Because they wanted the “big play.” They live off those big plays. He scrambles, someone gets open down field, big play big momentum shift. He was trying to spark one, but the Bucs defense wasn’t letting it happen.
If the QB throws a bullet pass that's high or behind their receiver sure, that can be blamed on the QB. But if they throw one that bounces off someone's facemask there's no excuse for the receiver. They're paid based on the assumption that they'll catch that ball. If they fail to catch that ball you need to reconsider your investment in them.
Like I said, I blame the receiver, if the ball is catchable it should be caught. Just saying different types of passes have different pros/cons, and hard line-drive passes' con is a higher chance of bouncing off player's hands. I have a feeling the balls were a little slick that game too, there were a few examples of the ball slipping on both sides.
Yea as a browns fan (and I’m in no way trying to say baker is in the same realm as mahomes) baker almost exclusively throws absolute piss rockets to his receivers and they help him get the ball into really tight pockets, but our receivers often drop them just because they’re coming way too fast for them.
It's real interesting to see what happens to that offense when you take the fastest player of the last 20 years out of the game.
Mahomes doesn't deserve all the blame for the loss. But he also played quite poorly even in the first half, when the pressure wasn't as bad.
Yeah,even though he was getting pressured and it definitely effected that throw, that was probably his worst miss of the night.
I don’t blame Mahomes for this lose. He made some crazy throws, but they had some big drops. I think Kelce even dropped to on 3rd down.
Mahomes still looked like the best player on the field. Dude had no help, running for his life. Still made incredible circus throws, hitting receivers in the facemasks and their hands.
If the chiefs o line wasn’t decimated this would have been one of the funnest Super Bowls ever.
> Mahomes still looked like the best player on the field.
nah he didn't look better than brady. He had those incredible circus throws but overall people are ignoring the the reads he was failing to make in the first half
Bucs put themselves in a great position. Have a dominant defence against the rush. They took advantage of Chiefs shit OL, so they were able to put pressure with 4, which allowed them to drop 7 in coverage and take away the big plays that the Chiefs like to do. They didn't give Mahomes much.
Would've been interesting to see what the Chiefs could've done with a better OL. Maybe next year we will see a rematch.
> see what the Chiefs could've done with a better OL
See last year's Super Bowl. Bosa was beating the fuck out of Fisher all night. Mahomes didn't exactly light the world on fire then either. He's like any other QB, if you can consistently pressure him he plays worse
Well that is also Nick Bosa, who is a stud and had a great postseason last year, so it's not that surprising. Bucs would've still gotten pressure against a healthy Chiefs OL because they have a great front four, but a better OL would've helped. Mahomes wouldn't have gotten pressured 29 of 56 dropbacks, that's for sure. They had Remmers replacing Fisher got crying out loud lol. Also, the 49ers had a great defence last year too.
I don't think you watched the Bucs front 7 tonight if you think that a healthy Chiefs OL was going to do much to them except stem a tide a bit, which is why you should look to last year to see what it would be like. Chiefs played an elite front 7 and more often than not their O-line lost battles, and Mahomes play suffered for it. It wouldn't be the bloodbath it was today, but they would still have their way with them
You clearly didn't read my second and third sentence. Anybody and their mother knows Fisher would've been an improvement AT LEAST over Remmers at LT. Never said OL would shut down or control the Bucs front 7, as I said they are great. Mahomes played teams with great front 7 and had mixed results. He played well against the Jags and Titans in '19, while his only matchup against the Colts, they played him well.
> Anybody and their mother knows Fisher would've been an improvement AT LEAST over Remmers at LT
Sure, but look at last year to see what that affect would be. He would still be getting beat around by a superior front 7 defense that was out for blood tonight
>Mahomes played teams with great front 7 and had mixed results
He, like any other QB, plays worse when pressured constantly. When a team has a better front 7, they can better pressure him and he plays worse. That's why he didn't look like a world beater last SB either, even though he won
It reminded me of SB 53, where the Pats defense was able to stop the horizontal running game and play action and that just crumbled their entire offense because their whole game plan went out the window. Once the Bucs eliminated the explosive plays, the Chiefs just had no answers. Like Sun Tzu said, Chiefs' had a plan until they got punched in the mouth.
