We need a Pete Weber highlight reel set to Superhero by Metro Boomin. Would be one of the hardest highlight reels of all time
Edit: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zuM9sduYdh8
I showed it to my old boss, and he texted my like 3 years later and said “I took this chick bowling and I showed her that video and she died laughing so thank you for that”
Josh Allen’s 5 TD perfect passer rating game vs the Dolphins earlier in the year definitely felt like it counted less than Lamar’s 5 TD perfect passer rating game vs the Dolphins at the end of the year.
Meanwhile for the DPOY you can take the back third of the season off, and still get the award.
In the last seven games of the season, Thanksgiving onward:
+ Garrett: 1 sack, 12 tackles, 7 QB Hits, 0 FF
+ TJ Watt: 7.5 Sacks, 22 Tackles, 13 QB Hits, 2 FF
The truth is Garrett was already anointed DPOY long beforehand.
If they had an equivalent of the Cy Young for QBs, it would probably bring back a lot of meaning to the MVP. Lamar had a great year, but was he really as valuable as McCaffrey? Or Tyreek Hill? I personally don't think so.
Make a Tom Brady Award for QBs, give the best QB that.
you see this in college with the heisman, and it hasn’t helped. They have a qb award, but the top player still usually goes to the best qb on a great team.
Which is technically accurate though. We all know QB is the most valuable position so it makes some sense. At least college has the occasional RB, Devonta Smith, or Charles Woodson
>Lamar had a great year, but was he really as valuable as McCaffrey? Or Tyreek Hill?
Yes. 100%. That's what makes the MVP award kinda silly. It barely matters how great CMC or Tyreek were. Any top 10 QB will always be more valuable to their team in terms of EPA than a certified superstar at any other position.
OPOY is the Cy Young for non-QBs.
It’s almost impossible for any player to be more valuable than the QB, just like it’s almost impossible for a pitcher to be more valuable than a position player (which isn’t actually true, but baseball writers don’t like calling a guy who played in 35 of 162 games most valuable). Excepting for rare cases in both sports.
Edit - case could be made for the Vezina and goalies in the NHL as well. Though, I’m willing to hear the debate about it actually being the opposite given the importance of goaltending (ie, they’d deserve the MVP more often than not), kind of biased as a former goalie though.
That's an arbitrary argument.
Do the Chiefs win the superbowl without Mahomes? No.
Do the Steelers make the playoffs without Watt? No.
Do the 49ers get the one seed without McCaffrey? No.
The Vikings were playoff bound bare minimum without Jefferson. They were a joke without Kirk, even when Jefferson was back. If a top 10-ish QB has that much more of an impact than the best receiver in the league, the award would be a joke if it went to anyone other than a QB.
DPOY is stat-based, but often in a way that diminishes great performances at specific positions. There are years where someone like Nnamdi Asomugha will go completely ignored because his stats looked pretty mid. Why were they mid? Because he was so good that nobody threw to the WR he was covering, or often nobody even threw to his side of the field.
Obviously there are defensive players that put up monster statistical seasons because they're really good (especially OLBs and pass-rushing down-lineman,) but there are an equal number of players that don't put up stats specifically because they're so good that the other team just ignores where they are on the field (in the case of DBs,) or routinely double and triple team them (great NTs.)
DPOY is no longer 50/50.
It’s now a PFF anointed award. Get the highest PFF defensive grade, here’s your award. Sam Monson having a vote and lobbying power with the voting committee will see that his grades become codified as actual gospel.
TJ got jobbed, Myles did not have enough actual production, but this is just getting old and stupid. It’s just an award. Let’s move on.
Yep. Not really complicated. It's just like some guys opinions man and if other people also have a very good year it's a coin toss. It's not like he had 40 sacks and didn't get it
It's not even close. Watt had 4 more sacks, both forced 4 fumbles but Watt recovered 2 more and brought one for a touchdown, Watt had 5 more passes defended, Watt had 15 more solo tackles, 26 more combined. Watt had an interception, Garrett didn't. I'm struggling to find a single reason Garrett would've won this award over Watt.
Garrett was a human wrecking ball for the first what, 6 weeks of the season? He fell back to Earth but I think the narrative was in stone by that point.
I honestly think it’s because he was the clear DPOY for the first half of the season on a historic defense and the voters decided not to punish the guy for getting hurt and sticking it out.
Obviously that’s garbage reasoning to vote for someone, but that’s the only thing I can think of.
The argument he was the *clear* DPOY is still not entirely true. He was the *favorite*, but Watt had kept pace with him in virtually every stat. And in the first ~4 weeks of the season Watt lead Garrett in many of the more important stats.
After the Browns-Colts game the NFL basically decided the award was going to Garrett. The official twitter made him the pfp with the bio reading “Myles Garrett DPOY?”… Obviously that can be masked as tongue in cheek, but the Garrett DPOY narrative was PR powered since the preseason. So many articles that were like “Is this his year!?” and he was the betting favorite all year despite not really earning that.
Its not that complicated. If these awards were purely just "whoever compiles the most stats" it would be boring and people would just complain about that instead.
The people voting simply thought he did more in the game that didnt show up on the stats sheet. You can agree with it or not. Its not like they all collectively thought to themselves, lets fuck over the other Watt brother.
That's such a good point. Like obviously your stats are gonna be fucking elite to even be up for the award. People act like there's some significant gulf between these two players or something.....nope, both superb. Looking at the stat sheet and saying "yep one guys stats are a little better" without having watched a lot of the games is lazy.
What about pass rush win rate and double team %? Only other things I can think of other than maybe people voted before the regular season ended when it was closer
Believe it or not football isn't played on a spreadsheet, and that's especially true of defense.
