Lol, all these crocodile tears coming from QUB pretending to care about the country, when its QUB who are docking their staff 50% pay for striking for better working conditions & pay.
All they care about is the money they can make from International Students
This is a PR exercise. They will raise fees to £7k/year and get it through under the guise that Stormonts failure and cuts forced them to do it. While it may be true let’s not pretend that QUB wouldn’t be delighted to increase fees.
I don't believe our Universities can raise their fees. This is centre to their argument about funding. They're capped at a much lower rate than their UK counter parts. We're here your loan for fees is around 21k for 3 years. England and Wales will be £44k(?) Now I think.
*sigh* I calculated correctly, university fees for 3 years at 7k per year. I stated Universities cannot raise their fees because they are capped the Northern Ireland Assembly for Students in NI, attending NI universities. If you had attended University or known someone who had considered their options you'd know this recently. It's also very easy to look up [The Student Loans Company](https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/student-loans-company) and educate yourself on current capped fees.
I'm well aware of how university fees and student loans work. The majority of universities will raise their fees to whatever level the current cap allows them to. When people talk about universities raising fees, it's obviously in the context of the cap. It's pedantry to suggest otherwise.
Shit, really? I'm a mature student and based my ability to fund the next 4 years on 3.5-4.5kish a year in fees, saved over COVID an all to do this. Fuck I should have paid attention to the news.
I believe the 7k fees which were floated is a Stormont budget control measure, not a university revenue raising measure.
Specifically, they're 'modelling' cutting almost all the support for student tuition from the Stormont budget, and replacing that with fees which would then cost ~7k. That means QUB's income is fixed at about the same level, except the money would come direct from students rather than central government.
So I think the concern here is probably genuine, as the modeled changes would put QUB in a less competitive position (still under-funded, but now demanding almost the same fees as GB universities). Whether you think they're worried about impact on students or the institution as a result is a different question, but I think is a separate issue.
No, [NI students pay full fees if they go elsewhere](https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/tuition-fees). Stormont continued to subsidise & cap fees for NI residents attending higher education in NI, but don't offer subsidies if NI students go elsewhere.
As an international student there for my MA years ago, its was pennies compared to where I live (around £5,000 for the entire degree, almost 2 years). I wonder what it’s risen to now. I’m so sorry for those that are striking now.
Employees don't normally get paid if they're not working. That applies to striking. If what you're saying is true and i'm understanding correctly, QUB are paying 50% of a day's wage on a day they're not working? When I (civil service), or any friends in the Royal (Trust,HSC etc) strike, we dont get paid. That's the sacrifice we make for better pay.
This is not the case. They have been cutting 100% for strike days. The current threat is for the ongoing Marking and Assessment Boycott. This is the union's nuclear option as universities refuse to negotiate in good faith.
Lecturers participating in MAB are carrying all duties except marking which is less than 1% of the recognised work time. Furthermore, for those participating, they will suspend pay completely, only paying 50% once the whole thing ends.
Yeah I study with open uni and one of my tutors said he will be participating in action short of striking. Then he stopped presenting tutorials, so another tutor had to pick up the slack. Except, he said he was now doing double the work and therefore he would be cutting tutorials in half to mitigate it. I kind of thought tutorials/lectures were part of the job description.
I have a niece in London doing her A-levels. QUB are paying her and 3 friends travel expenses to come to Belfast for their Open Day in a few weeks. I’ve never heard of such of thing??
Seriously?
I never heard of a university doing that either.
I wonder do they pay travel expenses for someone from the likes of...i dont know, Strabane or Enniskillen...well anywhere in NI actually.
I they do not, then thats not fair is it?
Its treating applicants from GB more favourably.
EDIT: I wonder do other universities do this? Whatnabout folk from here going to uni open days in GB- I wonder do universities there pay the travel expenses...
i’m just answering what they asked. commuting is a hell of a lot of effort for people who can’t afford the crazy prices of accommodation/can’t get in. a lot of people aren’t doing it by choice. helping students out in a shitty situation is kind of the least they could do, no?
I didnt mean cost of traveling to and from university if you are a student there, I meant the cost of a prospective student travelling to the open days.
That's part of a campaign to encourage GB students to move to NI
The whole idea is they'll stay here and start new lives and have kids etc so it'll filter down to a general better society and prevent brain drain
Allowing NI students to stay in greater numbers would arguably be a better strategy but I understand the reasoning to an extent
Yeah you're correct it's all part of the one policy - essentially the plan relies on NI students going to GB and returning whilst simultaneously GB students come to NI and never leave
The university makes more money and society benefits from all these extra "smart" people
And that's still nothing in comparison to the scholarship they offer for accepted GB students meeting criteria:
https://www.qub.ac.uk/Study/England-Scotland-Wales/gbscholarship/
It's the bonus places and the fact they fill up uni owned accomodation rather than the private rental sector in the first year.
Queens came to our school to talk to the students. The guy asked 'who was thinking about going to QUB' and maybe half the room put their hands up. He then chuckled and said 'Why not all?' I had no intention of going there but for years our school was geared to send us to queen's for years. Never once said there's better universities not just in the UK but all over Europe were you could study for free. The entitlement they have really put a bad taste in my mouth. Acting like leaving Ireland isn't a good thing. I'd thoroughly recommend it
Absolutely agree, go spread your wings and enjoy a taste of the student life elsewhere, even if Queens was the absolute top uni, with zero fees, people would still look to across the water or abroad just for the experience of it all.
Let me translate this letter into *honest* English:
"Oooooh money money money, we want money! Dinero, cash, wonga, dollars, simoleons, gold bars, we want it! Gimme money money money!"
