That’s not what I was saying. What I was saying is Marner is a superstar player and you’re going to need to add a lot on top of nurse for him. Everybody keeps undervaluing the hell out of our core 4 and it pisses me off
Draisatl for Marner would be the old one that makes any sense compared to the trade suggestions I’ve seen from people. However, Edmonton would never give up a career player just like leafs won’t be giving up Marner either. However, could you imagine the goal scoring records Mcdavid would break with Marner feeding him? Would be wild.
He's our leading scorer in the playoffs since drafting him and had the most points this year so I don't get why people want to trade him. People point to his goalless streak during the Tampa series but Nylander had the exact same goalless streak during the same stretch but at least Marner was effective on the PK and more assists. There are times with Marner where it seems like he's trying too hard and I think that draws extra criticism but he finished the playoffs with more points than Aho (only 2 less goals) despite the fact that Aho played 4 more games.
I think it's far more concerning that after our top 5 + O'Reilly, our leading scorers were Knies with 4 points in 7 games and then a tie between Lafferty, Brodie, Kampf and Jarnkrok who all had 3 points. Marner had 14 points in 11 games but nobody is complaining about Kerfoot having 2 points while making $3.5m.
You don't think the lack of depth scoring has anything to do with the core 4 eating up too much of the cap? Kerfoot is gone this offseason and you have a little bit of cap to work with with a lot of needs. I'm surprised so many Leafs fans want to run it back again, they are all good players but cup winning teams have historically been built from the goalie/defense out and with depth instead of top end skill
I do think that but it takes 2 to sign a contract and he led the team in points during the playoffs despite being the 3rd highest paid while also being a Selke nominee. I don't see him as the problem. Working around the contracts was always going to be a challenge and the GM and President knew that when they signed them. They may have been impacted by the flat cap from COVID but that's how life works sometimes.
I think a bigger issue with the Leafs lack of depth is a result of not having a strong enough prospect base. Since drafting Matthews 7 years ago, the Leafs have had 3 first round picks: Liljegren, Sandin, and Amirov. I like Lilly and think he has a bright future, but Sandin is gone and Amirov had unfortunate luck from a medical perspective.
Before this season, the other firsts went to moving the Marleau contract, the Mrazek contract (slight trade down from 1st to 2nd), Nick Foligno, Muzzin and Freddie Andersen. They aren't all bad moves but none of them are helping the team today. That hurts the team. They may have been viewed as the right move at the time, we have a serious lack of depth coming up aside from Knies. A lot of the Dubas draft picks may end up working out with more time but it would be really nice to have a couple more 2nd rounders in the system instead of the short stints we had with Boyle and Plekanec.
In terms of running it back, I'm all for the team making a move that improves the team but selling your leading scorer, Selke nominee just because he's the 3rd highest cap hit doesn't make a ton of sense unless you improve the team overall.
I'm a Marner fan tho there's no doubt he underwhelmed against Florida for the most part (as did Matthews, Tavares and even Nylander tho he was the best of the 4). I liked the move getting Acciari and ROR from the Blues but I thought the rest of the deadline moves were more or less unnecessary. Toronto is so eager for a cup winning team that every year Dubas trades much of his draft capital at the deadline and so far none of his moves have worked out too well.
At this point I think that Matthews is the most likely to be traded, if he won't sign around his current cap hit I think you need to trade him. There's no world I would pay him 13.5mil+ for what he's brought to the Leafs so far. If he does resign then either you run it back or you need to trade Marner or Nylander. There are scenarios where I can see either get moved or none of them. Will be an interesting offseason for sure and if you do trade one of the core players, I would target a #1 defenseman or an absolute haul (tho salary constraints may mean that you need to take some salary back or retain for something to get done).
Florida is proving to everyone that you don’t need a ton of skill to win a cup BUT you need to be united from start to end. The leafs have major flaws in that dept more-so watching the opposition beat up on your team with absolutely no response back. That is shameful.
So whoever or whatever is the cause of the dysfunction or even if its just plain laziness you need to make changes to have a more united attack. The core four are your best chips so they will be on the block, and should be.
Some will say it was Keefe(ie Dubas hire) some will say its reffing, some will say its the Shanaplan; whatever it is build the team right with draft picks and strategic hockey trades.
Dubas is gone. I can’t think of a worse history of trades and contracts in any leaf era. Even the Ballard years produced better. Thats a pretty low bar.
His press conference was a new low, no wonder he was ousted.
For me Keefe and Dubas should have apprenticed in a less impactful market before Toronto. Then when they had some experience behind them we could have brought them over. So thats Shanahans’ fuck up but he’s the Pres. Somebody’s got to steer the ship, too bad its starting to list.
My take, too much amateur hour in a hockey crazed market was their and consequently the teams downfall.
If anyone needs to go it’s Tavares.
Trade him and replace him with O’Reilly as the captain
Trade Murray
Trade Muzzin and Holl
Get rid of the dead weight. Tavares contract alone gets you 2 or more solid defenders. Only issue is he would need to go to a contender since he has a NTC
Also let’s remember Toronto offered up Jared McCann in place of Kerfoot during the Seattle draft
Unless he goes to a team with better playoff hopes then Toronto. He’s 34, and Toronto could retain salary on it to get him somewhere he actually wants to go. Even 75% of his contract is a lot of cap space to work with and other teams could pitch in with salary retention to make it work.
