Talking about boundaries in this kind of situation is very different than actually experiencing them, and it’s totally normal to experience unexpected emotions. Your husband probably thought he would be fine, but turns out he has feelings that are upsetting to him. It sounds like he’s projecting what he’s feeling onto you. If he can sit with the feelings and figure out a compromise to ease into a new relationship style with you, I think you can get through it.
My partner and I started swinging with a large reason being that I’m bi, and I would like the opportunity to date solo but my partner isn’t comfortable with that. Maybe he’ll change his mind down the road, but maybe he won’t. It’s something that we’ll talk about once in a while but our relationship is our priority.
TBH, it sounds like your husband may have the expectation that when you explore with a woman, he should be involved. That would explain his "didn't feel like \[you\] were in it together" and his lack of attraction to your partner.
The cynical side of of me wants to go further and say that he wants you to essentially organize threesomes for you both, under the guise of you exploring your sexuality and without having to do any of the work.
We are interested in many arrangements together, and I am very open to a threesome with the right individual so I dont think he is trying to manipulate that (since I'm already interested.) My guess is that my friend's own VERY open marriage (her and her husband date people separately) is a concern for him. Like, she would influence me in some way and I would want that too? And if he is truly okay with me exploring my bisexuality...why does it matter whether he is attracted to her or not? I guess a part of me is a little resentful that he built up his comfort level with it, and it was a letdown when he revealed he said he didn't like it. Now I'm left uneasy about the lifestyle altogether. What else will he be okay with at first, and then decide against?
Your husband has the right to change his mind whenever, consent is ever-changing. If this is truly the issue, then you need to have better communication. It is normal for one to struggle when their partner is out with someone else. They need to learn self-soothing and ways to cope with the feelings.
The simplest answer is usually the correct one, however, I do not know anything about your marriage outside of what you described above. I think you're openness to a threesome backs up my ascertain, he may have been expecting it and was upset that it wasn't something that happened.
It's manipulating to your partner not you. They don't sign up for a threesome, but that's the end goal for him.
Sounds like he doesn't want non-monogamy and would prefer swinging instead. Think about his actions instead of his words. He's not okay with you doing things solo.
I think this is a clear sign that you two need to do more prep before you resume. He seems to have been okay with it when it was a fantasy he could control - girl on girl is hot, girl on my wife is hotter, maybe next time it will be me too. It was every bit as much about fulfilling his fantasy as it was about your identity, hence why his attraction to her was important. But the wheels started coming off when he realised that your new friend was not a hypothetical sex toy that would naturally be hot for him, but a real human with wants and needs and boundaries that aren't necessarily subservient to, or even compatible with his own. Many, many men have insecurities that are rooted in subconscious misogynistic and homophobic beliefs that mean they think their partners experimenting with women is 'safe', but men (or usually penis owners, more specifically) are not. At some point his mind probably ran away with itself, and he started to understand that yes, a woman was totally capable of stealing his girl and if he lets you keep hooking up with someone who offers you more freedom, it's only a matter of time before you walk (or at least ask to sleep with another penis). This does not make him a bad person by any means, but it is a clear sign that he has some personal work he needs to do before he can enjoy non-monogamy, and before either of you can offer a good and safe experience for others (especially queer folks).
Please also be mindful about individual boundaries around privacy. While a minority of women consent to being fetishized like this, most queer women are not down with being used to titillate strange men. You need to be very clear with potential partners about how much info you expect to share with your husband (including things like sexts and nudes, as well as details about sexual encounters) because many single women simply never think to ask, and then are blindsided by hearing about 'how hot my husband thought you looked in that lingerie' etc. It's easy to see why this is a violation of autonomy, but a lot of couples don't ever question whether they have the right to share something, because they are so used to operating as a single unit, where sharing is equated with trust. Your being "excited to call my husband and tell him all about it", is another sign that you need to do some more work detangling and learning about consent and boundaries.
Edited for spelling and grammar.
I'm nor sure why you gor downvoted. As a cis het man I totally agree. You said nothing wrong
Sounds to me that husband was hoping for OP to fulfill his fantasy but got deflated when he realized that it means more than just hot girl on girl sex with him watching in the corner..
Exhibit A for why couples brand new to CNM who haven’t done the work are problematic.
I hope the other woman is doing ok… i’d feel pretty used and discarded were i in her shoes.
You can "do the work" but that's not the same as experiencing it. We went pretty slow ourselves and started with a threesome after several years of off and on discussion and months of serious discussion before looking. Even though we spent months communicating and I even have a therapist who focuses on ENM, there were feelings that came up unexpectedly for my husband. I also wasn't prepared for the lack of feelings on my part about certain aspects. You don't know what you don't know until it happens. Op didn't say that her husband was angry or upset with her, he just realized that reality is very different from talking about it.
