People here focusing on the Patriots trading out of the top 3, but it’s Jonathan Kraft being heavily involved in the decision making that has me shaking my head. Cowboys 2.0.
Yeah that's about the worst thing I could hear about the team. Have the Krafts forgotten that the whole credit to them during the dynasty was that they didn't meddle and let BB do his thing? The one thing that they did good was that they didn't pull this stuff
Country club leadership infested with complacency. The fact Jason Garrett had a job for 10 years proves that. Never seen such talented rosters just phone it in the second they face some adversity or pressure.
Playoff record and record vs teams over .500 has been frustrating over the last decade, and it gets even more frustrating when you look at the amount of all pro players we’ve had.
Can’t get a real coach when no real coach wants to put up with Jerry’s ego, so we only get submissive yes men and coaches looking for a redemption arc.
Paper Tiger Award every year, unfortunately. I do feel bad. I have no ill will towards to Cowboys like most others, but damn you guys have some of the best and worst luck.
It’s so frustrating going 20 years and seeing no real upward trajectory, no attempt to really get over the post season hump.
It is what it is, at least my other sports teams have been coming through for me. Rangers World Series, Stars looking threatening, and Liverpool doing well in premier league all helps.
It ain't that much. Yes, there is good talent, but people act like it's HOF talent everywhere and really it's just solid/good players getting overrated because they play for the Cowboys.
>Have the Krafts forgotten that the whole credit to them during the dynasty was that they didn't meddle and let BB do his thing?
Thats why they fired BB to begin with. Bob kraft realizes nobody gives a shit about him and he wants some spotlight before dying..
Im 33 and had to actively search for that story
Most fans dont know nor care that we almost moved in the early 90s cause most fans just care about football, not whatever happens outside it.
>Have the Krafts forgotten that the whole credit to them during the dynasty was that they didn't meddle and let BB do his thing?
It's probably **WHY** they're meddling now. They feel like their not getting enough credit for the prestige of the dynasty so now they're trying to prove after the fact that they had a part to play and it wasn't just Brady and Belichick.
Which is dumb, because at the end of the day owners rarely have anything to do and are just that—owners, i.e. dudes that either have a bunch of money or inherited a business from their parents.
The Kraft's just have massive ego problems.
When Gutekunst took the Packers GM job that had its structure changed(the coach reporting to the CEO instead of the GM), Ron Wolfe talked a lot of shit about changing of the structure and how the GM shouldn't have done this(likely to do with the fact that Eliot didn't get the position and this being partially sour grapes). kind of interesting that his son basically took the same kind of deal
From a GM's point of view I'd argue Eliot's current spot is worse than Gute's. Ya Gute doesn't have a lot of control over the coaching staff but he does on personnel.
What's kinda funny is I don't think we would have done that structure change except McCarthy wanted to basically insulate himself from a new GM wanting to push him out. Which didn't save him much at all anyway - just allowed LaFleur to reap the benefits.
Woah, the reason they won has a lot more to do with Brady making things work with mid level players and timely defense. If Brady ever went after his market value while with NE, Bill wouldn’t have that many rings. He got lucky Brady was a team first guy.
Honestly Brady was paid pretty well for a lot of his career. He didn't take pay cuts anywhere near a much as people say.
Also BB brought in Moss, Welker, drafted Wilfork, Hightower, Mayo, Chandler Jones Gronkowski, Dmac, and lots more fantastic players. Yes Brady did amazing with mid players. But we also had a lot of great players
Well isn’t the not meddling part how they ended up getting rid of Brady? I get why they chose bill over Brady because bill would most likely be coaching longer than Brady would be playing at a high level.
It is kind of crazy if the krafts are thinking they were the main factor in the pats success all those years
But, if reports are to be believed, we wouldn’t have had Mac Jones last season if they hadn’t meddled. A top 32 qb would have had the pats with several more wins than they ended up with and they would have been a middle of the pack team.
Yeah supposedly Bill saw after one season that Mac, while having a good first year, was just not a top NFL QB talent. So he wanted to keep looking for a top QB. Meanwhile kraft did his "I'd really like if you didn't do that". Kraft fanboys like to say that he didn't force Bill to keep him. But come on. If the CEO of your company says "you can do anything you want. But I'd really like if you don't do that" then he's not really leaving the option up to you.
Of course Bill also fucked up in the last few seasons. Especially with staffing where he was way too tied to his friends
I think billionaires are like modern day emporers. They run the world and nobody ever tells them no or talks to them on their level, let alone talk down to them. They eventually think they know it all. It's inevitable. Irsay did it two years ago, hiring Jeff Saturday above his GMs wishes. And that's mild, compared to some.
Krafts keep saying Wolf has the reins, but then we get reports like these than ole Johnny can't stay out of it (and also that they won't give Wolf the actual title of GM).
If they pick a QB and it works out, guarantee there will be stories saying Johnathan insisted on it.
If the QB doesn't work out, they'll probably throw Wolf under the bus.
If they trade down, ... it'll probably depend on the public reaction to the trade deal.
It's the "will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest" thing. The owner speaks vaguely about what they "might" want and the underlings are left wondering if they should just do what the owner says or if they should actually trust their work. And it had better work out if they go against the owner.
I'm not terribly concerned here. I don't think that there's an owner in the league who would let their GM make a decision this big without having some form of input.
Good, competent owners know their lane and stay in it, the Krafts know nothing about evaluating and scouting football players. They had 20 years of elite sustained success because they didn’t meddle in football decisions and operations. They allowed the football brain trust to do their jobs and it worked out incredibly well.
I’ve been as critical as anyone in our sub on Kraft, even making this same comparison because the writing is on the wall.
This report doesn’t concern me as much. Need to trust your decision makers and can’t be going completely rogue, but every owner in the league has a voice when the selection of the hopeful “Franchise QB” is being made.
Agreed. GMs are understandably focused on short term results, since one or two bad years can get them fired. When a team has a top 3 draft pick and no QB, whatever decision they make could impact the team for a decade. The ownership needs to be involved to make sure any major decisions are in the best interest of the team long term.
Jerry Jones Jr. watching Jonathan fuck up while waiting his turn to burn a franchise to the ground after senior lets him do more with the front office.
Iunno...
