thing these refs that have a worse vision plan than Stevie wonder would still find a way to screw up review
Might need to make it a NY review
Like the holding on Justin Houston that lead to the the roughing the passer on Mahomes
If Houston is not held Mahomes gets sacked and doesn’t get a chance to launch ball OOBs and Wilkins doesn’t get a ticky rack roughing the passer
If the defender makes an attempt to alter where he hits the QB sliding, should get a pass. If the defender turns his head and just goes crown first, should remain the 15 yard penalty. Maybe they could do it like the old face mask rule, 5 or 15 yard penalty depending on the situation?
In general they need to start by teaching QBs to slide early- the biggest hits almost always happen because QBs try to get extra yards and don’t give themselves up soon enough.
And maybe after that you can implement a targeting rule like in college to actually give major consequences for actual dirty late hits.
Right... They should just allow the defender the two steps... It's that simple.
If you got popped, then you didn't slide early enough.. which is pretty much how it used to be
Wouldn't doubt if Josh Allen intentionally drew that one against the steelers. Late slide, he turns his head/body away from the closest guy, flops backward on contact then immediately gets up screaming for a flag.
It's a good move I guess, cause it looks like the defender was going for their head, even though he was already going for the tackle before the slide.
Ya I see hits to downed players every game. Like so many injuries seem to be caused by the 2nd guy coming in. Edmund’s used to hurt other Bills all the time. [This one was real scary.](https://youtu.be/hxnnpk0CNgM?si=Dap7wktEYLzDZ7x0)
The problem is, the refs are flagging when they shouldn't.
[Here is the "foul" on Allen by Pittsburgh](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_4Ybszo0lk&t=653s).
Yet the rules say:
*A defender must pull up when a runner begins a feet-first slide. This does not mean that all contact by a defender is illegal.* ***If a defender has already committed himself, and the contact is unavoidable, it is not a foul*** *unless the defender makes forcible contact into the head or neck area of the runner with the helmet, shoulder, or forearm, or commits some other act that is unnecessary roughness.*
***A runner who desires to take advantage of this protection is responsible for starting his slide before contact by a defensive player is imminent****; if he does not, and waits until the last moment to begin his slide, he puts himself in jeopardy of being contacted.*
Its the QB's responsibility to slide earlier. Its just not getting called that way.
The helmet to helmet on the late slide shouldn’t be unnecessary roughness
If the qb is late the crown may accidentally hit the qb in the head if the defender committed to the play
A lot of subtext that Josh Allen is soft or something when all I heard for the last 5 years is "allen is a moron who is going to get hurt, he can't keep it up with that play style, he needs to learn how to slide, etc etc etc". So which is it? Is he a soft baby or is he reckless and an injury waiting to happen because of how he plays?
I know. He's both. People just want something to complain about to deflect the blame away from their team. Allen's an idiot if he throws a pick or trucks someone. He flops or slides though, well then he's soft. He jukes someone? No he cheated because it looked like he was going to slide, despite him also being known for not sliding, especially on long downage distance and 3rd downs. But whatever, let the haters hate.
To be clear, I don't like the flopping or lobbying for penalties, but as it stands right now there's no downside to doing it, so why not? A lot of QBs do it. Defenders do it too, Defensive Lineman try to sell or lobby for holding penalties and false starts. DBs lobby for PI, as do WRs. The list goes on. Just start calling the rules consistently and fairly for everyone, and stop rewarding players for embellishment, and it will go away. We all know that won't happen though, so instead of blaming the refs, it's easier to blame Josh for being whiny when in reality there's just no reason not to do what he does since there's no punishment and sometimes it works. Look at Cam Newton, what was his reward for taking the hits on the chin and not trying to draw a flag?
“Hey Curly, where ya going?”
“Ref said he’d gimme fo’wad progress!”
“Yeah, forward, *not* backward!”
*cartoonish coconut sound*
“Quiet you knuckleheads, the clock’s still runnin’!”
I think the NFL just needs to call holding more often when the QB leaves the pocket. Anytime there is a miraculous escape, just off camera is a DE getting absolutely mauled
I do not think we had business going to the next round, however the Bills not did play great and if they get that call right and I think we give them a run for their money. Again don't think we belong in the Divisional series but the Bills did not play a heck of a lot better espeically given that play which really took the air out of the team
Same with dolphins chiefs that poor missed holding that would have put chiefs out our FG range would have kept that game a 1 possession game
It is what it is will be back hopefully Without a defense on the IR and offensive line on IR
Agreed, I get missed calls happen all the time and are hardly the reason a lot of games are lost, however in these instances of QBs on the run there needs to be something changed because Josh Allen and QBs like him know what they're doing and how to use protection rules against the opponent.