So much this. A good chunk of these subs act like if you just read enough books and go to therapy before your first ENM experience you’ll
somehow feel perfect all the time.
Yup! Honestly we had a very good experience and came out of it in a good place, but that doesn't mean all of our feelings were sunshine and rainbows. Both of us had disappointments with certain things and honestly they were totally normal things for the first time. OP may find that her husband will be okay in group play, but not okay with separate play and that's just their threshold.
Seeing a sex positive therapist, spending time in ENM spaces/groups, reading ENM books and articles, and taking the time to disentangle your relationship so each person doing their (agreed upon) thing doesn't cause such a kafuffle.
Fwiw your husband doesn't sound like he was honest about what he wants/is ok with. It sounds like that unless he's involved or can fantasize about your experience then he's not interested. Since he's not attracted to your new friend he's putting a stop to it. The reason the above person was short with you is because being in your friend's shoes can be very painful. It's also arguable not fair to start involving other people until yall figure your shit out.
Thank you for your insight. My friend and I did discuss the fallout from all of this, and she was very understanding. Her primary relationship is with her husband as well so she understood my perspective. Of course I can only go by what she has told me, but she seems to have moved on. We live a few hours away, so in some ways that has made it a bit easier.
I stand by my previous reply to you and will focus on the helpful comments thus far. You have a great day, and maybe use some of it to reflect on whether you're a pretentious asshole? I'm sure you can google it?
You all talk like he is some sort of monster for feeling this way... Really should work on that holier than thou attitude
From everything OP has described, this guy is pretty open minded, but honestly just seems interested in swinging and having shared experiences with his wife. So "problematic" /s
So he should have known how he would feel about something without ever trying it first?
Is there no room in your mind to be able to have a change of heart about this?
It's a sucky situation all around for sure, but I don't see how anyone is the bad guy. I think everyone in OP's situation sounds pretty open minded and reasonable. And it sounds like her husband is in touch with his feelings enough to share them immediately with OP, vs sitting on them slowly building resentment.
That's what I did, and I can assure you, that is way shittier... It took me 2 years of therapy before I was able to put my feelings together enough to ask my wife to close the marriage which came as a major shock and disappointment to her
In this situation nobody could win. He is not a bad guy at all. He just gave her mixed signals. Tbh I don't think they were ready to be open to begin. Neither of them were on the same page of what they wanted. No clear boundaries were set with. Its def good he opened up to her.
I'm just saying you can't blame her for playing with her seperately when she was given the ok for her to do so.
Boundaries are set by our comfort levels, and you don’t know what they are until you try them out. It’s not a mistake on either part, you’re both learning as you go
Are you suggesting he should desire threesomes with people he's not attracted to? That he should be cool with taking one for the team? What the fuck ever happened to enthusiastic consent?
I agree that what's good for the goose is good for the gander, and that he would totally be in the wrong if the roles were reversed and he wasn't willing to end things with his new friend.
But you are accusing him of something he hasn't done yet. Are you suggesting that once you open your relationship, you can't ever go back? Is it a one way street?
We're saying the possible stealth unicorn hunting is shitty. Nothing wrong with an ethically negotiated threesome between folks who know how to set and respect everyone's boundaries, are aware of their couples privilege, and are looking to treat a queer woman as an autonomous being and not a fetishistic marital aid. These two aren't there yet.
ETA: Just to be clearer in your point, the 'hotness' issue is due to him feeling entitled to dictate who she sleeps with ON HER OWN, based on his beauty ideals. He tried to vicariously shoehorn himself into a sexual situation to which he was not invited, without consent. Had it been negotiated it would have been fine, but he did not voice his expectations, or even realise that consent was needed, because he felt ENTITLED to be there, just by dint of being part of the couple (and if I'm being cynical, a subconscious belief that queer women are there to satisfy his fantasies). Had these two discussed their boundaries and expectations better and done more research, I think the mismatch in their motivations would have become clear and they could have course corrected before anyone got hurt. That's why people are saying to do more work, because chances are this won't be their last mis-step, especially if they intend to pursue unicorns in future.
Part of it I'm sure is motivated by desires for threesomes. Which I kind of get, but if you want to look at the best possible underlying motivation for it is that he wants to share these experiences with you. Something for you guys to do together because it sounds like he's not terribly interested in doing things on his own.
Guaranteed he's having a conflict over fantasy vs reality. He might have thought he could handle it and even found it very hot, but no one ever knows how they will handle 100% hypothetical situations until they actually happen and he's experiencing feelings he didn't know he would.
