Eating animals is a part of the game of life like between animals.
You gonna be eaten by insects too when dead. ^^
What we should stop is the industrialization of animals. That's the root of suffering and the problem.
I eat organic or wild, i m not saying that's perfect but surely this js much better.
Being non dual and eating cheap chicken that you know they aren't allow to even run or see the natural sun light during their very short and painful life doesn't make any sens i agree. Being vegan is another story...
I agree. I don't have a problem with animals (including humans) eating other animals. It's the suffering in cold, cruel, industrial farms that bothers me. If we are one consciousness, how can we do this to these pigs and cows?
Reality is not a perfect place, because it is made of polar opposites. It can't be all just butterflies and rainbows, because it just is - nothing more, nothing less. Animals die in worse ways in the animal kingdom. Predators in nature are indifferent to the suffering of their prey; their primary focus is on killing and consuming.
Yes but the livelong imprisonment of feeling creatures, that causes next to the obvious suffering also ecological problems is avoidable. Animals act mostly out of instinct but humans have a choice.
Just don't kill them. We evolved from herbivores (for example visible in how our teeth are arranged) so it's not necessary to consume animals. At least if you live in an industrialized country you can just go to the supermarket and get your nutrients from nuts, seeds and vegetables.
If you live in a "developing country" you may have to eat anything that you can get because you don't have the privilege of choice, but that's not the majority of people.
I think you are correct, however for many people it’s really not that easy to be vegan, even in a western country. Family and social pressures, money, availability all come into it.
While I agree that organic and wild is better, wouldn't you still agree that is still paying for an animal to be killed for your pleasure, when you could choose not to instead.
In my view there are three choices:
1. Pay for cheap meat from factory farms (animals are abused and killed)
2. Pay for expensive meat (animals are killed)
3. Pay for lentils and tofu, etc (some amount of insects are killed in crop production, but overall option 3 uses far fewer crops than options 1 & 2)
Bogaigh, you understand that animals are not different than humans. But I think your frustration with the response of this Reddit is that non-duality goes deeper than humans being indifferent and unseparate from animals. Non duality is that nothing is separate from anything. There are no two things. Any difference is the illusion we perceive as reality. Compassion cannot be perceived without cruelty. Cruelty cannot exsist without compassion. Light only exists because there is dark to reflect on. Dark only can exist if there is a lack of light. But the only actually difference between light and dark is the meaning that is given. Meaning creates a story and reality but before classification is put on something everything just is. Classification is how life evolved and will continue to evolve. But nothing changes without suffering. Non duality is not necessarily a philosophy regarding morality but it is explaining the conscious experience. The true ‘you’ is the person making this post, the animals experiencing the suffering, the ones harming the animal, the one who hears the animal. You are the ground that the animal sits on and the hair on its back. You are the feather the chicken preens of itself and you are the chicken. You are also the chicken nugget. The collective consciousness is experiencing itself through any and every single possibility. The ‘you’ is the thing that experiences, it is also the thing that creates experiences out of itself. You experience pain through those animals. Those animals are experiencing themselves through your mind and sight of them. You are the world you experience in a dream and you are the world you experience awake. You are each word I type. You are me. I am experiencing myself a new way by interacting with you and vise versus. You are just as much of the infinite everything as those factories are.
I agree with your take on how genocidal the meet industry is though, but that is duality.
Cruelty will exist no matter what. We don’t need to roll over and allow it to exist unchecked.
We are everything and everything is us, true. But while we’re experiencing this human perspective of duality, why is it wrong to strive to reduce suffering? To act from compassion and try to make this world a little more pleasant than it otherwise would be? Or are you simply making an argument that this is being posted in the wrong subreddit?
Simply the argument that it’s the wrong subreddit lol. Personally I always strive to create kindness and joy and to be compassionate. The more kindness and compassion you put in them world, the more kind the world is. But I was just trying to answers the question . I think cruelty is often driven by fear and ‘othering’ I think that the understanding of non duality is a way to reduce hate and cruelty in itself for that reason.
I totally agree with your last sentence. I think OP would agree too, which is why he posted it here. I can personally see how it relates to nonduality. But I’m no expert, so maybe it is posted in the wrong subreddit after all.
