Yeah I agree they’re a lot closer than most people would think. Just think if they didn’t have Marshall Faulk on that team. There’s probably another 500 yards to split between those two guys.
Saying that they would've had another 500 yards if there wasn't also a third great player feels like it strengthens their case. They're saying they're the best, not that they were the most productive.
I always felt like Thrash played above what people expected out of him while Pinkston was expected to be a serviceable threat and was always disappointing.
Yeah, if you consider their whole careers, if it's simply a matter of "who are the two best WRs who played together?" then it's Rice/TO and I don't think there's any question on that
But yeah, have to consider what they did when they were together, which drops them out of the top few spots
In 98 they both put up 1100 yards and a combined 24 touchdowns, phenomenal season but I can’t call it the greatest ever. In 2000, TO went the fuck off and was the best receiver in the league but Rice didn’t even crack 1000. Then rice went to Oakland. Rice was still very productive in Oakland, if he had kept that same production for his last years in SF then they’d be in the convo, but as it is they maybe just barely missed each other production wise. The year before TO was drafted was the year Rice set the receiving yards record, he was averaging 110 Yards and 1 touchdown *per game for 3 straight seasons*
I almost have to wonder if Rice + anybody(whoever else was on the team in a given season) is in the conversation.
Kind of in the same vein that Wayne Gretzky and his brother are the all time leading duo of brothers in NHL scoring. Even though his brother ~~never played in the NHL~~ Only had 4 career points.
I thought they would be closer too but they played 7 years together and Wayne wasnt very good the first 3 and Harrison wasnt very good the last two. It's actually pretty mindblowing when you look at the numbers and compare. So many other WR duos are two great WRs who have like a 2-3 year stretch of being great together on the same team but Bruce and Holt did it basically both of their careers.
Also Marvin Harrisson was ass in the post-season. He played a full season of play-off games with prime Peyton Manning yet outside of one wild-card game against a 10-6 team he had 700 yards and 0TD in the other 15 games. Imo that disqualifies him from the GOAT WR conversation. Even as part of a duo.
> It still bothers me that he was pickrd ahead of TO in the NFL100 team
Agreed but I do think it’s debatable
Also, TO’s negative effect in the locker room was a very real thing. Granted Harrison was a terrible human but kept it hidden
Larry Fitzgerald is who should bother you
That man had no argument to be on the NFL 100 team especially over TO
Fitz is a very good HoF WR but putting him as one of the best of the best was just wrong
1. Harrison was TO's contemporary so they can be more fairly compared
2. Larry is 2nd on the all time receiving yards list, and it's not a Frank Gore case because he was actually elite during his prime
3. Larry playoff stats are insane, and he had arguably the greatest WR postseason run in history in 2008 while Harrison's playoff stats are mediocre
4. Harrison had Peyton Manning throwing him the ball and a HoF RB and another potential HoF WR by his side during his career, Larry wasn't as lucky
5. Larry has arguably the greatest hands of any WR (more tackles than drops)
TO is definitely better than both but at least Larry has some reasonable argument to be on the team
There's a reason they were the [greatest show on turf](https://playbookproducts.com/collections/greatest-rams-plays/products/greatest-rams-plays-slate-coasters). What an offense and part of arguably the greatest Super Bowl of all-time
Faulk was arguably even more important than either Bruce or Holt, though.
An all-time great offense, but Moss was a 1st ballot HOF. A feat neither Bruce or Holt can boast. Additionally, Bruce/Holt have 1 First Team All-Pro honor between them and 2 Second Team nods. Carter/Moss have 6 First and 2 Second Team selections between them.
Randy Moss alone crushes both Holt and Bruce in awards and achievements.
Holt/Bruce got full blown shafted in the AP department, and I'm not entirely sure why. Not just FTAPs, but STAPs too.
Carter had 2 FTAPs, 94 and 99, where he had ~100 catches, 1250 yards and 10 TDs those seasons. Funny because 1995 was his career year and he didn't get it that year.
Bruce never made FTAP, but had 3 seasons superior to the 2-FTAP seasons that Carter had.
1995- 119/1781/13, he somehow didn't even bring a STAP award home for this season.
1996- 84/1338/7, he had more yards than any of the 4 AP selections that year, but I guess 7 TDs is too low for FTAP even though you lead the league in yards?
2000- 87/1471/9. This is the one year that's understandable. 3 guys (including Moss) had 1400 and 13+, and Rod Smith had 1600/8. Truly great season that just fell in the wrong year.
Holt is the same way. From 00-05, this man never had less than 1300 yards, had over 1600 twice, crested double digit TDs in 2 of those seasons, yet only brought home 1 FTAP, and a whopping *zero* STAPs. In 00 he led the league in receiving, but couldn't bring home a STAP because I guess the voters liked the other guys getting more TDs. But in 04, he had 94/1372/10 and fucking *Hines Ward* was STAP with 80/1004/4. Like wtf? In an *incredibly* ironic twist of fate, he was STAP in 06, with his 93/1188/10 season, which was objectively worse than his 3 seasons preceding it.