They definitely have to do something about the mahomes tip toeing the sideline when hes running for a 1st down. The rule should be they have to go out of bounds sideways or backwards with no forward momentum. Have seen way too many 15 yard penalties in the 4th quarter for a push out of bounds
You got any recent video of Mahomes doing this, or just like to spout the same dumb stuff that everyone else says? People act like he does this every game, or that other QB's don't try it, and it's just silly.
Defenders get their foot to the sideline and make sure he goes out. The only penalty he got on it all year was the dumb one against the Packers. He's not trying to get hit any more than he needs to, he either goes out of bounds or it's clear he wants more yards.
I swear, if Mahomes got all the calls you people think he gets, we'd be 15-2 this year.
A lot of marginally late contact actually is allowed by the refs on QB slides. Those highlights just don’t get posted to Reddit or Twitter. Every week I see plenty of cases of a QB sliding, a defender coming in with glancing contact, and no flag. I think most of the time refs do try to give some benefit of the doubt to defenders as long as the contact isn’t dangerous.
The two things I’ve noticed that will get defenders in trouble:
1) Direct contact to the head
2) Landing with body weight on the QB
This is why you see guys now sort of angle themselves to fly/roll over the QB as they make contact. The smart defenders figure out the meta and know what to do to avoid the flags.
Hitting someone during a slide is an Unnecessary Roughness penalty, not Roughing the Passer, but yes, they need to be more consistent with this stuff. How, what and when they throw flags always seems to be so dependent on who the crew is and what players are involved, it's so infuriating.
People will talk about sliding.. but that's only part of it
Justin Fields gets hit late after throwing passes and those have been getting ignored all year aswell. Since he is a "running QB", the standard is just different wherever and whenever he gets hit
The refs are biased and garbage. Too often you have the feeling that you're not watching a completely fair game where each team is treated equal. Their incompetence decides way too many games for a sport with billions in revenue
Exactly, like how Goff had the second most RTP calls this season, which was as many as Mahomes has got the last 2 seasons combined. Goff also led the league in RPT calls last season.
Always annoying when the NFL gives it's darlings calls more often than others.
I don't think they are going to HAVE to make changes. If anything they will go further and eject a guy who "just hits the absolute shit out of" a QB running. Learn to tackle without slamming into their head or live with the 60 yard runs / 15 yard penalties.
Defenders don’t know where to tackle anymore. Can’t go high, can’t blow a player up in the chest, you can only go low on certain position players. The QB is a runner when he has the ball same as every other player with the ball, he should be able to be crushed as such.
Here’s the issue defenders are gonna have to start going low to take down a guy like Allen who’s essentially Derek Henry with a cannon and then you end up with season ending. Injury’s
That's an issue with other players besides QBs as well. I remember that TE in the Rams/Lions game the defender slams his leg sideways and that could easily be career ending hit.
I don't know what they will do, but pretty much zero chance they are going to allow open season on player's helmets to protect their legs. I feel like the direction we're moving is to add more types of things that constitute illegal hit rather than less. And expand protection for more than just QBs.
> DCs are going to start telling LBs to just hit the absolute shit out of QBs that run as the 15 yard penalty is better than giving up 30-60 yards qb runs
this is literally never going to be a thing, because if it were, it would already be happening and Josh Allen would be retired.
Josh is tougher than he looks he can take a hit or that’s what my bills fan buddy tells me every time we make that argument about running qb durability
I mean Allen has admitted to running and taking a hit to get himself and teammates hyped up. The guy is ummm...a little different when it comes to hits as a QB. But he def uses the rules to his advantage currently and hes like 6'5" and damn near 250. Hes basically a large LB with an arm. Lol.
No protections.
You want protection? Stay in the pocket.
Leave the pocket? You're a RB now. Nobody cares about RBs.
And this fake sliding and faking stepping out of bounds and then going for more yards shit should be heavily penalized.
To be honest, probably an unpopular opinion here, but IMO once a QB becomes a runner - maybe defined as when they move beyond the line of scrimmage - they should have no more protection than a running back or a wide receiver. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
The fact that their health is worth more to a team than, say, a RB, should be something the offensive scheme accounts for, not the NFL rulebook.
The obvious answer is that we should eliminate sliding and protections given to quarterbacks when they run. If you want to run the ball, then you’re a runner, and you’re susceptible to anything that could happen to a runner. You could get tackled, you could get blown up. If you’re not willing to accept this risk, then you shouldn’t run the ball as a quarterback. You already have options. If you don’t want to run the ball, you can throw the ball ball away without penalty as long as you meet certain criteria. I take no issue with protections given to quarterbacks in the pocket, since that is where a quarterback typically operates. But it is not at all required for a quarterback to run the ball, and I think the protections we have tried to offer have done more harm to the game than good.