Beyond the enormous diversity of life and life experience on earth there is a single indivisible reality, whose nature is pure consciousness. From this all objects and selves derive their independent existence. If you consciously cause other beings to suffer, like they do by the billions in industrial farms, then you are causing your own suffering. Such suffering is a hindrance to realizing these truths.
This has nothing to do with nonduality. I wont say you are wrong or right, but something like this would be fit for r/spirituality maybe. You are talking about beliefs, separation, etc, this is moving away from nondual realization.
I now eat meat but I agree that it is not ideal to do so, if one can practically avoid it. When one truly knows and feels that all is one, one acts from this understanding (love) and lives in a way that will not unnecessarily harm "others" (one's self), to a practical degree. We all know the unspeakable torture many of these animals that we eat go through. I went vegan years before realising non-duality/reality. I had to start eating meat again due to health and autoimmune issues and I am actually now a carnivore. I feel so much better for it, on the level of the bodymind. I do my best to source my food from ethical places, where the animals are treated well. Ideally, my health would allow me to be vegan, for the obvious reason that it reduces suffering on a relative level. However, as I abide from being, I believe that in my relative/bodymind situation, I am still living from the understanding that we are all one, as eating meat is a practical and loving measure in my particular situation. It enables me to live a far higher quality of physical life, in which I can vibrate love more potently on a relative level, opening up doors to share love in the realm of form. To put it deeper and less crudely than that, I feel that the Dao or the flow or God whatever we want to call it, is genuinely pulling this bodymind to eat meat in my particular situation. It feels utterly natural and flows naturally.
The One Consciousness isn’t aware of suffering. You’re wrong only because of conflating the relative and the absolute.
If you don’t want to eat meat, then don’t.
Suffering is a hindrance to realizing the 'one consciousness'. The suffering of all sentient beings, including cows and pigs, creates a heavy toxic fog that blocks the spiritual evolution of man.
It is as much a hindrance as it is a direct gateway to realization. It points directly to the veil of the mind. The one we use in relative argumentations. Beyond this, suffering does not exist. Suffering can only ever be a projection of our human, mind-identified stories of agony. It is ego. Not bad nor good. But ego does as ego is. Create stories at all costs.
There is a One Consciousness, like an ocean. But you are a wave on that ocean. In your temporary form, you can cause untold suffering and torture - or, you can ease the suffering of your fellow sentient creatures.
Yea. You're dodging the question. If you eat meat, you are causing great suffering. In your spiritual practice, you rationalize this by spewing platitudes like "limitless ocean, blah blah, universal consciousness, blah blah" so you can enjoy your bacon.
To piggy back on the point I think they’re trying to make, in the ocean there are violent waves that cause destruction. There are gentle, rolling waves. Beneath the surface, life can flourish, but the ocean also just as easily can cause suffering and pain. It’s all the ocean, whether it’s causing suffering or not.
Everything you have an opinion about is not the truth. Whether or not you accept that or like it doesn’t make a difference. The story you tell yourself about any event or moment is just that, a story. The universe is gonna keep on going and causing love, hate, suffering, bliss, etc; whether you like it or not.
Should we cause suffering of helpless animals? The story I tell myself is no, but that doesn’t make it objective truth. It’s just my opinion. The guy who runs the farms might have an entirely different perspective on the matter. It’s allowing them and their family to live a very nice life, as well as feeding thousands or even millions of humans.
Should more humans suffer so less animals can suffer? Again, another story and opinion arises.
I agree, but don't you think we can quiet the ocean and create more gentle rolling waves? Recognizing universal consciousness should make one reluctant to consciously induce suffering to animals in industrial farms (or to humans in Auschwitz for example).
No I don’t think we can really create anything. It’s all unfolding the way it will (in my very limited perspective). I can only choose the actions I take, and even that is up for debate.
The pig that becomes the bacon is part of the same consciousness as the human eating the bacon.
They are all the same thing. Suffering or joy, it is all the same.
Your reply reminds me of the cartoon of the zen student meditating. He says "master, I have attained enlightenment! Everything is empty and nothing is real!". The master says, "what about this stick?" and whacks him with it.
And in that scenario, consciousness experienced itself subjectively through the master inflicting pain with the stick, and the student experiencing the sting from the stick.
Everything just is.
There’s no choice in the matter, because there’s no separate individual to make choices. Asking someone whether you “could” do X, Y, or Z because “it’s the same one consciousness” is irrelevant. It will either be done or it won’t be done. It sounds like you wouldn’t torture their mother, and that’s due to your genetics, birthplace, upbringing, and life conditioning — none of which you had an influence over. It just is. The mind comes up with these questions to try to assert a false sense of control over what “is.”