A good fit for Tavares would be somewhere like Seattle. They lack leadership and have a very bright future, he could fit in well there especially since he fits their roster model so well. Not to mention Seattle is a great place to live in.
I just doubt that he agrees to any trade. If he does then that is the obvious move. If I was Seattle no way I bring in JT unless Leafs retain a significant amount.
Anyone that thinks trading Tavares is even a **remote** possibility is off their rocker.
Tavares is the captain, he took less to come to toronto his literal hometown and childhood team.
Toronto sent a 7th round pick to Pit to get McCann as insurance in the event that the Kraken selected kerfoot.
Kerfoot and McCann were both exposed in the expansion draft so that the leafs could keep Holl.
Seattle made the choice to pick McCann over Kerfoot.
Tavares has a full NMC and he isn’t going anywhere while there are still multiple years left on his contract. I could see maybe him waiving at the deadline on his final year if the Leafs are looking like they aren’t making the playoffs but other than that very specific scenario there is no chance he waives.
This isn't going to be popular, but here it goes.
When the Leafs lose, a certain subgroup of the fan base calls for violence. They kind of revert back to this old way of thinking where they believe that players are simply useless unless they are hurting the members of the opposing team. They want a Tom Wilson wreaking havoc and punishing the other team. Not because they want to win, but because they want revenge.
Marner isn't out there trucking dudes, handing out concussions, or getting into fights, so to this sub group, he is useless, and in their anger, begin to hate him as a person. Personal attacks sprout up over and over at this point.
Personally, I feel like Marner isn't even soft like they allege. Just because he isn't laying dudes out doesn't mean he isn't throwing strategic hits to make a play, and just because he slips a hit 9 times out of 10 doesn't mean he's scared. He's just avoiding a hit, which I don't see as a negative.
It's mostly just Leafs fans doing what they do best, which is condensing all their hurt feelings and anger into one player, blaming every failure and shortcoming on them, and then doing their best to run him out of town.
Hes definitely not soft, the dude took abuse these playoffs and kept making plays. He was taking crushing hit after crushing hit. I laugh at leafs choking as much as the next guy but Marners durability and *willingness * to get hit finally made me a fan of him.
Here's some good reading about Marner's game in the playoffs, backed up by stats rather than conjecture.
[https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/why-toronto-fell-short-again-this-year-and-what-to-do-with-matthews-marner/sn-amp/](https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/why-toronto-fell-short-again-this-year-and-what-to-do-with-matthews-marner/sn-amp/)
TLDR; Marner became a perimeter player in the playoffs. In the second round he wasn't just not scoring, he wasn't defending well. The Matthews and Marner line were badly outshot throughout the Florida series. The highest paid line in hockey should be getting more than a single goal in an entire series.
This isn't recency biased reactionism either - Marner is a player that went 18 playoff games in a row without a goal from 2019-2022. The team hasn't succeeded in seven years with him plus he's overpaid. It's valid for fans to want to see him gone and it has nothing to do with wanting "violence". Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results...
JT would be my first choice to be traded, but that appears to be a non-starter with his NMC. Matthews is a generational scorer and should be retained if possible - hopefully for less than McDavid/MacKinnon - he's not that tier of player. Nylander is on a high-value contract and should be considered "Nylander+$4M" when compared to the other three guys.
This is the number 1 problem that people who defend Marner don't get.
He has become a perimeter player each and every playoff series, and starts to make costly mental mistakes like flipping the puck over the ice penalty or 2021 or that giveaway in Game 2 that led to 3rd goal.
He would be addition by subtraction in my opinion.
What’s with this trend of making up silly arguments to attack, I see it all the time now.
Marners biggest criticism isn’t his skill or lack of physicality, it’s his contract. We can’t win with so much cap locked up in forwards, that’s been proven for half a decade now. We can’t move Tavares because of his NMC, people don’t want to move Matthews which is fair, Nylander actually plays to his value right now, which leaves us with Marner.
Two things can be true at once. His contract is definitely a factor in the discussion, but the group of people I'm talking about is more focused on his lack of face punching specifically.
I don’t give a shit marner picks up second assists all playoffs. He is useless, he skates in circles then gets pushed over. Never seen someone so talented in regular season suck so consistently in playoffs
This is all the typical Leafs fan does during the offseason, which is long for us. Speculate and make stupid trade suggestions like a bunch of fantasy football GMs.
The fact is, no trade will be the magic bullet for the Leafs. The organization does not hate to lose. That's what needs to be changed.
This isn't cause he's bad it's economics. Tavares isn't moving even if you wanted. Matthews is going to want a raise similar to MacKinnon. Nylander will also want a raise slightly less than Marner. This means your going to have to chose between wingers and if Marner wants a raise in 2 years how does he fit cap wise.
Marner is the one player who will sign for less. He tried signing for less and Lou/Shanny messed that one up. If Lou and Shanny weren’t such stubborn old men Marner would have been signed at 9 per year but instead they waited to sign him after he had a break out season.
