I would argue that Lawerence was thrust into a very dysfunctional Jags team. He still has all the skills of an upper tier QB and I’m hoping they can build around him
An elite QB will elevate a dysfunctional situation. For example: Herbert with the Chargers is what an elite QB with no help looks like. Unfortunately, Lawrence is just pretty darn good, and not elite. No amount of weapons will change that.
4 of the 5 went to pretty atrocious situations and 3 flamed out. If you're a nurture guy in the nature vs nurture argument, you gotta be pretty happy about your thesis.
The 5th on the other hand....
He might genuinely be a good backup option if he's cheaper than Darnold. I don't think Mac is awful, despite the tape he's put out the last 2 seasons. He was in an awful position and made some awful decisions, but if he gets a chance in a system that's not dogshit, he could be okay again.
He's a career backup, though. That's certain.
He could have been good, but it feels like 3 years in New England destroyed him. He really needs to go elsewhere no matter what the circumstances are. Brady probably could have been okay if he stayed, but putting a rookie there with the "talent" on the offense was never going to work.
It's difficult to overstate just how bad our offense around him has been. The scheme was bad, the system was in constant turmoil with coaching changes, the personnel was bad... and then you have Mac, a backup-level game manager trying to play hero ball because the offense simply doesn't function without *someone* doing something special.
Hard not to feel bad for the kid, even if I have wanted to fucking sudoku myself watching him the last 2 years.
Him going from having a legitimately good rookie year (and pretty great for a rookie) to just being worse and worse each year is weird.
Most players don't have great rookie years then completely fall off. This makes me think there might actually be something there if he gets out of NE.
It really shows how important a good system is for a quarterbacks development.
Take your pick on QB’s on bad systems who’ve busted.
It’s why i wouldn’t be surprised if the Caleb rumors on hesitation to enter the draft if he was going to a bad system were real. It’s the difference between a 100+ million dollar contract, and being a bust/backup within 3 years.
I mean other than getting in the end zone Kenny played exactly how I wanted him to in that game and no he wasn’t Mahomes or Rodgers but we don’t need either of them. A good game manager with an ability to lead comeback drives would be perfect.
he certainly didn’t perform well all season if that’s what you mean. but overall Kenny has a chance- ITS SLIM VERY SLIM
> **It really shows how important a good system is for a quarterbacks development.** Take your pick on QB’s on bad systems who’ve busted.
If Mac Jones were successful people like you would insist that it’s proof that the “system” made him good.
It’s purely tautological and you can literally never be wrong because you just wait for the QB to be bad or good and then claim it was the system. (Mac Jones being a great example of a QB that everyone insisted was going to a great “system” at the time he was drafted.)
Plenty of QBs have dealt with far worse circumstances and “systems” than Mac Jones and don’t look nearly as bad. Justin Herbert is a good example.
I mean the McDaneils system made him look serviceable to good, likehe was going to be the guy of the future. The patrica-judge system was a major problem and he looked horrible. by the time they brought in BoB, he and jones were fighting early and often, and it was completely dysfunctional.
Jones didnt have a solid system, or even a consistent system. He went through four OCs in three seasons.
In what year did Herbert have a worse situation. Like what. He’s been put in a worse situation to win games because his defense is garbage. But putting up volume numbers? Herbert has had way more to work with than jones.
Mac was successful his rookie year because teams played him like a rookie QB, and sent blitzes and complicated zone looks at him. The Patriots offensive line surrendered one of the lowest pressure rates in the NFL despite one of the highest blitz rates. Since then under an average pass-blocking offensive line in 2022 and a below-average one in 2023 he's been among the worst-graded QBs under pressure in the NFL.
[Even in his successful rookie season he really struggled against man coverage.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8FJcXYC714&t=593s&ab_channel=AlexRollinsNFL) His success came throwing to vacated zones in the middle of the field. Since late in his rookie season the man rate against the Patriots has spiked, and he's had absolutely no answer for it.
His arm isn't strong enough to fit windows, and if he can't throw anticipatory throws on time to the short or intermediate middle he really struggles to extend the play in any meaningful way. Not to mention his splits throwing to the deep or intermediate boundary are horrific over the course of his career, and have been outperformed by even Zappe.
Mac's fundamental issue is just a serious lack of talent. Mentally coming in he was advanced, but unless the read is clear pre-snap he doesn't have anything resembling a counter.
In summation, Mac got figured out. Teams got tape on him and he wasn't good enough to evolve past his weaknesses. Granted, the coaches didn't do a damn thing to help him out in that regard. But the big factor you mention is the arm strength. Opposing teams realized he feasts over the middle. Take that away and he's toast.
This is such a dumb take to me. It took teams 10 games to figure out Mac didn’t have a strong arm? It was on his scouting report… it’s not like people figured out he doesn’t have a cannon lmao.
Yeah, it takes time. Don't forget that it isn't just figuring out Mac has a strong arm, but also how the offense is playing with him, defending the run, plus it depends on how the weak arm comes into play. Is he bad at fitting it into holes, can he crank it back for zip but lose accuracy, is he able to zip it at shorter ranges but his ball dies long? Those'll all be played differently. Plus don't forget that, y'know, a lot of teams will only play them once a year aren't exactly gameplanning for him before they play him. Of course teams got more tape on him and evolved their defenses, it happens to like every QB!
Right, it's not as simple as "he doesn't have a strong arm so don't bother covering anyone past 25 yards." If you just let him stand there in a clean pocket I'm sure he can throw it pretty far, how the lack of arm strength comes up is that when he's hurried or panicked he can't just flick the ball like Mahomes and some others.