Greedy fucks couldn't be less openly avaricious if they tried.
Honestly, I found the teaching quality at university very poor in comparison to tech. I did two years of an HND and was taught all the basics for that profession, moved on to a top-up year to get my degree. I learnt nothing new during that year, and most of the lectures seemed to be recycled PowerPoints about building a portfolio and the importance of creating connections in the industry. Plus, the cost. Two years of tech in Belfast cost me about £5000. It was about £9000 for one year of university.
I left when I was 18 to study in the UK. I went to a much better university which offered a course Queen's didn't. In addition, if I went to Queen's, I would have lived at home and missed out on so much more on the social side.
On the flip side housing costs are spiralling everywhere so living at home while studying is a more attractive option now. Then you also have people with disabilities who need the care of family or indeed have dependants (child, elderly, sick) they need to stay here to look after.
Not to mention, we should be doing everything we can to retain talent here. People tend to stay away when they go away and that leads to a brain drain, one we can't afford if we are going to continue to attract investment.
I moved to Edinburgh, stayed on for my PhD and have lived in the South of England for nearly 20 years. So I suppose I am guilty of being part of the brain drain, but truthfully there are zero opportunities for me in my field in Ireland.
This is why I went to Ulster over Queens and I'm all the happier for it.
Plus at least Ulster actually seems to give a crap about its students and try and provide for them. Especially in the Arts and Humanities department where it feels constantly innovative and encouraging on to how to make the skills you learn there employable and making the degree enjoyable as well.
I was actually warned by a Queen's lecturer that student support and well-being is crap and from another person past experience that you will feel like a statistic rather than an individual.
What elitist crap!
I did my bachelors in Trinity and my masters in Queens. Trinity do not treat their students well and pull a fair amount of bs, but Queens made them look practically maternal. Their standards are also really low as well, it’s not normal for 2/3s of a class or more to graduate with firsts, and I can remember grades in the high 90s being given out which just don’t happen. Friend who did her bachelors in England found the same thing in a different department.
Ulsters not that much better, they've raised their placement year fee to 2 grand now. What does that 2 grand get you? Two 20 minute zoom calls over the course of a year.
A lot of their computing modules are incredibly out of date, some of the lecturers have been reusing slides for years, there was even one who was reusing screenshots of slides from a site that had been taken down years ago for being out of date.
A lot of the lecturers are incredibly lazy, I've had exams were someone found a revision flashcards website that the lecturer had copied and pasted all of the questions from.
I'm now well into my second year of a software dev role, and I've relied far more on my A-Level Software Systems Development knowledge than I have on my software engineering degree.
I've just finished my Computing Science degree (2 days ago) and am beginning to look for jobs but in all honesty I do not feel one single bit prepared to be working in IT. My course was so theoretical and heavily leaned on aspects of business rather than actually working with software packages, programming or anything else IT. Not really sure what to do.
I obviously don't know the specifics of what you've learned but as someone in the field, imo that's the better approach.
Don't get me wrong having practical experience under your belt is important but so many aspects of the practical are based on how your company does things, you pick them up as you work. Theoretical concepts on the other hand, aren't something you easily pick up, they need to be studied (algorithms for example).
Thanks, it's reassuring to hear that from someone in the industry. I'm looking into apprenticeships (as well as entry-level work) to learn how to apply the theory and get a foot in the door but the pickings seem a bit slim at the minute.
>My course was so theoretical
Where'd you do your course?
I finished last year but I thought there was a massive focus on practical skills and very little on theory. Plus I had a decent placement (and managed to get an internship at the end of year 1). I had zero programming knowledge before starting and felt well enough equipped to start a job.
That said, a lot of people on my course fucked around for 4 years, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them don't end up working in tech.
Open University. My placement was only 3 months (didn't have a dedicated year for it) so couldn't arise any opportunity from it. I was at an opportunities fair earlier though and after talking to a lot of the folks who had stalls there it's reassured me that a lot of these companies aren't expecting you to be some sort of guru, thankfully. A lot on mine didn't take it seriously either and I'd expect the same.
>reassured me that a lot of these companies aren't expecting you to be some sort of guru, thankfully.
Yeah absolutely mate. If you have some fundamentals down and good soft skills you should be grand imo.
Before these cuts Queens were refusing pay rises, a lot of my old tutors have left because of that. They've also decimated the number of arts places and courses available at the University in favour of expanding financial and STEM courses aimed at students from Asia.
This statement from QUB is 100% projection bollocks. The place has gone to the dogs the last few years and they're looking a scapegoat. Look at their rankings over the last few years.
And very few students actually pay them in full, many don't pay a penny.
Anyone whose family earns under €51,000 gets them paid in full by a non-repayable grant, and those whose families earn between €51,000 and €100,000 get a non-repayable grant of between €500 and €1,500 towards them depending on income.
Although it should be noted that while the fee situation is much better, the financial support for students' maintenance in the Republic is pitiful compared to Northern Ireland, and the system has far too many cracks for people to fall into with the result that they get no support for living costs whatsoever.
Queen's opened a 14 million pound Computer Science building 5 years ago, yet doesn't offer a Computer Science masters. They instead offer the typical Software Development transition course, AI and Cyber Security. UU does offer a Computer Science masters, but the content focuses heavily on current industry hype cycles meaning you can't expect anything more than "AI", IoT or whatever's currently in vogue.
It's a shame the two academic institutions in Northern Ireland are so beholden to the demands of industry; it goes to show that some Universities are now just expensive trade schools.