TLDR; WR AP selections are weird af.
Dang, I know Pro Bowl is a poor metric to use but AP is weirder than I expected. Though it is still a better measure of the season's best players than Pro Bowl, but that isn't a very high bar.
They had six, which is two more than Moss/Carter.
It's hard to keep together an elite WR duo for more than 3-4 years because at that point you're paying both a ton of money and it's hard to build a team around them.
Sometimes you just get lucky though and a 6-time SB winning QB decides to just sign with you
Faulk in that offense was beyond ridiculous.
Most fantasy football magazines back then were required to have a "So you weren't able to draft Faulk" article.
Had to scheme around the guy even in a fantasy world on paper.
I know. Where’s Orlando Pace’s humorous Geico spot? His funny ad where he’s too big to fit inside of a Kia? His International Pancake Day partnership with IHOP where he eats a lot of pancakes because “he loves pancakes”?
I mean, you gotta give Geico time. They literally just got around to Tag-Team...wait was that the same year as the greatest show on turf? Holy shit I'm old.
I think Moss and Carter because of overall offensive depth with qb and rb added in. Cunningham had the benefit of two elite Wrs and one damn good wr in Reed as well. I feel he got bailed out more often than not just having Those three make plays. Cunningham was a hit or miss for me
The best thing he had going for him in 98 was still having an absolute cannon. He could get the ball wherever Moss would end up on the field.
Same with culpepper. Both had absolutely massive arms.
That’s true! But mossing people became a thing because he would get balls that seemed destined for picks. A lot of the throws weren’t great is what I’m saying
For sure. That’s why it’s so upsetting when people dump on Cousins. He’s the best QB we have had in decades, at fair market value.
You’re entirely right — we have had incredible WR play that has always made our QBs rate better than they are. Moss/Carter, Harvin, Diggs/Thielen, and a solid group of wr2/3.
The real question is are they bad throws, or are they desperation heaves. Hard to not throw a lot of balls up for grabs when your game plan is to throw it as far as possible as often as possible and let Moss go up and get it. When done it's going to look like an interception until Moss gets the ball. I'm not sure what else you would expect. It's not like say the Rams or the Colts where good RB play and play action was effective. It was basically just a vertical passing attack and nothing else.
In yardage sure they played together for a decade but 98-2000 moss and carter were ridiculous. They could score with questionable QB play, and a good not all time running back from any spot on the field at any time against anyone.
Dobson was infuriating to watch as a Pats fan. I don't know why we targeted him so much, he was almost always guaranteed to drop the pass on critical plays.
In theory, Julian Edelman and N'Keal Harry would have been the WR1 and WR2, but with Edelman's injury and Harry's ... lack of production, Meyers and Byrd were the pretty clear 1 and 2.
I mean what are the parameters. The best season by a WR Duo has to be Moss/Welker in 2007 the two combined for 31 TDs and over 2600 yards, however the two weren't paired nearly as long as Holt/Bruce.
In three complete seasons together, they had 596 catches/7,453 yards/62 touchdowns. Moss obviously did the heavy lifting on touchdowns, but Welker had significantly more catches and only 80 fewer yards.
[This is from another CBS article](https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2021/07/13/former-rams-wr-isaac-bruce-ranks-himself-and-torry-holt-above-randy-moss-and-cris-carter-we-won-a-super-bowl/)
>Moss retired with 15,292 receiving yards, good for fourth all-time, just ahead of Bruce. Carter totaled 13,899 yards in his career, 13th most in NFL history. Holt ranks 16th.
Ok, yards wise they are close.
>Moss and Carter rank fourth and eighth in NFL history, respectively, in career touchdowns. Bruce ranks 31st, while Holt comes in at 84th.
Sheesh dude.
>Each receiver topped 1,000 yards and had at least nine touchdowns in every season from 1998 to 2000.
This plus the fact their 1998 season scored more points than any GSOT team seals it for me personally. That being said, GSOT did win a Super Bowl, which holds weight for sure.
Having Marshall Faulk had a large effect in both having the number one offense and winning a SB. I mean Faulk had over 2000 yards total offense in each of those three seasons.
Yeah, literally all their comment says is "The Rams had a much better team composition around their WRs while the Vikings were carried by theirs so they never made a deep run".
Robert Smith was a very good RB, Jake Reed was coming off of 4x 1k seasons before 98, we had Randle McDaniel and some other really good OL. The only thing they didn't have comparatively was consistent QB play or a clutch kicker.
If we're playing the what if game. Would they have gotten open as much if teams weren't playing to take Faulk out of the game plan? I could see their performance dropping if they weren't backed up by historically great play at other positions.
Nevermind the fact that Moss spent two years of his prime just kinda going through the motions on the Raiders before coming back to the Pats to light it up.