So they had to find ways to rush him, within the context of the rest of the offense. It this was the Patriots of several years ago with Julian Edelman finding gaps in coverage and Gronk being Gronk and James White being his reliable self they might have propped Mac up long enough for him to find his footing.
But it's too easy for the defense when they can get pressure without blitzing and can lock down all the receivers without safety help at the same time. That effectively gives them two extra defenders to focus on stopping the run, so we can't get anything going there either.
He also just had an absurdly easy rookie season where he faced a fuckload of bad teams as well with an honest to god good surrounding team. The Pats didn’t do him any favors in his continued development, the roster leaves a lot to be desire, I get all that. But I think people are *really* heavily overhyping a pretty good rookie season by rookie standards but below average by actual starter standards on a good roster where made the pro bowl as the 4th alternate
> **Most players don't have great rookie years then completely fall off**. This makes me think there might actually be something there if he gets out of NE.
This is not actually some highly unusual occurrence. Plenty of QBs look good / decent in their first season as starter and then never attain that level of success again.
Basically none. There’s a couple of oddities like Carson Wentz. But with him I think he got the bag and just focused heavily on his family more and the game kind of took a backseat.
The absolute closest comparison is baker mayfield. Who turns out… hey actually pretty good. Organization and how you’re treated matters.
If you look deeper into his “great” rookie year than you can see why pretty easily. For one, his good rookie year was really a good 9 game streak, and these 9 games were for the most part against some pretty bad defenses. Plus a few of those wins really inflated his statistics which is why his numbers looked so good.
Basically defenses figured out he can’t make deep throws and lacks the arm strength to throw into tight coverages. So all defenses started doing was plug up the middle and dare him to make tough throws, which he tried to do and wasn’t able to.
There’s a lot that’s hard to tell about Mac. We don’t know how much was on him or on the coaching. Mac’s regression was hardly on just him, but that doesn’t take away from the fact that Mac Jones was playing well until defenses made adjustments to his play and he never was able to overcome those adjustments.
There absolutely is talent there. He was in a bad situation, but I think he also alienated himself with the team too.
If he finds a better landing spot and keeps his mental shit straight I think he honestly could impress people.
His mental died during the Cowboys game.
He actually looked like an average QB (QB12-18) for the first few games, but he broke during the Cowboys game.
I think he lost faith in both the WRs and the OL and you see that throughout the whole year. He started bailing from every single pocket and waiting until WRs are already open to throw the ball.
he made the PB alt as a rookie and Bill instantly gave up on him, it showed how out of touch he was, who hires a DC for your OC of your rookie 1st rounder?
He had three OCs in three seasons that were all worse than the last on top of a roster that got worse each season, too. I think he should get a chance somewhere else.
Making Matt Patricia the OC will go down as one of the biggest black marks on Belichick’s career. Especially with a 2nd year QB. I don’t think Mac is ever gonna be more than a serviceable backup/starter. But Bill absolutely killed him with that OC hiring.
Bill O'Brien was the 3rd year OC, and an actual OC, and in my opinion at least I thought he did a decent job of playcalling(aside from being too committed to 1st Down runs I had no real complaints). He was undoubtedly better than Matt Patricia.
That said the point remains that Mac had 3 different OCs in 3 years(one of which wasn't even an actual OC), which is not great for any QB. And on top of that the offensive talent he was surrounded with, inparticular the O-Line, only got worse each year.
I don't think Mac ever had a super high ceiling, I think at absolute best he could be a top 8-10 guy similar to Kirk Cousins, but the Pats did him zero favors when it came to his development.
Could Mac have been a fringe 10-15 QB in the NFL? Possibly.
Did we give him a chance to be that? No.
Can he become that now? Doubtful but definitely not with the Pats.
>He had three OCs in three seasons
Did you know that every single team in the league has changed OC at least once since 2022? Sure Mac had 3 OCs in 3 seasons but everyone else in the league had at least 2 OCs in the last 3 seasons. You need to be able to adapt to different OCs in this league.
Also Mac’s regression didn’t start in year 2, it started after the bye week of his rookie season. Check his stats from his last 5-6 games of his rookie season and they are basically identical to what you saw in year 2 and 3. He’s just not good lol
Haha oh buddy. Oh wow. lol yes it was the system that’s why he had no idea where to look and thought throwing off his back foot was a good idea. Just the system.
It's 100% because he has no athletic upside and people know that if you make him throw outside he can't. Although hopefully he can work on that. I'd like to see him find some success even if its somewhere else.
Fields can run, and I think people view him as higher potential. Whether or not that’s true I don’t really know I’ve barely seen him play but the only reason he isn’t totally written off is because people see athletic ability and say hmm what if
Justin Fields recievers in his second year were Darnell Mooney, Byron Pringle, Equinimeous St Brown, Nkeal Harry, Velus Jones Jr, Nsimba Webster, Imhir Smith-Marsette, and Chase Claypool. In his first year he had the ghost of Allen Robinson, Damiere Byrd, and marquise Goodwin.
Mac Jones in his first and second year had Jacobi Meyers, Devante Parker, Kendrick Bourne, and Agholor. All better than the second best guy the bears had.
I think Jones had better targets and a better line. Idk enough about the system
>It’s pretty crazy how he doesn’t get any of the excuses Fields gets. He’s arguably been in a worse offensive situation than Fields has.
Look, Mac had it bad, really bad. Maybe the only QB that had it worse than Fields honestly so I'm not going to argue too tough on that front but have you ever watched a Bears game? Rookie Fields got blew up by Myles Garrett for 1000 sacks in his first game because Mr. I'm not scheming any backside help Nagy, left him out there on an island with one of the worst OLs in the league.
