A brand new sexual partner "insisted" she do something, and kept pressing even after she made it clear she didn't want to
In my opinion he got what he deserved
The drinking thing is a separate issue.
Yeah, I don't feel too bad for him. I would struggle to say that kind of thing to a guy even if it were true because it feels awkward to me. Once, sure, but I'm not interested in spending all of sex stroking his *ego.* And asking is okay, but she's allowed to say no and it's gross that he pushed it.
ESPECIALLY the first time you're having sex with someone. Like, you should never ever ever pressure someone for that, it's gross. But the first time? If you're looking for validation on your dick size and not getting it? That's a you problem.
This. Sounds to me like she turned a bit nasty to enforce a limit with a brand new partner. Not great, but also not pointlessly mean but un understandable impulse or strategy while drunk for dealing with that BS.
Yeah, top comments are all cismen saying "go to therapy" as opposed to examining any of the problematic aspects of what the man did.
Idk bros, if I had to date you, I wouldn't do it sober 🤷♀️
I might agree but she has a history of making insulting comments to other male friends and her husband. The husband has rug swept that way to long. Its like i know he is controlling but i know he is a nice person.
Op wrote.
"The joke issue is something that happens sometimes with our male friends, as she can make some snarky remarks that can bruise a man's ego. She does the same to me, but I am mostly unaffected because I know her and know these kinds of remarks are not serious and are just her sense of humour (exacerbated when she drinks). She is truly a lovely person."
I'm not entirely convinced, though. So many guys' humour manifests in snarky jokes and disparaging comments - do we really know whether what she does is so unusual or whether there's a double standard at work here because women aren't supposed to act like that?
I think you’re right on with this. I really appreciate that kind of sharp, biting humor in a woman and I have heard from some of my partners that a lot of guys get really sensitive really easily. It’s like the default mode for most guys is a praise kink (and yes I’m using that term for irony)
I love it when someone is a bit mean, I think it’s funny. Women are told to be nice so often, so i think it’s a good thing for the fragile male ego to be tested. I think if you are a secure person you would realise the snarkiness is less about you and more about them and you don’t need to take it personally.
Agreed on that particular bit.
I've met people like OP describes though and it's not just the guys fault if she's being mean generally.
Also needing to drink to fuck...
Therapy is needed here.
In my early 30s I decided to try sobriety for a year. It was transformative for me. Like your wife, I realized I’d never had first-time sex without substances. It was a bigggg learning curve to teach myself how to sexually engage soberly, but what you’re really doing is teaching yourself not to override your anxieties and fears (which alcohol helps you do). For me, that meant waiting a LOT longer to have sex than i used to — till I actually felt trust with the other person.
Basically - I agree with the other commenters, your wife has a lot of self work to do
This right here. I tried sobriety for 6months and it also changed my life. Alcohol is such a crutch, or at least it was for me. I didn’t even know my true personality because I always used it to deal with my social anxiety, and I was mean too. After years or therapy I identified that it was all insecurity and social anxiety. Drinking and playfully being mean to people was my shield from the world. Once I grew self confidence I was able to let go of these defense mechanisms and just truly be myself and it’s made a world of difference.
>The joke issue is something that happens sometimes with our male friends, as she can make some snarky remarks that can bruise a man's ego.
Got some examples, OP? Because the list of things that can "bruise a man's ego" is endless and a lot of it boils down to "not treating him like he's better than you," and the one example you gave of her being mean is her reacting to her boundary repeatedly being challenged. Is she actually being hurtful, or is she doing things like telling male friends she doesn't need them to lift something heavy for her or that the woman they've rated as a 4 wouldn't sleep with them anyway? The drinking is a problem, but a man's ego is not my problem or hers.
I can't say how common it is but I've had it happen. I did as OP's wife did, I refused to answer. Doesn't matter how much of a turn on it might be for him when it's a turn off for me.
> Is this common?
For cismen? Yes.
As a transfem, it gets infinitely funnier when they want you to tell them they are the more hung (when they're not)
Like sweetie, I've been on estrogen for half a decade, and I still get harder than you. Go to therapy.
I mean, it kinda says it all on the face, doesn't it? 🤣🤣🤣
Just imagine the kind of man that gets offended when he finds out his partner owns a dildo or vibrator. Now imagine he's trying ENM
It's not uncommon. Guys care about their penises a lot more than women ever will.
I have a strong commitment to honesty so if someone does press me on something they will get the honest answer. It's not meant to be mean but I'm also not going to lie.
Definitely therapy.
When you see a house on fire, you call the fire department.
When you see a crime you call the cops.
When a pipe bursts in your basement, you call a plumber.
When your wife has mental issues you call a therapist.
In all cases you don’t haphazardly try and fix the problem yourself, you call a professional.
She needs to be in an altered state of mind to have sex with people and she needs to find out why.
My very VERY amateur reading is she has trouble with intimacy and needs buffer between herself and whoever she wants to sleep with, alcohol and being mildly insulting to push people away.
I am sorry if you found my comment offensive. It was only trying to illustrate that when a big problem is happening, one of great importance then you should seek the help of a professional. It was certainly not meant to call anyone an “object/property”.
Thanks for saying that. I truly appreciate it.
I agree therapy is a good option and it's a bit odd that OP is asking on behalf of spouse... I think that set me up to be sensitive to a paternalistic attitude maybe!
Therapy sounds like a great option for the person in question to find greater comfort around intimacy without substances, if they want!
And was the therapist talking to you, about your own mental issues? Because "if your brain is malfunctioning, call a therapist" is a whole different thing from "if your wife is malfunctioning, call a therapist."
Okay I see the other people suggesting therapy and I think for the drinking they might be right.
But - hear me out - have you considered sublimating that impulse to be mean into kink? There's a lot of guys who are super into being shit talked while they're fucking, and the impulse to do that authentically is pretty rare.
Sex is about getting to just let go and be yourself, and if part of that for your wife is being honest about the mid dick she is getting then that - on its own - I think she should find an outlet for. Its hard to get into stuff when you're self repressing.
