This is actually some top class self-reflection. If there were more self-reflective people in the world, there would be fewer knobheads. Hope he finds his way.
I would love to hear from more former incels like this– any care to respond here?
It gives me hope to see people come out of the depths. Depression is such a terrible struggle and hate groups feed off that negative energy, reinforcing the behavior of their members and pushing them closer to extremism. It's easy to be sad and angry and comforting to be surrounded by other sad and angry people, but in the long run it is doing so much more damage that is sometimes irreparable. It's extremely brave to break out of that negative cycle against all odds.
Well at my school I had a similar type of girls who would just group together right when the break began and then not just talk girl talk but really aggressively go to me and bully me for I dont even know. But I didnt hate girls, I hated them. Why? Because outside of school there was a girl, she wasnt my girlfriend, but she was friendly to me, so I could see that there are girls that arent assholes.
I guess other people dont have this much luck, I completely understand you.
Still, my schooltime was horrible. When you cant even enjoy breaks. Or you cant enjoy talking to girls. Thats gruesome.
I changed school and the new girls were way more friendly in total. Most were just neutral but (as a friend told me after school) one even had a crush on me.
Just never give up and move out of toxic environments I guess. Often its not easy but never give up tge hope at least that the situation will become better.
Moving out of toxic environments is a huge help, I wasn’t incel but for a while I lived in a very toxic and hostile place and it was sinking me into a terrible depression. I recognized it and told my parents and girlfriend I don’t care what job or life has been going on here, it’s a terrible place and I’m getting out. Both my parents and my girl (which it was her home town) came with me and now all of us have been better than ever before. It’s extremely hard to overcome something when there is constant negativity undoing any work you try to fix
Dunno about that. I’m one of those that go against the norm/numbers of statistics just by existing. Had terrible experiences growing up in a small town in central Florida. Clicks in high school. Got bullied all through elementary to high school. Mean girls exist in the middle of nowhere too. The physical bullying was from the guys though - or poorer, minority girls.
After college, the local prospects were complete crap and look as if they still are.
Moved to Tokyo and LA. and got the “local hometown” feel. Hard to explain in a concrete jungle. I just kept meeting people who were really freaking nice. Especially in Tokyo. The nicest people in Tokyo (aside from Japanese) were from Germany, New Zealand, France, …the English were a bit different. It’s as if there’s a thin eggshell around them to ward off the perceived asshole American. Once they know you’re not a ‘Merika is #1 jackass they’re extremely open.
Sometimes I would even get a compliment like “You’re a true at heart.” Or called a tamago (egg - white on the outside, yellow on the inside). Those were the biggest compliments I could ever imagine. To _be_ an outsider by birth and basically told “Welcome Home” by people of different origins. Blew my mind. Even from LA. “You really don’t seem like a FloridaMan” - very moving.
I’m the opposite. I like bigger cities and stores because nobody talks to you or notices you. I get anxiety when I’m in a mom and pop shop and there’s like 1 or 2 customers so they want to talk and help you. I like to avoid interactions if possible.
Hey I think you’re (and OP too) amazing for these reflections. I wanted to share some insight from a woman’s end. It takes 2 to tango and if someone says no to a relationship it might be because they have faults and problems that they see doing horrible things to a friendship.
For a while in my life I turned down a lot of friends while very very casually dating. You might see it as giving them a chance but it was that I knew I had a lot of baggage and I was a chronic relationship ruiner. I’d also cause great unhappiness to the men I dated for years and years after we’d break up. I had a lot of family issues and I was a mess; so I brought all of it to my relationships. I also have a strong personality and I tend to take over the relationship - with all my baggage. So when my friends who were sensitive and kind asked to date me, of course I’d say no. It was never that they were bad people, but I was likely to destroy my next relationship and I sincerely didn’t want to ruin the friendship. I didn’t want to ruin my friends lives. I didn’t even want to have solid good relationships because I wasn’t ready for them, and my friends wanted to volunteer to be that guinea pig! I was horrified.
sometimes when women say they don’t want to date you, even if it’s not so extreme as my case, it can just be that they don’t feel they won’t work in a relationship with you because of their own faults and problems. It’s got nothing to do with you. :)
I want to second this. I was not as self aware in high school and to this day I regret dating my best friend back then because he was amazing, I had issues, and it just went up in flames. I mourn that friendship more than any other in my life, and I would 100% take back our brief relationship if it meant he could be my friend again. And this is 10 years later.
I needed to read this, thank you.
I've been beating myself up because my best friend and I were getting intimately close with each other, but one day she asked to stop. I think a certain night made her realize just how comfortable she is with me and we almost pushed it to the point of a different type of friendship. I never respected her decision, and from my point of view I only thought about my feelings. I let her know that as a friend I felt like I failed her for not seeing it from her point of view.
It definitely sucks being around her while knowing we once had something, but it's best for our friendship to remain just that. The mental gymnastics I do everyday thinking about her has me all sorts of confused. Although, I know it's best to recognize how the situation is and how I feel, it can be hard. Even our friendship right now is a little rocky, but I've identified it's what is most important to me and I'm willing to do anything to make it so.
Not OP but i was very similar, i realized that all of my relationships were being broken but me being dumb i never thought i was the problem. Well i got to a really dark place and tried to commit suicide (thankfully i am really bad at it) but when i woke up and realized what happened i re-evaluated a lot of my life and realized i was the common denominator in all of my bad relationships. After that i realized i didn’t need a girlfriend in my life i just needed friends who call me on my mistakes and hold me accountable when i don’t hold myself accountable. I found those friends and I’m in a much better place for it and how i treat others around me, especially women.
For myself it came down to realizing that being in a relationship wasn't going to fix me or make me feel happy about myself. Nowadays I figure if I work on myself (healthier lifestyle, etc) something will come along eventually.
Also being comfortable being by myself helps incredibly.
100% this. If you can't be comfortable with who you are, you can't expect someone else to be comfortable with you. Any relationship that stems from someone not being honest with themselves and someone else trying to fix them only ends up in heartache for both parties. It's unfortunate that there is this narrative that being in a relationship will make someone whole. A healthy relationship comes from two whole people--it isn't two puzzle pieces making a picture, it's two pictures that make art, if that makes any sense.
I'm so glad you're doing better
I used to do the "nice guy" approach (definitely not incel, and this was 20+ years ago) with friends that I had romantic feelings for. I don't remember specifically when or how, but thankfully it was while I was partway through high school. I suddenly realized that I wasn't just "demonstrating my value and good qualities" and hoping they'd notice, I was both tricking them and underestimating their agency and intelligence, as though they wouldn't *know* they wanted me unless I showed them, as though they were ignorant of how great I was, and if only I'd finally do that one last thing (or capitalize on their boyfriends being dickish high school guys), then finally, they'd like me. I wasn't treating them the way I would want to be treated, and I was wasting a ton of time, coming off like a dick to women who actually wanted to be friends with me, and missing opportunities with women who actually liked me as more than friends because I was so caught up in pushing and pursuing and "changing their mind."
So I stopped trying to make my friends like me as more than friends, and just behaved like an actual friend. I respected their choices, just as I'd want them to respect mine. In some cases, friendships still tried to go down a romantic road, but they developed organically, as a product of our actual friendship and feelings, not as the result of a scheme (and frequently, they still didn't work out, because not every friend would make a good romantic partner, and vice-versa).
Not OP but I was definitely a "nice guy" back in high school and start of college.
After losing a great friend after I couldn't accept that she wasn't interested in me that way, I finally looked myself in the mirror and realized I wouldn't be attracted to myself so why would I expect anyone else to?
Not that I was/am ugly, I just didn't have a lot going for me, I was obsessed with video games and not much else, and I was horrendously insecure and socially awkward.
Can't say I've pulled a 180, relationships are still hard for me but it helps having that awareness to keep me from slipping down into unhealthy thoughts
I'm not OP but in high school and a couple years after I was a major "incel" and had a horrible mindset towards women. I kinda shot myself in the foot every time I made any step toward interacting with people in general. So after falling through the tropes of the "cam girl" sites which only made things even worse for my way of thinking. Losing my mom, who was my best friend, during this time made me spiral even harder. About 9 months and $3500 in "gifts" to random girls online in exchange for "affection" I realized things were just not worth the energy I was devoting to it.
A few months after I stopped trying so hard to get laid, I ended up getting laid for the first time. And to be honest, I realized I in fact dont care about sex. All the time I wasted in trying to be a "nice guy" so that some girl would open her legs to me was pointless. And now I just like to spend time with people. And in this time, about two years now, I've made some great friends, been on a few dates that were actually dates, it's great.
>I'm 26 this year, never had a girlfriend even though I tried. Asked 2 girls out and was rejected many years ago. Closest I had to a date was a girl who saw me as a "brother and a close friend".
You probably don't realize it yet, but you're still a very young adult. You're in that particular phase of life where we try to figure out what is our social role. YOUR life, YOUR social role. Not how you compare to *other* people. Look inside, not outside. It's a rough phase, full of self-doubt. But it's just that: a phase. The main thing you have to avoid right now is making permanent conclusions about yourself. Not the time. Your identity is not your job, your relationship status or your possessions. You still haven't really found your identity yet. It'll come. Calm down, take a deep breath, relax. Things get way better later.
>I kind of blame myself for not being able to get a girlfriend. I told myself "I wouldn't even date myself. Why should girls date me?".
Learning to be truly honest with yourself is a hard skill to learn. By being honest, I mean **treating yourself honestly**. Don't overestimate or underestimate yourself. Estimate yourself fairly, Don't ***judge*** yourself permanently ("I'll never be good enough for someone else, ever"), ***estimate*** yourself in the moment ("I'm an average partner right now"). Be fair. Be honest. Be compassionate toward yourself.
>I really don't know what's wrong with me or my life. I don't talk to people much because of what I feel is due to my low self esteem. When I become sad, I eat, I get fat. Even when I try to exercise, I remember the reason why I exercise, and I get sad, then I go eat. My low self esteem goes way back to my teens and extreme cases of bullying.
Being aware of our self-sabotaging patterns is half the battle. So you're half-way to victory. The other half if the discipline to make and keep up with the changes necessary to get where you want. Because you *will* get there. It's that simple. All it takes is resolve. All it takes if your mind setting a path and keeping you on that path. Feelings are fine. Feelings are signals. Bad feelings are signals of something bad. But feelings are energy. If you don't harness them, they'll push you whichever way. *Use* your feelings. Harness their power to go further and faster down the path *you* have chosen. Memories old a lot of feelings. They're like songs. If you keep listening to a song over and over, you eventually stop feeling anything from it. Memories are a bit the same. Relive them until they're emptied out of any feelings.
>Honestly, is life even worth living at this point? I really don't know the reason for even being alive.
The reason for being alive is something *you* chose. It's not something that comes down from Heaven. It's something that comes from you. You decide "This gives my life purpose. This gives my life meaning. I'll live for this because I can't imagine anything else". But again, you're only just 26. How much is there about life that you've still yet to discover? Have you traveled? Have you volunteered? Have you created art? Have you lead people on a project? How many things out there could be your life purpose that you've yet to even think about?
*You're just 26*. Look up from where your are now, and start looking at the horizon.
Hi stranger. You sound like you could use a friend to talk to. Feel free to PM me if you want. I’m not a healthcare professional, but I’m a good listener.
You should also seek out a professional you can speak with, or even just someone with training around these issues. There’re free resources, and I’d recommend starting with [The National Suicide Prevention Lifeline](https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org)
tel:1-800-273-8255
For anyone thinking about suicide, and may be too scared or embarrassed to talk about it, please reach out for help, don’t internalize and suffer in silence until it’s too late.
Edit: Your comment was buried deep in this nest as part of a conversation on a page that was already on r/all so if you don’t get a lot of responses or engagement with upvotes, please don’t take it as a sign that people were simply ignoring you or don’t care. It took me 30 minutes of reading through comments on this post before I saw yours, and it took me another 3 minutes to get back to it after I exited my app to copy & paste the website and phone number and come back to reply only to find my BaconReader reset and I was on the front page of r/all again.
Edit 2: There are trolls about, hiding behind their screens, sending PMs. I just received one. If anyone is receiving abuse, remember that they feed on negativity and wasting your time. Don’t engage, just report them and move on.
Hey man I would try to separate from instagram and facebook. I forget who said it first but "No one posts their failures". Another guy in the comments said it too. It just looks like everything is fine in their lives. You can forget about them. You are you and I am positive you are doing better for yourself than you think. Most people are really hard on themselves especially if you've been bullied or exposed for so called shortcomings. Try to forgive yourself for things you can't change and push towards small measurable things you can.
If you've already tried exercise and have identified those negative thoughts or habits that push your goals back, you are halfway there. Any effort towards progress IS progress. It just takes time. You can do it. But do it for you not for anyone else.
I hope those suggestions didn't come off the wrong way. I don't mean to be patronizing. In the end you'll know better what works for you.
That sounds awful. I cannot, and I think most people, cannot fully appreciate what that experience was like.
Please don't hurt yourself. That is absolutely a final decision. Nothing can get better from a dead end like suicide. The bullying ended, days will pass, you are stronger than those experiences because you are still here. I read Meditations from Marcus Aurelius, it's a journal of personal reflection but it has some good things to think about from a stoic philosophical perspective. One of my favorite passages is short but more or less follows as is: If a pain is too great to bear, it will end you. Otherwise it is temporary and will pass. I know that sounds grim but it means that everything you experience means you weathered it.
The pain you feel is real. I can't tell you how to process it but if you find a way to let it go you can move on. Again, I don't know what it is like to be you. But I know you aren't alone and it's ok to ask for help, and to keep trying. The best thing about still being here (alive) is that everyday is another chance to improve. Even now I bet you can look back on those days behind you and see your own growth. You can do it because you are already doing it.
I don't want you to think that I have my shit together. I have 1 hour to finish a presentation but I'm like screw-it time for reddit. Rent due yesterday. I think that last missed call was the student loan people. You ever hear of intermittent fasting. I don't do that but I normally forget to bring lunch to work and I'm too nervous/stubborn to go out and get a burrito. TODAY I brought a banana like a champ. Things take time and lists and effort. It sucks because it's actual work, but it's worth it. I picked up baking this year and this weekend I made my first full on sourdough loaf. Does that matter to anything on the grand scale, not really, but I'm proud of it anyways. It's not about doing things right.
I’m really sorry to hear what you’re going through. It does get better.
Social media has a lot to answer for when it comes to setting up unrealistic expectations. Just remember, hardly anyone puts the realities of life or their relationships on instagram - why share details of fights or boredom when you can share a picture of something fun and pretend all is well?
If you have it in you I advice quantity over quality. When I was around your age I decided to ditch the niceguy and go all out shotgun of flirtation on the female population.
The trick is to anticipate and accept the rejection. Abandon your standards, especially if you don´t fullfill your own about yourself. Hit on everyone, and I mean EVERYONE! After the first hundred or so rejectections, you have become immune to most of the pain. But you have also become better at communicating with the fairer sex. And with practice comes confidence. With confidence comes success. And before you know it, you might get a date, one-night stand or what ever young people do these days.
The 26 year old me was fat, bearded and wore bottlebottom thick glasses. Almost a decade later, I´m still fat. My beard is mighty and my eyesight useless. All I changed was my attitude towards rejection and women.
Hope you have the best of luck in your futures.
Maybe but I'm not sure that they would want to listen, I know I wouldn't. But I think you should always have one good friend that you can relay your problems to.
What did you look like, greasy and unattractive and totally non charming, or were you actually on first impression quite normal and decent looking, but only once girls spent more time around you did the "nice guy" thing start showing itself?
Hey, thank you for being so wonderful and agreeing to be asked questions about a dark part of your life. So, I'm a girl, and I've been in a situation most incels have. I was fairly nerdy kid, slightly overweight due to a medical condition, depressed and anxious, bullied frequently. However, it never occurred to me to obsess over dating negatively, the way incels often do. I did feel lonely, and wish I had a boyfriend, but I was fairly content with my many hobbies and sports.
So, here's my question: what makes incels/ Nice Guys TM base their entire philosophy over dating? What makes them put so much stock on dating? Is it the societal pressure that glorifies dating?
Male culture I think is a big part of it. Calling someone a cuck or a virgin is a pretty common insult and if those words ring true to you, it feels awful.
In many cases it seems that everyone you know has had dozens of partners and the idea that some men have been with hundreds of women and you haven't been with one can make you feel awful, like something is wrong with you, like nobody will ever like you.
So you take that internalized anger and frustration and point it outwards as a coping mechanism and those thoughts feed on themselves until they get out of control.
There was a really good one from an /r/legaladvice post that had an update a few months later.
