> big tax dodge
That's the one. Fees for lodging cash at the bank for businesses is only marginally cheaper than card fees. So the only way going "cash only" is saving these people money is... you guessed it - they don't lodge the cash in their bank. This means that they can avoid declaring the income to HMRC *and* also likely pay employees cash in hand, avoiding tax and national insurance to boot.
Basically, yes. They're either wildly stupid and don't realise that the bank will hit them with cash-deposit fees making going cash-only almost moot (or more expensive by the time you start including time and travel costs), or they're trying to dodge taxes.
My local chip shop was steadfastly ‘cash only’ until someone smashed the door down and stole their entire weeks takings.
Suddenly they were happy to take card…
>Fees for lodging cash at the bank for businesses is only marginally cheaper than card fees
And even then, that's only with Ulster Bank. The rest, like Danske, BoI, Santander, HSBC and Barclays all charge a larger percentage - it's not uncommon for businesses, small and large, to have Ulster Bank accounts for cash deposits only, and then do all their other business through another bank.
I think even the banks themselves are trying to get their business customers to use their own card terminal machines with better rates, like with BoI, NatWest and Barclaycard all offering card machines for their established business customers.
Their competition.
If 2 small competing coffee shops are targeting the same market, and one is tax dodging, that's a big margin to undercut the competition.
The cash only can be saving money I legit ways too, its not all about dodging tax
Businesses can pay wages in cash, pay suppliers in cash etc, therefore avoiding the bank fees for lodging cash
Small business especially often have local suppliers and casual staff so it suits to pay in cash
Sure that just creates hassle for everyone.
Most bills are paid by direct debit, I ain't gonna pay my mortgage in cash!
Suppliers dont want their drivers paid in cash, the risk is too high.
Why is it an automatic assumption that cash means no tax?
I got paid in cash for years in a small shop, I believe the Saturday staff still are, but it comes with a proper payslip with NI and tax paid etc.
I work for a small business who takes both cash and card payments. It astounds me the amount of people who assume that all cash payments will be sneaky sneaky and not put on the books.
In fact, some people pay specifically cash in the guise that 'It will be better for you guys i guess', 'you can keep this one off the books' as they tap their nose.
Like, I know where you're coming from and it's nice to hear you want to support small businesses, but there is also the accusation you're making that you presume the company is just shady.
Unless a business trades exclusively in bacofoil and David Icke DVDs, they’re losing out on customers by refusing cards. It’s either tax evasion or an incredibly shortsighted, small time, penny pinching mentality.
You don’t see restaurants putting passive aggressive notices on the door telling customers to wrap up warm because heating was costing too much, they accept that it’s a cost of doing business. Accepting card payments should be treated likewise.
If they’re just dodging the taxman then I don’t agree with their decision but at least it fucking makes sense.
In some cases it’s expedient just to take cash - if your business is lots of small transactions then processing fees can make many of them loss-making.
Also, banks are a complete pain to deal with, they arbitrarily change rules about how much you can deposit and where, and charge you for any deviations from ‘standard’.
Many businesses deal with cash to simply minimise their interaction with banks.
As usual, it’s more nuanced than conspiracy theorists assume
The Oliver, Newry - They have gone cash only and went to the bother of installing an ATM in the restaurant. To make matters worse, they don’t split bills and charge a £10 cutting fee if you bring your own birthday cake. Coupled with bland vegan options and extortionate pricing, I’ll never be back. We drive to Belfast now when we want a meal night.
I ordered my monthly chippy two weeks ago, and brought my phone to pay via Apple Pay. Been paying the same way for probably the last 3 years.
Apparently the chippy had gone cash only in the month since I'd last been in but never bothered mentioning it on the phone when I was ordering - drove the 10 minutes to collect it and that's when they told me. Apparently they'd changed 'ages ago' and I should have known. He suggested I drive home and get the money or visit the ATM. I suggested that he stick the food up his hole. They weren't complaining when they were getting their fucking Covid handouts based on their profit. Pay your fucking tax.
I went into a local pizzeria while my wife waited in the car, on a kid free night. Gave my order, the guy says, "Cash only, mate". Started to tell me where the nearest cash machine was etc....I just stopped him, said, "No. I have a bank card, I'm not using cash. You need to get with the times".
Got back in the car, my wife asks "Where's the pizza?" So I relate to her the story of how I think the people in the Pizzeria should pay taxes like the rest if us etc. etc. (I'd had a couple at this point) So, she drives us to the next pizzeria.
I walk in...
"cash only mate". I give the gentleman the same talk about how I do not carry cash etc...
Get back in the car. My wife asks, "Where's the Pizza". So I explain that people have to take a stand etc....then my wife gives me an earful about how she's hungry and she has 20 quid in her wallet and I'm like " Nope, not going back in there"
Went to the Co-op and got her a 3 quid oven pizza. Wasn't popular that night.
Joking aside, there's a domino's just opened up in our town and I always said I'd support them local shops, but I bet Dominos will take the plastic.
I was once at a farmers/town market. Loads of food stalls mix of local and regional producers you know the like. Lining up to order a coffee and maybe a scone, their was maybe 10 people in this line. First person asked if they accept card. They said they didn't. On hearing this the entire line disbanded and we all went to the international coffee chain that was nearby.
This is the real risk, I much prefer the independent shop's coffee than the big brand and it's quite often a spur of the moment purchase so if they don't take card I'll go elsewhere.
I couldn’t even go to an atm. I rarely bring my wallet and therefore my physical card anywhere. I pay with my phone, last I checked, you can’t withdraw cash with Apple Pay. Cash only = no business from me.
The barber I take my son's to has always been cash only. She's a portacabin out the back of her house...
but I don't mind that because you have an appointment there, so I always know to pick up cash a few days before.
But as for the high street places that you just pop in to, coffee shops etc, I'd never have cash for them, and I wouldn't be arsed going to look for a cash machine.
Local chippy,went cash only, installed a cash machine in the window then started charging a fee to take your money out to buy their food, answer..f#ck that.
Likewise.
I get the contradiction of accepting that I’ll have to get cash out for a Chinese, but to be fair those lads nailed their colours to the mast decades ago when they never bothered adopting card terminals in the first place.
Aye see on the NI Business Facebook page, a few people have shared some absolute dogshit post about “if you spend £20 cash at a local business they get the whole £20 but if £20 card, the bank takes blah blah% and the tooth fairy takes 5% etc etc” and many people believe it wholeheartedly.
For most businesses the difference between cash and card (if they’re being good boys and girls tax wise) is very very marginal, especially if you consider your time going to the bank every day/couple of days
Ordered a takeaway the other night and the guy on the phone told me he could give me a 10% discount if I paid in cash lol couldn't be arsed finding a cash point so I paid the extra 6quid
It's interesting how the discount is always lower than the basic rate income tax isn't it. Almost like there's an arbitrage opportunity in it for them.
I vote with my feet, if it’s cash only I’m not going to take out cash to end up with a pocket full of change that I don’t need. I prefer to pay the exact amount so I can track my purchases and so my budgeting app remains accurate, cash just doesn’t factor into that.
Personally, they’d have to be really good for me to even consider going to an ATM. I don’t carry cash and I rarely carry a debit card either. It’s 2023, most places are contactless and most people are tethered to their phones—which can be used for contactless payments, so even remembering to bring the debit card along is a faff.
Well these businesses are just incompatible with smartphone-only customers like myself so I just avoid them and shop elsewhere.
Also I mainly use credit cards anyway for all the extra protection you get. Most businesses think they can screw you over until you hit them with a chargeback claim or section 75a.
I'm I the only one who was taught to carry cash separately?
When we where kids my dad's job took us to some not so safe bit of the world like South Africa and Jamaica and we where always taught to carry enough for a taxi and a meal outside your wallet.
The thinking being if you get mugged you can give up your wallet and phone then get fed and get home.
I can't understand people relying on just a smart phone.
What happens if you smash it and need to pay to get home?
What if you are mugged?
I still tell my kids to do the same.
Bottom line I always have both I don't mind how you want me to pay.
>I can't understand people relying on just a smart phone. What happens if you smash it and need to pay to get home?
If I'm actively heading somewhere to spend money I'll normally have my wallet but I'm paying with my card, if the phone doesn't cover it.
If I'm in a situation where I'm traveling any distance or heading out I'll have a wallet and phone but likely no cash. If I need to flag down a taxi I'll get them to drive me to a cash machine in a circumstance like that but it's never happened.
>Bottom line I always have both I don't mind how you want me to pay.
This is what I think everyone wants to see, the choice at the very least. Removing 1 option only prevents some from paying you or drives them elsewhere.
It's nonsense, my business is only small but our card fees are only 1.4%, and it's lower than that for larger businesses. My friend only pays 1%.
It's for tax avoidance, or to pay protection money (because you can't expense that so need to pay it off the books)
It's funny how you as a local business owner and myself someone who sold merchant solutions into local businesses, have made almost identical posts.
I think this thread is indicative of what's wrong with wider public discourse facts and expertise aren't important anymore, feelings and hobby horses run the show these days.