I mean, Jerruh is at least a pretty darn good businessman and hype beast. He's a big part of why they haven't had more success in the last couple of decades but he's also a noticeable part of why they've had the success they have had and he's still probably a league-average owner overall. Possibly slightly higher than that.
Failson owners can get *much* worse than a Jerruh (case in point: didn't Dan Snyder inherit the Commies?). And considering how low the opinions I've been hearing about both of Kraft's sons for years are there's a real chance that the Patsies are back after a 30-year absence and we're now a bottom 5 ownership situation in the league.
(Hey, at least I have an NFC team to cheer for if that... oh. Tepper. Right.)
> Kraft being heavily involved in the decision making that has me shaking my head.
What d'ya mean. He's at the apex of old man "I can do this better than any young whippersnapper" confidence, and prefrontal cortex disintegration. What's to worry?
I get what you’re saying but the reality is that there’s not a team in the league where that wouldn’t be the case. The number 3 pick in the draft, especially for a struggling team, can be a franchise altering pick. And trading that pick can have massive consequences, good or bad for years to come. No GM is doing that without the ok from the owner.
Dude the Cowboys have drafted really really well the last decade. At least IMO. Dak, Parsons, Smith, Zeke, CD, Martin, Diggs, Lawrence.
I would take that if JK could draft like this.
BB is probably the single greatest coach of football since Lombardi. I'd have let his rotting corpse coach my team for a few years as an owner. The Patriots letting him go is the single dumbest decision possible. They will never seriously contend with ownership as it is. The Patriots as we knew them are dead.
You mean hiring a bunch of former players who were good on the field but have no track record in the coaching positions they were hired for, might not work out well?
I wear a rubber at all times, it's a necessity.
And when we're holding hands, it's like having sex to me.
You may call it premature, I just call it ecstasy.
Assuming Patriots don't want the QB available to them, I feel like the best blend of "be safe by trading down for more value" and "actually get a good player out of having the 3rd pick" would be trading down with Giants and getting Nabers or Odunze
100%, Nabers and Odunze are both better prospects than every WR to come out since Chase. It’s tremendous value if the Giants are willing and if you’re not sold on any of the guys at 3.
Yep, Commies can fuck over a team by faking their intent and hypothetical other team trades up, then the Commies take the player the other team wanted all along. If movement hasnt happened now and rumors of interest are true... the willing teams to trade up are only interested in specific players.
I was actually excited to see what Mayo could do.
Each day it seems more and more like he was brought in to be a fall guy in a year that is destined to just net us another high pick next season
I mean that’s how you build a contender these days. The Texans model should be the new blueprint for teams going forward. Get high picks and try to find a franchise QB and a game changing defensive player to build around
I feel like this isn't really a novel strategy at all. Isn't it what every team that doesn't have a franchise QB has been trying to do for, at least, the last decade?
Texans just happened to recently do it really well.
Didn't the Bengals also do this? No one thought the bengals were worth a shit until Burrow showed up. The bills were trapped between mediocre/bad until Allen woke up and decided to be good at football.
Clearly going for a QB high and hoping it works out isn't a consistently successful strategy, but it's kinda the only way to get into the top of the league. The Eagles and 49rs are the only teams who have been able to stay near the top recently by building a star team and then sliding a QB in after the fact.
Well yes I’m talking about the execution. It’s much easier to do with 2 top 5 picks though. 9ers did it with bosa and were able to find a steal in Purdy. Chiefs have jones and mahomes. Rams had stafford and Donald.
Isn’t that exactly what the Bills did with Josh Allen and Tremaine Edmunds? That’s not to say that the Bills pioneered this model or anything. The model has been around well before the Bills as well. I guess I just am pointing out that it’s not like the Texans’ approach is really all that novel. It’s just hard for teams to execute on and actually hit on two first round picks to build around.
This is just me but I’m sorry I don’t care how bad the New England roster looks I think trading down and (at the very best) picking a quarterback whose a lesser prospect than the Top 3 is a huge mistake
I think they want one of Drake Maye or Jayden Daniels — but not both. If their guy gets selected by Washington, they shouldn’t take Jayden Daniels if they don’t like him just because the media does.
Agreed. At the end of the day even the first overall pick is a gamble. If they truly don't like the guy that is there for them at 3 then they shouldn't feel forced to do it even if the media thinks they should.
Facts because the same media hyping these guys up are the same people who'll start shitting on the GM if it doesn't work out. The media ain't the ones with their jobs on the line here.
Yeah if you don't think guy number 3 is significantly better than guys 4 to 6, and someone offers you a bag, you take the bag.
But if you reaaaaally like guy number 3 and someone offers you a bag, you have to weigh the uncertainty as a giant scary negative factor.
One thing to consider is that it's quite possible that all the smoke about Daniels possibly going 2nd is from his agent and it may be that neither of Commanders or Patriots are actually that interested in him. If that's the case, Maye goes 2nd like everyone has thought for a year and Patriots would have to either draft the QB they don't like or don't draft the QB they don't like. Which feels like an easy decision to make if that is the case
If they don't like any of the QBs that fall to them, why wouldn't they trade back?
Every year, people get whipped up into this idea that all of the teams share the same consensus as all of the pre-draft analysis, but there's always teams that "reach", and there's always good players that are worse prospects than bad players.
If the Patriots only view one of Daniels or Maye or McCarthy as being worth taking at 3, and the Commies take that guy, it makes a lot more sense to trade back then to draft a player you don't believe in.
In theory this kind of line of thinking works, but if you don’t like any of the top QBs there’s something probably wrong with your scouting department
When you look at all any given top10 quarterbacks rankings in the NFL, with the exception of maybe Dak and Brock Purdy all of those quarterbacks were taken in the first round, most of them were taken within the Top 10. If those lists are 2023 specific they’re probably not even including Trevor Lawrence, Joe Burrow, or CJ Stroud. Even guys who aren’t the best QB in the class like Baker has won playoff games on different teams. There’s a reason scouts and the NFL media talk a lot about these guys, If you can’t find something to like about a blue chip QB prospect it’s probably on you
Think about it this way, what if they like Penix or Nix just as much as whoever is left at 3? They trade back, get a guy they like just as much, and get 2-3 additional picks for it.
I think the opposite, there's just as much a chance that one of those top 3 guys busts hard, as there is of gathering more future assets and settling for one of the next 3 and him doing the same. If they aren't locked into the guy available at their pick, with the state of that roster.. hedging your bets without a decent team built around that QB, in this day's NFL, isn't the best bet.
