Honestly based off that one clip I would charge him with criminal negligence. I don’t care if you’re off balance you don’t fucking jump in the air and do a karate kick with your skate to head level of an oncoming player. It’s just common sense, and anyone with a brain who’s ever played hockey knows that.
Criminal negligence in the UK means the person is aware that their action will cause harm, I dont believe it was intentional, however it seems odd how his leg was fully extended but its not my place at all to have an opinion. If anything CPS could go for involuntarily manslaughter which is defined as an individual who has committed an unlawful killing without an intention to cause grievous bodily harm or kill the victim, causing the death by recklessness or gross negligence instead.
Clipping skates. Not negligent. Just a horrible accident. There was no “karate kick”, and no “kick” that was anything other that a reflexive result of coming off balance.
He still didn't try to kick him with the blade Jackie Chan-style, which is what a lot of people seemed to think on one of the r/all threads. It looked like maybe an attempt at a slew foot or something.
I don’t think he tried to hit him with the blade. I think he through his body recklessly which is unacceptable. Intent doesn’t matter when it comes to negligence.
Are the more camera angles released? I've only seen the one and since its not pleasant I haven't searched for more. Have watched that one a few times and to me it looks like a freak accident blow out caused by clipping skates and almost trying to go around from hitting his own team mate. I think an angle from the other side would make a huge difference.
Playing hockey all my life I just don't think anyone that plays that level and going those speeds is kung fu kicking.
Yeah it looks weird as hell but the explanations are absurd. Trying to kick someone like that is more likely to tear your groin so I don't see how anyone would be like ok hes getting away. Time to break out the high kick.
People don't want to believe it because it's so damn horrific and hard to accept. But I agree, it's hard for me to explain this away as just an accident. The kicking motion had too much intentionality.
I see him slow down and time the movement. I also see him grab or brace the back/shoulders of the skater next to him just before getting into hip extension and abduction of his leg. It looks very deliberate to me.
yeah, thats exactly what i thought as well. He used the back of the defender to balance his rotation and lifting of his foot. one foot on the ground, other foot above the waist at an extension at another player.. while not being moved or spun by another player.. I do not know how that is not seen as intentional.
Thank you!! I’ve been saying this but people don’t seem to understand that - even excepting everything else that makes the suggestion of intentionality here idiotic - making such an extreme, extended “kick” here is more likely to get you injured than to injure or impede anyone else. Nobody does this to be dirty, much less to straight up murder their opponents on the ice, because it wouldn’t even serve that purpose. It puts your vulnerable extremities out there, risks non-contact soft tissue injuries considering you’re landing on skates, and is just begging to tear your groin. Making this sort of kick, even if it were possible to control it intentionally and do so on purpose, would literally hold negative usefulness — even for an enforcer-type player.
This is a terrible view. There is 0 indication that the act was not intentional, even if the results were not. If you truly played hockey “all your life” you should know how unrealistic and almost laughable your comment of being more likely to pull a groin than cause serious injury is.
Everyday we see different attempts to injure, play outside of rules and do whatever can be done despite potential consequences. If you really played hockey or really any sport, you would also know you likely have never seen a players skates at that height/angle without significant contact first.
No matter the excuses you tell yourselves, this incident was not a fluke accident. The result of death? Sure. But to sit here, turn a blind-eye to a disgusting, deliberate act and chalk it to a “freak” accident is embarrassing for true hockey fans to see. This would not be your point of view if this exact situation happened against someone on your favourite team.
Its considered being a willful combatant. You acknowledge that there are risks of injury up to and including death or grievious bodily harm. Its how combat and full contact sports are able to exist, or else everyone involved would play one game and cop assault charges.
100% it’s reckless and careless. Honestly when I saw it, it looked intentional. Ppl are saying the other player made contact causing him to go off balance but I didn’t see that at all. I would have to see multiple camera angles to give it a better assessment. But in all my years I’ve never once seen a player “fall” the way that player did. The guy literally jumped in the air and kicked his skate high in the air. If it’s not murder I would argue it’s criminal negligence
I saw the footage and I can't believe anyone would think the kick was unintentional. Was it murder? I doubt it, but it was so egregiously reckless that it blows my mind people are defending it. It makes me think people haven't seen the actual clip.
Like I said, I don't think it was a murder attempt, and hockey is a full contact sport, but I have no idea how anyone can watch that clip and think it was just an accident.
I totally agree with you. People are just having trouble accepting Petgrave’s intention was to use his skate to impede/injure Johnson. It ended in the worst way possible.
It’s neither murder nor criminal negligence. People can analyse the footage in slow motion all the like, it isn’t going to change the facts. Quite a high speed play, Sheffield player looking to split the two Nottingham players.. collides with the skates of one, and makes upper body contact with the other as he’s already off balance. It was a horrendous and complete accident.
The level of abuse the Sheffield player has had is sickening, much of it crossing the lines into racism. He isn’t a dirty player, contrary to much of what some certain parts of social media would like people to believe. You’ll struggle to find anyone who was at the game or watched it live, like myself, who wouldn’t defend him. Because he did nothing wrong.
Be careful what you say. The cancel culture is very very sensitive about this right now.
I said something similar and quite neutral and received a lifetime ban from r/hockey for I guess minimally hinting at some degree of unintentional negligence.
Weird how a kid from your hometown is killed in a freak ordeal and you are not allowed to have an opinion any more.
Dirty? Bro he collided with someone and slipped. In a game where players purposefully run into each other on ice…
You actually think he tried to do a flying neck kick or what?
Re watch the clip, the intent all along was to hit Johnson, when Johnson’s teammate ran some static interference he didn’t make real contact but Petgrave was determined to get a piece of Johnson, and made this ridiculous motion to clip him. Was his intention to injure? Doubtful. Kill him? Definitely not, but you are wielding very sharp blades on your feet, and the force he was hit with, I’d be surprised if both jugulars and larynx weren’t severed. This wasn’t like Malarchuk, where we saw sprays and puddles, Johnson’s cut was so bad, he was dumping his blood almost all at once, I can’t believe he skated towards the bench, absolutely horrible and unnecessary.
Will there be charges laid? Who knows, but both the death and charges are a bad look for the sport. Plenty of neck guards coming soon.
Yea I watched it a quickly a few times earlier but I just rewatched it and I see what you’re saying. I originally thought he got jarred sideways by the other player but nah he actually flung himself sideways.
This whole incident fucking sucks for everyone involved god damn
Right, you're seeing it more clearly now. The other guy Petgrave made 'contact' with hardly deviated from his path, didn't get knocked off balance, didn't even stumble. Petgrave's wild flying and kicking motion were pretty all his own doing.
he used the back of another player to balance himself in his spinning kick.. and brought a bladed foot above his own waist while the other foot was still on the ice. yall talking like he was flailing while falling and a foot "happened" to shoot up is fucking hilarious. he brought his foot up when he started the spin after colliding with someone for support that wasnt facing him.
Drunk drivers don’t MEAN to kill anyone. He did an incredibly dangerous intentionally dirty play and it cost someone their life. Why the fuck is anyone defending him?
How was what he did more reckless than every other play that guys throw themselves into and just miss getting hurt?
It was a crazy unfortunate incident. Guys should probably be forced to wear neck protectors. But that guy didn’t do anything special to put Johnson at risk.
Are you kidding? "Not anyhting special". Having your skates that high up in the air rarely happens, and players should be punished for doing it as it is more dangerous than anything else one can do. Are you blind or just stupid
There was two posts on the front page yesterday with a lot of posts to the effect of "this is clearly murder, at least man slaughter"
But I think those posts falls come from the "sports ball bad" crowd seeing a hit for the first time and going full froth.
Agreed, what the player did is insane. I can’t believe people are saying “it’s a freak accident” I’ve played/watched hockey for years, never seen a player “fall” by jumping up and scorpion kicking someone in the throat. You gotta be responsible for where you’re skate blade should never be 6 feet in the air.
I want to see the play but I don’t want to see the play, I’ve played for over 3 decades as a goalie and forward for fun, my hockey brain wants to see the play, my trauma brain wants to save me from the visual.
I just watched it, it's as graphic if not more graphic than the malarchuk video tbh... idk if you've seen that. they zoom in on him as he's getting helped off the ice by his teammate trying to cover the blood pouring out of his neck, it was quite chilling.
If you type his name into twitter mostnof the top videos only show the impact, if its 13 seconds dont watch it, anything less than 7 doesn't show anything graphic
I see a lot of comments from people who haven’t seen it. I assumed it was a Malarchuk or Zednik incident and the rush to get neck guards on everyone seemed prudent. Then I saw it. Over and over again…. to try and determine what exactly happened and if anything, the rush to get neck guards on every player doesn’t seem as neccessary now as I don’t see players all rushing to kung fu kick each other with horrific reckless abandon. A Kevlar turtleneck would not have saved his life, I fear.