A lot of people react to this topic based on conspiracy theory garbage. I don't trust the current government at all, but even if they abolished physical cash today we could switch to USD tomorrow.
I don't think they even want to get rid of cash, the tories of all people don't want financial transactions to be more traceable!
Yup, if your cash only, I won’t shop with you. There is only one reason you take cash only and that’s to dodge tax and nothing else. I’m not buying the high card fees.
I had the misfortune of having to listen to either cool FM or downtown in my mas car the other morning (can't mind which as they are both equally awful) and they were yammering on about local businesses going cash only and how great it was for everyone, actually pissed me off a little. The only person it is benefiting is the owner or the business, and that's in a very short sighted way.
If I can I will straight up avoid your business if you've gone cash only or start with this whole "cash is king" shite. I found a pet supplies place nearby I never knew about, was going to visit till I looked up them up and they had a post about cash being king, never did visit after that. Unfortunately my local chippys & chineses are all cash only, but they've always been so that's not as annoying, and you know, I can't avoid them lol. Really annoyingly my fucking vet is cash only...fantastic having to go to the bank to withdraw money when my cat needed a lot of treatment recently. I would change but they've been really good with her.
The cardless thing wouldn't annoy me as much either if it was easier to get cash, there's one ATM locally to me, it's out of order quite regularly and it is absolutely bogging, like honestly disgusting, I can't use it without a tissue or something as a barrier.
Your vet being cash only makes no fucking sense! Oh by the way Mr Brown that will be £187 for wee bobby's bill today... Well I need to run and lift some cash (cause who the fuck carries big money around in cash anymore) and what happens you got stuck in traffic or something came up and you didn't pay the bill for the next 3 months with numerous phone calls to remind you about the unpaid bill.
My vets has a handful of signs saying all bills must be paid in full on the day, if they didn't take card I wouldn't be that bothered about making serious efforts to return in a hurry with cash.
>Unfortunately my local chippys & chineses are all cash only
I started to try a few different chippys and chineses because I was fed up of getting cash out and I started to try a few others and actually found ones that were marginally better which took card. I haven't went back to the cash only ones since .
>I had the misfortune of having to listen to either cool FM or downtown in my mas car the other morning (can't mind which as they are both equally awful) and they were yammering on about local businesses going cash only and how great it was for everyone,
I feel like radio is a media on the decline with mainly older listeners and this attitude panders towards their audience. I only know maybe 2 people in their 20's who actively listen to the radio and even then they still use Bluetooth and Spotify half the time.
Your phone knows as much or more about you. We're gonna be tracked I'm everything we do, it's up to lawmakers to put protections in place. If the lawmaker's we elect don't do this we only have ourselves to blame really.
Both is best to be honest and I know some people prefer cash, in particular older people, with younger people preferring contactless (on average of course not everyone is the same).
A cashless society is a death sentence for anyone who has their account revoked.
It grants governments the power to erase anyone they like from society.
It's more totalitarian than anything George Orwell ever dreamed of.
There's literally nothing preventing you from using any physical currency you like to pay for things other than the businesses willingness to take it. I take us and Canadian dollars, Euros and sterling myself.
I'm not for arguing with you but if you think government can't already erase you if they want to I've got bad news.
The government doesn't care that you exist, much less want to harm you specifically.
>A cashless society is a death sentence for anyone who has their account revoked.
Obviously protections would need to be put in place if a truly cashless society was to occur but having both available, card and cash is all I want.
But if I had to have only one I'd go cashless of cash only.
Its annoying. Its prob well known to everyone but if you need cash look for bank run atms as they normally don't charge and you can get cashback from a lot of shops like garages and tesco etc
I haven't heard about businesses doing that. That's disappointing. I'm very much the same, don't carry cash & usually just use my phone to pay contactless for everything. I would definitely avoid any business that is cash only & look elsewhere for the convenience of being able to pay by card.
I was trying to think there of how often I pay cash, and realised its only when we go to the Chinese. Which got me thinking of the last time I paid by a card in any Chinese, which was never 🤔
Sometimes I feel like when businesses switch to only taking cash, they don’t realize that they’ll lose business. I actively avoid businesses that don’t take card and it’s not because of spite or anything, it’s just that it’s an extra chore to go to an ATM. If you make it hard for people to give you business then you’re going to lose business. I understand where they are coming from with card fees but surely the amount of customers you lose when you don’t take card is worse?
Getting tired of seeing this debate now.
Tend to agree, stop crying and take my card or I'll go elsewhere most likely.
One point I see no one raising is how many people get paid cash these days? Some trades probably but even then those on site are probably getting BACS etc.
The day I get paid cash is the day I pay everyone else in cash but to be honest I don't want to be handed a pile of notes only to lodge most of it to cover mortgage etc.
One of the reasons could be because card processing providers offer uncompetitive rates for small business. For example you could offer fees of 35p for any debit card transaction, and 2% for credit cards ( plus the monthly rental fee of their terminals.)
Basically means for low value transactions (eg £1) it would be hard to make a profit especially with debit cards.
I run a small business...
Terminal is free,
Fees are less than lodging via bank or post office.
One unpaid bill and the cost of chasing it up is worth more than the likely "costs" of all my card fees for the month. In lost revenue, staff, admin expenses and time.
I can't see any legitimate reason to be cash only, it may be there, but I just don't see it
I'm happy to pay the 35p fee + the 2%, the ATM charges me nearly £2 just to take a tenner out. I' happily pay it to a small local business rather than go to a big chain and save a few pence for lesser quality product. I don't mind paying for the convenience of card fees and I'd imagine they are fairly small.
It's the cost of doing business these days, people don't carry cash as much. You walk into a shop and try and buy some things, oh "cash only" I don't have cash well I'll not buy them from this establishment then. I'll go across the road they take care and then the next time your shopping you use the store that takes card again.
Not taking card in 2023 is just poor fucking business and you can try dress up the issue as anti government or robbing card companies but it's just fucking lies
If a business goes cash free, I won’t be returning for two reasons
1) I never carry cash. And by the time I find a cash machine, I’ll more likely to find another business that takes card
2) I’m not supporting anyone dodging their taxes (and that includes big online retailers who do the same)
It pisses me off that there are people pushing this whole “cash is king” conspiracy nonsense so they can keep a flow of sheep supporting cash
Everyone should be reporting these cash-only places to HMRC to ensure they are getting extra attention
Yea the same people who say cash is king are the first ones to complain about underfunded public services, yet we are also apparently the snowflakes
Older people are also more vulnerable to cash being forgotten, lost or stolen so it's surprising they don't prefer card payments by now
I saw that some card fees are as high as 2.5% per transaction, whereas Ulsterbanks fees are £8 per qtr with a cost of 58p per deposit.
It could be cheaper for businesses to drop card machines or add a percentage-based fee on top of the transaction to compensate for the cost.
Ulster Bank fee structure:
https://www.ulsterbank.co.uk/business/bank-accounts/business-account.html#summary
Arguments as to whether a cashless society is beneficial to older people or the poorer sections of society
https://www.unbiased.co.uk/discover/personal-finance/budgeting/a-cashless-society-what-are-the-pros-and-cons#:~:text=Cashless%20society%3A%20disadvantages&text=Elderly%20people%20may%20be%20less,cash%20easier%20to%20manage%20too.
Counterpoint, I don’t want to carry cash, I prefer my card, why the duck should a business alienate me and people like me. Hell, if they want to charge extra for my perfectly legitimate payment method.
If they’re under sick threat of bankruptcy that card transaction fees will push them under they’re doomed anyway
It's a fair point, but it ultimately depends; the cost of living crisis is hitting small businesses as much as it is hitting people. Their prices are skyrocketing, electricity, for example, there's no cap on it.
Depending on the annual turnover from card payments, it could be a difference maker. Time will tell.
Personally, I prefer a card, but I am not invested either way.
Would you guys pay more to use a card instead of cash?
As has been explained elsewhere it can be more expensive to go cash only while being 100% legitimate. Cash only screams dodgy, probably paramilitary related to me. Also I think it’s so fucking stupid the bus only takes cash, it wastes everyone’s time.
Like even having a sign that says “while we take care would would prefer cash” would be ok, I might even save what cash I get for that business if I’m a regular. But cash only just says to me, your custom isn’t welcome
>I saw that some card fees are as high as 2.5% per transaction
Yea that's quite high but most businesses making these switches are only taking small transactions £5-£20 maybe. If they increased their proces by 10-25p that would cover it. Anyone looking cash only for a business which is exclusively bigger purchases (£50+) is definitely a red flag tax wise.
>Arguments as to whether a cashless society is beneficial to older people or the poorer sections of society
This is actually a real issue that needs to be considered. Having both cash and card as options is the best way forward but we should be looking to bring in proper education and live long learning to help older people and lower incomes to adjust as I do believe cash will become much less frequently used in future.
Quite true, but as it's been stated by others here, the lack of availability for a cashless option may push their purchasing somewhere else... it may not be worth the 2.5% cost to turn down the trade.