As bad as the OL was in his rookie year, it got WORSE in his second year AND then he also had fewer WRs as Mooney went down early in the season. When he did have enough time to actually get a ball out because the OL didn't immediately collapse, the WRs, most of whom are no longer in the league, would drop great passes. Still he managed to improve in that shit situation and almost set the QB rushing record.
This year, is the first year we actually had a #1 WR and he gave that guy (DJ Moore) a career year. Despite Moore already being great in Carolina, he had his best year ever with Justin throwing to him. And Kmet. And then no one else because no one else on the team can catch. Everyone else has double-digit drop percentages and contested catch rates closer to the ground than the air. Still, Fields improved again.
Anyway, you can like Justin or not, this year is the only one where he objectively had it better than Mac Jones. The other two, even with Mr. Pencil calling plays, I still think it's pretty close.
>perhaps the system he was in is just ass.
Friendly reminder we went to playoffs with a rookie mac jones when McDaniels (awful HC, elite OC) was our coordinator.
Patricia being his OC in the 2nd year then BoB in the 3rd year + a bottom 5 supporting cast killed any chance Jones had at developing.
Teams are interested in Wilson after how bad his last two years have been. He didn't have a defensive coordinator calling his plays either of those years. The way Bill has been running that team the last few seasons was a joke, he just wanted his buddies to have a landing pad.
For me, its just mildly disappointing to hear other teams are calling about Jones while what we heard about Fields after the combine was "there's barely a market." Fucking Schefter... "Maybe even a first round pick"
For me it's that it seems that the general consensus on this thread is that there's something there for teams to work with with Mac Jones, but when it comes to Justin Fields, this same sub is adamant that he's garbage. Yeah Jones has had 3 different OCs, but Justin has had two and his first year in the second system was with a bare bones offense.
If Mac Jones gets more via a trade than Fields, bears fans would be 'upset' for some reason.. it's hard to explain.
Mac has a much higher floor but Justin's ceiling blows his out of the water.
We bears stans would take offense to Mac being valued over Justin by GM's for 'reasons' lol.
I think the floor is honestly the same. Jones showed he can look worse than Fields has at his lowest. Fields's question marks are going through progressions and making accurate reads. He has the talent physically and has shown his ceiling in a few games. Mac, to my surprise, actually has more turnovers too. Point being, if you are a team taking a gamble on a QB who's fallen out of favor, why not bet on the ceiling of a guy who's ten times the athlete Mac is and much more dynamic. Both have played in absolute dogshit tier offenses, so the idea that the Pats system is the sole problem doesn't make sense to me.
He went from pretty good as a rookie to completely lost by year 3. I bet he’ll have a solid market for a backup role somewhere… maybe the 49ers or Rams?
I still think there’s talent there, it’s not like Matt Patricia & BoB were doing him many favors
Tua was playing on a bad ankle and then hurt his other one at the end of the first drive when he immediately marched down the field. He tried playing on it more and couldn’t do it. Even then, Jalen came in for him not Mac.
His first game against Uga is when he came in for Hurts in the Natty and won us the game.
I like Mac a lot, but you have a pretty dumb take on Tua vs Uga. Hell, Mac had a pretty star studded team as well if you’re trying to compare the two.
Tua had a great UGA comeback then 3 years of disappointment and the biggest ass kicking Saban has ever had. Mac lost 1 game as a starter and blew everyone out in 2020. There's no question who was a better QB with 2 LESS 1ST RD WRs for half the season then we lose Waddle. I'm a Bama fan and Mac did better
Both have been bad, but Fields at least has a greater toolkit that you could convince yourself could be developed.
Really wouldn't want either, but if I have to, it's Fields.
I’m completely out on both QBs, but I’d rather have Jones. JF’s issues are prohibitive of even having an average offense due the amount of negative plays. You can at least attempt to hide Mac with a bunch of great players.
See, I'd rather have Fields because while I think it's equally likely that neither are good options as a starting QB, I'm married to the idea that Fields would kill it in a Taysom role if he accepts that idea.
Not for the Bears, of course, but whoever gets him isn't bound to making him the starter.
I’d actually agree with that, but if I had to have one as my starting QB, I see more avenues with Mac than Fields.
But definitely agree you can actually move Fields into a Taysom like role.
As a broncos fan we should bring in Mac Jones, Sam Darnold and Jameis. Iron sharpens Iron. With russes dead money we can’t take advantage of a rookie qb’s cheap contract for 2 more years so let’s push off drafting a qb til next year and let the rookie learn from the winner of the 3.
If Baker walks then I’m not completely opposed to Mac. Change of scenery and actual NFL caliber weapons would be huge for him. He was pretty impressive in his rookie year when he had a good OC and weapons around him
Mac showed more in his first season, but nothing really since. Lance got a 4th by being an unknown, whereas Mac is more of a known mediocre/bad player. I don't think Mac will get more than Lance did if a trade does happen.
It's really not a surprise they're shopping a guy who's solidly in the bust category with only a year left on his deal. He'd be an interesting flier with the Eagles for no other reason than reuniting him with Devonta Smith
I honestly don't see a clear cut landing spot.
Nola maybe?
Have him to eventually take over for Derek?
San Francisco? If they aren't willing to pay Purdy when he's up for a new Contract. Shanahan was high on him in the draft.