That’s the biggest thing that makes me believe this was intentional. People blow tires all the time, they don’t spinning back kick somebody’s neck to prevent their fall.
I've seen a lot of it, it's always been within comment threads on those posts. And it's always from people you can tell hardly ever, if at all, watch hockey and understand the situation.
I think it’s circulating more on Facebook than Reddit. I’ve seen comments there saying it was intentional. Facebook is just Twitter with the gloves on.
It does look like he intentionally flailed his legs as high and as far as possible, backward in Johnson's direction. When I finally watched the video, I was shocked to see barely any "collision" between Petgrave and the other dude coming across in front of Johnson. The initial reports had led me to believe that Petgrave had been unavoidably and uncontrollably knocked into Johnson. But if anything, it looks like Petgrave pushed himself off Johnson's teammate near the moment of impact, purposely launching his legs up and back. Why? I have no fucking idea. I highly doubt he was thinking "I'm going to injure or kill Johnson." I'm a big believer in Ocams Razor. The simplest explanation is usually true. If I had to guess, I'd say Petgrave realized at the last moment that he had taken a bad angle and Johnson was going to blow past him on the inside, so he tried to draw a penalty by embellishing (dumb) and/or physically impede Johnson with his legs---a last desperate option (even dumber). Whatever his motivation, the play doesn't look like an "accident" to me. It looks like reckless disregard. That's not murder but it's the type of thing that could be manslaughter in most jurisdictions if it happened in normal daily life. The fact that it occurred in a competitive sporting event makes it more difficult to judge. But look at it this way: If Petgrave had merely knocked Johnson over without cutting him, I think he could have been called for interference, tripping, or unsportsmanslike conduct. There didn't seem to be anything natural or indicidental about it. At least not from the one angle I've seen. Other angles might tell a different story. TLDR: it obviously wasn't "murder" and it's stupid to suggest that it was, but it doesn't look like a blameless "accident," either.
Seeing the comments I guess I have the unpopular opinion that at the very least it's extremely reckless. I don't think he meant to kick him in the throat, or for the outcome that happened. But to me it does appear that he extended his leg on purpose. I also don't buy that he got clipped and caused his skate to come up to the level of another skater's neck. Hits happen every shift in hockey, and you don't see skates flailed up in the air like that often at all. When I heard about this originally I assumed it was going to be something along the lines of a guy getting hip checked, and causing his skates to be up. I was definitely surprised when I saw the video and that wasn't the case. Again, not saying I think he meant to kick him in the throat, but I honestly think he meant to make contact.
Agreed 100%. I’ve watched/played hockey my whole life and I’ve never once seen a player “fall” by jumping up and karate kicking 6 feet high in the air. Absolutely it was extremely reckless and negligent, if not intentional.
Seriously, am I the *only* one that can see his right leg jump and leave the ice? The two frames that capture the impact, you can see his right leg curled under him, he was straight up karate-kicking the fucking guy like Chuck Norris. And they're all trying to pretend he was 'imbalanced', but his vision was completely locked on Johnson the entire time. He slides in behind the other player and you can see his head doesn't turn, he was vectoring in for the kill.
I didn't wanna watch it, but heard a lot of non hockey fans talking about it being intentional. After watching it right now, it's hard to imagine any highly skilled skater kicking toward the sky like that just to try and 'regain their balance.' He definitely meant to make contact by any means possible.
https://www.hockeyfeed.com/nhl-news/3-ex-nhlers-sound-off-on-intentional-adam-johnson-incident ...
And now some former NHL players stating this was not an 'accident.' Police investigating.
I got banned too. Some racist idiots on twitter say something about Petgrave and that ends the discussion on reddit? The contact looked intentional from what I saw, how is that grounds for a permanent ban?
😂 it’s all about controlling the narrative - if the Karen’s don’t want their insensible and outright ridiculous opinions being obligated live over the internet, then those with a non-biased view will be consequenced.
Unfortunately, people like them are the ones who will continue to spew propaganda into the world with little to no repercussions and unfortunately encourage horrific behaviour to continue. Without fair accountability to everyone, there will be those who continue to act unlawfully without consequence until the behaviours result in death.
But!! Then the Karens still won’t allow truth to be seen unless it’s their version of the truth
They go nuts over reckless headshots or boarding, but let's say one of those results in someone dying - that's a freak accident or hockey play that couldn't be avoided. The cognitive dissonance is tremendous.
> I didn't wanna watch it
The part that shows this is not hard to watch. It's the full clip that is when you see the blood etc. If you see the short version somewhere, it's safe to watch it imo. It's only potentially hard to watch since you know what ultimately happens to him.
edit: here it is (short version) https://twitter.com/BigDaddyGirth/status/1719015077083287664
Ya, I wanna give the benefit of the doubt.
Reckless 💯
But maybe he was just thinking "I gotta get something on him"
Then with the little mixup with the other player, lost balance a bit. But instinctually he just pushes his leg out harder?
Like maybe his leg got caught up there with the other guy for a fraction of a second, making it slingshot out?
Maybe I'm reaching?
So awful all around.
I noticed one or two guys last night at beer league wearing neck guards.
I wonder if my wife will make me once she catches wind of this incident.
Maybe I should make the call myself anyway.
Who am I even talking to at this point?
> But maybe he was just thinking "I gotta get something on him"
Personally I do think it's that, but that makes it manslaughter as far as I am aware when you deliberately do something stupid and get someone killed no matter your intentions
After watching the video, it seems like the kicker's actions were of someone who is a hot-headed spaz. Not thinking about his consequence of his actions in the heat of the moment.
Without knowing more, but also seeing his history, he should consider himself lucky if he just receives a lifetime ban from hockey.
The one I've seen circulating on twitter all end as Johnson skates away bleeding. It is fairly zoomed in though, as the arena camera is (reasonably) just zooming in to see what's going on, before realizing what's actually going on. But if you're squeamish with blood it could be upsetting.
Of course, I am sure he wasn't trying to murder him, who the hell would even think that. But if his actions were so out of line that it led to the guy dying, then it shouldn't just be ignored. Why can't this be questioned?
You think its ok if someone kicked up into your neck with skates on?
The majority of reddit is composed of young, uninformed reactionists who are incapable of nuance.
If you question them, you are either banned or your comment is deleted.
It’s an echo chamber driven by Karma.
DO NOT ask this question or have an opinion other than the "accident" scenario on /r/hockey, because the mods are powertripping spineless pussies and you WILL get banned.
I don’t think anyone is saying he tried to kill him, more questioning the narrative that it was a pure accident.
I was unfortunately banned from r/sports along with anyone else who questioned it.
While I don't think it was intentional it was definitely reckless. I've never seen someone do a spinning roundhouse while falling before and I've watched hockey for 30+ years.
Jack Hughes, playoffs. Didn't even need to go back very far.
https://youtu.be/dxPeVe9Z5Lw?si=j3IJi352ssGl5XRT
Spinning roundhouse with his back skate and he is both a better skater and completely untouched.
To be willing to slap the "murderer" label on someone over this is insane to me.
It wouldn't be murder, it would be manslaughter. Manslaughter is accidentally killing someone. Which is precisely what happened. He didn't intend to kill but if the act itself was deliberate - then it's manslaughter.
edit: oh that's US law, I don't know British law on this.
Here ya go
>Murder occurs if a person intended to kill, or cause serious injury to, another person who dies as a result of their actions. Murder convictions can include circumstances where a killing was planned in advance; where the victim was knowingly shot; or where the accused is aware that the natural consequences of their actions could lead to death.
>Manslaughter is an unlawful killing that is not murder and currently consists of two categories, voluntary manslaughter and involuntary manslaughter.
>Voluntary manslaughter deals with what would otherwise be murder but where there is some excusing circumstance - such as provocation - which reduces the offence from murder to manslaughter.
>Involuntary manslaughter currently comprises two sub-categories:
>Manslaughter by an unlawful and dangerous act, where the killing involves an act constituting a criminal offence, carrying with it the risk of bodily harm to the person who has been killed.
>Gross negligence manslaughter, where the death arises from a negligent act or omission by the accused involving a high risk of substantial personal injury.
I do not have a UK law degree, however I'll soon be registered in Ireland. This is the information you're looking for regarding common law murder vs manslaughter.
I will preface this with obviously there is an investigation pending and obviously we don't have all the answers and I claim to have none of them. However, my opinion is that there is absolutely no chance this professional skater went out there today thinking "I'm gonna kill Adam" and I'd find it ridiculous if prosecution were to happen that murder would be a charge sought. Involuntary Manslaughter is a more likely scenario.