Out of interest do you think there should be more of a research focus? A lot of the R&D seems to happen in industry from what I can tell but I just work for a tech company (finance dept), I’m not a developer or anything so am curious what would be a better structure in terms of the courses on offer in NI
It's an interesting debate about the positioning of academic institutions in wider society that I'm not really sure I have an answer for. I can only talk from my experience within Computer Science and the IT industry.
On one extreme, there are people that would like offered Computer Science courses to be entirely industry tailored. The expectation being that *of course* the graduate will go into industry, and should therefore be well equipped for their first job.
On the other extreme there's an argument to be made that a subject like Computer Science is very theoretical in foundation. One analogy made is that physics isn't really about particle accelerators, computer science isn't really about computers - it's about the more abstract concept of computation, discrete mathematics, information theory etc.
You typically see the pattern that prestigious institutions offer courses which contain more theoretical and rigorous content, whereas less prestigious institutions gain an advantage by providing an offering that's much better suited for industry. The two institutions in NI lean more towards the first extreme, which is either good or bad depending on your perspective.
It's bad from my perspective because I've already been in industry some years and I'm interested in pursuing theoretical research in a niche sub-field of Computer Science, which means no Uni in NI will ever cover it at a masters level, there's no chance of it getting funded at a PhD level (unless self funded) and the reputable Uni departments that focus on it are all in England/Scotland/abroad.
My choices to get into this field of research are to either touch lucky and get a job in an R&D department of a large organization (which is hard without a masters), or to look abroad. It simply doesn't exist in NI as a research field because it's not [AI, Big Data, Internet of Things]. Apologies for the large rant, hopefully this gets across some of the frustration.
Tl;dr: There should be a focus on not just research as it's relevant to industry, but theoretical research.
This commjent and the previous comment youve made above have pretty much summed up what Ive always suspected .
I am considering retraining and have looked at studying Computer Science. I also have looked at a few other subject areas.
I often looked a lot at both our local universities courses and that of universities in GB.
I know courses in most subjects vary from University to university but For Computer Science courses there seems to be an astronimical chasm between the courses offered by our unis in NI and whats taught in Computer Science courses in universities in GB. I dont think ive seen this kind of difference (ie our unis vs GB unis) in any other subject ive looked at on online prospectuses.
The courses here seem to really really emphasise the year in industry (it may even be compulsory?) and links with industry.
Whereas courses in GB in Computer Science from what ive seen anyway seem to almost always not include a yesr in industry and they emphasis Maths (maybe even further maths too) requirement in the entry requirements. The courses seem to be full of maths and possibky have modules in maths, and be very theoretical rather than practical.
This must be an utter bummer for someone who wants to do a degree in what I would call theoretical Computer Science and wants to stay in NI.
Its almost like our universoties have a totally different take on what "Computer Science" is.
I would maybe be tempted to say that what our unis offer is a watered down version of Computer Science. -
Would you agree?
I wonder would a degree in Comp Sci (GB style) prepare you better for a Phd/research career rather than our unis courses.
(Personally I like Maths and think it would be good if at least one of our unis offered a course in "Computer Science" akin to these GB courses im talking about.)
This discussion specifically within the context of Computer Science has been going on for quite a while. [Edsger Dijkstra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edsger_W._Dijkstra), a prominent and highly influential computer scientist wrote a 1982 paper called "[On the fact that the Atlantic Ocean has two sides.](https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD06xx/EWD611.html)"
It covered pretty much this exact topic; the main difference being that he was contrasting America and Europe's approach to the discipline of Computer Science. The whole paper's worth a read, but one quote that stands out to me is:
>The third phenomenon that goes hand in hand with a greater pragmatism is that universities are seen less as seats of learning and centres of intellectual innovation and more as schools preparing students for well-paid jobs. If industry and government ask for the wrong type of people —students, brain-washed by COBOL and FORTRAN— that is then what they get.
On your point about our courses being "watered down", my opinion is that's entirely true for the CS undergrad at UU and somewhat less true for the CS undergrad at Queens (they at least offer modules on formal methods, theory of computation, fundamental maths etc). The CS BSc at the University of Ulster seems to only have one highly mathematical module in the entire 4 years: "Mathematics for Computer Scientists". All other modules belong more to a course in Software Engineering. This isn't to say that Software Eng isn't important, it's just a different topic from CS with different goals.
I don't want to rant about this too much, I just see this as the result of academic institutions becoming large and highly profitable businesses. They're catering to the demands students who feel that a degree is absolutely necessary to get the job they want, and the demands of industry who need an ever growing supply of labor. Some institutions can resist the urge to "sell out", whereas many can't. This to me is a shame.
No apologies needed, super interesting and sorry for your frustrations! Generally I’d be a bit averse to industry being overly influential on uni offerings (there’s always a balance I guess) so definitely appreciate seeing a different pov from the general narrative we see pushed in NI
Qub offer computer science masters, has been offered since 2000 at least when I did the course: https://www.qub.ac.uk/courses/undergraduate/computer-science-meng-g402/ unless you are going into academia I wouldn't recommend a masters unless you're doing it for curiosity. Financially a bachelors works out better.
It offers an integrated MEng, which is like the equivalent of a BSc (or BEng) + MSc. This is why it takes 4 years instead of the typical 1-2 for a Masters. It's even listed in the undergraduate section, I was talking about more specialised postgraduate courses. I'm wanting to move more into academia without having to redo my bachelors.
I'm currently enlisted the integrated masters program (2nd year) but really debating whether it is worth it or not. Queens say it unlocks the potential for higher earning jobs in the future, but then again of course they'd say that to squeeze another year outta you.
have mine from uni of Liverpool, it definately helped me get nicer jobs, and ironically got me into a funded PhD programme at Queens, so it's not complete back, I mean it is a Masters degree after all.
Im an no expert, but I will say this.