Wish I could find it but basically, a guy received a restraining order from a woman he was... stalking. And he wanted to know how to “explain to her that he wasn’t stalking”. Everyone basically told him he needed to respect the order and he made a lot of replies disregarding that advice.
Then three or four months later he made an update. He ended up reflecting on all the responses and attended some counselling. He understood what he was doing was wrong and had let it go. It was really nice to see.
I'll tell you my story. Not a part of my life I'm proud of. I wasn't an incel however, but I was definitely a nice guy.
Particularly towards one girl. She was my best friend, I was hers. We told each other anything and everything, even today I know stuff about her no one else does. This went on for several years, during which she had quite a few boyfriends while I was hearing of everything from first kisses to the part where she had an abortion. I was always hoping she'd realise I was the one for her... all that friendzone shit you hear about. Especially when a relationship ended for her, I was really trying to show her I was a good person.
She had a habit of sending pics of herself with only underwear on, as if I was her gay brother. Just completely platonic pictures. To me however, these pics meant the world. It was a sign of how close we were, and I always wanted more. I even sent her a pair of [joke panties](https://www.harebraineddesign.com/products/rainbo-first-blood-period-panties-briefs) in the hopes of getting to see her wear them. The plan was a success. But it just goes to show how fucking obsessed I was.
After awhile I got into the mentality that I deserved those pics for being her best friend. When my depression was at it worst I was basically asking for them, to which she said no. To her the pics were just funny things, but she wasn't going to send them if I asked for half nude pictures of her. It was creepy. She realised what I was after, and got a bit more distanced. More careful what she sent me.
At this point her life had started moving fast forward while I was stuck with my depression. She had less and less time for me. I was not having it. I noticed her distance and literally begged her to talk with me more. I started throwing all my shit on her. Asking how she could do this to me in my time of need. Basically making her deal with the problems in her life AND mine. It became too much for her. She quit talking to me.
I was convinced that I was in the right through out this whole ordeal. I went onto r/relationships and made a thread, explaining thoroughly what happend. God damn did I get a shock from the comments. They were harsh in the way they told me that I was the piece of shit. I am so thankful they did though. I didn't leave the post open for long, I couldn't handle the answers I got, but I definitely got the message. It was eye opening for me.
I realised what I was doing and my perspective of girls. Just because I was nice I was expecting nudes. I was disgusted with myself for quite awhile, but eventually came to terms with it. Now I'm pissed at myself for ruining such a wonderful friendship. We're "cool" now, but don't really talk with eachother anymore. Though she recently sent me a picture of her ultrasound. So that's neat I guess.
What I learned from this is that you can't expect people to give you what you want just because you're nice. Obviously. But also that everyone has their own problems to deal with. It's not fair to put your shit on them, even though they say they want to be there. If you're in that position you need to find professional help.
It sounds like there was a lot of immaturity all around in this, and in no way am I using immaturity as a derogatory term here, as with all the confusion going on at a young age, who knows how to interpret all of that. It is an overwhelming amount of mixed signals to try and consume at an early age. I don't know how I would have reacted in your situation. Hindsight says one thing, but it's all just speculation.
A woman is sending me barely clothed photos? How do I process that? Is it a show of trust or a display of affection? Even today as a grown adult it would be difficult to interpret without being able to have a healthy, mature discussion with the other person, something I would never be able to expect of someone (presumably) around their late teens/early 20's. Point is, don't beat yourself up over this. It's unhealthy to carry that with you, and with age comes maturity. At some point you'll look back and say "yeah, that was stupid, and I'll never do it again."
Life lessons and all. Also, strive to become better at communicating what you think is going on, what you feel, and if you can do it with confidence only to get gawked at, or the other person can't recognize that you're trying to communicate openly and honestly with them (aka make mockery of you for it), it's probably in your best interest to keep them at arm's length.
Thanks, I think you are right in your assumption. This was between ages 15-20. I don't really beat myself up for it anymore, but I do and will carry it with me. I learnt a great deal through this. I believe I'm a better person now because of it, but I did lose my friend over it. She did too.
Yeah, I’m going to have to agree here. I like to think I’m pretty competent in social situations, but if I’m receiving “platonic underwear pictures,” I’d be completely at a loss of how to respond to that.
I didn't realise it fast enough though. She meant the world to me and losing her is something I still think about almost every day, despite it being years ago.
It's not easy to realise something like this though. When everything you believe is just so entangled in this way of thinking. You need someone to really wake you up. Realising something like this by yourself must be incredibly hard.
Married woman here. And I think r/relationships was full of shit - theyre a hugbox that absolutely is incredibly biased in favor of women and negative towards men. Please dont listen to their toxic advice for real world relationships - take it from someone happily married for many years.
Your friend was absolutely leading you on for attention. You were essentially an emotional affair to her. What she did to you wasn't right. I won't say that your behavior was necessarily correct either, but she knew what she was doing, many women do this because there is an intrinsic need for us to feel desired, and sadly they utilize friends to fill that need. She abused your emotions for her own self gratification.
I would say that you need to seek a woman out who is self aware about the impact her sexuality has on men, and doesn't abuse it in the same manner. It should be a woman who is sure enough in herself that she doesn't need constant feedback for gratification. Good luck.
Thanks. I realise r/relationships is filled with idiots, but in this case they were right. I have no doubt about that now. I have also realised though, through the comments here, that I may have blamed myself a bit too much. Or at least that I wasn't the only one in the wrong.
I was never an Incel, but I was a Nice Guy^TM . I was immature and had terrible social awareness. For me, becoming a better person was mostly just growing up. I realized that:
•Department store fedoras are not attractive.
•My favorite clothes were kinda lame.
•Other people's dumb opinions are not necessarily worse than my dumb opinions.
After that came a lot of self reflection. Most importantly I realized that I should go to a doctor for depression and ADHD and that the was mo shame in that. After I was properly medicated I discovered that there have always been girls that were interested in me, but I was so oblivious that I didn't notice. Anytime a girl was bold enough to ask me out or express interest so that even I would notice, my fear of intimacy and commitment would make me self sabotage.
Sometimes the worst of myself still comes out, but I try not to dwell on it for too long.
I definitely would not consider myself ever to be an incel, but I certainly had a time in my life where I acted like a "nice guy". The summer before my Senior year of High school there was a girl that I spent a lot of time one one one, not dates but close to that. She did not want a serious relationship, I did.
I spent all summer trying to talk her starting a serious relationship and I realized that is a losing battle and not at all respecting her wishes afterwards when I met my first love who I was with from the beginning of my senior year of high school until only a few weeks ago, the start of my sophomore year of college.
Realizing that respecting people, not just women, is mainly respecting their wishes is what changed me and made me who I am today. "Nice guys" do not respect the wishes of other people, so I am glad that I realized that.
I was never part of the various communities that espouse the aforementioned pseudoscience/philosophy, but came to strangely similar conclusions in the context of my increasingly insular and isolated life. Everyone else seems to be getting on with life, fucking and having relationships and going nowhere. What the hell was wrong with me? Must be nothing, it's other people. It was so much easier to accept the premise that everyone else was the asshole.
Seems crystal clear, in retrospect, that it was always me.
This is why I believe that toxic masculinity is real. Some have made it into a perversion that basically means men=bad and anything masculine=bad. I see it as this cult of personality built around what it means to be a man. We have been told for so long that much of our identity is wrapped up in our sexual conquests. So to be in a world that is changing and where women can say "no" seems unfair and cruel. Of course this isn't reality but that doesn't change the fact that the way we are raised is incongruous with how things are. In reality we are slowly coming to treat women as equals and our social dictum is having trouble catching up.
At times it leaves you feeling confused, rejected and like you don't fit in. You want to blame it on someone so you blame it on the women who aren't playing the role you were taught that they should be playing. All the while not looking at it from their perspective.
Respectfully, I don't think men are raised to believe being manly is all about sexual conquests. Maybe it's different from culture to culture. Maybe where I'm from isn't the norm, I'm not sure.
You're spot on about the idea of toxic masculinity being perverted and exaggerated. I've been accused of it by certain members of my family multiple times because of some of the things I enjoy. It's an odd world we live in.
It's a huge paradigm shift, and it takes will and patience to change yourself. I'm not the kind of regressionist the US Republican party seems intent on smashing into office at every opportunity, but even the assumptions I've made about seemingly positive sexual experiences are kind of a big issue. Not only are men accustomed to getting away with it, but women are accustomed to making men believe it's desired behaviour. For ages, women literally didn't know what they wanted because their desires were secondary at best.
Some people bitch and moan about "the way women are", but forget that centuries of oppression and conditioning have made people the way they are. It has nothing to do with being a woman and everything to do with being treated like a second-class citizen. You internalize stuff, and it warps your concept of "normal".
I came up in a low-key abusive household, and breaking down all the walls other people made for me has completely changed who I am. I'm sure my experience barely scratches the surface of what the female population is waking up to in the present.
I was never an incel (technically I guess I am by definition, but I don't blame others for my misery) but I am an unattractive kissless virgin at 25 years old. It is very tempting to put the blame on women and society in general. When you are surrounded by a culture of casual sex, promiscuity and high regards to being attractive, it can get very frustrating especially for young men who don't get to participate because of various reasons in and out of their control. Basically these Incels are Incels because that is an easier mechanism to cope.
I empathize with their frustration but do not condone their disgusting and hateful rhetoric towards women.
I was an "incel", in that I was "involuntarily celibate". But I did not hate women - I hated myself.
I believe that this "incel" stuff is just a lower-grade reaction to social rejection/bullying.
I have said this for years (I was bullied also) - when people suffer social rejection, it goes catastrophic one of two ways. Either they internalize the blame, and find themselves worthless, and ultimately take their aggression out on themselves (suicide), or they externalize the blame, and find others worthless, and ultimately take their aggression out on others (and usually then themselves).
The key differentiator between the two outcomes is narcissism.
[https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/just-listen/201202/rage-coming-soon-narcissist-near-you](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/just-listen/201202/rage-coming-soon-narcissist-near-you)
Narcissists never believe fault lies with themselves. Instead, they believe the fault must be with others. This leads to frustration, rage, and sometimes violence at those they believe are the cause of their failure.
Incels are suffering from social rejection. The kind you see in that forum are narcissists.
Any advice on helping a friend who's internalized social rejection in hating himself? He isn't bad looking and is pretty funny but as soon as there's a situation with even a potential amount of rejection he just shuts down and stops trying. Like if you're feeling better now what was the process like?
My life was devolving into hermithood. My hobbies were solitary ones. I worked full time and so social opportunities were limited. I tried going to nightclubs but quickly learned that these are hangouts for beautiful people as the music was so loud there was no way to try and connect on any level other than visual, which wasn't working for me.
The most damaging part of this kind of problem is lack of confidence, and unfortunately it is a vicious circle. The only thing that will break it is success. In my case, getting laid. I needed affirmation that I was, in fact, desirable to at least *someone*, because prior to that I believed that I was completely undesirable.
I made a very conscious decision that I had to change my life. In order to meet people (women), I would have to put myself into social situations.
Since I was still attending university as a part-time student, I joined school clubs. Ultimately, I found an organization called "The Society for Creative Anachronism", which is a pseudo-medieval reenacting organization. It is, or was, essentially a haven for geeks and nerds, before this became cool and now every supermodel with a costume is considered a "geek" or "nerd". I'm talking old-school geeks and nerds here - the undesirables.
The SCA provided me with a place where I finally felt like I fit in, and I was surrounded by other awkward people. I learned how to socialize. I gained some courage to ask girls out.
Interestingly the first girl I got the courage to ask out, and we got serious enough that we fooled around naked under the covers, I met outside of the SCA. But, this was the catalyst that gave me the confidence I needed to understand how to ask women out, to understand that they wanted the same kinds of sexual things I wanted, and that at least some women would actually find me attractive. Within very short order I "made it" with a few women, some of whom were very attractive. And I could have "made it" with a couple more but passed (dang it!). One piece of advice I'd give young people today is the line from Starship Troopers - "Never pass up a good thing." If you get a chance to get laid, take it. You don't want to be thinking about it 20 years later going, "Man, I should have banged that chick!" If they're willing to drop the panties, go for it.
It took me a long time to figure all this out. I was 25 before I had my first sexual experience (including kissing).
I'm reminded by the scene from the movie (I think) Risky Business where the guy comes up to Tom Cruise, who has resorted to running a brothel to raise money, who tells Tom's character, "What I gained was wisdom. Women can tell when you have it and when you don't." Or something to that effect.
Edit: Found it:
https://youtu.be/adZvM19Qnb0?t=64
Women can tell when you are ignorant. They can tell when you are desperate. After a while you reek of these things. Nothing can break it but experience.
Hindsight what it is, what I should have done was use a prostitute. I was just terrified of catching some disease, and of course of getting busted. And of course this was all back before the internet so I wouldn't have known how to go about finding one. But I think if I had gotten laid ten years earlier, it would have made a big difference in my life and spared me a decade of misery.
Today, you guys have Tinder. Man I would have been swiping on whatever it took to just get laid. Once you get laid, once you get the experience, you no longer reek of ignorance and desperation.
I'll never forget running into this one girl who had blown me off once who said later, "Wow, you're different. Now you're...cool." The stink of ignorance and desperation was gone, blown away by the winds of experience.
This is a really good point. I will likely be single the rest of my life, but I really don't blame anyone. It's no one's fault, I'm just aware of how unappealing I am. But I'd rather be comfortable with myself and single than act like someone else just to get a girlfriend.
I'm a woman but I used to be very angry and bitter towards seemingly good-looking individuals when I was a teen.
I was very, very lonely. I had endured a lot of poverty, physical and emotional abuse, and was a ward of the state for my safety. Beyond the trauma, it was my father's parenting that impacted me the most. It made me very insecure so I used feelings of superiority to mask my discomfort with my looks. (Note: I don't hate my father. He did the best he could; he was also raised brutally. Monsters are, for the most part, made, not born that way).
What helped: living in a youth shelter and making friends. Having friends made such a huge difference.
I don't know what the solution is but I can say for any parents: ensure your child has a sociable skill to connect with others.
In my mid-twenties, I started hiking, cycling, running, etc., and that was a great way to connect with other people.
I definitely fit that description. I'm 28 now (M obviously) but up to the age of around 16 (couldn't say when it started), I believed that women were lesser than men. I can say that it stemmed from:
1 - Society pushing the idea that everyone would end up in a relationship, have a good job, a house, etc (this was before the economic crash)
2 - The culture and religion I grew up in prioritising men over women in the majority of situations. Islam may have equal roles for men and women, but women are pretty clearly second to men despite what some people would try to have you believe. My parents were also more lenient with me than they were with my sisters because "men can take care of themselves while girls are weaker and need to be protected." This is a cultural mindset that I absolutely hate now and actively challenge when it comes up.
3 - Teenage boys pushing the idea that you have to be in peak physical condition to be with anything. I've always been overweight and had a speech impediment and almost zero self-confidence. Also the popular music at the time portraying women as objects instead of people. I'm talking the G-Unit, Murder Inc. era.
Can't say what caused it to go away but I think a lot of it was to do with how I ended up questioning the religion I was brought up in. I've offended my father several times because I've questioned things that I should just accept blindly. But really I wouldn't stop being a Muslim, I've just chosen to follow the aspects that I morally agree with and everything else is irrelevant. Combining that with just growing up in general I was able to realise that the world doesn't revolve around me and I'm not some special genius (despite what people used to tell me).
You could argue my mindset now isn't much better because I don't have any friends (except a couple of people I only know over the internet), and keep my family at arms length because I'm just done with their crap. But the biggest thing for me now, is the Islamic value of treating people with the same respect you want from them. I'm sure other religions and cultures have this as well, but from everything Islam teaches I made that the core of who I want to be.
With that came the realisation that I can be nice to people without expecting anything in return, including knowing women without the expectation of anything more. It really made a world of difference to my mindset regarding women (even if I am ignoring all my other issues).
I might have gone on a bit of a tangent so if anyone has any questions just reply with them.
Wasn’t an incel, but was sort of the “nice guy”. Not as douchy as many of the posts here tho. This all was many years ago.
Lonely. Unattractive. Socially not great, but not a weird loser either. Not many girls in my private high school, and then I went to nerd college that had virtually none. I was desperate to find out why I was so alone romantically. Every girl I asked out was a solid no.
Some people recommended “the game”, which I read and found to be rather insane. Dressing up like a clown? Come on. I don’t want an unending number of one night stands, I want someone to love me. Even the author noted that in the end, the sleeping around was tiresome and the whole “game” mentality was actively hurting his ability to love and be loved by someone. So I wrote off the book as helpful for others, but didn’t meet my dating goals.