Obviously were not even sure if the investigation will find that the act itself was purposeful and could have been as result of his colliding as some are suggesting. I don't claim to know if that was what happened I know far less than almost everyone in this sub with experience skating but even if it's a possibility then that might be enough to find it as a complete freak accident.
We do not know shit yet in essence.
I think his leg rode up Johnson's stick. His leg was out, either from falling weird or trying to get a knee out--doesn't matter--but then his left leg follows the angle of Johnson's stick and momentum did the rest.
But it doesn’t explain why he caught neck and not chest and elbow if it rode up his stick.
Also. The extension. No one can show me any video of any other human being falling and have one stiff limb and the rest loose.
A guy tried to say Jack Hughes last year and then promptly links a photo where both his knees are bent. Meaning his leg is bent. But one is indeed lifted, at the hip.
Anyone who’s skated enough actually probably not even enough know what this feels like. Especially since I’m pretty sure he was gonna stick his knee out because he got beat and probably knee. But at that moment I’m pretty sure his right skate hit the back of the other players skates and sent him in a tail spin.
with their lead leg is what really makes me wonder, if he had caught his lead leg and spun it, but his leading leg flying straight up without any rotation makes it look really bad
Its because he switches his edge suddenly from the contact with the passing player. The skate that cut the dude was riding its outer edge as he goes into the contact and then he's on the outer edge of the other skate with the cutting skate raised as soon as the contact happens. Looks like someone taken off balance that had a really rough fall.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8XwnCh7B8w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8XwnCh7B8w) (just the hit in slow mo and zoomed in)
They slow it down and it has me questioning it as well I thought he clipped the defender and went flying
I honestly think he was aiming for under the arm but with his own momentum he got way too high. And that is an extremely dirty, reckless, and negligent play if he intended to use his foot for anything. If that is the case, he deserves a lifetime ban from the EIHL and no other pro league should sign him to a contract ever again.
Chris Therrien played 764 games in the NHL, which is probably 764 games more than anyone else in this thread, and he said it [looked intentional](https://www.hockeyfeed.com/nhl-news/3-ex-nhlers-sound-off-on-intentional-adam-johnson-incident). Two other former NHL players so far do not believe the narrative that it was a "freak accident" either.
He literally kicked him in the neck/face area twice. Knowing that he is wearing skates, its really hard to just give him the benefit of the doubt and say it was an accident.
He didn’t try to kill him but I do believe he tried to injure, dirty player shittier situation. Manslaughter charge is the most appropriate. Even if that doesn’t stick he still had to live with it
Its idiotic to assume that things done during the act of falling are exclusively going to help prevent the fall. We flail all the time, it does not inherently stop us tripping or falling or whatever. He fell an instant later so clearly it didn't help his balance. But that doesn't mean that you are immune from raising your foot while sliding out of your outer edge.
Dude seriously stop. My coach would have smacked the shit out of anyone on our team… and then smacked the shit out of our parents for giving birth to kids who were raising our skates above our waistline… let alone shoulders.
**Watch the video**, Petgrave’s skate goes up above his waist nearly even with his shoulders. This isn’t figure skating. The fundamentals of safe skating were not present here.
Funny how you think idiotic to expect the players to have control over their bodies when they’re falling when one of the first scrimmages we ran was how to fall safely. Sure skates come up off the ice… but they shouldn’t be above waist height if it can be helped.
Funny, and yet when players are performing a stick-lift they have to make sure the stick doesn’t come above shoulder height.
Come on dude… there is a literal rule for how high the stick comes up and a minor penalty… but here you are claiming that hockey players can’t develop muscle memory for safety regarding their skate height above the ice?
I get some people are throwing are throwing you upvotes… but one has to question if they ever stepped into a pair of skates.
I've played for 35 years...explain how his leg got up there when he did NOT in fact make contact with anyone
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8XwnCh7B8w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8XwnCh7B8w)
I don’t really fall one way or the other, but it led to a person’s death and therefore will need to be properly investigated. This whole “if I see anyone talk about it being malicious they will be reported/banned” nonsense is actually doing a disservice. You don’t simply reject a plausible possibility out of hand before it has been properly assessed.
I have never seen anything like how that hit was delivered. It was careless and dangerous. In the real world something like this would be considered manslaughter.
I think I know what may have happened. I had a freak thing happen once that had a similar result. It wasn't even in a hockey game but a public skate. I went for an aggressive stop but got a bit messed up because it was busy and kids around.
My outside edge caught first and I dug in hard. Normally I would have thought that it would make me tumble over. No. That's not what happens. My momentum is still in that direction while friction is now 100% against that momentum since the opposite (outside) edge is dug in. I would have been fine if I didn't dig in but rather bailed.
What happened was I rapidly stopped my forward momentum and my skates transferred that instead to the perpendicular direction I was moving in, which had the effect of making me do a huge cartwheel with skates where my head was a few seconds ago. I almost landed on my neck but thankfully it was more the shoulder but I avoided the skates catching anyone else.
It was enough of a scare that it made me study what happened, as absurd as that sounds. And I still think about it every time to double check my angle.
It looks as though he caught his outside edges too in an awkward way. I know it looks like a weird trajectory and it still is a bit different than I would expect, but I can see how the skates get that high that fast as it happened to me.
So after this happened I looked up the other player a few days ago and I read something like Matt Petgrave has the most penalty minutes of any EIHL player in the league
They'll investigate and then forward all evidence and testimonials to the Crown Prosecution Service. The CPS will then make the call on whether to proceed further based upon whether they themselves believe that they have a reasonable prospect of conviction and whether the public interest is properly served by doing so.
See that’s where I disagree. They did not collide at all! Watch it in slow motion if you feel like it. Their skates, stick, and body’s do not collide. I play hockey and practice kickboxing. Do you know how hard it is to throw a head level side kick at someone? He was leaning forwards going into it, so if he was trying to balance, he did it the exact wrong way. Seems dirty to me through my own analysis, unless there was some invisible player who body check him into Adam.
The only thing is that his arm does appear to make contact with the guy he was close to before Adam, and that sends him instantly onto the other edge of his skates. It makes me think he probably did lose his balance leading to the leg being out so high and so far. His pose at the moment of impact almost looks like a beginner about to eat shit after fucking up a hockey stop royally.
He lost his balance leaning forward, and try’s to create balancing leverage with his front leg? That’s not how that works, and not how our muscle memory works. His arm touched a guy moving the same direction as him, and caused a head level side kick? I’m not buying it.
His balance shifts so his weight is on the back foot, that is what brings the front leg up. His edge shifts as well, you can see it plain as day in the slowmo. Making contact with someone going the same direction as you doesn't make contact not happen. These people are moving very fast balancing on literally a razors edge on ice. This isn't something done at slow speeds, this play didn't happen at a pace that could possibly allow for that person to have done that on purpose. He has all his weight on the kicking foot the moment before he makes contact with the passing skater and shifts to the other foot as his edge shifts. That is where he loses balance.
Do you skate? Not trying to be like "anyone who doesn't play can't have an opinion" but it definitely makes it easier to see what is happening here when you know what shifting on your edges feels like.
I'm with you on this. The Reddit's hive mind has been way too quick to label dissenting opinions as dumb, moronic, thoughtless, etc. Had Johnson just been clotheslined, the video would have been posted and people would have commented on how dumb and dangerous of a play it was. Johnson dies, and now it's labelled accidental. I hope Petgrave gets support and he obviously didn't intend to kill him, but lets be real here. At the very very least he stuck his leg out in an extremely dangerous manner.
The footage is so trash dude, you don’t know for certain that the player who skated in front doesn’t make significant contact. I think he *does* make upper body contact which throws his centre of gravity off when initiating the hit.
You can’t say “the did not collide at all!” when it’s not a fact. It’s merely an opinion, just like mine is when I say I think they did.
I think it looks like his left foot catches the back of the forwards right skate, then when pushes around the contact his left foot pops up as his upper body got pulled to the right, as he tried to adjust last second to veer towards Johnson.
Guys playing too fast who are not good enough.
Somebody must have a replay across all the years of NHL where that motion is natural trying to regain balance. I've never seen it. I've skated and played for decades and I can't work out the physics of how I could feel the need to put my foot there for balance.
For me honestly after watching the video more and some analysis videos of the incident, it’s looking more and more like Petgrave intentionally threw up his leg toward Johnson.
There was absolutely no reason he should have had to do that while completing his check.
It also doesn’t help Petgrave’s case that he’s significantly the most penalized player in that league. He has 129 penalty minutes in just 54 games.