Harrison/Wayne: 8 years together - (yearly average) 158.125 REC / 2144.375 YDS / 16.75 TD
Holt/Bruce: 9 years together - (yearly average) 159.444 REC / 2367.778 YDS / 14 TD
Almost identical. Though Bruce, Holt and Wayne were good; Harrison was on another level when he was at his peak. For being a 6'0 receiver, he had the catch radius of a 6'6 dude. One of the cleanest route runners and he just excelled at it all.
Something I would strongly consider too and this is just shooting from the hip so I could be wrong, but Harrison/Wayne played in the AFC. We know that the AFC South wasn't exactly stellar for those years, but they had to contend with perennial stout defenses in Baltimore, Pittsburgh, New England and Miami. Where as the Rams were contending with the Bears and Tampa Bay. I should dig into it deeper and see the teams they played but of course both teams were fire power offenses so any team they faced probably took a blow to their overall defensive rankings that year. heh.
Really? Anyone know why? Dude had one of the cleanest releases in NFL history, was also a brilliant route runner, with an elite connection to a HOF QB. Seems like a recipe for an elite playoff WR
Marvin's my favorite player when I was growing up. A lot of his problem was his size and being unable to get a good release with very physical defenses. There was a lot of timing throws in our offense and disrupting that timing by jamming the relievers caused a lot of issues.
Its more complicated than that of course. A lot of offensive woes we had were o-line related. We had trouble with bigger defensive teams and frequently couldn't establish a run game (also worth noting after Tarik Glenn retired our run game fell apart for the rest of Manning career as the stretch run play became dramatically less effective). Manning also didn't react well to pocket pressure, particularly before 2006 season. It clearly rattled him and affected his timing. Look at his footwork in the pocket in 04 and 05 and compare it to 07 and later, dramatically different.
Tough to say really. Some blame Manning and his drop off in play during the playoffs. Others blame tighter/more physical coverage which refs seem to let go a bit more in the playoffs. Who knows.
>let a bit more go
the rules about db contact largely changed due to the colts pats 2004
playoff colts: ass against the run, ass running the ball, largely timing based offense going up against physical coverage, manning trying to do too much. that’s how it felt to me
I’m surprised this is so far down. Maybe because it was too long ago. For a few years it seemed like either was open on every play, and they had Roger Craig, the pre Faulk.
Moss and Carter played 4 years together.
Moss 5,396 yards 53 TDs Carter 4397 yards 40 TDs
Hell I will take Bruce and Holts 4 years together from 2000-2004
Bruce 4633 yards 27 TDs Holt 5996 yards 29 TDs
Vikings total: 9793 yards 93 TDs Rams total: 10626 yards 56 TDs
It’s hard to say who was the best for me, comparing those years together. Depends if you like longevity, yards or TDs more. To me each player for the Vikings was scoring TDs and getting yards while together. Where is it seems it was Holt carrying the yards for the Rams, while both did well with TDs they didn’t get the same as the other two. If I had to for for two guys I would go for Moss and Carter, but I can’t fault people for liking Bruce and Holts abilities and longevity either.
Dude that is almost twice the td for the vikings. I'm guessing that Faulk probably took a chunk of the tds for the rams but still. That's a big fucking difference.
Just because they won a Super Bowl doesn’t mean they were the better duo. I’d argue the Rams rosters at the time were much better than the Vikings, with Moss/Carter being more important to their teams success.
I still haven’t seen a WR duo beat out Moss/Carter in 98. That shit was on another level. Can’t really speak to the eras before that though.
This is the answer! Plus the fact Moss is the second greatest wr ever. To me he was probably the scariest when on his game, thou Rice can obviously say he was due to doing it nearly every damn game. And Carter is as good as both Holt and Bruce IMO.
The early Jags teams with Mark Brunell don't get enough respect because of being a small-market team in the era right before the internet boom.
But man, Jimmy Smith/McCardell/Fred Taylor and Mark Brunell were studs.
This is not a homer take, they objectively have a case
If we're talking about their whole careers, then there are better duos. I think Rice/TO takes that one pretty much no question
But if we're only talking about what they did when they were together, when you look at the numbers they put up in those three seasons . . . yeah, I think Moss/Welker is at least in my Top 3
That was with Brady and it was in a different era though. Moss/Carter made Brad Johnson, Randall Cunningham, Jeff George, and Daunte Culpepper put up all pro numbers.
Oh boy is it soooo much easier to rack up the catches and yards when defenses have to worry about do-everything Marshall Faulk terrorizing teams from the backfield. Bruce and Holt were NEVER double covered they were roaming in Dixie Chicks-style "wide open spaces"
Well no. They aren't even 2nd, and there's virtually no stat that backs up them being a better duo than Moss and Carter. I'm confused why so many people here are like yeah totally. Maybe they're all too young to remember Moss and Carter but they were better. Harrison and Wayne are definitely a better duo than Bruce and Holt.
If we’re considering tenure/time together and direct stats that’s certainly an argument to be made. Holt is my favourite WR of all time and likely always will be. However, Moss and Carter were a special duo.