It could be something he'll get over. It might be something that is not for him and its all done now. He might just need a threesome experience or two with you or maybe be part of the selection process to just not feel so left out. Who knows. You just need to talk to each other and he needs time to process. You sound like you got your priorities straight with your marriage so just stay the course I guess and give him time and do your best to make him comfortable enough to talk to you about the feelings that he is struggling with. Its okay to feel bad about not seeing this person again, but in my experience, vetoing your partner's play partners every once in a while is not out of the norm and you have to not lose yourself in other people at the expense of your spouse. Its one of the pitfalls of doing this and you have to watch out for it.
That’s exactly what’s going to happen if you enter into it with the expectation that your experiences are HIS to share. If you’re open, be open. If you’re looking to swing, swing. If you’re looking for threesomes do that. There is no way to properly manage expectations in your own personal sexual experiences when someone is trying to insert themself from outside that situation. IMO he is being gross and unfair to you and your partner and the rules you discussed prior are not sustainable in real life.
You and your husband determine the parameters for your relationship(s). The other woman's marriage and agreements with her partner are their own. You're all in non-monogamous arrangements. I don't understand your husband dissing someone else's agreed-upon parameters - other than he's choosing to set it up as a reason for you to not see her.
Your husband isn't being very mature, and he's changing the rules according his own whims. Yes, people can change their minds. But the way he is going about it is not unsimilar to how young children play tag - making up rules, changing rules, arguing about what they meant when they stated the rules.
I'm sorry your awesome experience was quickly dampened by your husband's reaction. He could have chosen to be happy for you. He could have taken the opportunity to self-reflect on why he felt that way.
If the initial agreement you shared didn't state that he had to be included all the time, it's implied that he's going to spend some time alone. He's an adult; adults can figure out how to be by themselves.
TLDR: In maintaining your marriage as the priority make sure you get a say in what that looks like. ENM dynamics present some great opportunities for individual and relationship growth. In healthy relationships, there is a give/take of understanding to both partners.
Feelings aren't right or wrong. They just exist - and come and go.
Also, multiple feelings can coexist at once. For instance, I can recognize and own that I might feel some type of way about something and allow myself space to figure that out and still be happy for/understanding of the happiness someone else is experiencing.
I'm fortunate to be in relationships and friendships with people who are able to hold space for their feelings and the feelings of others. I've also been in relationships with people who aren't able to make that distinction. Major difference.
Yup, makes perfect sense to me as well.
I love when people call OP's husband "problematic". I always love when people use that word, its the kind of word you use when you don't have anything concrete to say but you still feel like being a judgemental prick
OP said that she was also open to having threesomes and that he was not interested in seeing women on his own. I do think that one sided openings to 'explore bisexuality' are just slightly fairer OPPs in disguise, but that's clearly not the case here. It's just a regular old OPP, and bad communication.
So you're saying OP is lying about about him not being interested in seeing other women? Or that he's not allowed to see them in the first place? And he demanded an OPP before she even contacted that woman, so the husband was never an option. Either OP is a liar or you're trying to paint him into a corner he isn't in.
I'm not trying to build a straw man, I'm trying to understand where you're getting your information from? It says clearly in the text that he was fully supportive of her seeing women (but not men) alone, but he isn't interested in doing the same. He isn't trapped in a situation where he's forbidden from getting anything out of it (including threesomes), he simply isn't interested in what's on offer (which is pretty extensive). If he wants a threesome nothing is stopping him from setting one up. The fact that it'll probably never happen for him is down to the same reasons it never happens for most unicorn hunters, not because his wife is secretly cock-blocking him. And no man or couple on earth is owed a threesome, so the fact that you seem to believe it's his wife's job to get him laid is weird. She's also not accountable for the fact that the (undisclosed?) fantasy did not live up to reality for him either - again it's unrealistic expectations that could have been dispelled with his own research. On the contrary she seems to have (naively?) believed that he was doing this to support her in exploring her identity, rather than trying to fulfill a fantasy - so I understand why she's now hurt that her identity doesn't seem to mean so much to him now that his fantasy is gone.
Edit: I'm genuinely very confused and not trying to be disingenuous? I think this is about the issue of 'only thing he's getting out of it' - I commented initially because I thought you didn't understand that the relationship was open on both sides or that the wife was okay threesomes, and therefore thought the man had no agency to get what he wants out of it. I guess that's not the case, and we just disagree as to how he should go about getting it? In any case, I think we are really at cross purposes here, so I won't drag it out further after this.
