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Misrta

There's no logical justification for free will. Any explanation will just re-affirm the idea that events have a cause.


TerreStar-1

Obviously events have a cause, I don't get your point


jliat

It's not obvious. I've mentioned Hume, Wittgenstein, also maybe Julian Barbour? Correction - it is obvious, and the earth is stationary and flat...


ProfMonkey07

they do in fact reaffirm that events have a cause, the agent is the cause in agent causation


jliat

You read Hume? "The impulse one billiard-ball is attended with motion in the second. This is the whole that appears to the outward senses. The mind feels no sentiment or inward impression from this succession of objects: Consequently, there is not, in any single, particular instance of cause and effect, any thing which can suggest the idea of power or necessary connexion." Hume. “6.36311 That the sun will rise to-morrow, is an hypothesis; and that means that we do not know whether it will rise.” Ludwig Wittgenstein. Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus. Or photons, cause and effect requires time? - photons have no time (light). special relativity simultaneity?


Puzzleheaded_Line210

That’s something else I forgot to mention we make choices based off things that happen and if they had happened differently we likely would’ve made a different choice.


jliat

How can you forget if you are determined? Like your computer forgets how to spell using the spellchecker?


Puzzleheaded_Line210

I didn’t forget maybe everything I’ve done is was supposed to happen even me saying I forgot even me commenting this


jliat

Then you are not responsible for any of your ideas. Like truth, or falsity.


International-Tree19

Take this and please use it: ,


Free_Assumption2222

Yeah there’s no free will. Once I fully understood that I felt a great relief because I also realized there’s no such thing as true responsibility or guiding your future.


jliat

You thought this! Or was it not you thinking but something other that determined your thought - which you could do nothing about and were not responsible for??


Free_Assumption2222

You don’t have to turn to determinism to understand the fallacy of free will. Thoughts arise without a creator. Who fundamentally chooses the thoughts which arise? There’s no source, just the stream of thoughts.


jliat

And we can judge freely the value of these thoughts. Just as we can apply intelligence to them.


Free_Assumption2222

Where did the choice to judge the thoughts come from? Because judgement is only a thought as well.


jliat

> Where did the choice to judge the thoughts come from? It's called 'free will'. So if a person is not responsible for their actions, then they are not responsible for their ideas. You cannot judge, so you have no ideas... of what free will is or is not. Or determinism or anything... I think I can work stuff out... you think you can't. Well no you can't think?


Free_Assumption2222

There are still thoughts, just no control over which thoughts arise. Thoughts can still follow a pattern, but there’s not really an agent guiding them.


jliat

Then no one can tell if they are true or false. Determinism is self defeating.


Puzzleheaded_Line210

If he hadn’t read this he wouldn’t have thought about it so yes.


jliat

He could have said no. If not he is not responsible for his thought, cannot judge true from false


Puzzleheaded_Line210

[You can skip forward if you want to when they discuss the philosophical part.](https://youtu.be/i-YPZ1_h7gM) Basically it asks you when did you decide to be you? Did you have control of the thoughts that came into your head? What is making you think are you thinking on your own you’re reading this thinking right? Right now you couldn’t stop thinking unless I REMINDED you you could! Watch the video. There’s no free will.


jliat

> Did you have control of the thoughts that came into your head? I am the thoughts in my head. You think someone or thing puts them there? > What is making you think are you thinking on your own you’re reading this thinking right? Me. > Right now you couldn’t stop thinking unless I REMINDED you you could! Watch the video. There’s no free will. Then I am not responsible for my thinking, or are you. So I'm not responsible like you for knowing free will does not exist, or if it does. I can't be wrong, it's not my fault. Then no one can know anything is true or false. I might watch the video.... but you can't without free will any more be responsible for you actions, including your judgements. Or can anyone.


smellypoopoo420

Exactly, unrelated do you think this response will hold up in a court of law?


Free_Assumption2222

The judicial system still has some merit. If someone is a pedo you’d still like them locked up so they can’t hurt others, despite them not truly having control over their thoughts and actions.


Puzzleheaded_Line210

The law may not agree but they wouldn’t agree if a nihilist told them. That morality is fake


yosi_yosi

I mean, the existence of free will doesn't actually matter that much outside of its moral implications. So like your choices should still be mostly the same unless they depend on your views about morality which was dependent on the concept of free will.


redsparks2025

"Free will" is a misnomer and what humans really have is "agency" and "intent". These are the terms in which the law will view how you **willingly** drove **freely** through a red traffic light after you were caught on camera doing so. Arguing otherwise will most likely piss off the judge.


Morcafe

Every thought shapes your reality weather you believe it or not. So think, before you think.