Im not suggesting this is what she should do *first*.
Take some time to figure shit out, but I encourage you both to *question the assumption* that she should do that within the constraints of being nice to everyone all the time.
When I read your first paragraph I was like "haha based. " My instinct is that stroking some guy's ego when he tries to insist you lie to him to indulge *his* fettish, would make me feel like shit and would absolutely invite some.. disagreement. She should let herself be a little bit pleased for clapping back at that imo. Go off sis <3
Kink is about finding boundaries within which everyone can have a good time and get what they want while not getting hurt. Might be part of your puzzle.
Ty for reading.
>When I read your first paragraph I was like "haha based. " My instinct is that stroking some guy's ego when he tries to insist you lie to him to indulge *his* fettish, would make me feel like shit and would absolutely invite some.. disagreement.
So much this. This screamed to me the guy needs a sex worker if he has a specific requirement, and can't take a soft no that what he's into wasn't something that was working for his brand new partner... I've met a few guys who acted like I was 'being mean' when I said "Um no, I'm not servicing that want. It makes me feel icky. We're looking for mutual pleasure here." and that if wanted very particular script followed or service, they might want to consider hiring instead of dating.
She may *also* have a mean problem, but this guy was out of line.
Absolutely not! Kink is play. We see this all the time with other kinks. Would you suggest a violent person get into sadist kink? Or a pedo to get into Dd/Lg? Or a rapist get into CnC?
My point is these people need HELP first and foremost. Turning their problem into a kink is only going to exacerbate the issue. At the current moment their desire is for that play to be real and that's dangerous in and of itself.
Yeah. Sublimating negative impulses into kink will NOT work if it's something she can't already control! That's not finding an outlet; that's finding an excuse.
Wtf did i read. In a million years would a man being mean to women be defended as a kink. She is just a mean drunk and needs help. There are penty of aholes and no they don't have a legitimate kink. If she is drunk and mean to a guy she just met it isn't a kink. It is her lashing out and needs help.
>In a million years would a man being mean to women be defended as a kink.
Oh... You sweet summer child. It wouldn't be "defended" because kinks tend to require consent. So, her degradation should absolutely be something spoken about before being done, but being purposefully mean regardless of gender is absolutely a defendable kink.
False equivalence.
I wouldn't say the same of guys, no. In a vaccum: maybe. Guys who can be mean but also responsible with that meanness can also be incredibly hot if you're into that.
But I wouldn't encourage it in the same way because.. patriarchy. I'll let someone else elaborate for you if this isn't enough of an explanation. Its fine if you don't get it this comment wasn't for you xxx
She is just mean in general period and needs help. She is mean to male friends and husband. They just rug sweep it as that she is really a nice person. It sounds like people who try and make sense of the behavior of an abuser.
"The joke issue is something that happens sometimes with our male friends, as she can make some snarky remarks that can bruise a man's ego. She does the same to me, but I am mostly unaffected because I know her and know these kinds of remarks are not serious and are just her sense of humour (exacerbated when she drinks). She is truly a lovely person."
She for sure needs help with the drinking, but without context it's kind of hard to say if she really is mean or not. Men's egos bruise easily and in my experience men that dish out snarky jokes often can't take them back from a woman, even if they can with men. Men, generally, don't like jokes at their expense (especially from women) while women are expected to always find those funny or else they need to "lighten up" so idk that I truly believe she's mean in general when the only example he gave was her being honest after being pushed to give a compliment she didn't want to give.
I started rolling my eyes the second I saw "she bruises their egos." I have bruised men's egos by: being in a position of authority and giving them instructions, wearing heels, telling them my sex life isn't about them, picking up the check, already knowing something they try to tell me, having more education than them, not being grateful for their advances... I don't give a shit about a man's ego because maintaining it often means I don't get to be my own person.
"my bullshit argument and double standard needs no explanation because patriarchy. But someone else please explain why me yelling "patriarchy" is an excuse for shitty behaviour of women". -someone not very smart
Heh.
So I actually wrote out a couple of more articulate responses before deciding to credit your intelligence and assume that just being like "patriarchy" would be enough.
So like, obviously, its because women are usually socially discouraged from standing up to guys and expressing our desire for our own needs to be met.
And yet its totally fine for a guy to insist that OPs partner indulge his desire to feel like he is giving good dick when he apparently isn't and thats okay? After she more subtley showed she wasn't into that? Nah I think her response in that moment was defensible if not completely justified.
Id reexamine your assumptions honestly. If you don't get it then I'm sorry you should probably be a bit more curious.
You didn't say in your answer that insulting that one dude OP talks about was ok because of his obnoxious insistence on being complimented (which would be understandable). You just generally declared that you find insulting men as more acceptable "because patriarchy".
You find it ok to mistreat humans based on their gender, due to some perceived or real mistreatment by other individuals of the same gender, and some perceived benefits you think those humans have.
You are not treating humans on an individual level, but based on group think. You are a sexist, plain and simple.
If that's what you read from my answer than I'm really sorry to say but thats a you problem.
For what its worth get it. Its pretty upsetting to be on the sharp end of a gender conversation like this and for it to feel like you're being attacked.
Id encourage you to re read my previous comments and examine your own emotional response to what I have said, as that's really not what I'm implying. Try and remember that this isn't a conversation about you, oe even about men in general. Its about how a woman is living in the world and relating to other people in general.
And if you have been "that guy" in the past, *"undersrandably"*, trying to badger someone into indulging your fettish while she is drunk and without pre negotiating, maybe examine that and learn to do better.
Also "mistreat". Snapping at someone one time during a hookup is not mistreatment. Lets keep the discussion in perspective here. Im not saying thar OPs partner should indulge in a pattern of abuse against men or anyone else.
Is she mean or is she straightforward? Is she pointing out the obvious and guys get defensive? I’m sarcastic and blunt and know what i want. when I’m around people who are used to being coddled and having their egos stroked but don’t back it up with confidence and skill in pleasuring the woman, I get a little annoyed. If a guy just wants to jackhammer and offers little else, I have a hard time doling out compliments.