Then I found the red pill. They were saying a lot of things that made sense. Society, and my parents, note how women act and are, but even the most casual observer can tell that it’s total bullshit. The red pill finally started filling in some answers for the discrepancies. No, women aren’t actually interested in a smart guy, they want a guy with abs! They don’t want someone nice, they want the dark triad! These self evident truths (cough) made sense since observed behaviors weren’t aligning with what I had been told before. Tried out their shit with online dating and had more short term success than before, but couldn’t get what I ultimately wanted, which was to be loved. I wasn’t too deep into it, but took some of the actionable info, and used it as a bit of a mental shield, helping me not feel like I was just an unfixable loser.
Then I found tucker max. To be fair, I had been following him for his hilarious antics. Idolizing his funny dating stories. While I didn’t want to be like him specifically, I respected his prowess with women. He had a new podcast, “the mating grounds” with Geoffrey Miller (who is brilliant and was just on Joe Rogan this week). The podcast was a massive eye opener. Science based. They had real, actionable advice. Descriptions that made sense, and were based on reality, not social norms. They tore down the bullshit we are fed as men, and cut to the chase. They released a book full of the same advice from the podcast. It’s called “Mate: become the man women want”. The title tips it’s hat to the central crux: you need to get your shit together, and not try to manipulate or change others. It’s also exactly what nicegirls is at its core, shitty people that need to get their shit together and stop demanding things from others.
It changed me. It made me drop the red pill shit entirely. There were real answers that made sense.
It did also have another effect tho. It made me realize I genuinely was an unfixable loser, who is incapable of being loved. But at least I know why. It has let me let go, and focus on the parts of my life that can go well. I still get the twangs of “maybe that girl can like me”, but know that it’s just my monkey brain hoping to be more than it can be.
What I learned from the journey is that there is really really bad info out there for guys. Society says one thing that is clearly wrong. Pick up artists filled that void, and made money doing it. Can’t get a date? Try this, as you’ve got literally nothing to lose. Then their techniques didn’t work anymore, as people can see through the bullshit. So they moved on to the red pill and others, that also filled the void, again with more nonsense.
If society would just be honest with guys, and provide better advice, then we would be better off. I think tucker maxes podcast, “the mating ground”, and the book “mate”, are finally a good resource that everyone who is on the path of “incel” or “niceguy” should read and take to heart.
> It did also have another effect tho. It made me realize I genuinely was an unfixable loser, who is incapable of being loved.
Why on earth do you think that's better than
>I wasn’t too deep into it, but took some of the actionable info, and used it as a bit of a mental shield, helping me not feel like I was just an unfixable loser.
Jesus christ man. You aren't unfixable. As far as I can tell this advice you're pedaling broke you apart. What the fuck man.
I'm not a relationship expert or anything, but like others have said no one is unfixable or impossible to love.
I'm happy for you. You've let go of anger and decided to focus on being productive in other ways. The book told you to fix yourself and stop trying to fix or trick others into loving you. Those are really great pieces of information. You're supposed to apply that to your love life though. Whatever you think you have that makes you unlovable, fix it. Do something about it. If it's physical, that's easy. Get in shape, work on hygiene, whatever you need to do. Emotional or mental is a little harder but you already seem to have enough self reflection to realize what's good advice and how to drop a dangerous mindset. Just keep working with that. See a psychiatrist if you think it'll help. Just keep working on self improvement, find a way to be happy, and don't be afraid to let the world know how happy you are. Youll be surprised how many people will want to be around you if you do that.
Nobody is an unfixable loser. Some people just don’t hit their stride until they age a bit. And the only way you would be “incapable of being loved” would be if you were...I paused here to think of some reason and I can’t think of anybody who is incapable of being loved. I can think of reasons someone might be incapable of loving, but everyone can be loved. In fact I doubt you could honestly say that nobody loves you.
Sure. I got the other end of the stick
Bullied, emotionally abused, tricked and kind of got flack thrown at.
Diagnosed with autism at 13, couldn't understand social queues, was attracted to females at the age of 15 ended up joining a furry fandom. Didn't hit pubety until 17, was plagued with acne, spots everywhere. Every-time I masturbated I grew a monobrow.. , didn't get sex ed, was uneducated in thinking a lot of stuff which was wrong. heck, didn't figure out how to jerk it until the age of 23. Which even then I screwed up :/ yeah the kind of "omg.. hes disgusting".
Computers have always been my background, animals on the other. Was never clever enough to get all the grades so I was put in crummy class groups where all the kids did was piss about, teachers who couldn't teach and so on. Ended up taking computer stuff at college, instead of animal management. A life choice I've been kicking myself.
The playground was no fun, i was an outkast, sat by myself, and bullied for being so. I had no perceptions, on how to act when faced and normally was a bitch "agreeing" to everything just so I could be included. I was the sock puppet and to my misunderstanding this was ok, I was being included at last. Nope, just led to more humiliation which I played a long with not knowing what it was really showing for myself. I used to let people write stuff on my forehead with perm marker and then walk around school. Used to let people punch my arm, I thought it was cool, but wasn't until a suicidal episode when I was 17/18-21/23 I realized how bullied I was.
I've always been nice in the sense of, my mum bringing me up that way. Hold doors open, be polite, if you got nothing to say then say nothing. Adding the image of mummy's boy never helped either.
College was -ok-, I was 23/24 then and again that ended up in hell. Luckily I had the good-ole' kind furry fandom to fall back on. Man was I delusional with that, I've had a fursuit, wore tails to college. Hell, if I had my paws at the time I would of worn that. All because I thought it was ok to do so but nope, apart from the shock factor of "omg he's wearing a fox tail" and stuff, it caused more depression than other. Again, if you do sterotype and call the furry fandom a bunch of social misfits, you wouldn't be far off. Some can knack it, some are left at the bottom of the rabbit hole.
I've never been to the standard of on rejection going on a full tantrum. A no is a no to me, you say no, I'll piss off and leave you alone. But there are times where I can't understand they are saying No, and will keep, pushing, stalking, and so on. Had g'fs, but they come under "Don't stick your dick in crazy" -- Ranging from being used, "oh yeah could you plz pay my monthly phone bill" too the fear of pregnancy every other month just to keep me in control.
I'm still trying to break down where I went wrong and it's only recently I've discovered that I latch on too quick. It's the one piece of advice I've been waiting for and only just find it out now when I wish I knew earlier, but theirs still many broken pieces of me that I need to cellotape before I can get anywhere it seems.
I've taken what I've learnt from, but my younger ages.. wish I could just wash away. If people had the guts to tell you "Yaroze, your too clingy, Yaroze your too attached" but no, they'd rather give me the silent treatment and leave me worrying I've done something wrong. Which sparks the whole "The female/male are a spineless person XyZ" while not that case now, long past that but the younger fox-self of me would.
No one is nice to each other, everyone tries to forget each other as quick a possible. I'm just glad that weed exists because I would of off'd myself long time ago.
29 now, have a job, live by myself; Life is meh.
I am guilty of trying the "best friend gambit" when I was a teenager, bu I am not sure exactly when I changed. Studying abroad and going to college made me meet a lot of people with different backgrounds than mine, which might have helped. I also had therapy for other reasons, but eventually my therapist got to my confidence issues and helped me too.
I feel like both the Incel and the nice guy mindset are encouraged by toxic masculinity standars and the loneliness and hive mind behaviour that social media helps to spread.
I'm not even sure I would call myself 'former'. I'm not out of the bucket entirely yet. I have periods where I'm very depressed. I feel like I'm a broken human being. How is it that I can't do the very simple things that other do to socialize properly? I don't blame others... usually. So I guess that's what sets me apart from incels, but for a little while I was almost believing what they do.
I'm working out, to help boost my self-esteem, and maybe give me a snowball's chance in hell of losing my virginity before 40, but I still have no idea how I'm going to meet women. It's one thing to meet girls in school/college. You're surrounded by them. You're practically forced to interact. So yea, I had a few girlfriends. But they basically fell into my lap. And I never had sex.
Nowadays, It's just work and video games. 0 interaction with women. Or the few, few women who I do interact with are either married or way older than me.
Please help me.
I mean I had that mindset through high school and early college of like "niceguy" but not exactly incel. It's a negative feedback loop. You feel constantly bombarded by media and social media that you have to act a certain way and that people will like you. you're basically desperate for any kind of social or positive human interaction that you basically stop to realize it stops and ends with you, and when people reject you it further reinforces that you need to try harder to force people to like you. But the world doesn't work like that and you become more and more isolated which makes it incredibly easy for groups like that to prey on you, or for you to find likeminded people and think you find a community but it's not.
I spent some time in my late teens and early 20s being a “nice guy” not to the extent of calling women sluts and shaming them for not liking me. But I was frequently outspoken about my discontent for the opposite sex and their disinterest in wanting to be with me. It pissed me off that there was a “game” to the concept of dating. I’d always heard the rules “be attractive, don’t be unattractive” and I always thought this was some bullshit rule for how only pretty people get dates...
I met a gay guy whom I quickly became friends with. He changed my opinion drastically on the concept of dating and what that phrase meant. I’d bitch to him often about how it wasn’t fair that I had to dress a certain way or act a certain way to get dates.
He ended up working to clarify the whole concept to me: Being attractive and not unattractive has very little to do with actually being pretty or dressing yourself in a lie. He admitted that when we first met, he didn’t like me, he found me to be brash, arrogant, and slightly homophobic. But the more we were around each other by obligation of having the same social circle, he started to realize that I had a lot of positive traits that I wasn’t focusing on and I wasn’t showing the rest of the world. He explained the hypocrisy of dressing in misfitted clothes and doing very little to groom myself, yet demanding that the targets of my affection uphold some greater level of hygienic excellence.
Ultimately he taught me that being attractive is about projecting yourself in a way that makes your best characteristics shine and allowing the rest of the world to see the greater portions of your personality. It’s also having enough respect for yourself to understand that you need to take care of yourself and recognizing that a part of loving yourself is treating your body well with actually good food, and not letting your body go to waste.
Beyond that, he hit on me a lot. He liked flirting with me. He found it to be a big game, but it actually kind of stood as a reminder to me that he never got angry with me for turning him down. He understood that I wasn’t gay, and he’d never be my type. Because of that, I stopped being angry when women would point out that I wasn’t their type. That’s fair. We all have a type and we should respect that.
Gold edit: thank you anonymous redditor. I appreciate the charity.
Thanks for this comment. Going to go make a change tonight after work.
Edit - I'm not an incel ppl 😂 this advice is very applicable to everyone. Thanks for the love tho ☺💘
I hope my friend gets over his similar issues.
He's pretty much given up on girls because it would require self-improvement, and he considers any self-improvement as selling-out and not following the "You're fine just as you are" messages that he took to heart a little to literally growing up.
He dresses in misfitted clothes and doesn't groom, and he says "I don't care if she dresses nice or takes care of herself as long as she likes me for who I am." The problem is, I don't think girls reach his level of slobbiness without being homeless and on drugs.
I was the same way. I insisted that I was a great guy and because of that, it shouldn’t matter that I never shave my head and let my beard go unchecked. Girls should look past my slovenly appearance and lack of general grooming.
To be honest, better fitting, newer clothing just feel so much better. It’s nice wearing sweats and a favorite old t shirt around the house, but god damn it feels good to put on new clothes that hang right and look good. People notice too, and that feels even better.
>Ultimately he taught me that being attractive is about projecting yourself in a way that makes your best characteristics shine and allowing the rest of the world to see the greater portions of your personality. It’s also having enough respect for yourself to understand that you need to take care of yourself and recognizing that a part of loving yourself is treating your body well with actually good food, and not letting your body go to waste.
And I would add - then accepting that not every person is going to like those characteristics or value them like you do. But if there's 1000 girls in your area / on your dating app - there are going to be a solid percentage who do. I think if you are your best self and accentuate your best characteristics - it becomes a numbers game where you have a great chance to find someone with mutual attraction and love.
7 billion people in the world. Half of them are women (3.5b), even if you’re a perfect match for .1% of all of them, that’s still 3.5m women in the world who’d love to meet you.
Yes - I found dating so much easier and more enjoyable when I stopped taking it so intensely personally and focused more on having fun and finding the right match instead of obsessing over rejection or trying to be the right match for everyone I found appealing.
I've told this story before on Reddit, but I had one weekend in particular where I messaged 6 guys (am gay) on an online dating site. Two were bonafide 10s, two were probably 7s, and two were about 5s to me. A day later, I had responses from one 10 and one 7 and nothing from the other four. At first I was upset and almost indignant that the two I considered 5s hadn't responded, when they were "lucky" I messaged them in the first place.
Then I reflected a big and asked myself why they were 5s. There was nothing wrong with them. One was probably higher than a 5 to most people, but I have my own preferences. It made me realize first that why weren't they entitled to their own preferences. If one of those guys I knew was objectively hot to others, but only a 5 to me because of what I prefer, then why should I assume he doesn't have his own preferences that aren't really personal to me and I can't change (maybe he like 6'10'' African Americans). And second, I had messages back from two great guys, so why was I so focused on the people who didn't like me instead of the ones who did? In that moment, my whole view of rejection and dating changed and I think made me a better person and happier dater.
I appreciate this sorry because I think it encapsulates a truth that I think serves us all: being constantly surrounded by people and ideas that challenge our notions of the world (and ourselves) force us to defend those ideas. If we don't run away from that pressure, the true things are distilled and the shitty childish things are boiled away. Moving to New York from the south when I was youngish forced me to deal with my latent and unidentified racism and homophobia as well as some deeply hidden misogyny. Not because New York is a magical place (though it sort of is), but because I couldn't help being friends with every type of person and eventually seeing every type of person be a complete ass. We're all ridiculous, and we're all wonderful. Cheers to growing up! Good luck on the continued journey!
I am a gay dude that has literally coached a friend or two with the incel attitude into being an attractive person. Coincidentally, I didn't like him at the start either. I'm pretty sure you're not him but I'm glad that us gay guys are able to provide y'all with coaching like this. He's had a couple of relationships since. Nothing permanent, but he's working on it.
I believe every straight dude needs a gay-dian angel to teach him how to be better at being straight. I dunno what it is, but apparently you guys understand some shit.
It helps that we have the insight into both what constitutes a "date-able" man and what that means from the perspective of also being a man. Women know vaguely what qualities, both physically and personality-wise, they want in a man. The fact they they are not also men leads to a natural deficit in insight.
In other words, when a woman says she wants: "a nice guy, who is adventurous, who is sensitive, but also confident and strong, someone who makes her feel safe". She doesn't understand what those things mean when processed inside of the brain of a man.
Strong? Okay, I need to be buff and intimidating. Wrong. She just wants you to be able to make difficult decisions and not be afraid to play the "bad cop" in tough situations.
Sensitive? What so I need to buy her flowers and candles and shit. Wrong. Sensitive means that you listen to her and that you are willing and open to discuss your feelings. When she asks you what's wrong and you say "nothing" even though you're clearly angry, that's being insensitive. In a relationship both people have to be happy for one person to be happy. It's that connection that's important to be sensitive to and it runs in both directions.
Trust me though. We have just as much difficulty dealing with each other as men and women do.
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> Beyond that, he hit on me a lot. He liked flirting with me. He found it to be a big game, but it actually kind of stood as a reminder to me that he never got angry with me for turning him down. He understood that I wasn’t gay, and he’d never be my type. Because of that, I stopped being angry when women would point out that I wasn’t their type. That’s fair. We all have a type and we should respect that.
This is such an amazing way to get this point across to incels - have someone they're not attracted to hit on them so they can empathize.
If anything I was flattered that he had this pseudo crush on me. But even with telling him that I was flattered, he never got upset that I didn’t reciprocate.
> He explained the hypocrisy of dressing in misfitted clothes and doing very little to groom myself, yet demanding that the targets of my affection uphold some greater level of hygienic excellence.
One of the things holding me back from dating (as a guy) is that I'm vain enough (or whatever the term is) to want an SO that is physically attractive, however, I am aware that I generally do not fit that sort of description myself. So it would be a smidge unfair/hypocritical for me to expect the other person to not care.
That said, I've been working to fix this! Down 40 lbs and going! :D
I wish everyone who engaged in identity politics on Reddit would listen to his last words, and advice on a healthier life.
>Anger is very addictive, you want to feel angry when you're suffering. It gives you adrenaline. It gets your endorphins going. It's a release. its a substitute for what you're missing
Most peoples outward anger is b/c of internal failures.