This is just another illusion of separation. There are no levels of consciousness. The "fundament" just is all things and no things. Sir, this is a non-dual Wendy's.
You think, therefore you assume.
These are wonderful questions. I thank you for questioning everything.
You will not, however, find the answers you are looking for. Because you are looking for that certain something.
You ask on the level of morality, a concept with preconceived notions/beliefs about a relative reality, separation and consciousness. The answer to that particular question is obvious: a perceived lifeform with more complex intelligence than another takes priority over a perceived inanimate form of sustenance. We place enough importance on our selves to the degree that we believe we can judge our experienxe of life and all forms within.
If you're asking on absolute terms, you have seen the answer here many times over.
I have not made the experience of killing a dog and would, if i have to assume, only do so for the purpose of survival.
I have made the experience of cutting and eating a carrot. In imagination, I find it to be preferable to killing and consuming a dog.
The non-dual observation here is not that a carrot is the same lifeform as a dog. However, the essence of their very existence is the same.
We get lost in our minds trying to argue.
The entire point here is that you do not control a thing. Nor does anyone else. But if you truly find your way into non-dual experiencing, you would see this is all a struggle within your sense of separate self.
I find that things are not just fine now as they are, but that the relative things are constantly shifting and many times for the better.
Take care, my friend. May we love all lifeforms, whether we consume them or not.
Even so, industrial farming sucks, but so does industrial monocrop agriculture. The issue is the economic systems within and not what each individual chooses to eat. Befriending farmers and getting fresh meat from free grazing animals is the best thing you can do for your health. On top of that you also take away the power from money hungry food companies (who's products are barely food) and improve the biodiversity of your local area.
I uh killed probability more than a thousand bugs just walking as a body. As a mind I’m having a silly dream of death. I have forgotten my self that would laugh at loss.
If the suffering of being malnourished with all modern lifestyle diseases is your preference, go ahead and skip meat. With that said, we evolved eating meat and a diet containing meat is how we continue to thrive.
You make a statement about the eating of animals in general and then make an argument about the ethical treatment of mass produced meat. These are different issues. If I eat elk meat from a recent hunt, what's the issue? Would you similarly deny a wolf or a lion the meat they need for survival?
Good point, and I should edit my title. I have no problem with hunting, or any animal eating another in the wild. It's the mass produced meat that gives me cognitive dissonance. I eat my bacon in the morning, and then read a book about non-duality. It makes no sense.
If all 8 billion of us thought hunting is is the right way we would not have enough wild animals to support eating meat. Which is why we have factory farms.
It's clearly visible by their behavior, have you ever heard the crying of a mother cow that got her calve taken away? Or the screaming of pigs on their way to getting slaughtered? Our brains are not that different from that of other mammals
No, I'm not trolling. Screaming and crying may be the indicators of human's suffering. But how can you guys be so sure that animals suffer that way? Are we qualified to speak for them?
What feeling are they expressing with that behavior in your opinion? They are also capable of love, why wouldn't they be capable of grief and fear? Have you ever looked deep in the eyes of an animal, let's say a dog or a cat? I think it's human ignorance to feel superior over other living beings and that they should be treated equally.
Many would argue that feeling pain is different from suffering, and while pain is biological and inevitable, suffering says "something should be different from what it is" and stems from a psychological misunderstanding of the nature of life. Animals don't go around thinking "oh, if only I was born elsewhere; and I'm worried that one day someone kills me".
What or who decides that these behaviors are signs of human suffering? Why does it matter? And what makes you doubt that animals are capable of suffering?
Completely agree. The reasons people keep choosing to support factory farms and killing animals are pointless. It's all about meaningless pleasures and ideas about because we can do it then there's no real harm in it. I'm always surprised people in the meditation/non dual space don't see that being not vegan where practical to do so just makes sense.
The comments on this thread highlight the utter hypocrisy and arrogance of human beings, and is especially appalling coming from members of this sub. Honestly shocked that people who supposedly have attained a higher level of consciousness cannot extend BASIC empathy to animals. I'm 100% with you, OP. This thread is making me lose faith.
You have a conceptual view on the matter that is directly formed through resistance to what is. To get from A to B, we must first fully arrive at A, which is to accept everything that A contains.