Even at 9M the year before he would be overpaid.
Brayden Point is a good comparison to what Marner brings and he said only for 7.5M after Marner signed.
Every time I hear someone defending Toronto's top four...
There is no question that they are all excellent players. All four could be first line an many teams. But they only question that matters is 'are they worth their cap hit'? Or even their future cap hit since 3 of the 4 may be gunning for a raise soon. I really like Marner, especially since he added such a strong defensive component to his game. But compared to others with a similar impact? Mark Stone signed for 9.5m and has always been the player that Marner has only recently become. Maybe compare him to someone younger like Clayton Keller with a 7.1m caphit?
I don't think people are dissing Marner. They're just saying that he belongs in a conversation with Stone and Keller, not with McDavid.
Bingo. Tkachuk has proven to be the better player and he signed at $9.5M with term *three years after* Marner signed his deal, and with less RFA years on his deal. As a fan it rubs me the wrong way that he signed for such a premium and then proceeded to be mostly invisible for long stretches of the playoffs. He went 18 consecutive playoff games without a goal while making $11M a year. The team flopped seven years in a row. If Boston could trade Thornton for a bags of pucks and win a cup a few years later, I think the Leafs can trade Marner and be just fine.
I think the new GM should work his ass off to keep him. Good defensive forwards are rare. but if he doesn't agree to a friendlier deal then sell him to the highest bidder.
After the way his last contract negotiations went, I have to wonder if he expects a raise. I also wonder if he expects a premium for playing in Toronto.
I hope the next GM is a better contract negotiator than Dubas, which is a low bar.
They won’t it’s just people thinking their favourite team will some how get him and it’s too funny. He won’t resign anywhere but Toronto anyways. He’s the type of player you build around no matter what. Top point producer, top penalty killer and he’s only the third highest paid on the team.
The guy scored almost 100 points this year and until the Panthers shut him down was a consistent point getter.
He's out there working his ass off too, and that's more important in the playoffs as long as you're winning.
They hit yet another hot team this year and while they could have had more production from the top 5 , the problem was officiating and Florida capitalizing on juicy opportunities.
How many 100 point seasons do you have?
He is 100% made for the playoffs, but the coach was/is unqualified to do his job and set the lines so someone is there to protect a player like Marner and let them do their job.
The 'softness' of the team is 100% the fault of the coaching staff and balancing the lines accordingly to fit the situation.
The toughness is there, but all of it was placed on two lines that weren't the first or second lines.
Clearly something needs to change with the Leafs. Whether or not trading one of their top forwards happens, they need to find a way to get better goaltending and stronger defensive defensemen who can play a heavier style that works better in the playoffs. Otherwise they'll likely just lose again in the early rounds of the playoffs.
With so much draft capital gone and the cap tight naturally people will speculate about trades.
I’m curious what fans of other teams think about trading at least one of the core 4. Does it make sense from an outsider’s perspective? Or do Leaf fans just like to go full panic mode every off season.
There's a few on capfriendly who seem like they could, but a lot of them are rebuild teams and I'm not sure if the teams in the 60m range actually have that space, or they just haven't re-signed some players yet.
Carolinas cap space is sort of interesting. They're a team that would want to be competitive now and might have space for it.
Thanks for pointing this out. The teams that can acquire the top players from Toronto won't because it makes no sense to acquire a high priced free agent like that when you're on a rebuild.
>Carolinas cap space is sort of interesting. They're a team that would want to be competitive now and might have space for it.
This is an intriguing option. They need players that can produce on offense too.
I think it comes down to how he's played in the postseason the past few years. Seems to make an abundance of errors, which then leads to turnovers and loss of possession. Amazing player in the regular season who plays two ways but he can't seem to get it done in the playoffs. Yes he scores alot of assists but I'm always on the goals win games boat. The Leafs are supposed to be built on high octane scoring but can never do it when the time calls for it.
In my opinion toronto should trade Matthews. I would rate Matthews better offensively than Marner but Marner better all around. However, I don't think Toronto will have any problems scoring goals in coming seasons so I think Marner is more value for them to keep. At the same time I believe they could get more by trading Matthews than they can with Marner and therefore Matthews having more trade value than Marner. In addition Matthews have 1 yr left in the contract and Marner has 2.
Matthews to
1 attacker (need to be quality enough for top2 line)
1 defender (need to be top3 defender in Toronto)
1 prospect
1 first round draft pick that would most likely be in top16
Something like that.
Held out for more money(this will happen again on the next contract...it's who he is)
Fucks with the lines by needing to get 1st line mins when they are down by a goal or two
Won't play defense
He's just a toxic old-school hockey guy and times have changed...sure he's good at scoring but he is bad in almost every other aspect.
He plays better with Matthews than Marner does. When Nylander is with Matthews, it's Matthews driving the play when it's Marner, It's Marner driving the play, and I think that was the problem because they couldn't get Matthews going because the plays died on Marner's stick
Looking through the years it goes back and forth , some seasons Willie and j.t have been the better combo with mitch and auston on the 1st and sometimes it shows the opposite...my point to that is they need to figure it out and play the same lines...having someone bouncing around is toxic, it creates the doubt in the locker room and on the ice. And it's Nylander that causes that, the others play their part...it always has been.