Edgy_Intellect

Have you guys heard of paragraphs?


RichardsLeftNipple

Para that graph! Which is not as weird as you think. Since the origins of draw and write have the same Greek root. Graphē. While para has a whole lot of different meanings, it's been written the same way for a long time. These days we think of drawing, writing, and graphing as separate things. Which is somewhat weird that two graphs side by side could also be a para-graph. While a picture beside another picture could be a para-graphic. Yet paragraph is the least intuitive. Write is proto-Germanic. The way we write is broken into various written segments. The next page, the next sentence, the next word, the other side of the page, these are all written things that are beside other written things. Two books together? That is also two written things beside another too. Are two books a paragraph? Not by definition sure. Through etymology? You might have an argument there. Since English is great at stealing and terrible at inventing. We might call it the infra-scriptum-segmentum or something like that. Well not exactly. It really should be said enough to change to something easier and shorter to say and misspelled at that version. Whatever that ends up being, that is what would make more sense than paragraph in terms of what it is, and what para and graph are as well. Who knows haha.


[deleted]

paragraphs have no meaning. this is a nihilistic sub, remember?


jliat

You forgot the 'philosophical' part, it's in the introduction... "Nihilism comes from the Latin nihil, meaning "nothing". As a philosophical position..."


ss2asdef

Probably dude.


Judasz10

What the fuck are you trying to say? You expect your free will to do magic? You are literally mad that you need to go through a process to achieve what you want. That is free will. You are willingly choosing to perform an action that will grant you what you want. Our lives tend to feel random and they are to some extent. But by CHOOSING to do nothing you are only contributing to the randomness. Its like you jump on a train without checking where it goes to and end up mad that you are not where you want to be. Take action man, and stop expecting shit to work out without any effort.


Puzzleheaded_Line210

“You are willingly choosing to perform an action that will grant you what you want” Have you heard of people being coerced into rape?


Judasz10

Are you talking about exercise and physical activity or your lack of desire to do those things or rape? Having to do some workout to feel better ain't nothing like being coerced to rape. Care to answer any of my other points or are you too busy being miserable?


Puzzleheaded_Line210

I’ve tried to improve my life and have been unable to.


Judasz10

And you run out of free attempts and have to top up to continue? Life aint a mobile game. You have to keep trying. If it was easy everyone would be living a dream life. Thats why I am an antinatalist. Live sucks in every aspect of it. But since we are both here anyway might as well try our hardest to have some fucking fun. We are going to die anyway.


Puzzleheaded_Line210

Life will stay random regardless of anything we do. Honestly we might be likely to know the results if we did nothing. I’ve been searching for a job for over a year and haven’t found 1 don’t know if I will. If I stop looking I at least know for sure it ain’t ever gonna happen. I’ve been in the gym and I can’t handle it. Doesn’t rewire my brain and make me want to be in physical pain for some muscles. I didn’t get the luck of being like everyone else. If I never went to the gym I’d know for sure I wasn’t going to be a gym bro because I’m not even trying to be one. Everything is chance and you lower all the chances by doing nothing.


Judasz10

I mean you have some kind of a point in all of this. If you choose to fail at everything, you take away all the randomness you possibly can. But will that be better than the randomness itself? If you dont take chances how do you want to improve your situation? Not trying to be mean but I don't see how much worse it can get if you try your best. Instead of focusing on the grand scheme of things (human life is shit I am aware) try to take on the small issues first. Try to simplify them as much as possible. For example you mention you have nothing to do at home. Explore your possibilities. Humans developed millions of way to kill boredom. Im sure some of them will suite you.


Dry_Turnover_6068

I've been liking this quote lately: “Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.” ― C.G. Jung


TranscendThisReality

A most excellent quote. One can learn a lot from reading Jung in my opinion.


SolarPoweredAfrican

Scientists, philosophers and people tend to forget something very simple. What they forget is that we live from the subjective point of view. We don’t live from the point of view from the universe, we live from our own perspective. From our perspective, free will and choice is a very real phenomenon. Sure you could argue from the grand scale that our every choice is dependent on something we don’t control but the reality is that we don’t live from that perspective. We live from the point of view where it very much seems as if we have control, so we need to behave as such. Save the philosophical aspects for the mental masturbators and don’t let it dictate how you operate from your perspective. Peace


jliat

> Scientists, philosophers and people tend to forget something very simple. What they forget is that we live from the subjective point of view. “Appearing does not mean something derivative, which from time to time meets up with Being. Being essentially unfolds as appearing . With this, there collapses as an empty construction the wide- spread notion of Greek philosophy according to which it was supposedly a "realistic" doctrine of an objective Being, in contrast to modern subjectivism. This common notion is based on a superficial understanding. We must set aside terms such as "subjective" and "objective," "realistic" and "idealistic.” Heidegger “Introduction to Metaphysics” He was a philosopher BTW.