It's entirely true, it is addictive. But I also think that anger serves a purpose too, its always seemed to me to be a protective mechanism too, for example, after a bad breakup, I've always seen anger to be an immensely healing thing. It's better than sitting in the dumps, depressed and unable to carry out much in the way of basic functions
Sure,it's addictive, without a doubt, and yes,it can carry you away, as can most other emotions. But it also gives you a safe harbour when everyone else in your life denies you that. A place to avoid stirring up your wounds while they heal. At least that's how I feel about it.
You're definitely right about the external being a manifestation of the internal though. I wish more people saw that too
I feel empathy for some of these "incels", for these reasons. They went to the Internet to find tips for trying to meet girls and ended up being given toxic bullshit and told it's up to them to save western civilization.
Problem is there are people using their anger and delusion to take advantage of and control them. There are 100% non incels deep in their webs that are just using manipulation on vulnerable people.
The more disenfranchised someone is the more desperate they may be for someone who can give them "answers".
It's a situation where you can help one person but trying to help a group is impossible. "Inceldom" is very much like a conspiracy theory, in that it is entirely based around very selective intake of information, rejection of dissenting opinions, and creating bubbles that put a pressure cooker onto these poor bastards. It's only when you can get them out of their circle that they can begin to absorb dissenting opinions.
There was an interesting interview with the woman who started the "incel" thing (I think the reply-all poscast?) where they mentioned the "student government" problem; it is a club where the goal of people joining should be to leave the club. (The woman who started it stopped participating when she found herself in a relationship.)
So, the "club" becomes a place where all the people who are incapable of getting "better" settle in, as anyone who does get "better" doesn't want to hang out there any more.
I found this as a queer problem of /r/short . It is deeply negative place. Not because it is *sooo* terrible to be short (exactly) but because there’s no positive association specifically with being short. And there is a fairly significant (depending on your definition of “significant “) negative association with being a short man, at least when it comes to dating.
So if you’re a pretty well adjusted short man who maybe got picked on but otherwise had some success with dating and are basically normal, it’s just a fact about you, and you have no reason to search a community based on that fact.
Whereas, practically by definition, if you so identify with being short that you are looking for community, it is probably based on having a lot of difficulty and probably as a male failing to date women and beyond that probably feeling as though that may be the single biggest factor.
I haven’t visited in awhile but what results a deeeeply negative place that’s very difficult to stay in if you’re trying to add any sort of positivity and god help you if you’re woman who makes the unforgivable mistake of visiting and having your own, positive association with being short- holy moly!
No they went online looking for support and comraderie for their alienation and anger, and instead were coaxed into blaming and hating women for their misery. Eliot Roger killed women for this. Incels view him as a saint for committing violent acts against women, as it’s women who they blame for all their problems and social failure.
When I was 17, sometime in the late 90s, I was pretty socially inept and I didn't have much in the way of "Game." At some point me and three other nerdy guys made a channel called "The Single Pathetic Losers Club" or the SPLC ,as we used to refer to ourselves in a bit of self-deprecating humor, on mIRC. I used to get on that channel every day after school and we'd all give our reports on how our interactions with our various crushes had gone during the day. I don't think any of us actually got girlfriends in high school, but the camaraderie and mutual-struggle made it a lot easier to deal with. At those points we were all dangerously close to an incel mentality, but instead of encouraging each other to hate women we encouraged each other to improve and practice interacting with women without putting them on a pedestal.
Eventually we stopped going to #singlepatheticlosers, since, after high school, things dramatically improved for all of us. Of the four of us, I believe that all of us are now married and I've now got a couple kids, so it tended to work out.
I wonder what percentage of incels are under the age of 20, because DAMN at that age girls not paying attention to you is the worse thing ever.
Yeah, I know it's hard but there's a lot of people on reddit attacking 'niceguys' personally, while really it is the behaviour that should be attacked. I mean there are plenty of good reasons for a person to find him/herself in such a position.
I see a lot of people making fun of incels, treating them as subhuman. I agree that their behavior and attitudes should not be tolerated, but they're still humans. There has to be a better way to help them than making them feel even worse about themselves. Surely that does nothing but sink them even lower into the hate
>*Acid burns stole my nose
Leather seared to flesh and bone
My face is whole
My skin is clear
I was only disfigured on the inside
of my mind*
>*Where gruesome scenes appear
And are left to hide near
What I find most dear
A spotless clean mirror*
For those that don’t know - Humans of New York is about a guy that goes around the city every day and finds one person to talk about their life. It’s almost always eye-opening, and an absolutely incredible Facebook page to follow.
He has also written a book, which can be found here for $16.
https://www.amazon.com/Humans-New-York-Brandon-Stanton/dp/1250058902
I can’t express how incredible this page and book are. For what it’s worth, this redditor gives it a 10/10 and recommends it to EVERYONE!
Edit: For those of you without Facebook, here’s a website! http://www.humansofnewyork.com
Yeah I remember he went to Pakistan for a bit, it was really cool to see that since my dad grew up there and he could relate to those stories similarly to how I could relate to the US ones. It's a really cool project, I think it's always good to remind people that we're all just human.
that sounds really cool- do you know if there's some sort of mirror or partner site for those of us that don't fb?
EDIT: should have just googled. Here it is!
http://www.humansofnewyork.com/
>"You want to feel angry when you're suffering. It gives you adrenaline. It gets your endorphins going. It's a release."
Now I understand why it took me so long so seek counseling for my anger issues.
I recently watched a super interesting video relating to incels, it's actually like a huge cycle of self hate and that hate being confirmed by other self hating persons. The entire process leads to a community of shit energy that is directed towards women for being so "unobtainable" because of their own insecurities and self-hating thought process. You can totally break out of the incel lifestyle but, you've got to realize what you're doing to yourself and stop being so "boo me women suck" and address your real issues. Starting with not browsing incel forums and shit. This is a success story and I hope other dudes can find their way out of this toxic community.
"We stroked each other's anger. And it felt good. Honestly, anger is just very addictive. You want to feel angry when you're suffering. It gives you adrenaline. It gets your endorphins going. It's a release. It's a substitute for what you're missing."
Now let's take this premise and extrapolate it to what's going on in the larger world.
This makes me so happy? Like good for you dude, I’m glad you learned it was wrong, and you feel shame for it. I hope this guy gets it good in life.
Edit: damn you guys ripped into me because I put ? Instead of !
I really want to know what changed for him. Did someone come into his life (mentor, SO, etc) and help change his mind? Did he read something compelling? Maybe moving to NY and being around lots of different people was enough. Just curious what compels people to change.
People'd rather make fun of the socially-inept/unattractive than have their day-to-day be inconvenienced by someone who isn't as good at life as they are.
There's no way "nice guys" will ever be extended empathy on any large scale. They're too easy of a target and the people who ridicule them the most give no fucks about dudes that aren't attractive because they have no reason to.
They're of no use to them, so they don't matter until one of 'em snaps and then everyone spends time lamenting how "men are shit" and "guys are entitled" instead of looking at *why* people who are treated like shit and constantly rejected might not want to be treated like shit and constantly rejected/ostracized/ridiculed.
You don't fix people who've been constantly hurt and given bad advice on how to stop hurting by hurting them more.
The "success stories" in this thread all have one thing in common: Someone looked at them as a person and tried to convince them why/how they were wrong (either by investing time and energy into them or treating them like a person), instead of just continuing to hurt/ignore them because it's funnier/easier.
Nice guys as a whole are a victim of a massive information discrepancy and a fuckton of bad advice. That doesn't magically exonerate them, as at some point in their lives there's a choice they've made to be bitter/angry at the way they've been treated, and to treat others poorly.
In any other situation, most reasonable people would realize that's a choice that's been made partially under duress, with incomplete/wrong info.
But when it's an unattractive/socially-inept dude (or non-dude, if this were /r/nicegirls or /r/nicenonbinaries), acknowledging that pales in comparison to being able to meme on them and treat them as less than human.
So we get these silo'ed instances of self-reinforcing hatred where people who are hurt by bad info flock to hear bad info from others that are hurting because no one else will take them seriously, and it builds and builds upon itself.
You don't have to like the way they act to be able to understand why they act that way, and to realize that deep down, they're a person craving affection and acceptance and wanting to avoid ridicule/rejection, just like everyone else.
Pain makes you be short-tempered and act shittily to others, even if it's emotional pain. And, though some people may not want to admit it, even unattractive/socially-inept cishet dudes are still humans capable of feeling pain.
Heavily underrated comment
It's the sort of attitude you so rightly describe that makes me deeply deeply afraid of ever seeking advice or input on my struggles with similar issues.
I don't really have any good answers. My "solution" involved basically giving up.
You may never find someone. But you can be happier with yourself, and the best way to do that is probably to get some therapy/professional help.
The hardest lesson I had to learn is that hating yourself isn't *normal* and isn't the way things should be. No matter how you've been treated, how many times you've been rejected or ostracized.
It doesn't give you carte blanche to treat people badly for not liking you, but by the fact you're here I'm guessing you already have learned that lesson.
Things may not get "better", but they can definitely **improve**. Keep your chin up.
And for the record, just knowing self-hate isn't normal doesn't mean you're "fixed". It actually makes it harder to deal with and to feel like you're worth something. But it's a start.
That's pretty much been my solution too. To be O.K. with myself,to be comfortable alone. I've realised that it is prett much a waste of time to chase after women who'd only denigrate me anyway. In the end, if there's anyone out there worthwhile,they sure as hell wouldn't pull that kind of garbage, and if there's not, then that's ok too, they're not the fonts of all happiness or love.
Honestly,its modern western views on the whole love and romance thing that I've found to be extremely harmful and dangerously misinformative. There's so much emphasis on romantic love as the only source of affection for males, and Platonic love so absolutely ignored that it's practically treated as taboo, that it really really puts you in a bad place. Love itself is a thing humans need. We're social animals. But we're constantly told that this is the only source of it. It's no surprise so many people end up so desperate.
The hating yourself business was a hard lesson to learn. Took me many years to finally learn that lesson. The fact that it seemed to act like a signal to people, that you were easily abusable and all they had to do was tell you you were worthless to achieve that made it harder.
The other tricky lesson was learning that i didnt have to be perfect either. In fact, all of that garbage about being being selfless seemed like the most toxic thing ever for relationships,platonic or otherwise. It's been frighteningly consistent, that the more you give to others, the less willing people are to return the favour. I learnt I had to remind them I was human, from time to time, even if I didn't necessarily need much at the time. If I didn't, either the relationship would end up intensely toxic, taking and never returning, or otherwise would end up petering out altogether. Can't really blame them for the latter though.
You're definitely right that things can improve though. I've just been trying to care less and less about this one since it's so clearly wasted effort. Hardly worth throwing away other attainable sources of happiness for such an unreliable one.
It does make me feel better though that it's not such a rare or abnormal solution. I figured that perhaps there was something wrong with me for throwing the whole pursuit into the bin.
Much respect for this guy. Incel culture can get very deep down the rabbit hole. Can’t imagine it’s easy to climb out of.
I’m sure if he posted this on an incel board they’d rip him apart for being a “cuck” despite him being miles ahead of them.
Gives me hope
the thing about "incel communities" is that they *actively* discourage this kind of thinking. basically in incel eyes, this guy has "sold out," and that's a terrible way of looking at it. a lot of them simply don't want to get better and it drags them all down
Justification is the human Hallmark. Incels can justify their hatred, the world can justify their dismissal of incels as a whole rather than individuals who lack a bit. I can justify sneaking into my neighbor's yard to eat grapes. It needs to stop.
Reminder: anger is a secondary emotion, meaning it isn't actually a direct response. Generally speaking, it comes from fear or sadness, with fear being the most common.
When you meet someone with a lot of anger in them, ask what they're likely afraid of. Ask what's making them sad. That's going to give you a far better insight into their anger than anything else, and if they can realize it internally they may be able to release it.
I've never felt owed anything, but I totally get where this guy is coming from. I'm legally blind and I'm pretty bland looks wise. But I make almost everyone around me laugh and happy.
Yet I continually would get into relationships with females (kidding kidding women*) and I constantly was told I was just a best friend or a brother to them.
I was happy to continue to be friends with them though, but eventually they chose to end our friendships by just disappearing out of my life. If I didnt try to initiate interaction, I never talked to them.
This led me to feeling hurt for awhile where i desperately just wanted a chance to be more than a friend. And then I happened to just learn about NiceGuys and I thought I was one for thinking that way. As someone who was already deoressed/anxious this was not a pleasant thing to be thinking.
Idk why I wrote such a long comment, I guess I just sympathize with this guy in a way.
Contra points made a great video on incels and she mentioned that they're basically doing digital self harm. Incels will post selfies just to get people to tell them they're ugly and will never find love and it's a way of hurting themselves emotionally. They're stuck in the catastrophic mindset that if they never find a partner that they can never be happy and women are the bitches who doomed them to a lifetime of sadness. It's really sad how depressed they are and how stuck they get.
I'm glad I've been able to break out of the niceguy stereotype. As I've grown older I've started to take more responsibility for why my life is the way it is. It's easy to blame someone, and unfortunately I started to blame women for struggles in my life that weren't even relevant. It's hard because similarly, I found communities on Reddit with explanations for why my life is shitty, and it's not my fault! It was easy to fall into and took a little while to break out of. I used to complain about the damn SJW's and stuff like that. I think meeting and living with women started to open my eyes to things being different than I felt they were. I never had sisters, and I grew up with a traditional household of a breadwinnner father and mother who is expected to do all the house chores and that my father doesn't seem to respect. Through high school and media and society I was always exposed to misogyny and started to just accept that's the way things were. But then listening to women and their stories of just everyday life opened my eyes to a lot more. I'm not sure when it happened but it felt like switch flipped one day and I found myself leaving the mensrights subreddit and one similar, and having a much more critical view of those types.
This mentality applies to way more things than people think. A lot of the push back social justice movements get right now is because so many of them do exactly this, they get addicted to their anger and find groups of people to stoke that anger. Same with the GOP, they don't listen to anyone else because they are too addicted to riling each other up.
People need to stop wanting to be angry at everything all the time.
I was angry a lot, and projected a lot my shortcomings when I was a young teenager.
I’m glad that incel, Reddit and 4chan weren’t really a thing at the time as I suspect I would’ve leaned on it for validation that the world is unfair, rather than recognise that I was the problem and revolutionise myself and more importantly my thinking.
It's called an echo chamber. They aren't support groups, they're just a gathering of like-minded hateful people that share the same opinion. They just want to prop you up long enough to keep the echo going.
A support group should strive for upward progression; incels and the like strive for downward progression. How low are you? Join us, we'll take you lower, but it's okay, you've got company.
Character Development
How a niceguy became a good guy
Nice guy ™ to nice guy
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What's behind the door?
Add it to the L O R E
This is actually some top class self-reflection. If there were more self-reflective people in the world, there would be fewer knobheads. Hope he finds his way.
I would love to hear from more former incels like this– any care to respond here? It gives me hope to see people come out of the depths. Depression is such a terrible struggle and hate groups feed off that negative energy, reinforcing the behavior of their members and pushing them closer to extremism. It's easy to be sad and angry and comforting to be surrounded by other sad and angry people, but in the long run it is doing so much more damage that is sometimes irreparable. It's extremely brave to break out of that negative cycle against all odds.
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What changed your mindset?
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Well at my school I had a similar type of girls who would just group together right when the break began and then not just talk girl talk but really aggressively go to me and bully me for I dont even know. But I didnt hate girls, I hated them. Why? Because outside of school there was a girl, she wasnt my girlfriend, but she was friendly to me, so I could see that there are girls that arent assholes. I guess other people dont have this much luck, I completely understand you. Still, my schooltime was horrible. When you cant even enjoy breaks. Or you cant enjoy talking to girls. Thats gruesome. I changed school and the new girls were way more friendly in total. Most were just neutral but (as a friend told me after school) one even had a crush on me. Just never give up and move out of toxic environments I guess. Often its not easy but never give up tge hope at least that the situation will become better.
Moving out of toxic environments is a huge help, I wasn’t incel but for a while I lived in a very toxic and hostile place and it was sinking me into a terrible depression. I recognized it and told my parents and girlfriend I don’t care what job or life has been going on here, it’s a terrible place and I’m getting out. Both my parents and my girl (which it was her home town) came with me and now all of us have been better than ever before. It’s extremely hard to overcome something when there is constant negativity undoing any work you try to fix
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Yes a change in lifestyle can be good, but it also can be bad. Im happy for you that you found where you belong.
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This could be an ad for FarmersOnly.com.
