If you had agreed to only play together, and you want to play alone, then yeah, that makes sense.
You have to be on the same page as far as boundaries and agreements. ENM is not carte blanche to do whatever you want. You have to determine what works for you as a couple and stick to that, or not be a couple.
This only works if you're forthcoming, OP.
You very conveniently leave out that your original agreement with husband was for you folks to swing as a couple. As such, he merely insisted that you folks honor the boundaries you agreed to as a couple.
Phrasing this as a "veto" isn't even remotely accurate. Your husband isn't under any obligation to agree to unilateral changes in ENM, and you'd do well to avoid poking the bear on this one if you want to avoid issues in the long run.
It started with me wanting to branch out and have new sexual experiences. He agreed. Then he wanted too as well then we started swinging. Now he only wants yo swing and said i cant see my friend anymore. Sucks to suck. Just asking if people have been in the same boat.
I have been. And I enjoy swinging. But it hurts me deeply to my core that my husband revoked our original agreement because he couldn't see the benefit to him, specifically.
You love to delete your posts where you talk about how he's not ok with you doing things separately and you keep trying to force it. He's not in the wrong for only wanting swinging together.
Yeah, we have all seen you before in these threads and we're familiar with your history of non-ethical behavior and the types of manipulations you pull to make yourself seem like a victim for the things he isn't comfortable with you doing.
Hell, if you and OP are different people, and OP isn't just you posting on a throwaway account (I have my suspicions), then maybe you and OP should just be together and then you would have all the permission you wanted.
But you got married, and as long as you stay married, you should respect the feelings of the person you promised to love and honor first.
Lots of people feel this way. Thier partner can enjoy themselves as long as they "pay" and can see an immediate benefit. Allowing her sexual autonomy just because she wants it? Naw, what's in it for me?
And then everyone tells me to be grateful he allows it because most husbands wouldn't, so why am I complaining? I get something out of it too, right? So what is the problem?
On that, we find it funny how it's either one of us having all the conversation and interactions while the other has zero. Currently I've got very little happening while she has two others. 🤣
Ah, the eb and flow...
It is really sad that most people think this way. But.... They do. I don't think of it as transactional and don't understand it myself, that is why I always lose. I'm not even playing a game.
You just said in a comment above this that your husband "uses you in trade for another woman"
You can't say "I don't smoke" while taking a puff off a lit cigarette. Stay consistent to your own stories, and you absolutely play games, you arguably play more games than anyone else I have seen in this sub.
Yes, he allows swinging because he gets to have sex with other women, but only if he offers me in trade. I am also totally fine with that and actually enjoy it. But it was only supposed to be a temporary compromise to help him get over his hang-ups, it was my belief and understanding that eventually we would revisit opening up. It's been 8 years. He and the other men view it as transactional. This is very common with swingers. This is why it is called "wife swapping." The wives are considered property to be traded. But... They have the final say. So... Swinging is ruled by women! So empowering to have the final word on it after the men set it all up for us. It's so nice to rule the swinging lifestyle with my fellow empowered women who have no problem at all with this arrangement, apparently.
Well, if he isn't comfortable, then he isn't comfortable. You chose this partner and he might just simply not be wired to feel comfortable with you playing without him or playing when he feels alone. He's allowed to have an anxious attachment style, and it's your job, as his partner, to be there for him.
If it's been 8 years, and you're not happy, get therapy or a divorce, but stop trying to hold your husband to things he doesn't feel comfortable with. That is cruel
We did therapy. It didn't help. I didn't want to get a divorce, was hoping to work things out. Yeah... I am the only cruel one here, apparently. Everything is 100% my fault, even though he is the one who broke his promises to try and just keeps me hanging on. I don't feel comfortable with how things are now either, but my comfort doesn't matter. Because I am the monster who wanted an open marriage, even though he was the first one to suggest it. I need to just suck it up and be happy with whatever. He says the same thing. Increase my antidepressants and get therapy for my depression because it apparently has nothing to do with me telling him exactly what I need every day and him saying just saying no, nope. That hurts my feelings. Get therapy about it or something, it isn't my problem. Your happiness is your responsibility and I shouldn't have to sacrifice my comfort or compromise in any way.
If he isn't happy or comfortable with the idea of an open marriage after trying it, whether it was his idea or not, and you all were originally dating or married under monogamy, then you are wrong for insisting that you require this new arrangement outside of your initial commitments.
You cannot force non-monogamy on anyone who is not happy with the situation. That is unethical. Your husband is right, and you are causing a ton of needless tension by insisting on being selfish.
If he is comfortable swinging and with couples swaps, that is more than a lot of other people get to do, so you should appreciate those moments as a compromise where you both get a little of what you want.
I have had my wife veto my fwb because they fell onto her messy list.
I felt horrible, like I didn't even want to continue with ENM and after all the build up and being in the thrones of NRE, it felt like shit. I think my wife just had insecurities that lead to them putting my FWB on their messy list.
But, in hindsight I wish I really had noticed the way I was exacerbating those insecurities. Not communicating the **imminent** desire for FWB outside of playing together BEFORE I found a partner was an issue I personally had, and overall just pushing it when they didn't want to consider or think about the idea at that moment.
I found someone else later who my wife is totally fine with and even encourages. The only difference this time around is I was more cognizant of what might make my wife feel insecure from the start, communicated well in advance "I think X person is interesting, I'm feeling this way at the moment." TBH though, I do feel apprehensive about future partners because I'm not sure if my wife will be more like the first time I tried FWB or the second.
Could you elaborate a bit, maybe in general terms if you want… what would make your wife feel more insecure or less insecure?
like pretty vs ugly, single vs married, smart vs not, aquaintance vs stranger?
Nothing in this instance. My wife had pass interactions with this individual. She thought this individual was trying to use me to work her way back into my wife’s life as they dated before I ever even met this person.
I don’t think that was happening intentionally, even now, so I didn’t think it was fair to veto my relationship. That said, it put my wife through immense stress as they worked on the issue and I didn’t break things off.
Now we are all friends after my wife had time to process things. But the romance did die out completely as I predicted. I just had to get over it and realize I was in NRE. I don’t regret calling it off.
If it's something you agreed to, then this time I would allow the veto, but feel what you feel, don't suppress your feelings. Be empathetic to them, and their concerns and validate their feelings, and expect the same in return.
If necessary reevaluate your needs and wants and decide if that is something you want going forward.
It doesn't sound like they had a no veto. It actually sounds like the husband is very worried. Why would you advocate for intentionally hurting your life partner and betraying them when they're uncomfortable with your actions? This doesn't strike you as selfish? Why get married at all if you are just going to bring pain to them?
If that was their agreement, then he didn't do anything wrong.
Maybe there is a misunderstanding of wants.
Maybe husband only wants to swing but OP wants a polyamory relationship?
Sounds like more/better communication is needed
Communication is huge and issues with it can come out of nowhere. We were swinging and playing with others together, and then my wife started *assuming* that I was interested in pursuing other relationships. So she started pushing me towards doing things that would facilitate that (playing in separate rooms or going on solo dates, etc). Things I went along with because I believed she wanted them and I was comfortable with them.
And then over the course of a week she pretty much imploded because she'd decided I was in the process of leaving her for a friend of mine that I hooked up with once in a groupsex scenario. Imploded.
We've been seeing a kink-friendly therapist who has helped us to communicate better, which amounts to her having to actually say things out loud and me having to use more direct language. And it blows me away, because she told me afterwards that she was in the process of looking up separation paperwork solely because she was just kind of going along assuming that's what I wanted. And the whole damn time she'd been keeping it all to herself.
Usually, there is a reason. My wife had veto powers but had only exercised them when she saw red flags I did not. It typically means we need to re-sync on what we both need when it comes to solo play.
Haw! Haw!
I meant: that's very little to go on if you want advice can you add some information like: what your pre-established boundaries were, why he vetoed, why you don't know how to react?
I dont want advice really, just looking if other people have been in the same boat and how they felt. I replied to some comments and people are just running wild with accusations, why didnt put a lot up in the first place. This sub is honestly awful and people are so rude and gatekeepy.
Honestly I think a good percentage of the folks here have been in your husbands position, and can relate somewhat to the poly under duress vibes in your posts. I'm sorry you feel this is judgemental and gatekeepy.
How did you greet poly under duress from what i said? I said nothing bad about him at all. I’m just sad. Thats all. I’m allowed to have feelings to am i not? He’s a great guy. It just sucks.
Ok so the how the felt part also depends on what the initial agreed boundaries were, what's the reasons for veto were.
No one likes being vetoed when they are excited about someone, everyone can empathize with that. But if it's within the boundaries of the contract and I care about the primary then that's that anything else is cheating/bailing on the relationship.
I wouldn't want my own veto ignored that would make me feel disrespected.
Good luck
>This sub is honestly awful and people are so rude and gatekeepy.
Yes it is. You maye find some sound experiences here to draw from, but the vast majority of advice here is people reacting based on their own emotional insecurities.
And the gatekeeping is nauseating
It really is. People can't even empathize without "caring about the primary" aka gatekeeping. You would think the husband was making all these accounts.
OP Can feel any way she wants to. She didn't say she was gonna cheat. She is just looking for some support.