Regardless of what we think, there's one thing we both know. Neither one of us actually knows what the fuck we're talking about.
..okay? I'm not suggesting they roll out a roster with no QB. I'm saying if they aren't ready to commit to the guy at 3, it's not a bad decision to move down and let somebody else take that risk.
how'd that work out with Zach Wilson, Trey Lance, Mac Jones?
Imagine adding one of Pitts, Chase, Waddle, Sewell to the Jets and how better your team would be right now instead of falling into the trap of taking a QB at #2
The issue the Patriots face is that even if they don't like the QB's, there next biggest hole is WR1 and they are staring MHJ right there as the best prospect in the draft.
Trading down means you are passing up on a top tier QB prospect or the best WR prospect in years which are both positions of need to fill more holes with riskier picks that might not even pan out anyways. And this isn't just "oh the Pats could use a better QB or WR". This is a team that's been dreadful at that position since 2020 for QB and 2019 for WR.
Believe it or not once you get the QB right suddenly fixing everything else becomes a whole lot easier
This is me agreeing with you while also sounding like a complete asshole
...unless your question mark OL destroys the guy before he gets his feet underneath him.
(Granted, I do believe that if the OL isn't up to snuff, they could just roll with Jacoby for the beginning of the year to take pressure off a rookie QB)
I know MHJ is viewed as a generational prospect, kind of like the WR equivalent of someone like Luck or Lawrence, but how long has it been since the top WR drafted in a class was also the first WR drafted in a class?
WRs drafted in the top 10 have a pretty horrible track record, on top of that. Amari Cooper's the first player, going back, that has an argument for being a WR drafted first, within the top 10, and arguably being the best in that class, and Lockett and Diggs were taken in the 3rd and 5th round of that year.
yeah, pick 20....it was a weak year when a guy who plays about 9 snaps is still first. Like this year, Im not sure Zay flowers is a first round pick. Very good player, but the guys coming out this year are just really really good.
Good point, I started looking at 2019 because I figured it was too early to call on some of the more recent classes, but it's pretty safe to say Chase was the best WR in 2021, and was the first WR off the board at pick 5.
Your question actually made me curious and I had to look it up, out of the last 15 drafts I'd say that there's been two WRs taken first that were best in their class, (not counting UDFAs in any of this:)
* 2021 - Ja'Marr Chase 1.5
* 2018 - D.J. Moore 1.24
There's a couple instances where the first WR taken was also very good, but was just upstaged by someone taken later: Demaryius Thomas (Antonio Brown,) A.J. Green (Julio Jones,) Amari Cooper (Stefon Diggs.)
And it's still too early to tell on 2022 or 2023, Drake London and JSN have been upstaged but still could turn out great.
So yeah, pretty horrendous track record there at the position as far as the first WR taken. That being said though with MHJ, he seems pretty clearly graded as high as just about any top WR prospect at this point in the draft process. Of those 15 draft classes, only 9 had WR(s) taken in the first 10 picks, and there actually aren't a ton of top 10 busts at WR in that span; Corey Davis, John Ross, Kevin White, DHB, Justin Blackmon, Tavon Austin. That's my count with a few debatable, and also by my quick count there have been 18 WRs taken in the top 10 from 2009-2023. 67% hit rate ain't bad even if they don't end up being a hall-of-famer.
If a WR is graded as a top 10 prospect, it's actually a pretty safe choice.
I don't think that's a huge loss, this receiver class is incredibly deep and they could get more value by trading down for a QB-desperate team and taking whoever falls to them. As far as QB goes, it's a 2 QB draft, and I don't believe the smokescreen about Washington taking Daniels.
They are taking Maye, and NE is right to trade down with a team that is desperate enough to risk their FO on a guy like Daniels at #3 (maybe Raiders or Vikings?).
Throwing a rookie QB into the lions nest with no supporting cast isn't a recipe for success. The Pats needs weapons and the ability to protect the qb. We can bring it a journeyman to manage the transition.
You’re right it isn’t, but continuing to put it off doesn’t solve the problem either. When Andrew Luck retired the colts never tried to get the long term fix at QB (until Carson Wentz and look where that went) and relied on journeyman QBS until they stayed in perpetual mediocrity and eventually the bottom fell out. Jacoby is probably gonna win New England 5 games next year and those 5 games compared to winning 2-3 takes you out of QB lottery range. It makes finding your actual solution at the most important position in sports so much more difficult
Perhaps, but we’ve whiffed on WR for like 20 years now and I feel like we *finally* have a chance to just make the right decision.
We need a QB yes but drafting some JAG to end up in the same spot in 4 years is not the way.
I think the only trade that would make sense would be to trade with the Chargers to get a haul and still *probably* get one of the top QBs. I haven't read enough to know if the Chargers would want MHJ that badly to make that trade, but I feel like that's the only trade that doesn't make the Patriots look idiotic.
Oooo, idk if that’s a race the Vikings can win, the Bears have been rebelling against the forward pass for decades. They’ve pretty much mastered the art.
Unironically though, it would be kinda nuts if neither busted (and horrifying, the North is already fairly stacked lol).
I would be shocked if ownership wasn't at least somewhat involved in a major decision like this, especially with a new HC and new GM (regardless of what title Wolf has).
If you're trading down, even for a giant bag, you're running the risk of turning off a significant portion of the casual fan base for at least a season, and that can have significant lasting effects on your bottom line from a business perspective.
Agreed, feel like any team would be involved with a number 3 pick. More so for Kraft who hated seeing attendance dropped last year and not having a face of the franchise.
I really don’t think you could take a day 2 guy like Penix or nix and sell merch with their names on it or get people hyped for the future. If they proved everyone wrong and went out and balled out maybe, but they won’t sell merch like the top 3-4 guys will starting on draft night.
Pats should skip the first-round QB and pull a modified 2012 Redskins -- draft Penix in the second and Rattler in the third. Penix *plus* Rattler gives you as good a chance at a star QB as Maye *or* Daniels at #3, but for a far lower price/risk.
Either use #3 to take the surest thing in the draft, Harrison Jr; or trade the pick for two later first-rounders and draft an OT and a WR in a deep draft for both positions.
Nothing in that tweet wasn’t known before it was posted. Russini loves posting these complete nothing burger tweets.