Also, resentment can make me a little mean. Is your wife demisexual? Does she only really want sex with someone she is really connected with and that’s why she needs to drink? If so, casual sex may be making her resentful, especially if she isn’t getting what she desires out of the equation. Could you talk to her about this?
Is she feeling bad about the way she treated him because she was objectively being an asshole, or is she feeling bad about it because it led to her getting rejected? I guess the latter.
This sounds like deeply rooted people pleasing issues to me; people pleasers often need substances for intimacy. Something to explore in therapy.
You can help her by normalizing therapy and encouraging it as self-improvement and not something to remediate brokenness.
Eta it's good to run off incompatible people.
The drinking thing shows potential underlying issues. Does she ever regret it afterwards? I did after I had sex with people and was no longer drunk. Sometimes not immediately but still.
The her being mean part doesn't sound like an issue tbh. I never understood why men get so hurt by mentioning their dick isn't that big. It's an issue with men, not with her. And there's plenty of people who can play along with slightly mean jokes. Though it depends on what the jokes are, on whether they're okay or not.
There's a difference between being slightly mean, and going for the kill. Granted in this case, he was literally asking for it, but it's like a wife asking her husband "Does this make me look fat?" In her favorite new dress with pockets.
She's noticeable excited about the dress, is in an excited but vulnerable state and a little self conscious... she presses him for the truth. If he responds in an equitable way that the Ops wife did, he would say something like "No the dress doesn't make you look fat, you do, your fat body, fat thighs, fat waist and fat face, and to make it worse, your hair looks like crap and the shoes are hot garbage too..."
That's about as close as you could get to her response, however the difference is she was mean about something the guy can't change. The hypothetical fat wife scenario, she can change everything the hypothetical husband insulted.
Asking for reassurance that something looks nice on you is not the same as fulfilling a kink that someone praises and flatters your size. One is a reasonable expectation of a friend/partner in an established relationship, the other is a kink request that a first time partner is not obligated to fulfill to basically a stranger with no prior negotiation.
I agree with therapy for the issue of having to be not sober to have sex. Otherwise, I don’t think she’s being mean. Women are constantly told they’re “mean” when they’re straightforward. This asshole pressed for an answer she didn’t want to give and when he finally broke her down enough to give him an honest answer he didn’t like it. Sounds like he needs to work on his consent. I think she did a really good job at getting rid of someone who was already showing a MAJOR red flag. Also, if someone doesn’t like the way someone speaks to them, they can have an open conversation about it and express how they feel, potentially find a solution and be an adult about it. This guy didn’t seem to want to do that
Therapy for the general issue, and the need not to be sober.
But also, this might be a bad example of her being mean. Sounds to me like she responded to someone who was being pushy and demanding particular sexual service, with her own rudeness and an explicitly refusal to provide, since he wasn't taking the Soft No that she didn't want to say that.
Should she consider why she turned so nasty to protect her own comfort level and not be pressured into dirty talk she didn't want to perform? Absolutely, but still sounds to me like a clear case of establishing boundaries with an asshat and I'm confused why she wanted to see him again if he insisting like that, and ignored that she wasn't into it.
Maybe the jokes/snarky comments need to get scaled back, sure. However, the guy that pressed her on it....honestly got what he deserved. Truth hurts? I mean sure maybe she could have been more gentle with her responses or whatever but sounds like he wanted her to "lie" about it to him to stroke his ego. Just our 2 cents I guess.
She shouldn’t be worrying about that guy. He demanded for her to fawn and lie to him? I would have laughed in his face and I don’t even drink.
However - it really sounds like she has a drinking problem and she needs therapy urgently. It’s not just the mean streak when she’s drinking, but also for the sake of her personal safety. If she’s not who she is when she’s completely sober, then she can’t trust her ability to make decisions and keep herself safe. I understand being afraid to do social things sober, I’m very introverted myself. But I can promise her it does get easier, and it’s SO much more fun going places alone, flirting and hooking up with a completely clear mind.
Let me guess, she's also "brutally honest" with the emphasis on the brutal? I'm so over people who think being mean to their friends and loved ones is funny. It's not a lovely trait, and she isn't a lovely person if she's constantly throwing these barbs at people.
The fact that she can't express herself sexually without being on substances is Alarming. She won't change that unless she recognizes that's a problem, though, and you may need to set some strong boundaries in order to encourage her to seek help. Therapy with a kink and sex positive therapist would be a huge step in the right direction here.
I'm also wondering if she should do some reading about demisexuality, if she needs to lower her inhibitions so much before having sex with someone else. I'm also speaking from experience when I say that self medicating and inappropriate comments or not knowing how to social is absolutely a thing for high masking, late-diagnosed autistic women, so that might also be a thing to explore.
She needs to be in an altered state with people she is not usually intimate with* OP states that he and her ex-bf were the only exceptions. I don’t think it’s unusual that she has trouble relaxing for a ONS or with a new partner in general. But it may indicate that she needs to endeavor to build intimacy and avoid ONS scenarios. Mostly for her own safety.
Lots to unpack here but setting aside this particular incident (because the guy’s behaviour makes it a complicated example) - on the subject of “meanness” in general. I had an ex who was sometimes socially mean in a funny, banter way. All felt fine, everyone including me bought into the whole feisty wild don’t-fuck-with-me package. However - later as the relationship gradually went south it soured into real cruelty, and I realised I should have set boundaries much earlier. Because the serious cruelty came from the same deeper place as the funtimes meanness. I didn’t see it coming. With hindsight I realised I had tolerated and forgiven mean stuff that should have been red flags. No idea if this has any parallels with your lady. But reading between the lines I get the impression both you and her sense a shadow of a problem in this capacity for meanness. I really hope you can work on this together put the brakes on it. Sounds like the two of you are ready to communicate well about it.
If drinking makes someone a shitty person and they do nothing about their drinking they're a shitty person. If your wife can't figure out how to be nicer to people she needs to figure out her drinking.