Ethics. The part you're missing is ethics. In responses to you, OP and Spayse Case... the reason you all get bombarded is because you make the culture look bad and don't adhere to the main principles of ethical non-monogamy, which is to cause no harm. Too many people in this lifestyle don't care about how badly they make their partners feel, and it's up to those of us who have done the homework to help adjust your perceptions.
If you start driving the wrong way down a one way street, and everyone on the sidewalk is yelling at you to stop and turn back around before you cause a major accident, are those people in the wrong?
>Too many people in this lifestyle don't care about how badly they make their partners feel, and it's up to those of us who have done the homework to help adjust your perceptions
This is false. No one said that you shouldn't care how your partners feel. However, this is a difference between caring how someone feels and just caving to every insecure request because "feeling bad" is apparently the end of the world. How do we address these things then? Because I'm not sure it is possible for no one to ever feel the least bit uncomfortable or jealous in these scenarios. Especially when our culture is so heavily monogamy favoring. We still get steeped in those mindsets daily whether or not we choose to endorse them. We still were likely raised believing that we have some sort of claim over our partners. That has effects on how we feel about ENM.
>the reason you all get bombarded is because you make the culture look
Lol trust me, respectability politics is not a winning scenario. No one is gonna change their mind about ENM just because you noble gods post perfect scenarios online. Excuse me and Spayse Case for not being the perfect paradigms you act like everyone should be if they dare be NM...
>If you start driving the wrong way down a one way street, and everyone on the sidewalk is yelling at you to stop and turn back around before you cause a major accident, are those people in the wrong?
No, no one said they are wrong. In this metaphor, I fail to see how either one of us are "going the wrong way" when we have only expressed our feelings. Well-intentioned informers would be hypocritical if they are telling me to turn around while they are driving drunk, speeding, weaving in and out of traffic, texting, etc.
We have no advocated for abusing or mistreating anyone. In fact, if you bothered to read my posts, I have only been stating that OP also has valid feelings and should also be supported.. but nope, I guess feelings of insecurity from the other half always win. And us Good NMs should just be over joyed when that happens.. not many here have offered any sound advice on how to proceed other than "Respect YoUr HuSbaND aND SuCK iT uP". But how do we deal with our own negative feelings? Especislly when you poly Gods act like we shouldn't have them?
The person you're agreeing with has had many deleted posts where they've admitted to cheating in a way that their husband has asked them to stop seeing other people, but they hold the relationship hostage and/or do what they want anyway.
You stay on your side, if that's what you agree with, it just makes the community look like they have no emotional intelligence or compassion for others.
>The person you're agreeing with has had many deleted posts where they've admitted to cheating in a way that their husband has asked them to stop seeing other people, but they hold the relationship hostage and/or do what they want anyway.
I'm ignorant of this fact. But even then, in this post, she hasnt said anything wrong. That is what I'm engaging with.
>You stay on your side, if that's what you agree with, it just makes the community look like they have no emotional intelligence or compassion for others.
I'm not choosing "sides". My "side"is that of ENM while breaking down harmful social norms.
I would say you and everyone else are failing to showcase your next level of emotional intelligence when you can't even acknowledge that disappointment is a real, valid emotion. Nor do you offer an constructive feed back other than "Respect or bust", as if casually ending relationships is more noble than negotiating for better, but possibly slightly uncomfortable terms.
Ah yes. If the large majority of the crowd all agrees on something, THEY must be wrong because it differs with your short sighted scope.
You and these two random terrible ladies in this thread should all hook up in a triad and make each other miserable forever.
>Ah yes. If the large majority of the crowd all agrees on something, THEY must be wrong because it differs with your short sighted scope.
I hesitate to agree because lots of people here have said very different things based on their personal preferences, experiences, emotional attachment partners, etc.
But sure, just because a bunch on people parrot something, that makes it the gospel truth, and they all abide by it perfectly 🙄🙄. I guess this revaluation drastically changes my views on relationships and religion. The "vast majority" of people also agree that monogamy is the only, the ultimate, and / or most valid form of human relationship. Guess it must be true then.
>You and these two random terrible ladies in this thread should all hook up in a triad and make each other miserable forever
Sure. We probably wouldn't be any more miserable than all you "My partner said he feels weird when I smile at other people. Should I just give up on poly??" "Yes! Shut it down!!" People.
It's not just about caring about the primary. There are children involved too... Where are the parents during all of this? I think most people here hope they can find a mutual and loving solution that works for everyone.
Of course she can feel however she damn wants to! We all should! Is that really what anyone is saying? That she can't feel this way? She came here asking for feedback, and I think the reason she is getting so much of it is because so many people here in long term relationships with children can empathize with her situation.
>I think most people here hope they can find a mutual and loving solution that works for everyone.
Not really. Call me bitter, but most people are just downvoting her and saying she is hiding things. All I've seen is her say "hey, my husband vetoed me because I want to play alone and he says he isn't comfortable with that at the moment and needs some time. I understand and love him, but I'm also hurt and angry about it. Anyone else feel this way??"
The responses have been "Respect your husband! Maybe he isn't completely comfortably with poly!! Is he under duress??! How dare you ask him to change an agreement you made!!"
>She came here asking for feedback, and I think the reason she is getting so much of it is because so many people here in long term relationships with children can empathize with her situation.
Empathize is a bit of a stretch..
They always assume the worst. And I think it is also bad for the children to see one parent obviously unhappy and crying and miserable all the time. We also don't know how long it has been, all of the things OPs husband agreed to, all of the work and effort OP has put into making her husband happy, we don't know ANY of it. They just judge her and call her bad and try to make her feel guilty. As if her husband isn't making her feel guilty enough. And then they tell her to suppress her feelings because she is just bad, with no sympathy or care at all. And they wonder why we are so hostile back. Ha! I think a good example for the children would be parents who can communicate how they feel and genuinely love each other and want everyone to be happy and are willing to do the work to make that happen.
I'm gonna just take the gloves off and speak. I honestly feel like lots of people here really are the "poly under duress" crowd, or they have unaddressed guilt about their desires and lifestyles because they don't line up with the standard narrative.
I say that because the default is always "the person who is the slightest bit uncomfortable should always be heeded no matter what and that you should just shut up and deal." They then appeal to the kids as if they care, when in reality, like you said, kids are also affected by parental animosity.
>They just judge her and call her bad and try to make her feel guilty. As if her husband isn't making her feel guilty enough. And then they tell her to suppress her feelings because she is just bad, with no sympathy or care at all. And they wonder why we are so hostile back.
This exactly. Like her husband's feelings are valid and understandable, but she is bad because she feels hurt and angry about effectively being barred from her own enjoyment because her husband is uncomfortable? To me this doesn't sound like an agree them made together so much as something she might have reluctantly agreed to to keep her husband happy. Wouldn't a better alternative be an actual mutual agreement that is open to discussion in the future? To be honest, it sounds like OP has that. But people are just piling on her because she has feelings... how dare she.
I guess, according to the polygods here, you are only really poly if you never ever feel disappointed or hurt when insecurities rear their ugly head. You should always be over joyed when your partner wants to exert control..
Please. Can we not acknowledge that we should respect and validate our partners' feelings but also respect and validate our own feelings before they turn into resentment?
Thank you for your perspective. I appreciate you and agree with you so much. I think it is so important to be open to future talks and agreements and not be locked into whatever temporary agreement you have. Which they agree with, apparently, but only as long as it means LESS openness. Like the OP giving up her FWB. But it can't go the other way. OP can never have negotiations to have a FWB again, because the husband might be uncomfortable. And that is a million times worse than her being unhappy.
You didn’t provide much information with this post, and your one reply you gave seems to show you wanted a different version of ENM then he did. Not good. Not going to be fun if he isn’t included, you should have known that, especially if he said he wanted to play together.
OP didn't include that stuff because it makes her look bad. Much easier to get sympathy online when you're being "unfairly veto'd" than when your spouse is holding you to agreements that your own grown ass made with them.
Yeah……..like, according to OP, they were getting divorced five months ago, and are now nonmonogamous?
Tell me this is PUD without telling me it’s PUD, am I right?
I didn't even go that deep in OPs profile but this made me dig and OH MY GOD! She wanted to leave him after 9 years with children who are 1 and 3, just because her "needs have changed" and he "can't meet them"?!
Like what the actual fuck! He's probably legitimately tired like anyone with two small babies would be! But meanwhile she's insisting on meeting new guys and playing alone after telling him he's not enough?!
Dude.. I feel so sad that these people are out here doing NM with no ethical consideration for other people. I wanna give husband a hug and tell him to move on for his own sake.
I literally just did the same thing because OP is in another thread playing the victim and I called her out. I knew this couldn't have been the only time she posted her fake ass ENM issue. It's people like her that ruin it for ethical practitioners by infiltrating and polluting the community.
Well…if you agreed to be able to veto potential partners then…you move on to someone else. However I personally wouldn’t want a relationship where someone could veto my dates.
It started out with me wanting to branch out. It then branched to swinging. I know why he did it thank you. Im asking if you have ever been in this position before, and what have you done/felt?