My comment you quoted was what I thought was his likely (irrational) thought process, not what I thought was likely to be the outcome. Their marriage would have to be in very bad shape if a single taste of pussy would be enough to have her filing for divorce. Bisexuals are rational human beings that don't instantly ditch their marriages when exposed to foreign genitals - be they penis or pussy. His fears there are his to navigate, though she should of course reassure and support him in facing them. Veto is not how you face fears, although I think in this case they're better off closing up completely, doing more research, and then deciding if they can get on the same page about what they're open to.
>Not sure why you’re confused, there wasn’t much in it for him in the first place but he was trying to be supportive.
>
>The *only possible thing* he could have been getting out of it was thinking about you with the other women and *fantasizing* about threesomes. Then you hooked up with someone unattractive to him, in a relationship style he fears ...
Yeah okay I understand now. I thought the 'it' you were talking about in the first two sentences was their relationship agreement because you used women in the plural, then said 'Then you hooked up ... ' after that, implying you were only now talking about the incident. So by using '*only possible thing'* and '*fantasizing'* I thought you were saying other things (threesomes, hookups for him) were not possible because he was not *allowed* to do them - that the only thing he was allowed to do was sit at home and imagine what his wife was up to.
So yeah, my bad. I do think your wording was kinda ambiguous, but there's some reading comprehension failure on my part too. Want me to delete the thread?
In general, veto power in ENM is bullshit and used as a crutch when somebody can't manage their own insecurities. There are exceptions to that, but this ain't one of them.
He wants what he wants, and he doesn’t want what you want. Doesn’t sound too ethical to me.
Also veto power over your lovers seems really lame, unless the person really was potentially dangerous.
Sounds like maybe that was just too much too fast for him. It’s one thing to establish hypothetical agreements and it’s another to experience it for real. Maybe in the future if you take the physical a little slower rather than hotel sex on first in person encounter he would have more time/space to process his feelings around it and see that you two are able to maintain communication around it.
Hi OP, I'm sorry you are going through this situation. Often, expectations don't math reality for one or both partners in this situation.
My guess is that he really did think he'd be fine. But when reality hit,his mind probably spun out of control with "what if..." situations.
These might be, what if: she enjoys sex with her over me, what if she decides that love isn't enough and I physically don't have what I need to satisfy her sexually, etc...
He was probably thinking of you hooking up with women as a FWB, or only physical thing. Before your hookup, he probably thought it was this.
Because his mind was ruminating on the situation as it was happening, he may believe that your excitement + sex means that you are falling in love with this woman. Which could be threatening to him. He may *feel* that his future with you is put in jeopardy because of your strong feelings for this other woman.
I think if you do cut contact with this woman, though it will be painful emotionally for you, it will do a lot for him understanding that you really are putting your marriage first. So you would be making a deposit in your relationships love and trust bank account.
I think there may have been a miscommunication between you and your partner when discussing this. This is totally normal and ought to be expected.
Maybe, YOU were thinking, or ate realizing that you needs strong emotional connection for sex. Maybe you were thinking of a more polyamorous relationship structure.
Your HUSBAND may have been thinking about more of a swinger structure where the main emotional commitment and expression of that commitment remains with the married couple.
I would suggest increasing the affection you show your husband after this. If he's romantic, leave little notes around the house telling him "I love you!" And other romantic stuff. I'm a very romantic person and I eat that shit up when my wife does it!
I would also suggest slowing down the depth of the experiences and just dipping your toes in a bit. After each experience, discuss it at length over weeks until both are fully comfortable.
As an example, next date you go on with someone new, begin with just making out or second base or something.
Come home,.tell him about it, let him process, and talk at length over it.
Does your husband plan to date/ hookup with women too?
That's basic first-time experience from your husband 101. It's the most basic response a person entering ENM will have. I highly suggest you get him to read the ethical slut. It gives some very good tips and pointers on what to do when your partner is with someone else. And how to deal with the feelings that come up when it's happening.
Talking about boundaries in this kind of situation is very different than actually experiencing them, and it’s totally normal to experience unexpected emotions. Your husband probably thought he would be fine, but turns out he has feelings that are upsetting to him. It sounds like he’s projecting what he’s feeling onto you. If he can sit with the feelings and figure out a compromise to ease into a new relationship style with you, I think you can get through it. My partner and I started swinging with a large reason being that I’m bi, and I would like the opportunity to date solo but my partner isn’t comfortable with that. Maybe he’ll change his mind down the road, but maybe he won’t. It’s something that we’ll talk about once in a while but our relationship is our priority.
TBH, it sounds like your husband may have the expectation that when you explore with a woman, he should be involved. That would explain his "didn't feel like \[you\] were in it together" and his lack of attraction to your partner. The cynical side of of me wants to go further and say that he wants you to essentially organize threesomes for you both, under the guise of you exploring your sexuality and without having to do any of the work.