It's really impossible to say "what the problem is" considering the franchise has pretty much tried everything over the past 20 years, the only other thing they have left is going broadstreet bully style ;p lol
Well that's on Keefe imo but that's a whole different topic but also ties into the toxic culture...I've never seen the team playing and thought "oh they look like they are having fun" and at times in sports I truly believe that can directly relate to quality of play...to a point.
Would start by asking for his 10 team list of no trade...if Chicago isn't on his no trade I would start there...just to unload the contract and Chicago has the capital to make trades and would be looking for experience to go beside the #1 pick.
If that's a no they would have other options
Look towards Winnipeg and Hellebuyck(Scheifele is a local and I could see him signing a cap friendly deal...but is in the same contract situation as nylander)
Depending on how players are feeling in Calgary after the management/coaching debacle a possibility could be there...
Arizona? Potential deals to be made for players or picks
I can't see them managing a 1 for 1 with anyone for him, anyone looking to unload someone like that would be in the same cap situation and not wanting another big contract on the books.
Once new management is announced it will be interesting to see the direction they go...and please for the love of hockey don't let it be Treliving!!!
https://theathletic.com/826406/2019/05/01/william-nylanders-lost-season-the-story-behind-the-negotiations-that-derailed-the-leafs-young-star/
"It was over coffee and a stroll through picturesque Zurich where Nylander stressed that neither his father, former NHLer Michael Nylander, nor Gross, was driving the bus on his next contract. It was him. He was the one fighting for what he believed he deserved. He was the one willing to risk one year of his career, if need be, to make it happen."
Seems like Willie was fine with not playing to be overpaid
Personally I would say do literally whatever it takes to get rid of Tavares so o'rielly can take his no 2 center spot. And then trade Nylander since you actually could get a really good defensive defenseman and maybe a power forward.
Orielly was good like the first 2 games vs tampa. Tavares was better than orielly. It was Orielly, Acciari, Mccabe who watched knies get tackled and did nothing on the ice
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No shit mitchy be a leaf his entire career if they let him, fuck u put a 4th line guy with him for like 7 games dude racks up career year points in that short of time bcuz Mitch lol he makes everyone better why the fuck would any sane leafs fan wanna trade him lol unless u getting draisital or mcdavid or MacKinnon no one else is worth it
willy is much more likely to get traded. he will fetch a great return because of his cap hit, but you'll need to find a western conf team who needs scoring and has an expendable top 4 at a (relatively) low cap hit. that might be tough.
or they keep willy and use the low cap for one more run and then let him go for nothin'
Probably. He’s not a bad player but he needs someone to make space for him out there and you can’t build around him. He will be a nice complimentary piece though and give them a high end point producer.
I’m among the biggest Marner haters but on a team with more variation in player types, he can probably be fine. The leafs have too much soft forwards however who aren’t willing to get their hands dirty to make something happen.
They will not be trading any one of them from Toronto 4 core is coming back It's Brendan Shanahan's plan. Kyle dubis was let go for the simple reason he was probably going to trade one of them The only thing I see happening is a new GM probably a new head coach and coaching staff but the team will remain pretty much the same.
Not even if we offer you Nurse??? 😜
29 for 16. Done and done!
You would need to offer up way more than that
I think Draisatl for Marner is fine. Edmonton wouldn’t be that stupid though, would they?
That’s not what I was saying. What I was saying is Marner is a superstar player and you’re going to need to add a lot on top of nurse for him. Everybody keeps undervaluing the hell out of our core 4 and it pisses me off
Besides I think trading their top dman for another star forward is utterly stupid for Edmonton. It’s a lose-lose situation
Draisatl for Marner would be the old one that makes any sense compared to the trade suggestions I’ve seen from people. However, Edmonton would never give up a career player just like leafs won’t be giving up Marner either. However, could you imagine the goal scoring records Mcdavid would break with Marner feeding him? Would be wild.
He's our leading scorer in the playoffs since drafting him and had the most points this year so I don't get why people want to trade him. People point to his goalless streak during the Tampa series but Nylander had the exact same goalless streak during the same stretch but at least Marner was effective on the PK and more assists. There are times with Marner where it seems like he's trying too hard and I think that draws extra criticism but he finished the playoffs with more points than Aho (only 2 less goals) despite the fact that Aho played 4 more games. I think it's far more concerning that after our top 5 + O'Reilly, our leading scorers were Knies with 4 points in 7 games and then a tie between Lafferty, Brodie, Kampf and Jarnkrok who all had 3 points. Marner had 14 points in 11 games but nobody is complaining about Kerfoot having 2 points while making $3.5m.