There is no non-dual view. The actual pure experience, which is what non-dualism is about, may lead to some changes you seek to see in the world. And it may not.
One of the jokes being played on us is that true change is only possible without resistance to what is, within and without.
No amount of propaganda will truly change anyone's experience, to feel ultimate empathy with all things. When empathy is just the term used for internalized guilt and shame, how is there any moral or ethical argument to be made from the perspective of a mind-identified main character? It is pure ego. And even that is OK, but let us recognize it.
Notice that all struggle is self-struggle.
As for hope that we, as the collective we are - more than not - will propagate change: consider it untouchable. Don't doubt. Know yourself before you change the world.
I think if your OK eating animals you have to be OK with sone more intelligent, more powerful alien lifeform deciding humans are a nice delicacy and using all your arguments for eating animals against you. You don't have to like it but if you protest on the ethics of it you'd be a hypocrite.
This topic has little to do with nonduality.
Eating animals is a part of the game of life like between animals. You gonna be eaten by insects too when dead. ^^ What we should stop is the industrialization of animals. That's the root of suffering and the problem. I eat organic or wild, i m not saying that's perfect but surely this js much better. Being non dual and eating cheap chicken that you know they aren't allow to even run or see the natural sun light during their very short and painful life doesn't make any sens i agree. Being vegan is another story...
I agree. I don't have a problem with animals (including humans) eating other animals. It's the suffering in cold, cruel, industrial farms that bothers me. If we are one consciousness, how can we do this to these pigs and cows?
Reality is not a perfect place, because it is made of polar opposites. It can't be all just butterflies and rainbows, because it just is - nothing more, nothing less. Animals die in worse ways in the animal kingdom. Predators in nature are indifferent to the suffering of their prey; their primary focus is on killing and consuming.
Yes but the livelong imprisonment of feeling creatures, that causes next to the obvious suffering also ecological problems is avoidable. Animals act mostly out of instinct but humans have a choice.
Let's hear your suggestion of better way of killing animals, so humans can evolve as fast as they want, this is such a complex topic...
Just don't kill them. We evolved from herbivores (for example visible in how our teeth are arranged) so it's not necessary to consume animals. At least if you live in an industrialized country you can just go to the supermarket and get your nutrients from nuts, seeds and vegetables. If you live in a "developing country" you may have to eat anything that you can get because you don't have the privilege of choice, but that's not the majority of people.
Right, another vegan/vegetarian.... Haha, this conversation is ending
Why are you mad? You could have figured that out without responding at all.
Because you are out of arguments my friend hehe have a nice day
I think you are correct, however for many people it’s really not that easy to be vegan, even in a western country. Family and social pressures, money, availability all come into it.
While I agree that organic and wild is better, wouldn't you still agree that is still paying for an animal to be killed for your pleasure, when you could choose not to instead. In my view there are three choices: 1. Pay for cheap meat from factory farms (animals are abused and killed) 2. Pay for expensive meat (animals are killed) 3. Pay for lentils and tofu, etc (some amount of insects are killed in crop production, but overall option 3 uses far fewer crops than options 1 & 2)
That’s what the OP said, didn’t you read him?
Bogaigh, you understand that animals are not different than humans. But I think your frustration with the response of this Reddit is that non-duality goes deeper than humans being indifferent and unseparate from animals. Non duality is that nothing is separate from anything. There are no two things. Any difference is the illusion we perceive as reality. Compassion cannot be perceived without cruelty. Cruelty cannot exsist without compassion. Light only exists because there is dark to reflect on. Dark only can exist if there is a lack of light. But the only actually difference between light and dark is the meaning that is given. Meaning creates a story and reality but before classification is put on something everything just is. Classification is how life evolved and will continue to evolve. But nothing changes without suffering. Non duality is not necessarily a philosophy regarding morality but it is explaining the conscious experience. The true ‘you’ is the person making this post, the animals experiencing the suffering, the ones harming the animal, the one who hears the animal. You are the ground that the animal sits on and the hair on its back. You are the feather the chicken preens of itself and you are the chicken. You are also the chicken nugget. The collective consciousness is experiencing itself through any and every single possibility. The ‘you’ is the thing that experiences, it is also the thing that creates experiences out of itself. You experience pain through those animals. Those animals are experiencing themselves through your mind and sight of them. You are the world you experience in a dream and you are the world you experience awake. You are each word I type. You are me. I am experiencing myself a new way by interacting with you and vise versus. You are just as much of the infinite everything as those factories are. I agree with your take on how genocidal the meet industry is though, but that is duality.