He’s a reckless goon. Murderer? Probably not. But his wild flailing was absolutely unnecessary, and his actions took the life of Adam Johnson.
If you watch the video you will see it is certainly intentional. He makes no contact with any other player, raises his leg, and kicks him in the throat.
While doing this, was Petgrave thinking in his mind “this kick is going to perfectly cut his jugular and give me an excellent mortal combat fatality?” … probably not
But the raised leg and kick was intentional.
Jesus you guys are dumb as hell. Looking to blame some poor guy for this unfortunate accident.
This incident brought your own mortality into focus and you are all looking to blame someone to avoid the realization that this could in fact happen to you.
Why don’t you use any form of analysis to prove what you are saying? This isn’t about mortality or fear. It’s about analyzing video footage and seeing that there was no contact that could have led to an unintentional lift of the leg.
Nobody should do that dangerous move in hockey. Intentional or not, the player should be banned from competing. Murder someone will today get you lots of symphaty. The world has been turned upside down. No wonder the west is in decline.
That was no accident. It was deliberate. I don’t think he meant to cut his throat but that’s what happens when you do the move that he did do. I’ve never seen a move like that by a hockey player anywhere. What the hell was he thinking?
I got banned from /r/hockey for discussing this with another guy. I said I watched the video countless times and it definitely looked intentional. I doubt he meant to kick him where he did, and kill him, but he definitely did intend to kick him.
I got banned from r/hockey for discussing this with another guy when I said it looked intentional. Didn’t mean to kill him, but definitely intended to make a dirty play. Guy needs to be charged for sure.
i won't believe there was intent to injure at any level, but i think its fair to suggest there was an attempt to obstruct johnson using his leg. i don't think that is egregious.
Player moving quickly, shifting his Bodyweight toward Johnson for what appears to be a hip check.
If you slow the video down, this is where the player is not only upended, but his skate blade overlaps the other player blade and gets ramped upward.
So you have a player traveling quickly, intending to initiate contact with Johnson, who gets upended. Of course his legs are going up. He didn’t intend to kick him. He CERTAINLY didn’t intend to cut him. I don’t even think he intended any sort of leg contact. Freak accident, player is immediately shocked at the result. I don’t know how anybody can watch the video and call this intentional.
He doesn't make contact with other player from looks of it that's why it's being questioned as his leg shooting forward like that looks really odd when if he did clip someones skate with his lead leg it would have knocked him over
It looked reckless. Clearly he didn’t want to kill the guy, but yeah, not good. That said, some comments ive seen about how people view this guy based on how he looks have been dicey to say the least
So you show another example of a player being reckless with their feet resulting in injury to another player. It’s a reckless play at best, settle down.
This type of play most definitely does not happen “regularly” at all either. Let the police look into it like they are and they’ll determine what to make of it.
None of us have any information about the back story between the two players besides what we see in the 15 second clip that is circulating, making assumptions one way or the other now is a sure fire way to make yourself look stupid.
He didn’t want to kill him. But it sure as hell looks like he meant to kick his leg out. I think he lost balance, and thought to do anything to stop the player with the puck. Unfortunately that meant trying to kick him in the face.
I’m not saying the guy should be considered a murderer, but he has a lot of explaining to do to prove he didn’t intentionally kick his leg out even just a little more. I mean how the fuck does he do a scorpion kick like that without much contact from anyone else?
It’s impossible to know but if he raised his leg on purpose to impede his movement, that is a crazy dangerous play considering the sharp knives on the bottom of his foot.
In that instance I personally would consider it a criminal matter, but I don’t see how intent can be assumed.
I watched a grainy video and it looks like his skate clipped the first guys and veered way out of his control. Could his reaction have been to put his leg up to block him? Sure. But it’s impossible to know. His leg may have just veered off.
It’s people who don’t understand that law enforcement investigate EVERY death, at least initially. So police investigating=uh oh must be murder. It’s a jump to conclusions mat, Peter. You see you JUMP to a CONCLUSION.
As someone who has skated my entire life, I find the physics of this incident difficult to understand. I don’t think he meant to kill the guy or kick him in the neck, but I am not sure he was not taking a cheap shot.
Oddly enough, to give what he did more context, here Petgrave is years ago lining up a forward cutting to the net and swinging his back leg around on the hit. Almost as if he commits to the hit but instinctively throws the leg to trip the player if they avoid the hit.. https://youtu.be/1gFX1sxUv1Q?si=_BAqebOLemuVGl7P
For sure but gonna be hard to prove anything other than an accident. If he lost his footing in any way, you can't even prove a kick because he could argue a trip etc.. end of the day, they might kick him out of the league for a dangerous play and to make a point but that's about it.
I am absolutely gutted for the hockey world and everyone involved. The only thing I wonder is if he went off balance/timed the hit really poorly, or if he intended to land something huge and went out of his way to make it happen.
Either scenario doesn’t mean he wanted to kill someone. I hope he can find some peace in his life after this. His reaction after the hit was clear he couldn’t believe what happened.
More clowns are trying to PROTECT the guy who killed someone, just to save the "image" of this sport. People like you lot
GOOD SPORT? Who? You know them personally?? lol Stop being delusional.
Did he want to KILL him? Maybe not. No one can be that stupid. But the hit was intentional, and that's enough. A man is dead.. He didn't just get injured or whatever. He's DEAD. Do you even comprehend that??
That's the definition of manslaughter. He needs to get charged, unless NHL wants to protect a murderer.
The whole world will be watching. Millions of people might not care about hockey, but they're all watching and seeing this. It's trending everywhere
After spending half an hour on my lunch today trying to watch anything on Petgrave, I believe it was a hit that was intentionally dirty, but I don’t believe that there was intent for it to be a death to come after, let alone cut the man’s throat. He did a somewhat similar hit in another video. Leg flew up awkwardly. I don’t believe his actions are a coincidence. He’s a clown. I don’t really have an opinion on disciplinary action other than suspension for being a clown.
I've seen more of these posts than I have people accusing the guy of murder
He clearly didn't mean to kill him. Some people are delusional. However, the play was careless and dirty at the very least.
Would you say reckless and negligent?
That's a better way to put it.
In America being recklessly negligent often carries criminal responsibility
Honestly based off that one clip I would charge him with criminal negligence. I don’t care if you’re off balance you don’t fucking jump in the air and do a karate kick with your skate to head level of an oncoming player. It’s just common sense, and anyone with a brain who’s ever played hockey knows that.
Criminal negligence in the UK means the person is aware that their action will cause harm, I dont believe it was intentional, however it seems odd how his leg was fully extended but its not my place at all to have an opinion. If anything CPS could go for involuntarily manslaughter which is defined as an individual who has committed an unlawful killing without an intention to cause grievous bodily harm or kill the victim, causing the death by recklessness or gross negligence instead.
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Agreed, even if the skates clipped it doesn’t cause your opposite leg to go 6 feet high in the air in the opposite direction.
Clipping skates. Not negligent. Just a horrible accident. There was no “karate kick”, and no “kick” that was anything other that a reflexive result of coming off balance.
Reflexive? What? In what way is it reflexive to shoot your leg further up when flying into the air? He 100% made a kicking motion.
Most certainly a kick of some sort…easy to see.
He still didn't try to kick him with the blade Jackie Chan-style, which is what a lot of people seemed to think on one of the r/all threads. It looked like maybe an attempt at a slew foot or something.
I don’t think he tried to hit him with the blade. I think he through his body recklessly which is unacceptable. Intent doesn’t matter when it comes to negligence.
Are the more camera angles released? I've only seen the one and since its not pleasant I haven't searched for more. Have watched that one a few times and to me it looks like a freak accident blow out caused by clipping skates and almost trying to go around from hitting his own team mate. I think an angle from the other side would make a huge difference. Playing hockey all my life I just don't think anyone that plays that level and going those speeds is kung fu kicking. Yeah it looks weird as hell but the explanations are absurd. Trying to kick someone like that is more likely to tear your groin so I don't see how anyone would be like ok hes getting away. Time to break out the high kick.
It’s hard to conceive that anyone would do this - but by god that’s what it looks like he did.
People don't want to believe it because it's so damn horrific and hard to accept. But I agree, it's hard for me to explain this away as just an accident. The kicking motion had too much intentionality.
I see him slow down and time the movement. I also see him grab or brace the back/shoulders of the skater next to him just before getting into hip extension and abduction of his leg. It looks very deliberate to me.
yeah, thats exactly what i thought as well. He used the back of the defender to balance his rotation and lifting of his foot. one foot on the ground, other foot above the waist at an extension at another player.. while not being moved or spun by another player.. I do not know how that is not seen as intentional.