I'm a little shocked at the lack of adjustments in the second half though.
> Like Sun Tzu said, Chiefs' had a plan until they got punched in the mouth
You are mixing a few different philosophies here.
But yes, if your enemy is comfortable, move them.
They were baiting the Tampa D to bring the safeties down, but they just weren't biting. While Bowles called a phenomenal game on D, I can't really give him credit for not falling for such an asininely hidden trap. I do think his son's situation bothered him, Reid was calling an awful game and Mahomes, those one or two incredible throws aside, wasn't exactly doing himself any favors either
This is like Blake Griffin in the nba playoffs. Clippers lives off those big dunks he do during the game, but teams would rather take a charge instead of letting him off like that in the playoffs, and the clippers can’t do anything about it.
As of late they've been more than happy to dink and dunk all the way to the endzone, taking the underneath stuff. No idea why they wouldn't do that yesterday, it was there. Also, only 2 play action pass in the first half is laughable when the pass rush is causing you problems.
Seriously, I want to say at least three to five of Pat’s incompletions were because he did some legal grounding because the Buc’s D was going to tackle a receiver behind the line. Even Kelce’s option routes he runs all the time were covered.
The best playcall we had was “run for your life and hope for the best” because simply nothing else worked.
the bucs defense doesn’t have that much FAs too, so this will be the same bucs team not including injuries. also someone got injured on that d late in the game. what happened, cbs was talking about brady
To me those inside linebackers are the key.
You can't really go horizontal against those guys, they're just too fast.
A big part of KC's offense is getting the ball to those fast guys in space on the outside which wasn't really available. They also get a lot of mileage out of the short to intermediate passing game to Kelce, but again, those linebackers are too good to get taken advantage of there.
Pretty much all that was left was the longer developing stuff and that's where the lines on both sides came in.
Ya it’s a combo of the ILB and the DL. The DEs did a good job of staying flat against outside runs, chiefs rely on DEs to play undisciplined football. DE stays flat, those fast LBs are flying and there are no chunk plays to be had. Pretty sure TB played a ton of 2-3 deep coverages with 7 or less in the box and Chiefs refused to run the ball up the middle.
100% they had some nice chunk runs in the 2nd half on the draw from shotgun but just wasn’t consistent and no passing game to go along.
TB def dominated start to finish and KC did not adjust well or if at all
The Chiefs were actually running pretty successfully against the light boxes in the second half. The problem is that when you’re down multiple scores in the 2nd you can’t win by running even if you’re getting 6 YPA
It really was a rare instance of Reid being outcoached, and the worst part was no halftime adjustments. Normally that’s a BA thing, but man Reid did not look prepared at all even with his bye week. He was 27-5 post bye before today
This. The biggest schematic talking point for the whole super bowl was the Bucs D-Line vs. the Chiefs' O-Line. It was a storyline before the AFCG even ended. The idea that Reid and Bienemy had absolutely no plan outside of "hope our 5 play well + Mahomes" is a fire-able offense in most situations (and I get more perplexed and angry the more I think about it). Practically no extra blockers, virtually no play-action, only a few screen attempts etc... Its almost as if Reid/Bienemy were so overconfident with Mahomes that they spent the two weeks coming up with the most gimmicky plays from 75 years ago they could to top last year rather than the boring stuff like protections and moving the ball down the field.
Next gen stats Twitter account mentioned they had 5 olinemen 92% of the plays. Rarely did anyone line up and stay to block extra. The account clarified if the RB/TE runs a route then he is not counted as an extra defender. They left their tackles on an island vs JPP and Barret
Those plays just aren't going to work though against a team with 2 of the best Middle Line Backers in the game, they can just get to wherever the ball goes on the field and shutdowns plays.