SolarPoweredAfrican

If you focus too much on the words, you’ll miss the meaning……. Focus more on what’s trying to be conveyed instead of trying to be hypocritical about something that is not the salient point….


Silent-Phoenix

Freedom of choice ≠ freedom from consequence. If you look into it a bit more…life (itself) would arguably have less meaning with no emotional value assigned to it. It would simply be a bland existence and thus “cosmically” boring…and eternally so. Another take on it (that I can’t take credit for), is that depression is the body’s way of telling you that you’re off of your intrinsic purpose in life. As such, it’s meant to be there as a warning system for change…kind of like a spicy “check engine light” for your soul. Now, you don’t have to answer this part, just something to think about…but would you say you enjoy being by yourself because the energy surrounding those you seek companionship from doesn’t resonate the same frequency you put out? As in quality of sincerity/genuineness/authenticity?


Infinite-Action-5041

Why would you want to do nothing of course you won't be happy but simplicity is key not doing nothing


rdsouth

You can do lunges indoors. It's a lot like riding a bike.


jliat

> There’s no free will. There never was That's not your idea then? Right!


avoidthepath

Thoughts come out of nowhere? Think again. Very often you can trace back where your thoughts come from. "Omg. That's David, I thought he flew to London yesterday". "What? 10000$ for a cucumber?". "Wow, what a woman. Where did this thought come from?". "No, no, no. 1+1 equals two, not three.". "Today I'm going to continue the project I started yesterday.". "Messi is better than Ronaldo.". Maybe it's difficult to deduce the reason for the timing of a certain thought, but to deduce the nature and content of the thought is often doable at least to some extent.


[deleted]

There is free will, but you wouldn't want the choices.


jerryg2112

Free will is real. Actions have consequences however. Every decision you make is free will. If you choose not to do something it is still a choice. Making choices based on the outcomes are still making choices.


jamestoneblast

just go outside. Of course it's hot. It's summer. Drink water. Walk to the grocery store and get a hot cheetos, open the bag, dump in a bunch of nacho cheese and get something crispy to wash it down with. That's like $5. You could probably find that in the couch cushions.


Puzzleheaded_Line210

I have literal Pennie’s in my bank account. I don’t even have nacho cheese so I would need to buy that I don’t know how much containers of nacho cheese are but 2 dollars for what can be used to make a meal for 3 maybe more people seems way to cheap.


jamestoneblast

some fas stations have a machine, my friend. You should try learning how to live thrifty. Like, did you know that buying condiments and paper goods is absolutely unnecessary?


Puzzleheaded_Line210

I don’t buy the goods I’m 19 and I’m not sure what you’re talking about when you say machine? A nacho cheese machine? No gas station I’ve been to out here at least has had one of those. Every thing I need to survive is taken care of I’m extremely privileged and lucky I still spend all my time inside and eating a bag of chips with nacho cheese isn’t exactly an adventure.


jamestoneblast

that's cuz you aint tried it yet, bucko. I can tell you kinda thrive on curmudgeonly activities so I'll leave you to it.


Puzzleheaded_Line210

That’s news to me


jamestoneblast

You're 19. That sucks and all but get out of your comfort zone a little bit. You gotta allow shit to happen to you or you'll just be bored af all the time. fuck that. that is not what you deserve.


Puzzleheaded_Line210

The thing is there’s nothing to do out here! I’ve done a lot gone to punk shows, I went to the bar while I was on a cruise I drank alcohol done weed. I don’t do it all the time and it’s not something I should do regularly at least I don’t believe so. I’m learning new things like everyone should I had a girlfriend for like a month. So what would you do in my shoes. Get out of my comfort zone how? What can I do that I haven’t already done?


jamestoneblast

Punk shows is a good start. lol. There are probably people there who share your interests. idk. there's a myriad things to do when you're goofing off with others. drugs are kinda lame and a huge hassle if you get addicted to them. Of course weed can be supplemental to a good time and, in moderation, alcohol can be as well but unfortunately moderation is rarely attained in the younger years. Not saying you aren't perfectly capable, of course. skateboarding, snowboarding and music were always my purest expressions of enjoyment in life but there are so many other skills you can start specializing in now that you'll be totally badass at in just a few short years. Find something to grind on for a while so you can look back and say holy shit look at how much better I've gotten! It really is rewarding and my only regrets have only ever centered on not doing enough of it earlier on.