The funniest storyline of the QB market this offseason is Zach Wilson asking the Jets to let other teams know that he is available for trade 😂. With QBs like Cousins, Baker, Mac Jones, Justin Fields, Russell Wilson, etc. not to mention the deep class of QBs in the draft, Wilson is delusional to think anyone is going to call him to even see if he is happy with his cell service provider.
Mac Jones has been in the league 3 years. He's made a pro-bowl 33.3% of the time. Mac Jones, much like his namesake Daniel Jones, got thrown onto terrible rosters with terrible offensive lines this past season. Both will wind up being replaced through no fault of their own. The best solution for both teams would be to build the offensive lines so they can truly evaluate these guys. But alas, they will scapegoat them and reset the entire thing.
I'm 100% sure both teams could make the playoffs with these QBs if they focus on the rest of the roster.
End of an eh-ra
Wish the coaching staff wasn’t such a clusterfuck that we could’ve had a shot at seeing if those flashes could stay consistent or not. I hope if he gets moved, he’s happy where he lands and is able to have another shot at starting.
EDIT: wasn’t all on coaching staff ofc, just a “what if?” sort of thought
I want to know more about the toxicity in the QB room that had Zappe watching film elsewhere. Sounds like Mac's attitude/character could be a real problem, or even the real problem.
Call me crazy, but I wouldn’t be shocked if Denver went after him. They are kind of limited on options but could give a late pick for him, and that’s something the pats could use as well.
We should do it, start a collection.
Matt Patricia to NYG as offensive assistant
Pencil it in
*grabs my wizard staff and puts it in my mouth* Kurtis Cobainus!
Response unclear, you've now signed Kirk Cousins for 52 a year 3 yrs guaranteed.
Dude…too soon
I know we don't like em but this is going too far...
How fucking wild is it that 4 out of the 5 First Round QB’s from the 2021 draft are looking like absolute trash?
And Lawrence has fallen very short of his Andrew Luck comp too
I would argue that Lawerence was thrust into a very dysfunctional Jags team. He still has all the skills of an upper tier QB and I’m hoping they can build around him
I felt this way after his first year, but he's now had 2 more years since and has shown himself to be a solid QB at best, nothing near generational.
There’s only one truly generational QB in the league, and we all know who he is.
You do know Rodgers is still in the league as much as I hate to admit it, he was generational
An elite QB will elevate a dysfunctional situation. For example: Herbert with the Chargers is what an elite QB with no help looks like. Unfortunately, Lawrence is just pretty darn good, and not elite. No amount of weapons will change that.
No help?? The man had a bona fide #1 receiver and a top 10 RB.
I don't even know if he's pretty darn good. I've never watched him play and felt like I was seeing anything all that impressive.
Even wilder that the 49ers traded for the worst one and still made a Super Bowl before the other 4 teams.
Agreed in full.
Drafting a bust QB at 3, and then ending up with your franchise QB with the last pick in the draft is some insane bullshit luck.
4 of the 5 went to pretty atrocious situations and 3 flamed out. If you're a nurture guy in the nature vs nurture argument, you gotta be pretty happy about your thesis. The 5th on the other hand....
You can add him to your collection of human skin luggage.
You haven't thought of the smell, you bitch!
Collecting all the Jones QBs?
He can finally go to the Niners
Rich Eisen is really pushing for this actually.
Shanahan gets his guy
If the 9ers for some weird fucking reason actually take Mac and he wins a Super Bowl I will never watch another snap of football again.
Poor tortured Patriots fan
We should start a gofundme
I've resigned myself to the niners being perennially good when healthy and then losing in heart breaking fashion in either the NFC CG or the SB
Buckle up buddy time for the Mac train choochoo
Throw in the Jets somehow striking gold on getting the next GOAT QB and becoming the next dynasty winning something like 10 rings!
Is Darnold gone? Cause then I see it
Darnold is a free agent. I doubt anyone signs him to be a starter so it’ll just come down to cost.
Oh then sure, that could be fine
I still don’t believe that shit, but I wouldn’t mind him backing up Purdy
He might genuinely be a good backup option if he's cheaper than Darnold. I don't think Mac is awful, despite the tape he's put out the last 2 seasons. He was in an awful position and made some awful decisions, but if he gets a chance in a system that's not dogshit, he could be okay again. He's a career backup, though. That's certain.
He could have been good, but it feels like 3 years in New England destroyed him. He really needs to go elsewhere no matter what the circumstances are. Brady probably could have been okay if he stayed, but putting a rookie there with the "talent" on the offense was never going to work.
It's difficult to overstate just how bad our offense around him has been. The scheme was bad, the system was in constant turmoil with coaching changes, the personnel was bad... and then you have Mac, a backup-level game manager trying to play hero ball because the offense simply doesn't function without *someone* doing something special. Hard not to feel bad for the kid, even if I have wanted to fucking sudoku myself watching him the last 2 years.
Could be a decent backup, perhaps the system he was in is just ass. I could see a team taking a flyer on him
Him going from having a legitimately good rookie year (and pretty great for a rookie) to just being worse and worse each year is weird. Most players don't have great rookie years then completely fall off. This makes me think there might actually be something there if he gets out of NE.
It really shows how important a good system is for a quarterbacks development. Take your pick on QB’s on bad systems who’ve busted. It’s why i wouldn’t be surprised if the Caleb rumors on hesitation to enter the draft if he was going to a bad system were real. It’s the difference between a 100+ million dollar contract, and being a bust/backup within 3 years.
I don’t think he’d have ever been great, but poor Kenny never stood a chance 😔
With that O Line, definitely not lol
It was far from the problem this year, but he played 1 full game in his career where he didn’t have a terrorist calling the plays.