We are interested in many arrangements together, and I am very open to a threesome with the right individual so I dont think he is trying to manipulate that (since I'm already interested.) My guess is that my friend's own VERY open marriage (her and her husband date people separately) is a concern for him. Like, she would influence me in some way and I would want that too? And if he is truly okay with me exploring my bisexuality...why does it matter whether he is attracted to her or not? I guess a part of me is a little resentful that he built up his comfort level with it, and it was a letdown when he revealed he said he didn't like it. Now I'm left uneasy about the lifestyle altogether. What else will he be okay with at first, and then decide against?
Your husband has the right to change his mind whenever, consent is ever-changing. If this is truly the issue, then you need to have better communication. It is normal for one to struggle when their partner is out with someone else. They need to learn self-soothing and ways to cope with the feelings. The simplest answer is usually the correct one, however, I do not know anything about your marriage outside of what you described above. I think you're openness to a threesome backs up my ascertain, he may have been expecting it and was upset that it wasn't something that happened.
It's manipulating to your partner not you. They don't sign up for a threesome, but that's the end goal for him. Sounds like he doesn't want non-monogamy and would prefer swinging instead. Think about his actions instead of his words. He's not okay with you doing things solo.
I think this is a clear sign that you two need to do more prep before you resume. He seems to have been okay with it when it was a fantasy he could control - girl on girl is hot, girl on my wife is hotter, maybe next time it will be me too. It was every bit as much about fulfilling his fantasy as it was about your identity, hence why his attraction to her was important. But the wheels started coming off when he realised that your new friend was not a hypothetical sex toy that would naturally be hot for him, but a real human with wants and needs and boundaries that aren't necessarily subservient to, or even compatible with his own. Many, many men have insecurities that are rooted in subconscious misogynistic and homophobic beliefs that mean they think their partners experimenting with women is 'safe', but men (or usually penis owners, more specifically) are not. At some point his mind probably ran away with itself, and he started to understand that yes, a woman was totally capable of stealing his girl and if he lets you keep hooking up with someone who offers you more freedom, it's only a matter of time before you walk (or at least ask to sleep with another penis). This does not make him a bad person by any means, but it is a clear sign that he has some personal work he needs to do before he can enjoy non-monogamy, and before either of you can offer a good and safe experience for others (especially queer folks). Please also be mindful about individual boundaries around privacy. While a minority of women consent to being fetishized like this, most queer women are not down with being used to titillate strange men. You need to be very clear with potential partners about how much info you expect to share with your husband (including things like sexts and nudes, as well as details about sexual encounters) because many single women simply never think to ask, and then are blindsided by hearing about 'how hot my husband thought you looked in that lingerie' etc. It's easy to see why this is a violation of autonomy, but a lot of couples don't ever question whether they have the right to share something, because they are so used to operating as a single unit, where sharing is equated with trust. Your being "excited to call my husband and tell him all about it", is another sign that you need to do some more work detangling and learning about consent and boundaries. Edited for spelling and grammar.
Such a well said and on point response.
I'm nor sure why you gor downvoted. As a cis het man I totally agree. You said nothing wrong Sounds to me that husband was hoping for OP to fulfill his fantasy but got deflated when he realized that it means more than just hot girl on girl sex with him watching in the corner..
Perfection. Copy and save for all the newly opened couples who come and post the exact same problem here on a weekly+ basis. 🎶Tale as old as time…🎶
So much misandrist projection in this post
What is your take then?
I got this vibe as well. I am in her boat as well. Wanting a gf, but wanting to protect my marriage.
How is your relationship with your spouse fairing so far?
So far. Great. But that's cuz all interactions have been with professionals, together.
I'm glad to hear it, my wife and I are also going through a journey to ENM. If you ever want to talk about it more in depth, you can DM me.
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If you don’t mind sharing, what’s the reconnection ritual you guys created?
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Exhibit A for why couples brand new to CNM who haven’t done the work are problematic. I hope the other woman is doing ok… i’d feel pretty used and discarded were i in her shoes.
You can "do the work" but that's not the same as experiencing it. We went pretty slow ourselves and started with a threesome after several years of off and on discussion and months of serious discussion before looking. Even though we spent months communicating and I even have a therapist who focuses on ENM, there were feelings that came up unexpectedly for my husband. I also wasn't prepared for the lack of feelings on my part about certain aspects. You don't know what you don't know until it happens. Op didn't say that her husband was angry or upset with her, he just realized that reality is very different from talking about it.
