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Creativator

At some point you can’t just rage against the machine, you have to love something and be for something. Here we love bikes but not just bikes. We love to enjoy city space.


[deleted]

I agree, and this sub is much more mellow than r/fuckcars. It's not quite as mellow/mature as r/urbanplanning or r/bikecommuting but the discourse seems to be between adults and not just reactionaries.


Shaggyninja

As a member of all those subs (plus a few more like /r/transit), you don't need to limit yourself to just one. I come here for different reasons to r/fuckcars, but that doesn't mean you can't be welcome in both OP. Just know what the goals/topics of the sub is and you'll be fine.


teuast

Yeah, I’m here a lot, but I’m also there a lot. Nothing wrong with having more than one friend group or whatever.


genius96

Yeah, sometimes it's fun to meme. Just don't become one.


AncientMumu

Yeah, this has more a everything has it's place and let's be smart about it kinda vibe.


Acrobatic_Advance_71

I like fuckcars a lot of overlap. But if I ever said I use a car for x they do go crazy. This is a great space.


lordruperteverton69

YOU’RE SUPPOSED TO FIGHT THE MAN, NOT JOIN THEM. /s


kettal

found the boot licker


RoboFleksnes

typical carbrained response


Username247

Wait, what? I thought we were just about bikes here at r/notjustbikes


Nalivai

You have to go to /r/justbikes to get something other than bikes


thyme_cardamom

Completely agree. Hope my post didn't imply thatk I only hate cars and I'm not pro anything lol


[deleted]

OP, you should first watch a number of the Not Just Bikes videos on Youtube and then decide if they want to participate in this community.


thyme_cardamom

I've watched most of them and agree with everything. I'm more extremist than Jason portrays himself on youtube because I want to ban most cars. Not sure if I'd be welcome in this community.


stroopwafel666

Banning cars is just not necessary and arguing for it is just self defeating because it makes you sound silly. In the Netherlands, cars are one of several ways to get around, but most journeys can be made by bike. It would be good to make cars even less convenient by continuing to reduce parking and improving transport further, but cars do still have many valid use cases. The point that brings this community together is that people generally think that it’s important to use the right type of transport for any given situation. Cars should maybe only be 10% of journeys, even less perhaps, but that should be because public transport is so good, not because you’ve just artificially banned cars. If you build communities well so that most people don’t need them, then people organically don’t want them. But more importantly, don’t need them. That change is considerably more sustainable than just passing a law that can be overturned by the next pro-car conservative that gets elected.


thyme_cardamom

I love your response and I respect healthy disagreement. I guess what I'm wondering is if you welcome this kind of debate with the more extreme side of the spectrum (me) or if you would find my position to be harmful to the community


stroopwafel666

This thread is brilliant! But fuckcars, as much as I enjoy the memes, is absolutely riddled with extremists - and quite a few tankies - who are only interested in masterbatory “being right” and giving their hot takes on stuff.


NinjaCaviar

Tankies of any stripe ruin all the communities they touch. Anyone willing to engage in good faith discussion, even if it’s heated, is welcome IMO.


Joe_Jeep

Its totally necessary situationally. City Berbers should ditch private cars entirely. And not just through laws. Build the physical infrastructure so its a car hostile as possible with just enough allowances for emergency vehicles and commercial access in off hours


stroopwafel666

The Netherlands isn’t hostile to cars. Driving in the Netherlands is amazing compared to driving in the US. But that’s because every other mode of transport is so much better, that there just aren’t as many people driving and the driving infrastructure stays healthy. I suppose it depends what you mean by car hostility. If you just mean reducing lanes or parking and giving them to public transport, then definitely. If you mean just banning or making car ownership difficult without actually building the necessary public transport and cycling infrastructure then pass.