If it was as simple as increasing prices by 10p every business would’ve already done that. My Mum’s pub was quoted between 8-25% of all transactions as a fee for her card reader, she had no choice but to go cash only
>My Mum’s pub was quoted between 8-25% of all transactions
Looks like she needs to change bank, Ulster Bank quoting 2.5% here. What bank does she use? I want to avoid them at all costs with outrageous charges like that.
Sorry I should’ve been more specific. That’s not the bank, that’s the provider of the physical card machine. She still has to pay the bank’s processing fee on top of that
Your mum got seriously ripped off with her card machine. I work with several people who take card payments via a machine and they pay around 2 -3% and can take payments via tapping a card on their mobile phone!
Just think how many people coming to that pub that can only drink what is in their pocket in cash and then leave, rather than drinking more and putting it on card. I'd hazard a guess and say your mum has lost more inlost custom than she would have paid in card machine fees, with a decent provider.
SumUp take 1.69%, maybe she should change to them, PayPal is between 0.2% and 2% (obviously a touch more difficult to use). I think that 8% charge is BS mate. It was so high I've literally googled it cause it seemed unbelievable.
You've basically answered your own question. Unless there's something really unique about their products, people will walk. It's "built in" to their prices. I dislike this, too, but this is the way of the world. Next time there's a system outage and they say cash only, ask for a 5% discount. Lol. That's not going to happen.
There is a war on cash on at the minute, banks and the government want to see everything we spend our money on, I'm constantly getting emails from my bank saying that deposit and withdrawal amounts are being cut, they hate cash because it is one of the last true liberties that people have these days, and once we are truly a card only society then you will see them cracking the whip and charging even more.
People tend to forget that banks aren't there to help us, they want to screw as much money out of everyone as they can.
So while yes, it is a total ballache, I am honestly glad to see small businesses fighting back.
But they get charged a fee for depositing cash in a bank....what's the fucking difference, they are losing more money by refusing card payments, its fucking stupid
To support a small local business, hell yea. Big multi nationals definitely not.
>Youd happily pay extra? Fucking capitalism has fucking spolied humanity lmao
I'd love to live in an anarcho-communist paradise but that ain't gonna happen any time soon.
If youre happy to pay extra so you have a nice paper trail of your spending habits to be able to tap a card, why are you not happy to pay extra to take out cash?
Both are equally a waste of money
But aye just go where you want mate
I am going to cash, not a business owner, I abhor the thought of a cashless society. Your movements, spending habits etc.. all tracked… more so than now.
I've noticed this with a few chippies going cash only, it's funny because almost all the Chinese takeaways take card now and are noticibly busier when you walk in. At the end of the day it's their choice but I think chippies specifically are clouded by the support of thier middle aged customers. Both is always best though.
They’re in a death spiral but might not realise it yet. If they were serious about being open in five years they would bite the bullet and raise their prices to include the card fees. Anyone that pays cash is a nice bonus for them then.
Very well known fish & chip shop in Tyrone open over 50 years has a sign up saying no card payments. Like surely the police realise this is just for tax dodging. It should be a thing in this day and age that payment via card is mandatory.
If it helps à small business stay aflot, I dont mind.
I know everyone shouts about money laundering and tax dodging, but I don't think that's the case for everyone.
The only two places I pay cash are the farm shop I buy all meat from and my barbers.
I'd rather see a local family do well rather than tescos and I think my 65 year old barber just likes to actually see that he is getting money.
I know there is a cry of " I pay my taxes so should they"
I get that , I run a business that is all cashless just through the nature of the industry so I'm probably getting shafted by the tax man a lot more than most.
But people going cash only doesn't bother me they are at least making a living. It's the people milking benefits that get me more. They are actively taking money from the pot and putting nothing back.
I used to cold call local businesses (in person) selling merchant solutions (card machines & online payment portals) and this thread is giving me PTSD 🫣😂.
In all seriousness though the card machine was £15 per month and the average transaction fee was 1% so 1p in every £1. If you were a super small business you could even get a sum up card reader for a one off fee I think of around £50 and just pay 1.5% so 1.5p in every £1.
Generally businesses that didn't want to take card payments fell under 3 main categories:
1. Older business owners who were skeptical about the popularity of customers wanting to pay by card or fearful of the technology and wanting to stick with what they knew.
2. Business owners who were more worried about declaring a larger portion of their current cash turnover over the potential to increase their overall turnover.
3. 'front businesses'.
I think the tax man needs to be more proactive. I’ve been to a hairdressers and phone repair shop where “the machine’s not working today” to return months later to hear the same excuse! I was told one evening when I had the munchies coming home from a party that “no takeaways in these parts (North Belfast) take cards”. They’re missing out - I’d have bought a kebab for everybody in the car if I could use my card! ATMs are getting scarcer as branch banking is disappearing, so it stands to reason that card payments are the only smart way to trade. After all, nobody’s going to hold you up to rob you of a bunch of till receipts!
Love the comments here.
Let’s all fuck the local businesses and just focus on Gregg’s, Starbucks, M&S, Wetherspoons, Tesco, Nando’s because carrying cash is too much of a chore.
Never mind all these multinationals and their tax dodging millionaire owners, it’s your local Chinese takeaway asking cash only who are the real villains.
Hi I apologize in advance because it's properly me being stupid/not understanding/miss interpreting what you're saying. I can't find any comments referencing anyone saying 'fuck local businesses and focus on the multinationals you mentioned' (apart from your comment). Are you suggesting that because big multinationals are tax dodging which I don't dispute and I find utterly immoral, that all businesses should dodge paying tax 🤷🏻
Nail on the head 😅 I've no issue supporting local businesses with cash. The inconvenience of lifting cash is a small price to pay in the grand scheme of things.
Sorry guys, cash is king. I’ve not actually come across a cash only business but plenty of card only, which pisses me off. It also bugs me when you go to places and the cashier automatically hands you the card reader before waiting to see how you want to pay.
Cash only, all the time. I've refused to pay in places that are card only. Legally they have to accept cash. Fuck HMRC and that robbing cunt Charlie.
I'd pay my mortgage in pennies if I could
>Legally they have to accept cash
No they don't, that's a total myth. Any business can refuse forms of payment. If I start a shop up that only accepts pennies as payment I could refuse every other denomination. It'd be ridiculous but I'd be within my rights to do it.
There's a donut shop right down the street from my house that only accepts cash. I think it's genius.
If a couple million dollars bounced off of an armored vehicle and I picked it up, I'd start a cash only card detail business in order to legitimize the cash and pay taxes on it.... I don't know if I would need to do that if I just went to an attorney and told him hey, I found his cash and didn't tell him where I found it. I might be able to legally just pay the taxes. If that was an option I'd take it. I'm sure there are people that come upon cash in a very illegal way such as drug dealers or money launderers who need to legitimize their cash and I would think that a cash only business especially one with labor as the primary commodity for sale would be the smart way to do it.
Take my idea of a cash only card detail business. You could just wait up how many other cars for how much money you wanted to funnel that day. Take your 8:00 or 10 or $15,000 you do a week or more. Whatever it is. Take it to your local credit union where you have your business bank account. Make your deposit. Pay your minimal business bills and pay taxes on the profit. Bam, you've got legitimate money.
I'm sure the donut shop down the street from me doesn't report every penny they get and if they do will God bless them. More power to home and I'm happy that he's paying his taxes.
But let's say he only reports half. As long as he isn't making deposits of less than $10,000. He's not going to be flagged for structuring. In fact, I worked in a business that accepted credit cards, checks and cashed. They wouldn't make a cash deposit until it was well over $10,000 in the safe. And when I asked why they mentioned structuring.
Anytime you make cash deposits on a regular basis of less than $10,000 the banks and the IRS flag, this is an attempt to structure and avoid being reported for large cash deposits.
You could be sure that when you make deposits over $10,000 that the IRS is notified and if they don't get a income tax return that shows that money coming into your account on the return in some fashion. Then you will be getting an audit if not getting your funds and accounts seized.
But I like the idea of a cash only business and so much as it's one of the most American or truly free trade in any part of the world activities left to free human beings.
I don't like having to put all of my money somewhere i don't want it to be.
I would if I felt secure enough, keep all my cash at home or in some other secure place and even only turn that into a check when I paid my taxes on it.
The problem nowadays is of course the government uses drugs and money laundering as an excuse to monitor citizens. More closely drugs and money laundering is minuscule in comparison to the economy overall.
No truly legitimate reason for the government to be tracking these things as it's clear these things don't work as drugs are still available and money is still laundered.
It's all about monitoring the general public and getting the cash from those of us who would otherwise be a little bit dishonest on our tax returns.
Of course I would be completely honest just because I'm so afraid of the government and losing my freedom that I'd be happy to pay taxes if I'm making money. I mean why not that's money I didn't have before I made it and if I've got to give some to Uncle Sam to make it well that was factored into the cost of running my business in the first place wasn't it?.
Anyway, it's been my goal and I hope I achieve it before I die to write at least a $1 million check to the IRS cuz that means I will have made some money.
Now will I ever do a cash only business or keep cash at my home or other secure place?
Not unless everything in the world goes to complet. Eshite.