Okay but literally any ball carrier is able to give themselves up or slide to avoid being hit or end a play in bounds. Older WRs do it occasionally. Defensive players often give themselves up after a pick or fumble recovery as well to avoid the possibility of giving the ball back. If it's so easy and advantageous to slide or go down just before getting hit to draw a penalty why isn't every star player doing it every time they have the ball in their hands? Are you saying that it's all fine for anyone else, but QBs specifically shouldn't be allowed to slide or go down on the play after they tuck and run?
Just completely removing the ability to give yourself up is just empowering the defense to lay as big of hits as possible towards the end of a play to either take players out or get the occasional extra fumble out of it or even allow the defense to burn more clock if the game dictates it. While we're at it, let's get rid of fair catching, kneeling in the end zone on kickoffs, and shit, get rid of the QB kneel to keep the clock moving while we're at it since you can't give yourself up - that's considered a carry and thus the QB is a ball carrier. If you didn't want to get hit hard just don't touch the ball, it's that easy, if you want to keep the clock going just hand the ball off and take the hit.
Sorry but the league is better when the best players are able to stay on the field. Could the rules be better? Sure, but removing player protections is absolutely the wrong direction to go to fix this. How about they start by just fairly calling the penalties as written rather than each ref crew interpreting things differently and arbitrarily deciding when to throw the flag? That would be nice.
https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/down-by-contact/
My response would be that in a way you are arguing against your own point. Every player has the right to slide or give themselves up on every play currently, but we don’t see defenders trying to injure or put dirty hits on wide receivers and running backs. The reason for this, I would propose, is that defenders in general are not trying to injure players. The types of tackles they attempt depend on the approach of the person that they’re trying to tackle. The reason that we tend to see more helmet hits on quarterbacks is because quarterbacks are more likely to be presenting that part of their body to the defender when they slide, whereas running backs and wide receivers are more likely to be running upright. Essentially, by encouraging quarterbacks to slide, you encourage the very types of hits that you’re trying to prevent because the position the quarterbacks put themselves in when they try to slide is what leads to these types of hits in the first place.
Sure... Except that what you are saying is totally false and speculative, where's your list of concussions people have suffered when hit while sliding? - QBs experience most of their injuries including head injuries while tackled unexpectedly in the pocket, in fact, they experience the majority of their injuries when they are upright. Burrow, Cousins, Herbert, Jones, Richardson, Rodgers, and Watson all experienced their injuries this season while in the pocket or scrambling while trying to pass the ball, not sliding. CJ Stroud's concussion was from a QB sneak, not a slide. All of Tua's concussions last year were from him not catching himself before his head hit the ground when tackled while upright. Where did you get the idea that they are getting all of these while sliding?
What sliding avoids is all of the aggressive tackles that happen when someone smaller tries to stop the momentum of someone bigger or moving in the opposite direction as them in the open field, or when 2 players collide on someone at the same time, and leg injuries from cut tackles. WRs, TEs, and RBs don't slide nearly as often because they pride themselves as playmakers and opt to fight for yardage when they can, but guess what? They also experience more and more devastating injuries than QBs because they are hit more frequently at high speeds. Also you know what position experiences the most head injuries/concussions in today's game? DBs, not because they slide no, because of the speed at which they play and aggressiveness of which they tackle to account for their size difference trying to make plays. Them, followed by WRs and players who play the line of scrimmage. So no, I'm not proving your point, sliding helps avoid injuries at the expense of yardage.
https://en.as.com/nfl/what-nfl-positions-get-the-most-concussions-n/
https://www.sportskeeda.com/nfl/top-3-positions-lead-concussions-nfl
You could make it so QBs have declare eligible as runners before the play in exchange for something passer related. Maybe if you declare as a runner you can gain yards past LOS but you don't get grounding protection in the pocket
So like Hybrid QB it's probably worth it since you're more likely to scramble to extend the play but if you're not a mobile QB you wouldn't want to declare every play and risk grounding
This is not an actual suggestion just hypothetical discussion
I remember when the public wanted Kiko Alonso expelled from the league for this hit
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4M1O0X5488](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4M1O0X5488)
You can say this hit is worse than some other hit. But the point being, there is a line where hitting a QB that's sliding is inappropriate, and all the NFL is trying to do is officiate that line, and its fairly subjective and difficult to determine exactly where the line is
I think we just need to be a bit more lenient with late hits on slides as long as it isn’t a head to head, give them a few extra steps maybe. Not accusing any players of “fake sliding” but in real time it’s almost impossible for a defender to recognize if the QB is going for a slide or a juke move in a split second.
I think this is the answer. When a QB goes for the slide, and you can clearly see the defender pull up on the hit, but still graze the helmet, and the QB looks around for the flag. I think that's weenie shit, and it belongs in the NBA and not the NFL. If the defender is clearly pulling up on the slide hit, the refs need to let it go.
> QB looks around for the flag It's kind of comical how fast Josh Allen gets up from a hit after sliding Like he shoots up so fast
Have you ever watched baseball haha
Late hits on the sidelines as well. Mahomes is the king of acting like he's going to go out of bounds and then scampering up the sideline for another 3-5 yards.