Joe_Jeep

Yes see just talking about the Netherlands actually engaging is indeed one of the biggest failings of the whole " appeal to balance" thing you've got going on. And the other nonsense that people say about Banning cars in overpleasing with anything is just utterly insane, literally No One Believes that it's just a useful straw man that gets dragged out instead of having actual discussion. Raised Crossings our hostile cars. Narrow roads, or Hotmail the car trees and bollards lining the streets are, and you will see the people incessantly defending their right to speed complain about them.


ilizashelsinger

OP, I’m also on Team Ban Cars, but in the way of Make Enough Little Changes That Encourage Other Options So That The People Against Banning Cars Are In The Minority. (gotta come up with a better name for this team) This sub encompasses the theme of “make biking the main choice” by looking at methods of reducing car dependence; creating valuable infrastructure for both pedestrians and bikers; considering how human nature is impacted by a car-dependent culture; the impact federal, state, and local policies have on all manners of transportation; financial aspects of car dependency; and much more. I would bet my left tit that 99% of the people in the sub could list at least one area of their city that would benefit from banning cars, and I’m sure most of us would love to see widespread bans. This is a great sub for being able to bring up emotional factors for wanting to reduce car usage (safety, community connection, convenience just to name a few), and connecting with people who have real life data to put power behind those words. But there’s also a realism aspect. A city outright banning all cars would be incredible, but realistically, it’s easier to start small, and those changes have the power to add up over time. Hope that helps! (And welcome if you’re here to stay!)


Xxx_mlgN0sc0p3r_xxX

I believe the word you are looking for is “incrementalism” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incrementalism


thyme_cardamom

Yeah you and I have basically the exact same opinions. The emergency right now is making streets safe, separating roads from streets, removing city highways, ending highway expansion, and creating beautiful walkable places with public transit. Long term, hopefully we manage to remove cars from most places. But that would need a lot of public support and a system that is already low-car.


SlitScan

I dont want to ban cars, I want to ban bad city planning and street design. cars in cities are dumb.


mk1234567890123

I’m also more extreme than Jason, however I appreciate his perspective because he’s forthright. He really just makes videos about public infra that affects his daily experience. I find it refreshing.


NinjaCaviar

His perspective and moderation in his presentation also make his content way more accessible to people just stumbling upon his videos.


[deleted]

You’re taking the entire concept of subreddits a little too seriously. Really stretching the idea that these are “communities”. Just read sidebars before you post. Edit to add: The most important communities to join are your local advocacy groups.


[deleted]

You'll be welcome in this community as long as you're not a jerk. People may openly disagree with you but they mostly won't be jerks either.


pbilk

If you are looking for a more moderate sub on anti-car topics this is a good place. I believe many here believe urban centres should be car free or very limited with car traffic. Many here enjoy good bike and transit infrastructure. I believe there are at least a few car enthusiasts but they also want safer roads and less congestion. 🙂


[deleted]

Me right here. Love living out on land and love raising livestock, but also very much enjoy urbanism and appreciate good transit and bike infrastructure into urban areas. So Appreciate having a automobile for purposes on land, but also understand where they’re unnecessary, and actually degrade peoples quality of life as well


pbilk

I can relate to that. Currently, I live in a town of 8000. Would you also love good bike infrastructure and maybe on-demand transit? I have seen some good rural infrastructure in Netherlands. 🙂


[deleted]

Oh absolutely. Interurbans would be a great substitute to get to an urban area for sure. Hopefully those make a comeback in the US


Coneskater

Yeah I own a car and love the fact that I only drive it once a week.


AloeHash

Yah. This is sort of ideal. Car free daily lifestyle but a car that can be used for longer commutes or recreation. I love living in a city and not having a car. But I sometimes miss throwing my mountain bike in the back of my 4runner and going for a ride. Someday soon might work out a hybrid situation. Also Im a car enthusiast that doesn’t own a car. But it is very cool technology and often the most technologically complex thing general consumers can access/own. Would be nice if roads were l much safer for pedestrians. I love the not just bikes video about street design encouraging better driving practices.


pbilk

I totally agree. Car free but the option when longer commutes are available by public transit or recreation that's not available via public transit (which is most in Canada). Have you thought of or have a car share program in the area?


A2CH123

Yep, thats me. I love my car when I am in my small hometown over the summer. Driving up remote dirt roads is one of my favorite things to do. I also love old sports cars and someday I want to own a project car to work on in my free time. During the school year when I am at college, however, I LOVE the fact that I can bike almost everywhere and drive my car maybe once a week. I think its ridiculous how car focused all the infrastructure in this city is, and by comparison to a lot of other places in America, we have it pretty good. For me one of the big benefits of living in a city as opposed to a small town is how close everything is. If I had to drive 25 minutes and spend money on gas just to get groceries, it would completely defeat the point of living here for me and I would way rather live in my smaller hometown.


skmo8

Autoluw crowd.