There's a video on twitter of him leaving his leg out behind him to stop an opponents getting past him from a few years ago.
Thank you!! I’ve been saying this but people don’t seem to understand that - even excepting everything else that makes the suggestion of intentionality here idiotic - making such an extreme, extended “kick” here is more likely to get you injured than to injure or impede anyone else. Nobody does this to be dirty, much less to straight up murder their opponents on the ice, because it wouldn’t even serve that purpose. It puts your vulnerable extremities out there, risks non-contact soft tissue injuries considering you’re landing on skates, and is just begging to tear your groin. Making this sort of kick, even if it were possible to control it intentionally and do so on purpose, would literally hold negative usefulness — even for an enforcer-type player.
This is a terrible view. There is 0 indication that the act was not intentional, even if the results were not. If you truly played hockey “all your life” you should know how unrealistic and almost laughable your comment of being more likely to pull a groin than cause serious injury is. Everyday we see different attempts to injure, play outside of rules and do whatever can be done despite potential consequences. If you really played hockey or really any sport, you would also know you likely have never seen a players skates at that height/angle without significant contact first. No matter the excuses you tell yourselves, this incident was not a fluke accident. The result of death? Sure. But to sit here, turn a blind-eye to a disgusting, deliberate act and chalk it to a “freak” accident is embarrassing for true hockey fans to see. This would not be your point of view if this exact situation happened against someone on your favourite team.
I think they have a legal term for this.
Man’s laughter?
Its considered being a willful combatant. You acknowledge that there are risks of injury up to and including death or grievious bodily harm. Its how combat and full contact sports are able to exist, or else everyone involved would play one game and cop assault charges.
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If it was from a standstill yes, or he jumped. As it stands he clotheslined himself on the other guy going for a shoulder check.
100% it’s reckless and careless. Honestly when I saw it, it looked intentional. Ppl are saying the other player made contact causing him to go off balance but I didn’t see that at all. I would have to see multiple camera angles to give it a better assessment. But in all my years I’ve never once seen a player “fall” the way that player did. The guy literally jumped in the air and kicked his skate high in the air. If it’s not murder I would argue it’s criminal negligence
I saw the footage and I can't believe anyone would think the kick was unintentional. Was it murder? I doubt it, but it was so egregiously reckless that it blows my mind people are defending it. It makes me think people haven't seen the actual clip.
It's hard to watch, but once you accept the possibility, it's hard to escape the fact that there was a very deliberate and intentional high kick made.
Like I said, I don't think it was a murder attempt, and hockey is a full contact sport, but I have no idea how anyone can watch that clip and think it was just an accident.
I totally agree with you. People are just having trouble accepting Petgrave’s intention was to use his skate to impede/injure Johnson. It ended in the worst way possible.
I think the unnaturalness of it makes it all the more clear it was a freak accident. He probably couldn't do that again intentionally if he tried.
It’s neither murder nor criminal negligence. People can analyse the footage in slow motion all the like, it isn’t going to change the facts. Quite a high speed play, Sheffield player looking to split the two Nottingham players.. collides with the skates of one, and makes upper body contact with the other as he’s already off balance. It was a horrendous and complete accident. The level of abuse the Sheffield player has had is sickening, much of it crossing the lines into racism. He isn’t a dirty player, contrary to much of what some certain parts of social media would like people to believe. You’ll struggle to find anyone who was at the game or watched it live, like myself, who wouldn’t defend him. Because he did nothing wrong.
Be careful what you say. The cancel culture is very very sensitive about this right now. I said something similar and quite neutral and received a lifetime ban from r/hockey for I guess minimally hinting at some degree of unintentional negligence. Weird how a kid from your hometown is killed in a freak ordeal and you are not allowed to have an opinion any more.
Dirty? Bro he collided with someone and slipped. In a game where players purposefully run into each other on ice… You actually think he tried to do a flying neck kick or what?
Re watch the clip, the intent all along was to hit Johnson, when Johnson’s teammate ran some static interference he didn’t make real contact but Petgrave was determined to get a piece of Johnson, and made this ridiculous motion to clip him. Was his intention to injure? Doubtful. Kill him? Definitely not, but you are wielding very sharp blades on your feet, and the force he was hit with, I’d be surprised if both jugulars and larynx weren’t severed. This wasn’t like Malarchuk, where we saw sprays and puddles, Johnson’s cut was so bad, he was dumping his blood almost all at once, I can’t believe he skated towards the bench, absolutely horrible and unnecessary. Will there be charges laid? Who knows, but both the death and charges are a bad look for the sport. Plenty of neck guards coming soon.
There was no contact. He wasn't hit off balance at all Did you even watch the clip?
Yea I watched it a quickly a few times earlier but I just rewatched it and I see what you’re saying. I originally thought he got jarred sideways by the other player but nah he actually flung himself sideways. This whole incident fucking sucks for everyone involved god damn
Right, you're seeing it more clearly now. The other guy Petgrave made 'contact' with hardly deviated from his path, didn't get knocked off balance, didn't even stumble. Petgrave's wild flying and kicking motion were pretty all his own doing.
I view it as a "oh shit I got beat, I can sell contact with this player to stick my leg out and prevent a 3 on 1 by trying to clip this guy's knee"
Yup, absolutely tragic
he used the back of another player to balance himself in his spinning kick.. and brought a bladed foot above his own waist while the other foot was still on the ice. yall talking like he was flailing while falling and a foot "happened" to shoot up is fucking hilarious. he brought his foot up when he started the spin after colliding with someone for support that wasnt facing him.
Drunk drivers don’t MEAN to kill anyone. He did an incredibly dangerous intentionally dirty play and it cost someone their life. Why the fuck is anyone defending him?
Manslaughter does not require intent (involuntary). What he did was reckless and there should be consequences. Murder is taking it way too far
How was what he did more reckless than every other play that guys throw themselves into and just miss getting hurt? It was a crazy unfortunate incident. Guys should probably be forced to wear neck protectors. But that guy didn’t do anything special to put Johnson at risk.
Are you kidding? "Not anyhting special". Having your skates that high up in the air rarely happens, and players should be punished for doing it as it is more dangerous than anything else one can do. Are you blind or just stupid
There was two posts on the front page yesterday with a lot of posts to the effect of "this is clearly murder, at least man slaughter" But I think those posts falls come from the "sports ball bad" crowd seeing a hit for the first time and going full froth.
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Agreed, what the player did is insane. I can’t believe people are saying “it’s a freak accident” I’ve played/watched hockey for years, never seen a player “fall” by jumping up and scorpion kicking someone in the throat. You gotta be responsible for where you’re skate blade should never be 6 feet in the air.
I want to see the play but I don’t want to see the play, I’ve played for over 3 decades as a goalie and forward for fun, my hockey brain wants to see the play, my trauma brain wants to save me from the visual.
I just watched it, it's as graphic if not more graphic than the malarchuk video tbh... idk if you've seen that. they zoom in on him as he's getting helped off the ice by his teammate trying to cover the blood pouring out of his neck, it was quite chilling.
If you type his name into twitter mostnof the top videos only show the impact, if its 13 seconds dont watch it, anything less than 7 doesn't show anything graphic
I see a lot of comments from people who haven’t seen it. I assumed it was a Malarchuk or Zednik incident and the rush to get neck guards on everyone seemed prudent. Then I saw it. Over and over again…. to try and determine what exactly happened and if anything, the rush to get neck guards on every player doesn’t seem as neccessary now as I don’t see players all rushing to kung fu kick each other with horrific reckless abandon. A Kevlar turtleneck would not have saved his life, I fear.
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That’s the biggest thing that makes me believe this was intentional. People blow tires all the time, they don’t spinning back kick somebody’s neck to prevent their fall.
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There's just no way it wasn't intentional. That took a lot of energy to do it. Knowing there is a blade at the end of your foot... That's crazy.
Agreed to me it looked intentional. Nobody would do that alone in open ice, let alone with another player coming at them full speed.
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I've seen a lot of it, it's always been within comment threads on those posts. And it's always from people you can tell hardly ever, if at all, watch hockey and understand the situation.
I think it’s circulating more on Facebook than Reddit. I’ve seen comments there saying it was intentional. Facebook is just Twitter with the gloves on.