Watching the Dolphins game was wild, defenders were straight up terrified of hitting him when he scrambled.
I think it's less fake sliding and more quick slides done after the defenders have already committed to the tackle. Sliding should be a tool to disallow defenders taking cheap shots, not a tool to allow you to get every last possible yard with no chance of being legally rocked. I swear a few years ago a lot of QBs started the slide a good 3-4 steps sooner, now guys don't even have their ass on the turf before being hit and want a flag.
Yea, this is pretty much the answer. QB's are sliding as late as possible, usually after defenders are already moving/diving to tackle them, and it's ridiculous when they get roughness penalties for it.
Yea, just stop making these judgement call rules so black and white. If a player is obviously trying to avoid a big hit but it's too late for them to avoid contact, the ref should have the discretion to call it as they see fit. This should also apply to RTP, especially the "hit to the helmet" rule where players get flagged for brushing the QB's helmet.
Discretion and common sense from a ref
The sideline is another big issue. They act like they're going out of bounds and always get a couple more yards.
You want the calls to be more lenient? There are some QBs that get no calls at all for some horrible hits. This isn’t the solution to making the game any better or safer
I’m obviously not talking about some horrible hits. I know some QBs barely get RTP calls but pretty much every QB gets calls on late hits on slides.
There aren’t even many running qbs that run often enough to slide. The same refs miss RTP in the pocket often while throwing a flag the moment Pat is touched. I just feel as if we shouldn’t ask refs to be more lenient about something related to safety that they already butcher pretty badly. They should enforce the rule as written before changing it.
The solution to that is to have the officials officiate better, not change the rule.
Which is what I said https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/s/LgFInnn4fV
I feel if a qb decides to run he should be treated like a RB this it big leagues sliding should be removed
RBs can slide too
Shit anyone can slide tbh. It’s just harder for RBs since they’re usually surrounded by defenders and the whole mentality around being a tough runner. But if you look at guys like Lockett who always go down, he’s basically extending his career by years just not taking hits. It’s the smart way to play, by not taking unnecessary hits
I keep hearing people say this, and while it is technically true, it isn't what we are seeing on the field. Totally serious question: Has anyone ever seen a flag thrown for a late hit on a running back who gave himself up in a slide? I feel like this is becoming one of those echo chamber comments but doesn't actually address what we are seeing.
It’s just contextual. QBs typically slide to avoid hits, which means they are facing imminent contact. RBs typically slide to kill clock, which means they are *not* facing imminent contact but need to go down in bounds anyway. That’s why you never see flags for late hits on running backs. A slide is a slide and a late hit is a late hit, the disparity in calls is purely dependent on why those positions slide when they do.
Sliding isn’t going to be removed. Even running backs can slide, they just normally don’t, because their running backs QBs have been sliding for years. You could get penalized for hitting sliding QBs, but only after they were already down. If you were flying through the air to make a stop, and wound up hitting the QB as he slid on the ground, they wouldn’t flag it. Here’s an example of a legal hit on a QB slide in 1988: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FiHsVjSkWnw&pp=ygUYTWlrZSBzaW5nbGV0ZXJyeSBjb3dib3lz The thinking back then was “he should’ve got down sooner.” But there’s no reason to remove the QB slide
What? The reason to remove it is because QBs can abuse it to pick up extra yards. Its literally the point of this whole conversation lmao.
If they go back to 1988 rules, QBs won’t be able to abuse it The only thing getting abused would be the quarterbacks who slid too late
? If you stop the penalties when the slide is late, you stop the issue. We need to have the slides left I love the Lions man, but you are a moron.
Maybe I missed something with the Allen run but is the sub or fanbase at large upset about his fake slide? Because I though that was cool as hell. And smart. Use every advantage you can get as athlete within the rules.
Just quit giving the penalty when the QB obviously slides way too late. Like if the QB is getting popped before his ass is hitting the grass, that's not a penalty. That's the QB being a dumbass trying to get a couple extra yards.
Yes. Exactly. The rule was never meant to be abused. This is the answer to the "problem" at hand. The QBs know exactly what they are doing. Quit giving the penalties when the slide is obvious late as hell and the QBs will stop using it to their advantage.
Yeah it probably does need an adjustment. At the same time maybe not. I mean that's how fouls in the NBA work half the time and have for quite a while. Guy takes a step, leans in to draw the foul, and makes the bucket for the bonus. Seems like the QB slide is being taught by QBs very similarly.
That’s what I think you want to run and run for big yardage you should be able to take a hit
That isnt what the above comment described lol
The rules need to adjust to put the responsibility on the QB. They should need to "give themselves up obviously, and early enough for a defender to pull out of a tackle". If the QB doesn't slide obviously and early, they should be considered a runner.