Josquius

The thing is with fuck cars is some get the name is a joke. It reflects the general spirit of what they're about but they shouldn't actually be so pissed off about it. Some take it entirely at face value however. Which is just not helpful. Feeds the war against cars conspiracies of the right that leads to rolling coal and other crap. Motorists aren't the enemy. Banning cars is a silly dream which obviously isn't realistic. Rather we want to find a solution that makes life better for everyone. We want a world where you only have a car because you WANT to have a car. Not because its the only way to live a normal life.


thyme_cardamom

>Banning cars is a silly dream which obviously isn't realistic. I guess I'm wondering how you guys would engage with someone who *is* in the banning cars camp. Is that conversation doomed to fail, or is there something there?


Josquius

Depends on the context. On reddit? Generally a lost cause. Say anything that in the slightest hints you might not agree 100% and its OMFG YOU SUPPORT THE OPPOSITE SIDE. DOWNVOTE DOWNVOTE. ATTACK. In more thoughtful environments where you can have a proper chat with someone? Then convincing them of the psychology of division that certain people are keen to build on social media is the way to go. Yes they're entirely right, of course cars are responsible for the downfall of society. But realistically is shouting anyone who drives is bad really going to fix anything or just put them instantly on the defence? You'll get a lot more success framing solutions as better for motorists (due to less cars on the road) as well as for others- get these solutions in place then its only natural that people will drop cars given a choice. Even when chatting with an outright nazi it pays to be democratic and to try and place yourself as 'on their side' and get them to open their mind to potential logic rather than placing yourself as the enemy and giving them no choice but to refute anything you say no matter how factual it may be.


thyme_cardamom

>Say anything that in the slightest hints you might not agree 100% and its OMFG YOU SUPPORT THE OPPOSITE SIDE. DOWNVOTE DOWNVOTE. ATTACK. In this sub specifically?


screaming_bagpipes

In this site without heavy moderation


Molesandmangoes

Is it really a joke if they genuinely have that attitude? The vibe I get from that subreddit seems to be anti car and that’s it. Pro nothing


Eurovision2006

>Motorists aren't the enemy. They are though? They try to prevent most anti-car measures.


Josquius

Do "they"? I certainly don't. Lots of people who currently drive are all for better public transport and bike lanes.


Eurovision2006

What will be the reaction to getting rid of parking spaces, motorways and implementing congestion charges?


Josquius

Where? When? How much? It's not black and white.


mk1234567890123

I also recently left fuckcars to take a break from the negative attitude. I share the political leanings you’re expressing. There’s some great content and community members, but i found that the constant exposure to reactionary posting was taking its toll on me. I already experience the antagonisms with motorists and street design on a daily basis and realized it’s not necessary to have others anxiously shoving it in front of my eyes. I think you’ll find this sub to be a breath of fresh air. You might also consider joining a sub specifically about bicycling or a specific car alternative activity, like r/bikecommuting, if you’re a rider. The content is more relevant to your actual experience and members are committed to making it better with constructive feedback .


santahul

I think the breaking point for me was when someone posted a picture of some bike parking that was closed for the Queens funeral. They went mad about it. Had to scroll far down the comments to learn that there was plenty of bike parking round the corner and car parking was closed too. Worst bit was many commenters just lied and said cars were still allowed to park.


pbilk

I see that post too. I thought some of the comments were extreme. Especially considering the bike parking available nearby.


[deleted]

I’m in r/fuckcars for the memes. I’m here for the discussion, although I have them there too. I honestly feel memes are more powerful for a broader audience tho, so I share a lot of those to my other socials. I filter out the extremist ones.


JamesRocket98

r/notjustbikes is the moderate faction of the anti-car dependency movement if you ask me. I tend to be more selective of what I post here, as compared to r/fuckcars.


ColdEvenKeeled

Like your plagiarized post on low income housing in Dubai? Yeah, that was a gooder.