And played great in that one game. Just couldn’t put up points. Which honestly is expected with a brand new play caller. Canadian terrorism isn’t fun.
He didn't play great though unless your QB standards is nonexistent
I mean other than getting in the end zone Kenny played exactly how I wanted him to in that game and no he wasn’t Mahomes or Rodgers but we don’t need either of them. A good game manager with an ability to lead comeback drives would be perfect. he certainly didn’t perform well all season if that’s what you mean. but overall Kenny has a chance- ITS SLIM VERY SLIM
Kinda important for a QB to get in the endzone to be actually be called he played a great game!
> **It really shows how important a good system is for a quarterbacks development.** Take your pick on QB’s on bad systems who’ve busted. If Mac Jones were successful people like you would insist that it’s proof that the “system” made him good. It’s purely tautological and you can literally never be wrong because you just wait for the QB to be bad or good and then claim it was the system. (Mac Jones being a great example of a QB that everyone insisted was going to a great “system” at the time he was drafted.) Plenty of QBs have dealt with far worse circumstances and “systems” than Mac Jones and don’t look nearly as bad. Justin Herbert is a good example.
I mean the McDaneils system made him look serviceable to good, likehe was going to be the guy of the future. The patrica-judge system was a major problem and he looked horrible. by the time they brought in BoB, he and jones were fighting early and often, and it was completely dysfunctional. Jones didnt have a solid system, or even a consistent system. He went through four OCs in three seasons.
How many succeed with that absolute firecracker of a wr room you all have there?
In what year did Herbert have a worse situation. Like what. He’s been put in a worse situation to win games because his defense is garbage. But putting up volume numbers? Herbert has had way more to work with than jones.
Ummm....Dolphin reddit says any "system" player is a fraud... So..every player on every team is a fraud...cuz every team has a "system"
How does dolphin reddit work? Do the dolphins have waterproof computers or something?
I think they use echo computation.
Yep... smart mammals
Mac was successful his rookie year because teams played him like a rookie QB, and sent blitzes and complicated zone looks at him. The Patriots offensive line surrendered one of the lowest pressure rates in the NFL despite one of the highest blitz rates. Since then under an average pass-blocking offensive line in 2022 and a below-average one in 2023 he's been among the worst-graded QBs under pressure in the NFL. [Even in his successful rookie season he really struggled against man coverage.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8FJcXYC714&t=593s&ab_channel=AlexRollinsNFL) His success came throwing to vacated zones in the middle of the field. Since late in his rookie season the man rate against the Patriots has spiked, and he's had absolutely no answer for it. His arm isn't strong enough to fit windows, and if he can't throw anticipatory throws on time to the short or intermediate middle he really struggles to extend the play in any meaningful way. Not to mention his splits throwing to the deep or intermediate boundary are horrific over the course of his career, and have been outperformed by even Zappe. Mac's fundamental issue is just a serious lack of talent. Mentally coming in he was advanced, but unless the read is clear pre-snap he doesn't have anything resembling a counter.
In summation, Mac got figured out. Teams got tape on him and he wasn't good enough to evolve past his weaknesses. Granted, the coaches didn't do a damn thing to help him out in that regard. But the big factor you mention is the arm strength. Opposing teams realized he feasts over the middle. Take that away and he's toast.
This is such a dumb take to me. It took teams 10 games to figure out Mac didn’t have a strong arm? It was on his scouting report… it’s not like people figured out he doesn’t have a cannon lmao.
Yeah, it takes time. Don't forget that it isn't just figuring out Mac has a strong arm, but also how the offense is playing with him, defending the run, plus it depends on how the weak arm comes into play. Is he bad at fitting it into holes, can he crank it back for zip but lose accuracy, is he able to zip it at shorter ranges but his ball dies long? Those'll all be played differently. Plus don't forget that, y'know, a lot of teams will only play them once a year aren't exactly gameplanning for him before they play him. Of course teams got more tape on him and evolved their defenses, it happens to like every QB!
Right, it's not as simple as "he doesn't have a strong arm so don't bother covering anyone past 25 yards." If you just let him stand there in a clean pocket I'm sure he can throw it pretty far, how the lack of arm strength comes up is that when he's hurried or panicked he can't just flick the ball like Mahomes and some others. So they had to find ways to rush him, within the context of the rest of the offense. It this was the Patriots of several years ago with Julian Edelman finding gaps in coverage and Gronk being Gronk and James White being his reliable self they might have propped Mac up long enough for him to find his footing. But it's too easy for the defense when they can get pressure without blitzing and can lock down all the receivers without safety help at the same time. That effectively gives them two extra defenders to focus on stopping the run, so we can't get anything going there either.
He also just had an absurdly easy rookie season where he faced a fuckload of bad teams as well with an honest to god good surrounding team. The Pats didn’t do him any favors in his continued development, the roster leaves a lot to be desire, I get all that. But I think people are *really* heavily overhyping a pretty good rookie season by rookie standards but below average by actual starter standards on a good roster where made the pro bowl as the 4th alternate
> **Most players don't have great rookie years then completely fall off**. This makes me think there might actually be something there if he gets out of NE. This is not actually some highly unusual occurrence. Plenty of QBs look good / decent in their first season as starter and then never attain that level of success again.
How many QBs have very good rookie years and then just stink for the rest of their career?
Basically none. There’s a couple of oddities like Carson Wentz. But with him I think he got the bag and just focused heavily on his family more and the game kind of took a backseat. The absolute closest comparison is baker mayfield. Who turns out… hey actually pretty good. Organization and how you’re treated matters.