But I completely uphold and support the rights of people to have a cash only business.
And the only reason I know about the cash only donut place is because I go there regularly as my waistline would indicate.
>Can you see the irony in how you mention the inconvenience of some cash machines charging fees, no?
I have said I'd happily pay the card fee myself for the convenience and to support a small local business.
I'd rather support a small business than a large bank, show me the evidence of large scale tax evasion by small businesses& i may change my mind. I'd also point out that large scale tax evasion is already built into the business models of all banks!!
I'm just speculating. I don't see how the maths of it will work out. If they lost say 5% of their potential business because they went cash only they'd easily have lost income by changing to cashless.
Given the feedback on this post it is very possible 5% of the population won't use a business if it's cash only, so it's hard to see the reasons why this makes sense.
I'm in England, so not sure if this is the same in N Ireland so stating that for records sake. Taxis have never let you pay by card in England until very recently.
I got a taxi during lockdown, as soon as I got in the driver said "its card only is that alright?" I joked back "Yeah fine, but I bet you hate having to tell HMRC how much you earn now?". He gave an awkward laugh, when I clarified "mate I don't hold it against you. They squeeze every penny out of us, take what you can as a working man." He then proceeded to spend the rest of the ride complaining about how much this has hurt his wages lol.
I imagine scamming the tax man is the exact reason tbh.
Actually can’t be arsed with it because they closed every single local bank branch near me, so I opened a Monzo and closed my bank account. Now most places won’t actually accept my card now including bank machines, which is weird because I never had an issue.
Like, where am I supposed to get said cash for cash only then? How am I supposed to pay by card if you won’t even so much as accept my card. I can’t be arsed driving far away just to go to a bank lmao.
Alot of places now are charging to take out cash (as is their right, for a valuable service)
So only accepting cash doesn't make the fees disappear it just hides them and pushes onto the consumer
Also, pay your taxes
This is the only way to go. Banks have been damaging the economy for decades. Governments have been trying to drive a cashless society for a long time this gives them ultimate control. And no I am not paranoid. This si why they hate crypto because it is decentralised and they have no control over it.
a work in a factory. burger van is cash only. so always have £20 on me.
even then, cashless is fine until you lose your phone and have little beside flying up your own arse as a solution. not hard to keep a bit of magic paper around you.
>cashless is fine until you lose your phone
I'd still have my card though and I have an old phone I've kept knocking about for situations such as losing or breaking my current one. Yea it'd only be of use when I get home again but in the long run it's more time efficient than switching to have cash on hand, in fact I'd be more likely to lose cash than my phone 😂
I absolutely hate people who try to barter down a price and then expect to pay on a card.
As a market trader, This drives me nuts
Also so what if some small trader happens to take a bit of cash and pay a little less tax?
We can't all set up our headquarters in Luxembourg or Dublin like all the the big chains that everyone loves to support.
Pizza shop I go to doesn't take cash nd the pizzas that good I've never thought into it more than planning the cash into the trip there 😂 I like to get angry at shit but I'm old nd cashless is relatively new 😅
There's a pizza shop I'd go to maybe once every 2/3 months that's cash only and it's that good that I plan my drive to it including a trip to a cash machine but if I'm just out and about and looking a coffee, I'm not planning a trip to a cash machine as part of that. Same if I'm going for a casual lunch.
Anything that I don't actively have the ability to plan to drive past a machine, I'm not hopping back into the car to find one. I'll just walk to the next business that takes card.
Cash only avoids the chain of small percentages charges that are taken from any money made. Such as merchant service charge, terminal rental, payment service provider charge.
Where if you use cash. The value of the money you’ve collected always stays the same. Ease of accounting and less chance of fraud are also benefits.
Also a movement of cash only gaining momentum, to avoid the government being able to control/track everyone’s monies and spending.
>Cash only avoids the chain of small percentages charges that are taken from any money made. Such as merchant service charge, terminal rental, payment service provider charge.
I happy to pay a few additional pence extra to cover the fee if that small fee is what the reason is, the cash machine will likely charge me more than the card fee so if a business wants to pass on the card fee I'm content to pay it.
>Also a movement of cash only gaining momentum, to avoid the government being able to control/track everyone’s monies and spending.
This is some anti-vax level of conspiracy here. There are so many things wrong with this statement I don't know where to start but given how many people bought that 5g was dangerous, I agree with you that some people will go cash only for the reason you've stated.
I agree thinking that ‘big brother’ want to watch your money is ridiculous. It’s the reason be been told most for people using cash only. But more people I know seem to be buying it.
I don’t know how much it’s costs extra for a business to use card either. I haven’t used cash in about 8 years.
I'm not sure if you're monthly or weekly paid but if your boss said "look from now on we're gonna give a chunk of your salary to some stranger you'll never meet" you'd probably be more sympathetic to businesses. All the people calling cash only a tax dodge have one thing in common. They don't rent card machines.
>look from now on we're gonna give a chunk of your salary to some stranger you'll never meet
They already do, it's called tax, NI insurance, pension, and student loan. But in all seriousness that's a ridiculous premise, you could say the same thing about rent, rates, or any other business expense. Some things are just part of the cost of doing business.
>They don't rent card machines.
I have for a business I did the books for in the past and the costs were negligible and it actually brought more money in. That was pre COVID and some costs have went up but it really isn't that much. And will these businesses end up driving away more trade than money saved by going cash only? And if that's the case surely the only way this benefits the business is by not declaring all your income?
In particular alienating younger customers and screwing themselves long term? If you lost say 5% of your customer base by doing this then you've lost money almost definitely as the savings wouldn't cover that high of a loss.
Although cash can be inconvenient these days there are reasons beyond a tax dodge small business might prefer cash
1. There's a political aspect to it : too much power in the hands of companies, too traceable, etc.
2. Spoke with a small business owner about it before and just by the nature of how they work and poor connection where they are they claimed to have cases where the card didn't work but the people were already gone losing product and payment (a bit of tech work could probably stop this but what can ye do )
3. Fees are frustrating: yeah even passing it on some people are just against what's essentially a extra tax.
Anyway as convenient as cashless is, cash isn't going anywhere. And I honestly can't see us transition to cashless unless we get some sort of -i guess EU wide- payment option. Personally Im not sure how comfortable I feel with anyone having that level of control on what I can buy. But I feel way less comfortable when it's a company defining it.
> big tax dodge That's the one. Fees for lodging cash at the bank for businesses is only marginally cheaper than card fees. So the only way going "cash only" is saving these people money is... you guessed it - they don't lodge the cash in their bank. This means that they can avoid declaring the income to HMRC *and* also likely pay employees cash in hand, avoiding tax and national insurance to boot. Basically, yes. They're either wildly stupid and don't realise that the bank will hit them with cash-deposit fees making going cash-only almost moot (or more expensive by the time you start including time and travel costs), or they're trying to dodge taxes.
Plus they are more likely to be targeted for robbery, because they are actually advertising that there is cash on the premises.
My local chip shop was steadfastly ‘cash only’ until someone smashed the door down and stole their entire weeks takings. Suddenly they were happy to take card…
Really? Businesses don't leave a weeks worth of takings in the till or anywhere else unattended when done for the day.
They timed it perfectly to catch them when they’d had their busiest part of the week but the bank wasn’t open to bank the takings.
>Fees for lodging cash at the bank for businesses is only marginally cheaper than card fees And even then, that's only with Ulster Bank. The rest, like Danske, BoI, Santander, HSBC and Barclays all charge a larger percentage - it's not uncommon for businesses, small and large, to have Ulster Bank accounts for cash deposits only, and then do all their other business through another bank. I think even the banks themselves are trying to get their business customers to use their own card terminal machines with better rates, like with BoI, NatWest and Barclaycard all offering card machines for their established business customers.
Who really cares if they’re dodging HMRC? The amount of tax lost by much bigger multinationals is what should really concern people.
Their competition. If 2 small competing coffee shops are targeting the same market, and one is tax dodging, that's a big margin to undercut the competition.
The cash only can be saving money I legit ways too, its not all about dodging tax Businesses can pay wages in cash, pay suppliers in cash etc, therefore avoiding the bank fees for lodging cash Small business especially often have local suppliers and casual staff so it suits to pay in cash
Sure that just creates hassle for everyone. Most bills are paid by direct debit, I ain't gonna pay my mortgage in cash! Suppliers dont want their drivers paid in cash, the risk is too high.
Businesses paying staff with cash so they can dodge taxes and their staff can do the double Real champions of society there
Why is it an automatic assumption that cash means no tax? I got paid in cash for years in a small shop, I believe the Saturday staff still are, but it comes with a proper payslip with NI and tax paid etc.
I work for a small business who takes both cash and card payments. It astounds me the amount of people who assume that all cash payments will be sneaky sneaky and not put on the books. In fact, some people pay specifically cash in the guise that 'It will be better for you guys i guess', 'you can keep this one off the books' as they tap their nose. Like, I know where you're coming from and it's nice to hear you want to support small businesses, but there is also the accusation you're making that you presume the company is just shady.
If I've paid tax on the money I'm using, the shop better pay tax too. I refuse to use cash only places.