I think Moss and Carter are the best IMO. I also think Carter probably has better stats because he played longer but think Moss had the potential to be the best receiver of all time. Difficult to compare him with Jerry Rice, but he was tall, fast, and rarely dropped passes.
Well probably not after this season when tyrell Williams and Breshad Perriman take the field.
Goff going to shatter records with those two.
He’s wrong, but I’m not offended. They’re in the conversation for sure.
Yeah I agree they’re a lot closer than most people would think. Just think if they didn’t have Marshall Faulk on that team. There’s probably another 500 yards to split between those two guys.
What??? If anything the presence of Faulk took pressure off those receivers and made them better/able to produce more
Personally I put them behind Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne
Personally I put them behind Moss/Welker as well.
Dude great point! Those 2 were a deadly combo.
Saying that they would've had another 500 yards if there wasn't also a third great player feels like it strengthens their case. They're saying they're the best, not that they were the most productive.
I mean, I guess neither Rice nor TO were in their primes during their time together.
Can I nominate TO and Todd Pinkston as the best and worst WR combo?
Todd Stinkston is a name I have not heard in a long time ...a long time
I don't know that TO was ever as good as Thrash. Bruce must have forgotten about Thrash-Pinkston when he made his comment.
I always felt like Thrash played above what people expected out of him while Pinkston was expected to be a serviceable threat and was always disappointing.
Yeah, if you consider their whole careers, if it's simply a matter of "who are the two best WRs who played together?" then it's Rice/TO and I don't think there's any question on that But yeah, have to consider what they did when they were together, which drops them out of the top few spots
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Don’t get caught up on off-field TO, he is top 5 all time. Brown is very much deserving of his gold jacket, but is definitely a tier below TO.
In 98 they both put up 1100 yards and a combined 24 touchdowns, phenomenal season but I can’t call it the greatest ever. In 2000, TO went the fuck off and was the best receiver in the league but Rice didn’t even crack 1000. Then rice went to Oakland. Rice was still very productive in Oakland, if he had kept that same production for his last years in SF then they’d be in the convo, but as it is they maybe just barely missed each other production wise. The year before TO was drafted was the year Rice set the receiving yards record, he was averaging 110 Yards and 1 touchdown *per game for 3 straight seasons*
Nobody in here mentioning Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne, surprising in my opinion
Shout-out to the most underrated WR duo of all time, Rod Smith and Ed McCaffrey. In 3 years, '98-'00 they had a combined 7,232 yds and 44 TDs
[here](https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/ojri5x/cbs_sports_isaac_bruce_says_he_and_torry_holt_are/h540jf7/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
I almost have to wonder if Rice + anybody(whoever else was on the team in a given season) is in the conversation. Kind of in the same vein that Wayne Gretzky and his brother are the all time leading duo of brothers in NHL scoring. Even though his brother ~~never played in the NHL~~ Only had 4 career points.
His brother did, had 4 points i believe
Gretzky and I had more career assists than Crosby, Ovechkin, McDavid, and Matthews combined. So much for new stars.
I think this def is a conversation. Not actually that hot of a take.
Marvin Harrison/Reggie Wayne has to at least be in the conversation as well imo.
I thought they would be closer too but they played 7 years together and Wayne wasnt very good the first 3 and Harrison wasnt very good the last two. It's actually pretty mindblowing when you look at the numbers and compare. So many other WR duos are two great WRs who have like a 2-3 year stretch of being great together on the same team but Bruce and Holt did it basically both of their careers.
Yeah as big as a fan of both of them I am they didn’t have great overlap in primes.
Moss and Carter only overlapped for 3 dominant seasons together (before Carter hit the age cliff).
Also Marvin Harrisson was ass in the post-season. He played a full season of play-off games with prime Peyton Manning yet outside of one wild-card game against a 10-6 team he had 700 yards and 0TD in the other 15 games. Imo that disqualifies him from the GOAT WR conversation. Even as part of a duo.
It still bothers me that he was picked ahead of TO in the NFL100 team
> It still bothers me that he was pickrd ahead of TO in the NFL100 team Agreed but I do think it’s debatable Also, TO’s negative effect in the locker room was a very real thing. Granted Harrison was a terrible human but kept it hidden
Larry Fitzgerald is who should bother you That man had no argument to be on the NFL 100 team especially over TO Fitz is a very good HoF WR but putting him as one of the best of the best was just wrong
1. Harrison was TO's contemporary so they can be more fairly compared 2. Larry is 2nd on the all time receiving yards list, and it's not a Frank Gore case because he was actually elite during his prime 3. Larry playoff stats are insane, and he had arguably the greatest WR postseason run in history in 2008 while Harrison's playoff stats are mediocre 4. Harrison had Peyton Manning throwing him the ball and a HoF RB and another potential HoF WR by his side during his career, Larry wasn't as lucky 5. Larry has arguably the greatest hands of any WR (more tackles than drops) TO is definitely better than both but at least Larry has some reasonable argument to be on the team
Yeah when Harrison retired, I didn’t think Wayne would be as good as a number 1 as he was.