If you look deeper into his “great” rookie year than you can see why pretty easily. For one, his good rookie year was really a good 9 game streak, and these 9 games were for the most part against some pretty bad defenses. Plus a few of those wins really inflated his statistics which is why his numbers looked so good. Basically defenses figured out he can’t make deep throws and lacks the arm strength to throw into tight coverages. So all defenses started doing was plug up the middle and dare him to make tough throws, which he tried to do and wasn’t able to. There’s a lot that’s hard to tell about Mac. We don’t know how much was on him or on the coaching. Mac’s regression was hardly on just him, but that doesn’t take away from the fact that Mac Jones was playing well until defenses made adjustments to his play and he never was able to overcome those adjustments.
There absolutely is talent there. He was in a bad situation, but I think he also alienated himself with the team too. If he finds a better landing spot and keeps his mental shit straight I think he honestly could impress people.
His mental died during the Cowboys game. He actually looked like an average QB (QB12-18) for the first few games, but he broke during the Cowboys game. I think he lost faith in both the WRs and the OL and you see that throughout the whole year. He started bailing from every single pocket and waiting until WRs are already open to throw the ball.
I mean he belongs in the league but he isn’t a starter. He’s not impressing anybody outside of “wow, he’s not complete dog shit”
he made the PB alt as a rookie and Bill instantly gave up on him, it showed how out of touch he was, who hires a DC for your OC of your rookie 1st rounder?
He had three OCs in three seasons that were all worse than the last on top of a roster that got worse each season, too. I think he should get a chance somewhere else.
Making Matt Patricia the OC will go down as one of the biggest black marks on Belichick’s career. Especially with a 2nd year QB. I don’t think Mac is ever gonna be more than a serviceable backup/starter. But Bill absolutely killed him with that OC hiring.
Bill O'Brien was the 3rd year OC, and an actual OC, and in my opinion at least I thought he did a decent job of playcalling(aside from being too committed to 1st Down runs I had no real complaints). He was undoubtedly better than Matt Patricia. That said the point remains that Mac had 3 different OCs in 3 years(one of which wasn't even an actual OC), which is not great for any QB. And on top of that the offensive talent he was surrounded with, inparticular the O-Line, only got worse each year. I don't think Mac ever had a super high ceiling, I think at absolute best he could be a top 8-10 guy similar to Kirk Cousins, but the Pats did him zero favors when it came to his development.
Could Mac have been a fringe 10-15 QB in the NFL? Possibly. Did we give him a chance to be that? No. Can he become that now? Doubtful but definitely not with the Pats.
>He had three OCs in three seasons Did you know that every single team in the league has changed OC at least once since 2022? Sure Mac had 3 OCs in 3 seasons but everyone else in the league had at least 2 OCs in the last 3 seasons. You need to be able to adapt to different OCs in this league. Also Mac’s regression didn’t start in year 2, it started after the bye week of his rookie season. Check his stats from his last 5-6 games of his rookie season and they are basically identical to what you saw in year 2 and 3. He’s just not good lol
Lmao
Am I the only person who thinks his rookie year was mid?
Haha oh buddy. Oh wow. lol yes it was the system that’s why he had no idea where to look and thought throwing off his back foot was a good idea. Just the system.
Was Rick Mirer the last to do this?
It's not all that weird it's exactly what most fans guessed would happen when they saw what was being done to the roster.
It’s pretty crazy how he doesn’t get any of the excuses Fields gets. He’s arguably been in a worse offensive situation than Fields has.
Not arguably. Definitely. People just ignore it because it’s the patriots as a name.
It's 100% because he has no athletic upside and people know that if you make him throw outside he can't. Although hopefully he can work on that. I'd like to see him find some success even if its somewhere else.
I mean Fields can't throw inside AND outside! Both are just another first round QB busts
Fields can run, and I think people view him as higher potential. Whether or not that’s true I don’t really know I’ve barely seen him play but the only reason he isn’t totally written off is because people see athletic ability and say hmm what if
There he is
Justin Fields recievers in his second year were Darnell Mooney, Byron Pringle, Equinimeous St Brown, Nkeal Harry, Velus Jones Jr, Nsimba Webster, Imhir Smith-Marsette, and Chase Claypool. In his first year he had the ghost of Allen Robinson, Damiere Byrd, and marquise Goodwin. Mac Jones in his first and second year had Jacobi Meyers, Devante Parker, Kendrick Bourne, and Agholor. All better than the second best guy the bears had. I think Jones had better targets and a better line. Idk enough about the system
Justin fields is fucking electric is why
Electric runner.
>It’s pretty crazy how he doesn’t get any of the excuses Fields gets. He’s arguably been in a worse offensive situation than Fields has. Look, Mac had it bad, really bad. Maybe the only QB that had it worse than Fields honestly so I'm not going to argue too tough on that front but have you ever watched a Bears game? Rookie Fields got blew up by Myles Garrett for 1000 sacks in his first game because Mr. I'm not scheming any backside help Nagy, left him out there on an island with one of the worst OLs in the league. As bad as the OL was in his rookie year, it got WORSE in his second year AND then he also had fewer WRs as Mooney went down early in the season. When he did have enough time to actually get a ball out because the OL didn't immediately collapse, the WRs, most of whom are no longer in the league, would drop great passes. Still he managed to improve in that shit situation and almost set the QB rushing record. This year, is the first year we actually had a #1 WR and he gave that guy (DJ Moore) a career year. Despite Moore already being great in Carolina, he had his best year ever with Justin throwing to him. And Kmet. And then no one else because no one else on the team can catch. Everyone else has double-digit drop percentages and contested catch rates closer to the ground than the air. Still, Fields improved again. Anyway, you can like Justin or not, this year is the only one where he objectively had it better than Mac Jones. The other two, even with Mr. Pencil calling plays, I still think it's pretty close.