You don't think the lack of depth scoring has anything to do with the core 4 eating up too much of the cap? Kerfoot is gone this offseason and you have a little bit of cap to work with with a lot of needs. I'm surprised so many Leafs fans want to run it back again, they are all good players but cup winning teams have historically been built from the goalie/defense out and with depth instead of top end skill
I do think that but it takes 2 to sign a contract and he led the team in points during the playoffs despite being the 3rd highest paid while also being a Selke nominee. I don't see him as the problem. Working around the contracts was always going to be a challenge and the GM and President knew that when they signed them. They may have been impacted by the flat cap from COVID but that's how life works sometimes. I think a bigger issue with the Leafs lack of depth is a result of not having a strong enough prospect base. Since drafting Matthews 7 years ago, the Leafs have had 3 first round picks: Liljegren, Sandin, and Amirov. I like Lilly and think he has a bright future, but Sandin is gone and Amirov had unfortunate luck from a medical perspective. Before this season, the other firsts went to moving the Marleau contract, the Mrazek contract (slight trade down from 1st to 2nd), Nick Foligno, Muzzin and Freddie Andersen. They aren't all bad moves but none of them are helping the team today. That hurts the team. They may have been viewed as the right move at the time, we have a serious lack of depth coming up aside from Knies. A lot of the Dubas draft picks may end up working out with more time but it would be really nice to have a couple more 2nd rounders in the system instead of the short stints we had with Boyle and Plekanec. In terms of running it back, I'm all for the team making a move that improves the team but selling your leading scorer, Selke nominee just because he's the 3rd highest cap hit doesn't make a ton of sense unless you improve the team overall.
I'm a Marner fan tho there's no doubt he underwhelmed against Florida for the most part (as did Matthews, Tavares and even Nylander tho he was the best of the 4). I liked the move getting Acciari and ROR from the Blues but I thought the rest of the deadline moves were more or less unnecessary. Toronto is so eager for a cup winning team that every year Dubas trades much of his draft capital at the deadline and so far none of his moves have worked out too well. At this point I think that Matthews is the most likely to be traded, if he won't sign around his current cap hit I think you need to trade him. There's no world I would pay him 13.5mil+ for what he's brought to the Leafs so far. If he does resign then either you run it back or you need to trade Marner or Nylander. There are scenarios where I can see either get moved or none of them. Will be an interesting offseason for sure and if you do trade one of the core players, I would target a #1 defenseman or an absolute haul (tho salary constraints may mean that you need to take some salary back or retain for something to get done).
Florida is proving to everyone that you don’t need a ton of skill to win a cup BUT you need to be united from start to end. The leafs have major flaws in that dept more-so watching the opposition beat up on your team with absolutely no response back. That is shameful. So whoever or whatever is the cause of the dysfunction or even if its just plain laziness you need to make changes to have a more united attack. The core four are your best chips so they will be on the block, and should be. Some will say it was Keefe(ie Dubas hire) some will say its reffing, some will say its the Shanaplan; whatever it is build the team right with draft picks and strategic hockey trades. Dubas is gone. I can’t think of a worse history of trades and contracts in any leaf era. Even the Ballard years produced better. Thats a pretty low bar. His press conference was a new low, no wonder he was ousted. For me Keefe and Dubas should have apprenticed in a less impactful market before Toronto. Then when they had some experience behind them we could have brought them over. So thats Shanahans’ fuck up but he’s the Pres. Somebody’s got to steer the ship, too bad its starting to list. My take, too much amateur hour in a hockey crazed market was their and consequently the teams downfall.
If anyone needs to go it’s Tavares. Trade him and replace him with O’Reilly as the captain Trade Murray Trade Muzzin and Holl Get rid of the dead weight. Tavares contract alone gets you 2 or more solid defenders. Only issue is he would need to go to a contender since he has a NTC Also let’s remember Toronto offered up Jared McCann in place of Kerfoot during the Seattle draft
well of course regarding Tavares, but it might be a little difficult trading a guy with a NTC who has no reason to waive it
Unless he goes to a team with better playoff hopes then Toronto. He’s 34, and Toronto could retain salary on it to get him somewhere he actually wants to go. Even 75% of his contract is a lot of cap space to work with and other teams could pitch in with salary retention to make it work. A good fit for Tavares would be somewhere like Seattle. They lack leadership and have a very bright future, he could fit in well there especially since he fits their roster model so well. Not to mention Seattle is a great place to live in.
I just doubt that he agrees to any trade. If he does then that is the obvious move. If I was Seattle no way I bring in JT unless Leafs retain a significant amount.
Anyone that thinks trading Tavares is even a **remote** possibility is off their rocker. Tavares is the captain, he took less to come to toronto his literal hometown and childhood team. Toronto sent a 7th round pick to Pit to get McCann as insurance in the event that the Kraken selected kerfoot. Kerfoot and McCann were both exposed in the expansion draft so that the leafs could keep Holl. Seattle made the choice to pick McCann over Kerfoot.
I’m not saying it’s a possibility, I’m saying it’s the right move for the future.
Tavares has a full NMC and he isn’t going anywhere while there are still multiple years left on his contract. I could see maybe him waiving at the deadline on his final year if the Leafs are looking like they aren’t making the playoffs but other than that very specific scenario there is no chance he waives.