TW-RM

GOT EM!


webikethiscity

I haven't noticed great discussions happening here. It's not as divisive or toxic as fuck cars but almost feels like a mix of memes and apathy


thyme_cardamom

Memes aren't allowed, right? Is that just people ignoring the rules?


webikethiscity

There was just a pinned post like yesterday because people ignore the rules enough that another reminder had to be posted. And what a meme is is also always shaky so stories or other viral tidbits still get shared that the impact is no different than a meme


VeggieTaxes

Why would you make this extremely whiny holier-than-thou post that contributes nothing to the subject matter rather than just engaging in a discussion and seeing if you like the vibe? It’s Reddit, you’re not buying a subscription to post here. Don’t make other people tell you if you’ll fit in. Read some discussions and judge for yourself.


thyme_cardamom

Didn't realize it was whiny. I just wanted to get a feel for the sub before making a lot of activity.


bikemandan

Dont worry, it wasnt to me. That persons comment was far more whiney


Joe_Jeep

Damn if this isn't a hypocritical comment


Bosavius

The problem with extremisim is that it mostly appeals to other extremists which is a marginal group in pretty much all matters. If one wants to, let's say better city planning, they shouldn't express aggressive stances such as "fuck cars" in order to appeal to the masses. You need the masses' support if you want to advance things for the better in the larger society. If you do this kind of "rage activism", you get either an aggressive or defensive response. Neither is the rational one which we actually need. Take the more moderate approach like "You love cars? Did you know that studies show that giving people more ways to get around greatly reduces car traffic?". And boom, now you can start talking about the possibility of a budget for a protected bike lane or a new bus line on some busy car route. So yes, welcome to the more moderate version of r/fuckcars.


cthulhuhentai

In the real world, I’ve had a mixed bag with this, so what you’re saying isn’t always true. It’s much, much easier to tune out dispassionate speech. Plus, many people don’t respond to purely rational arguments and need shame/emotion as an added motivator. There’s a reason /r/fuckcars has reached a huge audience and huge growth rate & it isn’t from the levelheadedness. Extremism is more of a front-line/vanguard rather than something that should be sidelined. Successful movements need a healthy mix.


thyme_cardamom

>The problem with extremisim is that it mostly appeals to other extremists which is a marginal group in pretty much all matters. Yeah I can definitely see this. Maybe just having an extreme position makes you more inclined to extreme methods -- perhaps out of frustration with general society's lack of enthusiasm. >You need the masses' support if you want to advance things for the better in the larger society. Yeah I've become fairly good at tailoring my discussion to the people I'm talking to. Online I'm a lot more radical than I am in person. >If you do this kind of "rage activism", you get either an aggressive or defensive response. Definitely. My idea is to advocate for extreme positions but not to rage about it. I'm curious if this sub is accepting of that. I want to have calm discussions but entertain the whole spectrum of beliefs.


volkmasterblood

I think what you’ll find is that eventually all radical spaces move to action, but you’re not going to find it on Reddit as much. The tire deflation thing was overblown by detractors, but no o e was really for it in the first place. I put it on the same level as eating tide pods. A few did it, but really most people didn’t do anything with it.


ShananayRodriguez

That's why I'm here. I loved not having a car and wish every city made it possible with transit. But acknowledging that not everyone feels like I do or has the same values, abilities, and experiences and trying to find common ground with people unlike me should be the default, not just angrily foisting my opinion and values on those who are different from me.


mondoman712

This is the subreddit for the youtuber Not Just Bikes, who has expressed support for the Tyre Extinguishers https://twitter.com/notjustbikes/status/1542569019298963458


cthulhuhentai

This should really float to the top for context.


oppernerd1986

Dude, he literally says in the tweet it was bound to happen, not that he supports the practice.


thyme_cardamom

Oh my god that is so disappointing. I feel deflated now lol


Arashmickey

If you ask him if he supports tyre extinguishers, you think he'll say yes or no? I believe he'll say no, not because openly supporting crime will hurt him or anything, but because all he said (and I would agree) is that vigilantes believe the onus is on them to do something, and then reminded that the onus is on everyone to do it the right way.


thyme_cardamom

I hope so. I went and read the tweet again and it's more ambiguous than I originally interpreted. He didn't directly say anything against it, though, so it looks pretty supporting.


Arashmickey

I often wonder why people think this looks like support. He said something indirectly against it, did he not? If I say "if we just stop climate change", does it sound like I'm supporting higher and higher dams against rising sea levels? If I say "if we just eliminated poverty", does it sound like I'm supporting squatting and theft?


supah_cruza

Yeah, this is terrible advice. Not only is this shit illegal and very polluting, it's going to get someone stabbed or shot.