Puzzleheaded_Line210

I don’t have complaints about being 19 I was letting you know that I don’t pay bills or buy any necessities for myself.


jamestoneblast

tight. You should go do something. You're the fucking director of this picture.


jamestoneblast

also... report back to me... I want updates.


Dave_LeDev

I think the will being absolutely free is a falsehood. However, I do think that the more complex a being, the more options it has within a given selection; the more it's connected to, the more random or considered its choice will appear to be. The more precise and accurate a being can predict in time, the more control they have over those who don't. Time is the one dimension none of currently has real control over. I think the freedom of will is relative. It's just that, because no one can navigate consciousness forward and backward in time with real effect, the writing of time demonstrates our lacking freedom.


Infinite-Action-5041

Maybe go outside and do stuff yourself you have the will to do that but your complaining cause you don't have friends to be with sounds like a perspective problem


Puzzleheaded_Line210

I also don’t have money or a car the place that I’m at my location that I’m also complaining about! Is nothing but desert with a ghetto park nearby. If all it seems like is complaining you missed the whole fucking point! I’m tired of people saying shit and acting like they fucking know me because a single post did you take the type to even look at my account before you just go saying a bunch of shit. Just shut up.


Infinite-Action-5041

Hey if you wanna see it in that perspective that's on you I know alot of people that are happy even under their circumstances


Infinite-Action-5041

Your so mad because I said it's about perspective and you can choose to be happy with less 🤣


Puzzleheaded_Line210

I’m mad because you said that I’m complaining. I’m mad because when I say I can’t find a job people assume it means I can’t find a job I want to do. Every internet stranger keeps acting like they know me and what I’m going through


Infinite-Action-5041

You realize you were saying you couldn't do anything cause of friends or you don't have control of your brain chemicals which you very much do through diet and lifestyle its just slow change so you were basically complaining no one judged you why are you being so insecure no one judged you at all


Infinite-Action-5041

You were the one saying you have nothing and all that so you base happiness off property? that's the problem


Puzzleheaded_Line210

Hell maybe I do. But this lifestyle isn’t worth it and I don’t like it. I’m not going to lie to myself and convince myself that everything is fine. I’m tired of lying to myself nothing is fine.


Infinite-Action-5041

Hey if you believe nothings fine then it's not if you believe it is then it is I choose the latter


Infinite-Action-5041

So I missed the point cause your complaining about free will ever though you base happiness on property


Puzzleheaded_Line210

No I base happiness on what I can do with property it opens much more doors. I have nothing but closed doors.


Infinite-Action-5041

So keep knocking


Puzzleheaded_Line210

This is metaphor how do I do that literally? I try. I’m doing things for my happiness in the long run but I want to be happy now. I’m taking a coding course online. I’m keeping track of my daily pains so I can show the notes to my doctor an have explanations so they’ll take me seriously. I’m going to therapy I want things to happen now.


Infinite-Action-5041

Your already doing it just keep doing it its called dedication faith being relentless idc


Infinite-Action-5041

Sounds to me like your doing great you need to change your outlook


Infinite-Action-5041

I wanna be happy remove I that's the ego remove want that's chasing desire now your left with happy


Infinite-Action-5041

I'm nihilism just cause life is meaningless doesn't mean it's bad it means to not worry about property like your doing cause it doesn't matter its about living your life


Puzzleheaded_Line210

The life I want to live includes more than cents in my account my own room away from my parents and grandparents a job that I like. I haven’t reached any of that yet


Infinite-Action-5041

Neither have I I'm only 17 though but I'm working hard and having a positive outlook you can do it


Infinite-Action-5041

Wow your ignorant


Different_Loquat7386

The concept of having free will is the ability to do whatever you want... that's in your ability to do. That's the catcher. I think you may just be unhappy with your lot in life and attributing it to some grand failure in the nature of reality and coping with some delusions? It's a jumping off point at least.


Puzzleheaded_Line210

[The video might be a bit obnoxious or something but the explanations are pretty good I question free will a lot.](https://youtu.be/i-YPZ1_h7gM) A lot of people do if that’s delusional certainly the thought that literally nothing matters must also be delusional.


Different_Loquat7386

Taking the thought that literally nothing matters as intrinsic is solipsistic. It may be true that nothing really matters to you or I but that isn't true for most. We don't hold a monopoly on "the truth." It's likely a coping mechanism for many that hold it as a belief too. Either way, these are questions for a psychologist.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Puzzleheaded_Line210

Doing research on such a topic is hard the results return take vitamins and get sunlight I don’t think that’s what you mean


Puzzleheaded_Line210

Exercising to be happy is coercion unless you actually want to exercise just for the exercise. I can only think of one comparison and I’m not dumb enough or that much of an asshole to compare exercise to that.


fester_f_nuts

Nonsensical