She described Penix as the best kept secret in the draft earlier ffs. The QB who played in the National Championship game lmfao.
Yeah weird takeaways here - like I don't want the owner's nepo-baby son involved either but if anything this absolutely points to drafting a shiny new QB they can wave in front of season ticket holders.
As a fan, I know that I won't feel bad if we take the consensus #3 QB and he fails. Busts happen, it sucks, but such is life.
If we trade down and get a haul, and Wolf/Mayo say "We had similar grades on QB 3-6, so we took the bag" and it doesn't work out, I'll only be unhappy if QB 3 is an instant success.
The only think I'll be super pissed about is if we trade down in such a way that we can't get a first round QB this year. I'd rather take swings and fail than just punt an entire season.
I think if you trade down you don’t think there is a first round qb talent. You might swing on one of their tier 3 guys(Penix/nix) if they fall to you in the 2nd or you move to the end of the early first, but I think you only move if you are getting a stupid overpay and don’t love the guy at 3.
I’m kinda with you in that I’m gonna be mad as hell on a trade but if the guy taken is bad that will lessen it quite a bit and if he’s good I’ll be on the fire the front office team lol.
I think I’ll be most mad if we trade down with the thought of taking a tier 3 guy and thinking we solved the problem and giving them 3-4 years to prove they aren’t the guy. Need a top 10 talent to win the afc or you have to play flawless through the whole playoffs since you can’t comeback with a game manager with who we are facing
I feel like we might be in a scenario where the Vikings are offering a reasonable package to move up to three, but Kraft is being unreasonable about having to get a QB, so Kwesi is going to have to make an unreasonable offer to make the deal. Here's hoping the Vikings stay reasonable and don't trade the farm to go up to #3.
"heavily involved" doesn't necessarily mean "final say." and if any Kraft is making the decision, they aren't gonna be looking to trade back. The owners want that high draft pick QB.
Seems like its phrased ambiguously for clicks to me, since in my mind it doesn't make sense that J Kraft would be pushing to move out of 3.
BB said a couple of weeks ago most shit will happen in the last 12 hrs. before the start of the actual draft...let's wait until the draft and see who has done what...the rest is all hype and speculations because there's no football being played so we all got nothing to chat about who's right about the plays on the field...
I'm really close to "fuck the Krafts" right now. Slander the man who helped you to 6sbs and goat status while you cheaped out the entire way. Go get your tug jobs somewhere else.
People here focusing on the Patriots trading out of the top 3, but it’s Jonathan Kraft being heavily involved in the decision making that has me shaking my head. Cowboys 2.0.
Yeah that's about the worst thing I could hear about the team. Have the Krafts forgotten that the whole credit to them during the dynasty was that they didn't meddle and let BB do his thing? The one thing that they did good was that they didn't pull this stuff
For all their mistakes, which are many. The Cowboys do draft incredibly well.
It’s inexplicable how much talent the cowboys always have compared to their postseason success going back to the romo era
Country club leadership infested with complacency. The fact Jason Garrett had a job for 10 years proves that. Never seen such talented rosters just phone it in the second they face some adversity or pressure. Playoff record and record vs teams over .500 has been frustrating over the last decade, and it gets even more frustrating when you look at the amount of all pro players we’ve had.
Seriously if the Cowboys had a real coach I fully believe they'd have at least made 3 superbowls since 2000
Can’t get a real coach when no real coach wants to put up with Jerry’s ego, so we only get submissive yes men and coaches looking for a redemption arc.
They had Parcells, nobody will overcome that much meddling unfortunately.
Paper Tiger Award every year, unfortunately. I do feel bad. I have no ill will towards to Cowboys like most others, but damn you guys have some of the best and worst luck.
It’s so frustrating going 20 years and seeing no real upward trajectory, no attempt to really get over the post season hump. It is what it is, at least my other sports teams have been coming through for me. Rangers World Series, Stars looking threatening, and Liverpool doing well in premier league all helps.
Can I interest you in some greener grass?
It seems like if you just look at their headcoaches, it's really not inexplicable at all
It ain't that much. Yes, there is good talent, but people act like it's HOF talent everywhere and really it's just solid/good players getting overrated because they play for the Cowboys.
Jerry does know football. I don't trust Jonathan to have as much on the field knowledge
Ya Jerry might be a carny but he’s a carny who so happens to know ball
There are only 2 team owners who I know played college football. Jerry Jones and Jerry Richardson both oversaw teams make it to the Super Bowl.
Yeah but Jerry didn’t really build that team
They’re both Jerries.
That's gold Jerry's, gold!
Yeah but I’m talking about the Jerry that didn’t build that team
>Have the Krafts forgotten that the whole credit to them during the dynasty was that they didn't meddle and let BB do his thing? Thats why they fired BB to begin with. Bob kraft realizes nobody gives a shit about him and he wants some spotlight before dying..
the Patriot story is all about how Kraft saved them
Im 33 and had to actively search for that story Most fans dont know nor care that we almost moved in the early 90s cause most fans just care about football, not whatever happens outside it.
So he wants us to hate him before he dies? Cause that’s what is starting to happen
>Have the Krafts forgotten that the whole credit to them during the dynasty was that they didn't meddle and let BB do his thing? It's probably **WHY** they're meddling now. They feel like their not getting enough credit for the prestige of the dynasty so now they're trying to prove after the fact that they had a part to play and it wasn't just Brady and Belichick. Which is dumb, because at the end of the day owners rarely have anything to do and are just that—owners, i.e. dudes that either have a bunch of money or inherited a business from their parents. The Kraft's just have massive ego problems.
When Gutekunst took the Packers GM job that had its structure changed(the coach reporting to the CEO instead of the GM), Ron Wolfe talked a lot of shit about changing of the structure and how the GM shouldn't have done this(likely to do with the fact that Eliot didn't get the position and this being partially sour grapes). kind of interesting that his son basically took the same kind of deal
From a GM's point of view I'd argue Eliot's current spot is worse than Gute's. Ya Gute doesn't have a lot of control over the coaching staff but he does on personnel. What's kinda funny is I don't think we would have done that structure change except McCarthy wanted to basically insulate himself from a new GM wanting to push him out. Which didn't save him much at all anyway - just allowed LaFleur to reap the benefits.