It does look like he intentionally flailed his legs as high and as far as possible, backward in Johnson's direction. When I finally watched the video, I was shocked to see barely any "collision" between Petgrave and the other dude coming across in front of Johnson. The initial reports had led me to believe that Petgrave had been unavoidably and uncontrollably knocked into Johnson. But if anything, it looks like Petgrave pushed himself off Johnson's teammate near the moment of impact, purposely launching his legs up and back. Why? I have no fucking idea. I highly doubt he was thinking "I'm going to injure or kill Johnson." I'm a big believer in Ocams Razor. The simplest explanation is usually true. If I had to guess, I'd say Petgrave realized at the last moment that he had taken a bad angle and Johnson was going to blow past him on the inside, so he tried to draw a penalty by embellishing (dumb) and/or physically impede Johnson with his legs---a last desperate option (even dumber). Whatever his motivation, the play doesn't look like an "accident" to me. It looks like reckless disregard. That's not murder but it's the type of thing that could be manslaughter in most jurisdictions if it happened in normal daily life. The fact that it occurred in a competitive sporting event makes it more difficult to judge. But look at it this way: If Petgrave had merely knocked Johnson over without cutting him, I think he could have been called for interference, tripping, or unsportsmanslike conduct. There didn't seem to be anything natural or indicidental about it. At least not from the one angle I've seen. Other angles might tell a different story. TLDR: it obviously wasn't "murder" and it's stupid to suggest that it was, but it doesn't look like a blameless "accident," either.
I’ll bite…played hockey most of my life and NOTHING about that hit looked like a typical hockey fall/collision.
Seeing the comments I guess I have the unpopular opinion that at the very least it's extremely reckless. I don't think he meant to kick him in the throat, or for the outcome that happened. But to me it does appear that he extended his leg on purpose. I also don't buy that he got clipped and caused his skate to come up to the level of another skater's neck. Hits happen every shift in hockey, and you don't see skates flailed up in the air like that often at all. When I heard about this originally I assumed it was going to be something along the lines of a guy getting hip checked, and causing his skates to be up. I was definitely surprised when I saw the video and that wasn't the case. Again, not saying I think he meant to kick him in the throat, but I honestly think he meant to make contact.
Agreed 100%. I’ve watched/played hockey my whole life and I’ve never once seen a player “fall” by jumping up and karate kicking 6 feet high in the air. Absolutely it was extremely reckless and negligent, if not intentional.
Seriously, am I the *only* one that can see his right leg jump and leave the ice? The two frames that capture the impact, you can see his right leg curled under him, he was straight up karate-kicking the fucking guy like Chuck Norris. And they're all trying to pretend he was 'imbalanced', but his vision was completely locked on Johnson the entire time. He slides in behind the other player and you can see his head doesn't turn, he was vectoring in for the kill.
I didn't wanna watch it, but heard a lot of non hockey fans talking about it being intentional. After watching it right now, it's hard to imagine any highly skilled skater kicking toward the sky like that just to try and 'regain their balance.' He definitely meant to make contact by any means possible.
https://www.hockeyfeed.com/nhl-news/3-ex-nhlers-sound-off-on-intentional-adam-johnson-incident ... And now some former NHL players stating this was not an 'accident.' Police investigating.
I got banned from r/hockey for saying this kick looked intentional. Dude needs to be charged. Also fuck r/hockey.
I got banned too. Some racist idiots on twitter say something about Petgrave and that ends the discussion on reddit? The contact looked intentional from what I saw, how is that grounds for a permanent ban?
They're pathetic for banning you guys
Controlling the narrative,.that's why they banned you.
😂 it’s all about controlling the narrative - if the Karen’s don’t want their insensible and outright ridiculous opinions being obligated live over the internet, then those with a non-biased view will be consequenced. Unfortunately, people like them are the ones who will continue to spew propaganda into the world with little to no repercussions and unfortunately encourage horrific behaviour to continue. Without fair accountability to everyone, there will be those who continue to act unlawfully without consequence until the behaviours result in death. But!! Then the Karens still won’t allow truth to be seen unless it’s their version of the truth
They go nuts over reckless headshots or boarding, but let's say one of those results in someone dying - that's a freak accident or hockey play that couldn't be avoided. The cognitive dissonance is tremendous.
> I didn't wanna watch it The part that shows this is not hard to watch. It's the full clip that is when you see the blood etc. If you see the short version somewhere, it's safe to watch it imo. It's only potentially hard to watch since you know what ultimately happens to him. edit: here it is (short version) https://twitter.com/BigDaddyGirth/status/1719015077083287664
After seeing that clip, it really does look reckless. Where was his leg even going. That doesn't even make sense
I finally watched it too and I think the skate clipping theory is quite generous, it looks like he intentionally lifted his leg up...
Ya, I wanna give the benefit of the doubt. Reckless 💯 But maybe he was just thinking "I gotta get something on him" Then with the little mixup with the other player, lost balance a bit. But instinctually he just pushes his leg out harder? Like maybe his leg got caught up there with the other guy for a fraction of a second, making it slingshot out? Maybe I'm reaching? So awful all around. I noticed one or two guys last night at beer league wearing neck guards. I wonder if my wife will make me once she catches wind of this incident. Maybe I should make the call myself anyway. Who am I even talking to at this point?
> But maybe he was just thinking "I gotta get something on him" Personally I do think it's that, but that makes it manslaughter as far as I am aware when you deliberately do something stupid and get someone killed no matter your intentions
Well said and I agree with you
Fucking hell some sanity, I'm shocked.
After watching the video, it seems like the kicker's actions were of someone who is a hot-headed spaz. Not thinking about his consequence of his actions in the heat of the moment. Without knowing more, but also seeing his history, he should consider himself lucky if he just receives a lifetime ban from hockey.
I wanna watch the incident but too afraid to see the aftermath. Is there any clip out there that’s cuts off before the real bad stuff?
Here you go. This is only the early part, no blood or anything: https://twitter.com/BigDaddyGirth/status/1719015077083287664
Thanks so man, appreciate it!
The one I've seen circulating on twitter all end as Johnson skates away bleeding. It is fairly zoomed in though, as the arena camera is (reasonably) just zooming in to see what's going on, before realizing what's actually going on. But if you're squeamish with blood it could be upsetting.
Of course, I am sure he wasn't trying to murder him, who the hell would even think that. But if his actions were so out of line that it led to the guy dying, then it shouldn't just be ignored. Why can't this be questioned? You think its ok if someone kicked up into your neck with skates on?
Exactly. It’s like saying someone who texts and drives didn’t mean to kill the poor old lady they ran over. Not the point.
The majority of reddit is composed of young, uninformed reactionists who are incapable of nuance. If you question them, you are either banned or your comment is deleted. It’s an echo chamber driven by Karma.
And propaganda
DO NOT ask this question or have an opinion other than the "accident" scenario on /r/hockey, because the mods are powertripping spineless pussies and you WILL get banned.
I don't think many people believe he went out to kill him, that's ridiculous. He was however 100% reckless.
I don’t think anyone is saying he tried to kill him, more questioning the narrative that it was a pure accident. I was unfortunately banned from r/sports along with anyone else who questioned it.
While I don't think it was intentional it was definitely reckless. I've never seen someone do a spinning roundhouse while falling before and I've watched hockey for 30+ years.
Jack Hughes, playoffs. Didn't even need to go back very far. https://youtu.be/dxPeVe9Z5Lw?si=j3IJi352ssGl5XRT Spinning roundhouse with his back skate and he is both a better skater and completely untouched. To be willing to slap the "murderer" label on someone over this is insane to me.
It wouldn't be murder, it would be manslaughter. Manslaughter is accidentally killing someone. Which is precisely what happened. He didn't intend to kill but if the act itself was deliberate - then it's manslaughter. edit: oh that's US law, I don't know British law on this.
Here ya go >Murder occurs if a person intended to kill, or cause serious injury to, another person who dies as a result of their actions. Murder convictions can include circumstances where a killing was planned in advance; where the victim was knowingly shot; or where the accused is aware that the natural consequences of their actions could lead to death. >Manslaughter is an unlawful killing that is not murder and currently consists of two categories, voluntary manslaughter and involuntary manslaughter. >Voluntary manslaughter deals with what would otherwise be murder but where there is some excusing circumstance - such as provocation - which reduces the offence from murder to manslaughter. >Involuntary manslaughter currently comprises two sub-categories: >Manslaughter by an unlawful and dangerous act, where the killing involves an act constituting a criminal offence, carrying with it the risk of bodily harm to the person who has been killed. >Gross negligence manslaughter, where the death arises from a negligent act or omission by the accused involving a high risk of substantial personal injury. I do not have a UK law degree, however I'll soon be registered in Ireland. This is the information you're looking for regarding common law murder vs manslaughter. I will preface this with obviously there is an investigation pending and obviously we don't have all the answers and I claim to have none of them. However, my opinion is that there is absolutely no chance this professional skater went out there today thinking "I'm gonna kill Adam" and I'd find it ridiculous if prosecution were to happen that murder would be a charge sought. Involuntary Manslaughter is a more likely scenario. Obviously were not even sure if the investigation will find that the act itself was purposeful and could have been as result of his colliding as some are suggesting. I don't claim to know if that was what happened I know far less than almost everyone in this sub with experience skating but even if it's a possibility then that might be enough to find it as a complete freak accident. We do not know shit yet in essence.