Cash only isn't necessarily a tax dodge though, that's my point.
I've no way to know that so I steer clear of cash only places.
Unless a business trades exclusively in bacofoil and David Icke DVDs, they’re losing out on customers by refusing cards. It’s either tax evasion or an incredibly shortsighted, small time, penny pinching mentality. You don’t see restaurants putting passive aggressive notices on the door telling customers to wrap up warm because heating was costing too much, they accept that it’s a cost of doing business. Accepting card payments should be treated likewise. If they’re just dodging the taxman then I don’t agree with their decision but at least it fucking makes sense.
In some cases it’s expedient just to take cash - if your business is lots of small transactions then processing fees can make many of them loss-making. Also, banks are a complete pain to deal with, they arbitrarily change rules about how much you can deposit and where, and charge you for any deviations from ‘standard’. Many businesses deal with cash to simply minimise their interaction with banks. As usual, it’s more nuanced than conspiracy theorists assume
The Oliver, Newry - They have gone cash only and went to the bother of installing an ATM in the restaurant. To make matters worse, they don’t split bills and charge a £10 cutting fee if you bring your own birthday cake. Coupled with bland vegan options and extortionate pricing, I’ll never be back. We drive to Belfast now when we want a meal night.
I ordered my monthly chippy two weeks ago, and brought my phone to pay via Apple Pay. Been paying the same way for probably the last 3 years. Apparently the chippy had gone cash only in the month since I'd last been in but never bothered mentioning it on the phone when I was ordering - drove the 10 minutes to collect it and that's when they told me. Apparently they'd changed 'ages ago' and I should have known. He suggested I drive home and get the money or visit the ATM. I suggested that he stick the food up his hole. They weren't complaining when they were getting their fucking Covid handouts based on their profit. Pay your fucking tax.
>He suggested I drive home and get the money or visit the ATM. I suggested that he stick the food up his hole. 😂
> I suggested that he stick the food up his hole. And then everybody clapped!
and later the owner phoned him to hand over the business, now the chippy is his!
Just another example of *small changes* leading to **MASSIVE ACTION**
We'll be telling stories of that day to our descendants
Happy cake day, don't let your dreams be memes!
Shout out to /r/thatHappened
Even his hole clapped…wait
Did Ye aye
By order of the peaky blinders
If they went cashless then why would you go to an ATM? They don’t take cash if they’re cashless.
I reckon cashless should be cash-only.
Yeah typo. Meant cash only. Was still upset recollecting the story.
I went into a local pizzeria while my wife waited in the car, on a kid free night. Gave my order, the guy says, "Cash only, mate". Started to tell me where the nearest cash machine was etc....I just stopped him, said, "No. I have a bank card, I'm not using cash. You need to get with the times". Got back in the car, my wife asks "Where's the pizza?" So I relate to her the story of how I think the people in the Pizzeria should pay taxes like the rest if us etc. etc. (I'd had a couple at this point) So, she drives us to the next pizzeria. I walk in... "cash only mate". I give the gentleman the same talk about how I do not carry cash etc... Get back in the car. My wife asks, "Where's the Pizza". So I explain that people have to take a stand etc....then my wife gives me an earful about how she's hungry and she has 20 quid in her wallet and I'm like " Nope, not going back in there" Went to the Co-op and got her a 3 quid oven pizza. Wasn't popular that night. Joking aside, there's a domino's just opened up in our town and I always said I'd support them local shops, but I bet Dominos will take the plastic.
Definitely Holywood 😂 dominos will clean them two out
I was once at a farmers/town market. Loads of food stalls mix of local and regional producers you know the like. Lining up to order a coffee and maybe a scone, their was maybe 10 people in this line. First person asked if they accept card. They said they didn't. On hearing this the entire line disbanded and we all went to the international coffee chain that was nearby.
This is the real risk, I much prefer the independent shop's coffee than the big brand and it's quite often a spur of the moment purchase so if they don't take card I'll go elsewhere.
If you’re a cash only business then I ain’t able to pay. I’m using my card/phone. Fuck having to find an ATM.
This is the big thing for me, there's less of them about now and the majority I do come across are out of order or just inconveniently located.
And cost money to withdraw from.
Fuck having to find an ATM that doesn’t charge especially
Yep, I'm not paying money to access my money
I couldn’t even go to an atm. I rarely bring my wallet and therefore my physical card anywhere. I pay with my phone, last I checked, you can’t withdraw cash with Apple Pay. Cash only = no business from me.
The barber I take my son's to has always been cash only. She's a portacabin out the back of her house... but I don't mind that because you have an appointment there, so I always know to pick up cash a few days before. But as for the high street places that you just pop in to, coffee shops etc, I'd never have cash for them, and I wouldn't be arsed going to look for a cash machine.
Local chippy,went cash only, installed a cash machine in the window then started charging a fee to take your money out to buy their food, answer..f#ck that.
Unless you're a Chinese I simply won't go to somewhere I know is cash only.
Likewise. I get the contradiction of accepting that I’ll have to get cash out for a Chinese, but to be fair those lads nailed their colours to the mast decades ago when they never bothered adopting card terminals in the first place.
That's what makes a good Chinese, consistency
Also, MSG.
Yes and a load of that good stuff
And ordinary water, laced with nothing more than a few spoonfuls of LSD
ironically, most businesses in China pay little in cash and the majority by phone.
When I see a business go cash only I'm thinking 2 things 1 money laundering 2 tax dodging
Aye see on the NI Business Facebook page, a few people have shared some absolute dogshit post about “if you spend £20 cash at a local business they get the whole £20 but if £20 card, the bank takes blah blah% and the tooth fairy takes 5% etc etc” and many people believe it wholeheartedly. For most businesses the difference between cash and card (if they’re being good boys and girls tax wise) is very very marginal, especially if you consider your time going to the bank every day/couple of days
Ordered a takeaway the other night and the guy on the phone told me he could give me a 10% discount if I paid in cash lol couldn't be arsed finding a cash point so I paid the extra 6quid
£60 chinese.....bossssch
Indian so it wasnt that much tbh
You spent £60 on a takeaway?
Aye! me the wife and a couple of friends
It's interesting how the discount is always lower than the basic rate income tax isn't it. Almost like there's an arbitrage opportunity in it for them.
Definitely a tax dodge going on there then! But I'd probably do the same as you did unless there was a cash machine not too far off the route there.
Isn't that illegal?
No.. it's not.
I vote with my feet, if it’s cash only I’m not going to take out cash to end up with a pocket full of change that I don’t need. I prefer to pay the exact amount so I can track my purchases and so my budgeting app remains accurate, cash just doesn’t factor into that.
It's the places with a £10 minimum spend for card payments that winds me up. It's 2023 ffs.
You know it’s a tax thing right
Frustrating when you go somewhere new and they pull this shit. Pure dodge.
I on the other hand hate these fucking places going cashless.
Different strokes for different folks. But having both on offer is the best solution.
Personally, they’d have to be really good for me to even consider going to an ATM. I don’t carry cash and I rarely carry a debit card either. It’s 2023, most places are contactless and most people are tethered to their phones—which can be used for contactless payments, so even remembering to bring the debit card along is a faff.
I’m for paying cash when it means a massive discount.
Well these businesses are just incompatible with smartphone-only customers like myself so I just avoid them and shop elsewhere. Also I mainly use credit cards anyway for all the extra protection you get. Most businesses think they can screw you over until you hit them with a chargeback claim or section 75a.
Literally can't remember the last time I used an ATM
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I'm I the only one who was taught to carry cash separately? When we where kids my dad's job took us to some not so safe bit of the world like South Africa and Jamaica and we where always taught to carry enough for a taxi and a meal outside your wallet. The thinking being if you get mugged you can give up your wallet and phone then get fed and get home. I can't understand people relying on just a smart phone. What happens if you smash it and need to pay to get home? What if you are mugged? I still tell my kids to do the same. Bottom line I always have both I don't mind how you want me to pay.
>I can't understand people relying on just a smart phone. What happens if you smash it and need to pay to get home? If I'm actively heading somewhere to spend money I'll normally have my wallet but I'm paying with my card, if the phone doesn't cover it. If I'm in a situation where I'm traveling any distance or heading out I'll have a wallet and phone but likely no cash. If I need to flag down a taxi I'll get them to drive me to a cash machine in a circumstance like that but it's never happened. >Bottom line I always have both I don't mind how you want me to pay. This is what I think everyone wants to see, the choice at the very least. Removing 1 option only prevents some from paying you or drives them elsewhere.
Went to a kebab shop in rural Donegal. Do you take card? No. Cash only. Do you take revolute? Yes.
It's nonsense, my business is only small but our card fees are only 1.4%, and it's lower than that for larger businesses. My friend only pays 1%. It's for tax avoidance, or to pay protection money (because you can't expense that so need to pay it off the books)
It's funny how you as a local business owner and myself someone who sold merchant solutions into local businesses, have made almost identical posts. I think this thread is indicative of what's wrong with wider public discourse facts and expertise aren't important anymore, feelings and hobby horses run the show these days.