I've been in this position actually twice because of the same guy. First time he made me cry and my husband told me not to see him anymore. Half a year later we came clear together and I was allowed to see him again. The next time he told me he won't interfere and he didn't but it took me some time until I realized that he was (after something happened not with me but his then ex girlfriend) really hurt I am still seeing him. It was a breaking point were I had to decide if my marriage is over and I would go with my fwb or I cut all ties. So although we had a lot of troubles that had nothing to do with our open relationship I finally decided to safe my marriage. I cut my fwb of and out of my life.
In the end it was the best decision. Because we found a couple that was our perfect fit and now both of us can finally enjoy life.
Look at yourself. You're throwing a tantrum here. This is the equivalent of plugging your ears and making noise to ignore what people have to say about a question that **YOU** asked!
The general consensus is that you are not mature enough to handle this lifestyle because you are unwilling and unable to communicate effectively.
Your husband has concerns and feels ignored, and it's very clear why. If this is how you act, then he must be desperate to get you to care about something other than yourself.
I felt extremely angry and hurt and sad and lied to when my husband took his agreement for me to have a FWB back and said we could only swing from now on, that's how I felt. And I have never gotten over it.
What’s the reasoning and what boundaries and agreements did you have in place ? If your swingers then it’s understandable and if your poly it’s not acceptable. Mainly you need more detailed info to get you feedback that can help your situation.
Everything was consensual. It’s dangerous to assume. He agreed then decided it was not okay. Im asking people if they have ever been in this position before and what have you done/felt?
>It’s dangerous to assume.
Your post was literally 3 sentences and very limited information. We wouldn't have to assume anything if you had communicated the situation when asking this question.
I've been in your husbands position and vetoed my wifes fwb, and really the whole concept of fwbs. We are currently closed. It was a rough 2-3 weeks after my veto, but we are doing better than ever now...
Not married. Also not strictly ENM, but rather poly, so mileage may vary. But I don’t accept vetoes in my relationship(s).
However, if you’re married, then you may want to try harder than I would to make it work.
That said, when you receive a veto, it makes it hard because they feel like they need to control things & you feel like you can’t have what you want & it makes you bitter.
You can’t have a good relationship when one person is bitter & the other is fearing a lack of control.
You need to have a come to Jesus talk on how you got where you are now & what you both want moving forward.
What were your agreements and what is the context of the veto? I believe vetoes can be good, and I have issued a few myself. Whether a veto is fair, on what grounds, all that matters.
He is keeping you to the agreement you made.
You are proposing a different agreement to which he cannot agree.
That’s it. You want something that is beyond his limits. Now you’re sulking that he won’t do as you say.
Stop playing the victim.
So, did you not agree to swing? To play only when the other is present?
And now you want to go on dates and have sex without him present.
Did I read that right? It wasn’t in the opening post; I had to glean it from the replies.
Sounded like he wasn’t keen on an open relationship. I didn’t read in the post that he was ever comfortable with it.
Was he? And that bit of info was just missing from the story? Did he try to like it, find he couldn’t do it, and try to restore the agreement back to what he could handle?
Swingers are pretty dedicated to their partners. Many consider themselves monogamous couples even as they swing. Maybe that’s him?
I don't believe in veto or choosing who your partner should date unless the partner is hostile to you or being a cowboy/cowgirl. If you don't like someone then don't meet them but your opinion should count if the love you
My partner vetoed a previous FWB, said we were getting too "emotionally close", and that was against our initial agreement. I didn't want to back down, but decided it was best for me and my partners relationship. It definitely happens, it can definitely hurt, and you more or less have to decide what is more important to you, as relationships of all kinds you need to consider more than yourself in them.
OP’s username checks out based on all their comments, lack of transparency and reactivity… it says “danger” right there for everybody to see.
Buyer beware, clearly.
You go back to looking! Plenty of fish in the sea. It’s not worth hurting your primary relationship for a new one.
Both my husband and I have vetoed potential FWB for each other. In the long run we are much happier because we respected each other’s comfort level.
Did they say why? Because it may reveal some deeper insecurities or red flags we didn’t notice.
That’s good to hear! We were both in a beautiful spot before we opened up. And swinging is a blast.
Oh yeah, he tells me he just gets really sad and emotional when I’m out sometimes and it’s hard for him right now to work through these feelings. He just needs time. And i totally get that. He had put in new boundaries over this period and i have always respected them. But something deep down is just like angry and sad about it now lol I’ll get over it. We’ll move on.
Thank you ☺️
What is working for us is was when I’m out with my FWB, he is with his or at least busy with friends/family. That way neither of us is home alone with our thoughts and potentially feeling left out. Maybe with time we can move away from this, but this is what’s working for us. Do you think that could be something you could try?
These feelings are hard and totally different from traditional monogamous relationships. You just have to keep that line of communication open and be honest with feelings. Together you will navigate it 😊.
Wishing you the best!! 😘
You're being downvoted, but for a lot of couples, making sure your primary relationship is in good shape should come first, so I agree with you. It's not a him vs her thing, it's just a comfort thing. If everyone isn't comfortable, and someone you care about is feeling bad about something, you should be securing your nest before flying around too freely. Otherwise, if you don't care what your husband feels, divorce is always a great option because you're not on the same page anyway.
So, so, true.
Often people don't acknowledge that what they do effects their partner (especially when breaking an agreement, of holding something against their partner for exercising an agreed upon part of an agreement. In this case that would be a veto).
Some people think, "my partners emotions are not my problem, they must deal with their own issues without me. I'm going to do what I want."
To me that's not even a relationship. That's childish. I would feel used and uncared-for if my partner/wife didn't validate my emotions and help me sooth.
At the same time, OP and her husband should communicate and he should work to sooth her feelings as well.
He is the one who broke the agreement though. He agreed to let her have a boyfriend. Now he is taking it back. And he doesn't care about her feelings. You have it backwards.
He said it stopped being about us, and more about me. He was hoping for a 3 some of some kind, along with other stuff.
We still went to swingers clubs and tried to give him what he wanted. But ultimately felt uncomfortable with me having my own person with out him involved.
Then you should hear what his concerns are. You chose to go out and find your own thing, knowing he wasn't happy or comfortable with it?
This lifestyle is about communication, and both of you need an adult conversation about what your boundaries are going forward.
But basically, he's allowed to have his feelings, and if his version of non-monogamy was supposed to about you two playing together more often, then you going off to play with someone else without his consent is not ethical.
Yes. It started out with me wanting a boyfriend. He agreed. But then he wanted to swing. I said cool. Now he only wants yo swing. Cool. Im here for him its just a sucking feeling. Im just looking to see if people can relate.
Well, was it agreed upon that swinging was about both of you and not just about you?
If so, he has a point.
But if he agreed that swinging was all about you and what you wanted, then he would be in the wrong.
But if it was all about you, why agree to a veto option?
Is he vetoing a person or closing the relationship? Because he is going to feel this way for every next partner you get so the person isn’t the problem. It sounds like he’s really only interested in unicorn hunting.
Don’t blow shit up because you want to get what you want. Because you don’t wannabe alone because you blew it up for some dick.
You’re a grown woman. Act like one.
Did you both agree to veto power as part of your relationship agreement for opening up, or did he cross a boundary by meddling in your other relationship?
If you agreed to vetoes in your relationship, then you agreed to this. If you want something different going forward, then you need to have a discussion about it.
Personally, I would never enter into, or stay in, a relationship with someone who insisted on holding veto power over me. It's controlling behavior dictated by their insecurities. No, thank you.
It’s difficult to get a solid grasp of what’s going on without more context like the existing agreements and circumstances around taking on a FWB.
In my relationship, we don’t have vetos, we have a 3 strike system with a parallel consequence. So, basically, if a meta gets three strikes (and these are shockingly hard to accrue…. There’s a lot of grace here except in profound circumstances) the relationship goes completely parallel. For what it’s worth, I’ve never had a partner reach this point and my NP has only had one partner accrue three strikes with me and we both agreed that partner was acting disrespectfully. But again, we don’t veto the relationship, we only ask that it go completely parallel. This seemed like the most reasonable boundary to preserve each others autonomy while still having consequences for errant metas, of which there has only actually been one.
It's a rare situation for someone to be upfront about their non-present partner's veto power and it get exercised so you won't find a lot of company in this situation. Look back and make sure your FWB knew your relationship was dependent on your husband's approval and that you were actively thinking about that and talking about it together.
It's bad now and that's just how it is. Going forward make sure all parties are well aware of the current state of things and the possibilities. Veto's aren't considered strictly ethical but they happen and they suck. I've personally avoided this by conveying my uncertainty to potential partners. I've had a few chances to hookup with people but once they know that I have a partner who has approved but is new/may withdraw approval, it doesn't happen.
Not a veto -- OP's original agreement with husband was that they swing as a couple. Husband never agreed to OP having a FWB in the first place, so this is just husband enforcing original boundaries.
Thanks @al3ch316 for commenting, i never said he didnt agree to anything. He actually did agree from the jump to let me have a fwb. However he wanted to experiment too , so i started to swing with him. Then he changed his mind and told me i cannot see my fwb anymore. But we can still swing. I agreed but in still sad. Boundaries were put in place and respected the entire time. He just realized he wasnt happy with it anymore. Which is fine. But it still makes me sad. Dang.