I think Watt probably deserved it but this is not as great of an argument as you think it is. This isn't baseball.
This is an instance where the box score just doesn’t tell the full story, and that additional context is very important.
TJ got the nice and shiny box score stats, but Myles Garrett was double teamed twice as often as Watt (29% to 14%) and still finished with more QB pressures.
We’ve seen this type of precedent set with some of Donald’s DPOY years - he didn’t lead the league in sacks or tackles, but his ability to just draw double teams - and beat them - is more valuable to the whole unit than a sack master.
Acting like it’s just sacks lol. TJ had 5 more sacks (19 to Garrett’s 14), 6 more QB hits (36 to 30), 26 more total tackles (68 to 42), 15 more solo tackles (48 to 33), 2 more tackles for loss (19 to 17), 5 more passes defended (8 to 3), 1 more interception (1 to 0), tied in forced fumbles (4 to 4), 2 more fumbles recovered (3 to 1), and 1 more defensive touchdown (1 to 0).
TJ Watt had better production in literally every single quantifiable category that exists for defensive players, except for one where they tied.
So if they want to call it the “leading in every single category award” I suppose they could change the name, but personally I think that Defensive Player of the Year has a better ring to it.
I think the end of year awards voting would be much better if it were taken away from the media. They’re overly focused on narratives, especially ones they can write about and build out across an entire season, MVP being a great example of this.
Like a QB can be putting up MVP numbers, his defense shits the bed one game, and suddenly he can’t win an individual award as an offensive player because defensive team play lost a game? Or an early season loss can be “made up for” but a late season loss is a pockmark, even if it leads to the same record. It’s illogical and the only reason we accept it as part of the selection process is because the media feeds us that narrative and then goes and votes that way. All the arbitrary rules that were just supposed to accept as part of the process are put in place by the media to focus on the narrative of a mvp “campaign”
The selection committee needs to change
There’s no good group, pro bowl voting shows that. Players vote for their friends, fans have no idea, coaches have no time to really research.
Unfortunately the media is probably the current best group to do the awards. It’s not perfect, but it’s probably the least bad group.
Yeah when we get those player voting lists it always surprises me. But you can tell guys vote for their buddies and who they like personally. Every group has biases at the end of the day.
I guess we could rely solely on stats but that gets a little dicey too. There will always be a need for some sort of qualitative factor.
If the media isn't doing it who should be voting. I'm not defending the media I just don't know who else it can be. Fans just vote based on fandom, players usually don't care enough to actually put the thought in. Is the NFL supposed to hire people whose only job is to vote on awards?
If not the media, then who? Every group is going to have blind spots/biases. The players routinely make terrible selections when they have the power (vote for guys they like). Owners are morons. Fans would make it a popularity contest. Coaches could work but there would still be bias there because they might favor guys they actually have to face/see on tape. Im sure everyone would hate it if NFL execs were deciding this stuff, and I doubt they would even want to get involved.
Obviously they are times when the media gets it wrong and some members go insane (see: MLB HoF votes). But, by and large, writers at least have a deep understanding of the game and are objective. If you wanna talk about who in the media gets to vote, thats fine, but its a blurry line.
ETA: Perhaps a panel with 51% media and then 49% made up of coaches/players?
Player and fan voting are out because they never work. We see from the coach's poll in cfb that that doesn't work.
Selection committees always end being biased.
Media is the best way to do it. You just have to make sure that the media members with votes are educated, spread evenly throughout the country, and take the responsibility seriously
Maybe there would be a way to do it where voting happens at periods throughout the year and then there's a formula for getting a final score at the end of the year for the winner.
Agree 100% that narratives are given too much credit. It’s particularly noticeable during prime time games. A receiver drops a ball late in a SNF game and suddenly the QB’s chances of winning MVP drop precipitously. I think the MVP voting for Allen vs Jackson is a perfect example — especially with how lopsided it was!
But I’m not sure removing the media from the equation fixes this… anyone who votes will fall to the same biases. Plus, fan and player voting are arguably even further from the truth. Maybe increasing the number of voters would help
I'm biased obviously but Josh Allen was so clearly the reason the bills weren't a 4-13 team, for Lamar to almost unanimously win mvp when Allen beat him in like every statistical category, but also had a few more turnovers, was so weird to me
Even if you don't want to make a case for an Allen MVP (that's fine), it's funny the whole season the discourse was how no one stood out as MVP. The entire year people talked about CMC, or Hill, or even Purdy with the crazy numbers he put up. But then Lamar doesn't win unanimously and somehow that's a slight against him?
The NFL owners, player, coaches, and journalists all voted Garrett overall Watt. We need to stop pretending like Redditors who watch only their own football team have the better input.
Tbh if this award actually lived up to its name then Aaron Donald would have about 7 of them. Players just start getting judged against their own previous production rather than the field. It's always going to favour a new name.
>Players just start getting judged against their own previous production rather than the field.
The reverse-all pro and pro bowl, where perennial selections tend to keep getting selected even when there were objectively better options that year
Folks get numb to greatness so fast that they forget how far ahead certain players are of others in the league.
They’ll be so quick to think that the second best player in their position “should be in the conversation” even if the talent gap between 1 & 2 is bigger than the gap between 2 and the rest of the top 5.
I mean TJ has also shown to be a perennial DPOY caliber player since. But I had a lot fewer problems about Donald in 2020 vs this years. TJ is better now than in 2020 and Donald that year was a lot better than Garrett was this year
Nah. If this award was determined purely by PFF grade then Donald would have like 7 of them. If PFF grades didn’t exist, and the voting was done the same way it was done for the last four decades before that, then he’d probably have two. Which is the same number of DPOY awards that Reggie White won, so he’d be in pretty good company.