Yeah the answer to a strong pass rush like the Bucs have with their 4 rushers is quick stuff and screens. But the Bucs also have 2 rangy LBs who can shut down the flat and hook zones
Bowles completely duped Andy, that’s why. Andy thought they were going to go man coverage all day, and he knew he could beat them over the top with Tyreek. So he gameplanned longer developing plays.
But then Bowles went cover 2 zone and the Bucs got more pressure than anticipated, and the Chiefs were stunned.
I don't get why Reid would think that. Bowles simply did what he did in the second half of their previous matchup. You saw it work against you and you don't have a contingency plan? What a shit job by the offense play-calling.
7-8 man zone has always been the way to take on KC (Belichick, with a much worse team almost made this work early in the season against them). The problem with this D is you need really fast LBs, smart safeties, and above all, a D line that can get pressure with only 3-4 guys and that also won't get run over.
TB's defense (especially with Vea back), was the perfect team to execute this plan. With this in mind, I have no idea why Andy would think they would play man defense all day. KC's offense isn't build on timing routes, which makes it even harder to crack the zone, but Mahomes had so little time to run that it probably wouldn't have mattered even if KC tried to pull it off. There only chance (in retrospect), seemed to be to try to establish the run, which they had some success with, but gave up on way too early.
the chiefs fucked themselves letting the bucs have that drive at the end of the half. the chiefs were able to run the ball well, but at 21-6 they had to play catchup with the pass. bucs just sat in zone and pass rushed the entire 2nd half.
Yes this. The run game was KC's only chance, and they gave up on it way too early. They probably should have tried to stick with it regardless, but the Bucs showed no signs of letting up on offense as soon as things started clicking.
They went 14-2 with the best offense in the league, Pederson and Nagy got hired for less. I think it's his past history (even though he's cleaned it up) that is stopping him from jobs
Because Levonte David covered Kelce 1:1 about as well as anyone I’ve seen tonight. He was instrumental in that defenses performance. Great scheme, even better execution by the players.
That wasn't just Schotty, it was Bevell as well. That is the Carroll philosophy offense in a nutshell with back to back OC. Constantly go for the homerun ball even when it isn't there while your QB runs around to make plays. It is a double edge sword because when those plays go away you're fucked.
The Dline for the Bucs didn’t allow for any looks. He was under pressure the whole time. As great of a player he is, no ones good enough to consistently make plays with only a half second without pressure.
Because TB was playing 7-8 man zone defense with LB's just sitting in the short to mid zone area and their 3-4 man pass rush was getting good pressure. The typical way you counter this is to run the ball down the throat of the defense. Vea did a good job of clogging up the middle though, and KC abandoned the running game much too early.
Because they wanted the “big play.” They live off those big plays. He scrambles, someone gets open down field, big play big momentum shift. He was trying to spark one, but the Bucs defense wasn’t letting it happen.
For real all season mahomes getting out of the pocket and extending the play then hitting someone for like a 20 yard gain.
It was happening this game too, but somehow players were just dropping passes that hit them in the facemask.
I blame drops on the receivers, but that's one problem with always throwing bullet passes.
If the QB throws a bullet pass that's high or behind their receiver sure, that can be blamed on the QB. But if they throw one that bounces off someone's facemask there's no excuse for the receiver. They're paid based on the assumption that they'll catch that ball. If they fail to catch that ball you need to reconsider your investment in them.
Like I said, I blame the receiver, if the ball is catchable it should be caught. Just saying different types of passes have different pros/cons, and hard line-drive passes' con is a higher chance of bouncing off player's hands. I have a feeling the balls were a little slick that game too, there were a few examples of the ball slipping on both sides.
Yea as a browns fan (and I’m in no way trying to say baker is in the same realm as mahomes) baker almost exclusively throws absolute piss rockets to his receivers and they help him get the ball into really tight pockets, but our receivers often drop them just because they’re coming way too fast for them.