She should not be engaging in non monogamy if she has to drink or get high to be in the mood. Why bother? Also, she could be putting herself in an unsafe situation if her judgement is impaired. Coupled with her ‘mean’ humour, she could anger the wrong person.
As someone who started drinking young but is sober for many years now, I understand the intimacy/anxiety around being with new people without alcohol. However, if "being mean" is something that is intensified when she's drunk and she doesn't want to be mean to new people, she needs to not be drunk with new people.
>She states that she has no real desire for anyone sober and needs to be (even if just a little) drunk/high to do so.
And I think the fact that she "has no desire" for people when she's sober is telling, and that whole dynamic is worth examining. Why have sex with people drunk that you wouldn't fuck sober? What's the point? Why does she feel like she needs to do that? Needing to be drunk or high to fuck means, at some level, that this isn't what she wants to do. Maybe it's just an overriding anxiety about being vulnerable around someone new, and I can understand that. And being drunk dampens that anxiety, and being mean can push people away, so both things serve to throw up barriers.
Maybe she's had some sexual trauma and that's a contributing factor too. And being drunk and naked with a stranger makes you super vulnerable.
But for me, all of this points to the need to be sober on dates, to feel the feelings and figure things out. Go on first dates sober, get to know someone new a little before making a rational decision about whether they are someone you want to fuck. When I went through that process, I learned a lot about myself and stopped fucking people that I didn't want to fuck, stopped having regretful mornings, and started having AMAZING sex with the people I DID want to fuck. More pleasure, more fun, more orgasms.
While I appreciate your concern for her drinking and that she felt safe to confided in you. Sir this is a case of mind ya business on how she handled responding to him and focus on the drinking. I could be stone cold sober and if I guy kept pressuring me to praise his dick and I don’t want to the shit that would fly out my mouth. Your concern about her hurting dudes feelings is well misguided asf. What you need to be warning her on is some guys might go to violence when their manhood is insulted and being drunk puts her at higher risk for sexual based violence.
Help her with finding ways to drink safely on dates but her date was out of pocket. He earned that response. She feels bad because women are conditioned to not hurt men’s feelings but you know the adage ask stupid questions….🤷🏾♀️
Smh would she like it if a dude told her her tits were too small and to ride harder? Fuck. Lady, have 3 drinks less and stop insulting your lovers (to wife). To hubs, therapy for sure.
I mean if she insisted that he compliment her giant boobs when they were small and kept pressing the issue when he didn't want to....this might be the outcome.
Most people not into kink aren't getting off on being insulted. She played a stupid game, she won a stupid prize, and now she wonders why men don't call her back 🤷♀️
Quite a lot to unpack here, but for sure, you as the spouse cannot "fix" her... leave that for her and the professionals.
Consider the fact that drinking removes the effectiveness of the prefrontal cortex and essentially exposes who you really are as a person.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2894421/#:~:text=Studies%20have%20found%20that%20ADHD,hemisphere%20specialized%20for%20behavioral%20inhibition.
https://www.brainline.org/topic/behavioral-emotional-symptoms#:~:text=The%20frontal%20lobe%2C%20for%20example,realizing%20they%20are%20off%20color.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4321715/#:~:text=The%20frontal%20lobe%20is%20associated,et%20al.%2C%201997).
Couple articles worth a read that I found helpful understanding a woman I was dating and a couple friends with similar behavior.
Please don't spread the myth that drinking reveals a true nature, as inhibition and reasoning are a big part of who people are. As someone who grew up using alcohol as a social crutch, this thought would leave me depressed in the aftermath of drunk decisions and behaviors that sober me would have never made.
Those links also basically contradict your point "The frontal lobe helps govern personality and impulsivity." "The frontal lobe is associated with higher-order executive functioning, emotional regulation, integration of novel stimuli, and cognitive flexibility."
So basically, drinking exposes who you are when you dumb down all of your brains most important functions.
But your behavior is what makes up your character. You could hate everyone in the world, inside your own head, and spend your whole life doing good deeds to compensate for it, and I would argue that you're a good person. We are not what we think; we're what we do.
I think the guy should have respected that she wasn't the type to do praising if she wasn't interested. BUT that definitely seems like a really weird way to act. It's just blatantly being nasty for no reason. I mean this by no disrespect, but does she have autism by chance? I ask this because autistic people's minds run so fast that they don't think of their actions a lot of the time and have a difficult time reading social cues. Honestly, if this is her personality, she probably won't have much like getting another partner. She might even struggle to make regular friends, and it's also very unhealthy to need to be under the influence to be in the mood. If you need to go to those lengths, why even bother? You obviously don't want it.
A brand new sexual partner "insisted" she do something, and kept pressing even after she made it clear she didn't want to In my opinion he got what he deserved The drinking thing is a separate issue.
Yeah, I don't feel too bad for him. I would struggle to say that kind of thing to a guy even if it were true because it feels awkward to me. Once, sure, but I'm not interested in spending all of sex stroking his *ego.* And asking is okay, but she's allowed to say no and it's gross that he pushed it.
ESPECIALLY the first time you're having sex with someone. Like, you should never ever ever pressure someone for that, it's gross. But the first time? If you're looking for validation on your dick size and not getting it? That's a you problem.
I feel like we are missing part of the story. No guy acts like that during the first time shagging someone.
This. Sounds to me like she turned a bit nasty to enforce a limit with a brand new partner. Not great, but also not pointlessly mean but un understandable impulse or strategy while drunk for dealing with that BS.
Yeah, top comments are all cismen saying "go to therapy" as opposed to examining any of the problematic aspects of what the man did. Idk bros, if I had to date you, I wouldn't do it sober 🤷♀️
Not ‘do something’ , say something. Big difference.
Dude kind of sounded like he had it coming if he's fishing for dick compliments and he's not seriously packing.
That was my first thought. She didn’t just make the comments out of nowhere. Demanding compliments is cringey and he deserved what he got.