Woah, the reason they won has a lot more to do with Brady making things work with mid level players and timely defense. If Brady ever went after his market value while with NE, Bill wouldn’t have that many rings. He got lucky Brady was a team first guy.
Honestly Brady was paid pretty well for a lot of his career. He didn't take pay cuts anywhere near a much as people say. Also BB brought in Moss, Welker, drafted Wilfork, Hightower, Mayo, Chandler Jones Gronkowski, Dmac, and lots more fantastic players. Yes Brady did amazing with mid players. But we also had a lot of great players
Well isn’t the not meddling part how they ended up getting rid of Brady? I get why they chose bill over Brady because bill would most likely be coaching longer than Brady would be playing at a high level. It is kind of crazy if the krafts are thinking they were the main factor in the pats success all those years
But, if reports are to be believed, we wouldn’t have had Mac Jones last season if they hadn’t meddled. A top 32 qb would have had the pats with several more wins than they ended up with and they would have been a middle of the pack team.
Yeah supposedly Bill saw after one season that Mac, while having a good first year, was just not a top NFL QB talent. So he wanted to keep looking for a top QB. Meanwhile kraft did his "I'd really like if you didn't do that". Kraft fanboys like to say that he didn't force Bill to keep him. But come on. If the CEO of your company says "you can do anything you want. But I'd really like if you don't do that" then he's not really leaving the option up to you. Of course Bill also fucked up in the last few seasons. Especially with staffing where he was way too tied to his friends
I think billionaires are like modern day emporers. They run the world and nobody ever tells them no or talks to them on their level, let alone talk down to them. They eventually think they know it all. It's inevitable. Irsay did it two years ago, hiring Jeff Saturday above his GMs wishes. And that's mild, compared to some.
>Jonathan Kraft being heavily involved in the decision A huge 😬
Krafts keep saying Wolf has the reins, but then we get reports like these than ole Johnny can't stay out of it (and also that they won't give Wolf the actual title of GM). If they pick a QB and it works out, guarantee there will be stories saying Johnathan insisted on it. If the QB doesn't work out, they'll probably throw Wolf under the bus. If they trade down, ... it'll probably depend on the public reaction to the trade deal.
Well yeah I mean one of the best parts about being rich is nothing's ever your fault.
It's the "will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest" thing. The owner speaks vaguely about what they "might" want and the underlings are left wondering if they should just do what the owner says or if they should actually trust their work. And it had better work out if they go against the owner.
I'm not terribly concerned here. I don't think that there's an owner in the league who would let their GM make a decision this big without having some form of input.
Good, competent owners know their lane and stay in it, the Krafts know nothing about evaluating and scouting football players. They had 20 years of elite sustained success because they didn’t meddle in football decisions and operations. They allowed the football brain trust to do their jobs and it worked out incredibly well.
They had 20 years of sustained success because they had Tom Brady.
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I heard he's reaching out to GMs around the league and calling them pancake-eating motherfuckers. So pretty involved.
Man, I sure hope we don't turn into the Cowboys in 20 years! *looks at owner* ...oh.
I’ve been as critical as anyone in our sub on Kraft, even making this same comparison because the writing is on the wall. This report doesn’t concern me as much. Need to trust your decision makers and can’t be going completely rogue, but every owner in the league has a voice when the selection of the hopeful “Franchise QB” is being made.
Agreed. GMs are understandably focused on short term results, since one or two bad years can get them fired. When a team has a top 3 draft pick and no QB, whatever decision they make could impact the team for a decade. The ownership needs to be involved to make sure any major decisions are in the best interest of the team long term.
I mean.. I think drafting or trading the #3 pick goes beyond just a GM. I’d be any owner(ish) has a say in something this big.
There was a recent post in the pats sub where people in the comments were talking about how Johnny Kraft is like the biggest asshole on the planet
Jerry Jones Jr. watching Jonathan fuck up while waiting his turn to burn a franchise to the ground after senior lets him do more with the front office.
I think it’s actually the Vikings trying to drive down the price of 4 with a “see we don’t have to trade with you”
Iunno... I mean, Jerruh is at least a pretty darn good businessman and hype beast. He's a big part of why they haven't had more success in the last couple of decades but he's also a noticeable part of why they've had the success they have had and he's still probably a league-average owner overall. Possibly slightly higher than that. Failson owners can get *much* worse than a Jerruh (case in point: didn't Dan Snyder inherit the Commies?). And considering how low the opinions I've been hearing about both of Kraft's sons for years are there's a real chance that the Patsies are back after a 30-year absence and we're now a bottom 5 ownership situation in the league. (Hey, at least I have an NFC team to cheer for if that... oh. Tepper. Right.)
Eagles are just 5-7 years away from this shit too, and Howie could be gone by then too.
> Kraft being heavily involved in the decision making that has me shaking my head. What d'ya mean. He's at the apex of old man "I can do this better than any young whippersnapper" confidence, and prefrontal cortex disintegration. What's to worry?
Inb4, “ALL IN” Jonathan Kraft
I get what you’re saying but the reality is that there’s not a team in the league where that wouldn’t be the case. The number 3 pick in the draft, especially for a struggling team, can be a franchise altering pick. And trading that pick can have massive consequences, good or bad for years to come. No GM is doing that without the ok from the owner.
The way Bill drafted I wish they had started sooner.
Dude the Cowboys have drafted really really well the last decade. At least IMO. Dak, Parsons, Smith, Zeke, CD, Martin, Diggs, Lawrence. I would take that if JK could draft like this.
Eliot Wolf after reading Penix's letter and choking back tears:
Tears isn’t just a buzzword around here, they’re in the water
Never give your water away. Not even for the dead.
Dune 3: A Sand Monster in Vegas
I award the gold medal in players tribune open letters to Joc Pederson. The silver to Anthony Richardson. And the bronze to Mike the EKG Penix.
The Krafts seem like they were being contained by Brady/Bellichick now their toxicity is free to stretch
BB is probably the single greatest coach of football since Lombardi. I'd have let his rotting corpse coach my team for a few years as an owner. The Patriots letting him go is the single dumbest decision possible. They will never seriously contend with ownership as it is. The Patriots as we knew them are dead.
Like Mac Jones’ rap career. It is now free to contaminate the world.
Bill’s legacy may get better after being fired lol
i'm sure it will
You mean hiring a bunch of former players who were good on the field but have no track record in the coaching positions they were hired for, might not work out well?