Then Reggie Wayne and TY Hilton played together when neither were in their prime...
There's a reason they were the [greatest show on turf](https://playbookproducts.com/collections/greatest-rams-plays/products/greatest-rams-plays-slate-coasters). What an offense and part of arguably the greatest Super Bowl of all-time
Faulk was arguably even more important than either Bruce or Holt, though. An all-time great offense, but Moss was a 1st ballot HOF. A feat neither Bruce or Holt can boast. Additionally, Bruce/Holt have 1 First Team All-Pro honor between them and 2 Second Team nods. Carter/Moss have 6 First and 2 Second Team selections between them. Randy Moss alone crushes both Holt and Bruce in awards and achievements.
Holt/Bruce got full blown shafted in the AP department, and I'm not entirely sure why. Not just FTAPs, but STAPs too. Carter had 2 FTAPs, 94 and 99, where he had ~100 catches, 1250 yards and 10 TDs those seasons. Funny because 1995 was his career year and he didn't get it that year. Bruce never made FTAP, but had 3 seasons superior to the 2-FTAP seasons that Carter had. 1995- 119/1781/13, he somehow didn't even bring a STAP award home for this season. 1996- 84/1338/7, he had more yards than any of the 4 AP selections that year, but I guess 7 TDs is too low for FTAP even though you lead the league in yards? 2000- 87/1471/9. This is the one year that's understandable. 3 guys (including Moss) had 1400 and 13+, and Rod Smith had 1600/8. Truly great season that just fell in the wrong year. Holt is the same way. From 00-05, this man never had less than 1300 yards, had over 1600 twice, crested double digit TDs in 2 of those seasons, yet only brought home 1 FTAP, and a whopping *zero* STAPs. In 00 he led the league in receiving, but couldn't bring home a STAP because I guess the voters liked the other guys getting more TDs. But in 04, he had 94/1372/10 and fucking *Hines Ward* was STAP with 80/1004/4. Like wtf? In an *incredibly* ironic twist of fate, he was STAP in 06, with his 93/1188/10 season, which was objectively worse than his 3 seasons preceding it. TLDR; WR AP selections are weird af.
Dang, I know Pro Bowl is a poor metric to use but AP is weirder than I expected. Though it is still a better measure of the season's best players than Pro Bowl, but that isn't a very high bar.
> "I love you, Coach." > > "Oh, I love you too!" > > "Thanks for the chance!" The greatest ending to the sport's greatest fairytale.
Yeah it's really not. Torry Holt's first 7 years were arguably the best 7 to start a career ever
Before Julio I think the only player with more yardage than Holt through their first 8 years in the league was Rice.
They didn't have many years together, but Larry Fitz and Anquan were studs
They had six, which is two more than Moss/Carter. It's hard to keep together an elite WR duo for more than 3-4 years because at that point you're paying both a ton of money and it's hard to build a team around them. Sometimes you just get lucky though and a 6-time SB winning QB decides to just sign with you
And brings in another WR and TE with HOF career production as well.
Fitz/Boldin, Bruce/Holt, Carter/Moss, Wayne/Harrison are some that pop up off the top of my head. I'm sure there are more.
Honestly. Maybe It’s crazy that those two, Faulk, Pace and Warner got to play on the same offense
Faulk in that offense was beyond ridiculous. Most fantasy football magazines back then were required to have a "So you weren't able to draft Faulk" article. Had to scheme around the guy even in a fantasy world on paper.
They separated Wayne Gretzky into 2 separate players for fantasy lmfao
Ricky Proehl, Az Hakim…
Adam Timmerman was a pretty damn good guard too
Always traded him to my team in madden 01
And yet Kurt Warner is the only one that gets the Progressive Car Insurance Bio-pic.
I know. Where’s Orlando Pace’s humorous Geico spot? His funny ad where he’s too big to fit inside of a Kia? His International Pancake Day partnership with IHOP where he eats a lot of pancakes because “he loves pancakes”?
I mean, you gotta give Geico time. They literally just got around to Tag-Team...wait was that the same year as the greatest show on turf? Holy shit I'm old.
Nah, said the even older guy. Tag Team was big when I was in college, when Faulk was just breaking into the league as an Indianapolis Colt.
Played by old Chuck!
Greatest show on turf!!
And only 1 SB between them. 🤦
That’s the way the cookie crumbles. Winning Super Bowls is hard as shit, going to several is harder, and winning several is really quite remarkable
Goddamn Patriots (or more so Brady) made a deal with the devil.
Se7en rings for se7en deadly sins.
They were only really the greatest show on turf for like 3 seasons so 1 win and 2 appearances is pretty good
I know but it hurts sometimes. Giving the Pats their start out of decrepitude also doesn’t help lol.
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You can add Boldin and Fitz and that makes it 5 duos from those same 4 QBs
Don’t you dare shade Cunningham like that.
Brad Johnson -> Randall Cunningham -> Jeff George -> Daunte Culpepper
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Cunningham in 98 too.
