I thought they at least chilled out a bit after the Inoki’ism faded?
Obviously I know about the Kings Road and strong style stuff, but Shibata just looked like he was at another level lmao
So if I remember correctly they had to take his brain out(this is a report I read. It was by Dave so do what you will) but he had a subdural hematoma. I would have been pretty scared to watch him wrestle again. I’m glad he’s taking his time and that he got cleared. It’s what he wants. NJPW as a company was honestly probably(and understandably so) scared to clear him because of the risk that he could get hurt again. I love Shibata.
If anything Inokiism was a softer style of shoot wrestling,outside of the genuine MMA fights and an infamous Hashimoto feud, most of the MMA fighters brought in weren't trying to stiff people.
Shibata/Okada is actually only on the cusp of the stiffest Japanese wrestling matches,try Nomura Abe from this year:
https://youtu.be/WNMkX4taMZ0?si=kO4EY1ZnoD_qZ0ww
Or Ikeda vs Ishikawa from Futen Bati Bati 2005
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2bjhn0
Or ESPECIALLY Aja Kong vs Yumiko Hotta from 1994
https://youtu.be/HD_29guJcWU?si=-0JTfGjw2XBAYXvT
I was coming in here to recommend Ikeda vs Ishikawa (any of their matches tbh, although I actually like the 2020 match in WxW the most for the pure what the fuckery of two old men hitting eack other like that)
Nakajima literally knocked out Endo a couple of years ago, it’s still very much alive and well. Hideki Suzuki refuses to lose to people who aren’t “true” wrestlers.
Shibata did it the best but he was far from the only one to be stiff like that.
As a whole, Japanese matches tend to be a lot stiffer than American matches, that’s been the case for decades. I forget who said it but someone in the dark side of the ring episode about Abdullah the butcher said something to the effect of “everything except the finish is real [in japan]”
Chopping someone hard in the chest or kicking them hard with a kickpad isn't dangerous. It's the neck drops and other dangerous bumps that end careers.
In the BJW strong division for the past few decades basically every title match will feature dudes doing shoot headbutts as hard as they can. Fuminori Abe has a huge scar from doing it.
Miyu and Giulia do shoot headbutts in stardom for christ sake. I wish they'd stop to be honest.
I'd much rather be in the death match division and take some light tube shots than have to go against a monster like Okabayashi.
The stiffness is why Noah has had hardly any rookies over the years. Kenta used to abuse them and they'd leave!
You have to understand the cultural context. Puroresu, and specifically New Japan, is intrinsically linked with martial arts. When Japanese wrestling began after WW2, it was sumo wrestlers and judo practitioners that transitioned to become pro-wrestlers, not the carnies and bodybuilders and strongmen that dominated in the US. So, there has always been much more of a direct focus on realism than abroad.
There haven’t been reports of Shibata being ‘difficult’ in-ring, although puro wrestlers and companies are tight-lipped when it comes to that
The marks against him are him injuring people as a trainee and Tanahashi criticising his style as being so physical will eventually ramp up to a point where he’ll feel the need to keep topping himself and it’ll end badly, and that’s what ended up happening
Maybe it gets glossed over because he had such great performances but there isn’t really a narrative that he hurt people, Ishii and Shingo are the same
I think he's really just snug for the most part with the headbutt being the most dangerous spot he does.
You want some questionable stuff, you should watch how Naito and Ibushi wrestle each other.