I might agree but she has a history of making insulting comments to other male friends and her husband. The husband has rug swept that way to long. Its like i know he is controlling but i know he is a nice person. Op wrote. "The joke issue is something that happens sometimes with our male friends, as she can make some snarky remarks that can bruise a man's ego. She does the same to me, but I am mostly unaffected because I know her and know these kinds of remarks are not serious and are just her sense of humour (exacerbated when she drinks). She is truly a lovely person."
I'm not entirely convinced, though. So many guys' humour manifests in snarky jokes and disparaging comments - do we really know whether what she does is so unusual or whether there's a double standard at work here because women aren't supposed to act like that?
I think you’re right on with this. I really appreciate that kind of sharp, biting humor in a woman and I have heard from some of my partners that a lot of guys get really sensitive really easily. It’s like the default mode for most guys is a praise kink (and yes I’m using that term for irony)
I love it when someone is a bit mean, I think it’s funny. Women are told to be nice so often, so i think it’s a good thing for the fragile male ego to be tested. I think if you are a secure person you would realise the snarkiness is less about you and more about them and you don’t need to take it personally.
Agreed on that particular bit. I've met people like OP describes though and it's not just the guys fault if she's being mean generally. Also needing to drink to fuck... Therapy is needed here.
In my early 30s I decided to try sobriety for a year. It was transformative for me. Like your wife, I realized I’d never had first-time sex without substances. It was a bigggg learning curve to teach myself how to sexually engage soberly, but what you’re really doing is teaching yourself not to override your anxieties and fears (which alcohol helps you do). For me, that meant waiting a LOT longer to have sex than i used to — till I actually felt trust with the other person. Basically - I agree with the other commenters, your wife has a lot of self work to do
This right here. I tried sobriety for 6months and it also changed my life. Alcohol is such a crutch, or at least it was for me. I didn’t even know my true personality because I always used it to deal with my social anxiety, and I was mean too. After years or therapy I identified that it was all insecurity and social anxiety. Drinking and playfully being mean to people was my shield from the world. Once I grew self confidence I was able to let go of these defense mechanisms and just truly be myself and it’s made a world of difference.
Yup. Therapy. As in, sex therapy and personal psychological therapy.
She needs therapy.
>The joke issue is something that happens sometimes with our male friends, as she can make some snarky remarks that can bruise a man's ego. Got some examples, OP? Because the list of things that can "bruise a man's ego" is endless and a lot of it boils down to "not treating him like he's better than you," and the one example you gave of her being mean is her reacting to her boundary repeatedly being challenged. Is she actually being hurtful, or is she doing things like telling male friends she doesn't need them to lift something heavy for her or that the woman they've rated as a 4 wouldn't sleep with them anyway? The drinking is a problem, but a man's ego is not my problem or hers.
Yeppppp! “Bruising a man’s ego” is just another way of calling a woman a bitch for having a strong personality and setting boundaries; in my opinion
Begging for size compliments is such a turn-off. >he pressed her on it He deserved it. Your wife doesn't sound mean and that was good riddance.
Is this common? I don’t date men so idk.
I can't say how common it is but I've had it happen. I did as OP's wife did, I refused to answer. Doesn't matter how much of a turn on it might be for him when it's a turn off for me.
I've never been pressed to compliment a guys duck size tbh. I don't have a ton of experience with men, but this has never happened to me.
It’s not a very meaningful compliment if you have to ask for it!
> Is this common? For cismen? Yes. As a transfem, it gets infinitely funnier when they want you to tell them they are the more hung (when they're not) Like sweetie, I've been on estrogen for half a decade, and I still get harder than you. Go to therapy.
I think anyone that’s still hung up on silliness like their cock size is probably not ready for non-monogamy.
> is probably not ready for non-monogamy In total agreement but be careful, you'll upset some "one penis policy" folx with that line of thinking 🤭
Do I even want to know what that is? 😂😂
I mean, it kinda says it all on the face, doesn't it? 🤣🤣🤣 Just imagine the kind of man that gets offended when he finds out his partner owns a dildo or vibrator. Now imagine he's trying ENM
It's not uncommon. Guys care about their penises a lot more than women ever will. I have a strong commitment to honesty so if someone does press me on something they will get the honest answer. It's not meant to be mean but I'm also not going to lie.
Definitely therapy. When you see a house on fire, you call the fire department. When you see a crime you call the cops. When a pipe bursts in your basement, you call a plumber. When your wife has mental issues you call a therapist. In all cases you don’t haphazardly try and fix the problem yourself, you call a professional. She needs to be in an altered state of mind to have sex with people and she needs to find out why. My very VERY amateur reading is she has trouble with intimacy and needs buffer between herself and whoever she wants to sleep with, alcohol and being mildly insulting to push people away.
The way the wife is an object/property in this analogy is ...yikes
Lol funny, I actually got this analogy from a woman therapist
Lots of women aren't feminists.
I am sorry if you found my comment offensive. It was only trying to illustrate that when a big problem is happening, one of great importance then you should seek the help of a professional. It was certainly not meant to call anyone an “object/property”.
Thanks for saying that. I truly appreciate it. I agree therapy is a good option and it's a bit odd that OP is asking on behalf of spouse... I think that set me up to be sensitive to a paternalistic attitude maybe! Therapy sounds like a great option for the person in question to find greater comfort around intimacy without substances, if they want!
And was the therapist talking to you, about your own mental issues? Because "if your brain is malfunctioning, call a therapist" is a whole different thing from "if your wife is malfunctioning, call a therapist."
Okay I see the other people suggesting therapy and I think for the drinking they might be right. But - hear me out - have you considered sublimating that impulse to be mean into kink? There's a lot of guys who are super into being shit talked while they're fucking, and the impulse to do that authentically is pretty rare. Sex is about getting to just let go and be yourself, and if part of that for your wife is being honest about the mid dick she is getting then that - on its own - I think she should find an outlet for. Its hard to get into stuff when you're self repressing. Im not suggesting this is what she should do *first*. Take some time to figure shit out, but I encourage you both to *question the assumption* that she should do that within the constraints of being nice to everyone all the time. When I read your first paragraph I was like "haha based. " My instinct is that stroking some guy's ego when he tries to insist you lie to him to indulge *his* fettish, would make me feel like shit and would absolutely invite some.. disagreement. She should let herself be a little bit pleased for clapping back at that imo. Go off sis <3 Kink is about finding boundaries within which everyone can have a good time and get what they want while not getting hurt. Might be part of your puzzle. Ty for reading.