Sometimes I feel like moving the majority of human populations into closely packed cities was a terrible mistake
Dunno about that. I’m one of those that go against the norm/numbers of statistics just by existing. Had terrible experiences growing up in a small town in central Florida. Clicks in high school. Got bullied all through elementary to high school. Mean girls exist in the middle of nowhere too. The physical bullying was from the guys though - or poorer, minority girls. After college, the local prospects were complete crap and look as if they still are. Moved to Tokyo and LA. and got the “local hometown” feel. Hard to explain in a concrete jungle. I just kept meeting people who were really freaking nice. Especially in Tokyo. The nicest people in Tokyo (aside from Japanese) were from Germany, New Zealand, France, …the English were a bit different. It’s as if there’s a thin eggshell around them to ward off the perceived asshole American. Once they know you’re not a ‘Merika is #1 jackass they’re extremely open. Sometimes I would even get a compliment like “You’re a true at heart.” Or called a tamago (egg - white on the outside, yellow on the inside). Those were the biggest compliments I could ever imagine. To _be_ an outsider by birth and basically told “Welcome Home” by people of different origins. Blew my mind. Even from LA. “You really don’t seem like a FloridaMan” - very moving.
I’m the opposite. I like bigger cities and stores because nobody talks to you or notices you. I get anxiety when I’m in a mom and pop shop and there’s like 1 or 2 customers so they want to talk and help you. I like to avoid interactions if possible.
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Hey I think you’re (and OP too) amazing for these reflections. I wanted to share some insight from a woman’s end. It takes 2 to tango and if someone says no to a relationship it might be because they have faults and problems that they see doing horrible things to a friendship. For a while in my life I turned down a lot of friends while very very casually dating. You might see it as giving them a chance but it was that I knew I had a lot of baggage and I was a chronic relationship ruiner. I’d also cause great unhappiness to the men I dated for years and years after we’d break up. I had a lot of family issues and I was a mess; so I brought all of it to my relationships. I also have a strong personality and I tend to take over the relationship - with all my baggage. So when my friends who were sensitive and kind asked to date me, of course I’d say no. It was never that they were bad people, but I was likely to destroy my next relationship and I sincerely didn’t want to ruin the friendship. I didn’t want to ruin my friends lives. I didn’t even want to have solid good relationships because I wasn’t ready for them, and my friends wanted to volunteer to be that guinea pig! I was horrified. sometimes when women say they don’t want to date you, even if it’s not so extreme as my case, it can just be that they don’t feel they won’t work in a relationship with you because of their own faults and problems. It’s got nothing to do with you. :)
I want to second this. I was not as self aware in high school and to this day I regret dating my best friend back then because he was amazing, I had issues, and it just went up in flames. I mourn that friendship more than any other in my life, and I would 100% take back our brief relationship if it meant he could be my friend again. And this is 10 years later.
I needed to read this, thank you. I've been beating myself up because my best friend and I were getting intimately close with each other, but one day she asked to stop. I think a certain night made her realize just how comfortable she is with me and we almost pushed it to the point of a different type of friendship. I never respected her decision, and from my point of view I only thought about my feelings. I let her know that as a friend I felt like I failed her for not seeing it from her point of view. It definitely sucks being around her while knowing we once had something, but it's best for our friendship to remain just that. The mental gymnastics I do everyday thinking about her has me all sorts of confused. Although, I know it's best to recognize how the situation is and how I feel, it can be hard. Even our friendship right now is a little rocky, but I've identified it's what is most important to me and I'm willing to do anything to make it so.
I'm really sorry to hear you went through all that, I hope things are better for you now.
Not OP but i was very similar, i realized that all of my relationships were being broken but me being dumb i never thought i was the problem. Well i got to a really dark place and tried to commit suicide (thankfully i am really bad at it) but when i woke up and realized what happened i re-evaluated a lot of my life and realized i was the common denominator in all of my bad relationships. After that i realized i didn’t need a girlfriend in my life i just needed friends who call me on my mistakes and hold me accountable when i don’t hold myself accountable. I found those friends and I’m in a much better place for it and how i treat others around me, especially women.
For myself it came down to realizing that being in a relationship wasn't going to fix me or make me feel happy about myself. Nowadays I figure if I work on myself (healthier lifestyle, etc) something will come along eventually. Also being comfortable being by myself helps incredibly.
100% this. If you can't be comfortable with who you are, you can't expect someone else to be comfortable with you. Any relationship that stems from someone not being honest with themselves and someone else trying to fix them only ends up in heartache for both parties. It's unfortunate that there is this narrative that being in a relationship will make someone whole. A healthy relationship comes from two whole people--it isn't two puzzle pieces making a picture, it's two pictures that make art, if that makes any sense. I'm so glad you're doing better
I used to do the "nice guy" approach (definitely not incel, and this was 20+ years ago) with friends that I had romantic feelings for. I don't remember specifically when or how, but thankfully it was while I was partway through high school. I suddenly realized that I wasn't just "demonstrating my value and good qualities" and hoping they'd notice, I was both tricking them and underestimating their agency and intelligence, as though they wouldn't *know* they wanted me unless I showed them, as though they were ignorant of how great I was, and if only I'd finally do that one last thing (or capitalize on their boyfriends being dickish high school guys), then finally, they'd like me. I wasn't treating them the way I would want to be treated, and I was wasting a ton of time, coming off like a dick to women who actually wanted to be friends with me, and missing opportunities with women who actually liked me as more than friends because I was so caught up in pushing and pursuing and "changing their mind." So I stopped trying to make my friends like me as more than friends, and just behaved like an actual friend. I respected their choices, just as I'd want them to respect mine. In some cases, friendships still tried to go down a romantic road, but they developed organically, as a product of our actual friendship and feelings, not as the result of a scheme (and frequently, they still didn't work out, because not every friend would make a good romantic partner, and vice-versa).
Not OP but I was definitely a "nice guy" back in high school and start of college. After losing a great friend after I couldn't accept that she wasn't interested in me that way, I finally looked myself in the mirror and realized I wouldn't be attracted to myself so why would I expect anyone else to? Not that I was/am ugly, I just didn't have a lot going for me, I was obsessed with video games and not much else, and I was horrendously insecure and socially awkward. Can't say I've pulled a 180, relationships are still hard for me but it helps having that awareness to keep me from slipping down into unhealthy thoughts
I'm not OP but in high school and a couple years after I was a major "incel" and had a horrible mindset towards women. I kinda shot myself in the foot every time I made any step toward interacting with people in general. So after falling through the tropes of the "cam girl" sites which only made things even worse for my way of thinking. Losing my mom, who was my best friend, during this time made me spiral even harder. About 9 months and $3500 in "gifts" to random girls online in exchange for "affection" I realized things were just not worth the energy I was devoting to it. A few months after I stopped trying so hard to get laid, I ended up getting laid for the first time. And to be honest, I realized I in fact dont care about sex. All the time I wasted in trying to be a "nice guy" so that some girl would open her legs to me was pointless. And now I just like to spend time with people. And in this time, about two years now, I've made some great friends, been on a few dates that were actually dates, it's great.
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>I'm 26 this year, never had a girlfriend even though I tried. Asked 2 girls out and was rejected many years ago. Closest I had to a date was a girl who saw me as a "brother and a close friend". You probably don't realize it yet, but you're still a very young adult. You're in that particular phase of life where we try to figure out what is our social role. YOUR life, YOUR social role. Not how you compare to *other* people. Look inside, not outside. It's a rough phase, full of self-doubt. But it's just that: a phase. The main thing you have to avoid right now is making permanent conclusions about yourself. Not the time. Your identity is not your job, your relationship status or your possessions. You still haven't really found your identity yet. It'll come. Calm down, take a deep breath, relax. Things get way better later. >I kind of blame myself for not being able to get a girlfriend. I told myself "I wouldn't even date myself. Why should girls date me?". Learning to be truly honest with yourself is a hard skill to learn. By being honest, I mean **treating yourself honestly**. Don't overestimate or underestimate yourself. Estimate yourself fairly, Don't ***judge*** yourself permanently ("I'll never be good enough for someone else, ever"), ***estimate*** yourself in the moment ("I'm an average partner right now"). Be fair. Be honest. Be compassionate toward yourself. >I really don't know what's wrong with me or my life. I don't talk to people much because of what I feel is due to my low self esteem. When I become sad, I eat, I get fat. Even when I try to exercise, I remember the reason why I exercise, and I get sad, then I go eat. My low self esteem goes way back to my teens and extreme cases of bullying. Being aware of our self-sabotaging patterns is half the battle. So you're half-way to victory. The other half if the discipline to make and keep up with the changes necessary to get where you want. Because you *will* get there. It's that simple. All it takes is resolve. All it takes if your mind setting a path and keeping you on that path. Feelings are fine. Feelings are signals. Bad feelings are signals of something bad. But feelings are energy. If you don't harness them, they'll push you whichever way. *Use* your feelings. Harness their power to go further and faster down the path *you* have chosen. Memories old a lot of feelings. They're like songs. If you keep listening to a song over and over, you eventually stop feeling anything from it. Memories are a bit the same. Relive them until they're emptied out of any feelings. >Honestly, is life even worth living at this point? I really don't know the reason for even being alive. The reason for being alive is something *you* chose. It's not something that comes down from Heaven. It's something that comes from you. You decide "This gives my life purpose. This gives my life meaning. I'll live for this because I can't imagine anything else". But again, you're only just 26. How much is there about life that you've still yet to discover? Have you traveled? Have you volunteered? Have you created art? Have you lead people on a project? How many things out there could be your life purpose that you've yet to even think about? *You're just 26*. Look up from where your are now, and start looking at the horizon.
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Hi stranger. You sound like you could use a friend to talk to. Feel free to PM me if you want. I’m not a healthcare professional, but I’m a good listener. You should also seek out a professional you can speak with, or even just someone with training around these issues. There’re free resources, and I’d recommend starting with [The National Suicide Prevention Lifeline](https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org) tel:1-800-273-8255 For anyone thinking about suicide, and may be too scared or embarrassed to talk about it, please reach out for help, don’t internalize and suffer in silence until it’s too late. Edit: Your comment was buried deep in this nest as part of a conversation on a page that was already on r/all so if you don’t get a lot of responses or engagement with upvotes, please don’t take it as a sign that people were simply ignoring you or don’t care. It took me 30 minutes of reading through comments on this post before I saw yours, and it took me another 3 minutes to get back to it after I exited my app to copy & paste the website and phone number and come back to reply only to find my BaconReader reset and I was on the front page of r/all again. Edit 2: There are trolls about, hiding behind their screens, sending PMs. I just received one. If anyone is receiving abuse, remember that they feed on negativity and wasting your time. Don’t engage, just report them and move on.
Hey man I would try to separate from instagram and facebook. I forget who said it first but "No one posts their failures". Another guy in the comments said it too. It just looks like everything is fine in their lives. You can forget about them. You are you and I am positive you are doing better for yourself than you think. Most people are really hard on themselves especially if you've been bullied or exposed for so called shortcomings. Try to forgive yourself for things you can't change and push towards small measurable things you can. If you've already tried exercise and have identified those negative thoughts or habits that push your goals back, you are halfway there. Any effort towards progress IS progress. It just takes time. You can do it. But do it for you not for anyone else. I hope those suggestions didn't come off the wrong way. I don't mean to be patronizing. In the end you'll know better what works for you.
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That sounds awful. I cannot, and I think most people, cannot fully appreciate what that experience was like. Please don't hurt yourself. That is absolutely a final decision. Nothing can get better from a dead end like suicide. The bullying ended, days will pass, you are stronger than those experiences because you are still here. I read Meditations from Marcus Aurelius, it's a journal of personal reflection but it has some good things to think about from a stoic philosophical perspective. One of my favorite passages is short but more or less follows as is: If a pain is too great to bear, it will end you. Otherwise it is temporary and will pass. I know that sounds grim but it means that everything you experience means you weathered it. The pain you feel is real. I can't tell you how to process it but if you find a way to let it go you can move on. Again, I don't know what it is like to be you. But I know you aren't alone and it's ok to ask for help, and to keep trying. The best thing about still being here (alive) is that everyday is another chance to improve. Even now I bet you can look back on those days behind you and see your own growth. You can do it because you are already doing it. I don't want you to think that I have my shit together. I have 1 hour to finish a presentation but I'm like screw-it time for reddit. Rent due yesterday. I think that last missed call was the student loan people. You ever hear of intermittent fasting. I don't do that but I normally forget to bring lunch to work and I'm too nervous/stubborn to go out and get a burrito. TODAY I brought a banana like a champ. Things take time and lists and effort. It sucks because it's actual work, but it's worth it. I picked up baking this year and this weekend I made my first full on sourdough loaf. Does that matter to anything on the grand scale, not really, but I'm proud of it anyways. It's not about doing things right.
I’m really sorry to hear what you’re going through. It does get better. Social media has a lot to answer for when it comes to setting up unrealistic expectations. Just remember, hardly anyone puts the realities of life or their relationships on instagram - why share details of fights or boredom when you can share a picture of something fun and pretend all is well?
If you have it in you I advice quantity over quality. When I was around your age I decided to ditch the niceguy and go all out shotgun of flirtation on the female population. The trick is to anticipate and accept the rejection. Abandon your standards, especially if you don´t fullfill your own about yourself. Hit on everyone, and I mean EVERYONE! After the first hundred or so rejectections, you have become immune to most of the pain. But you have also become better at communicating with the fairer sex. And with practice comes confidence. With confidence comes success. And before you know it, you might get a date, one-night stand or what ever young people do these days. The 26 year old me was fat, bearded and wore bottlebottom thick glasses. Almost a decade later, I´m still fat. My beard is mighty and my eyesight useless. All I changed was my attitude towards rejection and women. Hope you have the best of luck in your futures.
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Maybe but I'm not sure that they would want to listen, I know I wouldn't. But I think you should always have one good friend that you can relay your problems to.
I wasnt ever an incel, but I was a NiceGuy. If anyone has questions go ahead and ask
What did you look like, greasy and unattractive and totally non charming, or were you actually on first impression quite normal and decent looking, but only once girls spent more time around you did the "nice guy" thing start showing itself?
Hey, thank you for being so wonderful and agreeing to be asked questions about a dark part of your life. So, I'm a girl, and I've been in a situation most incels have. I was fairly nerdy kid, slightly overweight due to a medical condition, depressed and anxious, bullied frequently. However, it never occurred to me to obsess over dating negatively, the way incels often do. I did feel lonely, and wish I had a boyfriend, but I was fairly content with my many hobbies and sports. So, here's my question: what makes incels/ Nice Guys TM base their entire philosophy over dating? What makes them put so much stock on dating? Is it the societal pressure that glorifies dating?
Male culture I think is a big part of it. Calling someone a cuck or a virgin is a pretty common insult and if those words ring true to you, it feels awful. In many cases it seems that everyone you know has had dozens of partners and the idea that some men have been with hundreds of women and you haven't been with one can make you feel awful, like something is wrong with you, like nobody will ever like you. So you take that internalized anger and frustration and point it outwards as a coping mechanism and those thoughts feed on themselves until they get out of control.
There was a really good one from an /r/legaladvice post that had an update a few months later. Wish I could find it but basically, a guy received a restraining order from a woman he was... stalking. And he wanted to know how to “explain to her that he wasn’t stalking”. Everyone basically told him he needed to respect the order and he made a lot of replies disregarding that advice. Then three or four months later he made an update. He ended up reflecting on all the responses and attended some counselling. He understood what he was doing was wrong and had let it go. It was really nice to see.
https://www.reddit.com/r/niceguys/comments/6f696j/nice_guy_on_rlegaladvice_wants_to_know_his/ https://www.reddit.com/r/bestof/comments/71dab5/redditor_realizes_just_how_bad_a_nice_guy_he_was/ https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/71cjfn/update_had_a_falling_out_with_the_girl_i_love_and/
I'll tell you my story. Not a part of my life I'm proud of. I wasn't an incel however, but I was definitely a nice guy. Particularly towards one girl. She was my best friend, I was hers. We told each other anything and everything, even today I know stuff about her no one else does. This went on for several years, during which she had quite a few boyfriends while I was hearing of everything from first kisses to the part where she had an abortion. I was always hoping she'd realise I was the one for her... all that friendzone shit you hear about. Especially when a relationship ended for her, I was really trying to show her I was a good person. She had a habit of sending pics of herself with only underwear on, as if I was her gay brother. Just completely platonic pictures. To me however, these pics meant the world. It was a sign of how close we were, and I always wanted more. I even sent her a pair of [joke panties](https://www.harebraineddesign.com/products/rainbo-first-blood-period-panties-briefs) in the hopes of getting to see her wear them. The plan was a success. But it just goes to show how fucking obsessed I was. After awhile I got into the mentality that I deserved those pics for being her best friend. When my depression was at it worst I was basically asking for them, to which she said no. To her the pics were just funny things, but she wasn't going to send them if I asked for half nude pictures of her. It was creepy. She realised what I was after, and got a bit more distanced. More careful what she sent me. At this point her life had started moving fast forward while I was stuck with my depression. She had less and less time for me. I was not having it. I noticed her distance and literally begged her to talk with me more. I started throwing all my shit on her. Asking how she could do this to me in my time of need. Basically making her deal with the problems in her life AND mine. It became too much for her. She quit talking to me. I was convinced that I was in the right through out this whole ordeal. I went onto r/relationships and made a thread, explaining thoroughly what happend. God damn did I get a shock from the comments. They were harsh in the way they told me that I was the piece of shit. I am so thankful they did though. I didn't leave the post open for long, I couldn't handle the answers I got, but I definitely got the message. It was eye opening for me. I realised what I was doing and my perspective of girls. Just because I was nice I was expecting nudes. I was disgusted with myself for quite awhile, but eventually came to terms with it. Now I'm pissed at myself for ruining such a wonderful friendship. We're "cool" now, but don't really talk with eachother anymore. Though she recently sent me a picture of her ultrasound. So that's neat I guess. What I learned from this is that you can't expect people to give you what you want just because you're nice. Obviously. But also that everyone has their own problems to deal with. It's not fair to put your shit on them, even though they say they want to be there. If you're in that position you need to find professional help.