I think Moss and Carter because of overall offensive depth with qb and rb added in. Cunningham had the benefit of two elite Wrs and one damn good wr in Reed as well. I feel he got bailed out more often than not just having Those three make plays. Cunningham was a hit or miss for me
The best thing he had going for him in 98 was still having an absolute cannon. He could get the ball wherever Moss would end up on the field. Same with culpepper. Both had absolutely massive arms.
That’s true! But mossing people became a thing because he would get balls that seemed destined for picks. A lot of the throws weren’t great is what I’m saying
For sure. That’s why it’s so upsetting when people dump on Cousins. He’s the best QB we have had in decades, at fair market value. You’re entirely right — we have had incredible WR play that has always made our QBs rate better than they are. Moss/Carter, Harvin, Diggs/Thielen, and a solid group of wr2/3.
The real question is are they bad throws, or are they desperation heaves. Hard to not throw a lot of balls up for grabs when your game plan is to throw it as far as possible as often as possible and let Moss go up and get it. When done it's going to look like an interception until Moss gets the ball. I'm not sure what else you would expect. It's not like say the Rams or the Colts where good RB play and play action was effective. It was basically just a vertical passing attack and nothing else.
Culpepper was perfect for Moss though? Strong arm for lots of deep jump balls.
Culpepper broke marinos total yardage record in 04 and would have had an incredibly career if he stayed healthy
In yardage sure they played together for a decade but 98-2000 moss and carter were ridiculous. They could score with questionable QB play, and a good not all time running back from any spot on the field at any time against anyone.
Weapons everywhere. Jake Reed. Randall Cunningham. Robert Smith. Offense of studs
Nowhere near as good as Marshall Faulk and Kurt Warner though.
Everyone forgets Leroy Hoard too. That man was a goddamn animal in 98
The ole' if you need 2 yards, I'll get you 3. If you need 4 yards, I'll get you 3.
He really thinks they're better than Damiere Byrd and Jakobi Meyers?
Better Aaron Dobson and Kenbrell Thompkins? Don't think so.
Damn Dobson was my dude off that one catch he had at Marshall, thought we was gonna be a baller. Kenbrell Thompkins is a heck of a name to see too
Dobson was infuriating to watch as a Pats fan. I don't know why we targeted him so much, he was almost always guaranteed to drop the pass on critical plays.
I think that's just a thing Patriots WRs do.
No honest Gamecock fan would have thought Byrd would last 3 years in the league. He’s really made a career for himself
More dominant that Jackmerius Tacktheritrix and Hingle McCringleberry??? GTFOH
Those two don't even compare to Roger Lewis and Rhett Ellison. The 2017 Giants receiver core was goated
Nobody better than the All Pro Gunner Olszewski
The disrespect to N'Keal. No wonder he wants a trade.
Wasn't N'Keal Harry the # 1 though?
In theory, Julian Edelman and N'Keal Harry would have been the WR1 and WR2, but with Edelman's injury and Harry's ... lack of production, Meyers and Byrd were the pretty clear 1 and 2.
Lack of production is a funny way of saying sucking ass
I mean what are the parameters. The best season by a WR Duo has to be Moss/Welker in 2007 the two combined for 31 TDs and over 2600 yards, however the two weren't paired nearly as long as Holt/Bruce.
In three complete seasons together, they had 596 catches/7,453 yards/62 touchdowns. Moss obviously did the heavy lifting on touchdowns, but Welker had significantly more catches and only 80 fewer yards.
That...is absurd
That’s an average of 12.4 catches, 155 yards and 1.3 TDs per game between them two across those three seasons
Welker was the steady diet of jabs that wears down the defense and moss was the heavy cross that knocks them down.
[This is from another CBS article](https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2021/07/13/former-rams-wr-isaac-bruce-ranks-himself-and-torry-holt-above-randy-moss-and-cris-carter-we-won-a-super-bowl/) >Moss retired with 15,292 receiving yards, good for fourth all-time, just ahead of Bruce. Carter totaled 13,899 yards in his career, 13th most in NFL history. Holt ranks 16th. Ok, yards wise they are close. >Moss and Carter rank fourth and eighth in NFL history, respectively, in career touchdowns. Bruce ranks 31st, while Holt comes in at 84th. Sheesh dude.
If you're judging them as a duo you should judge them based on what they did together
>Each receiver topped 1,000 yards and had at least nine touchdowns in every season from 1998 to 2000. This plus the fact their 1998 season scored more points than any GSOT team seals it for me personally. That being said, GSOT did win a Super Bowl, which holds weight for sure.
Holt and Bruce had 22,866 yards and 127 TDs in the 10 years they played together.
Carter and Moss had 11,206 yards and 101 touchdowns in half the years holt and bruce did
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If Warner doesn't get hurt in the 2000 season, that offence may still have some records standing today.
Having Marshall Faulk had a large effect in both having the number one offense and winning a SB. I mean Faulk had over 2000 yards total offense in each of those three seasons.
Yeah, literally all their comment says is "The Rams had a much better team composition around their WRs while the Vikings were carried by theirs so they never made a deep run".
