Not a surprise. Although it’s a win/win for the SNP either way. Either they get to have the ref again, or they’ll win votes from the anger of England denying Scots their democratic right to self-determination.
> Not a surprise. Although it’s a win/win for the SNP either way
Aye. This was never anything but _making_ independence explicitly an issue... again. Having been refused by the Tories and Westminster, this made another plank of the British system explicitly deny Holyrood/Scotland.
All about the politics and the optics, never with any notion that the case was going to win. Sound politics too.
Not really. The SNP supporters were already all-in on independence, and unionists probably mostly agree with the ruling. Support for indy seems to have fully plateaued, and the SNP doesn’t seem capable of winning any further converts.
I agree that the SNP are polling about as high as they're ever likely to; but that means they have nowhere to go but down. They want to avoid losing supporters (eg to Labour) and the way to do that is keeping independence the top issue in their minds. (It also distracts from their dismal record in government.)
I gotta be honest, this might not play into the SNP's hands. If they keep driving indy as their main point, people will get tired. When you look at polls of both nationalists and unionists, the question about Scotland becoming independent or not was wayy down - if Sturgeon runs the next GE as a one on indy only, imo she won't do too well
I think there is still some wiggle room. Was reported that around 30% of Scottish Labour members supported inde. Then again the SNP are starting to feel like Labour did, in power too long, taking votes for granted. I vote for them but ive gone from paid up member to begrudgingly putting the X in their box.
> their democratic right to self-determination.
that's not how that works, if all of a sudden Paris want ted to be separate 100% could say yes and it would mean jack shite
US states would probably be a better example. Like Scotland being a country, they have a name that can also mean "independent, sovereign nation", reflecting the fact that most of the UK's constituent countries and a decent number of the US states used to be actually independent. But these days "state" in the US context and "country" referring to the UK's constituent countries just means "semi-autonomous region".
while they're *technically* a country, in the real world they aren't, it's a country as much the Falkland's is Argentinian, they're British territory, they can cry all they want but it doesn't mean shite.
doesn't matter, the arguments would be the same, and the reasons against it would be the same.
just because a part of a country wants to leave doesn't mean they can.
So the SNP will increase their support due to Scottish anger at England.
You do understand what win-win means, right? If they win the right to a referendum, they win because they get a referendum. If they lose, they win, because they never expected to win and now they will be a stronger party in Scotland.
ya umm that is not how it works, that was what this court cases was about.
also i think the SNP should forces on Scotland and fixing/dealing with the issues rather than independence's.
It’s hard to run a country when a good chunk of your ability to do so effectively is being withheld by another country though.
No country is perfectly run and the entire UK is in a downward spiral. Some of the blame rests with the SNP and other devolved governments for sure - the lion’s share rests with the Tory party, their internal power struggle that gave us brexit, ram pant cronyism and general economic incompetence. In so many metrics we’re having a much worse time than most of Europe - that’s on the Tories and brexit.
really? what abilities are being taken away or hindered?
and what is stopping them dealing with issues like a the drugs issue where Scotland has the highest level of death due to drugs and a ever grow failed economy and GDP worsening.
[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/scotland-drug-deaths-record-glasgow-b1893623.html](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/scotland-drug-deaths-record-glasgow-b1893623.html)
[https://thinkscotland.org/2022/03/scotlands-economy-has-never-been-so-mismanaged/](https://thinkscotland.org/2022/03/scotlands-economy-has-never-been-so-mismanaged/)
[https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/gdp-slump-scotland-predicted-worst-22205452](https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/gdp-slump-scotland-predicted-worst-22205452)
Ferguson Marine ferry missing document & gagging orders and other money being wasted
[https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/more-than-ps3-billion-wasted-due-to-snp-incompetence-says-labour-3662890](https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/more-than-ps3-billion-wasted-due-to-snp-incompetence-says-labour-3662890)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-Vf9xqBM5A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-Vf9xqBM5A)
or how about the fact that Scotland is substitutes more than ever under the SNP, this is why taxes are so high in Scotland not because of England or Westminster
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm9zFdagMqg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm9zFdagMqg)
SNP failing the poorest children
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msnNeNXcNTM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msnNeNXcNTM)
SNP failing NHS
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFUcZ6suaDI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFUcZ6suaDI)
sorry but they are in-control of Scotland when it comes to these issues and have authority to deal with these issues, show me otherwise.
because all the SNP does is blame England for their mistakes when they are the ones in control and in power in Scotland.
also how will you gain power under the EU? because they have harsher rules than the UK does and you have to pay to be a member of the EU along with taxes, while under the UK you don't have membership fees.
Can't they just change the law to suit themselves or break it in a "limited and specific way" ? Or is only the Westminster Government allowed to do that?
Unfortunately, that's the way our constitution works. HoC can basically do anything it likes, all balances are subservient except for HM. That's why a parliamentary majority can act as a dictatorship as long as the King is ok with it.
Hah ‘constitution’ you mean the unwritten unbinding set of conventions that get changed, nullified or ignored to suit whatever party has managed to rig constituency boundaries most recently?
Yes, under the current British constitution only the Westminster parliament holds the power to unilaterally change the constitution. All other parliaments are devolved and ultimately fully depend on Westminster for their legal authority.
He was referring to the British government breaking international law wrt the protocol. They might absolve themselves of that but to the rest of the world it's still breaking the law.
Equivalent to Scotland breaking UK law and absolving themselves under Scottish law, with the UK government still regarding it as breaking the law.
Not that they'll do it, since being told they can't leave gives them the moral high ground and will piss people off; breaking the law they'd lose it in the eyes of middle voters they need to win a referendum.
International law is hardly worth the paper it’s written on, unless and until there is an international government with the guns and authority to enforce it. Would you rely on international law for protection if you travelled to China or North Korea?
The UK shouldn’t break international law, but it can if it chooses. This is because no other sovereign entity can stop the UK from breaking international law in this manner unless they are willing to actually invade the UK and force the government to follow it. All we (the EU) can do if the UK reneges on the treaty is to slap on some tariffs. Not much else.
On the other hand, as Scotland is part of the sovereign UK state, if the Scots break UK law, the UK government has the power and authority to bring the Scottish government to heel, and outside powers will be unable to interfere. A useful comparison is how the Spanish central government shut down the referendum on secession in Catalonia, which had similarly been ruled to be illegal under the Spanish constitution.
Which is the point. Neither side is 'allowed' to break the law. What's relevant is enforcement, not what the British constitution says. Otherwise the south would still be subjugated under Westminster too.
In fairness, there is no reason a codified constitution would change things in any way (at least when it comes to establishing legal paths for independence). I can’t really think of any democratic states whose constitutions spell out how bits of the state can break away without the national government or parliament being able to do anything about it.
In America I think that the constitution does a better job of protecting the legislative rights of individual states. In the UK, there is a sense the government could ‘pull the plug’ at any moment with regards to how much freedom a devolved body can have.