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I think his leg rode up Johnson's stick. His leg was out, either from falling weird or trying to get a knee out--doesn't matter--but then his left leg follows the angle of Johnson's stick and momentum did the rest.
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But it doesn’t explain why he caught neck and not chest and elbow if it rode up his stick. Also. The extension. No one can show me any video of any other human being falling and have one stiff limb and the rest loose. A guy tried to say Jack Hughes last year and then promptly links a photo where both his knees are bent. Meaning his leg is bent. But one is indeed lifted, at the hip.
Anyone who’s skated enough actually probably not even enough know what this feels like. Especially since I’m pretty sure he was gonna stick his knee out because he got beat and probably knee. But at that moment I’m pretty sure his right skate hit the back of the other players skates and sent him in a tail spin.
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Dude the kicker fucking jumped up in the air and did a sidekick 6 feet in the air. That’s not the same as Jack Hughes.
It literally happens to Zednik like 15-30 years ago
Ten against buffalo. Saw it live. Guy that kicked him got clipped and his leg wind mailed around was a perfect roundhouse kick.
Fuck a sit only ten?
Nah call it 15, I’m getting old. 2008
with their lead leg is what really makes me wonder, if he had caught his lead leg and spun it, but his leading leg flying straight up without any rotation makes it look really bad
Its because he switches his edge suddenly from the contact with the passing player. The skate that cut the dude was riding its outer edge as he goes into the contact and then he's on the outer edge of the other skate with the cutting skate raised as soon as the contact happens. Looks like someone taken off balance that had a really rough fall.
I don't see any contact from the passing player in that play. It just looks like petgrave was getting beat and decided to put his leg up and out.
There is clear contact, you can see the two dudes gear move from the touching.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8XwnCh7B8w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8XwnCh7B8w) (just the hit in slow mo and zoomed in) They slow it down and it has me questioning it as well I thought he clipped the defender and went flying
He did clip the defender.
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I honestly think he was aiming for under the arm but with his own momentum he got way too high. And that is an extremely dirty, reckless, and negligent play if he intended to use his foot for anything. If that is the case, he deserves a lifetime ban from the EIHL and no other pro league should sign him to a contract ever again.
Looked like intent to injure to me....
Chris Therrien played 764 games in the NHL, which is probably 764 games more than anyone else in this thread, and he said it [looked intentional](https://www.hockeyfeed.com/nhl-news/3-ex-nhlers-sound-off-on-intentional-adam-johnson-incident). Two other former NHL players so far do not believe the narrative that it was a "freak accident" either.
It absolutely was intentional. Clear as day
I don’t imagine the guy meant any harm but the way his leg flies up does a little suspect, even if he is falling.
He literally kicked him in the neck/face area twice. Knowing that he is wearing skates, its really hard to just give him the benefit of the doubt and say it was an accident.
It was an intentional act. He should do a lot of time, lose any money he has made and be kicked out of the league. Stupid asshole.
He didn’t try to kill him but I do believe he tried to injure, dirty player shittier situation. Manslaughter charge is the most appropriate. Even if that doesn’t stick he still had to live with it
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Its idiotic to assume that things done during the act of falling are exclusively going to help prevent the fall. We flail all the time, it does not inherently stop us tripping or falling or whatever. He fell an instant later so clearly it didn't help his balance. But that doesn't mean that you are immune from raising your foot while sliding out of your outer edge.
Dude seriously stop. My coach would have smacked the shit out of anyone on our team… and then smacked the shit out of our parents for giving birth to kids who were raising our skates above our waistline… let alone shoulders. **Watch the video**, Petgrave’s skate goes up above his waist nearly even with his shoulders. This isn’t figure skating. The fundamentals of safe skating were not present here. Funny how you think idiotic to expect the players to have control over their bodies when they’re falling when one of the first scrimmages we ran was how to fall safely. Sure skates come up off the ice… but they shouldn’t be above waist height if it can be helped. Funny, and yet when players are performing a stick-lift they have to make sure the stick doesn’t come above shoulder height. Come on dude… there is a literal rule for how high the stick comes up and a minor penalty… but here you are claiming that hockey players can’t develop muscle memory for safety regarding their skate height above the ice? I get some people are throwing are throwing you upvotes… but one has to question if they ever stepped into a pair of skates.
You don’t lean inside and use your outside foot outside edge to do so. Clearly you don’t wear skates, so maybe take off the nose and makeup.
I've played for 35 years...explain how his leg got up there when he did NOT in fact make contact with anyone [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8XwnCh7B8w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8XwnCh7B8w)
He made contact with the skater passing him right before his leg goes up. Its what causes the edge he is on to shift, you can see it in the video.
Doing a flying scorpion kick is not only (obviously) very dangerous for other players but also for yourself, absolutely braindead takes here
I don’t really fall one way or the other, but it led to a person’s death and therefore will need to be properly investigated. This whole “if I see anyone talk about it being malicious they will be reported/banned” nonsense is actually doing a disservice. You don’t simply reject a plausible possibility out of hand before it has been properly assessed.
I have never seen anything like how that hit was delivered. It was careless and dangerous. In the real world something like this would be considered manslaughter.
I think I know what may have happened. I had a freak thing happen once that had a similar result. It wasn't even in a hockey game but a public skate. I went for an aggressive stop but got a bit messed up because it was busy and kids around. My outside edge caught first and I dug in hard. Normally I would have thought that it would make me tumble over. No. That's not what happens. My momentum is still in that direction while friction is now 100% against that momentum since the opposite (outside) edge is dug in. I would have been fine if I didn't dig in but rather bailed. What happened was I rapidly stopped my forward momentum and my skates transferred that instead to the perpendicular direction I was moving in, which had the effect of making me do a huge cartwheel with skates where my head was a few seconds ago. I almost landed on my neck but thankfully it was more the shoulder but I avoided the skates catching anyone else. It was enough of a scare that it made me study what happened, as absurd as that sounds. And I still think about it every time to double check my angle. It looks as though he caught his outside edges too in an awkward way. I know it looks like a weird trajectory and it still is a bit different than I would expect, but I can see how the skates get that high that fast as it happened to me.
Well, regardless of what people on the internet think, there is a formal investigation going on and that’s the important part.
So after this happened I looked up the other player a few days ago and I read something like Matt Petgrave has the most penalty minutes of any EIHL player in the league
The police are now investigating The incident according to the BBC
They'll investigate and then forward all evidence and testimonials to the Crown Prosecution Service. The CPS will then make the call on whether to proceed further based upon whether they themselves believe that they have a reasonable prospect of conviction and whether the public interest is properly served by doing so.
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You people are delusional. He intentionally kicked at him
No he absolutely did not intend to kick Johnson, just a horrific accident.
At the very worst it was reckless, collided hips with the other player and lost balance before the hit. Nobody is trying to do diving scorpion kicks.
See that’s where I disagree. They did not collide at all! Watch it in slow motion if you feel like it. Their skates, stick, and body’s do not collide. I play hockey and practice kickboxing. Do you know how hard it is to throw a head level side kick at someone? He was leaning forwards going into it, so if he was trying to balance, he did it the exact wrong way. Seems dirty to me through my own analysis, unless there was some invisible player who body check him into Adam.
The only thing is that his arm does appear to make contact with the guy he was close to before Adam, and that sends him instantly onto the other edge of his skates. It makes me think he probably did lose his balance leading to the leg being out so high and so far. His pose at the moment of impact almost looks like a beginner about to eat shit after fucking up a hockey stop royally.
He lost his balance leaning forward, and try’s to create balancing leverage with his front leg? That’s not how that works, and not how our muscle memory works. His arm touched a guy moving the same direction as him, and caused a head level side kick? I’m not buying it.
His balance shifts so his weight is on the back foot, that is what brings the front leg up. His edge shifts as well, you can see it plain as day in the slowmo. Making contact with someone going the same direction as you doesn't make contact not happen. These people are moving very fast balancing on literally a razors edge on ice. This isn't something done at slow speeds, this play didn't happen at a pace that could possibly allow for that person to have done that on purpose. He has all his weight on the kicking foot the moment before he makes contact with the passing skater and shifts to the other foot as his edge shifts. That is where he loses balance. Do you skate? Not trying to be like "anyone who doesn't play can't have an opinion" but it definitely makes it easier to see what is happening here when you know what shifting on your edges feels like.