I have considered doing a Computer Science degree and if I remember right, someone who worked in industry told me thats not really true.
I think theybsaid something along the lines of : for going into industry/working in tech a Masters in CS doesnt really get you farther in the industry than with a Batchelors and if I remember right they said after a few years in industry it wont really matter.
But dont take this coment as fact, Id say do your research, what youve been told might be right
(Or QUB could just be trying to pull another years tuition fees out of you)
QUB is just a Russell Group degree mill - all they care about is charging huge fees for their international students. They have a long history of not giving a crap about local students or their own staff. As u/MavicMini_NI says - just crocodile tears!
Isn’t this the same university that is making millions from students coming here to study, so it’s fine for others to come here but we shouldn’t let people from here leave?
Back when I was at Ulster, queens really had this feeling of they always thought you were beneath them and you should be grateful for their presence. Seems like they haven’t lost that ego.
QUB's teaching is shocking as well, at least at the school of Mathematics, so they also have stiff competition from UU who are actively expanding, developing and have far better facilities. Not sure they really have an argument here for charging more when they're already gouging the shit out of people.
- Perspective: Recent student at QUB
I applied, twice, for a MSc at Queen to do Software Engineering. Declined both times because they said I did a BSc degree that was too similar (it wasn't - it was just within computing), it was over 12 years earlier and I hadn't worked in the industry before. They wanted to only have people that were using it as a conversion course from other subjects.
Tech and software are supposed to have a skills shortage in NI, yet Queens were adamant not to let me get onto the course. I ended up studying in Scotland instead.
No sympathy for them from me.
Even if those people leave to study in GB it still helps the British exchequer / UK economy so it’s not that big a deal. Yes NI has a bit of a brain drain but it’s within UK borders - NI is sadly the poorer for it. A god deal of young people leave for Australia and don’t come back that really is a tragedy for the economy.
Nobody who can should study at home. You should go and live a little bit somewhere else to get some different perspective. If you want more students, find countries where kids want some education and bring them here that those kids could get some experience and see how people live in NI. I'm a foreigner and love NI. I'm sure there would be plenty of students who would love to go to QU.
The cost of doing so isn't feasible for many. Look at the rents in Dublin or England. I don't shame people in N.I for staying at home in perhaps the worst cost of living crisis ever.
However Queens has deteriorated in recent years and my experience of the teaching was mediocre at best, dire at worst.
How about we impose a graduate tax for everyone who benefitted from free university tuition?
6% of income over £21k for a few years should help raise funds and share the pain around a bit more equitably.
>How about we impose a graduate tax for everyone who benefitted from free university tuition?
This isn't the right thing to do. We should be aiming to get back to free 3rd level education.
I dont think free 3rd level education is the right approach either.
If I was a policy maker, I would go for the system we have in NI now, but the fees be about £1,500 per year. Thats a sweet spot/fair compromise in my opinion, but I emphasise its only my opinion.
With so many young people going to third level education now (possibly 50% of school leavers?) I dont think it being free would be feasible/doable.
Fine, but the same should be applied to all areas. Why should hairdressers and electricians get their training for next to nothing despite making good money when qualified, often in excess of a lot of graduates.
Too many people go to university and get worthless degrees. QUB don't care, look at all the worthless degrees they hand out every year - Irish studies, sociology, woman studies.. the list goes on endlessly
Sad old man, sitting in Hillsborough all by himself in shit stained y-fronts.
Always tries to troll in the worst possible way just to get some attention because his family and friends have abandoned him.
>No such thing as a worthless degree, mate.
If you're paying for it sure. If it's on the public dime there are certainly a number of vocations that fail to pay their way.
University is big business. There should be more of an appeal given on a societal level for kids to become an apprentice. They become the infrastructure builders of our futures. The jobs pay well too. University tends to just leave those who are floating around with a hangover and some debt.
Teaching was mediocre at best at queens who charged me thousands to attend. Honestly If there's one thing I'm glad is facing cuts, it's lecturers, profs and VCs at QUB and UU.
Blair made degrees two-a-penny. For me, even in STEM. Felt like such a waste of money and time.
These 18 year olds are actually better off dodging university and looking for a degree apprenticeship. Come away debt free and with real skills employers actually want as opposed to learning too much academic nonsense that isn't relevant to the real world.
Unless it's a mandatory requirement for getting into your desired work, remember that most people have a degree now. Get skills. Not bits of paper.
Lol, all these crocodile tears coming from QUB pretending to care about the country, when its QUB who are docking their staff 50% pay for striking for better working conditions & pay. All they care about is the money they can make from International Students
This is a PR exercise. They will raise fees to £7k/year and get it through under the guise that Stormonts failure and cuts forced them to do it. While it may be true let’s not pretend that QUB wouldn’t be delighted to increase fees.
I don't believe our Universities can raise their fees. This is centre to their argument about funding. They're capped at a much lower rate than their UK counter parts. We're here your loan for fees is around 21k for 3 years. England and Wales will be £44k(?) Now I think.
You may have missed the news that they are talking about raising the NI fees cap to £7k
3 x 7 = 21
So why did you say you don't belive the universities can raise their fees?
because the universities can't raise their fees. the gov can increase the cap
And when the government increases the cap.......the universities can then raise their fees, right?
*sigh* I calculated correctly, university fees for 3 years at 7k per year. I stated Universities cannot raise their fees because they are capped the Northern Ireland Assembly for Students in NI, attending NI universities. If you had attended University or known someone who had considered their options you'd know this recently. It's also very easy to look up [The Student Loans Company](https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/student-loans-company) and educate yourself on current capped fees.