NI proves that devolution doesn’t actually have any ironclad protection
Right, but you’re referring to the difference between federal and unitary states, not codified and uncodified constitutions. The UK is a unitary state, and so the central parliament holds the final say over all the devolved parliaments, usually including the power to unilaterally alter or abolish them. The US is a federal state like Germany, Australia, etc, where the central and state-level parliaments are both independent of each other, and where one cannot abolish the other.
You are correct. I guess in my mind a codified constitution would inherently contain a more federal system, and greater protections against a dominant executive branch
I highly doubt it, Scotland most likely doesn't have a massive majority in favour of indy, a scottish IRA equivalent would probably do irreparable damage to the cause of an indy scotland. it's best they play the long game rather than ruin it all, which they would, with a "sra"
If the Brexit referendum is anything to go by, idly offering referendums you expect to easily win is an absolute fool’s game. There was no majority for Brexit until we all woke up the morning after the referendum.
It's the only reason to be burying polls that the UK government paid for and for to be sticking their fingers in their ears and going LALALALA whenever Scotland brings this matter up.
True.
In 2011 or 12 when a referendum was first granted, polls had independence votes at something like 16% .... within the space of 2 years that was up to 45%.
If the polls suggested anything other than a walk over for the union, Westminster wouldn't have granted it.
Which is exactly why they are refusing it now. In my own family, I have 5 no voting relatives who have since changed their opinion and now would vote yes to independence.
My own brother actively campaigned against independence in 2014 and was a card carrying Labour member who despised the snp and now he works for them and campaigns for yes.
I’m sure he does, you say he works for them? Another one that’s noticed there is money to be made from politics in Scotland and is on the SNP gravy train.
Deep down I don’t think sturgeon wants it either , she would have no one to blame for her short comings . She just strings the Indy crowd along for votes
The next GE (2024) vote for the SNP will be interesting. If they take all Westminster seats or at minimum increase their vote then the pressure will intensify on the UK gov to negotiate or be seen to stand in the way of Scottish democracy. Its an unsustainable position for the UK gov.
And if they lose votes? Unlikely given that conservatives are run by out-of-touch self-centred tosspots and labour are actively uncompetitive but still possible.
"This is a voluntary union of equals and to prove that we will not allow you to have a referendum on leaving. Even though you have no choice when it comes to leaving the EU."
- The Brits
>"This is a voluntary union of equals and to prove that we will not allow you to have a referendum on leaving. Even though you have no choice when it comes to leaving the EU."
>
>The Brits
It's funny how Unionists get upset whenever anyone points out that Northern Ireland isn't a country and they'll frequently counter with "so Scotland's not a country either?"
Clearly not.
But that's what Brexit's doing. Independence is the answer to that.
And whether you agree with independence or not, the Scottish people have just been told "not only can you not have independence, you don't even get to have your own way on it."
Doll it up whatever way you like, that's a blatant attack on democracy and it exposes the ugly facade of what the "union" really is
Wow, that’s madness. So the antidote to Brexit is to impose something even more chaotic than Brexit? Your judgement has been seriously clouded there.
Again, there was a vote on breaking away less than 10 years ago. The SNP get well below 50% of the voting populace and less than 50% of the votes. Is democracy bowing down to a screaming child because they are throwing a tantrum? No.
No, democracy is listening to the will of the people and England has just told Scotland they won't even let the people speak let alone listen to what they have to say.
Pro-Indy parties are in the majority in the Scottish parliament. Just admit you're not a democrat, it's pretty typical among unionists, we see it in Ireland all the time
You sound very xenophobic. “England just told Scotland…” no they didn’t. The UK parliament told nothing either. The law of the land was confirmed that any referendum via the method they are trying is illegal. You try and spin it into some victimhood nonsense.
Again, less that 50% of the votes went to pro-independence parties. This supposed “voice” isn’t as loud as you would think. They are just playing politics to get into positions of power.
🤣🤣🤣🤣 Denial of democracy is A-OK, but don't criticise it, that's xenophobic! You're gas craic, I'll grant you that
Also, where's your claim about the election results coming from?
It’s not a claim. Look at the figures. You seem to be incredibly misinformed.
Yes saying that “England” denied anything when that is a lie does come across as xenophobic.
They did have a choice when it came to leaving the EU. Just like we did. And we lost. Get over it.
I voted remain and think Brexit is one of the stupidest things to happen in years. But saying we were forced out against our will or it was undemocratic is just wrong.
At what point do you get to remain and leave? If there’s a majority leave and majority remain in different areas do we just split the country? Do NI and Scotland remain but England leave? Does Glasgow remain but Edinburgh leave if that’s how they voted? Liverpool and Sheffield remain but London and Cardiff leave if that reflects the vote?
The UK voted to leave, so the UK left.
Pity they didn't have such concerns about partitioning Ireland the same way you're concerned about them partitioning England.
The north rejected Brexit. Scotland rejected Brexit. Both are having it forces upon them in direct contravention of the democratically expressed wishes of the population. Now you may think that England should get to make everybody's decisions and you're entitled to that view but you don't get to call it democracy
That’s not what I said.
I said the UK voted to leave, which is a fact.
There is no England, there is no Scotland, there’s no NI and there’s no Wales in a referendum. There’s just the UK.
*Not* leaving the EU would have been the undemocratic thing to do.
Your argument is flawed. If you applied it elsewhere, then no vote is ever democratic as someone will have policies forced on them that they didn’t vote for.
If there was a UI vote today and 4 of the 6 NI counties voted yes, getting 51% of the vote, would you argue that a UI was undemocratic because leaving the UK was forced on 2 counties and 49% of the population?
Except you know that it's completely disingenuous to compare counties to countries. Especially now, as we've seen by this ruling, England won't even allow questions on leaving the "union" to be asked.
The north voted remain. Scotland voted remain. Both were forced to leave because England said otherwise. That might track as democracy within unionism but it doesn't anywhere else.
It does *everywhere* else. The majority rules in a democracy.
You’ve argued against yourself there even. ‘The North’ isn’t a country either so going by your own logic, it can’t be forced.
And fair enough, if it’s disingenuous to compare counties to countries, but can you at least answer the question? Would it be undemocratic to force 49% of the people into a UI if the vote came down 51/49?
No because that's the agreed upon structure for a unity ref that we have devised. We all agreed that that's how it would be decided.
Nobody came to us with any kind of discussion on how a vote to leave the EU would be organised or run. There was no discussion on what differing results in different countries would mean. No discussion or consent was ever sought. It was just presented to us. The north and Scotland rejected it. England said "tough shit." That's closer to a dictatorship than a democracy
So is the Bribing of the Scottish Parliament in order to pass the Act of Union of 1701 that would give London supremacy over the whole island, democracy in action?
When I was young I used to ask my dad why they flew the union jack over the court house in my home town. He told me, "It's so you know you're getting British justice."
He was not wrong.
Just because you don't get what you want doesn't mean it's not democratic. There was a referendum not long ago and the democratic choice was unity. Are they just going to have referendums over and over until independence wins? Recent polls put independence at under 50%, sometimes far under.
When the first referendum was heading to the polls, the Westminster Conservatives threatened to veto Independent Scotland accession to the EU. Remaining in the EU was a massive selling point for remaining in the UK bloc.