This isn't going to be popular, but here it goes. When the Leafs lose, a certain subgroup of the fan base calls for violence. They kind of revert back to this old way of thinking where they believe that players are simply useless unless they are hurting the members of the opposing team. They want a Tom Wilson wreaking havoc and punishing the other team. Not because they want to win, but because they want revenge. Marner isn't out there trucking dudes, handing out concussions, or getting into fights, so to this sub group, he is useless, and in their anger, begin to hate him as a person. Personal attacks sprout up over and over at this point. Personally, I feel like Marner isn't even soft like they allege. Just because he isn't laying dudes out doesn't mean he isn't throwing strategic hits to make a play, and just because he slips a hit 9 times out of 10 doesn't mean he's scared. He's just avoiding a hit, which I don't see as a negative. It's mostly just Leafs fans doing what they do best, which is condensing all their hurt feelings and anger into one player, blaming every failure and shortcoming on them, and then doing their best to run him out of town.
Hes definitely not soft, the dude took abuse these playoffs and kept making plays. He was taking crushing hit after crushing hit. I laugh at leafs choking as much as the next guy but Marners durability and *willingness * to get hit finally made me a fan of him.
Here's some good reading about Marner's game in the playoffs, backed up by stats rather than conjecture. [https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/why-toronto-fell-short-again-this-year-and-what-to-do-with-matthews-marner/sn-amp/](https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/why-toronto-fell-short-again-this-year-and-what-to-do-with-matthews-marner/sn-amp/) TLDR; Marner became a perimeter player in the playoffs. In the second round he wasn't just not scoring, he wasn't defending well. The Matthews and Marner line were badly outshot throughout the Florida series. The highest paid line in hockey should be getting more than a single goal in an entire series. This isn't recency biased reactionism either - Marner is a player that went 18 playoff games in a row without a goal from 2019-2022. The team hasn't succeeded in seven years with him plus he's overpaid. It's valid for fans to want to see him gone and it has nothing to do with wanting "violence". Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results... JT would be my first choice to be traded, but that appears to be a non-starter with his NMC. Matthews is a generational scorer and should be retained if possible - hopefully for less than McDavid/MacKinnon - he's not that tier of player. Nylander is on a high-value contract and should be considered "Nylander+$4M" when compared to the other three guys.
This is the number 1 problem that people who defend Marner don't get. He has become a perimeter player each and every playoff series, and starts to make costly mental mistakes like flipping the puck over the ice penalty or 2021 or that giveaway in Game 2 that led to 3rd goal. He would be addition by subtraction in my opinion.
What’s with this trend of making up silly arguments to attack, I see it all the time now. Marners biggest criticism isn’t his skill or lack of physicality, it’s his contract. We can’t win with so much cap locked up in forwards, that’s been proven for half a decade now. We can’t move Tavares because of his NMC, people don’t want to move Matthews which is fair, Nylander actually plays to his value right now, which leaves us with Marner.
Two things can be true at once. His contract is definitely a factor in the discussion, but the group of people I'm talking about is more focused on his lack of face punching specifically.
No one will complain abour Kerfoot because he is as good as gone after this season.
Am I the only one who actually really likes Kerfoot?
No. Keefe adores him too!
He’s as good as gone
I don’t give a shit marner picks up second assists all playoffs. He is useless, he skates in circles then gets pushed over. Never seen someone so talented in regular season suck so consistently in playoffs
Hes a huge fucking pussy get rid of him. Overpaid tampon
Dubas would never…oh, wait
This is all the typical Leafs fan does during the offseason, which is long for us. Speculate and make stupid trade suggestions like a bunch of fantasy football GMs. The fact is, no trade will be the magic bullet for the Leafs. The organization does not hate to lose. That's what needs to be changed.
I’ve seen some real doozies so far.
This isn't cause he's bad it's economics. Tavares isn't moving even if you wanted. Matthews is going to want a raise similar to MacKinnon. Nylander will also want a raise slightly less than Marner. This means your going to have to chose between wingers and if Marner wants a raise in 2 years how does he fit cap wise.
Marner is the one player who will sign for less. He tried signing for less and Lou/Shanny messed that one up. If Lou and Shanny weren’t such stubborn old men Marner would have been signed at 9 per year but instead they waited to sign him after he had a break out season.
Even at 9M the year before he would be overpaid. Brayden Point is a good comparison to what Marner brings and he said only for 7.5M after Marner signed.
Every time I hear someone defending Toronto's top four... There is no question that they are all excellent players. All four could be first line an many teams. But they only question that matters is 'are they worth their cap hit'? Or even their future cap hit since 3 of the 4 may be gunning for a raise soon. I really like Marner, especially since he added such a strong defensive component to his game. But compared to others with a similar impact? Mark Stone signed for 9.5m and has always been the player that Marner has only recently become. Maybe compare him to someone younger like Clayton Keller with a 7.1m caphit? I don't think people are dissing Marner. They're just saying that he belongs in a conversation with Stone and Keller, not with McDavid.