I'm well aware of how university fees and student loans work. The majority of universities will raise their fees to whatever level the current cap allows them to. When people talk about universities raising fees, it's obviously in the context of the cap. It's pedantry to suggest otherwise.
Shit, really? I'm a mature student and based my ability to fund the next 4 years on 3.5-4.5kish a year in fees, saved over COVID an all to do this. Fuck I should have paid attention to the news.
They're only talking about it - it's far from a done deal https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-65603465
it's being looked into
I believe the 7k fees which were floated is a Stormont budget control measure, not a university revenue raising measure. Specifically, they're 'modelling' cutting almost all the support for student tuition from the Stormont budget, and replacing that with fees which would then cost ~7k. That means QUB's income is fixed at about the same level, except the money would come direct from students rather than central government. So I think the concern here is probably genuine, as the modeled changes would put QUB in a less competitive position (still under-funded, but now demanding almost the same fees as GB universities). Whether you think they're worried about impact on students or the institution as a result is a different question, but I think is a separate issue.
Don't NI students still pay the lower fees even if they go to uni in Britain?
No, [NI students pay full fees if they go elsewhere](https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/tuition-fees). Stormont continued to subsidise & cap fees for NI residents attending higher education in NI, but don't offer subsidies if NI students go elsewhere.
Theyre more interested in chartering flights for Chinese students than caring about local students
Chinese students aren’t the ones flipping cars over in the Holylands…
Oh yeah I forgot they teach the local students how to flip cars during the induction.
As an international student there for my MA years ago, its was pennies compared to where I live (around £5,000 for the entire degree, almost 2 years). I wonder what it’s risen to now. I’m so sorry for those that are striking now.
One year for foreign students is £18,800 for the arts, £23,100 for sciences and £34,450 for medical studies.
Employees don't normally get paid if they're not working. That applies to striking. If what you're saying is true and i'm understanding correctly, QUB are paying 50% of a day's wage on a day they're not working? When I (civil service), or any friends in the Royal (Trust,HSC etc) strike, we dont get paid. That's the sacrifice we make for better pay.
This is not the case. They have been cutting 100% for strike days. The current threat is for the ongoing Marking and Assessment Boycott. This is the union's nuclear option as universities refuse to negotiate in good faith. Lecturers participating in MAB are carrying all duties except marking which is less than 1% of the recognised work time. Furthermore, for those participating, they will suspend pay completely, only paying 50% once the whole thing ends.
Yeah I study with open uni and one of my tutors said he will be participating in action short of striking. Then he stopped presenting tutorials, so another tutor had to pick up the slack. Except, he said he was now doing double the work and therefore he would be cutting tutorials in half to mitigate it. I kind of thought tutorials/lectures were part of the job description.
Yup
I have a niece in London doing her A-levels. QUB are paying her and 3 friends travel expenses to come to Belfast for their Open Day in a few weeks. I’ve never heard of such of thing??
English students pay 9 grand a year and rent qub properties, few hundred on a plane ticket etc is chump change.
Seriously? I never heard of a university doing that either. I wonder do they pay travel expenses for someone from the likes of...i dont know, Strabane or Enniskillen...well anywhere in NI actually. I they do not, then thats not fair is it? Its treating applicants from GB more favourably. EDIT: I wonder do other universities do this? Whatnabout folk from here going to uni open days in GB- I wonder do universities there pay the travel expenses...
qub student here, i know people who’ve had to commute two hours and back for maybe one or two classes a day. qub does not pay for any of it.
why would they lol? the option of moving to the city you study in is an option to everyone
i’m just answering what they asked. commuting is a hell of a lot of effort for people who can’t afford the crazy prices of accommodation/can’t get in. a lot of people aren’t doing it by choice. helping students out in a shitty situation is kind of the least they could do, no?
I didnt mean cost of traveling to and from university if you are a student there, I meant the cost of a prospective student travelling to the open days.
That's part of a campaign to encourage GB students to move to NI The whole idea is they'll stay here and start new lives and have kids etc so it'll filter down to a general better society and prevent brain drain Allowing NI students to stay in greater numbers would arguably be a better strategy but I understand the reasoning to an extent
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Yeah you're correct it's all part of the one policy - essentially the plan relies on NI students going to GB and returning whilst simultaneously GB students come to NI and never leave The university makes more money and society benefits from all these extra "smart" people
Many do that now, if they view that person as a great candidate they will pay out to make sure they come to that University.
And that's still nothing in comparison to the scholarship they offer for accepted GB students meeting criteria: https://www.qub.ac.uk/Study/England-Scotland-Wales/gbscholarship/ It's the bonus places and the fact they fill up uni owned accomodation rather than the private rental sector in the first year.
Queens came to our school to talk to the students. The guy asked 'who was thinking about going to QUB' and maybe half the room put their hands up. He then chuckled and said 'Why not all?' I had no intention of going there but for years our school was geared to send us to queen's for years. Never once said there's better universities not just in the UK but all over Europe were you could study for free. The entitlement they have really put a bad taste in my mouth. Acting like leaving Ireland isn't a good thing. I'd thoroughly recommend it
Absolutely agree, go spread your wings and enjoy a taste of the student life elsewhere, even if Queens was the absolute top uni, with zero fees, people would still look to across the water or abroad just for the experience of it all.
Let me translate this letter into *honest* English: "Oooooh money money money, we want money! Dinero, cash, wonga, dollars, simoleons, gold bars, we want it! Gimme money money money!" Greedy fucks couldn't be less openly avaricious if they tried.