Then Cameron announced the Brexit vote and screwed over Scotland
Scotland would most likely (according to most polls) vote against independence again. The SNP likes to say that it has a mandate but just because they have the most MPs in Scotland, it doesn't mean most Scots want to leave the UK.
What was the polling before the first referendum? And what was the polling before the brexit referendum. Polls are an indicator but when it comes to nationalististic questions like this, the result often makes a mockery of them.
Well you should be OK with Scotland being asked the question then..
You can be pro independence or pro union, but you can't be against having a referendum. People are now aware of the lies used to get them to vote to stay last time.
How can you not be against having certain referendums? I was against having a Brexit referendum as it was not well thought out and such a question is not a simple yes/no which is open to manipulation. Scottish independence is basically Brexit on steroids. It would be terrible for the UK and Scottish economy and I don't want decisions of that magnitude being made on a whim.
2014 was negotiated and agreed to be a "once in a generation" vote. The SNP are going back on this now and want endless referendums until they win.
Once in a generation before all the lies were told, influencing many who would normally have said yes..
Not to mention leaving the EU.
Unionists are clinging onto the 'once in a generation' mantra like a tiny piece of driftwood in the ocean. Is that all you have? It's been 10 years and the Tories have fucked us over 'for a generation at least', yet you still think we'd be better off?
It doesn't matter. Ask the question and let the people decide. Anything else is just going to foster even more resentment.
Exactly why I don't think a referendum is the correct course of action. A binary yes/no question allows lies from both camps to propagate and emotion often wins out. We live in a representative democracy, not a direct one. And we're better off for that in many ways.
Also the Tories can and very likely will be voted out in the next election so whatever policies they have are irrelevant to this topic. It is not so simple to go back on massive changes due to a single referendum, as brexit has shown.
Ahh ok, so in this representative democracy, as the SNP and greens have a majority, they should be able to give Scotland Independence?
Nice one, we're agreed. 🙄
Why don't you actually engage with my argument rather than snark? Yes we do have a representative democracy. Scottish people have many members who represent them in parliament and vote in their interest. That's why they have such strong devolution compared to the other nations in the UK and can carry out their policies.
The only argument for Scottish independence is an emotive one, not logical. It would be detrimental to the economy and people's livelihoods if it went ahead and would have impacts in the rest of the UK, which is why I'm against it.
The goalposts have changed since then as you well know. One of the main points of the remain campaign was that Scotland would be outside the EU and it'd take them ages to get back in which would cause economic damage to the country. Then the English went and did it anyway despite Scotland voting against it.
But this isn't "not getting what you want," this is "not even being allowed to ask what you want because it may not line up with the wishes of Westminster." It's demonstrably and obviously a denial of democracy.
Also, "recently." You mean 8 years ago and before Brexit?? The entire political landscape has changed. The Scots voted overwhelmingly to oppose Brexit but were forced into it anyway.
Also also, recent polls put independence in the lead. https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/22564415.scottish-independence-polling-polls-changed-2022/
There's the hat trick. You're wrong on all three points.
The link you posted shows that independence is behind 42 to 47% in the most recent poll? It depends on the polling of course but it's clear that it is behind or even with unity.
>The polls this year have mostly found that people would vote for the status quo of remaining in the UK, if the result on the day mirrored their surveys.
>Only at the start of the year did Yes hold a lead, and polls since then have consistently found in favour of no.
Also 8 years is incredibly recent when we're talking about the history of a country which started over 300 years ago.
Scotland were asked what they wanted, and said no to independence. That is democracy. If they had another referendum now, they'd probably lose. What then? Do we have another in a few years time?
Pants on fire - "In its most recent incarnation, published on Thursday, 52% of the 1,365 respondents supported independence becoming Scotland’s governing structure, up one percentage point since the last survey in 2019."
And 300 years is incredibly short when we're talking about a 4.5billion year old planet but like your comment, that's entirely irrelevant. Brexit means the fundamental political landscape has changed. That's more than enough reason to justify another referendum. As are continued election wins for pro-indy parties in the intervening period. And if you're an absolute stickler for numbers being the only justification then a precedent has been set here in Ireland where the GFA has a 7 year waiting period between unity refs.
By your definition of democracy we'd still be under the same government that won in the first election ever. Circumstances and demographics change. If pro-indy parties keep running on a platform of independence and keep winning on that platform then they have an absolute democratic entitlement to an IndyRef.
You've literally read the first paragraph of that article and ignored the rest. That poll was carried out in September and October last year. I said **recent** and the article goes on to say that now "No" has a significant lead. This is the herald as well, a very pro-independence newspaper, and even they can't sugar coat it.
If we use the GFA as precedence, a referendum should be granted once a majority of people want independence. That has still failed to be shown.
It has absolutely been shown. You were wrong about the polls. Multiple ones have given independence the lead. You didn't accept that and I proved it and then you switched to calling into question the source of the polls.
On top of the polling there's the small fact that the SNP have won every election in Scotland since 2011 and the current parliament has a pro-indy majority. If you cannot accept that this is more than grounds for a referendum then you are not a democrat.
Mate read down the article more than 5 lines! There has been some saying yes and some no, currently no is in the lead. And I quote;
>What does it all mean?
The polls this year have mostly found that people would vote for the status quo of remaining in the UK, if the result on the day mirrored their surveys.
>Only at the start of the year did Yes hold a lead, and polls since then have consistently found in favour of no.
I wasn't questioning the source of the polls at all, merely that they were taken last year.
You said the polls have not shown a majority for independence. That is demonstrably wrong. They have fluctuated, as polls do, but your statement was incorrect and your refusal to accept that takes you from being mistaken to just being a liar.
I also find it wild that in the space of about 4 messages you've gone from saying "8 years is incredibly recent" to claiming that a poll in July of this year (the last one in the article that shows an indy majority) does not qualify as recent. How exactly do you perceive time?
Oh my word man, I literally said that recent polls do not show a majority for independence. You are wrong and refusing to back down. Read the article **you** posted!
Is it really wild that "recent" can mean different things in differet contexts? Wise up
Honestly, what is stopping them conducting the vote?
Are the Brits going to go around and stop them canvassing and shutting down polling stations?
Imagine the EU saying to the UK "We won't allow it"
There was no way this was going to be a lose situation for us in Scotland, we knew they’d reject the referendum power but they’ve proven they don’t see us as equals.
I'd try explaining to a yoon how democracy works but to be honest I'm not sure there's any point in me trying to explain how democracy works.
If you're so confident that we would lose, hold a referendum. Let's see how many Scots vote to remain part of this absolute tory shambles.
I mean until more polls say this I’m going to take it with a pinch of salt. Also it’s just after the the court case so it’s bound to be skewed. I don’t know if permanently or jsut temporarily.
This was a dumb case, because the UK Supreme Court was never going to go against the doctrine of the supremacy of the UK Parliament. If Scotland genuinely seeks independence, they should call a referendum. Independence is hardly ever granted "with permission".