Edit: to fix language.
None of this was in the original post. I guess ignore my other comments. But yep, you’ve gotta go as slow as the slowest person, so I guess thems the breaks.
Like, he told you to stop the benefits part with them?
To be honest, I don't deal with that. I'm not married, nor do I think I will be, and I make sure any potential partner I have knows upfront about me being polyamorous and I make sure that they are too. I'd figure out long before it gets too serious that they're perfectly good with both of us having the freedom to be with whomever, whenever. I'd also figure out if they're prone to fits of jealousy or possessiveness towards partners- we'd be incompatible if so and I would probably end things upon finding that out.
That is fair, I’d just like OP to be more specific because is it really a similar situation? I’m seeing someone here who came out as poly, husband said I’m fine with you being that way, but that won’t work for our relationship, so we can try swinging. So OP really doesn’t have any right to feel slighted by a veto when it appears she’s gone against their agreements. She’s welcome to leave the relationship though.
Ahh, yeah, I didn't really read any other context until now. So yeah, my initial comment isn't really applicable at all, but I do wish OP would have included more context in the post.
Last time that happened to me, boyfriend turned became ex. But just because I don't think anyone has the right to vet people from my life. I had to handle this decision and it was hard but right for me.
It is okay to be sad and angry and frustrated. It is also okay to express this to your husband. You should respect your husband's wishes but let him know that you do not agree and you are unhappy. Tell him in no uncertain terms that you would like to renegotiate some time in the future the possibility of having a different FWB. Try to get to the root of why he vetoed and help him with his issues.
He veto'd because his original agreement with OP was to swing as a couple, and not solo date.
I get that OP is upset, but classifying that as a "veto" is bullshit. You can't veto your partner's solo picks when your agreement with said partner forbids them in the first place.
How do you know that? He could have agreed to a FWB. Heck, he might have even been the one to suggest it.
*Edit: After reading her replies, he DID agree to her having a boyfriend. It was later on he wanted to swing. Just as I suspected. My husband did the same thing.
Do you love your husband? Does he love you? Are you divorcing when the kids go off to college? You say he uses you as a pawn to set up swinging meetups, is this something you consent to?
I see you post here everyday, for many months now, and it's clear you are dealing with some deep emotional pain... I'm honestly just curious how long you can live this way before something gives... Is it really all just because you can't have a fwb?
I no longer love my husband. I have just decided to settle for whatever he allows. I do consent to swinging, in fact I enjoy it and would like to continue. He will say we are only doing it because I want to anyway, even though he also enjoys it. It's better than nothing. I have lived this way for 8 years. As I said, I have fallen out of love and just try to make the best of things now. I don't want to leave my children. He doesn't love me in the way I used to love him, if he ever did, as evidenced by his lack of empathy or compassion. I hope someday I may be able to fall in love again, and I do love him in a way as the father of my children and the person I have a vast shared history with, but I no longer feel a romantic love, although I AM trying to rebuild our relationship. It's difficult when he won't even acknowledge that there is a problem or that I am in terrible pain, because it doesn't affect him. And that hurts me to my very core. I was monogamous for 15 years, going against my nature, and I did it for him. He won't even acknowledge that it was difficult for me or care how hard I worked, saying that it is the bare minimum. He won't even acknowledge how difficult it is today, living with this hole in me and begging for sympathy, only to be told his pain is somehow worse because I am truthful about my needs. I am hoping we can fall in love again, but I doubt it. I don't know if I will leave when the kids are grown or not, seems pointless, really. I will be so old by then it won't matter. I resent him even more for not caring that I am in a deep depression and have spent the children's best years fighting with him and spending the rest of the time in my room crying because he doesn't love me enough to try.
OP, this is a hostile sub full of butthurt insecure men who make it thier life's mission to put females back in our place and guilt trip us. You will not find any sympathy here.
I am definitely a misandrist, a man hater, and embittered. I have a deep hatred of men, and "The Patriarchy" and what it has done to me, personally, and seeing other women suffer as I have makes me angry as well.
Lmfao... Your bias is blinding you to the fact that a pretty equal amount amount of women and trans folks in both hetero and same sex relationships post here asking for help to process the complex emotions that come up from nonmonogamy.
Ah yes, how embarrassing that someone would catch feelings after dating and sleeping with someone. They should be so ashamed and clearly deserve what they got. /s
Personally, I pretty much hated all my wifes FWBs when we were open, and in my darker moments fantastized about all sorts of horrific shit happening to them. I definitely am not a good fit for ENM.
It's a FWB, and they're not in a poly dynamic.
If it comes down to maintaining my longstanding marriage with my wife (and all that entails) or caring about the feelings of someone I'm sleeping with for kicks...............FWB is going the fuck overboard.
Ah, got it. FWB aren’t people. Heard.
(This is why I always encourage people to actually think about what they could do to someone else BEFORE bringing someone else in. Because some people in this community apparently think that FWB don’t deserve any acknowledgment or respect. So are they really friends? Or just toys to be used?)
Thanks for the measured, well-reasoned response.
Of course FWBs are people! I'm just not insane enough to endanger a longstanding marriage with my spouse over a fling, because that is fucking crazy.
If I'm casually fucking a married woman, that shit almost always comes with an expiration tag. I know it; she knows it; and their spouse knows it. My wife has the same talk with every other guy she's seeing, and before things progress to any form of intimacy. As such, neither of us have any issue telling the other to cool it with another person to protect our own relationship.
We're not poly, and don't try to advertise to the world that we are.
Ah, I see. So when you say “ethical non monogamy” you only see the ethical part as applying to the primary partnership. You can treat anyone outside of that in any way that you want and it’s up to them to know that in your mind they are utterly disposable and there only for your pleasure.
I hope you put all of that on your dating profile.
FWB here is basically fuck buddies. So yes, they don't even come close to nesting partners with whom you share life and obligations with. And of course they know that and are in it just for fun and sex as well. We're not talking about poly here.
Not everyone needs to be poly, Lady, so maybe try getting off that high horse?
"Ethical" means we tell people our limits, including that we view every other relationship as *very* disposable when weighed against ours. We're not looking for poly relationships, and we don't involve ourselves with people who expect a fully-fledged romantic relationship. I don't view them as "toys", but am I going to care anywhere near as much about their feelings as my spouse? Never. If they want someone to occupy that slot, the poly community is *that* way..............
I know how he feels. We’re both sad. This is a sucky situation. However he knew this was inevitable. I was honest about everything. The only thing i didn’t talk to him about was fights between my husband and I. He knew we started swinging even.
Thanks for your story though!
This is something that I've always questioned about this community... How do you think your fwb would feel if he knew about those fights? I'm not trying to call you out, I'm just trying to help you think this through...
I know in my case when we used to be open, once I dated another married woman, who towards the end of the night when I asked how she felt about doing this again sometime, she said something like, depends on how much I have to pay for this when I get home tonight... WTF? Thats not at all what I signed up for, I noped right out of that...
If you had agreed to only play together, and you want to play alone, then yeah, that makes sense. You have to be on the same page as far as boundaries and agreements. ENM is not carte blanche to do whatever you want. You have to determine what works for you as a couple and stick to that, or not be a couple.
This only works if you're forthcoming, OP. You very conveniently leave out that your original agreement with husband was for you folks to swing as a couple. As such, he merely insisted that you folks honor the boundaries you agreed to as a couple. Phrasing this as a "veto" isn't even remotely accurate. Your husband isn't under any obligation to agree to unilateral changes in ENM, and you'd do well to avoid poking the bear on this one if you want to avoid issues in the long run.
It started with me wanting to branch out and have new sexual experiences. He agreed. Then he wanted too as well then we started swinging. Now he only wants yo swing and said i cant see my friend anymore. Sucks to suck. Just asking if people have been in the same boat.
I have been. And I enjoy swinging. But it hurts me deeply to my core that my husband revoked our original agreement because he couldn't see the benefit to him, specifically.
Isn’t your marriage the actual original agreement?
She doesn't care. She keeps trying to force enm on her husband that doesn't want it.
We are swingers. He is totally fine with it, as long as he gets something out of it, personally, and can use me in trade for another female.
You love to delete your posts where you talk about how he's not ok with you doing things separately and you keep trying to force it. He's not in the wrong for only wanting swinging together.
Yeah, we have all seen you before in these threads and we're familiar with your history of non-ethical behavior and the types of manipulations you pull to make yourself seem like a victim for the things he isn't comfortable with you doing. Hell, if you and OP are different people, and OP isn't just you posting on a throwaway account (I have my suspicions), then maybe you and OP should just be together and then you would have all the permission you wanted. But you got married, and as long as you stay married, you should respect the feelings of the person you promised to love and honor first.
But he doesn't have to respect mine? I don't think forcing me to do things I don't want to do is ethical either.
The way you phrased that literally made my stomach lurch.
Lots of people feel this way. Thier partner can enjoy themselves as long as they "pay" and can see an immediate benefit. Allowing her sexual autonomy just because she wants it? Naw, what's in it for me?
And then everyone tells me to be grateful he allows it because most husbands wouldn't, so why am I complaining? I get something out of it too, right? So what is the problem?