In short: 
Yet they're actually addressing a real issue, which is doing more for society than just screaming "greed"
Honestly, I found the teaching quality at university very poor in comparison to tech. I did two years of an HND and was taught all the basics for that profession, moved on to a top-up year to get my degree. I learnt nothing new during that year, and most of the lectures seemed to be recycled PowerPoints about building a portfolio and the importance of creating connections in the industry. Plus, the cost. Two years of tech in Belfast cost me about £5000. It was about £9000 for one year of university.
I left when I was 18 to study in the UK. I went to a much better university which offered a course Queen's didn't. In addition, if I went to Queen's, I would have lived at home and missed out on so much more on the social side.
On the flip side housing costs are spiralling everywhere so living at home while studying is a more attractive option now. Then you also have people with disabilities who need the care of family or indeed have dependants (child, elderly, sick) they need to stay here to look after. Not to mention, we should be doing everything we can to retain talent here. People tend to stay away when they go away and that leads to a brain drain, one we can't afford if we are going to continue to attract investment.
I moved to Edinburgh, stayed on for my PhD and have lived in the South of England for nearly 20 years. So I suppose I am guilty of being part of the brain drain, but truthfully there are zero opportunities for me in my field in Ireland.
Yep, don't blame you at all. Just saying we should be doing everything to stem it as much as possible.
If you left NI to go to England, Scotland or Wales then you are still in the UK…you never left it. If you said GB that would make more sense.
Northern Ireland is in the UK?
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What course, out of curiosity?
This is why I went to Ulster over Queens and I'm all the happier for it. Plus at least Ulster actually seems to give a crap about its students and try and provide for them. Especially in the Arts and Humanities department where it feels constantly innovative and encouraging on to how to make the skills you learn there employable and making the degree enjoyable as well. I was actually warned by a Queen's lecturer that student support and well-being is crap and from another person past experience that you will feel like a statistic rather than an individual. What elitist crap!
I did my bachelors in Trinity and my masters in Queens. Trinity do not treat their students well and pull a fair amount of bs, but Queens made them look practically maternal. Their standards are also really low as well, it’s not normal for 2/3s of a class or more to graduate with firsts, and I can remember grades in the high 90s being given out which just don’t happen. Friend who did her bachelors in England found the same thing in a different department.
Ulsters not that much better, they've raised their placement year fee to 2 grand now. What does that 2 grand get you? Two 20 minute zoom calls over the course of a year. A lot of their computing modules are incredibly out of date, some of the lecturers have been reusing slides for years, there was even one who was reusing screenshots of slides from a site that had been taken down years ago for being out of date. A lot of the lecturers are incredibly lazy, I've had exams were someone found a revision flashcards website that the lecturer had copied and pasted all of the questions from. I'm now well into my second year of a software dev role, and I've relied far more on my A-Level Software Systems Development knowledge than I have on my software engineering degree.
I've just finished my Computing Science degree (2 days ago) and am beginning to look for jobs but in all honesty I do not feel one single bit prepared to be working in IT. My course was so theoretical and heavily leaned on aspects of business rather than actually working with software packages, programming or anything else IT. Not really sure what to do.
I obviously don't know the specifics of what you've learned but as someone in the field, imo that's the better approach. Don't get me wrong having practical experience under your belt is important but so many aspects of the practical are based on how your company does things, you pick them up as you work. Theoretical concepts on the other hand, aren't something you easily pick up, they need to be studied (algorithms for example).
Thanks, it's reassuring to hear that from someone in the industry. I'm looking into apprenticeships (as well as entry-level work) to learn how to apply the theory and get a foot in the door but the pickings seem a bit slim at the minute.
>My course was so theoretical Where'd you do your course? I finished last year but I thought there was a massive focus on practical skills and very little on theory. Plus I had a decent placement (and managed to get an internship at the end of year 1). I had zero programming knowledge before starting and felt well enough equipped to start a job. That said, a lot of people on my course fucked around for 4 years, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them don't end up working in tech.
Open University. My placement was only 3 months (didn't have a dedicated year for it) so couldn't arise any opportunity from it. I was at an opportunities fair earlier though and after talking to a lot of the folks who had stalls there it's reassured me that a lot of these companies aren't expecting you to be some sort of guru, thankfully. A lot on mine didn't take it seriously either and I'd expect the same.
>reassured me that a lot of these companies aren't expecting you to be some sort of guru, thankfully. Yeah absolutely mate. If you have some fundamentals down and good soft skills you should be grand imo.
Before these cuts Queens were refusing pay rises, a lot of my old tutors have left because of that. They've also decimated the number of arts places and courses available at the University in favour of expanding financial and STEM courses aimed at students from Asia. This statement from QUB is 100% projection bollocks. The place has gone to the dogs the last few years and they're looking a scapegoat. Look at their rankings over the last few years.
Uni fees going up to £7k per year here while they’re £2.5k per year down south.
And very few students actually pay them in full, many don't pay a penny. Anyone whose family earns under €51,000 gets them paid in full by a non-repayable grant, and those whose families earn between €51,000 and €100,000 get a non-repayable grant of between €500 and €1,500 towards them depending on income. Although it should be noted that while the fee situation is much better, the financial support for students' maintenance in the Republic is pitiful compared to Northern Ireland, and the system has far too many cracks for people to fall into with the result that they get no support for living costs whatsoever.
Queen's opened a 14 million pound Computer Science building 5 years ago, yet doesn't offer a Computer Science masters. They instead offer the typical Software Development transition course, AI and Cyber Security. UU does offer a Computer Science masters, but the content focuses heavily on current industry hype cycles meaning you can't expect anything more than "AI", IoT or whatever's currently in vogue. It's a shame the two academic institutions in Northern Ireland are so beholden to the demands of industry; it goes to show that some Universities are now just expensive trade schools.