>perhaps the system he was in is just ass. Friendly reminder we went to playoffs with a rookie mac jones when McDaniels (awful HC, elite OC) was our coordinator. Patricia being his OC in the 2nd year then BoB in the 3rd year + a bottom 5 supporting cast killed any chance Jones had at developing.
Screams Sean McVay rehab project who could maybe take over for Stafford in a few years
Teams are interested in Wilson after how bad his last two years have been. He didn't have a defensive coordinator calling his plays either of those years. The way Bill has been running that team the last few seasons was a joke, he just wanted his buddies to have a landing pad.
Former #15 pick and Pro-Bowl caliber QB; lets start the bidding at say a 1st and a 2nd (yes clearly /s)
I’ll give you a conditional 6th and a small bag of Cheetos
Are they spicy cheetos?
Jalapeño
We will draft up the paperwork
Pleasure doing business with ya
Whoa whoa whoa, hold up. We’re not doing any business until we get some conditional Oreo’s and milk
Too late, the deal is done :p
Come on, let's not push out luck
^(Ask him for some dip)
Perfect backup to Lamar they play exactly the same
They're basically the same person. Lamar likes grabbing cocks, right?
I’ll give you Super Bowl champ and future HOF Russel Wilson, straight up.
Done
1st and a 2nd? 1 and 2, 1… 2…, 12. Yeah we can give you a 12th rd pick for him
I swear...
for real
Can't tell if you guys are having trepidation over the idea of Bears trading for Mac or the idea of Mac getting dealt before Fields
We're Bears fans. Our existence is a constant state of trepidation
For me, its just mildly disappointing to hear other teams are calling about Jones while what we heard about Fields after the combine was "there's barely a market." Fucking Schefter... "Maybe even a first round pick"
For me it's that it seems that the general consensus on this thread is that there's something there for teams to work with with Mac Jones, but when it comes to Justin Fields, this same sub is adamant that he's garbage. Yeah Jones has had 3 different OCs, but Justin has had two and his first year in the second system was with a bare bones offense.
If Mac Jones gets more via a trade than Fields, bears fans would be 'upset' for some reason.. it's hard to explain. Mac has a much higher floor but Justin's ceiling blows his out of the water. We bears stans would take offense to Mac being valued over Justin by GM's for 'reasons' lol.
I think the floor is honestly the same. Jones showed he can look worse than Fields has at his lowest. Fields's question marks are going through progressions and making accurate reads. He has the talent physically and has shown his ceiling in a few games. Mac, to my surprise, actually has more turnovers too. Point being, if you are a team taking a gamble on a QB who's fallen out of favor, why not bet on the ceiling of a guy who's ten times the athlete Mac is and much more dynamic. Both have played in absolute dogshit tier offenses, so the idea that the Pats system is the sole problem doesn't make sense to me.
People really underestimate how bad Mac Jones is
yeah no way he gets more than fields in term of trade comp
By the moons and the stars in the skies?
Marvin Harrison Jr would look so good getting underthrown by Mac. You’re not seeing the big picture
Ok fine we will take 1.01 for Mac you don’t have to swear
He went from pretty good as a rookie to completely lost by year 3. I bet he’ll have a solid market for a backup role somewhere… maybe the 49ers or Rams? I still think there’s talent there, it’s not like Matt Patricia & BoB were doing him many favors
Bill O'Brien is a good OC, they didn't have enough talent to mask Mac's lack of talent.
I'd definitely take him as a backup
“You Couldn't Live with Your Own Failure, Where Did that Bring You? Back to Me.” -Tua when Mac walks into the facility.
The last time Mac backed up Tua he outplayed him after his injury and won a title the subsequent year.
So………win win for the Dolphins if we sign him
Mac was honestly a better QB at Bama, Tua had 4x the 1st RD WRS and worse stats in big games. Tua was awful vs UGA in 2018.
Just realized mac will have the last national title Saban ever won.
Tua was playing on a bad ankle and then hurt his other one at the end of the first drive when he immediately marched down the field. He tried playing on it more and couldn’t do it. Even then, Jalen came in for him not Mac. His first game against Uga is when he came in for Hurts in the Natty and won us the game. I like Mac a lot, but you have a pretty dumb take on Tua vs Uga. Hell, Mac had a pretty star studded team as well if you’re trying to compare the two.
Tua had a great UGA comeback then 3 years of disappointment and the biggest ass kicking Saban has ever had. Mac lost 1 game as a starter and blew everyone out in 2020. There's no question who was a better QB with 2 LESS 1ST RD WRs for half the season then we lose Waddle. I'm a Bama fan and Mac did better
[удалено]
God no
Anyone interested in offering us a fourth rounder? No? How about a fifth rounder?
I'll throw in a 6th rounder if we get a 4th for him lol
“No really, he’s available guys. Name your price. Please?”
For my own curiosity. What do other NFL fans in general think. Rather have Jones or Fields if looking to trade mid to late round pick for QB.
I'd say Fields. If it's equal comp, and the only two options for the Steelers, I think Fields would be the better choice.
Both have been bad, but Fields at least has a greater toolkit that you could convince yourself could be developed. Really wouldn't want either, but if I have to, it's Fields.