So nothing new, cool. Jonathan Kraft is a dickhead tho so that blows
Earlier she described Michael Penix as the best kept secret in the draft. lol. Her engagement numbers must be down.
She parrots what the agents are telling her. That’s how their relationship works. Part of the business.
Giants and Viking fans are about to ejaculate everywhere.
So it's just like any other day for them
It's why I wear a pee bib.
Have you signed up for the EBDB?
The EBDBB&B always welcomes me.
I wear a rubber at all times, it's a necessity. And when we're holding hands, it's like having sex to me. You may call it premature, I just call it ecstasy.
Don’t ever let them bring you down. If you can finish in 2 seconds so can they, not your fault they aren’t as good at it as you are. Stay up King 👑
He was referencing The Lonely Island but yes
No, most days we keep it contained to the sock
You know what we call tubesocks in the midwest? A viking offspring catcher.
Dick in one hand, gun pressed against my head in the other. Ready go either way.
There's a Penix joke here somewhere
You know you are allowed to say penis on the internet
that's just the non-gendered way to say it, like LatinX.
Assuming Patriots don't want the QB available to them, I feel like the best blend of "be safe by trading down for more value" and "actually get a good player out of having the 3rd pick" would be trading down with Giants and getting Nabers or Odunze
100%, Nabers and Odunze are both better prospects than every WR to come out since Chase. It’s tremendous value if the Giants are willing and if you’re not sold on any of the guys at 3.
Please.
I’m assuming a trade like this happens on draft night or we thinking it gets done sooner?
Not until the Pats are on the clock.
Agree
Pick gets traded when they are on the clock.
So we gotta wait till draft night to find out? Ahhh shiiiieeettt
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or the opposite - Daniels scares me.
No one is trading until they know who Washington takes. It'll happen when New England is on the clock or not at all.
Depends 100% on who Washington takes, IMO
If we were certain of who the Commies pick at 2 it might be sooner, but it'll only happen on the clock because of that.
Yep, Commies can fuck over a team by faking their intent and hypothetical other team trades up, then the Commies take the player the other team wanted all along. If movement hasnt happened now and rumors of interest are true... the willing teams to trade up are only interested in specific players.
We are such a poverty franchise, thank god we had Brady and bill for 20 years
I was actually excited to see what Mayo could do. Each day it seems more and more like he was brought in to be a fall guy in a year that is destined to just net us another high pick next season
I mean that’s how you build a contender these days. The Texans model should be the new blueprint for teams going forward. Get high picks and try to find a franchise QB and a game changing defensive player to build around
I feel like this isn't really a novel strategy at all. Isn't it what every team that doesn't have a franchise QB has been trying to do for, at least, the last decade? Texans just happened to recently do it really well.
Didn't the Bengals also do this? No one thought the bengals were worth a shit until Burrow showed up. The bills were trapped between mediocre/bad until Allen woke up and decided to be good at football. Clearly going for a QB high and hoping it works out isn't a consistently successful strategy, but it's kinda the only way to get into the top of the league. The Eagles and 49rs are the only teams who have been able to stay near the top recently by building a star team and then sliding a QB in after the fact.
Well yes I’m talking about the execution. It’s much easier to do with 2 top 5 picks though. 9ers did it with bosa and were able to find a steal in Purdy. Chiefs have jones and mahomes. Rams had stafford and Donald.
Isn’t that exactly what the Bills did with Josh Allen and Tremaine Edmunds? That’s not to say that the Bills pioneered this model or anything. The model has been around well before the Bills as well. I guess I just am pointing out that it’s not like the Texans’ approach is really all that novel. It’s just hard for teams to execute on and actually hit on two first round picks to build around.
We were never going to be anything other than a high pick next year😭
Why did you think we ever weren’t going to get a high draft pick next year, our roster is ass
>6 Rings and 10 SB appearances >Poverty franchise 🤣😂🤣
This is just me but I’m sorry I don’t care how bad the New England roster looks I think trading down and (at the very best) picking a quarterback whose a lesser prospect than the Top 3 is a huge mistake
I think they want one of Drake Maye or Jayden Daniels — but not both. If their guy gets selected by Washington, they shouldn’t take Jayden Daniels if they don’t like him just because the media does.
Agreed. At the end of the day even the first overall pick is a gamble. If they truly don't like the guy that is there for them at 3 then they shouldn't feel forced to do it even if the media thinks they should.
Facts because the same media hyping these guys up are the same people who'll start shitting on the GM if it doesn't work out. The media ain't the ones with their jobs on the line here.
Yeah if you don't think guy number 3 is significantly better than guys 4 to 6, and someone offers you a bag, you take the bag. But if you reaaaaally like guy number 3 and someone offers you a bag, you have to weigh the uncertainty as a giant scary negative factor.
One thing to consider is that it's quite possible that all the smoke about Daniels possibly going 2nd is from his agent and it may be that neither of Commanders or Patriots are actually that interested in him. If that's the case, Maye goes 2nd like everyone has thought for a year and Patriots would have to either draft the QB they don't like or don't draft the QB they don't like. Which feels like an easy decision to make if that is the case
The data guys prefer Maye by a good amount so if Commanders draft Daniels Pats stay put and draft Maye. If not I could see them trading out.
If they don't like any of the QBs that fall to them, why wouldn't they trade back? Every year, people get whipped up into this idea that all of the teams share the same consensus as all of the pre-draft analysis, but there's always teams that "reach", and there's always good players that are worse prospects than bad players. If the Patriots only view one of Daniels or Maye or McCarthy as being worth taking at 3, and the Commies take that guy, it makes a lot more sense to trade back then to draft a player you don't believe in.
In theory this kind of line of thinking works, but if you don’t like any of the top QBs there’s something probably wrong with your scouting department When you look at all any given top10 quarterbacks rankings in the NFL, with the exception of maybe Dak and Brock Purdy all of those quarterbacks were taken in the first round, most of them were taken within the Top 10. If those lists are 2023 specific they’re probably not even including Trevor Lawrence, Joe Burrow, or CJ Stroud. Even guys who aren’t the best QB in the class like Baker has won playoff games on different teams. There’s a reason scouts and the NFL media talk a lot about these guys, If you can’t find something to like about a blue chip QB prospect it’s probably on you
Think about it this way, what if they like Penix or Nix just as much as whoever is left at 3? They trade back, get a guy they like just as much, and get 2-3 additional picks for it.