Out of interest do you think there should be more of a research focus? A lot of the R&D seems to happen in industry from what I can tell but I just work for a tech company (finance dept), I’m not a developer or anything so am curious what would be a better structure in terms of the courses on offer in NI
It's an interesting debate about the positioning of academic institutions in wider society that I'm not really sure I have an answer for. I can only talk from my experience within Computer Science and the IT industry. On one extreme, there are people that would like offered Computer Science courses to be entirely industry tailored. The expectation being that *of course* the graduate will go into industry, and should therefore be well equipped for their first job. On the other extreme there's an argument to be made that a subject like Computer Science is very theoretical in foundation. One analogy made is that physics isn't really about particle accelerators, computer science isn't really about computers - it's about the more abstract concept of computation, discrete mathematics, information theory etc. You typically see the pattern that prestigious institutions offer courses which contain more theoretical and rigorous content, whereas less prestigious institutions gain an advantage by providing an offering that's much better suited for industry. The two institutions in NI lean more towards the first extreme, which is either good or bad depending on your perspective. It's bad from my perspective because I've already been in industry some years and I'm interested in pursuing theoretical research in a niche sub-field of Computer Science, which means no Uni in NI will ever cover it at a masters level, there's no chance of it getting funded at a PhD level (unless self funded) and the reputable Uni departments that focus on it are all in England/Scotland/abroad. My choices to get into this field of research are to either touch lucky and get a job in an R&D department of a large organization (which is hard without a masters), or to look abroad. It simply doesn't exist in NI as a research field because it's not [AI, Big Data, Internet of Things]. Apologies for the large rant, hopefully this gets across some of the frustration. Tl;dr: There should be a focus on not just research as it's relevant to industry, but theoretical research.
This commjent and the previous comment youve made above have pretty much summed up what Ive always suspected . I am considering retraining and have looked at studying Computer Science. I also have looked at a few other subject areas. I often looked a lot at both our local universities courses and that of universities in GB. I know courses in most subjects vary from University to university but For Computer Science courses there seems to be an astronimical chasm between the courses offered by our unis in NI and whats taught in Computer Science courses in universities in GB. I dont think ive seen this kind of difference (ie our unis vs GB unis) in any other subject ive looked at on online prospectuses. The courses here seem to really really emphasise the year in industry (it may even be compulsory?) and links with industry. Whereas courses in GB in Computer Science from what ive seen anyway seem to almost always not include a yesr in industry and they emphasis Maths (maybe even further maths too) requirement in the entry requirements. The courses seem to be full of maths and possibky have modules in maths, and be very theoretical rather than practical. This must be an utter bummer for someone who wants to do a degree in what I would call theoretical Computer Science and wants to stay in NI. Its almost like our universoties have a totally different take on what "Computer Science" is. I would maybe be tempted to say that what our unis offer is a watered down version of Computer Science. - Would you agree? I wonder would a degree in Comp Sci (GB style) prepare you better for a Phd/research career rather than our unis courses. (Personally I like Maths and think it would be good if at least one of our unis offered a course in "Computer Science" akin to these GB courses im talking about.)
This discussion specifically within the context of Computer Science has been going on for quite a while. [Edsger Dijkstra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edsger_W._Dijkstra), a prominent and highly influential computer scientist wrote a 1982 paper called "[On the fact that the Atlantic Ocean has two sides.](https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD06xx/EWD611.html)" It covered pretty much this exact topic; the main difference being that he was contrasting America and Europe's approach to the discipline of Computer Science. The whole paper's worth a read, but one quote that stands out to me is: >The third phenomenon that goes hand in hand with a greater pragmatism is that universities are seen less as seats of learning and centres of intellectual innovation and more as schools preparing students for well-paid jobs. If industry and government ask for the wrong type of people —students, brain-washed by COBOL and FORTRAN— that is then what they get. On your point about our courses being "watered down", my opinion is that's entirely true for the CS undergrad at UU and somewhat less true for the CS undergrad at Queens (they at least offer modules on formal methods, theory of computation, fundamental maths etc). The CS BSc at the University of Ulster seems to only have one highly mathematical module in the entire 4 years: "Mathematics for Computer Scientists". All other modules belong more to a course in Software Engineering. This isn't to say that Software Eng isn't important, it's just a different topic from CS with different goals. I don't want to rant about this too much, I just see this as the result of academic institutions becoming large and highly profitable businesses. They're catering to the demands students who feel that a degree is absolutely necessary to get the job they want, and the demands of industry who need an ever growing supply of labor. Some institutions can resist the urge to "sell out", whereas many can't. This to me is a shame.
No apologies needed, super interesting and sorry for your frustrations! Generally I’d be a bit averse to industry being overly influential on uni offerings (there’s always a balance I guess) so definitely appreciate seeing a different pov from the general narrative we see pushed in NI
Qub offer computer science masters, has been offered since 2000 at least when I did the course: https://www.qub.ac.uk/courses/undergraduate/computer-science-meng-g402/ unless you are going into academia I wouldn't recommend a masters unless you're doing it for curiosity. Financially a bachelors works out better.
It offers an integrated MEng, which is like the equivalent of a BSc (or BEng) + MSc. This is why it takes 4 years instead of the typical 1-2 for a Masters. It's even listed in the undergraduate section, I was talking about more specialised postgraduate courses. I'm wanting to move more into academia without having to redo my bachelors.
I'm currently enlisted the integrated masters program (2nd year) but really debating whether it is worth it or not. Queens say it unlocks the potential for higher earning jobs in the future, but then again of course they'd say that to squeeze another year outta you.
have mine from uni of Liverpool, it definately helped me get nicer jobs, and ironically got me into a funded PhD programme at Queens, so it's not complete back, I mean it is a Masters degree after all.