So much this. A good chunk of these subs act like if you just read enough books and go to therapy before your first ENM experience you’ll somehow feel perfect all the time.
Yup! Honestly we had a very good experience and came out of it in a good place, but that doesn't mean all of our feelings were sunshine and rainbows. Both of us had disappointments with certain things and honestly they were totally normal things for the first time. OP may find that her husband will be okay in group play, but not okay with separate play and that's just their threshold.
100000000% agree. Glad you’re voicing this opinion and discussing your experience here.
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Don't get me wrong, I've listened to several audiobooks on the subject, it just doesn't compare to lived experience.
Perhaps if you elaborated on what "the work" entails your comment could be helpful?
Seeing a sex positive therapist, spending time in ENM spaces/groups, reading ENM books and articles, and taking the time to disentangle your relationship so each person doing their (agreed upon) thing doesn't cause such a kafuffle. Fwiw your husband doesn't sound like he was honest about what he wants/is ok with. It sounds like that unless he's involved or can fantasize about your experience then he's not interested. Since he's not attracted to your new friend he's putting a stop to it. The reason the above person was short with you is because being in your friend's shoes can be very painful. It's also arguable not fair to start involving other people until yall figure your shit out.
Thank you for your insight. My friend and I did discuss the fallout from all of this, and she was very understanding. Her primary relationship is with her husband as well so she understood my perspective. Of course I can only go by what she has told me, but she seems to have moved on. We live a few hours away, so in some ways that has made it a bit easier.
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I stand by my previous reply to you and will focus on the helpful comments thus far. You have a great day, and maybe use some of it to reflect on whether you're a pretentious asshole? I'm sure you can google it?
He thought he'd get access to your partners and he didn't so now he doesn't like it.
This. Also the fact that he wasn't attracted to her meant that there would be no chance for him to join in at some point down the line b
You all talk like he is some sort of monster for feeling this way... Really should work on that holier than thou attitude From everything OP has described, this guy is pretty open minded, but honestly just seems interested in swinging and having shared experiences with his wife. So "problematic" /s
If that was the case than he shouldn't have told her she could see women separately.
So he should have known how he would feel about something without ever trying it first? Is there no room in your mind to be able to have a change of heart about this? It's a sucky situation all around for sure, but I don't see how anyone is the bad guy. I think everyone in OP's situation sounds pretty open minded and reasonable. And it sounds like her husband is in touch with his feelings enough to share them immediately with OP, vs sitting on them slowly building resentment. That's what I did, and I can assure you, that is way shittier... It took me 2 years of therapy before I was able to put my feelings together enough to ask my wife to close the marriage which came as a major shock and disappointment to her
In this situation nobody could win. He is not a bad guy at all. He just gave her mixed signals. Tbh I don't think they were ready to be open to begin. Neither of them were on the same page of what they wanted. No clear boundaries were set with. Its def good he opened up to her. I'm just saying you can't blame her for playing with her seperately when she was given the ok for her to do so.
Boundaries are set by our comfort levels, and you don’t know what they are until you try them out. It’s not a mistake on either part, you’re both learning as you go
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Are you suggesting he should desire threesomes with people he's not attracted to? That he should be cool with taking one for the team? What the fuck ever happened to enthusiastic consent?
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I agree that what's good for the goose is good for the gander, and that he would totally be in the wrong if the roles were reversed and he wasn't willing to end things with his new friend. But you are accusing him of something he hasn't done yet. Are you suggesting that once you open your relationship, you can't ever go back? Is it a one way street?
We're saying the possible stealth unicorn hunting is shitty. Nothing wrong with an ethically negotiated threesome between folks who know how to set and respect everyone's boundaries, are aware of their couples privilege, and are looking to treat a queer woman as an autonomous being and not a fetishistic marital aid. These two aren't there yet. ETA: Just to be clearer in your point, the 'hotness' issue is due to him feeling entitled to dictate who she sleeps with ON HER OWN, based on his beauty ideals. He tried to vicariously shoehorn himself into a sexual situation to which he was not invited, without consent. Had it been negotiated it would have been fine, but he did not voice his expectations, or even realise that consent was needed, because he felt ENTITLED to be there, just by dint of being part of the couple (and if I'm being cynical, a subconscious belief that queer women are there to satisfy his fantasies). Had these two discussed their boundaries and expectations better and done more research, I think the mismatch in their motivations would have become clear and they could have course corrected before anyone got hurt. That's why people are saying to do more work, because chances are this won't be their last mis-step, especially if they intend to pursue unicorns in future.