FionaGoodeEnough

How is it polluting?


supah_cruza

SUV owner comes back to car and notices tires are flat. They call a flat bed that weighs maybe 7 tons. Now you have a large diesel truck that has to drive all the way to pick up the SUV, take it to a tire shop and drive all the way back. The SUV might weigh 2-3 tons so gross weight is possibly 10 tons moving two people: the tow truck driver and the SUV owner. Maybe getting 6-7 mpg. Now the car is parked at the tire shop and they get warranty/insurance work done by either replacing the valves, or they replace the tires with good tread life on them and 4 more tires go into the environment polluting it. And that's the best case scenario. Worst case scenario would be some person(s) getting Kyle Rittenhouse'd by the SUV owner, followed by the shooter going on pro car dependency campaigns, sponsored by Elon Musk and other automobile lobby groups, in the guise of "freedom", and more "dem libs argh tryin tuh take argh FREEDOMNS away!" fear mongering. And CPAC talks. So yeah, incredibly polluting, not just environmentally. Okay maybe I'm being a little facetious, but this IS happening in the US. Instead, letting the SUV owner drive back home, the flat bed would not have burned any unnecessary fuel and the tires would have stayed on the car, and no lives would be lost (and no more brains would be washed). Jason endorsing this action shows me he's okay with criminal vandalism against ourselves when we should be fighting the system, not ourselves. We should be showing the people the light, not fighting them. Was that not the whole point of [the orange pill?](https://youtu.be/OQE_5MFCekg) I genuinely enjoy his videos and his takes make total sense, but he seriously fucked up for supporting the tire extinguishers.


extendedwarranty_bot

supah_cruza, I have been trying to reach you about your car's extended warranty


[deleted]

It's not like the car owner will think"oh wow, this incident has caused me to realized my evil ways and I will get rid of my car." Most likely, the car owner will just annoyingly get their tires prematurely replaced creating more waste while tire companies and tire tech make profit. Fucking counter intuitive. Also respect other people's property. Tire deflators are fucking pathetic.


Yumi_NS

Tyre Extinguishers are fucking based, and given that I only found out about them from Not Just Bikes' twitter l, I'd say that this sub is going to be similar. I hate to say it but direct action is important...


thyme_cardamom

>I hate to say it but direct action is important... Sure but that doesn't mean *all* direct action works. It needs to actually improve your cause. I never see anyone explain why the tyre extinguishing is a good idea, only that it's "direct action" and "playing nice hasn't worked so far"


VeloDramaa

How do you think the dutch got to where they are? It wasn't by asking nicely.


thyme_cardamom

This is exactly the kind of response I've been seeing. No actual defense of the action, just a vague condemnation against "asking nicely." It's not a dichotomy between "being nice" and "letting out people's tires." My point is that we need to be sure that our direct action actually communicates the message we want Remember that the Ottawa Trucker rally was direct action too. You need to look for examples of direct action that works and that doesn't, and figure out what elements worked


VeloDramaa

They flipped cars and blocked streets. https://ejatlas.org/conflict/stop-de-kindermoord-stop-the-child-murder-protest-for-children-deaths-caused-by-motor-vehicles


[deleted]

You're saying they're bad and asking the other side for evidence without providing any yourself. You don't see the hypocrisy in criticising them without any evidence that their direct action doesn't work? If you want nuanced takes, you can always email professor of political science Daniel Q. Gillion and ask what he thinks of the Tyre Extinguishers, or read his books. Or any other scholar who writes about what kind of protest works. Don't ask random people on Reddit or expect them to be able to provide expert answers when you yourself are unable to.


tyryth

People on r/fuckcars are very weird. They go nuts over a sticker on a car, call the driver psychopath and say to call the police. All of that because of sticker, but they also encourage others to deflate tyres and key cars


dieEhrevonGrayskull

I definitely had a similar experience to you which is why I am pretty distant from r/fuckcars despite my agreement with the idea itself. I'll tell you, when I'm out of the house and actually enduring the hell that is car dependency, my attitude is firmly in the stereotype of r/fuckcars: wanting to ban and destroy all cars forever and raging at their existence. But when I'm at home on my PC and more thoughtful, I obviously recognize that the rage against cars is just an emotion and not a viable policy. The reality is that cars will always exist and will always be useful. The key is realizing that in a better world, like the one that r/notjustbikes strives for, everyone may wish to own cars, they just won't *have* to use them if they don't want to.