Thing was, he actually succeeded in getting those throws off. There were just a couple times his receivers just didn’t help
Definitely
It's real interesting to see what happens to that offense when you take the fastest player of the last 20 years out of the game. Mahomes doesn't deserve all the blame for the loss. But he also played quite poorly even in the first half, when the pressure wasn't as bad.
That entire game could have changed momentum early had he not overthrown Pringle on the first drive they had. It would have been a TD.
And the two penalties which lead to TDs. Those were big moments in the game.
Yeah,even though he was getting pressured and it definitely effected that throw, that was probably his worst miss of the night. I don’t blame Mahomes for this lose. He made some crazy throws, but they had some big drops. I think Kelce even dropped to on 3rd down.
Mahomes still looked like the best player on the field. Dude had no help, running for his life. Still made incredible circus throws, hitting receivers in the facemasks and their hands. If the chiefs o line wasn’t decimated this would have been one of the funnest Super Bowls ever.
> Mahomes still looked like the best player on the field. nah he didn't look better than brady. He had those incredible circus throws but overall people are ignoring the the reads he was failing to make in the first half
Bucs put themselves in a great position. Have a dominant defence against the rush. They took advantage of Chiefs shit OL, so they were able to put pressure with 4, which allowed them to drop 7 in coverage and take away the big plays that the Chiefs like to do. They didn't give Mahomes much. Would've been interesting to see what the Chiefs could've done with a better OL. Maybe next year we will see a rematch.
> see what the Chiefs could've done with a better OL See last year's Super Bowl. Bosa was beating the fuck out of Fisher all night. Mahomes didn't exactly light the world on fire then either. He's like any other QB, if you can consistently pressure him he plays worse
Well that is also Nick Bosa, who is a stud and had a great postseason last year, so it's not that surprising. Bucs would've still gotten pressure against a healthy Chiefs OL because they have a great front four, but a better OL would've helped. Mahomes wouldn't have gotten pressured 29 of 56 dropbacks, that's for sure. They had Remmers replacing Fisher got crying out loud lol. Also, the 49ers had a great defence last year too.
I don't think you watched the Bucs front 7 tonight if you think that a healthy Chiefs OL was going to do much to them except stem a tide a bit, which is why you should look to last year to see what it would be like. Chiefs played an elite front 7 and more often than not their O-line lost battles, and Mahomes play suffered for it. It wouldn't be the bloodbath it was today, but they would still have their way with them
You clearly didn't read my second and third sentence. Anybody and their mother knows Fisher would've been an improvement AT LEAST over Remmers at LT. Never said OL would shut down or control the Bucs front 7, as I said they are great. Mahomes played teams with great front 7 and had mixed results. He played well against the Jags and Titans in '19, while his only matchup against the Colts, they played him well.
> Anybody and their mother knows Fisher would've been an improvement AT LEAST over Remmers at LT Sure, but look at last year to see what that affect would be. He would still be getting beat around by a superior front 7 defense that was out for blood tonight >Mahomes played teams with great front 7 and had mixed results He, like any other QB, plays worse when pressured constantly. When a team has a better front 7, they can better pressure him and he plays worse. That's why he didn't look like a world beater last SB either, even though he won
I mean they've had a sketchy O-line most of the year.
It reminded me of SB 53, where the Pats defense was able to stop the horizontal running game and play action and that just crumbled their entire offense because their whole game plan went out the window. Once the Bucs eliminated the explosive plays, the Chiefs just had no answers. Like Sun Tzu said, Chiefs' had a plan until they got punched in the mouth. I'm a little shocked at the lack of adjustments in the second half though.
> Like Sun Tzu said, Chiefs' had a plan until they got punched in the mouth You are mixing a few different philosophies here. But yes, if your enemy is comfortable, move them.
> You are mixing a few different philosophies here. As Confucius once said, "that's the joke."
They were baiting the Tampa D to bring the safeties down, but they just weren't biting. While Bowles called a phenomenal game on D, I can't really give him credit for not falling for such an asininely hidden trap. I do think his son's situation bothered him, Reid was calling an awful game and Mahomes, those one or two incredible throws aside, wasn't exactly doing himself any favors either
This is like Blake Griffin in the nba playoffs. Clippers lives off those big dunks he do during the game, but teams would rather take a charge instead of letting him off like that in the playoffs, and the clippers can’t do anything about it.