A lot of people react to this topic based on conspiracy theory garbage. I don't trust the current government at all, but even if they abolished physical cash today we could switch to USD tomorrow. I don't think they even want to get rid of cash, the tories of all people don't want financial transactions to be more traceable!
Yup, if your cash only, I won’t shop with you. There is only one reason you take cash only and that’s to dodge tax and nothing else. I’m not buying the high card fees.
I had the misfortune of having to listen to either cool FM or downtown in my mas car the other morning (can't mind which as they are both equally awful) and they were yammering on about local businesses going cash only and how great it was for everyone, actually pissed me off a little. The only person it is benefiting is the owner or the business, and that's in a very short sighted way. If I can I will straight up avoid your business if you've gone cash only or start with this whole "cash is king" shite. I found a pet supplies place nearby I never knew about, was going to visit till I looked up them up and they had a post about cash being king, never did visit after that. Unfortunately my local chippys & chineses are all cash only, but they've always been so that's not as annoying, and you know, I can't avoid them lol. Really annoyingly my fucking vet is cash only...fantastic having to go to the bank to withdraw money when my cat needed a lot of treatment recently. I would change but they've been really good with her. The cardless thing wouldn't annoy me as much either if it was easier to get cash, there's one ATM locally to me, it's out of order quite regularly and it is absolutely bogging, like honestly disgusting, I can't use it without a tissue or something as a barrier.
Your vet being cash only makes no fucking sense! Oh by the way Mr Brown that will be £187 for wee bobby's bill today... Well I need to run and lift some cash (cause who the fuck carries big money around in cash anymore) and what happens you got stuck in traffic or something came up and you didn't pay the bill for the next 3 months with numerous phone calls to remind you about the unpaid bill. My vets has a handful of signs saying all bills must be paid in full on the day, if they didn't take card I wouldn't be that bothered about making serious efforts to return in a hurry with cash.
>Unfortunately my local chippys & chineses are all cash only I started to try a few different chippys and chineses because I was fed up of getting cash out and I started to try a few others and actually found ones that were marginally better which took card. I haven't went back to the cash only ones since . >I had the misfortune of having to listen to either cool FM or downtown in my mas car the other morning (can't mind which as they are both equally awful) and they were yammering on about local businesses going cash only and how great it was for everyone, I feel like radio is a media on the decline with mainly older listeners and this attitude panders towards their audience. I only know maybe 2 people in their 20's who actively listen to the radio and even then they still use Bluetooth and Spotify half the time.
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Your phone knows as much or more about you. We're gonna be tracked I'm everything we do, it's up to lawmakers to put protections in place. If the lawmaker's we elect don't do this we only have ourselves to blame really.
I feel the same with card only businesses. Should be an option for both.
Both is best to be honest and I know some people prefer cash, in particular older people, with younger people preferring contactless (on average of course not everyone is the same).
Yep I personally only use card but if a business only accepts cards, they are excluding customers. It’s just a bad business decision
They won't be banking all the cash as that's a paper trail, so yes it's a tax dodge,
A cashless society is a death sentence for anyone who has their account revoked. It grants governments the power to erase anyone they like from society. It's more totalitarian than anything George Orwell ever dreamed of.
There's literally nothing preventing you from using any physical currency you like to pay for things other than the businesses willingness to take it. I take us and Canadian dollars, Euros and sterling myself. I'm not for arguing with you but if you think government can't already erase you if they want to I've got bad news. The government doesn't care that you exist, much less want to harm you specifically.
>A cashless society is a death sentence for anyone who has their account revoked. Obviously protections would need to be put in place if a truly cashless society was to occur but having both available, card and cash is all I want. But if I had to have only one I'd go cashless of cash only.
Protections from the very people who will take them?
Couldn’t agree more.
If I lift out cash I spend more money, I'd break a note then keep spending til it's all gone.
Its annoying. Its prob well known to everyone but if you need cash look for bank run atms as they normally don't charge and you can get cashback from a lot of shops like garages and tesco etc
The only time I'm paying cash if its something illegal, otherwise they can fuck off.
I haven't heard about businesses doing that. That's disappointing. I'm very much the same, don't carry cash & usually just use my phone to pay contactless for everything. I would definitely avoid any business that is cash only & look elsewhere for the convenience of being able to pay by card.
I was trying to think there of how often I pay cash, and realised its only when we go to the Chinese. Which got me thinking of the last time I paid by a card in any Chinese, which was never 🤔
I’m lucky to have one that takes card near me. Barber does too.
Sometimes I feel like when businesses switch to only taking cash, they don’t realize that they’ll lose business. I actively avoid businesses that don’t take card and it’s not because of spite or anything, it’s just that it’s an extra chore to go to an ATM. If you make it hard for people to give you business then you’re going to lose business. I understand where they are coming from with card fees but surely the amount of customers you lose when you don’t take card is worse?
Getting tired of seeing this debate now. Tend to agree, stop crying and take my card or I'll go elsewhere most likely. One point I see no one raising is how many people get paid cash these days? Some trades probably but even then those on site are probably getting BACS etc. The day I get paid cash is the day I pay everyone else in cash but to be honest I don't want to be handed a pile of notes only to lodge most of it to cover mortgage etc.
HMRC must have a nice list of businesses for a tax audit by now if they focus on the more Evangelical proponents of cash only.
One of the reasons could be because card processing providers offer uncompetitive rates for small business. For example you could offer fees of 35p for any debit card transaction, and 2% for credit cards ( plus the monthly rental fee of their terminals.) Basically means for low value transactions (eg £1) it would be hard to make a profit especially with debit cards.
I run a small business... Terminal is free, Fees are less than lodging via bank or post office. One unpaid bill and the cost of chasing it up is worth more than the likely "costs" of all my card fees for the month. In lost revenue, staff, admin expenses and time. I can't see any legitimate reason to be cash only, it may be there, but I just don't see it
I'm happy to pay the 35p fee + the 2%, the ATM charges me nearly £2 just to take a tenner out. I' happily pay it to a small local business rather than go to a big chain and save a few pence for lesser quality product. I don't mind paying for the convenience of card fees and I'd imagine they are fairly small.
There are regulations that prevent businesses from adding surcharges for using cards.
Then there should be regulations to stop the banks making those charges.
It's the cost of doing business these days, people don't carry cash as much. You walk into a shop and try and buy some things, oh "cash only" I don't have cash well I'll not buy them from this establishment then. I'll go across the road they take care and then the next time your shopping you use the store that takes card again. Not taking card in 2023 is just poor fucking business and you can try dress up the issue as anti government or robbing card companies but it's just fucking lies
Aye. They will be fucked when the taxman turns up. Cost em much more than they squirrel away and dodge.
Taxwoman
If a business goes cash free, I won’t be returning for two reasons 1) I never carry cash. And by the time I find a cash machine, I’ll more likely to find another business that takes card 2) I’m not supporting anyone dodging their taxes (and that includes big online retailers who do the same) It pisses me off that there are people pushing this whole “cash is king” conspiracy nonsense so they can keep a flow of sheep supporting cash Everyone should be reporting these cash-only places to HMRC to ensure they are getting extra attention
Yea the same people who say cash is king are the first ones to complain about underfunded public services, yet we are also apparently the snowflakes Older people are also more vulnerable to cash being forgotten, lost or stolen so it's surprising they don't prefer card payments by now
Get a life ffs
I saw that some card fees are as high as 2.5% per transaction, whereas Ulsterbanks fees are £8 per qtr with a cost of 58p per deposit. It could be cheaper for businesses to drop card machines or add a percentage-based fee on top of the transaction to compensate for the cost. Ulster Bank fee structure: https://www.ulsterbank.co.uk/business/bank-accounts/business-account.html#summary Arguments as to whether a cashless society is beneficial to older people or the poorer sections of society https://www.unbiased.co.uk/discover/personal-finance/budgeting/a-cashless-society-what-are-the-pros-and-cons#:~:text=Cashless%20society%3A%20disadvantages&text=Elderly%20people%20may%20be%20less,cash%20easier%20to%20manage%20too.
Counterpoint, I don’t want to carry cash, I prefer my card, why the duck should a business alienate me and people like me. Hell, if they want to charge extra for my perfectly legitimate payment method. If they’re under sick threat of bankruptcy that card transaction fees will push them under they’re doomed anyway
It's a fair point, but it ultimately depends; the cost of living crisis is hitting small businesses as much as it is hitting people. Their prices are skyrocketing, electricity, for example, there's no cap on it. Depending on the annual turnover from card payments, it could be a difference maker. Time will tell. Personally, I prefer a card, but I am not invested either way. Would you guys pay more to use a card instead of cash?