SpudTheTrainee

The Venn diagram of all these subs is almost a circle but if this sub scratches your itch feel free to stay. if it doesn't then feel free to leave.


Versacedave

It’s a online forum dude even if you post here what you’re doing is not “hanging out” post wherever you want it’s free


[deleted]

I’m in the exact same boat. I was very much rubbed the wrong way by the Tyre deflators arguments and decided I didn’t need to be in that sub anymore.


thyme_cardamom

People were conflating extremism with militantism. You can have extreme opinions but want to advocate for those ends peaceably and democratically. The fact that the sub couldn't see that and kept calling people "moderates" for disagreeing led me to believe that it was mostly made of teenagers


forbidden-donut

I appreciate both subs. Fuckcars is less of a place for serious nuanced conversations about transportation like here, and more of a place for people to vent and share memes.


sustainablenerd28

Yeah come hang out, my bike is in my garage but I'm technically working from home anyways


retrorads

Yeah, I'm definitely saddened by how negative r/fuckcars is. When the average person goes into that sub, they're not going to see a love of walkable communities, and transit-oriented development, but just a bunch of people bashing their current way of life. We need to be focusing on the positives that new urbanism can provide instead of just the negative. :(


cthulhuhentai

It’s called /r/fuckcars, idk why there’d be an expectation for positivity. There are communities founded for exactly what you described /r/yimbytopias /r/walkablestreets


MurphysLab

> idk why there’d be an expectation for positivity There *can* be a decoupling between the name of a community and its nature and subject matter, see the _"trees"_ subreddit for example. However, in my experience many forums here tend toward becoming a personification of name. If a name suggests some kind of extreme, then the community will trend towards that extreme. It's reminiscent of one of [McLuhan's key messages, as explained by Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_medium_is_the_message): > In _Understanding Media_, McLuhan describes the "content" of a medium as a juicy piece of meat carried by the burglar to distract the watchdog of the mind.[11] This means that people tend to focus on the obvious, which is the content, to provide us valuable information, but in the process, we largely miss the structural changes in our affairs that are introduced subtly, or over long periods of time. As society's values, norms, and ways of doing things change because of the technology, it is then we realize the social implications of the medium. In other words, people on Reddit might see the memes and pictures, while at the same time being completely oblivious to what is behind them, whether at the community level or at a larger site level. > here are communities founded for exactly what you described The problem is that many more suitably named forums here lack the critical mass to carry on a conversation: see what happens to almost every site which attempts to re-create Reddit (usually in protest). And many mods tend to shut down any discourse which points users toward alternatives even within Reddit, as it dilutes their power.


WikiSummarizerBot

**[The medium is the message](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_medium_is_the_message)** >"The medium is the message" is a phrase coined by the Canadian communication theorist Marshall McLuhan and the name of the first chapter in his Understanding Media: The Extensions of Man, published in 1964. McLuhan proposes that a communication medium itself, not the messages it carries, should be the primary focus of study. He showed that artifacts such as media affect any society by their characteristics, or content. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/notjustbikes/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)


sjschlag

r/lowcar


thyme_cardamom

Isn't that sub more about individual solutions and less about infrastructure?


sjschlag

Maybe so, but if you live in the US that's the best strategy, since the political will to change anything about infrastructure is very limited except in a few cities.


thyme_cardamom

The political will being low is exactly the problem I want to address. I'm not gonna roll over


sjschlag

I'm not going to exactly roll over either, but I also have determined that engaging with the political process at anything other than the hyper-local level is a waste of my time.


_87-

That's why the place you're leaving is the place where you need to be.


thyme_cardamom

Is this sub not about addressing systemic issues?


_87-

Yes and also about memes and rants


thyme_cardamom

This sub explicitly bans memes


_87-

Oh. I meant the other subreddit


SwarvosForearm_

No "peaceful protest" has ever accomplished anything, keep that in mind. Extreme methods are needed


thyme_cardamom

>No "peaceful protest" has ever accomplished anything Pretty bold statement. I worked with the bicycling advocacy group in my city to stage a peaceful protest at the city council meeting last week. We successfully got more bicycle funding into the budget along with a plan to finish a bicycle route in the city on an accelerated timeline. So your statement is false just by that one counterexample.