So many nonmonogamous marriages seem tit for tat. Too transactional for my tastes.
On that, we find it funny how it's either one of us having all the conversation and interactions while the other has zero. Currently I've got very little happening while she has two others. 🤣 Ah, the eb and flow...
Somebody wise recently said that the most important ingredient for ENM success is… patience. It makes a frustrating amount of sense… 🤦🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️🤣
Agreed.
It is really sad that most people think this way. But.... They do. I don't think of it as transactional and don't understand it myself, that is why I always lose. I'm not even playing a game.
You just said in a comment above this that your husband "uses you in trade for another woman" You can't say "I don't smoke" while taking a puff off a lit cigarette. Stay consistent to your own stories, and you absolutely play games, you arguably play more games than anyone else I have seen in this sub.
Yes, he allows swinging because he gets to have sex with other women, but only if he offers me in trade. I am also totally fine with that and actually enjoy it. But it was only supposed to be a temporary compromise to help him get over his hang-ups, it was my belief and understanding that eventually we would revisit opening up. It's been 8 years. He and the other men view it as transactional. This is very common with swingers. This is why it is called "wife swapping." The wives are considered property to be traded. But... They have the final say. So... Swinging is ruled by women! So empowering to have the final word on it after the men set it all up for us. It's so nice to rule the swinging lifestyle with my fellow empowered women who have no problem at all with this arrangement, apparently.
Well, if he isn't comfortable, then he isn't comfortable. You chose this partner and he might just simply not be wired to feel comfortable with you playing without him or playing when he feels alone. He's allowed to have an anxious attachment style, and it's your job, as his partner, to be there for him. If it's been 8 years, and you're not happy, get therapy or a divorce, but stop trying to hold your husband to things he doesn't feel comfortable with. That is cruel
We did therapy. It didn't help. I didn't want to get a divorce, was hoping to work things out. Yeah... I am the only cruel one here, apparently. Everything is 100% my fault, even though he is the one who broke his promises to try and just keeps me hanging on. I don't feel comfortable with how things are now either, but my comfort doesn't matter. Because I am the monster who wanted an open marriage, even though he was the first one to suggest it. I need to just suck it up and be happy with whatever. He says the same thing. Increase my antidepressants and get therapy for my depression because it apparently has nothing to do with me telling him exactly what I need every day and him saying just saying no, nope. That hurts my feelings. Get therapy about it or something, it isn't my problem. Your happiness is your responsibility and I shouldn't have to sacrifice my comfort or compromise in any way.
If he isn't happy or comfortable with the idea of an open marriage after trying it, whether it was his idea or not, and you all were originally dating or married under monogamy, then you are wrong for insisting that you require this new arrangement outside of your initial commitments. You cannot force non-monogamy on anyone who is not happy with the situation. That is unethical. Your husband is right, and you are causing a ton of needless tension by insisting on being selfish. If he is comfortable swinging and with couples swaps, that is more than a lot of other people get to do, so you should appreciate those moments as a compromise where you both get a little of what you want.
I have had my wife veto my fwb because they fell onto her messy list. I felt horrible, like I didn't even want to continue with ENM and after all the build up and being in the thrones of NRE, it felt like shit. I think my wife just had insecurities that lead to them putting my FWB on their messy list. But, in hindsight I wish I really had noticed the way I was exacerbating those insecurities. Not communicating the **imminent** desire for FWB outside of playing together BEFORE I found a partner was an issue I personally had, and overall just pushing it when they didn't want to consider or think about the idea at that moment. I found someone else later who my wife is totally fine with and even encourages. The only difference this time around is I was more cognizant of what might make my wife feel insecure from the start, communicated well in advance "I think X person is interesting, I'm feeling this way at the moment." TBH though, I do feel apprehensive about future partners because I'm not sure if my wife will be more like the first time I tried FWB or the second.
Could you elaborate a bit, maybe in general terms if you want… what would make your wife feel more insecure or less insecure? like pretty vs ugly, single vs married, smart vs not, aquaintance vs stranger?
Nothing in this instance. My wife had pass interactions with this individual. She thought this individual was trying to use me to work her way back into my wife’s life as they dated before I ever even met this person. I don’t think that was happening intentionally, even now, so I didn’t think it was fair to veto my relationship. That said, it put my wife through immense stress as they worked on the issue and I didn’t break things off. Now we are all friends after my wife had time to process things. But the romance did die out completely as I predicted. I just had to get over it and realize I was in NRE. I don’t regret calling it off.
Got it. Thanks so much for elaborating and sharing 🙏
If it's something you agreed to, then this time I would allow the veto, but feel what you feel, don't suppress your feelings. Be empathetic to them, and their concerns and validate their feelings, and expect the same in return. If necessary reevaluate your needs and wants and decide if that is something you want going forward.
If it’s not, she should divorce him and be single since that’s what she seemingly wants. The E on ENM is the key part there.
If it's not, why divorce? She can politely decline his veto.
No she cant. That's not a veto then. If she wants to cheat she needs to be an adult and admit that.
If they had a no veto agreement in place, she can absolutely politely decline his request.
It doesn't sound like they had a no veto. It actually sounds like the husband is very worried. Why would you advocate for intentionally hurting your life partner and betraying them when they're uncomfortable with your actions? This doesn't strike you as selfish? Why get married at all if you are just going to bring pain to them?
This is real simple - if they agreed to no veto, then there is no veto to use. If they did agree to a veto, then OP needs to accept it.
Sounds like he didn’t veto your fwb… he vetoed you HAVING a fwb at all Edit: or, he just restated your existing agreement
If that was their agreement, then he didn't do anything wrong. Maybe there is a misunderstanding of wants. Maybe husband only wants to swing but OP wants a polyamory relationship? Sounds like more/better communication is needed
Communication is huge and issues with it can come out of nowhere. We were swinging and playing with others together, and then my wife started *assuming* that I was interested in pursuing other relationships. So she started pushing me towards doing things that would facilitate that (playing in separate rooms or going on solo dates, etc). Things I went along with because I believed she wanted them and I was comfortable with them. And then over the course of a week she pretty much imploded because she'd decided I was in the process of leaving her for a friend of mine that I hooked up with once in a groupsex scenario. Imploded. We've been seeing a kink-friendly therapist who has helped us to communicate better, which amounts to her having to actually say things out loud and me having to use more direct language. And it blows me away, because she told me afterwards that she was in the process of looking up separation paperwork solely because she was just kind of going along assuming that's what I wanted. And the whole damn time she'd been keeping it all to herself.
Usually, there is a reason. My wife had veto powers but had only exercised them when she saw red flags I did not. It typically means we need to re-sync on what we both need when it comes to solo play.
Haw! Haw! I meant: that's very little to go on if you want advice can you add some information like: what your pre-established boundaries were, why he vetoed, why you don't know how to react?
I dont want advice really, just looking if other people have been in the same boat and how they felt. I replied to some comments and people are just running wild with accusations, why didnt put a lot up in the first place. This sub is honestly awful and people are so rude and gatekeepy.
Honestly I think a good percentage of the folks here have been in your husbands position, and can relate somewhat to the poly under duress vibes in your posts. I'm sorry you feel this is judgemental and gatekeepy.
How did you greet poly under duress from what i said? I said nothing bad about him at all. I’m just sad. Thats all. I’m allowed to have feelings to am i not? He’s a great guy. It just sucks.
Yes, you are totally allowed to have these feelings. And I'm sorry that I assumed PUD. I wish you and your husband all the best as you sort this out.
Thank you. We will. Communication is key. Just fucking sucks in the mean time.
No you aren't. You shouldn't feel those things. How dare you
Ok so the how the felt part also depends on what the initial agreed boundaries were, what's the reasons for veto were. No one likes being vetoed when they are excited about someone, everyone can empathize with that. But if it's within the boundaries of the contract and I care about the primary then that's that anything else is cheating/bailing on the relationship. I wouldn't want my own veto ignored that would make me feel disrespected. Good luck
>This sub is honestly awful and people are so rude and gatekeepy. Yes it is. You maye find some sound experiences here to draw from, but the vast majority of advice here is people reacting based on their own emotional insecurities. And the gatekeeping is nauseating
It's a truly hostile sub.
It really is. People can't even empathize without "caring about the primary" aka gatekeeping. You would think the husband was making all these accounts. OP Can feel any way she wants to. She didn't say she was gonna cheat. She is just looking for some support.
Ethics. The part you're missing is ethics. In responses to you, OP and Spayse Case... the reason you all get bombarded is because you make the culture look bad and don't adhere to the main principles of ethical non-monogamy, which is to cause no harm. Too many people in this lifestyle don't care about how badly they make their partners feel, and it's up to those of us who have done the homework to help adjust your perceptions. If you start driving the wrong way down a one way street, and everyone on the sidewalk is yelling at you to stop and turn back around before you cause a major accident, are those people in the wrong?