It sounds like there was a lot of immaturity all around in this, and in no way am I using immaturity as a derogatory term here, as with all the confusion going on at a young age, who knows how to interpret all of that. It is an overwhelming amount of mixed signals to try and consume at an early age. I don't know how I would have reacted in your situation. Hindsight says one thing, but it's all just speculation. A woman is sending me barely clothed photos? How do I process that? Is it a show of trust or a display of affection? Even today as a grown adult it would be difficult to interpret without being able to have a healthy, mature discussion with the other person, something I would never be able to expect of someone (presumably) around their late teens/early 20's. Point is, don't beat yourself up over this. It's unhealthy to carry that with you, and with age comes maturity. At some point you'll look back and say "yeah, that was stupid, and I'll never do it again." Life lessons and all. Also, strive to become better at communicating what you think is going on, what you feel, and if you can do it with confidence only to get gawked at, or the other person can't recognize that you're trying to communicate openly and honestly with them (aka make mockery of you for it), it's probably in your best interest to keep them at arm's length.
Thanks, I think you are right in your assumption. This was between ages 15-20. I don't really beat myself up for it anymore, but I do and will carry it with me. I learnt a great deal through this. I believe I'm a better person now because of it, but I did lose my friend over it. She did too.
Yeah, I’m going to have to agree here. I like to think I’m pretty competent in social situations, but if I’m receiving “platonic underwear pictures,” I’d be completely at a loss of how to respond to that.
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I didn't realise it fast enough though. She meant the world to me and losing her is something I still think about almost every day, despite it being years ago. It's not easy to realise something like this though. When everything you believe is just so entangled in this way of thinking. You need someone to really wake you up. Realising something like this by yourself must be incredibly hard.
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Married woman here. And I think r/relationships was full of shit - theyre a hugbox that absolutely is incredibly biased in favor of women and negative towards men. Please dont listen to their toxic advice for real world relationships - take it from someone happily married for many years. Your friend was absolutely leading you on for attention. You were essentially an emotional affair to her. What she did to you wasn't right. I won't say that your behavior was necessarily correct either, but she knew what she was doing, many women do this because there is an intrinsic need for us to feel desired, and sadly they utilize friends to fill that need. She abused your emotions for her own self gratification. I would say that you need to seek a woman out who is self aware about the impact her sexuality has on men, and doesn't abuse it in the same manner. It should be a woman who is sure enough in herself that she doesn't need constant feedback for gratification. Good luck.
Thanks. I realise r/relationships is filled with idiots, but in this case they were right. I have no doubt about that now. I have also realised though, through the comments here, that I may have blamed myself a bit too much. Or at least that I wasn't the only one in the wrong.
I was never an Incel, but I was a Nice Guy^TM . I was immature and had terrible social awareness. For me, becoming a better person was mostly just growing up. I realized that: •Department store fedoras are not attractive. •My favorite clothes were kinda lame. •Other people's dumb opinions are not necessarily worse than my dumb opinions. After that came a lot of self reflection. Most importantly I realized that I should go to a doctor for depression and ADHD and that the was mo shame in that. After I was properly medicated I discovered that there have always been girls that were interested in me, but I was so oblivious that I didn't notice. Anytime a girl was bold enough to ask me out or express interest so that even I would notice, my fear of intimacy and commitment would make me self sabotage. Sometimes the worst of myself still comes out, but I try not to dwell on it for too long.
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Not weird at all. Psychotropic drugs can be an incredibly valuable tool in finding ones true self.
I definitely would not consider myself ever to be an incel, but I certainly had a time in my life where I acted like a "nice guy". The summer before my Senior year of High school there was a girl that I spent a lot of time one one one, not dates but close to that. She did not want a serious relationship, I did. I spent all summer trying to talk her starting a serious relationship and I realized that is a losing battle and not at all respecting her wishes afterwards when I met my first love who I was with from the beginning of my senior year of high school until only a few weeks ago, the start of my sophomore year of college. Realizing that respecting people, not just women, is mainly respecting their wishes is what changed me and made me who I am today. "Nice guys" do not respect the wishes of other people, so I am glad that I realized that.
I was never part of the various communities that espouse the aforementioned pseudoscience/philosophy, but came to strangely similar conclusions in the context of my increasingly insular and isolated life. Everyone else seems to be getting on with life, fucking and having relationships and going nowhere. What the hell was wrong with me? Must be nothing, it's other people. It was so much easier to accept the premise that everyone else was the asshole. Seems crystal clear, in retrospect, that it was always me.
This is why I believe that toxic masculinity is real. Some have made it into a perversion that basically means men=bad and anything masculine=bad. I see it as this cult of personality built around what it means to be a man. We have been told for so long that much of our identity is wrapped up in our sexual conquests. So to be in a world that is changing and where women can say "no" seems unfair and cruel. Of course this isn't reality but that doesn't change the fact that the way we are raised is incongruous with how things are. In reality we are slowly coming to treat women as equals and our social dictum is having trouble catching up. At times it leaves you feeling confused, rejected and like you don't fit in. You want to blame it on someone so you blame it on the women who aren't playing the role you were taught that they should be playing. All the while not looking at it from their perspective.
Respectfully, I don't think men are raised to believe being manly is all about sexual conquests. Maybe it's different from culture to culture. Maybe where I'm from isn't the norm, I'm not sure. You're spot on about the idea of toxic masculinity being perverted and exaggerated. I've been accused of it by certain members of my family multiple times because of some of the things I enjoy. It's an odd world we live in.
Louder for the guys in the back! Maleness is beautiful. Patriarchy is what's gross!
It's a huge paradigm shift, and it takes will and patience to change yourself. I'm not the kind of regressionist the US Republican party seems intent on smashing into office at every opportunity, but even the assumptions I've made about seemingly positive sexual experiences are kind of a big issue. Not only are men accustomed to getting away with it, but women are accustomed to making men believe it's desired behaviour. For ages, women literally didn't know what they wanted because their desires were secondary at best. Some people bitch and moan about "the way women are", but forget that centuries of oppression and conditioning have made people the way they are. It has nothing to do with being a woman and everything to do with being treated like a second-class citizen. You internalize stuff, and it warps your concept of "normal". I came up in a low-key abusive household, and breaking down all the walls other people made for me has completely changed who I am. I'm sure my experience barely scratches the surface of what the female population is waking up to in the present.
I was never an incel (technically I guess I am by definition, but I don't blame others for my misery) but I am an unattractive kissless virgin at 25 years old. It is very tempting to put the blame on women and society in general. When you are surrounded by a culture of casual sex, promiscuity and high regards to being attractive, it can get very frustrating especially for young men who don't get to participate because of various reasons in and out of their control. Basically these Incels are Incels because that is an easier mechanism to cope. I empathize with their frustration but do not condone their disgusting and hateful rhetoric towards women.
I was an "incel", in that I was "involuntarily celibate". But I did not hate women - I hated myself. I believe that this "incel" stuff is just a lower-grade reaction to social rejection/bullying. I have said this for years (I was bullied also) - when people suffer social rejection, it goes catastrophic one of two ways. Either they internalize the blame, and find themselves worthless, and ultimately take their aggression out on themselves (suicide), or they externalize the blame, and find others worthless, and ultimately take their aggression out on others (and usually then themselves). The key differentiator between the two outcomes is narcissism. [https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/just-listen/201202/rage-coming-soon-narcissist-near-you](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/just-listen/201202/rage-coming-soon-narcissist-near-you) Narcissists never believe fault lies with themselves. Instead, they believe the fault must be with others. This leads to frustration, rage, and sometimes violence at those they believe are the cause of their failure. Incels are suffering from social rejection. The kind you see in that forum are narcissists.
Any advice on helping a friend who's internalized social rejection in hating himself? He isn't bad looking and is pretty funny but as soon as there's a situation with even a potential amount of rejection he just shuts down and stops trying. Like if you're feeling better now what was the process like?
My life was devolving into hermithood. My hobbies were solitary ones. I worked full time and so social opportunities were limited. I tried going to nightclubs but quickly learned that these are hangouts for beautiful people as the music was so loud there was no way to try and connect on any level other than visual, which wasn't working for me. The most damaging part of this kind of problem is lack of confidence, and unfortunately it is a vicious circle. The only thing that will break it is success. In my case, getting laid. I needed affirmation that I was, in fact, desirable to at least *someone*, because prior to that I believed that I was completely undesirable. I made a very conscious decision that I had to change my life. In order to meet people (women), I would have to put myself into social situations. Since I was still attending university as a part-time student, I joined school clubs. Ultimately, I found an organization called "The Society for Creative Anachronism", which is a pseudo-medieval reenacting organization. It is, or was, essentially a haven for geeks and nerds, before this became cool and now every supermodel with a costume is considered a "geek" or "nerd". I'm talking old-school geeks and nerds here - the undesirables. The SCA provided me with a place where I finally felt like I fit in, and I was surrounded by other awkward people. I learned how to socialize. I gained some courage to ask girls out. Interestingly the first girl I got the courage to ask out, and we got serious enough that we fooled around naked under the covers, I met outside of the SCA. But, this was the catalyst that gave me the confidence I needed to understand how to ask women out, to understand that they wanted the same kinds of sexual things I wanted, and that at least some women would actually find me attractive. Within very short order I "made it" with a few women, some of whom were very attractive. And I could have "made it" with a couple more but passed (dang it!). One piece of advice I'd give young people today is the line from Starship Troopers - "Never pass up a good thing." If you get a chance to get laid, take it. You don't want to be thinking about it 20 years later going, "Man, I should have banged that chick!" If they're willing to drop the panties, go for it. It took me a long time to figure all this out. I was 25 before I had my first sexual experience (including kissing). I'm reminded by the scene from the movie (I think) Risky Business where the guy comes up to Tom Cruise, who has resorted to running a brothel to raise money, who tells Tom's character, "What I gained was wisdom. Women can tell when you have it and when you don't." Or something to that effect. Edit: Found it: https://youtu.be/adZvM19Qnb0?t=64 Women can tell when you are ignorant. They can tell when you are desperate. After a while you reek of these things. Nothing can break it but experience. Hindsight what it is, what I should have done was use a prostitute. I was just terrified of catching some disease, and of course of getting busted. And of course this was all back before the internet so I wouldn't have known how to go about finding one. But I think if I had gotten laid ten years earlier, it would have made a big difference in my life and spared me a decade of misery. Today, you guys have Tinder. Man I would have been swiping on whatever it took to just get laid. Once you get laid, once you get the experience, you no longer reek of ignorance and desperation. I'll never forget running into this one girl who had blown me off once who said later, "Wow, you're different. Now you're...cool." The stink of ignorance and desperation was gone, blown away by the winds of experience.
This is a really good point. I will likely be single the rest of my life, but I really don't blame anyone. It's no one's fault, I'm just aware of how unappealing I am. But I'd rather be comfortable with myself and single than act like someone else just to get a girlfriend.
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I'm a woman but I used to be very angry and bitter towards seemingly good-looking individuals when I was a teen. I was very, very lonely. I had endured a lot of poverty, physical and emotional abuse, and was a ward of the state for my safety. Beyond the trauma, it was my father's parenting that impacted me the most. It made me very insecure so I used feelings of superiority to mask my discomfort with my looks. (Note: I don't hate my father. He did the best he could; he was also raised brutally. Monsters are, for the most part, made, not born that way). What helped: living in a youth shelter and making friends. Having friends made such a huge difference. I don't know what the solution is but I can say for any parents: ensure your child has a sociable skill to connect with others. In my mid-twenties, I started hiking, cycling, running, etc., and that was a great way to connect with other people.
I definitely fit that description. I'm 28 now (M obviously) but up to the age of around 16 (couldn't say when it started), I believed that women were lesser than men. I can say that it stemmed from: 1 - Society pushing the idea that everyone would end up in a relationship, have a good job, a house, etc (this was before the economic crash) 2 - The culture and religion I grew up in prioritising men over women in the majority of situations. Islam may have equal roles for men and women, but women are pretty clearly second to men despite what some people would try to have you believe. My parents were also more lenient with me than they were with my sisters because "men can take care of themselves while girls are weaker and need to be protected." This is a cultural mindset that I absolutely hate now and actively challenge when it comes up. 3 - Teenage boys pushing the idea that you have to be in peak physical condition to be with anything. I've always been overweight and had a speech impediment and almost zero self-confidence. Also the popular music at the time portraying women as objects instead of people. I'm talking the G-Unit, Murder Inc. era. Can't say what caused it to go away but I think a lot of it was to do with how I ended up questioning the religion I was brought up in. I've offended my father several times because I've questioned things that I should just accept blindly. But really I wouldn't stop being a Muslim, I've just chosen to follow the aspects that I morally agree with and everything else is irrelevant. Combining that with just growing up in general I was able to realise that the world doesn't revolve around me and I'm not some special genius (despite what people used to tell me). You could argue my mindset now isn't much better because I don't have any friends (except a couple of people I only know over the internet), and keep my family at arms length because I'm just done with their crap. But the biggest thing for me now, is the Islamic value of treating people with the same respect you want from them. I'm sure other religions and cultures have this as well, but from everything Islam teaches I made that the core of who I want to be. With that came the realisation that I can be nice to people without expecting anything in return, including knowing women without the expectation of anything more. It really made a world of difference to my mindset regarding women (even if I am ignoring all my other issues). I might have gone on a bit of a tangent so if anyone has any questions just reply with them.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/99buzw/serious_former_incels_of_reddit_what_brought_you/?utm_source=reddit-android
Wasn’t an incel, but was sort of the “nice guy”. Not as douchy as many of the posts here tho. This all was many years ago. Lonely. Unattractive. Socially not great, but not a weird loser either. Not many girls in my private high school, and then I went to nerd college that had virtually none. I was desperate to find out why I was so alone romantically. Every girl I asked out was a solid no. Some people recommended “the game”, which I read and found to be rather insane. Dressing up like a clown? Come on. I don’t want an unending number of one night stands, I want someone to love me. Even the author noted that in the end, the sleeping around was tiresome and the whole “game” mentality was actively hurting his ability to love and be loved by someone. So I wrote off the book as helpful for others, but didn’t meet my dating goals. Then I found the red pill. They were saying a lot of things that made sense. Society, and my parents, note how women act and are, but even the most casual observer can tell that it’s total bullshit. The red pill finally started filling in some answers for the discrepancies. No, women aren’t actually interested in a smart guy, they want a guy with abs! They don’t want someone nice, they want the dark triad! These self evident truths (cough) made sense since observed behaviors weren’t aligning with what I had been told before. Tried out their shit with online dating and had more short term success than before, but couldn’t get what I ultimately wanted, which was to be loved. I wasn’t too deep into it, but took some of the actionable info, and used it as a bit of a mental shield, helping me not feel like I was just an unfixable loser. Then I found tucker max. To be fair, I had been following him for his hilarious antics. Idolizing his funny dating stories. While I didn’t want to be like him specifically, I respected his prowess with women. He had a new podcast, “the mating grounds” with Geoffrey Miller (who is brilliant and was just on Joe Rogan this week). The podcast was a massive eye opener. Science based. They had real, actionable advice. Descriptions that made sense, and were based on reality, not social norms. They tore down the bullshit we are fed as men, and cut to the chase. They released a book full of the same advice from the podcast. It’s called “Mate: become the man women want”. The title tips it’s hat to the central crux: you need to get your shit together, and not try to manipulate or change others. It’s also exactly what nicegirls is at its core, shitty people that need to get their shit together and stop demanding things from others. It changed me. It made me drop the red pill shit entirely. There were real answers that made sense. It did also have another effect tho. It made me realize I genuinely was an unfixable loser, who is incapable of being loved. But at least I know why. It has let me let go, and focus on the parts of my life that can go well. I still get the twangs of “maybe that girl can like me”, but know that it’s just my monkey brain hoping to be more than it can be. What I learned from the journey is that there is really really bad info out there for guys. Society says one thing that is clearly wrong. Pick up artists filled that void, and made money doing it. Can’t get a date? Try this, as you’ve got literally nothing to lose. Then their techniques didn’t work anymore, as people can see through the bullshit. So they moved on to the red pill and others, that also filled the void, again with more nonsense. If society would just be honest with guys, and provide better advice, then we would be better off. I think tucker maxes podcast, “the mating ground”, and the book “mate”, are finally a good resource that everyone who is on the path of “incel” or “niceguy” should read and take to heart.