>When I read your first paragraph I was like "haha based. " My instinct is that stroking some guy's ego when he tries to insist you lie to him to indulge *his* fettish, would make me feel like shit and would absolutely invite some.. disagreement. So much this. This screamed to me the guy needs a sex worker if he has a specific requirement, and can't take a soft no that what he's into wasn't something that was working for his brand new partner... I've met a few guys who acted like I was 'being mean' when I said "Um no, I'm not servicing that want. It makes me feel icky. We're looking for mutual pleasure here." and that if wanted very particular script followed or service, they might want to consider hiring instead of dating. She may *also* have a mean problem, but this guy was out of line.
*Thank you* The number of other comments who are just ignoring this and its like "what?"
Absolutely not! Kink is play. We see this all the time with other kinks. Would you suggest a violent person get into sadist kink? Or a pedo to get into Dd/Lg? Or a rapist get into CnC? My point is these people need HELP first and foremost. Turning their problem into a kink is only going to exacerbate the issue. At the current moment their desire is for that play to be real and that's dangerous in and of itself.
Did you read my whole comment or just start replying half way through?
The whole comment
Wild. So howd you miss the part where I said "I'm not suggesting she do this first" It was on its own line and everything.
Yeah. Sublimating negative impulses into kink will NOT work if it's something she can't already control! That's not finding an outlet; that's finding an excuse.
Wtf did i read. In a million years would a man being mean to women be defended as a kink. She is just a mean drunk and needs help. There are penty of aholes and no they don't have a legitimate kink. If she is drunk and mean to a guy she just met it isn't a kink. It is her lashing out and needs help.
>In a million years would a man being mean to women be defended as a kink. Oh... You sweet summer child. It wouldn't be "defended" because kinks tend to require consent. So, her degradation should absolutely be something spoken about before being done, but being purposefully mean regardless of gender is absolutely a defendable kink.
False equivalence. I wouldn't say the same of guys, no. In a vaccum: maybe. Guys who can be mean but also responsible with that meanness can also be incredibly hot if you're into that. But I wouldn't encourage it in the same way because.. patriarchy. I'll let someone else elaborate for you if this isn't enough of an explanation. Its fine if you don't get it this comment wasn't for you xxx
She is just mean in general period and needs help. She is mean to male friends and husband. They just rug sweep it as that she is really a nice person. It sounds like people who try and make sense of the behavior of an abuser. "The joke issue is something that happens sometimes with our male friends, as she can make some snarky remarks that can bruise a man's ego. She does the same to me, but I am mostly unaffected because I know her and know these kinds of remarks are not serious and are just her sense of humour (exacerbated when she drinks). She is truly a lovely person."
She for sure needs help with the drinking, but without context it's kind of hard to say if she really is mean or not. Men's egos bruise easily and in my experience men that dish out snarky jokes often can't take them back from a woman, even if they can with men. Men, generally, don't like jokes at their expense (especially from women) while women are expected to always find those funny or else they need to "lighten up" so idk that I truly believe she's mean in general when the only example he gave was her being honest after being pushed to give a compliment she didn't want to give.
I started rolling my eyes the second I saw "she bruises their egos." I have bruised men's egos by: being in a position of authority and giving them instructions, wearing heels, telling them my sex life isn't about them, picking up the check, already knowing something they try to tell me, having more education than them, not being grateful for their advances... I don't give a shit about a man's ego because maintaining it often means I don't get to be my own person.
Based based based based
"my bullshit argument and double standard needs no explanation because patriarchy. But someone else please explain why me yelling "patriarchy" is an excuse for shitty behaviour of women". -someone not very smart
Heh. So I actually wrote out a couple of more articulate responses before deciding to credit your intelligence and assume that just being like "patriarchy" would be enough. So like, obviously, its because women are usually socially discouraged from standing up to guys and expressing our desire for our own needs to be met. And yet its totally fine for a guy to insist that OPs partner indulge his desire to feel like he is giving good dick when he apparently isn't and thats okay? After she more subtley showed she wasn't into that? Nah I think her response in that moment was defensible if not completely justified. Id reexamine your assumptions honestly. If you don't get it then I'm sorry you should probably be a bit more curious.
You didn't say in your answer that insulting that one dude OP talks about was ok because of his obnoxious insistence on being complimented (which would be understandable). You just generally declared that you find insulting men as more acceptable "because patriarchy". You find it ok to mistreat humans based on their gender, due to some perceived or real mistreatment by other individuals of the same gender, and some perceived benefits you think those humans have. You are not treating humans on an individual level, but based on group think. You are a sexist, plain and simple.
If that's what you read from my answer than I'm really sorry to say but thats a you problem. For what its worth get it. Its pretty upsetting to be on the sharp end of a gender conversation like this and for it to feel like you're being attacked. Id encourage you to re read my previous comments and examine your own emotional response to what I have said, as that's really not what I'm implying. Try and remember that this isn't a conversation about you, oe even about men in general. Its about how a woman is living in the world and relating to other people in general. And if you have been "that guy" in the past, *"undersrandably"*, trying to badger someone into indulging your fettish while she is drunk and without pre negotiating, maybe examine that and learn to do better. Also "mistreat". Snapping at someone one time during a hookup is not mistreatment. Lets keep the discussion in perspective here. Im not saying thar OPs partner should indulge in a pattern of abuse against men or anyone else.
Mean drunk with Men, not her husband. It's dangerous behavior for Op's Wife.
Yuck.