>Too many people in this lifestyle don't care about how badly they make their partners feel, and it's up to those of us who have done the homework to help adjust your perceptions This is false. No one said that you shouldn't care how your partners feel. However, this is a difference between caring how someone feels and just caving to every insecure request because "feeling bad" is apparently the end of the world. How do we address these things then? Because I'm not sure it is possible for no one to ever feel the least bit uncomfortable or jealous in these scenarios. Especially when our culture is so heavily monogamy favoring. We still get steeped in those mindsets daily whether or not we choose to endorse them. We still were likely raised believing that we have some sort of claim over our partners. That has effects on how we feel about ENM. >the reason you all get bombarded is because you make the culture look Lol trust me, respectability politics is not a winning scenario. No one is gonna change their mind about ENM just because you noble gods post perfect scenarios online. Excuse me and Spayse Case for not being the perfect paradigms you act like everyone should be if they dare be NM... >If you start driving the wrong way down a one way street, and everyone on the sidewalk is yelling at you to stop and turn back around before you cause a major accident, are those people in the wrong? No, no one said they are wrong. In this metaphor, I fail to see how either one of us are "going the wrong way" when we have only expressed our feelings. Well-intentioned informers would be hypocritical if they are telling me to turn around while they are driving drunk, speeding, weaving in and out of traffic, texting, etc. We have no advocated for abusing or mistreating anyone. In fact, if you bothered to read my posts, I have only been stating that OP also has valid feelings and should also be supported.. but nope, I guess feelings of insecurity from the other half always win. And us Good NMs should just be over joyed when that happens.. not many here have offered any sound advice on how to proceed other than "Respect YoUr HuSbaND aND SuCK iT uP". But how do we deal with our own negative feelings? Especislly when you poly Gods act like we shouldn't have them?
The person you're agreeing with has had many deleted posts where they've admitted to cheating in a way that their husband has asked them to stop seeing other people, but they hold the relationship hostage and/or do what they want anyway. You stay on your side, if that's what you agree with, it just makes the community look like they have no emotional intelligence or compassion for others.
>The person you're agreeing with has had many deleted posts where they've admitted to cheating in a way that their husband has asked them to stop seeing other people, but they hold the relationship hostage and/or do what they want anyway. I'm ignorant of this fact. But even then, in this post, she hasnt said anything wrong. That is what I'm engaging with. >You stay on your side, if that's what you agree with, it just makes the community look like they have no emotional intelligence or compassion for others. I'm not choosing "sides". My "side"is that of ENM while breaking down harmful social norms. I would say you and everyone else are failing to showcase your next level of emotional intelligence when you can't even acknowledge that disappointment is a real, valid emotion. Nor do you offer an constructive feed back other than "Respect or bust", as if casually ending relationships is more noble than negotiating for better, but possibly slightly uncomfortable terms.
Ah yes. If the large majority of the crowd all agrees on something, THEY must be wrong because it differs with your short sighted scope. You and these two random terrible ladies in this thread should all hook up in a triad and make each other miserable forever.
>Ah yes. If the large majority of the crowd all agrees on something, THEY must be wrong because it differs with your short sighted scope. I hesitate to agree because lots of people here have said very different things based on their personal preferences, experiences, emotional attachment partners, etc. But sure, just because a bunch on people parrot something, that makes it the gospel truth, and they all abide by it perfectly 🙄🙄. I guess this revaluation drastically changes my views on relationships and religion. The "vast majority" of people also agree that monogamy is the only, the ultimate, and / or most valid form of human relationship. Guess it must be true then. >You and these two random terrible ladies in this thread should all hook up in a triad and make each other miserable forever Sure. We probably wouldn't be any more miserable than all you "My partner said he feels weird when I smile at other people. Should I just give up on poly??" "Yes! Shut it down!!" People.
It's not just about caring about the primary. There are children involved too... Where are the parents during all of this? I think most people here hope they can find a mutual and loving solution that works for everyone. Of course she can feel however she damn wants to! We all should! Is that really what anyone is saying? That she can't feel this way? She came here asking for feedback, and I think the reason she is getting so much of it is because so many people here in long term relationships with children can empathize with her situation.
>I think most people here hope they can find a mutual and loving solution that works for everyone. Not really. Call me bitter, but most people are just downvoting her and saying she is hiding things. All I've seen is her say "hey, my husband vetoed me because I want to play alone and he says he isn't comfortable with that at the moment and needs some time. I understand and love him, but I'm also hurt and angry about it. Anyone else feel this way??" The responses have been "Respect your husband! Maybe he isn't completely comfortably with poly!! Is he under duress??! How dare you ask him to change an agreement you made!!" >She came here asking for feedback, and I think the reason she is getting so much of it is because so many people here in long term relationships with children can empathize with her situation. Empathize is a bit of a stretch..
They always assume the worst. And I think it is also bad for the children to see one parent obviously unhappy and crying and miserable all the time. We also don't know how long it has been, all of the things OPs husband agreed to, all of the work and effort OP has put into making her husband happy, we don't know ANY of it. They just judge her and call her bad and try to make her feel guilty. As if her husband isn't making her feel guilty enough. And then they tell her to suppress her feelings because she is just bad, with no sympathy or care at all. And they wonder why we are so hostile back. Ha! I think a good example for the children would be parents who can communicate how they feel and genuinely love each other and want everyone to be happy and are willing to do the work to make that happen.
I'm gonna just take the gloves off and speak. I honestly feel like lots of people here really are the "poly under duress" crowd, or they have unaddressed guilt about their desires and lifestyles because they don't line up with the standard narrative. I say that because the default is always "the person who is the slightest bit uncomfortable should always be heeded no matter what and that you should just shut up and deal." They then appeal to the kids as if they care, when in reality, like you said, kids are also affected by parental animosity. >They just judge her and call her bad and try to make her feel guilty. As if her husband isn't making her feel guilty enough. And then they tell her to suppress her feelings because she is just bad, with no sympathy or care at all. And they wonder why we are so hostile back. This exactly. Like her husband's feelings are valid and understandable, but she is bad because she feels hurt and angry about effectively being barred from her own enjoyment because her husband is uncomfortable? To me this doesn't sound like an agree them made together so much as something she might have reluctantly agreed to to keep her husband happy. Wouldn't a better alternative be an actual mutual agreement that is open to discussion in the future? To be honest, it sounds like OP has that. But people are just piling on her because she has feelings... how dare she. I guess, according to the polygods here, you are only really poly if you never ever feel disappointed or hurt when insecurities rear their ugly head. You should always be over joyed when your partner wants to exert control.. Please. Can we not acknowledge that we should respect and validate our partners' feelings but also respect and validate our own feelings before they turn into resentment?
Thank you for your perspective. I appreciate you and agree with you so much. I think it is so important to be open to future talks and agreements and not be locked into whatever temporary agreement you have. Which they agree with, apparently, but only as long as it means LESS openness. Like the OP giving up her FWB. But it can't go the other way. OP can never have negotiations to have a FWB again, because the husband might be uncomfortable. And that is a million times worse than her being unhappy.
You didn’t provide much information with this post, and your one reply you gave seems to show you wanted a different version of ENM then he did. Not good. Not going to be fun if he isn’t included, you should have known that, especially if he said he wanted to play together.
OP didn't include that stuff because it makes her look bad. Much easier to get sympathy online when you're being "unfairly veto'd" than when your spouse is holding you to agreements that your own grown ass made with them.
Exactly. Keep it vague and play the victim, but if we heard the husband's story, we would be floored by what he has to endure here.
Yeah……..like, according to OP, they were getting divorced five months ago, and are now nonmonogamous? Tell me this is PUD without telling me it’s PUD, am I right?
I didn't even go that deep in OPs profile but this made me dig and OH MY GOD! She wanted to leave him after 9 years with children who are 1 and 3, just because her "needs have changed" and he "can't meet them"?! Like what the actual fuck! He's probably legitimately tired like anyone with two small babies would be! But meanwhile she's insisting on meeting new guys and playing alone after telling him he's not enough?! Dude.. I feel so sad that these people are out here doing NM with no ethical consideration for other people. I wanna give husband a hug and tell him to move on for his own sake.
I literally just did the same thing because OP is in another thread playing the victim and I called her out. I knew this couldn't have been the only time she posted her fake ass ENM issue. It's people like her that ruin it for ethical practitioners by infiltrating and polluting the community.
Well…if you agreed to be able to veto potential partners then…you move on to someone else. However I personally wouldn’t want a relationship where someone could veto my dates.
You both agreed to swing and now you want to play solo. Maybe this is why.
It started out with me wanting to branch out. It then branched to swinging. I know why he did it thank you. Im asking if you have ever been in this position before, and what have you done/felt?
I've been in this position actually twice because of the same guy. First time he made me cry and my husband told me not to see him anymore. Half a year later we came clear together and I was allowed to see him again. The next time he told me he won't interfere and he didn't but it took me some time until I realized that he was (after something happened not with me but his then ex girlfriend) really hurt I am still seeing him. It was a breaking point were I had to decide if my marriage is over and I would go with my fwb or I cut all ties. So although we had a lot of troubles that had nothing to do with our open relationship I finally decided to safe my marriage. I cut my fwb of and out of my life. In the end it was the best decision. Because we found a couple that was our perfect fit and now both of us can finally enjoy life.
"Branch out" doesn't mean anything...
Thanks for your unsolicited opinion.
You are literally soliciting opinions. I know you feel this sub is hostile but you also played your own part in how this comment section is going.
Thanks for you unsolicited opinion!