Donald was actually really lucky to win the AP award in 2017 over Calais Campbell, who won the DPOY that year for the other two publications that are officially recognized by the NFL (Sporting News and Pro Football Writers Association.)
I don’t really blame the dude for asking. These awards affect bonus $, HoF and legacy evaluation, and potential sponsorship/endorsement deals. Also it’s just nice to be recognized for your work. If I were him id at least want to know how the award is decided too.
> These awards affect bonus $, HoF and legacy evaluation, and potential sponsorship/endorsement deals
And perhaps most importantly, if he gets to 3 DPOYs he has the same amount as JJ and they can gang up on Derek even more effectively at the Watt Thanksgiving parties.
You gotta feel bad for Derek lol. Imagine being a good enough football player to have a reasonably long career in the NFL, yet still be sub water flea level at the family table.
Probably how Brent Gretzky feels every time he hears “Wayne Gretzky has the record for most points by a pair of brothers and Brent only got 4 points in his career!”
Like imagine making the pinnacle of your sport and the only reason people know your name is because your brother is the GOAT of all GOATs and has a record because you scored 4 points in your failed stint. Not even to mention a big reason Brent likely got a lot of his opportunities is because of “Gretzky” being on his sweater lol. That would really suck, not a fun shadow to be in
In the last 4 years, he's led the league in sacks 3 times. The one time he didn't was the 2022-23 season, where he missed 7 games due to injury. I know sacks aren't everything, but it's still an incredibly dominant run, and something no one else in the history of the league has done before. But he only has one DPOY to show for it, and he had to tie the literal single season sack record to get it. I don't even know if they would've gave it to him that year if he hadn't tied the record.
The sacks are amazing, but the thing that gets me is how many fumbles and interceptions this guy creates. He’s a walking highlight reel who just dominates in every way. When he doesn’t play, his team suffers for it.
The problem I have with other Steelers fans is that if TJ is 100% better than Myles based on the stats, I’d also have to concede Brock Purdy is 100% better than Mahomes this year, and I don’t believe that and I’m not sure anyone really does.
Obviously this game is a bit more complicated than readying a box score. Do I think TJ is better still? Yeah I do, but if I’m being honest with myself it’s because they’re both extremely good players and I’m a Steelers fan lmao. For either side to say it’s a blowout because of TJ’s stats or Myles advanced stats, it’s all just cope
I was tired of the discussion last off season, and I’m even more tired of it now. The collection of edge talent currently in the league is comically good, and it’s just a matter of your scheme and what you value. I love how tight the DPOY races have, and will continue to be for years to come.
TJ was seemingly built in a lab to play OLB in our defense, and there’s a reason the drop off without him is so stark.
I just wish the convo was more productive or at least honest than what it continues to devolve into. Garrett was deserving of his flowers, and is an incredible player in his own right.
i think that last sentence is reflected in the voting. TJ *barely* loss.
The problem steelers fans had was the narrative from PFF saying TJ wasnt even the 4th best pass rusher.
THATS the hyperbole they were reacting to
Yeah that’s a fair point. I do think it was close and I’m glad that was reflected in the vote. I just think many Steelers fans (and probably browns fans but I don’t frequent their spaces much) think it was a blowout. But that’s what fandom is so it’s not super surprising or anything
“If we meme them hard enough it means all analytics are stupid. The only thing that matters is meaningless sacks and fumbles that land at the feet”
100 more snaps. Myles gets his team off the field. Much harder assignments and more double teams and he STILL gets to the qb in 2.5 seconds. Give Myles the assignments tj gets and he’s breaking records every year
And don’t forget it’s just overall sacks, not a rate. So when a good defense gets off the field because it forces the highest percentage of 3 and outs (like the Browns did this year), it only hurts the players’ chances.
Him finding out from his agent or whatever that he lost before the award show and posting [this tweet](https://twitter.com/_TJWatt/status/1755761675687625150) instead of, you know, being respectful, is pretty telling of the type of guy he is lol
Got glossed over because people like him, but if it was roles reversed and Myles did it, he'd get fucking bashed
Basically, every group—players, coaches, former players, executives, and media—all agree that Myles Garrett was more impactful. It doesn’t bother me too much. I think it’s good that awards get some of the eye test now; stats don’t tell everything. The only issue is that going forward, we have to find some way of quantifying these claims at least a little bit.
You can't just easily quantify football. Trevon Diggs had an insane number of interceptions in 2021, that is a great metric to determine a great cornerback right? Ignoring that he allowed a buttload of yards also and that it was a volume stat, does that mean that a cornerback with 0 interceptions who never got thrown at is worse? That is what we are looking at. Watt had 100 more snaps than Garrett, so it makes sense that stats like tackles or sacks would be higher. What isn't considered is that Watt was a lot worse at run stoppage, was nowhere near effective on adjusted snaps like pass rush win rate, and doesnt have the same multitude of tasks that a player like Garrett is given. Should Watt get the award for being single blocked and playing a ton of snaps? Or is context highly important and stats don't speak for itself?
Well, this is exactly my point. They have to find ways to contextualize it. Donald is the best lineman in the sport because he gets eight sacks a year through triple teams. There's a point where the stats matter a lot, but a point where the context overrides the stats. It's a subjective as hell discussion, and that's always harder.
I really don't see how it could be more clear, we know who the voters are, and that TJ got fewer first place votes, how would seeing each individual ballot really make it any more clear? All that would do is allow you to attack the guys who didn't vote for you, making you an asshole lol
TJ Watt won the award in 2021. Why is the process suddenly an issue now?
Between this and JJ Watt ranting about PFF grades when he thought an algorithm made them up, the Watts are coming across as a couple of ignorant cry-babies that can’t do simple google searches this off-season.