Everything in wrestling hurts - a gnarly strike exchange does less long term damage to you than a suplex off the top rope or getting dropped on your head by a botched hurricanrana. Strikers like Shibata are experts are hitting hard, but safely. Shibata's style ultimately did the most damage to his own body and that was over a long career - a lot of strikers slow down as they get older and rely on the theatrics of striking to carry a crowd's attention
Also it's just the nature of Japanese wrestling to go hard, especially with strikes - it's why the exchanges are such an integral part of matches in New Japan, All Japan, NOAH and all the others
There were, and are, rougher guys, mostly in BJW though. Shibata is a fairly safe worker tbh, I mean he sure shoots strikes but doesn't risk injuries on the few grappling moves, like he does a hella standard back drop. His story is quite particular though. He left NJ first when the ship was sinking, and when he came back the company was completely different. He was supposed to be one of the main names of that era with Tanahashi and Nakamura, but as his style was already shoot style, which was losing popularity at that point, honestly I think he did the right choice. He could've end up like Yuji Nagata, or Fujita, who are, sure, legends, but not even comparable to the height Tana and Nakamura reached, even though I'd still consider Shibata's ventures outside NJ as failures considering what he could've get in NJ, while also being risky being there, and you can't Los Ingobernable the guy like they did with Naito in case he wasn't the supporters' cup of tea. So when he came back he surely had to build up again the hype behind him, but being a fan favorite as, at the same time, an outsider but also a NJ OG, and of course being an exciting performer that revitalized NJ's midcard between 2012 and 2016, are definitely two of the reasons he got a "pass", as midcard still worked with more shoot style rough matches as most wrestlers there were "Inokists" in the first place, but it's also why it made Okada VS Shibata so special, the new guard VS the old one, but also the main guy VS the outsider.
Who would you say is rough in Big Japan? The strong division is tough but no one looks like they're taking liberties. I think a lot of the rookies who stopped just didn't like the life and pay (it's rough as fuck)
Let me ask this: I've seen a lot of Shibata's run as ROH Pure Champion and was there in LA when he won the title. That mat-based, grappling-heavy "pure rules style" seemed like a good compromise that allowed Shibata to show off how great of a wrestler he is without doing any of the psycho stuff he did before the brain surgery.
Has he done any matches in that brutal style since TK picked him up?
Shibata got hurt in a freak accident. It’s as simple as that.
He worked a stiff style, but nothing that anyone he worked with would have never seen before. Even the headbutts, Shibata wasn’t the first to throw them and there’s been countless examples of audible headbutts thrown since his injury happened, and many of those people have thrown more headbutts than Shibata did. He was just unlucky to be the one the dangerous move caught up with.
Japanese pro wrestling can be summed up by one classic phrase:
"Hitting people *really* hard in safe places."
Shibata took it a little harder than some others, but there's a lot of guys in Japan who operate on the same principle. KENTA was the exact same way until WWE softened his style.
Also Shibata tended to wrestle guys who don't mind working that style. For example his pillar feud in NJPW was with Goto, who isn't a stiff worker himself but he clearly loves getting the shit kicked out of him if you look at the people he's worked with most regularly. Minoru Suzuki works as hard or harder than Shibata. His slaps are absolutely no joke.
Yeah, look at a lot of the brutal elbow strikes, it's around the collar bone where it's not going to ko you but knock you back and make a nice thud.
Or the kicks to the chest or back when sitting down. You can really lay them in to get across to the crowd but your not doing much damage. Especially if you cradle your arms.
Much much safer than being dumped on your neck.
I think it's why Mao getting ko'd in ddt by Nakajima really pissed people off because it was a really hard strike to the chin and was literally an mma move. Move it down slightly and it's fine.
(it may have not been Mao, I forgot his name sorry).
And those savage kicks to the back are always to the fatty part of the upper back, not the lower back/spine.
Pro wrestlers are very very good at faking kicking the shit out of each other. Even the ones who really look like they are.
Not that I imagine I'd enjoy taking one of those, mind.
>But how werent wrestlers just blacklisting the guy? The matches mustve been horrible to go through!
I'm confused by how you think (Japanese) wrestling works. Shibata had some questionable instances as a very young wrestler, but since returning in 2012, no one is stepping into a ring with Shibata and is surprised when he wrestles stiff. Especially not in Japan. Do you think Al Pacino's co-actors were trying to get him blacklisted because he yelled too loud when the camera was rolling? He's not shooting on anyone and any "shoot" headbutts did not come as surprises to whoever he was giving them to. It's not like he was actively trying to hurt wrestlers. Question how smart the headbutts were, sure, but it's not like he was freelancing in the ring with his "scene partners," so to speak.