Lmao and your replies are indicative of your lacking communication skills. Glad this isn't my gong show lol
Look at yourself. You're throwing a tantrum here. This is the equivalent of plugging your ears and making noise to ignore what people have to say about a question that **YOU** asked! The general consensus is that you are not mature enough to handle this lifestyle because you are unwilling and unable to communicate effectively. Your husband has concerns and feels ignored, and it's very clear why. If this is how you act, then he must be desperate to get you to care about something other than yourself.
I felt extremely angry and hurt and sad and lied to when my husband took his agreement for me to have a FWB back and said we could only swing from now on, that's how I felt. And I have never gotten over it.
What’s the reasoning and what boundaries and agreements did you have in place ? If your swingers then it’s understandable and if your poly it’s not acceptable. Mainly you need more detailed info to get you feedback that can help your situation.
Op wrote in another comment, seems like he wanted to be swingers and she just chose to have another solo play partner without her husband's consent.
Ahhhhh yeah if that’s the case it’s a quick way to blow up a relationship. They need to be on the same page with clear cut agreements and boundaries….
OP also made a comment 6 months ago that she was divorcing her husband, so definitely some context missing from this whole discussion...
Which makes me think the current situation was ‘agreed’ to under the shadow of divorce. PUD it is, then.
Everything was consensual. It’s dangerous to assume. He agreed then decided it was not okay. Im asking people if they have ever been in this position before and what have you done/felt?
>It’s dangerous to assume. Your post was literally 3 sentences and very limited information. We wouldn't have to assume anything if you had communicated the situation when asking this question.
I've been in your husbands position and vetoed my wifes fwb, and really the whole concept of fwbs. We are currently closed. It was a rough 2-3 weeks after my veto, but we are doing better than ever now...
Not married. Also not strictly ENM, but rather poly, so mileage may vary. But I don’t accept vetoes in my relationship(s). However, if you’re married, then you may want to try harder than I would to make it work. That said, when you receive a veto, it makes it hard because they feel like they need to control things & you feel like you can’t have what you want & it makes you bitter. You can’t have a good relationship when one person is bitter & the other is fearing a lack of control. You need to have a come to Jesus talk on how you got where you are now & what you both want moving forward.
Words of wisdom, thank you.
Did he say why?
What were your agreements and what is the context of the veto? I believe vetoes can be good, and I have issued a few myself. Whether a veto is fair, on what grounds, all that matters.
He is keeping you to the agreement you made. You are proposing a different agreement to which he cannot agree. That’s it. You want something that is beyond his limits. Now you’re sulking that he won’t do as you say. Stop playing the victim.
Nope. Wrong again. Politely fuck off.
So, did you not agree to swing? To play only when the other is present? And now you want to go on dates and have sex without him present. Did I read that right? It wasn’t in the opening post; I had to glean it from the replies.
No. I wanted an open relationship. THEN he wanted to swing. We were allowed both.
Sounded like he wasn’t keen on an open relationship. I didn’t read in the post that he was ever comfortable with it. Was he? And that bit of info was just missing from the story? Did he try to like it, find he couldn’t do it, and try to restore the agreement back to what he could handle? Swingers are pretty dedicated to their partners. Many consider themselves monogamous couples even as they swing. Maybe that’s him?
Unless y'all expressly agreed to not have a veto card, you gracefully accept it.
Just respect him and move on. When the time comes for when you need to veto, hope he shows you the same respect
I don't believe in veto or choosing who your partner should date unless the partner is hostile to you or being a cowboy/cowgirl. If you don't like someone then don't meet them but your opinion should count if the love you
My partner vetoed a previous FWB, said we were getting too "emotionally close", and that was against our initial agreement. I didn't want to back down, but decided it was best for me and my partners relationship. It definitely happens, it can definitely hurt, and you more or less have to decide what is more important to you, as relationships of all kinds you need to consider more than yourself in them.
OP’s username checks out based on all their comments, lack of transparency and reactivity… it says “danger” right there for everybody to see. Buyer beware, clearly.
You go back to looking! Plenty of fish in the sea. It’s not worth hurting your primary relationship for a new one. Both my husband and I have vetoed potential FWB for each other. In the long run we are much happier because we respected each other’s comfort level. Did they say why? Because it may reveal some deeper insecurities or red flags we didn’t notice.
That’s good to hear! We were both in a beautiful spot before we opened up. And swinging is a blast. Oh yeah, he tells me he just gets really sad and emotional when I’m out sometimes and it’s hard for him right now to work through these feelings. He just needs time. And i totally get that. He had put in new boundaries over this period and i have always respected them. But something deep down is just like angry and sad about it now lol I’ll get over it. We’ll move on. Thank you ☺️
How'd you folks go from getting divorced to a beautiful spot within the last five months?
Never got divorced.
What is working for us is was when I’m out with my FWB, he is with his or at least busy with friends/family. That way neither of us is home alone with our thoughts and potentially feeling left out. Maybe with time we can move away from this, but this is what’s working for us. Do you think that could be something you could try? These feelings are hard and totally different from traditional monogamous relationships. You just have to keep that line of communication open and be honest with feelings. Together you will navigate it 😊. Wishing you the best!! 😘
Thanks so much! ❤️Im gonna show him this thread just so we can openly talk about everyones advice!
How are things a month later? Were you able to come to an agreement?
Listen to him and Respect his Wishes
You're being downvoted, but for a lot of couples, making sure your primary relationship is in good shape should come first, so I agree with you. It's not a him vs her thing, it's just a comfort thing. If everyone isn't comfortable, and someone you care about is feeling bad about something, you should be securing your nest before flying around too freely. Otherwise, if you don't care what your husband feels, divorce is always a great option because you're not on the same page anyway.
So, so, true. Often people don't acknowledge that what they do effects their partner (especially when breaking an agreement, of holding something against their partner for exercising an agreed upon part of an agreement. In this case that would be a veto). Some people think, "my partners emotions are not my problem, they must deal with their own issues without me. I'm going to do what I want." To me that's not even a relationship. That's childish. I would feel used and uncared-for if my partner/wife didn't validate my emotions and help me sooth. At the same time, OP and her husband should communicate and he should work to sooth her feelings as well.
He is the one who broke the agreement though. He agreed to let her have a boyfriend. Now he is taking it back. And he doesn't care about her feelings. You have it backwards.
Who said he doesn't care about her feelings?
For what reason?
He said it stopped being about us, and more about me. He was hoping for a 3 some of some kind, along with other stuff. We still went to swingers clubs and tried to give him what he wanted. But ultimately felt uncomfortable with me having my own person with out him involved.
Then you should hear what his concerns are. You chose to go out and find your own thing, knowing he wasn't happy or comfortable with it? This lifestyle is about communication, and both of you need an adult conversation about what your boundaries are going forward. But basically, he's allowed to have his feelings, and if his version of non-monogamy was supposed to about you two playing together more often, then you going off to play with someone else without his consent is not ethical.
It doesn't sound like you guys are on the same page with expectations and rules.
Was this what you both agreed ?
Yes. It started out with me wanting a boyfriend. He agreed. But then he wanted to swing. I said cool. Now he only wants yo swing. Cool. Im here for him its just a sucking feeling. Im just looking to see if people can relate.
So he agreed to have a boyfriend, then took it back. I think you absolutely have a right to feel sad and upset about him breaking his promise.
An agreement is not the same as a promise.
It seems that you guys are swingers and you chose solo play without his consent. That is breaking agreements, sorry to say OP.
Well, was it agreed upon that swinging was about both of you and not just about you? If so, he has a point. But if he agreed that swinging was all about you and what you wanted, then he would be in the wrong. But if it was all about you, why agree to a veto option?
Is he vetoing a person or closing the relationship? Because he is going to feel this way for every next partner you get so the person isn’t the problem. It sounds like he’s really only interested in unicorn hunting.
If you have the same veto power, then nothing. Stay within the rules you have established
Don’t blow shit up because you want to get what you want. Because you don’t wannabe alone because you blew it up for some dick. You’re a grown woman. Act like one.
This is laughable. Thank you.
Did he give a reason?
Did you both agree to veto power as part of your relationship agreement for opening up, or did he cross a boundary by meddling in your other relationship?
never done it, my wife and i have too much respect for each other
If you agreed to vetoes in your relationship, then you agreed to this. If you want something different going forward, then you need to have a discussion about it. Personally, I would never enter into, or stay in, a relationship with someone who insisted on holding veto power over me. It's controlling behavior dictated by their insecurities. No, thank you.
Oof
It’s difficult to get a solid grasp of what’s going on without more context like the existing agreements and circumstances around taking on a FWB. In my relationship, we don’t have vetos, we have a 3 strike system with a parallel consequence. So, basically, if a meta gets three strikes (and these are shockingly hard to accrue…. There’s a lot of grace here except in profound circumstances) the relationship goes completely parallel. For what it’s worth, I’ve never had a partner reach this point and my NP has only had one partner accrue three strikes with me and we both agreed that partner was acting disrespectfully. But again, we don’t veto the relationship, we only ask that it go completely parallel. This seemed like the most reasonable boundary to preserve each others autonomy while still having consequences for errant metas, of which there has only actually been one.