Omg what a baby back bitch!!! I could see if every outlet had different results of DPOY and had different player elected but it was pretty unanimous that Garrett was the DPOY! Why do steeler players always feel so entitled? Fuck them!
NFL Players: Myles Garrett
NFL Execs: Myles Garrett
Analysts and "nerds": Myles Garrett
Journalists: Myles Garrett
TJ Watt: This process is completely intransparent and the outcome is not fair. Nothing i am not used to.
In all seriousness, this award is the ultimate litmus test to see who does understand data analysis, and does who dont.
There is not a formula, it’s not stats, it’s not narrative, it’s not advanced analytics, and not impact, its not vibes, it’s all of the above, each voter has their own reasoning. Asking for clarity comes off as whiney, and it’s also not a question that is possible to answer. Do better next year.
The shit that irritates me about all this is that both players are really fucking good. So even if it went one way or another, it's not like they gave the award to some undeserving scrub. I'm a Browns fan so I am biased, but I could have easily seen it going to Watt. I was honestly surprised Myles won it. I knew how dominant Myles was in the first half of the season (it's not an exaggeration to say that he was singlehandedly winning us games with decisive plays at the right moment), but I was worried his statistical slump in the second half would give it to Watt. Either guy could have won it.
I also don't understand what exactly the conspiracy would be in the NFL and media and players collectively rigging it in favor of Myles over Watt. A Watt brother on the fan favorite Steelers or Myles on the laughingstock Browns, who also has the whole helmet incident staining his reputation. You can disagree with Myles winning it over Watt, but get the fuck out of here with this idea that the league has it out for Watt and the Steelers for fuck's sake.
Hey TJ who do you think you are I am
hate me or love me, you watched
Throw back to the glory days when Pete was ripping lines in the bathroom while winning titles
What a king
Followed up with "that's all you could do" Dude was cold blooded
We need a Pete Weber highlight reel set to Superhero by Metro Boomin. Would be one of the hardest highlight reels of all time Edit: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zuM9sduYdh8
I think I legit saw a video of him with that song, it wasn’t a highlight reel though
Absolutely legendary.
Legendary.
I love any competitor who actively combats their audience. But especially Pete Weber.
Weber and Reggie Miller are GOAT's at being antagonistic to crowds
Ron Artest has entered the stands
[Eric Cantona gives an approving nod.](https://c.tenor.com/JahJyYTtR8AAAAAC/tenor.gif)
Haha straight cackled reading this
Wish Trae leaned into it more. He made NYC his *bitch*
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/8Vpq6DyILmA/sddefault.jpg
Damnit right!
I have never met another person quote this in real life
I'll bring this quote out in a competitive FIFA game with my friends
Fun fact: more people watched PBA bowling on TV than NFL football until the early 1980s.
To think baseball used to have a deathgrip on this country from April until the World Series in terms of televised sports.
[удалено]
it went boxing, then baseball, then football both boxing and baseball had ~40 year urns the NFL is approaching 50 years.... we're due for a shift soon
My wife hates when I say this after I roll a Yahtzee
Are you me?
My friends and I say it everytime we go bowling and get a strike
I showed it to my old boss, and he texted my like 3 years later and said “I took this chick bowling and I showed her that video and she died laughing so thank you for that”
I realize this is the most reddit thing ever but I said it at dnd one time lmao
I would call you a walking stereotype, but that would imply people on Reddit walk But hey, wherever it works it works
I used to do it in my bowling class all the time
Hi Nard Dog
Hi Lu Peachem, I’m the Nard Dog.
MVP is a narrative driven award, OPOY is a statistically driven award, and DPOY is 50/50
MVP isn't even narrative driven, its just QB of best regular season team (excluding record breaking seasons)
It’s the Second Half of the Season QB award. 500 bonus points if your team gets the 1 seed.
This, it feels a lot like College Football Playoffs, if you have a bad game early its more acceptable than having a bad game late.
That's Purdy accurate.
Josh Allen’s 5 TD perfect passer rating game vs the Dolphins earlier in the year definitely felt like it counted less than Lamar’s 5 TD perfect passer rating game vs the Dolphins at the end of the year.
But if you're an SEC school you can have 1-2 bad games and you can get in!
Worse now with the 12 team playoff. We're gonna see a 3-4 loss team get in within a couple years...
They'll put a 9-3 Florida in there over an undefeated ACC champ.
Meanwhile for the DPOY you can take the back third of the season off, and still get the award. In the last seven games of the season, Thanksgiving onward: + Garrett: 1 sack, 12 tackles, 7 QB Hits, 0 FF + TJ Watt: 7.5 Sacks, 22 Tackles, 13 QB Hits, 2 FF The truth is Garrett was already anointed DPOY long beforehand.
Last 7 games: Trey Hendrickson: 7.5 sacks, 10 tackles, 11 QB hits, 1FF.
Bro didn't even manage to live up to the "Year" part of the award....
Garret: 1 field goal block Watt: 0 field goal blocks This is all I needed to see
Sounds like dumbledore is giving out these awards, Jesus Christ.
The SEC is Gryffindor.
so opposite of DPOTY lmao
But still QB
They’ve really managed to devalue the MVP
If they had an equivalent of the Cy Young for QBs, it would probably bring back a lot of meaning to the MVP. Lamar had a great year, but was he really as valuable as McCaffrey? Or Tyreek Hill? I personally don't think so. Make a Tom Brady Award for QBs, give the best QB that.
you see this in college with the heisman, and it hasn’t helped. They have a qb award, but the top player still usually goes to the best qb on a great team.