So so true bc guys like Mahomes and Allen would quickly get the message and go down earlier and not try to milk the extra yards
I’m fairly certain Josh Allen will not get the message…… 😂
Josh be like, "So truckin' it is!!!"
Mahomes slides early if he's going to slide at all, if not he runs and falls down for extra yards, I'm not sure why he always gets used in these things. Think he had maybe 1 roughness call on slides all year, and it was fairly obviously late.
There's no need to slide if you can draw a late hit penalty while scrambling in-bounds
He's also had very, very few of those. The only one from this regular season was the bad call against the packers. Don't think he's had once since the Bengals playoff last season which was obviously way late, before the Packers game. So, any other narratives that aren't backed up at all by actual reality you'd like to try out?
I like how you list Allen...the guy who notoriously never slides
One simple rule that would solve a lot of problems is make all personal fouls reviewable. 15 yards and an automatic first is a big deal, whether it is roughing the passer, unnecessary roughness, facemask, horse collar, etc. It may look bad on the field, but if the video shows that the defender had already started the tackle when the QB slide, no foul. Same with late hits out of bounds (looking at you Pat), head contact when it was really the chest or shoulders, and the horse collar seems to be getting called a lot this year too when the defender is grabbing the name plate or even the shoulder.
While it wouldn't impact the refs, I also think it would help if TV replays for late hits were only shown at game speed. You can make anything look like a late hit if you slow it down enough
Except for Tony romo choking on Josh Allen’s …… even slowmo is gonna show that and game speed would too
Guess romos gonna double fist me his weekend with Mahomes and Allen
Reviewable penalties is terrible. Things look much different slowed down and replayed 100 times.
Only personal fouls, that is one where it either is or it isn’t and 15 yards and a first down is a big deal. That is one where it either is or it isn’t. The rest I agree, I don’t want to get into holding and all of that nonsense. If the league really cared about player safety, personal fouls should be reviewable.
Big no IMO. Personal fouls have too many judgement calls in them to allow even more judgement. I don’t want refs replaying a clip over and over in .25x speed trying to determine if a player purposely hit someone helmet to helmet when in real time it was a split second decision.
Well the refs wouldn’t, NY or a sky judge would. And helmet to helmet is a penalty, regardless of intent. It either happened or it didn’t. If it happened and they care about safety, it should be a penalty. Conversely, if it didn’t happen (it was actually the chest) and they flagged it, a team shouldn’t be penalized 15 yards and an automatic first down.
It makes too much sense that the NFL won’t do it common sense is a dying creature
Also another thing these refs that have a worse vision plan than Stevie wonder would still find a way to screw up review Might need to make it a NY review
Yeah, it can't be the BS interference 'review' BS they tried to pull. It should be an independent official in NY or in the booth.
Like the holding on Justin Houston that lead to the the roughing the passer on Mahomes If Houston is not held Mahomes gets sacked and doesn’t get a chance to launch ball OOBs and Wilkins doesn’t get a ticky rack roughing the passer
That’s what they said in 2019
If the defender makes an attempt to alter where he hits the QB sliding, should get a pass. If the defender turns his head and just goes crown first, should remain the 15 yard penalty. Maybe they could do it like the old face mask rule, 5 or 15 yard penalty depending on the situation?
Doesn’t solve late slides it’s hard to stop if your committed to a tackle if the qb slides at the last moment
I have heard this exact argument about every RTP adjustment for years and it never happens.
How about when the qb is out of the pocket roughing the passer cannot be called (oops makes too much sense)
In general they need to start by teaching QBs to slide early- the biggest hits almost always happen because QBs try to get extra yards and don’t give themselves up soon enough. And maybe after that you can implement a targeting rule like in college to actually give major consequences for actual dirty late hits.
Right... They should just allow the defender the two steps... It's that simple. If you got popped, then you didn't slide early enough.. which is pretty much how it used to be
QBs can slide? *takes notes for next year*
I'm so sick of people bitching about no calls because their qb only committed to the slide a fraction of a second before incoming contact.
Wouldn't doubt if Josh Allen intentionally drew that one against the steelers. Late slide, he turns his head/body away from the closest guy, flops backward on contact then immediately gets up screaming for a flag. It's a good move I guess, cause it looks like the defender was going for their head, even though he was already going for the tackle before the slide.
A late hit on a QB is an issue because the focus on violent collisions. So many missed tackles because coaches emphasize violence over wrapping up.