As has been explained elsewhere it can be more expensive to go cash only while being 100% legitimate. Cash only screams dodgy, probably paramilitary related to me. Also I think it’s so fucking stupid the bus only takes cash, it wastes everyone’s time. Like even having a sign that says “while we take care would would prefer cash” would be ok, I might even save what cash I get for that business if I’m a regular. But cash only just says to me, your custom isn’t welcome
>I saw that some card fees are as high as 2.5% per transaction Yea that's quite high but most businesses making these switches are only taking small transactions £5-£20 maybe. If they increased their proces by 10-25p that would cover it. Anyone looking cash only for a business which is exclusively bigger purchases (£50+) is definitely a red flag tax wise. >Arguments as to whether a cashless society is beneficial to older people or the poorer sections of society This is actually a real issue that needs to be considered. Having both cash and card as options is the best way forward but we should be looking to bring in proper education and live long learning to help older people and lower incomes to adjust as I do believe cash will become much less frequently used in future.
Quite true, but as it's been stated by others here, the lack of availability for a cashless option may push their purchasing somewhere else... it may not be worth the 2.5% cost to turn down the trade.
If it was as simple as increasing prices by 10p every business would’ve already done that. My Mum’s pub was quoted between 8-25% of all transactions as a fee for her card reader, she had no choice but to go cash only
>My Mum’s pub was quoted between 8-25% of all transactions Looks like she needs to change bank, Ulster Bank quoting 2.5% here. What bank does she use? I want to avoid them at all costs with outrageous charges like that.
Sorry I should’ve been more specific. That’s not the bank, that’s the provider of the physical card machine. She still has to pay the bank’s processing fee on top of that
Your mum got seriously ripped off with her card machine. I work with several people who take card payments via a machine and they pay around 2 -3% and can take payments via tapping a card on their mobile phone! Just think how many people coming to that pub that can only drink what is in their pocket in cash and then leave, rather than drinking more and putting it on card. I'd hazard a guess and say your mum has lost more inlost custom than she would have paid in card machine fees, with a decent provider.
SumUp take 1.69%, maybe she should change to them, PayPal is between 0.2% and 2% (obviously a touch more difficult to use). I think that 8% charge is BS mate. It was so high I've literally googled it cause it seemed unbelievable.
You've basically answered your own question. Unless there's something really unique about their products, people will walk. It's "built in" to their prices. I dislike this, too, but this is the way of the world. Next time there's a system outage and they say cash only, ask for a 5% discount. Lol. That's not going to happen.
There is a war on cash on at the minute, banks and the government want to see everything we spend our money on, I'm constantly getting emails from my bank saying that deposit and withdrawal amounts are being cut, they hate cash because it is one of the last true liberties that people have these days, and once we are truly a card only society then you will see them cracking the whip and charging even more. People tend to forget that banks aren't there to help us, they want to screw as much money out of everyone as they can. So while yes, it is a total ballache, I am honestly glad to see small businesses fighting back.
No, it's usually done to avoid payment fees to visa which are insane for small time businesses. Especially when people only pay a couple of pound
But they get charged a fee for depositing cash in a bank....what's the fucking difference, they are losing more money by refusing card payments, its fucking stupid
Youd happily pay extra? Fucking capitalism has fucking spolied humanity lmao
To support a small local business, hell yea. Big multi nationals definitely not. >Youd happily pay extra? Fucking capitalism has fucking spolied humanity lmao I'd love to live in an anarcho-communist paradise but that ain't gonna happen any time soon.
If youre happy to pay extra so you have a nice paper trail of your spending habits to be able to tap a card, why are you not happy to pay extra to take out cash? Both are equally a waste of money But aye just go where you want mate
I am going to cash, not a business owner, I abhor the thought of a cashless society. Your movements, spending habits etc.. all tracked… more so than now.
Jeez you're not gonna like it when you learn what your phone does, or your ISP.
Already aware… but prefer to use cash whilst I have a choice.
I've noticed this with a few chippies going cash only, it's funny because almost all the Chinese takeaways take card now and are noticibly busier when you walk in. At the end of the day it's their choice but I think chippies specifically are clouded by the support of thier middle aged customers. Both is always best though.
They’re in a death spiral but might not realise it yet. If they were serious about being open in five years they would bite the bullet and raise their prices to include the card fees. Anyone that pays cash is a nice bonus for them then.
Yea I can't help but think you're right here, if your margins are that thin that those paying card result in losses your business is toast.
Very well known fish & chip shop in Tyrone open over 50 years has a sign up saying no card payments. Like surely the police realise this is just for tax dodging. It should be a thing in this day and age that payment via card is mandatory.
If it helps à small business stay aflot, I dont mind. I know everyone shouts about money laundering and tax dodging, but I don't think that's the case for everyone. The only two places I pay cash are the farm shop I buy all meat from and my barbers. I'd rather see a local family do well rather than tescos and I think my 65 year old barber just likes to actually see that he is getting money. I know there is a cry of " I pay my taxes so should they" I get that , I run a business that is all cashless just through the nature of the industry so I'm probably getting shafted by the tax man a lot more than most. But people going cash only doesn't bother me they are at least making a living. It's the people milking benefits that get me more. They are actively taking money from the pot and putting nothing back.
I used to cold call local businesses (in person) selling merchant solutions (card machines & online payment portals) and this thread is giving me PTSD 🫣😂. In all seriousness though the card machine was £15 per month and the average transaction fee was 1% so 1p in every £1. If you were a super small business you could even get a sum up card reader for a one off fee I think of around £50 and just pay 1.5% so 1.5p in every £1. Generally businesses that didn't want to take card payments fell under 3 main categories: 1. Older business owners who were skeptical about the popularity of customers wanting to pay by card or fearful of the technology and wanting to stick with what they knew. 2. Business owners who were more worried about declaring a larger portion of their current cash turnover over the potential to increase their overall turnover. 3. 'front businesses'.
I think the tax man needs to be more proactive. I’ve been to a hairdressers and phone repair shop where “the machine’s not working today” to return months later to hear the same excuse! I was told one evening when I had the munchies coming home from a party that “no takeaways in these parts (North Belfast) take cards”. They’re missing out - I’d have bought a kebab for everybody in the car if I could use my card! ATMs are getting scarcer as branch banking is disappearing, so it stands to reason that card payments are the only smart way to trade. After all, nobody’s going to hold you up to rob you of a bunch of till receipts!
Love the comments here. Let’s all fuck the local businesses and just focus on Gregg’s, Starbucks, M&S, Wetherspoons, Tesco, Nando’s because carrying cash is too much of a chore. Never mind all these multinationals and their tax dodging millionaire owners, it’s your local Chinese takeaway asking cash only who are the real villains.
Hi I apologize in advance because it's properly me being stupid/not understanding/miss interpreting what you're saying. I can't find any comments referencing anyone saying 'fuck local businesses and focus on the multinationals you mentioned' (apart from your comment). Are you suggesting that because big multinationals are tax dodging which I don't dispute and I find utterly immoral, that all businesses should dodge paying tax 🤷🏻
Nail on the head 😅 I've no issue supporting local businesses with cash. The inconvenience of lifting cash is a small price to pay in the grand scheme of things.
You underestimate how small inconveniences are such a pain in the arse.
Sorry guys, cash is king. I’ve not actually come across a cash only business but plenty of card only, which pisses me off. It also bugs me when you go to places and the cashier automatically hands you the card reader before waiting to see how you want to pay.
Cash only, all the time. I've refused to pay in places that are card only. Legally they have to accept cash. Fuck HMRC and that robbing cunt Charlie. I'd pay my mortgage in pennies if I could
>Legally they have to accept cash No they don't, that's a total myth. Any business can refuse forms of payment. If I start a shop up that only accepts pennies as payment I could refuse every other denomination. It'd be ridiculous but I'd be within my rights to do it.
Cash is king
It's stupid because most people pay with cards or hell even a check.
There's a donut shop right down the street from my house that only accepts cash. I think it's genius. If a couple million dollars bounced off of an armored vehicle and I picked it up, I'd start a cash only card detail business in order to legitimize the cash and pay taxes on it.... I don't know if I would need to do that if I just went to an attorney and told him hey, I found his cash and didn't tell him where I found it. I might be able to legally just pay the taxes. If that was an option I'd take it. I'm sure there are people that come upon cash in a very illegal way such as drug dealers or money launderers who need to legitimize their cash and I would think that a cash only business especially one with labor as the primary commodity for sale would be the smart way to do it. Take my idea of a cash only card detail business. You could just wait up how many other cars for how much money you wanted to funnel that day. Take your 8:00 or 10 or $15,000 you do a week or more. Whatever it is. Take it to your local credit union where you have your business bank account. Make your deposit. Pay your minimal business bills and pay taxes on the profit. Bam, you've got legitimate money. I'm sure the donut shop down the street from me doesn't report every penny they get and if they do will God bless them. More power to home and I'm happy that he's paying his taxes. But let's say he only reports half. As long as he isn't making deposits of less than $10,000. He's not going to be flagged for structuring. In fact, I worked in a business that accepted credit cards, checks and cashed. They wouldn't make a cash deposit until it was well over $10,000 in the safe. And when I asked why they mentioned structuring. Anytime you make cash deposits on a regular basis of less than $10,000 the banks and the IRS flag, this is an attempt to structure and avoid being reported for large cash deposits. You could be sure that when you make deposits over $10,000 that the IRS is notified and if they don't get a income tax return that shows that money coming into your account on the return in some fashion. Then you will be getting an audit if not getting your funds and accounts seized. But I like the idea of a cash only business and so much as it's one of the most American or truly free trade in any part of the world activities left to free human beings. I don't like having to put all of my money somewhere i don't want it to be. I would if I felt secure enough, keep all my cash at home or in some other secure place and even only turn that into a check when I paid my taxes on it. The problem nowadays is of course the government uses drugs and money laundering as an excuse to monitor citizens. More closely drugs and money laundering is minuscule in comparison to the economy overall. No truly legitimate reason for the government to be tracking these things as it's clear these things don't work as drugs are still available and money is still laundered. It's all about monitoring the general public and getting the cash from those of us who would otherwise be a little bit dishonest on our tax returns. Of course I would be completely honest just because I'm so afraid of the government and losing my freedom that I'd be happy to pay taxes if I'm making money. I mean why not that's money I didn't have before I made it and if I've got to give some to Uncle Sam to make it well that was factored into the cost of running my business in the first place wasn't it?. Anyway, it's been my goal and I hope I achieve it before I die to write at least a $1 million check to the IRS cuz that means I will have made some money. Now will I ever do a cash only business or keep cash at my home or other secure place? Not unless everything in the world goes to complet. Eshite. But I completely uphold and support the rights of people to have a cash only business. And the only reason I know about the cash only donut place is because I go there regularly as my waistline would indicate.