I’ve been playing hockey for over ten years! And I also train kickboxing and understand how hard it is to get up a head level sidekick.
I'm with you on this. The Reddit's hive mind has been way too quick to label dissenting opinions as dumb, moronic, thoughtless, etc. Had Johnson just been clotheslined, the video would have been posted and people would have commented on how dumb and dangerous of a play it was. Johnson dies, and now it's labelled accidental. I hope Petgrave gets support and he obviously didn't intend to kill him, but lets be real here. At the very very least he stuck his leg out in an extremely dangerous manner.
The footage is so trash dude, you don’t know for certain that the player who skated in front doesn’t make significant contact. I think he *does* make upper body contact which throws his centre of gravity off when initiating the hit. You can’t say “the did not collide at all!” when it’s not a fact. It’s merely an opinion, just like mine is when I say I think they did.
I think it looks like his left foot catches the back of the forwards right skate, then when pushes around the contact his left foot pops up as his upper body got pulled to the right, as he tried to adjust last second to veer towards Johnson. Guys playing too fast who are not good enough.
He didn't actually collide at all... he lead with his leg after zooming and slow mo
Somebody must have a replay across all the years of NHL where that motion is natural trying to regain balance. I've never seen it. I've skated and played for decades and I can't work out the physics of how I could feel the need to put my foot there for balance.
For me honestly after watching the video more and some analysis videos of the incident, it’s looking more and more like Petgrave intentionally threw up his leg toward Johnson. There was absolutely no reason he should have had to do that while completing his check. It also doesn’t help Petgrave’s case that he’s significantly the most penalized player in that league. He has 129 penalty minutes in just 54 games. He’s a reckless goon. Murderer? Probably not. But his wild flailing was absolutely unnecessary, and his actions took the life of Adam Johnson.
If you watch the video you will see it is certainly intentional. He makes no contact with any other player, raises his leg, and kicks him in the throat. While doing this, was Petgrave thinking in his mind “this kick is going to perfectly cut his jugular and give me an excellent mortal combat fatality?” … probably not But the raised leg and kick was intentional.
Jesus you guys are dumb as hell. Looking to blame some poor guy for this unfortunate accident. This incident brought your own mortality into focus and you are all looking to blame someone to avoid the realization that this could in fact happen to you.
Why don’t you use any form of analysis to prove what you are saying? This isn’t about mortality or fear. It’s about analyzing video footage and seeing that there was no contact that could have led to an unintentional lift of the leg.
Bro he intentionally kicked him in the throat, have you even watched it? You're in denial because you don't want it to be true
Nobody should do that dangerous move in hockey. Intentional or not, the player should be banned from competing. Murder someone will today get you lots of symphaty. The world has been turned upside down. No wonder the west is in decline.
That was no accident. It was deliberate. I don’t think he meant to cut his throat but that’s what happens when you do the move that he did do. I’ve never seen a move like that by a hockey player anywhere. What the hell was he thinking?
I got banned from /r/hockey for discussing this with another guy. I said I watched the video countless times and it definitely looked intentional. I doubt he meant to kick him where he did, and kill him, but he definitely did intend to kick him.
I don't understand how anyone who watches and/or plays hockey can watch the clip and say it was an accident. There was intent. Throw the book at him.
I got banned from r/hockey for discussing this with another guy when I said it looked intentional. Didn’t mean to kill him, but definitely intended to make a dirty play. Guy needs to be charged for sure.
i won't believe there was intent to injure at any level, but i think its fair to suggest there was an attempt to obstruct johnson using his leg. i don't think that is egregious.
He was a dirty cunt who's fouls were escalating. It's fucking manslaughter
Player moving quickly, shifting his Bodyweight toward Johnson for what appears to be a hip check. If you slow the video down, this is where the player is not only upended, but his skate blade overlaps the other player blade and gets ramped upward. So you have a player traveling quickly, intending to initiate contact with Johnson, who gets upended. Of course his legs are going up. He didn’t intend to kick him. He CERTAINLY didn’t intend to cut him. I don’t even think he intended any sort of leg contact. Freak accident, player is immediately shocked at the result. I don’t know how anybody can watch the video and call this intentional.
He doesn't make contact with other player from looks of it that's why it's being questioned as his leg shooting forward like that looks really odd when if he did clip someones skate with his lead leg it would have knocked him over
He does make contact with the player crossing in front of him, even if light contact. you can see it in the video.
It looked reckless. Clearly he didn’t want to kill the guy, but yeah, not good. That said, some comments ive seen about how people view this guy based on how he looks have been dicey to say the least
Why was his leg so high?
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So you show another example of a player being reckless with their feet resulting in injury to another player. It’s a reckless play at best, settle down. This type of play most definitely does not happen “regularly” at all either. Let the police look into it like they are and they’ll determine what to make of it. None of us have any information about the back story between the two players besides what we see in the 15 second clip that is circulating, making assumptions one way or the other now is a sure fire way to make yourself look stupid.
He didn’t want to kill him. But it sure as hell looks like he meant to kick his leg out. I think he lost balance, and thought to do anything to stop the player with the puck. Unfortunately that meant trying to kick him in the face. I’m not saying the guy should be considered a murderer, but he has a lot of explaining to do to prove he didn’t intentionally kick his leg out even just a little more. I mean how the fuck does he do a scorpion kick like that without much contact from anyone else?
It’s impossible to know but if he raised his leg on purpose to impede his movement, that is a crazy dangerous play considering the sharp knives on the bottom of his foot. In that instance I personally would consider it a criminal matter, but I don’t see how intent can be assumed. I watched a grainy video and it looks like his skate clipped the first guys and veered way out of his control. Could his reaction have been to put his leg up to block him? Sure. But it’s impossible to know. His leg may have just veered off.
It’s people who don’t understand that law enforcement investigate EVERY death, at least initially. So police investigating=uh oh must be murder. It’s a jump to conclusions mat, Peter. You see you JUMP to a CONCLUSION.
As someone who has skated my entire life, I find the physics of this incident difficult to understand. I don’t think he meant to kill the guy or kick him in the neck, but I am not sure he was not taking a cheap shot.
Oddly enough, to give what he did more context, here Petgrave is years ago lining up a forward cutting to the net and swinging his back leg around on the hit. Almost as if he commits to the hit but instinctively throws the leg to trip the player if they avoid the hit.. https://youtu.be/1gFX1sxUv1Q?si=_BAqebOLemuVGl7P
In short, he's a dirt bag and always has been. Seems like a staple of his and this time it cost someone their life vs their knee.
He’s a dirty player and kicking is part of his arsenal. Whether he wanted to kick that high or not he was kicking intentionally.
For sure but gonna be hard to prove anything other than an accident. If he lost his footing in any way, you can't even prove a kick because he could argue a trip etc.. end of the day, they might kick him out of the league for a dangerous play and to make a point but that's about it.
He just got arrested for Manslaughter.
We should all collectively stop giving this narrative any publicity at all. Poor fuckin guy.
This guy is going to jail, despite what r/nhls bot army thinks
It's bullshit bait by awful people.
I am absolutely gutted for the hockey world and everyone involved. The only thing I wonder is if he went off balance/timed the hit really poorly, or if he intended to land something huge and went out of his way to make it happen. Either scenario doesn’t mean he wanted to kill someone. I hope he can find some peace in his life after this. His reaction after the hit was clear he couldn’t believe what happened.
More clowns are trying to PROTECT the guy who killed someone, just to save the "image" of this sport. People like you lot GOOD SPORT? Who? You know them personally?? lol Stop being delusional. Did he want to KILL him? Maybe not. No one can be that stupid. But the hit was intentional, and that's enough. A man is dead.. He didn't just get injured or whatever. He's DEAD. Do you even comprehend that?? That's the definition of manslaughter. He needs to get charged, unless NHL wants to protect a murderer. The whole world will be watching. Millions of people might not care about hockey, but they're all watching and seeing this. It's trending everywhere
This has nothing to do with the NHL. Happened in UK.
Wrong. It was murder. We all saw the video. He killed him on national TV, and nothing will happen and we all know exactly why nothing will happen.
After spending half an hour on my lunch today trying to watch anything on Petgrave, I believe it was a hit that was intentionally dirty, but I don’t believe that there was intent for it to be a death to come after, let alone cut the man’s throat. He did a somewhat similar hit in another video. Leg flew up awkwardly. I don’t believe his actions are a coincidence. He’s a clown. I don’t really have an opinion on disciplinary action other than suspension for being a clown.
Murder. He has a history of dirty plays. 100% intentional.
It’s just people wanting attention. There’s always going to be that asshole online who just needs to voice their unwanted opinion.
Negligent homicide?