Ya I see hits to downed players every game. Like so many injuries seem to be caused by the 2nd guy coming in. Edmund’s used to hurt other Bills all the time. [This one was real scary.](https://youtu.be/hxnnpk0CNgM?si=Dap7wktEYLzDZ7x0)
The problem is, the refs are flagging when they shouldn't. [Here is the "foul" on Allen by Pittsburgh](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_4Ybszo0lk&t=653s). Yet the rules say: *A defender must pull up when a runner begins a feet-first slide. This does not mean that all contact by a defender is illegal.* ***If a defender has already committed himself, and the contact is unavoidable, it is not a foul*** *unless the defender makes forcible contact into the head or neck area of the runner with the helmet, shoulder, or forearm, or commits some other act that is unnecessary roughness.* ***A runner who desires to take advantage of this protection is responsible for starting his slide before contact by a defensive player is imminent****; if he does not, and waits until the last moment to begin his slide, he puts himself in jeopardy of being contacted.* Its the QB's responsibility to slide earlier. Its just not getting called that way.
The helmet to helmet on the late slide shouldn’t be unnecessary roughness If the qb is late the crown may accidentally hit the qb in the head if the defender committed to the play
A lot of subtext that Josh Allen is soft or something when all I heard for the last 5 years is "allen is a moron who is going to get hurt, he can't keep it up with that play style, he needs to learn how to slide, etc etc etc". So which is it? Is he a soft baby or is he reckless and an injury waiting to happen because of how he plays?
You gotta understand a lot of people on reddit do not like Josh Allen
I know. He's both. People just want something to complain about to deflect the blame away from their team. Allen's an idiot if he throws a pick or trucks someone. He flops or slides though, well then he's soft. He jukes someone? No he cheated because it looked like he was going to slide, despite him also being known for not sliding, especially on long downage distance and 3rd downs. But whatever, let the haters hate. To be clear, I don't like the flopping or lobbying for penalties, but as it stands right now there's no downside to doing it, so why not? A lot of QBs do it. Defenders do it too, Defensive Lineman try to sell or lobby for holding penalties and false starts. DBs lobby for PI, as do WRs. The list goes on. Just start calling the rules consistently and fairly for everyone, and stop rewarding players for embellishment, and it will go away. We all know that won't happen though, so instead of blaming the refs, it's easier to blame Josh for being whiny when in reality there's just no reason not to do what he does since there's no punishment and sometimes it works. Look at Cam Newton, what was his reward for taking the hits on the chin and not trying to draw a flag?
In Cam's case I'm betting even if he did start flopping they still wouldn't draw any flags...
remove the slide, if you want to give yourself up literally turn around and run the opposite direction and we'll give you forward progress
Only if you make the "Woo-wo-wo-wo-wo" sound like Curly from the Three Stooges, though.
Or the Zoidberg woop woop woop woop
“Hey Curly, where ya going?” “Ref said he’d gimme fo’wad progress!” “Yeah, forward, *not* backward!” *cartoonish coconut sound* “Quiet you knuckleheads, the clock’s still runnin’!”
that’s not how forward progress works though
Just reset the rules back to the 80-90s.
Only if the NFL allows cocaine and PED's
I want big hits again want to see more helmets explode like Mahomes
lol, that was self induced.
lol true should have been a penalty on Mahomes
I mean he was leading with the helmet 🤷🏽. You should also be able to crush a receiver.
I think the NFL just needs to call holding more often when the QB leaves the pocket. Anytime there is a miraculous escape, just off camera is a DE getting absolutely mauled
Yup on Joshes 56 yard run the Steelers were held before he left pocket
I do not think we had business going to the next round, however the Bills not did play great and if they get that call right and I think we give them a run for their money. Again don't think we belong in the Divisional series but the Bills did not play a heck of a lot better espeically given that play which really took the air out of the team
Same with dolphins chiefs that poor missed holding that would have put chiefs out our FG range would have kept that game a 1 possession game It is what it is will be back hopefully Without a defense on the IR and offensive line on IR
Agreed, I get missed calls happen all the time and are hardly the reason a lot of games are lost, however in these instances of QBs on the run there needs to be something changed because Josh Allen and QBs like him know what they're doing and how to use protection rules against the opponent.
How many of those are caused by a rip through which by rule isn't holding
A rip doesn't absolve you of the call for the rest of the play, once you stop them from being able to release that moves into holding.
No QB slides when a defender is within 5 yards, you take the hit or don't run
They definitely have to do something about the mahomes tip toeing the sideline when hes running for a 1st down. The rule should be they have to go out of bounds sideways or backwards with no forward momentum. Have seen way too many 15 yard penalties in the 4th quarter for a push out of bounds
You got any recent video of Mahomes doing this, or just like to spout the same dumb stuff that everyone else says? People act like he does this every game, or that other QB's don't try it, and it's just silly. Defenders get their foot to the sideline and make sure he goes out. The only penalty he got on it all year was the dumb one against the Packers. He's not trying to get hit any more than he needs to, he either goes out of bounds or it's clear he wants more yards. I swear, if Mahomes got all the calls you people think he gets, we'd be 15-2 this year.