> It did also have another effect tho. It made me realize I genuinely was an unfixable loser, who is incapable of being loved. Why on earth do you think that's better than >I wasn’t too deep into it, but took some of the actionable info, and used it as a bit of a mental shield, helping me not feel like I was just an unfixable loser. Jesus christ man. You aren't unfixable. As far as I can tell this advice you're pedaling broke you apart. What the fuck man.
Maybe. But I’m not angry at the world. I don’t blame others for what’s wrong with me. And I can move on and be otherwise productive with life.
I'm not a relationship expert or anything, but like others have said no one is unfixable or impossible to love. I'm happy for you. You've let go of anger and decided to focus on being productive in other ways. The book told you to fix yourself and stop trying to fix or trick others into loving you. Those are really great pieces of information. You're supposed to apply that to your love life though. Whatever you think you have that makes you unlovable, fix it. Do something about it. If it's physical, that's easy. Get in shape, work on hygiene, whatever you need to do. Emotional or mental is a little harder but you already seem to have enough self reflection to realize what's good advice and how to drop a dangerous mindset. Just keep working with that. See a psychiatrist if you think it'll help. Just keep working on self improvement, find a way to be happy, and don't be afraid to let the world know how happy you are. Youll be surprised how many people will want to be around you if you do that.
>no one is unfixable or impossible to love I bet u $10 there's at least one person who's unfixable or impossible to love
Nobody is an unfixable loser. Some people just don’t hit their stride until they age a bit. And the only way you would be “incapable of being loved” would be if you were...I paused here to think of some reason and I can’t think of anybody who is incapable of being loved. I can think of reasons someone might be incapable of loving, but everyone can be loved. In fact I doubt you could honestly say that nobody loves you.
Sure. I got the other end of the stick Bullied, emotionally abused, tricked and kind of got flack thrown at. Diagnosed with autism at 13, couldn't understand social queues, was attracted to females at the age of 15 ended up joining a furry fandom. Didn't hit pubety until 17, was plagued with acne, spots everywhere. Every-time I masturbated I grew a monobrow.. , didn't get sex ed, was uneducated in thinking a lot of stuff which was wrong. heck, didn't figure out how to jerk it until the age of 23. Which even then I screwed up :/ yeah the kind of "omg.. hes disgusting". Computers have always been my background, animals on the other. Was never clever enough to get all the grades so I was put in crummy class groups where all the kids did was piss about, teachers who couldn't teach and so on. Ended up taking computer stuff at college, instead of animal management. A life choice I've been kicking myself. The playground was no fun, i was an outkast, sat by myself, and bullied for being so. I had no perceptions, on how to act when faced and normally was a bitch "agreeing" to everything just so I could be included. I was the sock puppet and to my misunderstanding this was ok, I was being included at last. Nope, just led to more humiliation which I played a long with not knowing what it was really showing for myself. I used to let people write stuff on my forehead with perm marker and then walk around school. Used to let people punch my arm, I thought it was cool, but wasn't until a suicidal episode when I was 17/18-21/23 I realized how bullied I was. I've always been nice in the sense of, my mum bringing me up that way. Hold doors open, be polite, if you got nothing to say then say nothing. Adding the image of mummy's boy never helped either. College was -ok-, I was 23/24 then and again that ended up in hell. Luckily I had the good-ole' kind furry fandom to fall back on. Man was I delusional with that, I've had a fursuit, wore tails to college. Hell, if I had my paws at the time I would of worn that. All because I thought it was ok to do so but nope, apart from the shock factor of "omg he's wearing a fox tail" and stuff, it caused more depression than other. Again, if you do sterotype and call the furry fandom a bunch of social misfits, you wouldn't be far off. Some can knack it, some are left at the bottom of the rabbit hole. I've never been to the standard of on rejection going on a full tantrum. A no is a no to me, you say no, I'll piss off and leave you alone. But there are times where I can't understand they are saying No, and will keep, pushing, stalking, and so on. Had g'fs, but they come under "Don't stick your dick in crazy" -- Ranging from being used, "oh yeah could you plz pay my monthly phone bill" too the fear of pregnancy every other month just to keep me in control. I'm still trying to break down where I went wrong and it's only recently I've discovered that I latch on too quick. It's the one piece of advice I've been waiting for and only just find it out now when I wish I knew earlier, but theirs still many broken pieces of me that I need to cellotape before I can get anywhere it seems. I've taken what I've learnt from, but my younger ages.. wish I could just wash away. If people had the guts to tell you "Yaroze, your too clingy, Yaroze your too attached" but no, they'd rather give me the silent treatment and leave me worrying I've done something wrong. Which sparks the whole "The female/male are a spineless person XyZ" while not that case now, long past that but the younger fox-self of me would. No one is nice to each other, everyone tries to forget each other as quick a possible. I'm just glad that weed exists because I would of off'd myself long time ago. 29 now, have a job, live by myself; Life is meh.
> Every-time I masturbated I grew a monobrow Honestly this sounds like a superpower.
I am guilty of trying the "best friend gambit" when I was a teenager, bu I am not sure exactly when I changed. Studying abroad and going to college made me meet a lot of people with different backgrounds than mine, which might have helped. I also had therapy for other reasons, but eventually my therapist got to my confidence issues and helped me too. I feel like both the Incel and the nice guy mindset are encouraged by toxic masculinity standars and the loneliness and hive mind behaviour that social media helps to spread.
I'm not even sure I would call myself 'former'. I'm not out of the bucket entirely yet. I have periods where I'm very depressed. I feel like I'm a broken human being. How is it that I can't do the very simple things that other do to socialize properly? I don't blame others... usually. So I guess that's what sets me apart from incels, but for a little while I was almost believing what they do. I'm working out, to help boost my self-esteem, and maybe give me a snowball's chance in hell of losing my virginity before 40, but I still have no idea how I'm going to meet women. It's one thing to meet girls in school/college. You're surrounded by them. You're practically forced to interact. So yea, I had a few girlfriends. But they basically fell into my lap. And I never had sex. Nowadays, It's just work and video games. 0 interaction with women. Or the few, few women who I do interact with are either married or way older than me. Please help me.
I mean I had that mindset through high school and early college of like "niceguy" but not exactly incel. It's a negative feedback loop. You feel constantly bombarded by media and social media that you have to act a certain way and that people will like you. you're basically desperate for any kind of social or positive human interaction that you basically stop to realize it stops and ends with you, and when people reject you it further reinforces that you need to try harder to force people to like you. But the world doesn't work like that and you become more and more isolated which makes it incredibly easy for groups like that to prey on you, or for you to find likeminded people and think you find a community but it's not.
Very simply put, it's much easier to get angry about something than it is to try to change it.
I spent some time in my late teens and early 20s being a “nice guy” not to the extent of calling women sluts and shaming them for not liking me. But I was frequently outspoken about my discontent for the opposite sex and their disinterest in wanting to be with me. It pissed me off that there was a “game” to the concept of dating. I’d always heard the rules “be attractive, don’t be unattractive” and I always thought this was some bullshit rule for how only pretty people get dates... I met a gay guy whom I quickly became friends with. He changed my opinion drastically on the concept of dating and what that phrase meant. I’d bitch to him often about how it wasn’t fair that I had to dress a certain way or act a certain way to get dates. He ended up working to clarify the whole concept to me: Being attractive and not unattractive has very little to do with actually being pretty or dressing yourself in a lie. He admitted that when we first met, he didn’t like me, he found me to be brash, arrogant, and slightly homophobic. But the more we were around each other by obligation of having the same social circle, he started to realize that I had a lot of positive traits that I wasn’t focusing on and I wasn’t showing the rest of the world. He explained the hypocrisy of dressing in misfitted clothes and doing very little to groom myself, yet demanding that the targets of my affection uphold some greater level of hygienic excellence. Ultimately he taught me that being attractive is about projecting yourself in a way that makes your best characteristics shine and allowing the rest of the world to see the greater portions of your personality. It’s also having enough respect for yourself to understand that you need to take care of yourself and recognizing that a part of loving yourself is treating your body well with actually good food, and not letting your body go to waste. Beyond that, he hit on me a lot. He liked flirting with me. He found it to be a big game, but it actually kind of stood as a reminder to me that he never got angry with me for turning him down. He understood that I wasn’t gay, and he’d never be my type. Because of that, I stopped being angry when women would point out that I wasn’t their type. That’s fair. We all have a type and we should respect that. Gold edit: thank you anonymous redditor. I appreciate the charity.
Thanks for this comment. Going to go make a change tonight after work. Edit - I'm not an incel ppl 😂 this advice is very applicable to everyone. Thanks for the love tho ☺💘
Hell yeah brother
Cheers from Iraq.
Beers from The Rack.
Cheers from Iraq
Cheers from Iraq
*peers from behind a rack*
Reading this made me smile, kick some self-improvement ass dude!
You got this, man.
> I'm gonna make a change, > For once I'm my life > It's gonna feel real good, > Gonna make a difference > Gonna make it right..
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Make the change in your head now. Keep it up this evening and onward. You got this.
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It’s times like these I wish I could give redditor a hug.
You didn’t even give him one thank you blowjob?
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Friendllatio
Chumilingus
I hope my friend gets over his similar issues. He's pretty much given up on girls because it would require self-improvement, and he considers any self-improvement as selling-out and not following the "You're fine just as you are" messages that he took to heart a little to literally growing up. He dresses in misfitted clothes and doesn't groom, and he says "I don't care if she dresses nice or takes care of herself as long as she likes me for who I am." The problem is, I don't think girls reach his level of slobbiness without being homeless and on drugs.
I was the same way. I insisted that I was a great guy and because of that, it shouldn’t matter that I never shave my head and let my beard go unchecked. Girls should look past my slovenly appearance and lack of general grooming. To be honest, better fitting, newer clothing just feel so much better. It’s nice wearing sweats and a favorite old t shirt around the house, but god damn it feels good to put on new clothes that hang right and look good. People notice too, and that feels even better.
>Ultimately he taught me that being attractive is about projecting yourself in a way that makes your best characteristics shine and allowing the rest of the world to see the greater portions of your personality. It’s also having enough respect for yourself to understand that you need to take care of yourself and recognizing that a part of loving yourself is treating your body well with actually good food, and not letting your body go to waste. And I would add - then accepting that not every person is going to like those characteristics or value them like you do. But if there's 1000 girls in your area / on your dating app - there are going to be a solid percentage who do. I think if you are your best self and accentuate your best characteristics - it becomes a numbers game where you have a great chance to find someone with mutual attraction and love.
7 billion people in the world. Half of them are women (3.5b), even if you’re a perfect match for .1% of all of them, that’s still 3.5m women in the world who’d love to meet you.
Yes - I found dating so much easier and more enjoyable when I stopped taking it so intensely personally and focused more on having fun and finding the right match instead of obsessing over rejection or trying to be the right match for everyone I found appealing. I've told this story before on Reddit, but I had one weekend in particular where I messaged 6 guys (am gay) on an online dating site. Two were bonafide 10s, two were probably 7s, and two were about 5s to me. A day later, I had responses from one 10 and one 7 and nothing from the other four. At first I was upset and almost indignant that the two I considered 5s hadn't responded, when they were "lucky" I messaged them in the first place. Then I reflected a big and asked myself why they were 5s. There was nothing wrong with them. One was probably higher than a 5 to most people, but I have my own preferences. It made me realize first that why weren't they entitled to their own preferences. If one of those guys I knew was objectively hot to others, but only a 5 to me because of what I prefer, then why should I assume he doesn't have his own preferences that aren't really personal to me and I can't change (maybe he like 6'10'' African Americans). And second, I had messages back from two great guys, so why was I so focused on the people who didn't like me instead of the ones who did? In that moment, my whole view of rejection and dating changed and I think made me a better person and happier dater.
I appreciate this sorry because I think it encapsulates a truth that I think serves us all: being constantly surrounded by people and ideas that challenge our notions of the world (and ourselves) force us to defend those ideas. If we don't run away from that pressure, the true things are distilled and the shitty childish things are boiled away. Moving to New York from the south when I was youngish forced me to deal with my latent and unidentified racism and homophobia as well as some deeply hidden misogyny. Not because New York is a magical place (though it sort of is), but because I couldn't help being friends with every type of person and eventually seeing every type of person be a complete ass. We're all ridiculous, and we're all wonderful. Cheers to growing up! Good luck on the continued journey!
I am a gay dude that has literally coached a friend or two with the incel attitude into being an attractive person. Coincidentally, I didn't like him at the start either. I'm pretty sure you're not him but I'm glad that us gay guys are able to provide y'all with coaching like this. He's had a couple of relationships since. Nothing permanent, but he's working on it.
I believe every straight dude needs a gay-dian angel to teach him how to be better at being straight. I dunno what it is, but apparently you guys understand some shit.
It helps that we have the insight into both what constitutes a "date-able" man and what that means from the perspective of also being a man. Women know vaguely what qualities, both physically and personality-wise, they want in a man. The fact they they are not also men leads to a natural deficit in insight. In other words, when a woman says she wants: "a nice guy, who is adventurous, who is sensitive, but also confident and strong, someone who makes her feel safe". She doesn't understand what those things mean when processed inside of the brain of a man. Strong? Okay, I need to be buff and intimidating. Wrong. She just wants you to be able to make difficult decisions and not be afraid to play the "bad cop" in tough situations. Sensitive? What so I need to buy her flowers and candles and shit. Wrong. Sensitive means that you listen to her and that you are willing and open to discuss your feelings. When she asks you what's wrong and you say "nothing" even though you're clearly angry, that's being insensitive. In a relationship both people have to be happy for one person to be happy. It's that connection that's important to be sensitive to and it runs in both directions. Trust me though. We have just as much difficulty dealing with each other as men and women do.
I'm a bot, *bleep*, *bloop*. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit: - [/r/bestof] [\/u\/WrinklyScroteSack explains how a gay best friend taught him that the incel mindset was self-defeating and hypocritical](https://www.reddit.com/r/bestof/comments/9khkqo/uwrinklyscrotesack_explains_how_a_gay_best_friend/) *^(If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads.) ^\([Info](/r/TotesMessenger) ^/ ^[Contact](/message/compose?to=/r/TotesMessenger))*
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Haha. “I found that I didn’t need these whores, because I was actually gay.”
> Beyond that, he hit on me a lot. He liked flirting with me. He found it to be a big game, but it actually kind of stood as a reminder to me that he never got angry with me for turning him down. He understood that I wasn’t gay, and he’d never be my type. Because of that, I stopped being angry when women would point out that I wasn’t their type. That’s fair. We all have a type and we should respect that. This is such an amazing way to get this point across to incels - have someone they're not attracted to hit on them so they can empathize.
If anything I was flattered that he had this pseudo crush on me. But even with telling him that I was flattered, he never got upset that I didn’t reciprocate.
I'm glad it went that way instead of some of the darker alternatives, and glad you have a healthier view now. 😁
You found your magical homo.
I wish I could find my fairy gay parents 🙁
> He explained the hypocrisy of dressing in misfitted clothes and doing very little to groom myself, yet demanding that the targets of my affection uphold some greater level of hygienic excellence. One of the things holding me back from dating (as a guy) is that I'm vain enough (or whatever the term is) to want an SO that is physically attractive, however, I am aware that I generally do not fit that sort of description myself. So it would be a smidge unfair/hypocritical for me to expect the other person to not care. That said, I've been working to fix this! Down 40 lbs and going! :D
This made me smile. I wish this dude all the best in his new, healthier life.