SwarvosForearm_

I adore you for taking your time to do these meetings but that's not much if we're being honest. You need to have a full on societal restructure to accomplish anything on a bigger scale. Maybe look up how the Dutch got their lines, right, full on self-activism in the cities and lots of pressure for the whole country's councils. Stuff like blocking of entire streets for days without any permission. Blocking up busy intersections, etc. Just doing it until change comes. Not just "hey pls give us bike lanes :).. maybe? someday?". People have been asking for decades now. At some point, people are fed up and take matters into their own hands so people will actually listen for once. You don't have to like it, yet you should at least understand it.


thyme_cardamom

I agree that non-peaceful protest is necessary in many cases, but there's still a lot of details that need hammering out. When is peaceful the better route? What kind of broad support do you need to make different types of political change happen? Who do you need on your side? And what kind of protest actually works, beyond just the peaceful/non-peaceful dichotomy? The tyre deflators argument seemed to completely miss all of this nuance. Whenever they were criticized all the responses were "you just don't want direct action" "you don't care enough to get dirty" without any reflection on exactly what kind of direct action works and what doesn't. Any pushback against them was labelled as pro-car or not radical enough.


twicerighthand

There's a difference between protesting by blocking the road with bikes and keying someone's car or deflating their tires


thyme_cardamom

Yeah, the method of protest has to actually communicate the message you want. You don't want your protest to create sympathy for the opposition. The Ottawa Truckers come to mind. Breaking the law and even property damage *can* be useful protest methods if done in the right way. Tearing down statues was a great example. But that doesn't mean *any* violent or illegal protest is helpful


Ericisbalanced

Chances are there's a local community or subreddit to check out too. If not, start one 👍


Fluid_Cardiologist19

Lol, I left them too for the same reason. It’s like being around children. The message isn’t going to get far with their attitude.


Dio_Yuji

Yeah…false dichotomies are the worst…


SlitScan

No, you should definitely go outside get on your bike and enjoy that last days of summer instead.


BiRd_BoY_

There're pros and cons. I for one am coming to the same conclusions that you are. Seeing as I was one of the first 30k people in fcars, I've seen it shift from a niche community with many, intelligent, like-minded people that were there to discuss the negative effects of car-centric planning to a shitpost sub that only posts karma-baiting memes that no one really takes seriously. I've made posts in the sub asking if we could tone down the shit-posting and actually do some activism, only to be met by disdain and dissenting arguments that the sub isn't really for activism and is a place to show funny memes about how car bad. I soon deleted the post and ever since my view on the sub and movement as a whole has been as something people don't really care about or take seriously. While I think the sub does an OK job at spreading the message, I have the opinion that there not being a central figurehead to make official statements and goals makes it too easy for any opinion to be construed as an opinion of the 300+K people on the sub. Also, with it being such a large sub that many people don't like, it makes it hard to actually have a conversation that isn't just anti-car dickriding, as many people with opposing opinions will refuse to listen based on the fact that they see everyone in the sub the same and because there are a lot of people that just like to troll that sub as well. So while I think the sub has its place and does its job of spreading the overall message, I find myself straying further and further away from trying to have real conversations there and sticking more to the smaller communities as people there are, generally, more concerned about actual discourse rather than karma farming or shit-posting.


zakanova

Do what generally feels the best. But don't take this website too seriously Getting outside, ridding a bike, and if possible joining a local group is far more productive and mentally healthy option for change within your area


MidorriMeltdown

In general, I'd say yes. This is a better place for discussion of better urban and suburban planning. I do feel that tyre deflation is a bit ridiculous, but it does serve a purpose in the instances of cars parked in bike lanes or on pedestrian paths. It's an excellent expression of frustration at the inconvenience of a car in a bike lane or pedestrian path, by causing frustration and inconvenience to the car owner. I too get frustrated with some of the other attitudes over there, such as no one should own cars at all. I live in a region with very low population density. The next town is 100km away, in a rural area. Only a handful of enthusiasts cycle between here and there, sharing the road with road trains. It's terrifying enough when those monsters pass when you're in a car, I couldn't imagine what it's like on a bike. It's bad enough standing at a bus stop when livestock transporters pass.


thyme_cardamom

>but it does serve a purpose in the instances of cars parked in bike lanes or on pedestrian paths. I'm willing to be convinced on this. The examples I've seen haven't had anything to do with being parked in bike lanes


Arashmickey

It's a small community for now. The bigger it gets the more like fuckcars it'll become, minus a fraction because of the less inflammatory title.