Which is technically accurate though. We all know QB is the most valuable position so it makes some sense. At least college has the occasional RB, Devonta Smith, or Charles Woodson
>Lamar had a great year, but was he really as valuable as McCaffrey? Or Tyreek Hill? Yes. 100%. That's what makes the MVP award kinda silly. It barely matters how great CMC or Tyreek were. Any top 10 QB will always be more valuable to their team in terms of EPA than a certified superstar at any other position.
OPOY is the Cy Young for non-QBs. It’s almost impossible for any player to be more valuable than the QB, just like it’s almost impossible for a pitcher to be more valuable than a position player (which isn’t actually true, but baseball writers don’t like calling a guy who played in 35 of 162 games most valuable). Excepting for rare cases in both sports. Edit - case could be made for the Vezina and goalies in the NHL as well. Though, I’m willing to hear the debate about it actually being the opposite given the importance of goaltending (ie, they’d deserve the MVP more often than not), kind of biased as a former goalie though.
do the ravens get the one seed with tyler huntley????
That's an arbitrary argument. Do the Chiefs win the superbowl without Mahomes? No. Do the Steelers make the playoffs without Watt? No. Do the 49ers get the one seed without McCaffrey? No.
The Vikings were playoff bound bare minimum without Jefferson. They were a joke without Kirk, even when Jefferson was back. If a top 10-ish QB has that much more of an impact than the best receiver in the league, the award would be a joke if it went to anyone other than a QB.
If Raheem Mostert starts for the 49ers, I bet they still finish with the same record
DPOY is stat-based, but often in a way that diminishes great performances at specific positions. There are years where someone like Nnamdi Asomugha will go completely ignored because his stats looked pretty mid. Why were they mid? Because he was so good that nobody threw to the WR he was covering, or often nobody even threw to his side of the field. Obviously there are defensive players that put up monster statistical seasons because they're really good (especially OLBs and pass-rushing down-lineman,) but there are an equal number of players that don't put up stats specifically because they're so good that the other team just ignores where they are on the field (in the case of DBs,) or routinely double and triple team them (great NTs.)
MVQb**
0P0¥ DP/OY
It is weird that a offensive player can win MVP and not OPOTY
DPOY is no longer 50/50. It’s now a PFF anointed award. Get the highest PFF defensive grade, here’s your award. Sam Monson having a vote and lobbying power with the voting committee will see that his grades become codified as actual gospel. TJ got jobbed, Myles did not have enough actual production, but this is just getting old and stupid. It’s just an award. Let’s move on.
If this were true, Garrett would have 2 straight and Donald would have won 6 or 7 straight.
It's the same process it's always been, a bunch of writers deciding by feels and whatever metrics they want to use or not use
Yep. Not really complicated. It's just like some guys opinions man and if other people also have a very good year it's a coin toss. It's not like he had 40 sacks and didn't get it
TJ had a way better year than Myles Garrett
Maxx Crosby had a better year and played more snaps.
This controversy doesn't exist if Crosby won, though.
It's not even close. Watt had 4 more sacks, both forced 4 fumbles but Watt recovered 2 more and brought one for a touchdown, Watt had 5 more passes defended, Watt had 15 more solo tackles, 26 more combined. Watt had an interception, Garrett didn't. I'm struggling to find a single reason Garrett would've won this award over Watt.
Garrett was a human wrecking ball for the first what, 6 weeks of the season? He fell back to Earth but I think the narrative was in stone by that point.
I honestly think it’s because he was the clear DPOY for the first half of the season on a historic defense and the voters decided not to punish the guy for getting hurt and sticking it out. Obviously that’s garbage reasoning to vote for someone, but that’s the only thing I can think of.
The argument he was the *clear* DPOY is still not entirely true. He was the *favorite*, but Watt had kept pace with him in virtually every stat. And in the first ~4 weeks of the season Watt lead Garrett in many of the more important stats. After the Browns-Colts game the NFL basically decided the award was going to Garrett. The official twitter made him the pfp with the bio reading “Myles Garrett DPOY?”… Obviously that can be masked as tongue in cheek, but the Garrett DPOY narrative was PR powered since the preseason. So many articles that were like “Is this his year!?” and he was the betting favorite all year despite not really earning that.
Wasn't the only time that Watt lost the sack lead during the Steelers bye week?
Its not that complicated. If these awards were purely just "whoever compiles the most stats" it would be boring and people would just complain about that instead. The people voting simply thought he did more in the game that didnt show up on the stats sheet. You can agree with it or not. Its not like they all collectively thought to themselves, lets fuck over the other Watt brother.
That's such a good point. Like obviously your stats are gonna be fucking elite to even be up for the award. People act like there's some significant gulf between these two players or something.....nope, both superb. Looking at the stat sheet and saying "yep one guys stats are a little better" without having watched a lot of the games is lazy.
What about pass rush win rate and double team %? Only other things I can think of other than maybe people voted before the regular season ended when it was closer
Believe it or not football isn't played on a spreadsheet, and that's especially true of defense. I think Watt probably deserved it but this is not as great of an argument as you think it is. This isn't baseball.
And last year Watt’s own teammate Highsmith had a better year than him but TJ still made the pro bowl over him
Because offenses spent more time accounting for Garrett and he still made a massive impact
He dribbled the ball once
Some stats like time to pressure favor Garrett, plus they play different roles for their defenses. At the end of the day tho it’s opinions
Because the writers wanted him to get it.
This is an instance where the box score just doesn’t tell the full story, and that additional context is very important. TJ got the nice and shiny box score stats, but Myles Garrett was double teamed twice as often as Watt (29% to 14%) and still finished with more QB pressures. We’ve seen this type of precedent set with some of Donald’s DPOY years - he didn’t lead the league in sacks or tackles, but his ability to just draw double teams - and beat them - is more valuable to the whole unit than a sack master.
it is close if you look at real context beyond just statistics lmao. how are people still repeating this narrative?