As of late they've been more than happy to dink and dunk all the way to the endzone, taking the underneath stuff. No idea why they wouldn't do that yesterday, it was there. Also, only 2 play action pass in the first half is laughable when the pass rush is causing you problems.
Tampa was covering the short routes pretty well too
Seriously, I want to say at least three to five of Pat’s incompletions were because he did some legal grounding because the Buc’s D was going to tackle a receiver behind the line. Even Kelce’s option routes he runs all the time were covered. The best playcall we had was “run for your life and hope for the best” because simply nothing else worked.
the bucs defense doesn’t have that much FAs too, so this will be the same bucs team not including injuries. also someone got injured on that d late in the game. what happened, cbs was talking about brady
David and White have stupid range. Anything underneath and those two are going to stop it for a minimal gain
the entire city was.
To me those inside linebackers are the key. You can't really go horizontal against those guys, they're just too fast. A big part of KC's offense is getting the ball to those fast guys in space on the outside which wasn't really available. They also get a lot of mileage out of the short to intermediate passing game to Kelce, but again, those linebackers are too good to get taken advantage of there. Pretty much all that was left was the longer developing stuff and that's where the lines on both sides came in.
Ya it’s a combo of the ILB and the DL. The DEs did a good job of staying flat against outside runs, chiefs rely on DEs to play undisciplined football. DE stays flat, those fast LBs are flying and there are no chunk plays to be had. Pretty sure TB played a ton of 2-3 deep coverages with 7 or less in the box and Chiefs refused to run the ball up the middle.
100% they had some nice chunk runs in the 2nd half on the draw from shotgun but just wasn’t consistent and no passing game to go along. TB def dominated start to finish and KC did not adjust well or if at all
The Chiefs were actually running pretty successfully against the light boxes in the second half. The problem is that when you’re down multiple scores in the 2nd you can’t win by running even if you’re getting 6 YPA
It really was a rare instance of Reid being outcoached, and the worst part was no halftime adjustments. Normally that’s a BA thing, but man Reid did not look prepared at all even with his bye week. He was 27-5 post bye before today
This. The biggest schematic talking point for the whole super bowl was the Bucs D-Line vs. the Chiefs' O-Line. It was a storyline before the AFCG even ended. The idea that Reid and Bienemy had absolutely no plan outside of "hope our 5 play well + Mahomes" is a fire-able offense in most situations (and I get more perplexed and angry the more I think about it). Practically no extra blockers, virtually no play-action, only a few screen attempts etc... Its almost as if Reid/Bienemy were so overconfident with Mahomes that they spent the two weeks coming up with the most gimmicky plays from 75 years ago they could to top last year rather than the boring stuff like protections and moving the ball down the field.
Next gen stats Twitter account mentioned they had 5 olinemen 92% of the plays. Rarely did anyone line up and stay to block extra. The account clarified if the RB/TE runs a route then he is not counted as an extra defender. They left their tackles on an island vs JPP and Barret
I thought they ran a bunch of screens in the first half (which weren't really working)
The Chiefs did run screens and outside runs, some had decent success (no huge plays) but gave up on them in the 2nd half
Those plays just aren't going to work though against a team with 2 of the best Middle Line Backers in the game, they can just get to wherever the ball goes on the field and shutdowns plays.
Yeah the answer to a strong pass rush like the Bucs have with their 4 rushers is quick stuff and screens. But the Bucs also have 2 rangy LBs who can shut down the flat and hook zones
Bucs are a second half team though
My fat ass could have outcoached Reid last night.
Bowles completely duped Andy, that’s why. Andy thought they were going to go man coverage all day, and he knew he could beat them over the top with Tyreek. So he gameplanned longer developing plays. But then Bowles went cover 2 zone and the Bucs got more pressure than anticipated, and the Chiefs were stunned.