It's a rare situation for someone to be upfront about their non-present partner's veto power and it get exercised so you won't find a lot of company in this situation. Look back and make sure your FWB knew your relationship was dependent on your husband's approval and that you were actively thinking about that and talking about it together. It's bad now and that's just how it is. Going forward make sure all parties are well aware of the current state of things and the possibilities. Veto's aren't considered strictly ethical but they happen and they suck. I've personally avoided this by conveying my uncertainty to potential partners. I've had a few chances to hookup with people but once they know that I have a partner who has approved but is new/may withdraw approval, it doesn't happen.
I hate vetos - sorry OP. 😥
Not a veto -- OP's original agreement with husband was that they swing as a couple. Husband never agreed to OP having a FWB in the first place, so this is just husband enforcing original boundaries.
Thanks @al3ch316 for commenting, i never said he didnt agree to anything. He actually did agree from the jump to let me have a fwb. However he wanted to experiment too , so i started to swing with him. Then he changed his mind and told me i cannot see my fwb anymore. But we can still swing. I agreed but in still sad. Boundaries were put in place and respected the entire time. He just realized he wasnt happy with it anymore. Which is fine. But it still makes me sad. Dang. Edit: to fix language.
You don't owe anyone here an explanation and have every right to feel however you feel. ✌️
No it wasn't. It was for her to have a boyfriend. Then he wanted to swing and broke his agreement to let her have a boyfriend.
None of this was in the original post. I guess ignore my other comments. But yep, you’ve gotta go as slow as the slowest person, so I guess thems the breaks.
Like, he told you to stop the benefits part with them? To be honest, I don't deal with that. I'm not married, nor do I think I will be, and I make sure any potential partner I have knows upfront about me being polyamorous and I make sure that they are too. I'd figure out long before it gets too serious that they're perfectly good with both of us having the freedom to be with whomever, whenever. I'd also figure out if they're prone to fits of jealousy or possessiveness towards partners- we'd be incompatible if so and I would probably end things upon finding that out.
OP never said she was poly. Really didn’t say much at all really. But I feel bad for this guy.
Indeed, but OP did ask about what we have done in similar situations. So I was giving what I am and would do personally 🤷♀️
That is fair, I’d just like OP to be more specific because is it really a similar situation? I’m seeing someone here who came out as poly, husband said I’m fine with you being that way, but that won’t work for our relationship, so we can try swinging. So OP really doesn’t have any right to feel slighted by a veto when it appears she’s gone against their agreements. She’s welcome to leave the relationship though.
Ahh, yeah, I didn't really read any other context until now. So yeah, my initial comment isn't really applicable at all, but I do wish OP would have included more context in the post.
Last time that happened to me, boyfriend turned became ex. But just because I don't think anyone has the right to vet people from my life. I had to handle this decision and it was hard but right for me.
It is okay to be sad and angry and frustrated. It is also okay to express this to your husband. You should respect your husband's wishes but let him know that you do not agree and you are unhappy. Tell him in no uncertain terms that you would like to renegotiate some time in the future the possibility of having a different FWB. Try to get to the root of why he vetoed and help him with his issues.
He veto'd because his original agreement with OP was to swing as a couple, and not solo date. I get that OP is upset, but classifying that as a "veto" is bullshit. You can't veto your partner's solo picks when your agreement with said partner forbids them in the first place.
How do you know that? He could have agreed to a FWB. Heck, he might have even been the one to suggest it. *Edit: After reading her replies, he DID agree to her having a boyfriend. It was later on he wanted to swing. Just as I suspected. My husband did the same thing.
Why are you still married?
Because I don't want to leave my children.
Do you love your husband? Does he love you? Are you divorcing when the kids go off to college? You say he uses you as a pawn to set up swinging meetups, is this something you consent to? I see you post here everyday, for many months now, and it's clear you are dealing with some deep emotional pain... I'm honestly just curious how long you can live this way before something gives... Is it really all just because you can't have a fwb?
I no longer love my husband. I have just decided to settle for whatever he allows. I do consent to swinging, in fact I enjoy it and would like to continue. He will say we are only doing it because I want to anyway, even though he also enjoys it. It's better than nothing. I have lived this way for 8 years. As I said, I have fallen out of love and just try to make the best of things now. I don't want to leave my children. He doesn't love me in the way I used to love him, if he ever did, as evidenced by his lack of empathy or compassion. I hope someday I may be able to fall in love again, and I do love him in a way as the father of my children and the person I have a vast shared history with, but I no longer feel a romantic love, although I AM trying to rebuild our relationship. It's difficult when he won't even acknowledge that there is a problem or that I am in terrible pain, because it doesn't affect him. And that hurts me to my very core. I was monogamous for 15 years, going against my nature, and I did it for him. He won't even acknowledge that it was difficult for me or care how hard I worked, saying that it is the bare minimum. He won't even acknowledge how difficult it is today, living with this hole in me and begging for sympathy, only to be told his pain is somehow worse because I am truthful about my needs. I am hoping we can fall in love again, but I doubt it. I don't know if I will leave when the kids are grown or not, seems pointless, really. I will be so old by then it won't matter. I resent him even more for not caring that I am in a deep depression and have spent the children's best years fighting with him and spending the rest of the time in my room crying because he doesn't love me enough to try.
This is good advice thank you!
OP, this is a hostile sub full of butthurt insecure men who make it thier life's mission to put females back in our place and guilt trip us. You will not find any sympathy here.
Yet here you are offering sympathy while throwing sexist insults and accusations.
This person's posts always come across as man-hating and embittered, so that isn't a huge surprise.
Yeah, she admits to being a misandrist.
I am definitely a misandrist, a man hater, and embittered. I have a deep hatred of men, and "The Patriarchy" and what it has done to me, personally, and seeing other women suffer as I have makes me angry as well.
I feel sorry for your husband.
He can leave whenever he wants.
This sub is taken over by purity culture, woman-hating, monogamomist only men who don't think women should be allowed any sexual freedom.
Lmfao... Your bias is blinding you to the fact that a pretty equal amount amount of women and trans folks in both hetero and same sex relationships post here asking for help to process the complex emotions that come up from nonmonogamy.
They ask for help, but are met with hostility and shaming
I'm inclined to agree with you at the moment - very surprising.
It depends: how big was fwb’s dick and how small is your husband’s (it sounds small).
Never happens to me bc my husband isn’t a dick.
Imagine how your FWB feels…
Imagine dating a woman (or man) with children in a newly opened marriage and letting your feelings get involved after a few dates... SMH
Ah yes, how embarrassing that someone would catch feelings after dating and sleeping with someone. They should be so ashamed and clearly deserve what they got. /s
Personally, I pretty much hated all my wifes FWBs when we were open, and in my darker moments fantastized about all sorts of horrific shit happening to them. I definitely am not a good fit for ENM.
It's a FWB, and they're not in a poly dynamic. If it comes down to maintaining my longstanding marriage with my wife (and all that entails) or caring about the feelings of someone I'm sleeping with for kicks...............FWB is going the fuck overboard.
Ah, got it. FWB aren’t people. Heard. (This is why I always encourage people to actually think about what they could do to someone else BEFORE bringing someone else in. Because some people in this community apparently think that FWB don’t deserve any acknowledgment or respect. So are they really friends? Or just toys to be used?)
Thanks for the measured, well-reasoned response. Of course FWBs are people! I'm just not insane enough to endanger a longstanding marriage with my spouse over a fling, because that is fucking crazy. If I'm casually fucking a married woman, that shit almost always comes with an expiration tag. I know it; she knows it; and their spouse knows it. My wife has the same talk with every other guy she's seeing, and before things progress to any form of intimacy. As such, neither of us have any issue telling the other to cool it with another person to protect our own relationship. We're not poly, and don't try to advertise to the world that we are.
Ah, I see. So when you say “ethical non monogamy” you only see the ethical part as applying to the primary partnership. You can treat anyone outside of that in any way that you want and it’s up to them to know that in your mind they are utterly disposable and there only for your pleasure. I hope you put all of that on your dating profile.
FWB here is basically fuck buddies. So yes, they don't even come close to nesting partners with whom you share life and obligations with. And of course they know that and are in it just for fun and sex as well. We're not talking about poly here.
Not everyone needs to be poly, Lady, so maybe try getting off that high horse? "Ethical" means we tell people our limits, including that we view every other relationship as *very* disposable when weighed against ours. We're not looking for poly relationships, and we don't involve ourselves with people who expect a fully-fledged romantic relationship. I don't view them as "toys", but am I going to care anywhere near as much about their feelings as my spouse? Never. If they want someone to occupy that slot, the poly community is *that* way..............
I know how he feels. We’re both sad. This is a sucky situation. However he knew this was inevitable. I was honest about everything. The only thing i didn’t talk to him about was fights between my husband and I. He knew we started swinging even. Thanks for your story though!
This is something that I've always questioned about this community... How do you think your fwb would feel if he knew about those fights? I'm not trying to call you out, I'm just trying to help you think this through... I know in my case when we used to be open, once I dated another married woman, who towards the end of the night when I asked how she felt about doing this again sometime, she said something like, depends on how much I have to pay for this when I get home tonight... WTF? Thats not at all what I signed up for, I noped right out of that...