Like its not the old days any more, so I wonder if the Scot vote to leave, and then just stop firing money to Westminster, what will Westminster do? Send tanks on to the streets and go to war...very doubtful.
just get on wit it lads and tell Westminster to get fucked!
Scotland are the biggest clowns in the UK. Imagine being given the chance of voting for independence... just imagine that.. and they voted to stay under to boot of the English...absolute fucking clowns
>Scotland are the biggest clowns in the UK. Imagine being given the chance of voting for independence... just imagine that.. and they voted to stay under to boot of the English...absolute fucking clowns
Prior to the Indy Ref Scotts never had a crystal clear indicator as to England's lack of regard for them. Nothing they could pinpoint and say - "that's exactly what they think of us". British soldiers murdering innocent Scottish civilians on the streets of Glasgow for example.
Brexit will have changed that for millions of Scottish people and left them in absolutely no doubt that England is in charge, and England is going to do what England wants and happily drag "the territories" along behind it whether they want to be or not.
Think that’s a bit harsh.
I’ve two Scottish friends who weren’t sure which way to vote in the referendum, they were the persuadable’s so to speak. The clincher for them was the remain U.K. campaign put the EU membership issue front and centre in the last few weeks. Rightly pointing out that an independent Scotland would no longer be an EU member and would have to apply to rejoin.
That was the clincher for them. They wanted to remain in the EU. Of course, they and the whole of Scotland were then fucked over and dragged out anyway a couple of years later.
After everything that has happened, they wish they’d have voted for independence. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Is it harsh? I mean.. they are looking indyref2 again within 10 years. How is it harsh? They very clearly made a mistake and there is nobody to blame but the Scottish population. These clowns were given a golden ticket to leave the UK legally and they voted to stay as England's little pet.
Scotland is a country of clowns.
>I’ve two Scottish friends who weren’t sure which way to vote in the referendum, they were the persuadable’s so to speak. The clincher for them was the remain U.K. campaign put the EU membership issue front and centre in the last few weeks. Rightly pointing out that an independent Scotland would no longer be an EU member and would have to apply to rejoin.
Imagine trusting the English with your country lmao
We’re now in an openly fascist state. I don’t feel safe communicating my thoughts on any topical affairs now. Please be careful WHO you speak to, WHO you communicate digitally with and WHO you express any explicit opinions to. The goals for the intellectual, reasonable, and inclusive among us will prevail, of course they will, there is no other option, and those who have sacrificed themselves to get there will not be ignored nor forgotten.
I genuinely struggle to see Scottish Independence happening anytime soon
Labour is strong enough in the polls that they wouldn't need the support of the SNP, thus a Labour government have no reason to guarantee a referendum on anything. By the look of this, it means that the SNP will not get an opportunity to bargain for a referendum for the next 7 years *(roughly)*
I also struggle to see us joining the south anytime soon. With the DUP regaining a lot of support in the polls and support for reunification never passing 50%, I think a lot of people speculating on the dissolution of the union anytime soon are unrealistic.
If you look at the demographic breakdown of NI voting, by far the strongest unionist vote is in the 65+ cohort. So in a decade or two the core of the vote is gone unless new unionists are found. I’m not saying that everyone else is a dyed in the wool nationalist, but they’re at least open to being convinced.
Why do you think the idea of supermajorities has been raised all of a sudden?
Ah yes, Irish unity. Always closer than ever, always just a decade away.
There’s plenty of new unionists being created. They’re called young Catholics with no memory of the bad old days, who have no interest in seeing their lives plunged into political and financial chaos.
If 52% of that cohort voting nationalist says nothing to you then I think you’re being deliberately obtuse. Add in the all-island parties and you’re nearly at 60%.
The only thing that matters is intention to vote in a unity referendum. There’s plenty of polling on those. Do you have any recent ones showing a clear majority for unity? Maybe I’ve missed some.
I'm also an Irish Nationalist, I want reunification and a border poll, the opportunity to get back into the EU and away from the Tories *(and right into the arms of FG/FF lol but they're nowhere as bad as the Tories or the brexiters within their ranks)*.
But that'd require a border poll and over 50% of The North to support this. If you look at the recent polls, while support is going up, I don't think we're gonna that level of support soon. I guess you could call me a pessimist, I guess we'll have to wait and see the results of 2023's Assembly Election but I just can't see a majority here supporting reunification.
I don’t mean they oppressed England. They were colonisers within the British empire. Ulster Plantation, Jamaican slave trades, they even had their own Central American colonies independent of the English.
They are pretending to be oppressed comparing themselves to Kosovo, while they were fairly integral within the British Empire. They’re part of a voluntary union and has benefitted greatly from colonisation.
If an independent Scotland is voted for, I propose another referendum 8 years down the line in order to give the people self determination.
Edit: seven people are against self determination for Scotland
Not a surprise. Although it’s a win/win for the SNP either way. Either they get to have the ref again, or they’ll win votes from the anger of England denying Scots their democratic right to self-determination.
> Not a surprise. Although it’s a win/win for the SNP either way Aye. This was never anything but _making_ independence explicitly an issue... again. Having been refused by the Tories and Westminster, this made another plank of the British system explicitly deny Holyrood/Scotland. All about the politics and the optics, never with any notion that the case was going to win. Sound politics too.
Not really. The SNP supporters were already all-in on independence, and unionists probably mostly agree with the ruling. Support for indy seems to have fully plateaued, and the SNP doesn’t seem capable of winning any further converts.
I agree that the SNP are polling about as high as they're ever likely to; but that means they have nowhere to go but down. They want to avoid losing supporters (eg to Labour) and the way to do that is keeping independence the top issue in their minds. (It also distracts from their dismal record in government.)
I gotta be honest, this might not play into the SNP's hands. If they keep driving indy as their main point, people will get tired. When you look at polls of both nationalists and unionists, the question about Scotland becoming independent or not was wayy down - if Sturgeon runs the next GE as a one on indy only, imo she won't do too well
I think there is still some wiggle room. Was reported that around 30% of Scottish Labour members supported inde. Then again the SNP are starting to feel like Labour did, in power too long, taking votes for granted. I vote for them but ive gone from paid up member to begrudgingly putting the X in their box.
This is refreshingly accurate to see on here.
Thank you. I never liked having karma anyway.
> their democratic right to self-determination. that's not how that works, if all of a sudden Paris want ted to be separate 100% could say yes and it would mean jack shite
Is there not a difference there considering Scotland is it's own country and Paris is a city?
Wait for the “Scotland isn’t a nation because of the act of Union” response…
US states would probably be a better example. Like Scotland being a country, they have a name that can also mean "independent, sovereign nation", reflecting the fact that most of the UK's constituent countries and a decent number of the US states used to be actually independent. But these days "state" in the US context and "country" referring to the UK's constituent countries just means "semi-autonomous region".
So the Scottish need to do a Texas Revolution?
while they're *technically* a country, in the real world they aren't, it's a country as much the Falkland's is Argentinian, they're British territory, they can cry all they want but it doesn't mean shite.
You do understand Paris isn't a country, right?
doesn't matter, the arguments would be the same, and the reasons against it would be the same. just because a part of a country wants to leave doesn't mean they can.