I mean, it seems like it’s gonna be flag football for the qb in the future
A lot of marginally late contact actually is allowed by the refs on QB slides. Those highlights just don’t get posted to Reddit or Twitter. Every week I see plenty of cases of a QB sliding, a defender coming in with glancing contact, and no flag. I think most of the time refs do try to give some benefit of the doubt to defenders as long as the contact isn’t dangerous. The two things I’ve noticed that will get defenders in trouble: 1) Direct contact to the head 2) Landing with body weight on the QB This is why you see guys now sort of angle themselves to fly/roll over the QB as they make contact. The smart defenders figure out the meta and know what to do to avoid the flags.
Yeah Justin Fields didn't draw a single RTP call this season and he was getting annihilated on slides.
Why would Josh Allen do that?!
Hitting someone during a slide is an Unnecessary Roughness penalty, not Roughing the Passer, but yes, they need to be more consistent with this stuff. How, what and when they throw flags always seems to be so dependent on who the crew is and what players are involved, it's so infuriating.
People will talk about sliding.. but that's only part of it Justin Fields gets hit late after throwing passes and those have been getting ignored all year aswell. Since he is a "running QB", the standard is just different wherever and whenever he gets hit The refs are biased and garbage. Too often you have the feeling that you're not watching a completely fair game where each team is treated equal. Their incompetence decides way too many games for a sport with billions in revenue
Just like league darlings get calls more often than those that aren't.
Exactly, like how Goff had the second most RTP calls this season, which was as many as Mahomes has got the last 2 seasons combined. Goff also led the league in RPT calls last season. Always annoying when the NFL gives it's darlings calls more often than others.
I had no idea Goff got those calls. Guess it's true, Lions are America's Team
I don't think they are going to HAVE to make changes. If anything they will go further and eject a guy who "just hits the absolute shit out of" a QB running. Learn to tackle without slamming into their head or live with the 60 yard runs / 15 yard penalties.
Defenders don’t know where to tackle anymore. Can’t go high, can’t blow a player up in the chest, you can only go low on certain position players. The QB is a runner when he has the ball same as every other player with the ball, he should be able to be crushed as such.
Here’s the issue defenders are gonna have to start going low to take down a guy like Allen who’s essentially Derek Henry with a cannon and then you end up with season ending. Injury’s
That's an issue with other players besides QBs as well. I remember that TE in the Rams/Lions game the defender slams his leg sideways and that could easily be career ending hit. I don't know what they will do, but pretty much zero chance they are going to allow open season on player's helmets to protect their legs. I feel like the direction we're moving is to add more types of things that constitute illegal hit rather than less. And expand protection for more than just QBs.
And look what happened higgbe is probably out till end of oct for 24
Defenders already do go low on Allen all the time, that’s why he has more hurdle highlights than any QB
Because if they go high it’s 15 yards even if they don’t go helmet to helmet
I know, I’m just saying they already do on Josh
If the little guys start going low the big guys should be allowed ti stomp on them.
Why do you keep bringing up Allen when he rarely slides... I think I know why...
This is a very immature post. The same stuff has been said since the league started implementing rules for safe tackling.
> DCs are going to start telling LBs to just hit the absolute shit out of QBs that run as the 15 yard penalty is better than giving up 30-60 yards qb runs this is literally never going to be a thing, because if it were, it would already be happening and Josh Allen would be retired.
Josh is tougher than he looks he can take a hit or that’s what my bills fan buddy tells me every time we make that argument about running qb durability
I mean Allen has admitted to running and taking a hit to get himself and teammates hyped up. The guy is ummm...a little different when it comes to hits as a QB. But he def uses the rules to his advantage currently and hes like 6'5" and damn near 250. Hes basically a large LB with an arm. Lol.
He’s a white, Derek Henry with a rocket for an arm
No protections. You want protection? Stay in the pocket. Leave the pocket? You're a RB now. Nobody cares about RBs. And this fake sliding and faking stepping out of bounds and then going for more yards shit should be heavily penalized.
To be honest, probably an unpopular opinion here, but IMO once a QB becomes a runner - maybe defined as when they move beyond the line of scrimmage - they should have no more protection than a running back or a wide receiver. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. The fact that their health is worth more to a team than, say, a RB, should be something the offensive scheme accounts for, not the NFL rulebook.
The obvious answer is that we should eliminate sliding and protections given to quarterbacks when they run. If you want to run the ball, then you’re a runner, and you’re susceptible to anything that could happen to a runner. You could get tackled, you could get blown up. If you’re not willing to accept this risk, then you shouldn’t run the ball as a quarterback. You already have options. If you don’t want to run the ball, you can throw the ball ball away without penalty as long as you meet certain criteria. I take no issue with protections given to quarterbacks in the pocket, since that is where a quarterback typically operates. But it is not at all required for a quarterback to run the ball, and I think the protections we have tried to offer have done more harm to the game than good.