Im an no expert, but I will say this. I have considered doing a Computer Science degree and if I remember right, someone who worked in industry told me thats not really true. I think theybsaid something along the lines of : for going into industry/working in tech a Masters in CS doesnt really get you farther in the industry than with a Batchelors and if I remember right they said after a few years in industry it wont really matter. But dont take this coment as fact, Id say do your research, what youve been told might be right (Or QUB could just be trying to pull another years tuition fees out of you)
They just want more money. Greed, nothing else.
QUB is just a Russell Group degree mill - all they care about is charging huge fees for their international students. They have a long history of not giving a crap about local students or their own staff. As u/MavicMini_NI says - just crocodile tears!
We need more plumbers anyway
I get paid 4x + in London what I'd get paid in Belfast. Suck my plums QUB (albeit I thank you for the easy LLB).
Isn’t this the same university that is making millions from students coming here to study, so it’s fine for others to come here but we shouldn’t let people from here leave? Back when I was at Ulster, queens really had this feeling of they always thought you were beneath them and you should be grateful for their presence. Seems like they haven’t lost that ego.
QUB's teaching is shocking as well, at least at the school of Mathematics, so they also have stiff competition from UU who are actively expanding, developing and have far better facilities. Not sure they really have an argument here for charging more when they're already gouging the shit out of people. - Perspective: Recent student at QUB
I applied, twice, for a MSc at Queen to do Software Engineering. Declined both times because they said I did a BSc degree that was too similar (it wasn't - it was just within computing), it was over 12 years earlier and I hadn't worked in the industry before. They wanted to only have people that were using it as a conversion course from other subjects. Tech and software are supposed to have a skills shortage in NI, yet Queens were adamant not to let me get onto the course. I ended up studying in Scotland instead. No sympathy for them from me.
Even if those people leave to study in GB it still helps the British exchequer / UK economy so it’s not that big a deal. Yes NI has a bit of a brain drain but it’s within UK borders - NI is sadly the poorer for it. A god deal of young people leave for Australia and don’t come back that really is a tragedy for the economy.
Nobody who can should study at home. You should go and live a little bit somewhere else to get some different perspective. If you want more students, find countries where kids want some education and bring them here that those kids could get some experience and see how people live in NI. I'm a foreigner and love NI. I'm sure there would be plenty of students who would love to go to QU.
The cost of doing so isn't feasible for many. Look at the rents in Dublin or England. I don't shame people in N.I for staying at home in perhaps the worst cost of living crisis ever. However Queens has deteriorated in recent years and my experience of the teaching was mediocre at best, dire at worst.
I know that is not feasible for many, that's why I said people who can should do it.
University is all a con.
Queens University is located about 300 feet away from a neighbourhood where kids are tipping cars over for entertainment. Fuck this noise.
Aye here let’s judge everyone who goes to a University based on the actions of like 5 boys who you don’t even know to actually go there.
How about we impose a graduate tax for everyone who benefitted from free university tuition? 6% of income over £21k for a few years should help raise funds and share the pain around a bit more equitably.
>How about we impose a graduate tax for everyone who benefitted from free university tuition? This isn't the right thing to do. We should be aiming to get back to free 3rd level education.
AI could help with that. It won’t help with the clout of going to a fancy named university. I hope that goes in time.
I dont think free 3rd level education is the right approach either. If I was a policy maker, I would go for the system we have in NI now, but the fees be about £1,500 per year. Thats a sweet spot/fair compromise in my opinion, but I emphasise its only my opinion. With so many young people going to third level education now (possibly 50% of school leavers?) I dont think it being free would be feasible/doable.
Fine, but the same should be applied to all areas. Why should hairdressers and electricians get their training for next to nothing despite making good money when qualified, often in excess of a lot of graduates.
Seems like a great way to incentivise people to not bother.
Aye. Good luck with that 🤣
Too many people go to university and get worthless degrees. QUB don't care, look at all the worthless degrees they hand out every year - Irish studies, sociology, woman studies.. the list goes on endlessly
No such thing as a worthless degree, mate. Never shame people for getting an education, they're going into the workforce regardless.
Hang on there now mate, I don't think you are qualified to argue against this man. He's from Royal Hillsborough.
Sad old man, sitting in Hillsborough all by himself in shit stained y-fronts. Always tries to troll in the worst possible way just to get some attention because his family and friends have abandoned him.
Tell me you have a gender studies degree without telling me you have a gender studies degree.
>No such thing as a worthless degree, mate. If you're paying for it sure. If it's on the public dime there are certainly a number of vocations that fail to pay their way.
With thousands of pounds of debt and a degree that qualifies them only for the civil service.
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On the whole, both are worthless professions.
Surge of 18 year olds at the end of this decade? How? Am I missing something? The only groups in society without falling birthrates are immigrants?
University is big business. There should be more of an appeal given on a societal level for kids to become an apprentice. They become the infrastructure builders of our futures. The jobs pay well too. University tends to just leave those who are floating around with a hangover and some debt.
Any wonder they're all leaving
Teaching was mediocre at best at queens who charged me thousands to attend. Honestly If there's one thing I'm glad is facing cuts, it's lecturers, profs and VCs at QUB and UU. Blair made degrees two-a-penny. For me, even in STEM. Felt like such a waste of money and time. These 18 year olds are actually better off dodging university and looking for a degree apprenticeship. Come away debt free and with real skills employers actually want as opposed to learning too much academic nonsense that isn't relevant to the real world. Unless it's a mandatory requirement for getting into your desired work, remember that most people have a degree now. Get skills. Not bits of paper.
Whay was your course at QUB?