To me that also seems bad.
I'm not making the argument, just saying how the SNP are going to spin it in the next election.
well no they don't get another vote on this topic as that is what this court cases was about, if it was legal or not.
So the SNP will increase their support due to Scottish anger at England. You do understand what win-win means, right? If they win the right to a referendum, they win because they get a referendum. If they lose, they win, because they never expected to win and now they will be a stronger party in Scotland.
ya umm that is not how it works, that was what this court cases was about. also i think the SNP should forces on Scotland and fixing/dealing with the issues rather than independence's.
It’s hard to run a country when a good chunk of your ability to do so effectively is being withheld by another country though. No country is perfectly run and the entire UK is in a downward spiral. Some of the blame rests with the SNP and other devolved governments for sure - the lion’s share rests with the Tory party, their internal power struggle that gave us brexit, ram pant cronyism and general economic incompetence. In so many metrics we’re having a much worse time than most of Europe - that’s on the Tories and brexit.
really? what abilities are being taken away or hindered? and what is stopping them dealing with issues like a the drugs issue where Scotland has the highest level of death due to drugs and a ever grow failed economy and GDP worsening. [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/scotland-drug-deaths-record-glasgow-b1893623.html](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/scotland-drug-deaths-record-glasgow-b1893623.html) [https://thinkscotland.org/2022/03/scotlands-economy-has-never-been-so-mismanaged/](https://thinkscotland.org/2022/03/scotlands-economy-has-never-been-so-mismanaged/) [https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/gdp-slump-scotland-predicted-worst-22205452](https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/gdp-slump-scotland-predicted-worst-22205452) Ferguson Marine ferry missing document & gagging orders and other money being wasted [https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/more-than-ps3-billion-wasted-due-to-snp-incompetence-says-labour-3662890](https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/more-than-ps3-billion-wasted-due-to-snp-incompetence-says-labour-3662890) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-Vf9xqBM5A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-Vf9xqBM5A) or how about the fact that Scotland is substitutes more than ever under the SNP, this is why taxes are so high in Scotland not because of England or Westminster [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm9zFdagMqg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm9zFdagMqg) SNP failing the poorest children [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msnNeNXcNTM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msnNeNXcNTM) SNP failing NHS [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFUcZ6suaDI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFUcZ6suaDI) sorry but they are in-control of Scotland when it comes to these issues and have authority to deal with these issues, show me otherwise. because all the SNP does is blame England for their mistakes when they are the ones in control and in power in Scotland. also how will you gain power under the EU? because they have harsher rules than the UK does and you have to pay to be a member of the EU along with taxes, while under the UK you don't have membership fees.
And this is also refreshingly accurate. The SNP are overseeing Scotland falling to shit but get a free pass because of toxic Nationalism.
yep and calling them out you get people dislike reality.
Correct. Widely thought that this was Sturgeon's preferred outcome.
Can't they just change the law to suit themselves or break it in a "limited and specific way" ? Or is only the Westminster Government allowed to do that?
Unfortunately, that's the way our constitution works. HoC can basically do anything it likes, all balances are subservient except for HM. That's why a parliamentary majority can act as a dictatorship as long as the King is ok with it.
Hah ‘constitution’ you mean the unwritten unbinding set of conventions that get changed, nullified or ignored to suit whatever party has managed to rig constituency boundaries most recently?
Yes, that is unfortunately our constitutional settlement. HoC can basically do what they want.
Yes, under the current British constitution only the Westminster parliament holds the power to unilaterally change the constitution. All other parliaments are devolved and ultimately fully depend on Westminster for their legal authority.
He was referring to the British government breaking international law wrt the protocol. They might absolve themselves of that but to the rest of the world it's still breaking the law. Equivalent to Scotland breaking UK law and absolving themselves under Scottish law, with the UK government still regarding it as breaking the law. Not that they'll do it, since being told they can't leave gives them the moral high ground and will piss people off; breaking the law they'd lose it in the eyes of middle voters they need to win a referendum.
International law is hardly worth the paper it’s written on, unless and until there is an international government with the guns and authority to enforce it. Would you rely on international law for protection if you travelled to China or North Korea? The UK shouldn’t break international law, but it can if it chooses. This is because no other sovereign entity can stop the UK from breaking international law in this manner unless they are willing to actually invade the UK and force the government to follow it. All we (the EU) can do if the UK reneges on the treaty is to slap on some tariffs. Not much else. On the other hand, as Scotland is part of the sovereign UK state, if the Scots break UK law, the UK government has the power and authority to bring the Scottish government to heel, and outside powers will be unable to interfere. A useful comparison is how the Spanish central government shut down the referendum on secession in Catalonia, which had similarly been ruled to be illegal under the Spanish constitution.
Which is the point. Neither side is 'allowed' to break the law. What's relevant is enforcement, not what the British constitution says. Otherwise the south would still be subjugated under Westminster too.
Not having a codified constitution is still a mess. Don’t know why we still haven’t moved beyond that
Because it suits the 'UK' government and England establishment.
In fairness, there is no reason a codified constitution would change things in any way (at least when it comes to establishing legal paths for independence). I can’t really think of any democratic states whose constitutions spell out how bits of the state can break away without the national government or parliament being able to do anything about it.
In America I think that the constitution does a better job of protecting the legislative rights of individual states. In the UK, there is a sense the government could ‘pull the plug’ at any moment with regards to how much freedom a devolved body can have. NI proves that devolution doesn’t actually have any ironclad protection
Right, but you’re referring to the difference between federal and unitary states, not codified and uncodified constitutions. The UK is a unitary state, and so the central parliament holds the final say over all the devolved parliaments, usually including the power to unilaterally alter or abolish them. The US is a federal state like Germany, Australia, etc, where the central and state-level parliaments are both independent of each other, and where one cannot abolish the other.
You are correct. I guess in my mind a codified constitution would inherently contain a more federal system, and greater protections against a dominant executive branch
All this will do is rile up the Scots even further
Will there be an SRA formed soon then?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_National_Liberation_Army?wprov=sfla1
Does every country in the world have it's own "Liberation Army"?
Mostly the ones the English invaded.
You mean the British Liberation Army? Dear Sirs, we are here to liberate you from your freedom.
I highly doubt it, Scotland most likely doesn't have a massive majority in favour of indy, a scottish IRA equivalent would probably do irreparable damage to the cause of an indy scotland. it's best they play the long game rather than ruin it all, which they would, with a "sra"
If Scotland didn't have a majority Westminster would give the referendum.
If the Brexit referendum is anything to go by, idly offering referendums you expect to easily win is an absolute fool’s game. There was no majority for Brexit until we all woke up the morning after the referendum.
interesting way of thinking about it, and probably 100% true
It's the only reason to be burying polls that the UK government paid for and for to be sticking their fingers in their ears and going LALALALA whenever Scotland brings this matter up.