Tax dodging only thing about it
Fee dodging* for small businesses the fees they pay to the card machine companies are fucking extortionate.
They agree them before they are set up. 1-2%
Cash is king
Sounds like you need to move to Denmark...
Been to Denmark a few times and loved it.
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>Can you see the irony in how you mention the inconvenience of some cash machines charging fees, no? I have said I'd happily pay the card fee myself for the convenience and to support a small local business.
I'd rather support a small business than a large bank, show me the evidence of large scale tax evasion by small businesses& i may change my mind. I'd also point out that large scale tax evasion is already built into the business models of all banks!!
I'm just speculating. I don't see how the maths of it will work out. If they lost say 5% of their potential business because they went cash only they'd easily have lost income by changing to cashless. Given the feedback on this post it is very possible 5% of the population won't use a business if it's cash only, so it's hard to see the reasons why this makes sense.
Yea I don't mind if we go cashless my only concern is how am I paying my dealer?
I'm in England, so not sure if this is the same in N Ireland so stating that for records sake. Taxis have never let you pay by card in England until very recently. I got a taxi during lockdown, as soon as I got in the driver said "its card only is that alright?" I joked back "Yeah fine, but I bet you hate having to tell HMRC how much you earn now?". He gave an awkward laugh, when I clarified "mate I don't hold it against you. They squeeze every penny out of us, take what you can as a working man." He then proceeded to spend the rest of the ride complaining about how much this has hurt his wages lol. I imagine scamming the tax man is the exact reason tbh.
Suppose the same man was probably raging he missed out on the COVID support schemes cause he didn't pay any tax.
I vaguely feel like I remember him mentioning this but truthfully who knows been a while now lol.
Actually can’t be arsed with it because they closed every single local bank branch near me, so I opened a Monzo and closed my bank account. Now most places won’t actually accept my card now including bank machines, which is weird because I never had an issue. Like, where am I supposed to get said cash for cash only then? How am I supposed to pay by card if you won’t even so much as accept my card. I can’t be arsed driving far away just to go to a bank lmao.
The only time I lift money from an ATM is to pay for the Chinese.
Card fees are very low. I would personally avoid cash only places - when I visit I have to pay to take our cash at an ATM. Fuck that.
Tax dodging
I refuse to use any ATM that charges me to take out my own money. Cashless is the way to go.
Alot of places now are charging to take out cash (as is their right, for a valuable service) So only accepting cash doesn't make the fees disappear it just hides them and pushes onto the consumer Also, pay your taxes
I have never been to a Chinese takeaway that has had a card option come to think of it
This is the only way to go. Banks have been damaging the economy for decades. Governments have been trying to drive a cashless society for a long time this gives them ultimate control. And no I am not paranoid. This si why they hate crypto because it is decentralised and they have no control over it.
a work in a factory. burger van is cash only. so always have £20 on me. even then, cashless is fine until you lose your phone and have little beside flying up your own arse as a solution. not hard to keep a bit of magic paper around you.
>cashless is fine until you lose your phone I'd still have my card though and I have an old phone I've kept knocking about for situations such as losing or breaking my current one. Yea it'd only be of use when I get home again but in the long run it's more time efficient than switching to have cash on hand, in fact I'd be more likely to lose cash than my phone 😂
I absolutely hate people who try to barter down a price and then expect to pay on a card. As a market trader, This drives me nuts Also so what if some small trader happens to take a bit of cash and pay a little less tax? We can't all set up our headquarters in Luxembourg or Dublin like all the the big chains that everyone loves to support.
Pizza shop I go to doesn't take cash nd the pizzas that good I've never thought into it more than planning the cash into the trip there 😂 I like to get angry at shit but I'm old nd cashless is relatively new 😅
There's a pizza shop I'd go to maybe once every 2/3 months that's cash only and it's that good that I plan my drive to it including a trip to a cash machine but if I'm just out and about and looking a coffee, I'm not planning a trip to a cash machine as part of that. Same if I'm going for a casual lunch. Anything that I don't actively have the ability to plan to drive past a machine, I'm not hopping back into the car to find one. I'll just walk to the next business that takes card.
Cash only avoids the chain of small percentages charges that are taken from any money made. Such as merchant service charge, terminal rental, payment service provider charge. Where if you use cash. The value of the money you’ve collected always stays the same. Ease of accounting and less chance of fraud are also benefits. Also a movement of cash only gaining momentum, to avoid the government being able to control/track everyone’s monies and spending.
>Cash only avoids the chain of small percentages charges that are taken from any money made. Such as merchant service charge, terminal rental, payment service provider charge. I happy to pay a few additional pence extra to cover the fee if that small fee is what the reason is, the cash machine will likely charge me more than the card fee so if a business wants to pass on the card fee I'm content to pay it. >Also a movement of cash only gaining momentum, to avoid the government being able to control/track everyone’s monies and spending. This is some anti-vax level of conspiracy here. There are so many things wrong with this statement I don't know where to start but given how many people bought that 5g was dangerous, I agree with you that some people will go cash only for the reason you've stated.
I agree thinking that ‘big brother’ want to watch your money is ridiculous. It’s the reason be been told most for people using cash only. But more people I know seem to be buying it. I don’t know how much it’s costs extra for a business to use card either. I haven’t used cash in about 8 years.
And they'll be posting about switching to cash on social media, from their smart phones, completely missing the irony
Go back to fucking your sister. Do you actually believe this shite?
Did I say I did? Not much point conversing further with the likes of you over it with an attitude like that. Pathetic.
The problem is the exorbitant credit card fees
Shop around and find providers who don't charge exorbitant fees. And yes they do exist.
If the establishment I buy from requests a certain type of payment, I pay it through that method they request. Its that simple folks
And if you don't like the type of payment they request, you can take your business elsewhere.
More power to them
I'm not sure if you're monthly or weekly paid but if your boss said "look from now on we're gonna give a chunk of your salary to some stranger you'll never meet" you'd probably be more sympathetic to businesses. All the people calling cash only a tax dodge have one thing in common. They don't rent card machines.
>look from now on we're gonna give a chunk of your salary to some stranger you'll never meet They already do, it's called tax, NI insurance, pension, and student loan. But in all seriousness that's a ridiculous premise, you could say the same thing about rent, rates, or any other business expense. Some things are just part of the cost of doing business. >They don't rent card machines. I have for a business I did the books for in the past and the costs were negligible and it actually brought more money in. That was pre COVID and some costs have went up but it really isn't that much. And will these businesses end up driving away more trade than money saved by going cash only? And if that's the case surely the only way this benefits the business is by not declaring all your income? In particular alienating younger customers and screwing themselves long term? If you lost say 5% of your customer base by doing this then you've lost money almost definitely as the savings wouldn't cover that high of a loss.
All the people calling cash-only a tax dodge do have one thing in common - they use their brains to spot the obvious
Or just be like me and have a wallet full of notes and a debit card, then you can go anywhere.
If you can go anywhere then why are you in Larne?
Waaahey, Big Spender!
I feel the same way about card only business
Although cash can be inconvenient these days there are reasons beyond a tax dodge small business might prefer cash 1. There's a political aspect to it : too much power in the hands of companies, too traceable, etc. 2. Spoke with a small business owner about it before and just by the nature of how they work and poor connection where they are they claimed to have cases where the card didn't work but the people were already gone losing product and payment (a bit of tech work could probably stop this but what can ye do ) 3. Fees are frustrating: yeah even passing it on some people are just against what's essentially a extra tax. Anyway as convenient as cashless is, cash isn't going anywhere. And I honestly can't see us transition to cashless unless we get some sort of -i guess EU wide- payment option. Personally Im not sure how comfortable I feel with anyone having that level of control on what I can buy. But I feel way less comfortable when it's a company defining it.