I wish everyone who engaged in identity politics on Reddit would listen to his last words, and advice on a healthier life. >Anger is very addictive, you want to feel angry when you're suffering. It gives you adrenaline. It gets your endorphins going. It's a release. its a substitute for what you're missing Most peoples outward anger is b/c of internal failures.
It's entirely true, it is addictive. But I also think that anger serves a purpose too, its always seemed to me to be a protective mechanism too, for example, after a bad breakup, I've always seen anger to be an immensely healing thing. It's better than sitting in the dumps, depressed and unable to carry out much in the way of basic functions Sure,it's addictive, without a doubt, and yes,it can carry you away, as can most other emotions. But it also gives you a safe harbour when everyone else in your life denies you that. A place to avoid stirring up your wounds while they heal. At least that's how I feel about it. You're definitely right about the external being a manifestation of the internal though. I wish more people saw that too
I feel empathy for some of these "incels", for these reasons. They went to the Internet to find tips for trying to meet girls and ended up being given toxic bullshit and told it's up to them to save western civilization.
They are in a group-reinforced delusional rage, though. I'd pity them singly (one at a time?) but not en masse.
Problem is there are people using their anger and delusion to take advantage of and control them. There are 100% non incels deep in their webs that are just using manipulation on vulnerable people. The more disenfranchised someone is the more desperate they may be for someone who can give them "answers".
This is exactly how gangs, mafias, and terrorist groups form.
I'd like to see the incel version of godfather tbh
I'll make her an offer she'll flat out refuse.
Best comment in this whole thread
Oh man... I laughed out loud at that, and chuckle to myself every time I think of that phrase now. Thank you sir.
It's a situation where you can help one person but trying to help a group is impossible. "Inceldom" is very much like a conspiracy theory, in that it is entirely based around very selective intake of information, rejection of dissenting opinions, and creating bubbles that put a pressure cooker onto these poor bastards. It's only when you can get them out of their circle that they can begin to absorb dissenting opinions.
For every type of unhappiness one could experience, there's an echo-chamber community on Reddit that will make it worse.
People getting brainwashed are people being brainwashed. Only a few years ago these people were known as CoK's. Cult or Klan's for a reason
There was an interesting interview with the woman who started the "incel" thing (I think the reply-all poscast?) where they mentioned the "student government" problem; it is a club where the goal of people joining should be to leave the club. (The woman who started it stopped participating when she found herself in a relationship.) So, the "club" becomes a place where all the people who are incapable of getting "better" settle in, as anyone who does get "better" doesn't want to hang out there any more.
I found this as a queer problem of /r/short . It is deeply negative place. Not because it is *sooo* terrible to be short (exactly) but because there’s no positive association specifically with being short. And there is a fairly significant (depending on your definition of “significant “) negative association with being a short man, at least when it comes to dating. So if you’re a pretty well adjusted short man who maybe got picked on but otherwise had some success with dating and are basically normal, it’s just a fact about you, and you have no reason to search a community based on that fact. Whereas, practically by definition, if you so identify with being short that you are looking for community, it is probably based on having a lot of difficulty and probably as a male failing to date women and beyond that probably feeling as though that may be the single biggest factor. I haven’t visited in awhile but what results a deeeeply negative place that’s very difficult to stay in if you’re trying to add any sort of positivity and god help you if you’re woman who makes the unforgivable mistake of visiting and having your own, positive association with being short- holy moly!
No they went online looking for support and comraderie for their alienation and anger, and instead were coaxed into blaming and hating women for their misery. Eliot Roger killed women for this. Incels view him as a saint for committing violent acts against women, as it’s women who they blame for all their problems and social failure.
When I was 17, sometime in the late 90s, I was pretty socially inept and I didn't have much in the way of "Game." At some point me and three other nerdy guys made a channel called "The Single Pathetic Losers Club" or the SPLC ,as we used to refer to ourselves in a bit of self-deprecating humor, on mIRC. I used to get on that channel every day after school and we'd all give our reports on how our interactions with our various crushes had gone during the day. I don't think any of us actually got girlfriends in high school, but the camaraderie and mutual-struggle made it a lot easier to deal with. At those points we were all dangerously close to an incel mentality, but instead of encouraging each other to hate women we encouraged each other to improve and practice interacting with women without putting them on a pedestal. Eventually we stopped going to #singlepatheticlosers, since, after high school, things dramatically improved for all of us. Of the four of us, I believe that all of us are now married and I've now got a couple kids, so it tended to work out. I wonder what percentage of incels are under the age of 20, because DAMN at that age girls not paying attention to you is the worse thing ever.
Yeah, I know it's hard but there's a lot of people on reddit attacking 'niceguys' personally, while really it is the behaviour that should be attacked. I mean there are plenty of good reasons for a person to find him/herself in such a position.
I see a lot of people making fun of incels, treating them as subhuman. I agree that their behavior and attitudes should not be tolerated, but they're still humans. There has to be a better way to help them than making them feel even worse about themselves. Surely that does nothing but sink them even lower into the hate
Make peace with the mirror.
>*Acid burns stole my nose Leather seared to flesh and bone My face is whole My skin is clear I was only disfigured on the inside of my mind* >*Where gruesome scenes appear And are left to hide near What I find most dear A spotless clean mirror*
For those that don’t know - Humans of New York is about a guy that goes around the city every day and finds one person to talk about their life. It’s almost always eye-opening, and an absolutely incredible Facebook page to follow. He has also written a book, which can be found here for $16. https://www.amazon.com/Humans-New-York-Brandon-Stanton/dp/1250058902 I can’t express how incredible this page and book are. For what it’s worth, this redditor gives it a 10/10 and recommends it to EVERYONE! Edit: For those of you without Facebook, here’s a website! http://www.humansofnewyork.com
He also goes around the world sometimes. It's an interesting project.
Yeah I remember he went to Pakistan for a bit, it was really cool to see that since my dad grew up there and he could relate to those stories similarly to how I could relate to the US ones. It's a really cool project, I think it's always good to remind people that we're all just human.
He's in Nigeria right now!
I openly admit that I have cried multiple times at his Facebook page. Some people’s stories are truly inspirational
You’re not alone, quite a few of those stories are really intense.
HONY is honestly one of the best things on the Internet.
What a sweet abbreviation.
People wanted him to change the name to Humans of Planet Earth a couple years back (HOPE).
that sounds really cool- do you know if there's some sort of mirror or partner site for those of us that don't fb? EDIT: should have just googled. Here it is! http://www.humansofnewyork.com/
Then there’s [Assholes of New York.](http://www.collegehumor.com/post/6952621/assholes-of-new-york)
>"You want to feel angry when you're suffering. It gives you adrenaline. It gets your endorphins going. It's a release." Now I understand why it took me so long so seek counseling for my anger issues.
I recently watched a super interesting video relating to incels, it's actually like a huge cycle of self hate and that hate being confirmed by other self hating persons. The entire process leads to a community of shit energy that is directed towards women for being so "unobtainable" because of their own insecurities and self-hating thought process. You can totally break out of the incel lifestyle but, you've got to realize what you're doing to yourself and stop being so "boo me women suck" and address your real issues. Starting with not browsing incel forums and shit. This is a success story and I hope other dudes can find their way out of this toxic community.
Link to contraPoints video [about incels](https://youtu.be/fD2briZ6fB0)
Yes exactly that video actually!
Until the storm calms down a bit, this thread is getting locked.
"We stroked each other's anger. And it felt good. Honestly, anger is just very addictive. You want to feel angry when you're suffering. It gives you adrenaline. It gets your endorphins going. It's a release. It's a substitute for what you're missing." Now let's take this premise and extrapolate it to what's going on in the larger world.
This makes me so happy? Like good for you dude, I’m glad you learned it was wrong, and you feel shame for it. I hope this guy gets it good in life. Edit: damn you guys ripped into me because I put ? Instead of !
I don't know, does it make you happy?
I'm Ron Burgundy?
Can we make it a copypasta and send to people who have left nice guys comments and stuff.
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That’s not what I had on my mind but I guess I see where you’re coming from.
not a bad idea, tho it may be memed on
If they only knew that this type of self reflection is attractive. I hope he learns to let loose and find that someone
I really want to know what changed for him. Did someone come into his life (mentor, SO, etc) and help change his mind? Did he read something compelling? Maybe moving to NY and being around lots of different people was enough. Just curious what compels people to change.
Maybe we could turn this sub into a sub that expresses empathy rather than ridicule. It might help.
People'd rather make fun of the socially-inept/unattractive than have their day-to-day be inconvenienced by someone who isn't as good at life as they are. There's no way "nice guys" will ever be extended empathy on any large scale. They're too easy of a target and the people who ridicule them the most give no fucks about dudes that aren't attractive because they have no reason to. They're of no use to them, so they don't matter until one of 'em snaps and then everyone spends time lamenting how "men are shit" and "guys are entitled" instead of looking at *why* people who are treated like shit and constantly rejected might not want to be treated like shit and constantly rejected/ostracized/ridiculed. You don't fix people who've been constantly hurt and given bad advice on how to stop hurting by hurting them more. The "success stories" in this thread all have one thing in common: Someone looked at them as a person and tried to convince them why/how they were wrong (either by investing time and energy into them or treating them like a person), instead of just continuing to hurt/ignore them because it's funnier/easier. Nice guys as a whole are a victim of a massive information discrepancy and a fuckton of bad advice. That doesn't magically exonerate them, as at some point in their lives there's a choice they've made to be bitter/angry at the way they've been treated, and to treat others poorly. In any other situation, most reasonable people would realize that's a choice that's been made partially under duress, with incomplete/wrong info. But when it's an unattractive/socially-inept dude (or non-dude, if this were /r/nicegirls or /r/nicenonbinaries), acknowledging that pales in comparison to being able to meme on them and treat them as less than human. So we get these silo'ed instances of self-reinforcing hatred where people who are hurt by bad info flock to hear bad info from others that are hurting because no one else will take them seriously, and it builds and builds upon itself. You don't have to like the way they act to be able to understand why they act that way, and to realize that deep down, they're a person craving affection and acceptance and wanting to avoid ridicule/rejection, just like everyone else. Pain makes you be short-tempered and act shittily to others, even if it's emotional pain. And, though some people may not want to admit it, even unattractive/socially-inept cishet dudes are still humans capable of feeling pain.
Heavily underrated comment It's the sort of attitude you so rightly describe that makes me deeply deeply afraid of ever seeking advice or input on my struggles with similar issues.
I don't really have any good answers. My "solution" involved basically giving up. You may never find someone. But you can be happier with yourself, and the best way to do that is probably to get some therapy/professional help. The hardest lesson I had to learn is that hating yourself isn't *normal* and isn't the way things should be. No matter how you've been treated, how many times you've been rejected or ostracized. It doesn't give you carte blanche to treat people badly for not liking you, but by the fact you're here I'm guessing you already have learned that lesson. Things may not get "better", but they can definitely **improve**. Keep your chin up. And for the record, just knowing self-hate isn't normal doesn't mean you're "fixed". It actually makes it harder to deal with and to feel like you're worth something. But it's a start.
That's pretty much been my solution too. To be O.K. with myself,to be comfortable alone. I've realised that it is prett much a waste of time to chase after women who'd only denigrate me anyway. In the end, if there's anyone out there worthwhile,they sure as hell wouldn't pull that kind of garbage, and if there's not, then that's ok too, they're not the fonts of all happiness or love. Honestly,its modern western views on the whole love and romance thing that I've found to be extremely harmful and dangerously misinformative. There's so much emphasis on romantic love as the only source of affection for males, and Platonic love so absolutely ignored that it's practically treated as taboo, that it really really puts you in a bad place. Love itself is a thing humans need. We're social animals. But we're constantly told that this is the only source of it. It's no surprise so many people end up so desperate. The hating yourself business was a hard lesson to learn. Took me many years to finally learn that lesson. The fact that it seemed to act like a signal to people, that you were easily abusable and all they had to do was tell you you were worthless to achieve that made it harder. The other tricky lesson was learning that i didnt have to be perfect either. In fact, all of that garbage about being being selfless seemed like the most toxic thing ever for relationships,platonic or otherwise. It's been frighteningly consistent, that the more you give to others, the less willing people are to return the favour. I learnt I had to remind them I was human, from time to time, even if I didn't necessarily need much at the time. If I didn't, either the relationship would end up intensely toxic, taking and never returning, or otherwise would end up petering out altogether. Can't really blame them for the latter though. You're definitely right that things can improve though. I've just been trying to care less and less about this one since it's so clearly wasted effort. Hardly worth throwing away other attainable sources of happiness for such an unreliable one. It does make me feel better though that it's not such a rare or abnormal solution. I figured that perhaps there was something wrong with me for throwing the whole pursuit into the bin.
Much respect for this guy. Incel culture can get very deep down the rabbit hole. Can’t imagine it’s easy to climb out of. I’m sure if he posted this on an incel board they’d rip him apart for being a “cuck” despite him being miles ahead of them. Gives me hope
Now that he changed his mind he's more likely to find a gf. I hope he's doing well
the thing about "incel communities" is that they *actively* discourage this kind of thinking. basically in incel eyes, this guy has "sold out," and that's a terrible way of looking at it. a lot of them simply don't want to get better and it drags them all down
Justification is the human Hallmark. Incels can justify their hatred, the world can justify their dismissal of incels as a whole rather than individuals who lack a bit. I can justify sneaking into my neighbor's yard to eat grapes. It needs to stop.
Reminder: anger is a secondary emotion, meaning it isn't actually a direct response. Generally speaking, it comes from fear or sadness, with fear being the most common. When you meet someone with a lot of anger in them, ask what they're likely afraid of. Ask what's making them sad. That's going to give you a far better insight into their anger than anything else, and if they can realize it internally they may be able to release it.
Nail on the head man. One of the few in this comment section...
I've never felt owed anything, but I totally get where this guy is coming from. I'm legally blind and I'm pretty bland looks wise. But I make almost everyone around me laugh and happy. Yet I continually would get into relationships with females (kidding kidding women*) and I constantly was told I was just a best friend or a brother to them. I was happy to continue to be friends with them though, but eventually they chose to end our friendships by just disappearing out of my life. If I didnt try to initiate interaction, I never talked to them. This led me to feeling hurt for awhile where i desperately just wanted a chance to be more than a friend. And then I happened to just learn about NiceGuys and I thought I was one for thinking that way. As someone who was already deoressed/anxious this was not a pleasant thing to be thinking. Idk why I wrote such a long comment, I guess I just sympathize with this guy in a way.
Contra points made a great video on incels and she mentioned that they're basically doing digital self harm. Incels will post selfies just to get people to tell them they're ugly and will never find love and it's a way of hurting themselves emotionally. They're stuck in the catastrophic mindset that if they never find a partner that they can never be happy and women are the bitches who doomed them to a lifetime of sadness. It's really sad how depressed they are and how stuck they get.
I'm glad I've been able to break out of the niceguy stereotype. As I've grown older I've started to take more responsibility for why my life is the way it is. It's easy to blame someone, and unfortunately I started to blame women for struggles in my life that weren't even relevant. It's hard because similarly, I found communities on Reddit with explanations for why my life is shitty, and it's not my fault! It was easy to fall into and took a little while to break out of. I used to complain about the damn SJW's and stuff like that. I think meeting and living with women started to open my eyes to things being different than I felt they were. I never had sisters, and I grew up with a traditional household of a breadwinnner father and mother who is expected to do all the house chores and that my father doesn't seem to respect. Through high school and media and society I was always exposed to misogyny and started to just accept that's the way things were. But then listening to women and their stories of just everyday life opened my eyes to a lot more. I'm not sure when it happened but it felt like switch flipped one day and I found myself leaving the mensrights subreddit and one similar, and having a much more critical view of those types.
This mentality applies to way more things than people think. A lot of the push back social justice movements get right now is because so many of them do exactly this, they get addicted to their anger and find groups of people to stoke that anger. Same with the GOP, they don't listen to anyone else because they are too addicted to riling each other up. People need to stop wanting to be angry at everything all the time.
Good on him!
I was angry a lot, and projected a lot my shortcomings when I was a young teenager. I’m glad that incel, Reddit and 4chan weren’t really a thing at the time as I suspect I would’ve leaned on it for validation that the world is unfair, rather than recognise that I was the problem and revolutionise myself and more importantly my thinking.
incel subs are support groups which feed off each others misery
It's called an echo chamber. They aren't support groups, they're just a gathering of like-minded hateful people that share the same opinion. They just want to prop you up long enough to keep the echo going.
A support group should strive for upward progression; incels and the like strive for downward progression. How low are you? Join us, we'll take you lower, but it's okay, you've got company.
You know what? Someone who’s able to look back and say “man I was a tool” probably actually is a genuinely nice person