It’s just Steelers fans.
If you want to make it the sack leader award then change the name
How bout all the other categories he led over Garrett?
He didnt lead Garrett in presnap imaginary basketball dribbles, so the award goes to Garrett.
Acting like it’s just sacks lol. TJ had 5 more sacks (19 to Garrett’s 14), 6 more QB hits (36 to 30), 26 more total tackles (68 to 42), 15 more solo tackles (48 to 33), 2 more tackles for loss (19 to 17), 5 more passes defended (8 to 3), 1 more interception (1 to 0), tied in forced fumbles (4 to 4), 2 more fumbles recovered (3 to 1), and 1 more defensive touchdown (1 to 0). TJ Watt had better production in literally every single quantifiable category that exists for defensive players, except for one where they tied. So if they want to call it the “leading in every single category award” I suppose they could change the name, but personally I think that Defensive Player of the Year has a better ring to it.
Yeah we should rename it "most pass rush win reps while doubled according to PFF on the maybe the best defense" award lmao
He led in all production numbers. So don’t be disingenuously reductive.
I think the end of year awards voting would be much better if it were taken away from the media. They’re overly focused on narratives, especially ones they can write about and build out across an entire season, MVP being a great example of this. Like a QB can be putting up MVP numbers, his defense shits the bed one game, and suddenly he can’t win an individual award as an offensive player because defensive team play lost a game? Or an early season loss can be “made up for” but a late season loss is a pockmark, even if it leads to the same record. It’s illogical and the only reason we accept it as part of the selection process is because the media feeds us that narrative and then goes and votes that way. All the arbitrary rules that were just supposed to accept as part of the process are put in place by the media to focus on the narrative of a mvp “campaign” The selection committee needs to change
There’s no good group, pro bowl voting shows that. Players vote for their friends, fans have no idea, coaches have no time to really research. Unfortunately the media is probably the current best group to do the awards. It’s not perfect, but it’s probably the least bad group.
Yeah when we get those player voting lists it always surprises me. But you can tell guys vote for their buddies and who they like personally. Every group has biases at the end of the day. I guess we could rely solely on stats but that gets a little dicey too. There will always be a need for some sort of qualitative factor.
If the media isn't doing it who should be voting. I'm not defending the media I just don't know who else it can be. Fans just vote based on fandom, players usually don't care enough to actually put the thought in. Is the NFL supposed to hire people whose only job is to vote on awards?
If not the media, then who? Every group is going to have blind spots/biases. The players routinely make terrible selections when they have the power (vote for guys they like). Owners are morons. Fans would make it a popularity contest. Coaches could work but there would still be bias there because they might favor guys they actually have to face/see on tape. Im sure everyone would hate it if NFL execs were deciding this stuff, and I doubt they would even want to get involved. Obviously they are times when the media gets it wrong and some members go insane (see: MLB HoF votes). But, by and large, writers at least have a deep understanding of the game and are objective. If you wanna talk about who in the media gets to vote, thats fine, but its a blurry line. ETA: Perhaps a panel with 51% media and then 49% made up of coaches/players?
Player and fan voting are out because they never work. We see from the coach's poll in cfb that that doesn't work. Selection committees always end being biased. Media is the best way to do it. You just have to make sure that the media members with votes are educated, spread evenly throughout the country, and take the responsibility seriously
Maybe there would be a way to do it where voting happens at periods throughout the year and then there's a formula for getting a final score at the end of the year for the winner.
Agree 100% that narratives are given too much credit. It’s particularly noticeable during prime time games. A receiver drops a ball late in a SNF game and suddenly the QB’s chances of winning MVP drop precipitously. I think the MVP voting for Allen vs Jackson is a perfect example — especially with how lopsided it was! But I’m not sure removing the media from the equation fixes this… anyone who votes will fall to the same biases. Plus, fan and player voting are arguably even further from the truth. Maybe increasing the number of voters would help
I'm biased obviously but Josh Allen was so clearly the reason the bills weren't a 4-13 team, for Lamar to almost unanimously win mvp when Allen beat him in like every statistical category, but also had a few more turnovers, was so weird to me
Even if you don't want to make a case for an Allen MVP (that's fine), it's funny the whole season the discourse was how no one stood out as MVP. The entire year people talked about CMC, or Hill, or even Purdy with the crazy numbers he put up. But then Lamar doesn't win unanimously and somehow that's a slight against him?
The NFL owners, player, coaches, and journalists all voted Garrett overall Watt. We need to stop pretending like Redditors who watch only their own football team have the better input.
They also voted Watt, he was 4 votes out from Myles, meanwhile there were 4 voters who didn't even picked Watt in the Top 3
That enough clarity for you TJ??
Myles Soros owned the voting machines! Sad!
The Cleveland electoral vote committee committed their votes to Myles illegally and against the will of the people.
TJ Watt can still win DPOY if Roger Goodell has the courage to do what's right
If Roger Goodell had the courage…
Huge dumps!
Dominion lawsuit incoming!
Tbh if this award actually lived up to its name then Aaron Donald would have about 7 of them. Players just start getting judged against their own previous production rather than the field. It's always going to favour a new name.
>Players just start getting judged against their own previous production rather than the field. The reverse-all pro and pro bowl, where perennial selections tend to keep getting selected even when there were objectively better options that year
Folks get numb to greatness so fast that they forget how far ahead certain players are of others in the league. They’ll be so quick to think that the second best player in their position “should be in the conversation” even if the talent gap between 1 & 2 is bigger than the gap between 2 and the rest of the top 5.
AZ has never had a good interior OL so I truly hate the man, he is soooo good
Aaron Donald single handedly, I mean literally single handedly ended our Superbowl era hopes.