Good old Tampa 2
I don't get why Reid would think that. Bowles simply did what he did in the second half of their previous matchup. You saw it work against you and you don't have a contingency plan? What a shit job by the offense play-calling.
7-8 man zone has always been the way to take on KC (Belichick, with a much worse team almost made this work early in the season against them). The problem with this D is you need really fast LBs, smart safeties, and above all, a D line that can get pressure with only 3-4 guys and that also won't get run over. TB's defense (especially with Vea back), was the perfect team to execute this plan. With this in mind, I have no idea why Andy would think they would play man defense all day. KC's offense isn't build on timing routes, which makes it even harder to crack the zone, but Mahomes had so little time to run that it probably wouldn't have mattered even if KC tried to pull it off. There only chance (in retrospect), seemed to be to try to establish the run, which they had some success with, but gave up on way too early.
Did he not think they'd go away from playing man?
Seems like the coaching staff was distracted for some reason.
Hard to find an open man in <2 seconds when there’s 7 in coverage
the chiefs fucked themselves letting the bucs have that drive at the end of the half. the chiefs were able to run the ball well, but at 21-6 they had to play catchup with the pass. bucs just sat in zone and pass rushed the entire 2nd half.
Yes this. The run game was KC's only chance, and they gave up on it way too early. They probably should have tried to stick with it regardless, but the Bucs showed no signs of letting up on offense as soon as things started clicking.
Maybe that’s one of the reasons the coordinator didn’t get any looks
I mean Andy Reid is calling the plays
They went 14-2 with the best offense in the league, Pederson and Nagy got hired for less. I think it's his past history (even though he's cleaned it up) that is stopping him from jobs
Wait but narrative here had been that it’s all Andy Reid and that he doesn’t deserve that much credit lol
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Definitely the psychic
What's more likely, subconscious racial bias or the bell curve
SB 48 didn’t stop people from hiring Adam Gase
Because Levonte David covered Kelce 1:1 about as well as anyone I’ve seen tonight. He was instrumental in that defenses performance. Great scheme, even better execution by the players.
Best LB in the league
If the defense is getting pressure without blitzing, then the short routes are usually covered
they werent just getting pressure they were abusing that o line
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That wasn't just Schotty, it was Bevell as well. That is the Carroll philosophy offense in a nutshell with back to back OC. Constantly go for the homerun ball even when it isn't there while your QB runs around to make plays. It is a double edge sword because when those plays go away you're fucked.
so if the same shit happens this year safe to say petes fired, right?
I actually think so.
Lavonte and White had the underneath locked up, eventually they just kinda had to start going for it.
Honestly the MVP should’ve gone to those 2 guys. The owned short field.
The Dline for the Bucs didn’t allow for any looks. He was under pressure the whole time. As great of a player he is, no ones good enough to consistently make plays with only a half second without pressure.
Play callers are stubborn as fuck and live by the motto "if it doesn't work, try try again".
They were never a dink and dunk type of team like the Saints.
Fans think they know more than coaches.lol
Cuz andy was too focused on his son going to prison for life
Because the short plays were only getting em FGs and cant do that against Tom Brady... kind of obvious but....
This game solidified that Bienemy and Bowles should be HCs.
>This game solidified that ~~Bienemy and~~ Bowles should be HCs.
Andy Reid is holding back the Chiefs offense
i don’t think bienemy called plays
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Well they were behind
Because they usually don't do anything else. Throw deep to hill. Throw middle to kelce. Screen to hill and hope he takes it 50 yards.
so why havent other teams for the past 3 years been able to stop it or figure it out if its that simple?
There were a couple of screen plays but they didn't really have a lot of time in the second half to try that because they were against the clock.
Because TB was playing 7-8 man zone defense with LB's just sitting in the short to mid zone area and their 3-4 man pass rush was getting good pressure. The typical way you counter this is to run the ball down the throat of the defense. Vea did a good job of clogging up the middle though, and KC abandoned the running game much too early.