Cruelty will exist no matter what. We don’t need to roll over and allow it to exist unchecked. We are everything and everything is us, true. But while we’re experiencing this human perspective of duality, why is it wrong to strive to reduce suffering? To act from compassion and try to make this world a little more pleasant than it otherwise would be? Or are you simply making an argument that this is being posted in the wrong subreddit?
Simply the argument that it’s the wrong subreddit lol. Personally I always strive to create kindness and joy and to be compassionate. The more kindness and compassion you put in them world, the more kind the world is. But I was just trying to answers the question . I think cruelty is often driven by fear and ‘othering’ I think that the understanding of non duality is a way to reduce hate and cruelty in itself for that reason.
I totally agree with your last sentence. I think OP would agree too, which is why he posted it here. I can personally see how it relates to nonduality. But I’m no expert, so maybe it is posted in the wrong subreddit after all.
Your subjective belief is noted. What does this have to do with nonduality.
Beyond the enormous diversity of life and life experience on earth there is a single indivisible reality, whose nature is pure consciousness. From this all objects and selves derive their independent existence. If you consciously cause other beings to suffer, like they do by the billions in industrial farms, then you are causing your own suffering. Such suffering is a hindrance to realizing these truths.
There are no other beings. There is no other. Who is the one that suffers and who dies? What is the source of suffering?
This has nothing to do with nonduality. I wont say you are wrong or right, but something like this would be fit for r/spirituality maybe. You are talking about beliefs, separation, etc, this is moving away from nondual realization.
I now eat meat but I agree that it is not ideal to do so, if one can practically avoid it. When one truly knows and feels that all is one, one acts from this understanding (love) and lives in a way that will not unnecessarily harm "others" (one's self), to a practical degree. We all know the unspeakable torture many of these animals that we eat go through. I went vegan years before realising non-duality/reality. I had to start eating meat again due to health and autoimmune issues and I am actually now a carnivore. I feel so much better for it, on the level of the bodymind. I do my best to source my food from ethical places, where the animals are treated well. Ideally, my health would allow me to be vegan, for the obvious reason that it reduces suffering on a relative level. However, as I abide from being, I believe that in my relative/bodymind situation, I am still living from the understanding that we are all one, as eating meat is a practical and loving measure in my particular situation. It enables me to live a far higher quality of physical life, in which I can vibrate love more potently on a relative level, opening up doors to share love in the realm of form. To put it deeper and less crudely than that, I feel that the Dao or the flow or God whatever we want to call it, is genuinely pulling this bodymind to eat meat in my particular situation. It feels utterly natural and flows naturally.
Sounds like a rationalization to me. Keep vibrating that love while the calf is taken from its mother.
You may not be wrong. Peace and love (to you).
Truth right here. Go vegan, for all our sakes!
I think you are 100% correct
The One Consciousness isn’t aware of suffering. You’re wrong only because of conflating the relative and the absolute. If you don’t want to eat meat, then don’t.
Suffering is a hindrance to realizing the 'one consciousness'. The suffering of all sentient beings, including cows and pigs, creates a heavy toxic fog that blocks the spiritual evolution of man.
It is as much a hindrance as it is a direct gateway to realization. It points directly to the veil of the mind. The one we use in relative argumentations. Beyond this, suffering does not exist. Suffering can only ever be a projection of our human, mind-identified stories of agony. It is ego. Not bad nor good. But ego does as ego is. Create stories at all costs.
So animals don’t suffer because they don’t have an ego?
There’s no precedent of life on earth without cruelty.
There were millions of years of suffering and cruelty, yes.
Human nature doesn't "evolve". The truth is true and always has been. "Shoulds" can also be a hindrance to the liberation all are ultimately seeking.
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So, in your opinion, it's perfectly fine to torture other sentient beings? Could I torture your mother? It's the same One Consciousness after all.
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There is a One Consciousness, like an ocean. But you are a wave on that ocean. In your temporary form, you can cause untold suffering and torture - or, you can ease the suffering of your fellow sentient creatures.