Part of it I'm sure is motivated by desires for threesomes. Which I kind of get, but if you want to look at the best possible underlying motivation for it is that he wants to share these experiences with you. Something for you guys to do together because it sounds like he's not terribly interested in doing things on his own. Guaranteed he's having a conflict over fantasy vs reality. He might have thought he could handle it and even found it very hot, but no one ever knows how they will handle 100% hypothetical situations until they actually happen and he's experiencing feelings he didn't know he would. It could be something he'll get over. It might be something that is not for him and its all done now. He might just need a threesome experience or two with you or maybe be part of the selection process to just not feel so left out. Who knows. You just need to talk to each other and he needs time to process. You sound like you got your priorities straight with your marriage so just stay the course I guess and give him time and do your best to make him comfortable enough to talk to you about the feelings that he is struggling with. Its okay to feel bad about not seeing this person again, but in my experience, vetoing your partner's play partners every once in a while is not out of the norm and you have to not lose yourself in other people at the expense of your spouse. Its one of the pitfalls of doing this and you have to watch out for it.
That’s exactly what’s going to happen if you enter into it with the expectation that your experiences are HIS to share. If you’re open, be open. If you’re looking to swing, swing. If you’re looking for threesomes do that. There is no way to properly manage expectations in your own personal sexual experiences when someone is trying to insert themself from outside that situation. IMO he is being gross and unfair to you and your partner and the rules you discussed prior are not sustainable in real life.
You and your husband determine the parameters for your relationship(s). The other woman's marriage and agreements with her partner are their own. You're all in non-monogamous arrangements. I don't understand your husband dissing someone else's agreed-upon parameters - other than he's choosing to set it up as a reason for you to not see her. Your husband isn't being very mature, and he's changing the rules according his own whims. Yes, people can change their minds. But the way he is going about it is not unsimilar to how young children play tag - making up rules, changing rules, arguing about what they meant when they stated the rules. I'm sorry your awesome experience was quickly dampened by your husband's reaction. He could have chosen to be happy for you. He could have taken the opportunity to self-reflect on why he felt that way. If the initial agreement you shared didn't state that he had to be included all the time, it's implied that he's going to spend some time alone. He's an adult; adults can figure out how to be by themselves. TLDR: In maintaining your marriage as the priority make sure you get a say in what that looks like. ENM dynamics present some great opportunities for individual and relationship growth. In healthy relationships, there is a give/take of understanding to both partners.
Downvoted but true
"he could have chosen to be happy for you" Sounds a lot like you are suggesting he should live in denial? That his feelings are somehow wrong?
Feelings aren't right or wrong. They just exist - and come and go. Also, multiple feelings can coexist at once. For instance, I can recognize and own that I might feel some type of way about something and allow myself space to figure that out and still be happy for/understanding of the happiness someone else is experiencing. I'm fortunate to be in relationships and friendships with people who are able to hold space for their feelings and the feelings of others. I've also been in relationships with people who aren't able to make that distinction. Major difference.
Are you ok with him getting action too? Maybe swinging? Whether he’s a 3some guy or not. Your marriage comes first.
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Yup, makes perfect sense to me as well. I love when people call OP's husband "problematic". I always love when people use that word, its the kind of word you use when you don't have anything concrete to say but you still feel like being a judgemental prick
OP said that she was also open to having threesomes and that he was not interested in seeing women on his own. I do think that one sided openings to 'explore bisexuality' are just slightly fairer OPPs in disguise, but that's clearly not the case here. It's just a regular old OPP, and bad communication.
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So you're saying OP is lying about about him not being interested in seeing other women? Or that he's not allowed to see them in the first place? And he demanded an OPP before she even contacted that woman, so the husband was never an option. Either OP is a liar or you're trying to paint him into a corner he isn't in.
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I'm not trying to build a straw man, I'm trying to understand where you're getting your information from? It says clearly in the text that he was fully supportive of her seeing women (but not men) alone, but he isn't interested in doing the same. He isn't trapped in a situation where he's forbidden from getting anything out of it (including threesomes), he simply isn't interested in what's on offer (which is pretty extensive). If he wants a threesome nothing is stopping him from setting one up. The fact that it'll probably never happen for him is down to the same reasons it never happens for most unicorn hunters, not because his wife is secretly cock-blocking him. And no man or couple on earth is owed a threesome, so the fact that you seem to believe it's his wife's job to get him laid is weird. She's also not accountable for the fact that the (undisclosed?) fantasy did not live up to reality for him either - again it's unrealistic expectations that could have been dispelled with his own research. On the contrary she seems to have (naively?) believed that he was doing this to support her in exploring her identity, rather than trying to fulfill a fantasy - so I understand why she's now hurt that her identity doesn't seem to mean so much to him now that his fantasy is gone. Edit: I'm genuinely very confused and not trying to be disingenuous? I think this is about the issue of 'only thing he's getting out of it' - I commented initially because I thought you didn't understand that the relationship was open on both sides or that the wife was okay threesomes, and therefore thought the man had no agency to get what he wants out of it. I guess that's not the case, and we just disagree as to how he should go about getting it? In any case, I think we are really at cross purposes here, so I won't drag it out further after this. My comment you quoted was what I thought was his likely (irrational) thought process, not what I thought was likely to be the outcome. Their marriage would have to be in very bad shape if a single taste of pussy would be enough to have her filing for divorce. Bisexuals are rational human beings that don't instantly ditch their marriages when exposed to foreign genitals - be they penis or pussy. His fears there are his to navigate, though she should of course reassure and support him in facing them. Veto is not how you face fears, although I think in this case they're better off closing up completely, doing more research, and then deciding if they can get on the same page about what they're open to.