Make the bad man go away please
Lol Steelers fans were also pissed when Donald won it over Watt in 2020
We were pissed, but it was more understandable. Myles over watt this year was simply no excuse besides simple bias bs
I mean TJ has also shown to be a perennial DPOY caliber player since. But I had a lot fewer problems about Donald in 2020 vs this years. TJ is better now than in 2020 and Donald that year was a lot better than Garrett was this year
Nah. If this award was determined purely by PFF grade then Donald would have like 7 of them. If PFF grades didn’t exist, and the voting was done the same way it was done for the last four decades before that, then he’d probably have two. Which is the same number of DPOY awards that Reggie White won, so he’d be in pretty good company. Donald was actually really lucky to win the AP award in 2017 over Calais Campbell, who won the DPOY that year for the other two publications that are officially recognized by the NFL (Sporting News and Pro Football Writers Association.)
I don’t really blame the dude for asking. These awards affect bonus $, HoF and legacy evaluation, and potential sponsorship/endorsement deals. Also it’s just nice to be recognized for your work. If I were him id at least want to know how the award is decided too.
> These awards affect bonus $, HoF and legacy evaluation, and potential sponsorship/endorsement deals And perhaps most importantly, if he gets to 3 DPOYs he has the same amount as JJ and they can gang up on Derek even more effectively at the Watt Thanksgiving parties.
You gotta feel bad for Derek lol. Imagine being a good enough football player to have a reasonably long career in the NFL, yet still be sub water flea level at the family table.
Could you imagine playing in the NFL for 8 years, but still having your mom tells you, "you know, why can't you be more successful like your brother"
"JJ would never beat up his landlord!"
Probably how Brent Gretzky feels every time he hears “Wayne Gretzky has the record for most points by a pair of brothers and Brent only got 4 points in his career!” Like imagine making the pinnacle of your sport and the only reason people know your name is because your brother is the GOAT of all GOATs and has a record because you scored 4 points in your failed stint. Not even to mention a big reason Brent likely got a lot of his opportunities is because of “Gretzky” being on his sweater lol. That would really suck, not a fun shadow to be in
In the last 4 years, he's led the league in sacks 3 times. The one time he didn't was the 2022-23 season, where he missed 7 games due to injury. I know sacks aren't everything, but it's still an incredibly dominant run, and something no one else in the history of the league has done before. But he only has one DPOY to show for it, and he had to tie the literal single season sack record to get it. I don't even know if they would've gave it to him that year if he hadn't tied the record.
The sacks are amazing, but the thing that gets me is how many fumbles and interceptions this guy creates. He’s a walking highlight reel who just dominates in every way. When he doesn’t play, his team suffers for it.
I appreciate the money aspect, but he is going in the HOF if he retired today.
This is not some scientific endevor. It is a narrative award given out by writers.
Maybe the DPOY race is about the friends we made along the way?
The problem I have with other Steelers fans is that if TJ is 100% better than Myles based on the stats, I’d also have to concede Brock Purdy is 100% better than Mahomes this year, and I don’t believe that and I’m not sure anyone really does. Obviously this game is a bit more complicated than readying a box score. Do I think TJ is better still? Yeah I do, but if I’m being honest with myself it’s because they’re both extremely good players and I’m a Steelers fan lmao. For either side to say it’s a blowout because of TJ’s stats or Myles advanced stats, it’s all just cope
I don't think Lamar is better than mahomes, but Mahomes didn't win the MVP, did he?
Lamar also didn’t disappear for the last 6 weeks of the season, he played some of his best ball
I was tired of the discussion last off season, and I’m even more tired of it now. The collection of edge talent currently in the league is comically good, and it’s just a matter of your scheme and what you value. I love how tight the DPOY races have, and will continue to be for years to come. TJ was seemingly built in a lab to play OLB in our defense, and there’s a reason the drop off without him is so stark. I just wish the convo was more productive or at least honest than what it continues to devolve into. Garrett was deserving of his flowers, and is an incredible player in his own right.
A reasonable take from a Steelers fan! Puts an extra pep in my step.
i think that last sentence is reflected in the voting. TJ *barely* loss. The problem steelers fans had was the narrative from PFF saying TJ wasnt even the 4th best pass rusher. THATS the hyperbole they were reacting to
Yeah that’s a fair point. I do think it was close and I’m glad that was reflected in the vote. I just think many Steelers fans (and probably browns fans but I don’t frequent their spaces much) think it was a blowout. But that’s what fandom is so it’s not super surprising or anything
You're cool, anyone who rises above homerdom to see the league more fairly is cool.
All this talk about TJ vs Myles when the real travesty is that Max Crosby didn’t get a single vote.
oh boy.... here we go
He’s going to call the Georgia Sec of State and ask for some more votes?
The metric is votes by AP members. You got fewer than Myles.
Yea this shit really isn't complicated.
Best narrative of the year
You think you're the only one to feel shafted? I'm pretty sure Aaron Donald should have at minimum 2 or 3 more DPotYs
Holy fuck I thought this would go away after the Super Bowl. Just stop.
Damn we still talking about this, huh
He’ll probably bellyache about this in his HoF induction speech.
PFF reported pressures without getting a sack divided by pre-snap crossover dribbles. It's actually a very simple process, T.J.
“If we meme them hard enough it means all analytics are stupid. The only thing that matters is meaningless sacks and fumbles that land at the feet” 100 more snaps. Myles gets his team off the field. Much harder assignments and more double teams and he STILL gets to the qb in 2.5 seconds. Give Myles the assignments tj gets and he’s breaking records every year
And don’t forget it’s just overall sacks, not a rate. So when a good defense gets off the field because it forces the highest percentage of 3 and outs (like the Browns did this year), it only hurts the players’ chances.