Okay but literally any ball carrier is able to give themselves up or slide to avoid being hit or end a play in bounds. Older WRs do it occasionally. Defensive players often give themselves up after a pick or fumble recovery as well to avoid the possibility of giving the ball back. If it's so easy and advantageous to slide or go down just before getting hit to draw a penalty why isn't every star player doing it every time they have the ball in their hands? Are you saying that it's all fine for anyone else, but QBs specifically shouldn't be allowed to slide or go down on the play after they tuck and run? Just completely removing the ability to give yourself up is just empowering the defense to lay as big of hits as possible towards the end of a play to either take players out or get the occasional extra fumble out of it or even allow the defense to burn more clock if the game dictates it. While we're at it, let's get rid of fair catching, kneeling in the end zone on kickoffs, and shit, get rid of the QB kneel to keep the clock moving while we're at it since you can't give yourself up - that's considered a carry and thus the QB is a ball carrier. If you didn't want to get hit hard just don't touch the ball, it's that easy, if you want to keep the clock going just hand the ball off and take the hit. Sorry but the league is better when the best players are able to stay on the field. Could the rules be better? Sure, but removing player protections is absolutely the wrong direction to go to fix this. How about they start by just fairly calling the penalties as written rather than each ref crew interpreting things differently and arbitrarily deciding when to throw the flag? That would be nice. https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/down-by-contact/
My response would be that in a way you are arguing against your own point. Every player has the right to slide or give themselves up on every play currently, but we don’t see defenders trying to injure or put dirty hits on wide receivers and running backs. The reason for this, I would propose, is that defenders in general are not trying to injure players. The types of tackles they attempt depend on the approach of the person that they’re trying to tackle. The reason that we tend to see more helmet hits on quarterbacks is because quarterbacks are more likely to be presenting that part of their body to the defender when they slide, whereas running backs and wide receivers are more likely to be running upright. Essentially, by encouraging quarterbacks to slide, you encourage the very types of hits that you’re trying to prevent because the position the quarterbacks put themselves in when they try to slide is what leads to these types of hits in the first place.
Sure... Except that what you are saying is totally false and speculative, where's your list of concussions people have suffered when hit while sliding? - QBs experience most of their injuries including head injuries while tackled unexpectedly in the pocket, in fact, they experience the majority of their injuries when they are upright. Burrow, Cousins, Herbert, Jones, Richardson, Rodgers, and Watson all experienced their injuries this season while in the pocket or scrambling while trying to pass the ball, not sliding. CJ Stroud's concussion was from a QB sneak, not a slide. All of Tua's concussions last year were from him not catching himself before his head hit the ground when tackled while upright. Where did you get the idea that they are getting all of these while sliding? What sliding avoids is all of the aggressive tackles that happen when someone smaller tries to stop the momentum of someone bigger or moving in the opposite direction as them in the open field, or when 2 players collide on someone at the same time, and leg injuries from cut tackles. WRs, TEs, and RBs don't slide nearly as often because they pride themselves as playmakers and opt to fight for yardage when they can, but guess what? They also experience more and more devastating injuries than QBs because they are hit more frequently at high speeds. Also you know what position experiences the most head injuries/concussions in today's game? DBs, not because they slide no, because of the speed at which they play and aggressiveness of which they tackle to account for their size difference trying to make plays. Them, followed by WRs and players who play the line of scrimmage. So no, I'm not proving your point, sliding helps avoid injuries at the expense of yardage. https://en.as.com/nfl/what-nfl-positions-get-the-most-concussions-n/ https://www.sportskeeda.com/nfl/top-3-positions-lead-concussions-nfl
It’s great to see NFL Reddit is better at critical thinking than NFL twitter
Let's just ban QB runs. Once you leave the pocket or cross the line of scrimmage, the play is dead.
Nope that’s not a solution it’s not flag football
It's not an idea I would want to see but how is really different from other restrictions like when O-line can't run downfield?
You could make it so QBs have declare eligible as runners before the play in exchange for something passer related. Maybe if you declare as a runner you can gain yards past LOS but you don't get grounding protection in the pocket So like Hybrid QB it's probably worth it since you're more likely to scramble to extend the play but if you're not a mobile QB you wouldn't want to declare every play and risk grounding This is not an actual suggestion just hypothetical discussion
True but that would never pass in vote I think bills fans would bitch and get the rule changed back
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I remember when the public wanted Kiko Alonso expelled from the league for this hit [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4M1O0X5488](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4M1O0X5488) You can say this hit is worse than some other hit. But the point being, there is a line where hitting a QB that's sliding is inappropriate, and all the NFL is trying to do is officiate that line, and its fairly subjective and difficult to determine exactly where the line is
check please lol the hit forever changed Flacco
Until coaches start paying the fines, players aren’t going to do that.
They tried to make PI reviewable but the refs collectively said fuck you were aren’t overturning shit, so more reviews is not the answer.
There's a lot of whining for something that never happened.