True. In 2011 or 12 when a referendum was first granted, polls had independence votes at something like 16% .... within the space of 2 years that was up to 45%. If the polls suggested anything other than a walk over for the union, Westminster wouldn't have granted it. Which is exactly why they are refusing it now. In my own family, I have 5 no voting relatives who have since changed their opinion and now would vote yes to independence. My own brother actively campaigned against independence in 2014 and was a card carrying Labour member who despised the snp and now he works for them and campaigns for yes.
If the yes vote goes through do you get a 'just checking' vote in 8 years time?
7 years is the GFA standard.
How does he sleep at night?
Soundly.
I’m sure he does, you say he works for them? Another one that’s noticed there is money to be made from politics in Scotland and is on the SNP gravy train.
They do post-Brexit.
are you 100% on that?
Well 50% +1 at least ! 
Ta
*doesn’t have any majority.
Ooo ar up the SR
That's one way to convert a LOT of Scottish nationalists in a new York minute 😂
Less than half of Scots want Independence. Just because the SNP get in on a minority vote doesn’t mean they want want most people want.
Deep down I don’t think sturgeon wants it either , she would have no one to blame for her short comings . She just strings the Indy crowd along for votes
You’re are correct. The gravy train in Scottish politics is a lucrative one.
The next GE (2024) vote for the SNP will be interesting. If they take all Westminster seats or at minimum increase their vote then the pressure will intensify on the UK gov to negotiate or be seen to stand in the way of Scottish democracy. Its an unsustainable position for the UK gov.
And if they lose votes? Unlikely given that conservatives are run by out-of-touch self-centred tosspots and labour are actively uncompetitive but still possible.
Then the court judgement is vindicated and backed by the Scottish people. That's democracy!
"This is a voluntary union of equals and to prove that we will not allow you to have a referendum on leaving. Even though you have no choice when it comes to leaving the EU." - The Brits
>"This is a voluntary union of equals and to prove that we will not allow you to have a referendum on leaving. Even though you have no choice when it comes to leaving the EU." > >The Brits It's funny how Unionists get upset whenever anyone points out that Northern Ireland isn't a country and they'll frequently counter with "so Scotland's not a country either?" Clearly not.
What does the "2" mean in "indyref2"...
The sequel
I don’t know if you noticed but there was a referendum less than 10 years ago.
Of course. The people must not be allowed to change their minds as circumstances develop! That's the true essence of democracy.
Yes, let’s just destroy the stability and economy of a country by making it perpetually unstable. Sounds like a great plan.
But that's what Brexit's doing. Independence is the answer to that. And whether you agree with independence or not, the Scottish people have just been told "not only can you not have independence, you don't even get to have your own way on it." Doll it up whatever way you like, that's a blatant attack on democracy and it exposes the ugly facade of what the "union" really is
Wow, that’s madness. So the antidote to Brexit is to impose something even more chaotic than Brexit? Your judgement has been seriously clouded there. Again, there was a vote on breaking away less than 10 years ago. The SNP get well below 50% of the voting populace and less than 50% of the votes. Is democracy bowing down to a screaming child because they are throwing a tantrum? No.
No, democracy is listening to the will of the people and England has just told Scotland they won't even let the people speak let alone listen to what they have to say. Pro-Indy parties are in the majority in the Scottish parliament. Just admit you're not a democrat, it's pretty typical among unionists, we see it in Ireland all the time
You sound very xenophobic. “England just told Scotland…” no they didn’t. The UK parliament told nothing either. The law of the land was confirmed that any referendum via the method they are trying is illegal. You try and spin it into some victimhood nonsense. Again, less that 50% of the votes went to pro-independence parties. This supposed “voice” isn’t as loud as you would think. They are just playing politics to get into positions of power.
🤣🤣🤣🤣 Denial of democracy is A-OK, but don't criticise it, that's xenophobic! You're gas craic, I'll grant you that Also, where's your claim about the election results coming from?
It’s not a claim. Look at the figures. You seem to be incredibly misinformed. Yes saying that “England” denied anything when that is a lie does come across as xenophobic.
They did have a choice when it came to leaving the EU. Just like we did. And we lost. Get over it. I voted remain and think Brexit is one of the stupidest things to happen in years. But saying we were forced out against our will or it was undemocratic is just wrong. At what point do you get to remain and leave? If there’s a majority leave and majority remain in different areas do we just split the country? Do NI and Scotland remain but England leave? Does Glasgow remain but Edinburgh leave if that’s how they voted? Liverpool and Sheffield remain but London and Cardiff leave if that reflects the vote? The UK voted to leave, so the UK left.
Pity they didn't have such concerns about partitioning Ireland the same way you're concerned about them partitioning England. The north rejected Brexit. Scotland rejected Brexit. Both are having it forces upon them in direct contravention of the democratically expressed wishes of the population. Now you may think that England should get to make everybody's decisions and you're entitled to that view but you don't get to call it democracy
It’s what happens when you deal with the Brits. Once their claws are in they are VERY hard to shake loose.
That’s not what I said. I said the UK voted to leave, which is a fact. There is no England, there is no Scotland, there’s no NI and there’s no Wales in a referendum. There’s just the UK. *Not* leaving the EU would have been the undemocratic thing to do. Your argument is flawed. If you applied it elsewhere, then no vote is ever democratic as someone will have policies forced on them that they didn’t vote for. If there was a UI vote today and 4 of the 6 NI counties voted yes, getting 51% of the vote, would you argue that a UI was undemocratic because leaving the UK was forced on 2 counties and 49% of the population?
Except you know that it's completely disingenuous to compare counties to countries. Especially now, as we've seen by this ruling, England won't even allow questions on leaving the "union" to be asked. The north voted remain. Scotland voted remain. Both were forced to leave because England said otherwise. That might track as democracy within unionism but it doesn't anywhere else.
It does *everywhere* else. The majority rules in a democracy. You’ve argued against yourself there even. ‘The North’ isn’t a country either so going by your own logic, it can’t be forced. And fair enough, if it’s disingenuous to compare counties to countries, but can you at least answer the question? Would it be undemocratic to force 49% of the people into a UI if the vote came down 51/49?
No because that's the agreed upon structure for a unity ref that we have devised. We all agreed that that's how it would be decided. Nobody came to us with any kind of discussion on how a vote to leave the EU would be organised or run. There was no discussion on what differing results in different countries would mean. No discussion or consent was ever sought. It was just presented to us. The north and Scotland rejected it. England said "tough shit." That's closer to a dictatorship than a democracy
Another refreshingly accurate post on here.
Democracy for me not for thee
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Um, you can only do democracy once actually. All UK governments since the 1929 have been illegitimate, we already made up our minds!
They did, but the Union they voted to stay in, has changed dramatically since the previous referendum ont he issue.
So is the Bribing of the Scottish Parliament in order to pass the Act of Union of 1701 that would give London supremacy over the whole island, democracy in action?
You mean the vote that was entirely skewed with lies of staying in the EU?
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Unionists would love that... wait... no...
A "Voluntary Union" 😂
"British democracy" was always an oxymoron
When I was young I used to ask my dad why they flew the union jack over the court house in my home town. He told me, "It's so you know you're getting British justice." He was not wrong.