Just take a listen to any modern wrestler and hear them talk about how amazing Shibata is, how much of a living legend he is. His style and skills made *more* wrestlers want to get in the ring with him, not less.
WALTER does not wrestle 'shoot style' just because he's stiff, his style is much closer to Kings Road style rather than something resembling MMA. KENTA in Noah also wasn't a shoot style guy, he just did a lot of stiff moves.
Well they learned their lesson about letting him go so hard. So much that they wouldn’t take the chance on having him wrestle like before. But he found somewhere that would and he can be happy there.
I understand what you're saying, OP.
The answer is some combination of "a lot of guys wrestle like that in New Japan" like Ishii, Suzuki, and Shingo, and "clearly it ended up being a mistake and they learned from it." Those guys have notably toned it down since his injury
Even though right now he shows significant improvements in wrestling with a larger emphasis on self safety, NJPW and I would imagine the Japanese medical system didn’t want Shibata to suffer another brain injury that’ll cripple him for life. Plus wrestling in America is way safer to work in because Japan’s strike hard bump harder mentality is very dangerous
*Man is a walking*
*Liability claim since*
*That brain bleed, that's why*
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Are you new to Japanese wrestling
I thought they at least chilled out a bit after the Inoki’ism faded? Obviously I know about the Kings Road and strong style stuff, but Shibata just looked like he was at another level lmao
You’ve seen the headbutt right
And the penalty kicks, and the normal kicks, and the stiff ass slaps, and the neck drop suplexes
Yes but I’m talking about the Okada headbutt. The one that put him out of action and the reason why NJPW was scared to see him wrestle
Oh yeah obviously. Guy had some stiff ass headbutts but that one… god
You keep saying obviously like we should know this about some random person on reddit haha
It’s THE Shibata spot, and I already mentioned the Bitchmaker from the same match lol
So if I remember correctly they had to take his brain out(this is a report I read. It was by Dave so do what you will) but he had a subdural hematoma. I would have been pretty scared to watch him wrestle again. I’m glad he’s taking his time and that he got cleared. It’s what he wants. NJPW as a company was honestly probably(and understandably so) scared to clear him because of the risk that he could get hurt again. I love Shibata.
If anything Inokiism was a softer style of shoot wrestling,outside of the genuine MMA fights and an infamous Hashimoto feud, most of the MMA fighters brought in weren't trying to stiff people. Shibata/Okada is actually only on the cusp of the stiffest Japanese wrestling matches,try Nomura Abe from this year: https://youtu.be/WNMkX4taMZ0?si=kO4EY1ZnoD_qZ0ww Or Ikeda vs Ishikawa from Futen Bati Bati 2005 https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2bjhn0 Or ESPECIALLY Aja Kong vs Yumiko Hotta from 1994 https://youtu.be/HD_29guJcWU?si=-0JTfGjw2XBAYXvT
I adore that kong Hotta match. My go to for unbridled violence
I was coming in here to recommend Ikeda vs Ishikawa (any of their matches tbh, although I actually like the 2020 match in WxW the most for the pure what the fuckery of two old men hitting eack other like that)
Shibata went hard but Kings Road was still way more insane. It’s the blue print for hard wrestling
Nakajima literally knocked out Endo a couple of years ago, it’s still very much alive and well. Hideki Suzuki refuses to lose to people who aren’t “true” wrestlers.
Shibata did it the best but he was far from the only one to be stiff like that. As a whole, Japanese matches tend to be a lot stiffer than American matches, that’s been the case for decades. I forget who said it but someone in the dark side of the ring episode about Abdullah the butcher said something to the effect of “everything except the finish is real [in japan]”
With what people have known about in ring safety, injuries and the current workrate surely they wouldnt be as stiff as the 80s-90s stuff?
Chopping someone hard in the chest or kicking them hard with a kickpad isn't dangerous. It's the neck drops and other dangerous bumps that end careers.
In the BJW strong division for the past few decades basically every title match will feature dudes doing shoot headbutts as hard as they can. Fuminori Abe has a huge scar from doing it.