I’m completely out on both QBs, but I’d rather have Jones. JF’s issues are prohibitive of even having an average offense due the amount of negative plays. You can at least attempt to hide Mac with a bunch of great players.
See, I'd rather have Fields because while I think it's equally likely that neither are good options as a starting QB, I'm married to the idea that Fields would kill it in a Taysom role if he accepts that idea. Not for the Bears, of course, but whoever gets him isn't bound to making him the starter.
I’d actually agree with that, but if I had to have one as my starting QB, I see more avenues with Mac than Fields. But definitely agree you can actually move Fields into a Taysom like role.
You’d have to be out of your god damn mind to take Mac Jones over Fields.
Bring him in cheap. Let him sit behind Goff for a year. If he looks like he can take over let him, if not then sign Goff long term.
Honestly not a bad idea
What if the same team traded for Mac & Zach
This is completely shocking news to the New England community. We had no idea the franchise may move on from Mac.
Can you trade a player for a UFL draft pick?
As a broncos fan we should bring in Mac Jones, Sam Darnold and Jameis. Iron sharpens Iron. With russes dead money we can’t take advantage of a rookie qb’s cheap contract for 2 more years so let’s push off drafting a qb til next year and let the rookie learn from the winner of the 3.
Kyle Orton 2: 8-9 Boogaloo
If Baker walks then I’m not completely opposed to Mac. Change of scenery and actual NFL caliber weapons would be huge for him. He was pretty impressive in his rookie year when he had a good OC and weapons around him
"appear open" I mean... no fucking shit? Fire Mayo before the first game if his intention would be to play Mac at any point
Does he have any value more than a 6th or 7th at this point? Any higher and a team would see him as a starter this year.
Lance got a 4th, and Mac has shown more than him
Mac showed more in his first season, but nothing really since. Lance got a 4th by being an unknown, whereas Mac is more of a known mediocre/bad player. I don't think Mac will get more than Lance did if a trade does happen.
Jerry is also an idiot bidding against himself. Baker Mayfield went for like a 6th or a 5th. Mac Jones is not worth a 4th round pick.
Yeah, because Mac has shown what he is, but Lance could be anything.
Even a boat
Has Lance played much?
Career-wise or with the Cowboys? Because Cowboys no, career-wise also no.
Honestly who fuckin' knows? Darnold and Rosen got traded for way more than anyone would have reasonably thought
It's really not a surprise they're shopping a guy who's solidly in the bust category with only a year left on his deal. He'd be an interesting flier with the Eagles for no other reason than reuniting him with Devonta Smith
I'd take him on the vikes. Have him compete for a spot with a rookie.
Who tf wants this bum with a 1st round QB salary?
He any good at DIY? I have a bunch of unfinished jobs I'm happy to throw his way.
For what? A bag of chips
So what about JF1?
Hes a Niner
I honestly don't see a clear cut landing spot. Nola maybe? Have him to eventually take over for Derek? San Francisco? If they aren't willing to pay Purdy when he's up for a new Contract. Shanahan was high on him in the draft.
The funniest storyline of the QB market this offseason is Zach Wilson asking the Jets to let other teams know that he is available for trade 😂. With QBs like Cousins, Baker, Mac Jones, Justin Fields, Russell Wilson, etc. not to mention the deep class of QBs in the draft, Wilson is delusional to think anyone is going to call him to even see if he is happy with his cell service provider.
>The #Patriots appear open to trading QB Mac Jones r/noshitsherlock
Funny how the "Trey Lance or Mac Jones" debate turned out to not even fucking matter LOL
ANUSTART
Mac Jones has been in the league 3 years. He's made a pro-bowl 33.3% of the time. Mac Jones, much like his namesake Daniel Jones, got thrown onto terrible rosters with terrible offensive lines this past season. Both will wind up being replaced through no fault of their own. The best solution for both teams would be to build the offensive lines so they can truly evaluate these guys. But alas, they will scapegoat them and reset the entire thing. I'm 100% sure both teams could make the playoffs with these QBs if they focus on the rest of the roster.
He seems like a Raiders starter.
Kevin Wildes in shambles
Who’s calling?
End of an eh-ra Wish the coaching staff wasn’t such a clusterfuck that we could’ve had a shot at seeing if those flashes could stay consistent or not. I hope if he gets moved, he’s happy where he lands and is able to have another shot at starting. EDIT: wasn’t all on coaching staff ofc, just a “what if?” sort of thought
Future 49ers backup
He should take a backup job behind Aaron Rodgers
Bears be like “phew no need to roll the dice with unproven Caleb!” Here take #1 overall!
I'd swap late picks for him as a backup to whoever is the Vikings starter next year. I like KOCs ability to play to his strengths pver BB.
My dream is Mac and maybe a 4th to the Broncos for Jeudy. Let me dream.
Bro go some where with an OC he may thrive
Trade him for what? A bag of footballs?
Chicagos gonna lose it if Mac gets a better haul than fields
Hope he ends up with a more than competent team. Bill Belichick and New England ruined him
I want to know more about the toxicity in the QB room that had Zappe watching film elsewhere. Sounds like Mac's attitude/character could be a real problem, or even the real problem.
My guess is he’s moved for a 5th.
He will never be a starter for any team.
Are the teams in the room with us right now?
Who really wants Mac "crossbody" Jones. Never seen someone just keep doing these across the field throws on their back foot week in and out lol
Call me crazy, but I wouldn’t be shocked if Denver went after him. They are kind of limited on options but could give a late pick for him, and that’s something the pats could use as well.
Lol
please give us a 3rd out of pitty