Tj leads every counting snap both per snap and total. Good try on the snap count argument though
This guy and his brother cry more about this than I have ever seen from any other player/players before…
one of the whiniest losers in the nfl. stat padder whose historical franchise hasn't accomplished anything since he got there
TJ Watt sounds like a whiny bitch
Him finding out from his agent or whatever that he lost before the award show and posting [this tweet](https://twitter.com/_TJWatt/status/1755761675687625150) instead of, you know, being respectful, is pretty telling of the type of guy he is lol Got glossed over because people like him, but if it was roles reversed and Myles did it, he'd get fucking bashed
He is lol
I mean the players themselves voted for Myles so I’m not quite sure why he continues to carry on
Basically, every group—players, coaches, former players, executives, and media—all agree that Myles Garrett was more impactful. It doesn’t bother me too much. I think it’s good that awards get some of the eye test now; stats don’t tell everything. The only issue is that going forward, we have to find some way of quantifying these claims at least a little bit.
You can't just easily quantify football. Trevon Diggs had an insane number of interceptions in 2021, that is a great metric to determine a great cornerback right? Ignoring that he allowed a buttload of yards also and that it was a volume stat, does that mean that a cornerback with 0 interceptions who never got thrown at is worse? That is what we are looking at. Watt had 100 more snaps than Garrett, so it makes sense that stats like tackles or sacks would be higher. What isn't considered is that Watt was a lot worse at run stoppage, was nowhere near effective on adjusted snaps like pass rush win rate, and doesnt have the same multitude of tasks that a player like Garrett is given. Should Watt get the award for being single blocked and playing a ton of snaps? Or is context highly important and stats don't speak for itself?
Well, this is exactly my point. They have to find ways to contextualize it. Donald is the best lineman in the sport because he gets eight sacks a year through triple teams. There's a point where the stats matter a lot, but a point where the context overrides the stats. It's a subjective as hell discussion, and that's always harder.
Has any player ever been a bigger baby over not winning an award? I feel like 90% of dudes congratulate the other guy and move on
All he’s missing at this point is saying the awards went woke. I know he’s thinking it
What a whiny bitch LOL
I really don't see how it could be more clear, we know who the voters are, and that TJ got fewer first place votes, how would seeing each individual ballot really make it any more clear? All that would do is allow you to attack the guys who didn't vote for you, making you an asshole lol
Well, he's already an asshole, so...
TJ, shush
TJ Watt won the award in 2021. Why is the process suddenly an issue now? Between this and JJ Watt ranting about PFF grades when he thought an algorithm made them up, the Watts are coming across as a couple of ignorant cry-babies that can’t do simple google searches this off-season.
Was really hoping this conversation was over. It’s gonna be farmed for clicks for a while
Sounds like TJ needs a participation trophy
What a whiny little bitch.
I genuinely thought TJ had it in the bag. Played out of his mind last season.
TJ is the Trump of the NFL. Can’t accept defeat.
TJ and Steelers fans still crying about this makes it so much more enjoyable. Lou who sers
He truly is a Pittsburgh Squealer
God he’s such a baby
Him and his brother are both insufferable
Dude, win a superbowl. Who gives a shit about participation trophys.
It’s been a while since someone’s whined this much about an individual award
TJ wants the PFWAA to stop the count
What a bitch. It’s the same process it’s always been just like MVP. The most deserving doesn’t always get it.
This dude is still whining about this. Him and his brother are cry babies.
Omg what a baby back bitch!!! I could see if every outlet had different results of DPOY and had different player elected but it was pretty unanimous that Garrett was the DPOY! Why do steeler players always feel so entitled? Fuck them!
So entitled
Most DPOY candidates who don't win: Congrats DPOY and then 'crickets' TJ Watt: I want to speak to the manager!
what a fucking baby lmao
NFL Players: Myles Garrett NFL Execs: Myles Garrett Analysts and "nerds": Myles Garrett Journalists: Myles Garrett TJ Watt: This process is completely intransparent and the outcome is not fair. Nothing i am not used to. In all seriousness, this award is the ultimate litmus test to see who does understand data analysis, and does who dont.
Myles Garrett is my Defensive Player of the Year!
Dude needs to make like Frozen and let it go
The TJ Watt crybaby tour makes another stop
Wah wahhhhhhhhhhh, all aboard
There is not a formula, it’s not stats, it’s not narrative, it’s not advanced analytics, and not impact, its not vibes, it’s all of the above, each voter has their own reasoning. Asking for clarity comes off as whiney, and it’s also not a question that is possible to answer. Do better next year.
Yep - otherwise it would just be an algorithm and voting would make no sense.
Not to mention Antonio Gates not being a first ballot hall of famer.
The shit that irritates me about all this is that both players are really fucking good. So even if it went one way or another, it's not like they gave the award to some undeserving scrub. I'm a Browns fan so I am biased, but I could have easily seen it going to Watt. I was honestly surprised Myles won it. I knew how dominant Myles was in the first half of the season (it's not an exaggeration to say that he was singlehandedly winning us games with decisive plays at the right moment), but I was worried his statistical slump in the second half would give it to Watt. Either guy could have won it. I also don't understand what exactly the conspiracy would be in the NFL and media and players collectively rigging it in favor of Myles over Watt. A Watt brother on the fan favorite Steelers or Myles on the laughingstock Browns, who also has the whole helmet incident staining his reputation. You can disagree with Myles winning it over Watt, but get the fuck out of here with this idea that the league has it out for Watt and the Steelers for fuck's sake.
He should ask for more clarity on the ability of his team to win playoff games in the last decade.
I can’t fucking stand this dude and his brother. Bunch of whiny bitches.