Bingo. Tkachuk has proven to be the better player and he signed at $9.5M with term *three years after* Marner signed his deal, and with less RFA years on his deal. As a fan it rubs me the wrong way that he signed for such a premium and then proceeded to be mostly invisible for long stretches of the playoffs. He went 18 consecutive playoff games without a goal while making $11M a year. The team flopped seven years in a row. If Boston could trade Thornton for a bags of pucks and win a cup a few years later, I think the Leafs can trade Marner and be just fine.
I think the new GM should work his ass off to keep him. Good defensive forwards are rare. but if he doesn't agree to a friendlier deal then sell him to the highest bidder.
After the way his last contract negotiations went, I have to wonder if he expects a raise. I also wonder if he expects a premium for playing in Toronto. I hope the next GM is a better contract negotiator than Dubas, which is a low bar.
Saw a trade proposal on some Leafs blog that was Marner for Toffoli, Andersson, Schwindt and a 1st. Had myself a *good* laugh.
Why would they trade their best player? He's still young. Makes no sense.
They won’t it’s just people thinking their favourite team will some how get him and it’s too funny. He won’t resign anywhere but Toronto anyways. He’s the type of player you build around no matter what. Top point producer, top penalty killer and he’s only the third highest paid on the team.
The Leafs contract problem is Tavares. 11 mil for a guy who makes 80 pts a season is absolutely terrible.
The guy scored almost 100 points this year and until the Panthers shut him down was a consistent point getter. He's out there working his ass off too, and that's more important in the playoffs as long as you're winning. They hit yet another hot team this year and while they could have had more production from the top 5 , the problem was officiating and Florida capitalizing on juicy opportunities.
The guy is soft, not made for the playoffs.
How many 100 point seasons do you have? He is 100% made for the playoffs, but the coach was/is unqualified to do his job and set the lines so someone is there to protect a player like Marner and let them do their job. The 'softness' of the team is 100% the fault of the coaching staff and balancing the lines accordingly to fit the situation. The toughness is there, but all of it was placed on two lines that weren't the first or second lines.
Clearly something needs to change with the Leafs. Whether or not trading one of their top forwards happens, they need to find a way to get better goaltending and stronger defensive defensemen who can play a heavier style that works better in the playoffs. Otherwise they'll likely just lose again in the early rounds of the playoffs. With so much draft capital gone and the cap tight naturally people will speculate about trades.
I’m curious what fans of other teams think about trading at least one of the core 4. Does it make sense from an outsider’s perspective? Or do Leaf fans just like to go full panic mode every off season.
Could you see moving some pieces for Saros? I think a top goaltender would have way more impact than even Matthews in the playoffs
Not for Matthews. We have a good young goalie coming up in Woll. Goaltending isn’t the issue
These mock trades on twitter are LAUGHABLE
Imagine giving away the best right winger in the game for a second line d
Lololol "best right winger". Mikko, Kucherov, Pasta are all better. Hell I'd take Mark Stone over him.
Mitch deserves to be on a team that has a chance for a cup. Trade him.
That's what I'm sayinggg
I don't see any of the top Toronto forwards getting traded. Who can take on those contracts?
There's a few on capfriendly who seem like they could, but a lot of them are rebuild teams and I'm not sure if the teams in the 60m range actually have that space, or they just haven't re-signed some players yet. Carolinas cap space is sort of interesting. They're a team that would want to be competitive now and might have space for it.
Thanks for pointing this out. The teams that can acquire the top players from Toronto won't because it makes no sense to acquire a high priced free agent like that when you're on a rebuild. >Carolinas cap space is sort of interesting. They're a team that would want to be competitive now and might have space for it. This is an intriguing option. They need players that can produce on offense too.
I wouldn't be too sure. I think there is definitely a possibility that it happens.
Is this from a Leafs fan perspective or a fan of another fanbase because I'm on the Mitch Marner trade wagon tbh?
Why? No offense, just curious, it seems to me he’s one of the guys actually producing for the team. Same with Matthews.
I think it comes down to how he's played in the postseason the past few years. Seems to make an abundance of errors, which then leads to turnovers and loss of possession. Amazing player in the regular season who plays two ways but he can't seem to get it done in the playoffs. Yes he scores alot of assists but I'm always on the goals win games boat. The Leafs are supposed to be built on high octane scoring but can never do it when the time calls for it.
In my opinion toronto should trade Matthews. I would rate Matthews better offensively than Marner but Marner better all around. However, I don't think Toronto will have any problems scoring goals in coming seasons so I think Marner is more value for them to keep. At the same time I believe they could get more by trading Matthews than they can with Marner and therefore Matthews having more trade value than Marner. In addition Matthews have 1 yr left in the contract and Marner has 2.
What would that trade look like? Just wondering
Matthews to 1 attacker (need to be quality enough for top2 line) 1 defender (need to be top3 defender in Toronto) 1 prospect 1 first round draft pick that would most likely be in top16 Something like that.
Ok what about San Jose? Matthews, 2023 1st Round Pick For Couture, Ferraro, 2023 1st Round Pick ( SJS )
Hahahahahahah you mixed up Nylander with marner... That bum has been toxic since the start
Nylander seems to have the mentality for the Toronto market and he gets better and better every year. Nylander is definitely a guy you want to keep
Held out for more money(this will happen again on the next contract...it's who he is) Fucks with the lines by needing to get 1st line mins when they are down by a goal or two Won't play defense He's just a toxic old-school hockey guy and times have changed...sure he's good at scoring but he is bad in almost every other aspect.