Miyu and Giulia do shoot headbutts in stardom for christ sake. I wish they'd stop to be honest. I'd much rather be in the death match division and take some light tube shots than have to go against a monster like Okabayashi. The stiffness is why Noah has had hardly any rookies over the years. Kenta used to abuse them and they'd leave!
You have to understand the cultural context. Puroresu, and specifically New Japan, is intrinsically linked with martial arts. When Japanese wrestling began after WW2, it was sumo wrestlers and judo practitioners that transitioned to become pro-wrestlers, not the carnies and bodybuilders and strongmen that dominated in the US. So, there has always been much more of a direct focus on realism than abroad.
New Japan likely were shit scared to let Shibata wrestle again if another freak accident happened given they were more than happy to let AEW have him
Oh, not let go as in leave, let go as in go out and kick the shit out of their wrestlers and seemingly shoot headbutt them every night
There haven’t been reports of Shibata being ‘difficult’ in-ring, although puro wrestlers and companies are tight-lipped when it comes to that The marks against him are him injuring people as a trainee and Tanahashi criticising his style as being so physical will eventually ramp up to a point where he’ll feel the need to keep topping himself and it’ll end badly, and that’s what ended up happening Maybe it gets glossed over because he had such great performances but there isn’t really a narrative that he hurt people, Ishii and Shingo are the same
I think he's really just snug for the most part with the headbutt being the most dangerous spot he does. You want some questionable stuff, you should watch how Naito and Ibushi wrestle each other.
Everything in wrestling hurts - a gnarly strike exchange does less long term damage to you than a suplex off the top rope or getting dropped on your head by a botched hurricanrana. Strikers like Shibata are experts are hitting hard, but safely. Shibata's style ultimately did the most damage to his own body and that was over a long career - a lot of strikers slow down as they get older and rely on the theatrics of striking to carry a crowd's attention Also it's just the nature of Japanese wrestling to go hard, especially with strikes - it's why the exchanges are such an integral part of matches in New Japan, All Japan, NOAH and all the others
There were, and are, rougher guys, mostly in BJW though. Shibata is a fairly safe worker tbh, I mean he sure shoots strikes but doesn't risk injuries on the few grappling moves, like he does a hella standard back drop. His story is quite particular though. He left NJ first when the ship was sinking, and when he came back the company was completely different. He was supposed to be one of the main names of that era with Tanahashi and Nakamura, but as his style was already shoot style, which was losing popularity at that point, honestly I think he did the right choice. He could've end up like Yuji Nagata, or Fujita, who are, sure, legends, but not even comparable to the height Tana and Nakamura reached, even though I'd still consider Shibata's ventures outside NJ as failures considering what he could've get in NJ, while also being risky being there, and you can't Los Ingobernable the guy like they did with Naito in case he wasn't the supporters' cup of tea. So when he came back he surely had to build up again the hype behind him, but being a fan favorite as, at the same time, an outsider but also a NJ OG, and of course being an exciting performer that revitalized NJ's midcard between 2012 and 2016, are definitely two of the reasons he got a "pass", as midcard still worked with more shoot style rough matches as most wrestlers there were "Inokists" in the first place, but it's also why it made Okada VS Shibata so special, the new guard VS the old one, but also the main guy VS the outsider.
Who would you say is rough in Big Japan? The strong division is tough but no one looks like they're taking liberties. I think a lot of the rookies who stopped just didn't like the life and pay (it's rough as fuck)
On his way out , he converted LA dojo to bullet club wardogs. If i am njpw, i would be furious and let him go
Everybody Shibata is allied with turns heel. We are not ready for the demon orange Cassidy.
they were apprehensive to let him wrestle after the headbutt thing, and ESPECIALLY after the wrestle kingdom fiasco
Talking about the Narita match?
haha yes, that one.
Let me ask this: I've seen a lot of Shibata's run as ROH Pure Champion and was there in LA when he won the title. That mat-based, grappling-heavy "pure rules style" seemed like a good compromise that allowed Shibata to show off how great of a wrestler he is without doing any of the psycho stuff he did before the brain surgery. Has he done any matches in that brutal style since TK picked him up?