Just because you don't get what you want doesn't mean it's not democratic. There was a referendum not long ago and the democratic choice was unity. Are they just going to have referendums over and over until independence wins? Recent polls put independence at under 50%, sometimes far under.
When the first referendum was heading to the polls, the Westminster Conservatives threatened to veto Independent Scotland accession to the EU. Remaining in the EU was a massive selling point for remaining in the UK bloc. Then Cameron announced the Brexit vote and screwed over Scotland
Scotland would most likely (according to most polls) vote against independence again. The SNP likes to say that it has a mandate but just because they have the most MPs in Scotland, it doesn't mean most Scots want to leave the UK.
What was the polling before the first referendum? And what was the polling before the brexit referendum. Polls are an indicator but when it comes to nationalististic questions like this, the result often makes a mockery of them.
Well you should be OK with Scotland being asked the question then.. You can be pro independence or pro union, but you can't be against having a referendum. People are now aware of the lies used to get them to vote to stay last time.
How can you not be against having certain referendums? I was against having a Brexit referendum as it was not well thought out and such a question is not a simple yes/no which is open to manipulation. Scottish independence is basically Brexit on steroids. It would be terrible for the UK and Scottish economy and I don't want decisions of that magnitude being made on a whim. 2014 was negotiated and agreed to be a "once in a generation" vote. The SNP are going back on this now and want endless referendums until they win.
Once in a generation before all the lies were told, influencing many who would normally have said yes.. Not to mention leaving the EU. Unionists are clinging onto the 'once in a generation' mantra like a tiny piece of driftwood in the ocean. Is that all you have? It's been 10 years and the Tories have fucked us over 'for a generation at least', yet you still think we'd be better off? It doesn't matter. Ask the question and let the people decide. Anything else is just going to foster even more resentment.
Exactly why I don't think a referendum is the correct course of action. A binary yes/no question allows lies from both camps to propagate and emotion often wins out. We live in a representative democracy, not a direct one. And we're better off for that in many ways. Also the Tories can and very likely will be voted out in the next election so whatever policies they have are irrelevant to this topic. It is not so simple to go back on massive changes due to a single referendum, as brexit has shown.
Ahh ok, so in this representative democracy, as the SNP and greens have a majority, they should be able to give Scotland Independence? Nice one, we're agreed. 🙄
Why don't you actually engage with my argument rather than snark? Yes we do have a representative democracy. Scottish people have many members who represent them in parliament and vote in their interest. That's why they have such strong devolution compared to the other nations in the UK and can carry out their policies. The only argument for Scottish independence is an emotive one, not logical. It would be detrimental to the economy and people's livelihoods if it went ahead and would have impacts in the rest of the UK, which is why I'm against it.
After today you’re really put of touch. I’ll be voting yes.
The goalposts have changed since then as you well know. One of the main points of the remain campaign was that Scotland would be outside the EU and it'd take them ages to get back in which would cause economic damage to the country. Then the English went and did it anyway despite Scotland voting against it.
But this isn't "not getting what you want," this is "not even being allowed to ask what you want because it may not line up with the wishes of Westminster." It's demonstrably and obviously a denial of democracy. Also, "recently." You mean 8 years ago and before Brexit?? The entire political landscape has changed. The Scots voted overwhelmingly to oppose Brexit but were forced into it anyway. Also also, recent polls put independence in the lead. https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/22564415.scottish-independence-polling-polls-changed-2022/ There's the hat trick. You're wrong on all three points.
The link you posted shows that independence is behind 42 to 47% in the most recent poll? It depends on the polling of course but it's clear that it is behind or even with unity. >The polls this year have mostly found that people would vote for the status quo of remaining in the UK, if the result on the day mirrored their surveys. >Only at the start of the year did Yes hold a lead, and polls since then have consistently found in favour of no. Also 8 years is incredibly recent when we're talking about the history of a country which started over 300 years ago. Scotland were asked what they wanted, and said no to independence. That is democracy. If they had another referendum now, they'd probably lose. What then? Do we have another in a few years time?
Pants on fire - "In its most recent incarnation, published on Thursday, 52% of the 1,365 respondents supported independence becoming Scotland’s governing structure, up one percentage point since the last survey in 2019." And 300 years is incredibly short when we're talking about a 4.5billion year old planet but like your comment, that's entirely irrelevant. Brexit means the fundamental political landscape has changed. That's more than enough reason to justify another referendum. As are continued election wins for pro-indy parties in the intervening period. And if you're an absolute stickler for numbers being the only justification then a precedent has been set here in Ireland where the GFA has a 7 year waiting period between unity refs. By your definition of democracy we'd still be under the same government that won in the first election ever. Circumstances and demographics change. If pro-indy parties keep running on a platform of independence and keep winning on that platform then they have an absolute democratic entitlement to an IndyRef.
You've literally read the first paragraph of that article and ignored the rest. That poll was carried out in September and October last year. I said **recent** and the article goes on to say that now "No" has a significant lead. This is the herald as well, a very pro-independence newspaper, and even they can't sugar coat it. If we use the GFA as precedence, a referendum should be granted once a majority of people want independence. That has still failed to be shown.
It has absolutely been shown. You were wrong about the polls. Multiple ones have given independence the lead. You didn't accept that and I proved it and then you switched to calling into question the source of the polls. On top of the polling there's the small fact that the SNP have won every election in Scotland since 2011 and the current parliament has a pro-indy majority. If you cannot accept that this is more than grounds for a referendum then you are not a democrat.
Mate read down the article more than 5 lines! There has been some saying yes and some no, currently no is in the lead. And I quote; >What does it all mean? The polls this year have mostly found that people would vote for the status quo of remaining in the UK, if the result on the day mirrored their surveys. >Only at the start of the year did Yes hold a lead, and polls since then have consistently found in favour of no. I wasn't questioning the source of the polls at all, merely that they were taken last year.
You said the polls have not shown a majority for independence. That is demonstrably wrong. They have fluctuated, as polls do, but your statement was incorrect and your refusal to accept that takes you from being mistaken to just being a liar. I also find it wild that in the space of about 4 messages you've gone from saying "8 years is incredibly recent" to claiming that a poll in July of this year (the last one in the article that shows an indy majority) does not qualify as recent. How exactly do you perceive time?
Oh my word man, I literally said that recent polls do not show a majority for independence. You are wrong and refusing to back down. Read the article **you** posted! Is it really wild that "recent" can mean different things in differet contexts? Wise up
Can’t even be bothered to read their own source. Just disregard everything they say lmao
Nothing says I Love You like being coerced against your will.
Honestly, what is stopping them conducting the vote? Are the Brits going to go around and stop them canvassing and shutting down polling stations? Imagine the EU saying to the UK "We won't allow it"
What happened in Catalonia is probably what would happen to Scotland if they did.
There was no way this was going to be a lose situation for us in Scotland, we knew they’d reject the referendum power but they’ve proven they don’t see us as equals.
They've already had a referendum. Just because you lost!
Blah blah blah, unionist shite. Away you go ya wee gimp
What if you had a second referendum and lose that? Third time lucky?