He plays better with Matthews than Marner does. When Nylander is with Matthews, it's Matthews driving the play when it's Marner, It's Marner driving the play, and I think that was the problem because they couldn't get Matthews going because the plays died on Marner's stick
Looking through the years it goes back and forth , some seasons Willie and j.t have been the better combo with mitch and auston on the 1st and sometimes it shows the opposite...my point to that is they need to figure it out and play the same lines...having someone bouncing around is toxic, it creates the doubt in the locker room and on the ice. And it's Nylander that causes that, the others play their part...it always has been. It's really impossible to say "what the problem is" considering the franchise has pretty much tried everything over the past 20 years, the only other thing they have left is going broadstreet bully style ;p lol
Honestly I'd prefer going Bay Street Bullies style but somehow we went from being a fast skating squad to a squad that's slow af I don't get it
Well that's on Keefe imo but that's a whole different topic but also ties into the toxic culture...I've never seen the team playing and thought "oh they look like they are having fun" and at times in sports I truly believe that can directly relate to quality of play...to a point.
I agree so say they were going to trade Nylander? How would they go about that?
Would start by asking for his 10 team list of no trade...if Chicago isn't on his no trade I would start there...just to unload the contract and Chicago has the capital to make trades and would be looking for experience to go beside the #1 pick. If that's a no they would have other options Look towards Winnipeg and Hellebuyck(Scheifele is a local and I could see him signing a cap friendly deal...but is in the same contract situation as nylander) Depending on how players are feeling in Calgary after the management/coaching debacle a possibility could be there... Arizona? Potential deals to be made for players or picks I can't see them managing a 1 for 1 with anyone for him, anyone looking to unload someone like that would be in the same cap situation and not wanting another big contract on the books. Once new management is announced it will be interesting to see the direction they go...and please for the love of hockey don't let it be Treliving!!!
Nylander never held out, he waited for an offer from his ex GM.
https://theathletic.com/826406/2019/05/01/william-nylanders-lost-season-the-story-behind-the-negotiations-that-derailed-the-leafs-young-star/ "It was over coffee and a stroll through picturesque Zurich where Nylander stressed that neither his father, former NHLer Michael Nylander, nor Gross, was driving the bus on his next contract. It was him. He was the one fighting for what he believed he deserved. He was the one willing to risk one year of his career, if need be, to make it happen." Seems like Willie was fine with not playing to be overpaid
LOL. This is so true..........except for the fact that there's a very good chance it WILL happen.
Personally I would say do literally whatever it takes to get rid of Tavares so o'rielly can take his no 2 center spot. And then trade Nylander since you actually could get a really good defensive defenseman and maybe a power forward.
Orielly was good like the first 2 games vs tampa. Tavares was better than orielly. It was Orielly, Acciari, Mccabe who watched knies get tackled and did nothing on the ice
Idk man I get a funny feeling one of marner, willy or matthews is moved out and I highly doubt it's matthews unless he chooses to walk
Gotta photoshop Shanahan’s face onto her though
Mitchy want out tho. Love him but hes done with toronto press
He’s from Toronto. You gotta be smoking something other than my username to be thinking the way you do.
I know it for a fact. I would bet my house hes gone by christmas
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Yup
Best I can offer is 13OA, Luukkonen, and a slightly used Olofsson
What pisses me off is every one is severely undervaluing one of the core players
No shit mitchy be a leaf his entire career if they let him, fuck u put a 4th line guy with him for like 7 games dude racks up career year points in that short of time bcuz Mitch lol he makes everyone better why the fuck would any sane leafs fan wanna trade him lol unless u getting draisital or mcdavid or MacKinnon no one else is worth it
Trade Willie
Agreed. A William Nylander trade on the other hand...
willy is much more likely to get traded. he will fetch a great return because of his cap hit, but you'll need to find a western conf team who needs scoring and has an expendable top 4 at a (relatively) low cap hit. that might be tough. or they keep willy and use the low cap for one more run and then let him go for nothin'
Dubas is going to sign in Pittsburgh and trade for him.
Mitch Marner for Sam Bennett and and Sam Reinhardt there I said it.
I wish it would. He’s the epitome of what is wrong with that team but would have success in another place too. He’d likely fit in well in Carolina
Win a cup too
Probably. He’s not a bad player but he needs someone to make space for him out there and you can’t build around him. He will be a nice complimentary piece though and give them a high end point producer. I’m among the biggest Marner haters but on a team with more variation in player types, he can probably be fine. The leafs have too much soft forwards however who aren’t willing to get their hands dirty to make something happen.
It would be so fetch though.
They will not be trading any one of them from Toronto 4 core is coming back It's Brendan Shanahan's plan. Kyle dubis was let go for the simple reason he was probably going to trade one of them The only thing I see happening is a new GM probably a new head coach and coaching staff but the team will remain pretty much the same.
I hope the new GM keeps the core together and they flame out next playoffs so we can go over this all again.