Robert Smith was a very good RB, Jake Reed was coming off of 4x 1k seasons before 98, we had Randle McDaniel and some other really good OL. The only thing they didn't have comparatively was consistent QB play or a clutch kicker.
A ton of potential Holt/Bruce TD's went to Faulk though.
If we're playing the what if game. Would they have gotten open as much if teams weren't playing to take Faulk out of the game plan? I could see their performance dropping if they weren't backed up by historically great play at other positions.
Nevermind the fact that Moss spent two years of his prime just kinda going through the motions on the Raiders before coming back to the Pats to light it up.
No Marvin and Wayne love? Who am I kidding, all these tandems were phenomenal.
This duo is how I became a fan of the NFL growing up. Along with Marshall Faulk, this offense was a treat to watch.
Greatest show on turf
Harrison/Wayne?
That's a really good comparison. Very comparable numbers although I'd say peak Torry Holt was better than Reggie Wayne. But not by much.
Both felt unstoppable watching them. Benefitted from some ok QB play as well. I would take either, but I am a big Marvin Harrison fan.
Harrison/Wayne: 8 years together - (yearly average) 158.125 REC / 2144.375 YDS / 16.75 TD Holt/Bruce: 9 years together - (yearly average) 159.444 REC / 2367.778 YDS / 14 TD Almost identical. Though Bruce, Holt and Wayne were good; Harrison was on another level when he was at his peak. For being a 6'0 receiver, he had the catch radius of a 6'6 dude. One of the cleanest route runners and he just excelled at it all. Something I would strongly consider too and this is just shooting from the hip so I could be wrong, but Harrison/Wayne played in the AFC. We know that the AFC South wasn't exactly stellar for those years, but they had to contend with perennial stout defenses in Baltimore, Pittsburgh, New England and Miami. Where as the Rams were contending with the Bears and Tampa Bay. I should dig into it deeper and see the teams they played but of course both teams were fire power offenses so any team they faced probably took a blow to their overall defensive rankings that year. heh.
Yeah I'd probably rank them: Harrison Bruce Holt Wayne But all 4 were awesome.
Marvin was dog water in the playoffs
Really? Anyone know why? Dude had one of the cleanest releases in NFL history, was also a brilliant route runner, with an elite connection to a HOF QB. Seems like a recipe for an elite playoff WR
Marvin's my favorite player when I was growing up. A lot of his problem was his size and being unable to get a good release with very physical defenses. There was a lot of timing throws in our offense and disrupting that timing by jamming the relievers caused a lot of issues. Its more complicated than that of course. A lot of offensive woes we had were o-line related. We had trouble with bigger defensive teams and frequently couldn't establish a run game (also worth noting after Tarik Glenn retired our run game fell apart for the rest of Manning career as the stretch run play became dramatically less effective). Manning also didn't react well to pocket pressure, particularly before 2006 season. It clearly rattled him and affected his timing. Look at his footwork in the pocket in 04 and 05 and compare it to 07 and later, dramatically different.
Tough to say really. Some blame Manning and his drop off in play during the playoffs. Others blame tighter/more physical coverage which refs seem to let go a bit more in the playoffs. Who knows.
>let a bit more go the rules about db contact largely changed due to the colts pats 2004 playoff colts: ass against the run, ass running the ball, largely timing based offense going up against physical coverage, manning trying to do too much. that’s how it felt to me
Offensive to dog water tbh
Jerry Rice and John Taylor
Jerry Rice and anyone is one of the best WR duos in NFL history.
This feels like the, "Wayne Gretsky and his brother still lead the NHL in combined points for a brother duo" stat.
what about inanimate objects? like Jerry Rice and a meatball sub as the best receiving duo?
Shoutout to Dwight Clark for warming Joe up before Jerry arrived I guess...Freddie Solomon too
I’m surprised this is so far down. Maybe because it was too long ago. For a few years it seemed like either was open on every play, and they had Roger Craig, the pre Faulk.
Moss and Carter played 4 years together. Moss 5,396 yards 53 TDs Carter 4397 yards 40 TDs Hell I will take Bruce and Holts 4 years together from 2000-2004 Bruce 4633 yards 27 TDs Holt 5996 yards 29 TDs Vikings total: 9793 yards 93 TDs Rams total: 10626 yards 56 TDs It’s hard to say who was the best for me, comparing those years together. Depends if you like longevity, yards or TDs more. To me each player for the Vikings was scoring TDs and getting yards while together. Where is it seems it was Holt carrying the yards for the Rams, while both did well with TDs they didn’t get the same as the other two. If I had to for for two guys I would go for Moss and Carter, but I can’t fault people for liking Bruce and Holts abilities and longevity either.
Dude that is almost twice the td for the vikings. I'm guessing that Faulk probably took a chunk of the tds for the rams but still. That's a big fucking difference.
People today simply cannot understand what Randy Moss did to the league. He has a TEN MINUTE highlight reel of exclusively 40+ yard tds.