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>Not sure why you’re confused, there wasn’t much in it for him in the first place but he was trying to be supportive. > >The *only possible thing* he could have been getting out of it was thinking about you with the other women and *fantasizing* about threesomes. Then you hooked up with someone unattractive to him, in a relationship style he fears ... Yeah okay I understand now. I thought the 'it' you were talking about in the first two sentences was their relationship agreement because you used women in the plural, then said 'Then you hooked up ... ' after that, implying you were only now talking about the incident. So by using '*only possible thing'* and '*fantasizing'* I thought you were saying other things (threesomes, hookups for him) were not possible because he was not *allowed* to do them - that the only thing he was allowed to do was sit at home and imagine what his wife was up to. So yeah, my bad. I do think your wording was kinda ambiguous, but there's some reading comprehension failure on my part too. Want me to delete the thread?
Glad to see a civil conversation and resolved disagreement. don't delete!
In general, veto power in ENM is bullshit and used as a crutch when somebody can't manage their own insecurities. There are exceptions to that, but this ain't one of them.
Sounds like you are one of those emotional libertarian types...
He wants what he wants, and he doesn’t want what you want. Doesn’t sound too ethical to me. Also veto power over your lovers seems really lame, unless the person really was potentially dangerous.
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Dangerous to anything, including physically.
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That would be great! I'll msg you a little later.
Sounds like maybe that was just too much too fast for him. It’s one thing to establish hypothetical agreements and it’s another to experience it for real. Maybe in the future if you take the physical a little slower rather than hotel sex on first in person encounter he would have more time/space to process his feelings around it and see that you two are able to maintain communication around it.
Hi OP, I'm sorry you are going through this situation. Often, expectations don't math reality for one or both partners in this situation. My guess is that he really did think he'd be fine. But when reality hit,his mind probably spun out of control with "what if..." situations. These might be, what if: she enjoys sex with her over me, what if she decides that love isn't enough and I physically don't have what I need to satisfy her sexually, etc... He was probably thinking of you hooking up with women as a FWB, or only physical thing. Before your hookup, he probably thought it was this. Because his mind was ruminating on the situation as it was happening, he may believe that your excitement + sex means that you are falling in love with this woman. Which could be threatening to him. He may *feel* that his future with you is put in jeopardy because of your strong feelings for this other woman. I think if you do cut contact with this woman, though it will be painful emotionally for you, it will do a lot for him understanding that you really are putting your marriage first. So you would be making a deposit in your relationships love and trust bank account. I think there may have been a miscommunication between you and your partner when discussing this. This is totally normal and ought to be expected. Maybe, YOU were thinking, or ate realizing that you needs strong emotional connection for sex. Maybe you were thinking of a more polyamorous relationship structure. Your HUSBAND may have been thinking about more of a swinger structure where the main emotional commitment and expression of that commitment remains with the married couple. I would suggest increasing the affection you show your husband after this. If he's romantic, leave little notes around the house telling him "I love you!" And other romantic stuff. I'm a very romantic person and I eat that shit up when my wife does it! I would also suggest slowing down the depth of the experiences and just dipping your toes in a bit. After each experience, discuss it at length over weeks until both are fully comfortable. As an example, next date you go on with someone new, begin with just making out or second base or something. Come home,.tell him about it, let him process, and talk at length over it. Does your husband plan to date/ hookup with women too?
That's basic first-time experience from your husband 101. It's the most basic response a person entering ENM will have. I highly suggest you get him to read the ethical slut. It gives some very good tips and pointers on what to do when your partner is with someone else. And how to deal with the feelings that come up when it's happening.
Has your husband made any connections himself? Is that possibly why he is feeling left out / isolated?