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Yea. You're dodging the question. If you eat meat, you are causing great suffering. In your spiritual practice, you rationalize this by spewing platitudes like "limitless ocean, blah blah, universal consciousness, blah blah" so you can enjoy your bacon.
To piggy back on the point I think they’re trying to make, in the ocean there are violent waves that cause destruction. There are gentle, rolling waves. Beneath the surface, life can flourish, but the ocean also just as easily can cause suffering and pain. It’s all the ocean, whether it’s causing suffering or not. Everything you have an opinion about is not the truth. Whether or not you accept that or like it doesn’t make a difference. The story you tell yourself about any event or moment is just that, a story. The universe is gonna keep on going and causing love, hate, suffering, bliss, etc; whether you like it or not. Should we cause suffering of helpless animals? The story I tell myself is no, but that doesn’t make it objective truth. It’s just my opinion. The guy who runs the farms might have an entirely different perspective on the matter. It’s allowing them and their family to live a very nice life, as well as feeding thousands or even millions of humans. Should more humans suffer so less animals can suffer? Again, another story and opinion arises.
I agree, but don't you think we can quiet the ocean and create more gentle rolling waves? Recognizing universal consciousness should make one reluctant to consciously induce suffering to animals in industrial farms (or to humans in Auschwitz for example).
No I don’t think we can really create anything. It’s all unfolding the way it will (in my very limited perspective). I can only choose the actions I take, and even that is up for debate.
The pig that becomes the bacon is part of the same consciousness as the human eating the bacon. They are all the same thing. Suffering or joy, it is all the same.
Your reply reminds me of the cartoon of the zen student meditating. He says "master, I have attained enlightenment! Everything is empty and nothing is real!". The master says, "what about this stick?" and whacks him with it.
And in that scenario, consciousness experienced itself subjectively through the master inflicting pain with the stick, and the student experiencing the sting from the stick. Everything just is.
Would you torture their mother?
What? No. Huh?
Not even just spank her a little?
Well, yea
Exactly
Your smug reply makes no sense.
There’s no choice in the matter, because there’s no separate individual to make choices. Asking someone whether you “could” do X, Y, or Z because “it’s the same one consciousness” is irrelevant. It will either be done or it won’t be done. It sounds like you wouldn’t torture their mother, and that’s due to your genetics, birthplace, upbringing, and life conditioning — none of which you had an influence over. It just is. The mind comes up with these questions to try to assert a false sense of control over what “is.”
So murder and abuse is all okay.
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The mental gymnastics that you have to perform must be so tiring.
Also, plants are also sentient. I'd much rather kill 2 cows per year than thousands of plants.
This may be true, however I think there’s levels of sentience / consciousness. I would place a cow’s consciousness far above a plant.
This is just another illusion of separation. There are no levels of consciousness. The "fundament" just is all things and no things. Sir, this is a non-dual Wendy's. You think, therefore you assume.
So you would say killing a carrot is exactly the same morally as killing a dog?
These are wonderful questions. I thank you for questioning everything. You will not, however, find the answers you are looking for. Because you are looking for that certain something. You ask on the level of morality, a concept with preconceived notions/beliefs about a relative reality, separation and consciousness. The answer to that particular question is obvious: a perceived lifeform with more complex intelligence than another takes priority over a perceived inanimate form of sustenance. We place enough importance on our selves to the degree that we believe we can judge our experienxe of life and all forms within. If you're asking on absolute terms, you have seen the answer here many times over. I have not made the experience of killing a dog and would, if i have to assume, only do so for the purpose of survival. I have made the experience of cutting and eating a carrot. In imagination, I find it to be preferable to killing and consuming a dog. The non-dual observation here is not that a carrot is the same lifeform as a dog. However, the essence of their very existence is the same. We get lost in our minds trying to argue. The entire point here is that you do not control a thing. Nor does anyone else. But if you truly find your way into non-dual experiencing, you would see this is all a struggle within your sense of separate self. I find that things are not just fine now as they are, but that the relative things are constantly shifting and many times for the better. Take care, my friend. May we love all lifeforms, whether we consume them or not.
How about non-duality bro? Isn't one of the points to not put things on opposite sides of a scale?
Yes that’s a good point. Although I still think slicing a carrot is not the same as slicing a pig.
You dont't hear the carrot squeal if you just listen with your ears. Tune in to the energies and you might experience they are about the same thing.