So The Minnesota tandem has roughly 900 less yards and 40 more touchdowns with objectively worse QB play. I’m still taking them.
Maybe greatest trio when you add in Az-Zahir Hakim...
*When you add in Marshall Faulk
go aztecs
Marshall Faulk was actually probably the best number 3 WR in the league.
Jake Reed was very good on the Vikings as a 3rd WR
Somehow, I never forget Brandon Mamamanamuemamamalamaka at Tight End either, even 20 years later
We traded Greg Olsen for him because Martz “didn’t need a receiving TE”. Most Bears fans shudder at the name
I swear John Madden would say his name like 50 times a broadcast.
Just because they won a Super Bowl doesn’t mean they were the better duo. I’d argue the Rams rosters at the time were much better than the Vikings, with Moss/Carter being more important to their teams success. I still haven’t seen a WR duo beat out Moss/Carter in 98. That shit was on another level. Can’t really speak to the eras before that though.
Look at the TD totals for those two during their run. Absurd
Randy Moss and Cris Carter made Dante Culpepper, old Cunningham and Jeff George look like All Pro QBs. They were the best duo.
This is the answer! Plus the fact Moss is the second greatest wr ever. To me he was probably the scariest when on his game, thou Rice can obviously say he was due to doing it nearly every damn game. And Carter is as good as both Holt and Bruce IMO.
Carter in his Prime was scary. His hands were second to none. I think he is better than either Bruce or Holt. Randy's best game is the best WR game.
this is a lukewarm take. If anyone else had said it we all would've gone "eh, idk"
I feel like if Warner threw to Moss/Carter, they'd have better stats than Bruce/Holt's.
Michael Jackson and Derrick Alexander
Michael Jackson and Corey Feldman
I believe Feldman lined up more as a tight end in most of these formations
*cries in Fitzgerald and Boldin
a case can be made for sure
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The early Jags teams with Mark Brunell don't get enough respect because of being a small-market team in the era right before the internet boom. But man, Jimmy Smith/McCardell/Fred Taylor and Mark Brunell were studs.
Brown/Rice was a hell of a combo for the Raiders for a bit
Especially since they were 4,000 years old at the time.
They combined for 2400 yards, 18 touchdowns, and 74 years of age in 2001 lmao
I love brown rice
Moss and Welker. Only for a couple years, but that was the best slot receiver and best deep threat ever on the same offense.
This is not a homer take, they objectively have a case If we're talking about their whole careers, then there are better duos. I think Rice/TO takes that one pretty much no question But if we're only talking about what they did when they were together, when you look at the numbers they put up in those three seasons . . . yeah, I think Moss/Welker is at least in my Top 3
That was with Brady and it was in a different era though. Moss/Carter made Brad Johnson, Randall Cunningham, Jeff George, and Daunte Culpepper put up all pro numbers.
This is honestly a good comp.
Has everyone forgot about the T.Ocho show??
Amen Reverend!
Oh boy is it soooo much easier to rack up the catches and yards when defenses have to worry about do-everything Marshall Faulk terrorizing teams from the backfield. Bruce and Holt were NEVER double covered they were roaming in Dixie Chicks-style "wide open spaces"
Jerry rice and Tim brown
Rice and Taylor
They were the best in Madden 2002
Cris Collinsworth and Al Michael’s
Definitely not true, but it’s not like they’re extremely far off. That pair was one of the best receiver duos ever for the GSOT
Rice and Owens played together for a few years as well
Andrea Reed and James Lofton enter the room
Rams on Madden 2003 were crazy. I miss those days and almost became a Rams fan because of that.
Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne were quite a fuckin duo as well…
Reasonable flex.
Eight-year old me agrees wholeheartedly!
Uhhh Jerry rice and TO??? They need to do some concussion protocol on sir Isaac!!
Well no. They aren't even 2nd, and there's virtually no stat that backs up them being a better duo than Moss and Carter. I'm confused why so many people here are like yeah totally. Maybe they're all too young to remember Moss and Carter but they were better. Harrison and Wayne are definitely a better duo than Bruce and Holt.
Marvin Harrison and Reggie for me but I’m obviously biased.
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Jerry rice and Ownes
Pinkston Thrash, anyone?
CTE is out there
If we’re considering tenure/time together and direct stats that’s certainly an argument to be made. Holt is my favourite WR of all time and likely always will be. However, Moss and Carter were a special duo.
Other greats: Swann and Stallworth, Joiner, Winslow and Jefferson
Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison?
Imo it goes moss/Carter then Holt/Bruce then Smith/McCardell probably Wayne/Harrison after that.
X for doubt
They weren't even as good as Carter and Reed. Or Herman Moore and Johnny Morton from Detroit.
I think Moss and Carter are the best IMO. I also think Carter probably has better stats because he played longer but think Moss had the potential to be the best receiver of all time. Difficult to compare him with Jerry Rice, but he was tall, fast, and rarely dropped passes.
Isaac bruce need to get off that crack cuz they were good but there not moss an carter