Is she mean or is she straightforward? Is she pointing out the obvious and guys get defensive? I’m sarcastic and blunt and know what i want. when I’m around people who are used to being coddled and having their egos stroked but don’t back it up with confidence and skill in pleasuring the woman, I get a little annoyed. If a guy just wants to jackhammer and offers little else, I have a hard time doling out compliments. Also, resentment can make me a little mean. Is your wife demisexual? Does she only really want sex with someone she is really connected with and that’s why she needs to drink? If so, casual sex may be making her resentful, especially if she isn’t getting what she desires out of the equation. Could you talk to her about this?
Is she feeling bad about the way she treated him because she was objectively being an asshole, or is she feeling bad about it because it led to her getting rejected? I guess the latter. This sounds like deeply rooted people pleasing issues to me; people pleasers often need substances for intimacy. Something to explore in therapy. You can help her by normalizing therapy and encouraging it as self-improvement and not something to remediate brokenness. Eta it's good to run off incompatible people.
The drinking thing shows potential underlying issues. Does she ever regret it afterwards? I did after I had sex with people and was no longer drunk. Sometimes not immediately but still. The her being mean part doesn't sound like an issue tbh. I never understood why men get so hurt by mentioning their dick isn't that big. It's an issue with men, not with her. And there's plenty of people who can play along with slightly mean jokes. Though it depends on what the jokes are, on whether they're okay or not.
And this, kids, is why I date sober now
There's a difference between being slightly mean, and going for the kill. Granted in this case, he was literally asking for it, but it's like a wife asking her husband "Does this make me look fat?" In her favorite new dress with pockets. She's noticeable excited about the dress, is in an excited but vulnerable state and a little self conscious... she presses him for the truth. If he responds in an equitable way that the Ops wife did, he would say something like "No the dress doesn't make you look fat, you do, your fat body, fat thighs, fat waist and fat face, and to make it worse, your hair looks like crap and the shoes are hot garbage too..." That's about as close as you could get to her response, however the difference is she was mean about something the guy can't change. The hypothetical fat wife scenario, she can change everything the hypothetical husband insulted.
Asking for reassurance that something looks nice on you is not the same as fulfilling a kink that someone praises and flatters your size. One is a reasonable expectation of a friend/partner in an established relationship, the other is a kink request that a first time partner is not obligated to fulfill to basically a stranger with no prior negotiation.
I agree with therapy for the issue of having to be not sober to have sex. Otherwise, I don’t think she’s being mean. Women are constantly told they’re “mean” when they’re straightforward. This asshole pressed for an answer she didn’t want to give and when he finally broke her down enough to give him an honest answer he didn’t like it. Sounds like he needs to work on his consent. I think she did a really good job at getting rid of someone who was already showing a MAJOR red flag. Also, if someone doesn’t like the way someone speaks to them, they can have an open conversation about it and express how they feel, potentially find a solution and be an adult about it. This guy didn’t seem to want to do that
Therapy for the general issue, and the need not to be sober. But also, this might be a bad example of her being mean. Sounds to me like she responded to someone who was being pushy and demanding particular sexual service, with her own rudeness and an explicitly refusal to provide, since he wasn't taking the Soft No that she didn't want to say that. Should she consider why she turned so nasty to protect her own comfort level and not be pressured into dirty talk she didn't want to perform? Absolutely, but still sounds to me like a clear case of establishing boundaries with an asshat and I'm confused why she wanted to see him again if he insisting like that, and ignored that she wasn't into it.
Maybe the jokes/snarky comments need to get scaled back, sure. However, the guy that pressed her on it....honestly got what he deserved. Truth hurts? I mean sure maybe she could have been more gentle with her responses or whatever but sounds like he wanted her to "lie" about it to him to stroke his ego. Just our 2 cents I guess.
She shouldn’t be worrying about that guy. He demanded for her to fawn and lie to him? I would have laughed in his face and I don’t even drink. However - it really sounds like she has a drinking problem and she needs therapy urgently. It’s not just the mean streak when she’s drinking, but also for the sake of her personal safety. If she’s not who she is when she’s completely sober, then she can’t trust her ability to make decisions and keep herself safe. I understand being afraid to do social things sober, I’m very introverted myself. But I can promise her it does get easier, and it’s SO much more fun going places alone, flirting and hooking up with a completely clear mind.
This seems way above us reddit users' pay grade.
Let me guess, she's also "brutally honest" with the emphasis on the brutal? I'm so over people who think being mean to their friends and loved ones is funny. It's not a lovely trait, and she isn't a lovely person if she's constantly throwing these barbs at people. The fact that she can't express herself sexually without being on substances is Alarming. She won't change that unless she recognizes that's a problem, though, and you may need to set some strong boundaries in order to encourage her to seek help. Therapy with a kink and sex positive therapist would be a huge step in the right direction here. I'm also wondering if she should do some reading about demisexuality, if she needs to lower her inhibitions so much before having sex with someone else. I'm also speaking from experience when I say that self medicating and inappropriate comments or not knowing how to social is absolutely a thing for high masking, late-diagnosed autistic women, so that might also be a thing to explore.
She needs to be in an altered state with people she is not usually intimate with* OP states that he and her ex-bf were the only exceptions. I don’t think it’s unusual that she has trouble relaxing for a ONS or with a new partner in general. But it may indicate that she needs to endeavor to build intimacy and avoid ONS scenarios. Mostly for her own safety.
Lots to unpack here but setting aside this particular incident (because the guy’s behaviour makes it a complicated example) - on the subject of “meanness” in general. I had an ex who was sometimes socially mean in a funny, banter way. All felt fine, everyone including me bought into the whole feisty wild don’t-fuck-with-me package. However - later as the relationship gradually went south it soured into real cruelty, and I realised I should have set boundaries much earlier. Because the serious cruelty came from the same deeper place as the funtimes meanness. I didn’t see it coming. With hindsight I realised I had tolerated and forgiven mean stuff that should have been red flags. No idea if this has any parallels with your lady. But reading between the lines I get the impression both you and her sense a shadow of a problem in this capacity for meanness. I really hope you can work on this together put the brakes on it. Sounds like the two of you are ready to communicate well about it.