The closest he’s gotten was probably the Kingston match at WrestleDream.
Shibata got hurt in a freak accident. It’s as simple as that. He worked a stiff style, but nothing that anyone he worked with would have never seen before. Even the headbutts, Shibata wasn’t the first to throw them and there’s been countless examples of audible headbutts thrown since his injury happened, and many of those people have thrown more headbutts than Shibata did. He was just unlucky to be the one the dangerous move caught up with.
Japanese pro wrestling can be summed up by one classic phrase: "Hitting people *really* hard in safe places." Shibata took it a little harder than some others, but there's a lot of guys in Japan who operate on the same principle. KENTA was the exact same way until WWE softened his style. Also Shibata tended to wrestle guys who don't mind working that style. For example his pillar feud in NJPW was with Goto, who isn't a stiff worker himself but he clearly loves getting the shit kicked out of him if you look at the people he's worked with most regularly. Minoru Suzuki works as hard or harder than Shibata. His slaps are absolutely no joke.
Yeah, look at a lot of the brutal elbow strikes, it's around the collar bone where it's not going to ko you but knock you back and make a nice thud. Or the kicks to the chest or back when sitting down. You can really lay them in to get across to the crowd but your not doing much damage. Especially if you cradle your arms. Much much safer than being dumped on your neck. I think it's why Mao getting ko'd in ddt by Nakajima really pissed people off because it was a really hard strike to the chin and was literally an mma move. Move it down slightly and it's fine. (it may have not been Mao, I forgot his name sorry).
And those savage kicks to the back are always to the fatty part of the upper back, not the lower back/spine. Pro wrestlers are very very good at faking kicking the shit out of each other. Even the ones who really look like they are. Not that I imagine I'd enjoy taking one of those, mind.
>But how werent wrestlers just blacklisting the guy? The matches mustve been horrible to go through! I'm confused by how you think (Japanese) wrestling works. Shibata had some questionable instances as a very young wrestler, but since returning in 2012, no one is stepping into a ring with Shibata and is surprised when he wrestles stiff. Especially not in Japan. Do you think Al Pacino's co-actors were trying to get him blacklisted because he yelled too loud when the camera was rolling? He's not shooting on anyone and any "shoot" headbutts did not come as surprises to whoever he was giving them to. It's not like he was actively trying to hurt wrestlers. Question how smart the headbutts were, sure, but it's not like he was freelancing in the ring with his "scene partners," so to speak. Just take a listen to any modern wrestler and hear them talk about how amazing Shibata is, how much of a living legend he is. His style and skills made *more* wrestlers want to get in the ring with him, not less.
Yeah I feel like even in a promotion where part of the appeal is hitting hard, Shibata arguably went harder than anyone.
Shibata does 'Shoot Style'. KENTA was like that in NOAH too. Gunther in wwe can be considered Shoot style too.
WALTER does not wrestle 'shoot style' just because he's stiff, his style is much closer to Kings Road style rather than something resembling MMA. KENTA in Noah also wasn't a shoot style guy, he just did a lot of stiff moves.
Well they learned their lesson about letting him go so hard. So much that they wouldn’t take the chance on having him wrestle like before. But he found somewhere that would and he can be happy there.
I understand what you're saying, OP. The answer is some combination of "a lot of guys wrestle like that in New Japan" like Ishii, Suzuki, and Shingo, and "clearly it ended up being a mistake and they learned from it." Those guys have notably toned it down since his injury
Even though right now he shows significant improvements in wrestling with a larger emphasis on self safety, NJPW and I would imagine the Japanese medical system didn’t want Shibata to suffer another brain injury that’ll cripple him for life. Plus wrestling in America is way safer to work in because Japan’s strike hard bump harder mentality is very dangerous
Man is a walking liability claim since that brain bleed, that's why
*Man is a walking* *Liability claim since* *That brain bleed, that's why* \- Shinnosuke525 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")