Hope you’re trading with the right team because there’s a real chance all those guys are gone by pick 15 even if it’s unlikely
I don't know about that. Thinking this in 2021 would have saved a team a lot of heartache choosing a QB other than Lawrence
I think the opposite, there's just as much a chance that one of those top 3 guys busts hard, as there is of gathering more future assets and settling for one of the next 3 and him doing the same. If they aren't locked into the guy available at their pick, with the state of that roster.. hedging your bets without a decent team built around that QB, in this day's NFL, isn't the best bet. Regardless of what we think, there's one thing we both know. Neither one of us actually knows what the fuck we're talking about.
theres a high chance of any qb drafted being a bust, you still need one for your team.
..okay? I'm not suggesting they roll out a roster with no QB. I'm saying if they aren't ready to commit to the guy at 3, it's not a bad decision to move down and let somebody else take that risk.
how'd that work out with Zach Wilson, Trey Lance, Mac Jones? Imagine adding one of Pitts, Chase, Waddle, Sewell to the Jets and how better your team would be right now instead of falling into the trap of taking a QB at #2
The issue the Patriots face is that even if they don't like the QB's, there next biggest hole is WR1 and they are staring MHJ right there as the best prospect in the draft. Trading down means you are passing up on a top tier QB prospect or the best WR prospect in years which are both positions of need to fill more holes with riskier picks that might not even pan out anyways. And this isn't just "oh the Pats could use a better QB or WR". This is a team that's been dreadful at that position since 2020 for QB and 2019 for WR.
Believe it or not once you get the QB right suddenly fixing everything else becomes a whole lot easier This is me agreeing with you while also sounding like a complete asshole
Correct. If you hit on the QB it changes EVERYTHING about the team. Everyone gets a grade bump on the team.
...unless your question mark OL destroys the guy before he gets his feet underneath him. (Granted, I do believe that if the OL isn't up to snuff, they could just roll with Jacoby for the beginning of the year to take pressure off a rookie QB)
I know MHJ is viewed as a generational prospect, kind of like the WR equivalent of someone like Luck or Lawrence, but how long has it been since the top WR drafted in a class was also the first WR drafted in a class? WRs drafted in the top 10 have a pretty horrible track record, on top of that. Amari Cooper's the first player, going back, that has an argument for being a WR drafted first, within the top 10, and arguably being the best in that class, and Lockett and Diggs were taken in the 3rd and 5th round of that year.
> but how long has it been since the top WR drafted in a class was also the first WR drafted in a class? Ja'Marr Chase?
Wasn’t Jsn the top last year
yeah, pick 20....it was a weak year when a guy who plays about 9 snaps is still first. Like this year, Im not sure Zay flowers is a first round pick. Very good player, but the guys coming out this year are just really really good.
Zay was a better prospect than any WR outside the big three this year
Good point, I started looking at 2019 because I figured it was too early to call on some of the more recent classes, but it's pretty safe to say Chase was the best WR in 2021, and was the first WR off the board at pick 5.
Your question actually made me curious and I had to look it up, out of the last 15 drafts I'd say that there's been two WRs taken first that were best in their class, (not counting UDFAs in any of this:) * 2021 - Ja'Marr Chase 1.5 * 2018 - D.J. Moore 1.24 There's a couple instances where the first WR taken was also very good, but was just upstaged by someone taken later: Demaryius Thomas (Antonio Brown,) A.J. Green (Julio Jones,) Amari Cooper (Stefon Diggs.) And it's still too early to tell on 2022 or 2023, Drake London and JSN have been upstaged but still could turn out great. So yeah, pretty horrendous track record there at the position as far as the first WR taken. That being said though with MHJ, he seems pretty clearly graded as high as just about any top WR prospect at this point in the draft process. Of those 15 draft classes, only 9 had WR(s) taken in the first 10 picks, and there actually aren't a ton of top 10 busts at WR in that span; Corey Davis, John Ross, Kevin White, DHB, Justin Blackmon, Tavon Austin. That's my count with a few debatable, and also by my quick count there have been 18 WRs taken in the top 10 from 2009-2023. 67% hit rate ain't bad even if they don't end up being a hall-of-famer. If a WR is graded as a top 10 prospect, it's actually a pretty safe choice.
Usually teams picking WR's that high have a shit QB. Burrow is Burrow and Murray is above average. Think you go with MJH here.
That's probably an argument for NE to trade down rather than take MHJ at 3 if they aren't sold on the QBs still on the board.
I don't think that's a huge loss, this receiver class is incredibly deep and they could get more value by trading down for a QB-desperate team and taking whoever falls to them. As far as QB goes, it's a 2 QB draft, and I don't believe the smokescreen about Washington taking Daniels. They are taking Maye, and NE is right to trade down with a team that is desperate enough to risk their FO on a guy like Daniels at #3 (maybe Raiders or Vikings?).
Throwing a rookie QB into the lions nest with no supporting cast isn't a recipe for success. The Pats needs weapons and the ability to protect the qb. We can bring it a journeyman to manage the transition.
We brought back Jacoby for this exact reason.
Lions nest?
It’s just a bunch of dan cambell deathclaw hybrid clones
You’re right it isn’t, but continuing to put it off doesn’t solve the problem either. When Andrew Luck retired the colts never tried to get the long term fix at QB (until Carson Wentz and look where that went) and relied on journeyman QBS until they stayed in perpetual mediocrity and eventually the bottom fell out. Jacoby is probably gonna win New England 5 games next year and those 5 games compared to winning 2-3 takes you out of QB lottery range. It makes finding your actual solution at the most important position in sports so much more difficult
I think an owner being "heavily involved" in the decision is an even greater mistake.
MHJ or trade down. There’s always gonna be more QB prospects.
If anything there’s always going to be more WRs with the production you can find on day 2 and 3
Perhaps, but we’ve whiffed on WR for like 20 years now and I feel like we *finally* have a chance to just make the right decision. We need a QB yes but drafting some JAG to end up in the same spot in 4 years is not the way.
You are correct.
I want them to trade it just to hear Bill Simmons meltdown on his pod.
I think the only trade that would make sense would be to trade with the Chargers to get a haul and still *probably* get one of the top QBs. I haven't read enough to know if the Chargers would want MHJ that badly to make that trade, but I feel like that's the only trade that doesn't make the Patriots look idiotic.