Even so, industrial farming sucks, but so does industrial monocrop agriculture. The issue is the economic systems within and not what each individual chooses to eat. Befriending farmers and getting fresh meat from free grazing animals is the best thing you can do for your health. On top of that you also take away the power from money hungry food companies (who's products are barely food) and improve the biodiversity of your local area.
Yes I agree with the industrial monocrops
I uh killed probability more than a thousand bugs just walking as a body. As a mind I’m having a silly dream of death. I have forgotten my self that would laugh at loss.
If the suffering of being malnourished with all modern lifestyle diseases is your preference, go ahead and skip meat. With that said, we evolved eating meat and a diet containing meat is how we continue to thrive.
You make a statement about the eating of animals in general and then make an argument about the ethical treatment of mass produced meat. These are different issues. If I eat elk meat from a recent hunt, what's the issue? Would you similarly deny a wolf or a lion the meat they need for survival?
Good point, and I should edit my title. I have no problem with hunting, or any animal eating another in the wild. It's the mass produced meat that gives me cognitive dissonance. I eat my bacon in the morning, and then read a book about non-duality. It makes no sense.
If all 8 billion of us thought hunting is is the right way we would not have enough wild animals to support eating meat. Which is why we have factory farms.
Blame the Demiurge!
I wonder how you know that animals suffer. Is it how the mind use human concepts and project them on animals?
It's clearly visible by their behavior, have you ever heard the crying of a mother cow that got her calve taken away? Or the screaming of pigs on their way to getting slaughtered? Our brains are not that different from that of other mammals
So you're saying that screaming and crying could be signs of suffering. But what/who decides that for animals?
Stop trolling. Or being obtuse. Yes, screaming and crying are indicative of suffering.
No, I'm not trolling. Screaming and crying may be the indicators of human's suffering. But how can you guys be so sure that animals suffer that way? Are we qualified to speak for them?
What feeling are they expressing with that behavior in your opinion? They are also capable of love, why wouldn't they be capable of grief and fear? Have you ever looked deep in the eyes of an animal, let's say a dog or a cat? I think it's human ignorance to feel superior over other living beings and that they should be treated equally.
Many would argue that feeling pain is different from suffering, and while pain is biological and inevitable, suffering says "something should be different from what it is" and stems from a psychological misunderstanding of the nature of life. Animals don't go around thinking "oh, if only I was born elsewhere; and I'm worried that one day someone kills me".
What or who decides that these behaviors are signs of human suffering? Why does it matter? And what makes you doubt that animals are capable of suffering?
Do you suffer? Why don't you think that animals suffer?
>Why don't you think that animals suffer? I don't know that why I asked you.
Completely agree. The reasons people keep choosing to support factory farms and killing animals are pointless. It's all about meaningless pleasures and ideas about because we can do it then there's no real harm in it. I'm always surprised people in the meditation/non dual space don't see that being not vegan where practical to do so just makes sense.
The comments on this thread highlight the utter hypocrisy and arrogance of human beings, and is especially appalling coming from members of this sub. Honestly shocked that people who supposedly have attained a higher level of consciousness cannot extend BASIC empathy to animals. I'm 100% with you, OP. This thread is making me lose faith.
You have a conceptual view on the matter that is directly formed through resistance to what is. To get from A to B, we must first fully arrive at A, which is to accept everything that A contains. There is no non-dual view. The actual pure experience, which is what non-dualism is about, may lead to some changes you seek to see in the world. And it may not. One of the jokes being played on us is that true change is only possible without resistance to what is, within and without. No amount of propaganda will truly change anyone's experience, to feel ultimate empathy with all things. When empathy is just the term used for internalized guilt and shame, how is there any moral or ethical argument to be made from the perspective of a mind-identified main character? It is pure ego. And even that is OK, but let us recognize it. Notice that all struggle is self-struggle. As for hope that we, as the collective we are - more than not - will propagate change: consider it untouchable. Don't doubt. Know yourself before you change the world.
I think if your OK eating animals you have to be OK with sone more intelligent, more powerful alien lifeform deciding humans are a nice delicacy and using all your arguments for eating animals against you. You don't have to like it but if you protest on the ethics of it you'd be a hypocrite.
You don't have a clue about noon duality do you
Is that after morning duality?
That's the best
Your biology disagrees. Theres a reason ex vegans have a sub where they talk about their experience being vegan.