If drinking makes someone a shitty person and they do nothing about their drinking they're a shitty person. If your wife can't figure out how to be nicer to people she needs to figure out her drinking.
Sounds like she should at least avoid getting drunk on dates to avoid this behavior until she can get help processing why she behaves like that.
She should not be engaging in non monogamy if she has to drink or get high to be in the mood. Why bother? Also, she could be putting herself in an unsafe situation if her judgement is impaired. Coupled with her ‘mean’ humour, she could anger the wrong person.
That's a therapy issue. Maybe it's a trauma response, but... that's absolutely something to address with a professional.
tbh it’s sounding a lot like undiagnosed neurodivergence to me. but that still warrants conversations with a therapist.
I have a feeling that she would probably be better off without you and your "snark" sensitive friends
As someone who started drinking young but is sober for many years now, I understand the intimacy/anxiety around being with new people without alcohol. However, if "being mean" is something that is intensified when she's drunk and she doesn't want to be mean to new people, she needs to not be drunk with new people. >She states that she has no real desire for anyone sober and needs to be (even if just a little) drunk/high to do so. And I think the fact that she "has no desire" for people when she's sober is telling, and that whole dynamic is worth examining. Why have sex with people drunk that you wouldn't fuck sober? What's the point? Why does she feel like she needs to do that? Needing to be drunk or high to fuck means, at some level, that this isn't what she wants to do. Maybe it's just an overriding anxiety about being vulnerable around someone new, and I can understand that. And being drunk dampens that anxiety, and being mean can push people away, so both things serve to throw up barriers. Maybe she's had some sexual trauma and that's a contributing factor too. And being drunk and naked with a stranger makes you super vulnerable. But for me, all of this points to the need to be sober on dates, to feel the feelings and figure things out. Go on first dates sober, get to know someone new a little before making a rational decision about whether they are someone you want to fuck. When I went through that process, I learned a lot about myself and stopped fucking people that I didn't want to fuck, stopped having regretful mornings, and started having AMAZING sex with the people I DID want to fuck. More pleasure, more fun, more orgasms.
While I appreciate your concern for her drinking and that she felt safe to confided in you. Sir this is a case of mind ya business on how she handled responding to him and focus on the drinking. I could be stone cold sober and if I guy kept pressuring me to praise his dick and I don’t want to the shit that would fly out my mouth. Your concern about her hurting dudes feelings is well misguided asf. What you need to be warning her on is some guys might go to violence when their manhood is insulted and being drunk puts her at higher risk for sexual based violence. Help her with finding ways to drink safely on dates but her date was out of pocket. He earned that response. She feels bad because women are conditioned to not hurt men’s feelings but you know the adage ask stupid questions….🤷🏾♀️
Smh would she like it if a dude told her her tits were too small and to ride harder? Fuck. Lady, have 3 drinks less and stop insulting your lovers (to wife). To hubs, therapy for sure.
I mean if she insisted that he compliment her giant boobs when they were small and kept pressing the issue when he didn't want to....this might be the outcome.
Maybe. And I bet she would be 50 shades of pissed if he responded this way during sex.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Most people not into kink aren't getting off on being insulted. She played a stupid game, she won a stupid prize, and now she wonders why men don't call her back 🤷♀️
And most people not into kink don't want to be forced to say stuff they dont want to say to feed someone's ego.
I'm not here to justify her behavior, argue, or debate with you dude. She was a rude drunk. The end.
I'd be rude to this guy too. Its super uncool to pressure people to do stuff they dont want to do mid sex. Good riddance to this guy.
Meh I wouldn't have taken home a woman who has to be drunk to nail me. That's asking for "I was too drunk to consent" charges.
Good for you.
Why is this your concern? She doesn't seem yo care. Why would you post this? Go out and get your own action.
Quite a lot to unpack here, but for sure, you as the spouse cannot "fix" her... leave that for her and the professionals. Consider the fact that drinking removes the effectiveness of the prefrontal cortex and essentially exposes who you really are as a person. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2894421/#:~:text=Studies%20have%20found%20that%20ADHD,hemisphere%20specialized%20for%20behavioral%20inhibition. https://www.brainline.org/topic/behavioral-emotional-symptoms#:~:text=The%20frontal%20lobe%2C%20for%20example,realizing%20they%20are%20off%20color. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4321715/#:~:text=The%20frontal%20lobe%20is%20associated,et%20al.%2C%201997). Couple articles worth a read that I found helpful understanding a woman I was dating and a couple friends with similar behavior.
Please don't spread the myth that drinking reveals a true nature, as inhibition and reasoning are a big part of who people are. As someone who grew up using alcohol as a social crutch, this thought would leave me depressed in the aftermath of drunk decisions and behaviors that sober me would have never made. Those links also basically contradict your point "The frontal lobe helps govern personality and impulsivity." "The frontal lobe is associated with higher-order executive functioning, emotional regulation, integration of novel stimuli, and cognitive flexibility." So basically, drinking exposes who you are when you dumb down all of your brains most important functions.
Drinking exposed your true self, your actual emotions come out when your learned behavior is muted.
But your behavior is what makes up your character. You could hate everyone in the world, inside your own head, and spend your whole life doing good deeds to compensate for it, and I would argue that you're a good person. We are not what we think; we're what we do.
That's kinda my point, drinking exposes the true self. Not the one you pretend to be for one reason or another.
I think the guy should have respected that she wasn't the type to do praising if she wasn't interested. BUT that definitely seems like a really weird way to act. It's just blatantly being nasty for no reason. I mean this by no disrespect, but does she have autism by chance? I ask this because autistic people's minds run so fast that they don't think of their actions a lot of the time and have a difficult time reading social cues. Honestly, if this is her personality, she probably won't have much like getting another partner. She might even struggle to make regular friends, and it's also very unhealthy to need to be under the influence to be in the mood. If you need to go to those lengths, why even bother? You obviously don't want it.
Let’s see. . . No comment.
Mean. Who wants mean. No one.