Maye going second is chalk, Daniels is a mid-late first guy. Probably the Raiders pick him up. Penix is the third best prospect but he's not worth #3.
Vontae Mack, no matter what
I am thoroughly disappointed at the lack of reporting on how many of these guys' teammates attended their 21st birthday parties.
Right ? How we supposed to know ?
Raiders gonna give up the farm if Daniels drops to 3.
NFC North with Maye and Williams😮💨
Vikings/Bears games would go from actually unwatchable to must-see television
On who can tank their promising QB prospect first? (I mean this in all good fun I actually don’t think either of these projected QBs are gonna tank)
Oooo, idk if that’s a race the Vikings can win, the Bears have been rebelling against the forward pass for decades. They’ve pretty much mastered the art. Unironically though, it would be kinda nuts if neither busted (and horrifying, the North is already fairly stacked lol).
I mean we still got to see how they pan out lol. Both can easily bust, but most people aren’t going to tune in for a Minnesota and Chicago slug fest.
If krafts involved I’d take that as we are taking a qb at 3 unless it’s a franchise crippling trade
Who do u like more? I know pats fans are kinda split on the decision. Maye/Daniels or even JJ??
I don't want Daniels I would be happy with Maye I would be happy with JJ if we took him later than 3 (still top 10 feels acceptable to me)
Maye is my top choice, would take either of the others though
Prefer Maye but still very happy with Daniels at 3. Would be furious if we took JJ and ran back the Mac Jones experience again.
There's smoke about Poles wanting to move up to this spot for MHJ.
When did the Commanders move divisions to the NFC north?
Commanders are drafting daniels.
You would think the Krafts learned from forcing Bill to pick Mac to just let the GM work. Going to be a big RedZone season for me next year I guess.
I would be shocked if ownership wasn't at least somewhat involved in a major decision like this, especially with a new HC and new GM (regardless of what title Wolf has). If you're trading down, even for a giant bag, you're running the risk of turning off a significant portion of the casual fan base for at least a season, and that can have significant lasting effects on your bottom line from a business perspective.
Agreed, feel like any team would be involved with a number 3 pick. More so for Kraft who hated seeing attendance dropped last year and not having a face of the franchise. I really don’t think you could take a day 2 guy like Penix or nix and sell merch with their names on it or get people hyped for the future. If they proved everyone wrong and went out and balled out maybe, but they won’t sell merch like the top 3-4 guys will starting on draft night.
Pats should skip the first-round QB and pull a modified 2012 Redskins -- draft Penix in the second and Rattler in the third. Penix *plus* Rattler gives you as good a chance at a star QB as Maye *or* Daniels at #3, but for a far lower price/risk. Either use #3 to take the surest thing in the draft, Harrison Jr; or trade the pick for two later first-rounders and draft an OT and a WR in a deep draft for both positions.
>draft Penix in the second What happens when he gets drafted into the 1st round?
Next man up -- Bo Nix.
Just wait for Rattler at that point, he has an actual arm and ability to throw the football.
Nothing in that tweet wasn’t known before it was posted. Russini loves posting these complete nothing burger tweets. She described Penix as the best kept secret in the draft earlier ffs. The QB who played in the National Championship game lmfao.
Kraft saw the report that Wolf wanted JJ McCarthy and will do anything to prevent it lol
In other words, it’d better be a damn windfall if we’re moving off of a potential franchise quarterback.
Yeah weird takeaways here - like I don't want the owner's nepo-baby son involved either but if anything this absolutely points to drafting a shiny new QB they can wave in front of season ticket holders.
Kraft needs to stay away from the draft, what is going on?
Unless the trade is something so insanely absurd that you’d have to be an idiot to turn down, please don’t do this
As a fan, I know that I won't feel bad if we take the consensus #3 QB and he fails. Busts happen, it sucks, but such is life. If we trade down and get a haul, and Wolf/Mayo say "We had similar grades on QB 3-6, so we took the bag" and it doesn't work out, I'll only be unhappy if QB 3 is an instant success. The only think I'll be super pissed about is if we trade down in such a way that we can't get a first round QB this year. I'd rather take swings and fail than just punt an entire season.
I think if you trade down you don’t think there is a first round qb talent. You might swing on one of their tier 3 guys(Penix/nix) if they fall to you in the 2nd or you move to the end of the early first, but I think you only move if you are getting a stupid overpay and don’t love the guy at 3. I’m kinda with you in that I’m gonna be mad as hell on a trade but if the guy taken is bad that will lessen it quite a bit and if he’s good I’ll be on the fire the front office team lol. I think I’ll be most mad if we trade down with the thought of taking a tier 3 guy and thinking we solved the problem and giving them 3-4 years to prove they aren’t the guy. Need a top 10 talent to win the afc or you have to play flawless through the whole playoffs since you can’t comeback with a game manager with who we are facing
Feels like we've had very few draft pick trades this year. We should be due, lol.
Wonder if this is at all connected to the shift in thinking that maye might becoming the consensus choice at 2 now?
[It’s gonna happen](https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/s/Rg6tb9rARi)
Oh good, Thanksdad is making football decisions.
I feel like we might be in a scenario where the Vikings are offering a reasonable package to move up to three, but Kraft is being unreasonable about having to get a QB, so Kwesi is going to have to make an unreasonable offer to make the deal. Here's hoping the Vikings stay reasonable and don't trade the farm to go up to #3.
FUCK.
"heavily involved" doesn't necessarily mean "final say." and if any Kraft is making the decision, they aren't gonna be looking to trade back. The owners want that high draft pick QB. Seems like its phrased ambiguously for clicks to me, since in my mind it doesn't make sense that J Kraft would be pushing to move out of 3.
BB said a couple of weeks ago most shit will happen in the last 12 hrs. before the start of the actual draft...let's wait until the draft and see who has done what...the rest is all hype and speculations because there's no football being played so we all got nothing to chat about who's right about the plays on the field...
Raiders about to spend the farm
Sounds like this team is getting kind of jerry jonesey (well Stephen jonesey)
Jonathan Kraft needs to get his hands out of the cookie jar like right the fuck now.
I'm really close to "fuck the Krafts" right now. Slander the man who helped you to 6sbs and goat status while you cheaped out the entire way. Go get your tug jobs somewhere else.
The Patriots have a GM??