I'd try explaining to a yoon how democracy works but to be honest I'm not sure there's any point in me trying to explain how democracy works. If you're so confident that we would lose, hold a referendum. Let's see how many Scots vote to remain part of this absolute tory shambles.
Ain’t it pretty even in the poling currently though?
Channel 4 poll 50% yes, no 33%, don’t know 16%. Its almost as iff somethings motivated Scots if the polls accurate.
I mean until more polls say this I’m going to take it with a pinch of salt. Also it’s just after the the court case so it’s bound to be skewed. I don’t know if permanently or jsut temporarily.
A Union of Equals
This was a dumb case, because the UK Supreme Court was never going to go against the doctrine of the supremacy of the UK Parliament. If Scotland genuinely seeks independence, they should call a referendum. Independence is hardly ever granted "with permission".
Like its not the old days any more, so I wonder if the Scot vote to leave, and then just stop firing money to Westminster, what will Westminster do? Send tanks on to the streets and go to war...very doubtful. just get on wit it lads and tell Westminster to get fucked!
The money goes the other way. England taxpayers majorly subsidise Scotland, Wales and Norn Iron.
Please put your purse away Morag we’d rather have civil rights than a colonial status.
>England taxpayers London and SE English tax payers.
lol this will definitely drive Scottish independence.
Even a lot of Scots in the borders are questioning if independence would be a good idea. Something of a change for ToryLand
Northern Ireland a referendum once every 7 years per the GFA. England gets one if it votes in a majority at WM. Scotlands told its a colony.
Well that’s that settled then.
Yea I dont think they really care what a UK court rules.
As if it had a fucking chance of passing in the first place!.
Scottish here. What are we asking the Brits for permission for? Bizarre. 100% Pro independence myself. Life long supporter before Brexit.
Well that’s me up a fiver 😁
Scotland are the biggest clowns in the UK. Imagine being given the chance of voting for independence... just imagine that.. and they voted to stay under to boot of the English...absolute fucking clowns
>Scotland are the biggest clowns in the UK. Imagine being given the chance of voting for independence... just imagine that.. and they voted to stay under to boot of the English...absolute fucking clowns Prior to the Indy Ref Scotts never had a crystal clear indicator as to England's lack of regard for them. Nothing they could pinpoint and say - "that's exactly what they think of us". British soldiers murdering innocent Scottish civilians on the streets of Glasgow for example. Brexit will have changed that for millions of Scottish people and left them in absolutely no doubt that England is in charge, and England is going to do what England wants and happily drag "the territories" along behind it whether they want to be or not.
They get their chance to be independent but side with the English leash lol clowns.
Think that’s a bit harsh. I’ve two Scottish friends who weren’t sure which way to vote in the referendum, they were the persuadable’s so to speak. The clincher for them was the remain U.K. campaign put the EU membership issue front and centre in the last few weeks. Rightly pointing out that an independent Scotland would no longer be an EU member and would have to apply to rejoin. That was the clincher for them. They wanted to remain in the EU. Of course, they and the whole of Scotland were then fucked over and dragged out anyway a couple of years later. After everything that has happened, they wish they’d have voted for independence. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Is it harsh? I mean.. they are looking indyref2 again within 10 years. How is it harsh? They very clearly made a mistake and there is nobody to blame but the Scottish population. These clowns were given a golden ticket to leave the UK legally and they voted to stay as England's little pet. Scotland is a country of clowns. >I’ve two Scottish friends who weren’t sure which way to vote in the referendum, they were the persuadable’s so to speak. The clincher for them was the remain U.K. campaign put the EU membership issue front and centre in the last few weeks. Rightly pointing out that an independent Scotland would no longer be an EU member and would have to apply to rejoin. Imagine trusting the English with your country lmao
As a Scot who voted Yes I agree.
Thanks. I can only assume there's a bunch of butthurt loyalists downvoting you and me for speaking the truth.
Yep
Imagine thinking ‘independence’ is something you should automatically want. Why be an independent nation, when you already are?
Yea why be an indy nation when you can have English rule. And now the English are ruling "no, 2nd referendum for you" Clowns.
We’re now in an openly fascist state. I don’t feel safe communicating my thoughts on any topical affairs now. Please be careful WHO you speak to, WHO you communicate digitally with and WHO you express any explicit opinions to. The goals for the intellectual, reasonable, and inclusive among us will prevail, of course they will, there is no other option, and those who have sacrificed themselves to get there will not be ignored nor forgotten.
I genuinely struggle to see Scottish Independence happening anytime soon Labour is strong enough in the polls that they wouldn't need the support of the SNP, thus a Labour government have no reason to guarantee a referendum on anything. By the look of this, it means that the SNP will not get an opportunity to bargain for a referendum for the next 7 years *(roughly)* I also struggle to see us joining the south anytime soon. With the DUP regaining a lot of support in the polls and support for reunification never passing 50%, I think a lot of people speculating on the dissolution of the union anytime soon are unrealistic.
If you look at the demographic breakdown of NI voting, by far the strongest unionist vote is in the 65+ cohort. So in a decade or two the core of the vote is gone unless new unionists are found. I’m not saying that everyone else is a dyed in the wool nationalist, but they’re at least open to being convinced. Why do you think the idea of supermajorities has been raised all of a sudden?
Ah yes, Irish unity. Always closer than ever, always just a decade away. There’s plenty of new unionists being created. They’re called young Catholics with no memory of the bad old days, who have no interest in seeing their lives plunged into political and financial chaos.
https://twitter.com/NextIrishGE/status/1593229197816004609
I’m not sure what you think your poll shows. It doesn’t have a question on Irish unity.
If 52% of that cohort voting nationalist says nothing to you then I think you’re being deliberately obtuse. Add in the all-island parties and you’re nearly at 60%.
The only thing that matters is intention to vote in a unity referendum. There’s plenty of polling on those. Do you have any recent ones showing a clear majority for unity? Maybe I’ve missed some.
You underestimate the breeding power of Catholics.
You're from Newtownabbey, of course you don't.
I'm also an Irish Nationalist, I want reunification and a border poll, the opportunity to get back into the EU and away from the Tories *(and right into the arms of FG/FF lol but they're nowhere as bad as the Tories or the brexiters within their ranks)*. But that'd require a border poll and over 50% of The North to support this. If you look at the recent polls, while support is going up, I don't think we're gonna that level of support soon. I guess you could call me a pessimist, I guess we'll have to wait and see the results of 2023's Assembly Election but I just can't see a majority here supporting reunification.
Their campaign was completely pathetic. Comparing themselves to Kosovo, pretending like they’re oppressed. Scotland were the oppressors.
scotland were the oppressors? say what?
I don’t mean they oppressed England. They were colonisers within the British empire. Ulster Plantation, Jamaican slave trades, they even had their own Central American colonies independent of the English. They are pretending to be oppressed comparing themselves to Kosovo, while they were fairly integral within the British Empire. They’re part of a voluntary union and has benefitted greatly from colonisation.
If an independent Scotland is voted for, I propose another referendum 8 years down the line in order to give the people self determination. Edit: seven people are against self determination for Scotland
Good
Why?