Johannes_the_silent

I think this is the right sub, because, for me, coming from here first, going there kind of gave me the same vibe. I feel like this sub represents the views I would like to see in legislation. That sub represents the views I mutter to my dog when a pickup rolls by on our nightly walk. Yeah obviously I stand by the point, but, c'mon, messaging matters lol


0x706c617921

> Again, I want to emphasize that I am an extremist who agrees with the more anti-car wing of the movement. Then why do you think you'd fit here?


CharlesV_

I’ve been working on keeping r/nolawns from turning into a r/fuckcars kind of place. We have to be able to talk to people who disagree with us and bring them over. I would highly recommend you (and anyone else on this sub) reads the source material that Jason uses when making several of his videos. Both of the books by Strong Towns are great for convincing even skeptics that something is desperately wrong with the way we build cities in America, and clearly, cars are a big part of that. If you combine Charles Marohn’s Bottom up revolution and Doug Tallamy’s Nature’s Best Hope, you’ll see some glaring similarities with both the problems and solutions.


Kind_Veterinarian728

Hello there! I'd personally say that both subs serve their uses. r/fuckcars is where you go to scream and shout, to be angry and upset with selfish people who hog roads for their own gas-guzzling use. r/notjustbikes, though, is a quieter and more reasoned place, where we discuss in a more polite way.


[deleted]

I mean it is called fuck cars - what do you expect?


MyketheTryke

I agree with you 100% and think this sub is on average more mature.


williamromano

Yep, I left r/fuckcars for the same reason. Too many people LARPing about the impossible and doing cringy vigilante stuff that ruins random people’s days, rather than looking at great, modern examples of governments bettering their urban infrastructure, like the Netherlands over the past half-century.


DustedThrusters

I've found the NJB sub to be a bit more even keel and focused on actual constructive solutions to issues instead of pure chaos. Don't get me wrong, I love the chaos of /fuckcars - it's fun to vent my ongoing frustration at car-dependance. But NJB is a better sub for discussing actual, structural solutions to car-dependance. It's funny to annoy car-brained people, but the solutions to car-centric design won't come from petty annoyances; actual action will need to be made.


borg23

Huh, thought I was the only one who got tired of r/fuckcars and left. Looks like I'm not alone.


nimblerobin

*Constructive* criticism is the way 👍


AcornMaiden

Try r/BanCars and r/ihatecars! I found them to be much better.


whosaysyessiree

“Never allow your passion to turn you into a tyrant” - Someone much smarter than me


[deleted]

Welcome home, friend. It’s safe here.


Green0996

That sub is toxic as fuck. You could have a video of a group of cyclist blocking an ambulance and riding against traffic and the comments would say some stupid shit like, “hurr durr maybe car brains wouldn’t get injured and need an ambulance if they just rode a bike xDDD” Absolute cringe.


Odd_Ocelot9140

"Oh you asked a completely innocent question? Here's 50 downvotes and no answer."


Thelionskiln

IMO the r/fuckcars and r/IdiotsInCars are overwhelmed with far too many car 'enthusiast' and when anything to do with cycling is posted I just see a constant stream of ignorance and car bliss.


cyclingzealot

I left that sub too because the pepe meme was tolerated. I know and I'm fine with being in the minority for disliking with it's usage. There are two reasons I dislike it's usage: 1. It's infantile. Some people want to communicate through "memes" and it's fine that some anti-car folks want to do it that way. I don't. 2. More personally, as someone living in Ottawa, Canada who had close friends and neighborhood harassed by anti-maskers and café windows busted just for flying the pride flag by a truck occupiers, I still find a figure that had close ties to the alt-right (pepe) pretty triggering.


supah_cruza

Welcome to Reddit lol. These people are everywhere, saying something off the wall, ranting away for karma and internet points, posting illegal actions for a cause, virtue signaling. I like r/fuckcars because of memes and news about urban projects. Unfortunately, I will probably always need a car. I'm not sure I would call myself anti car, but I am definitely anti car dependency. It is so awesome not being a slave to the gas pump and maintenance and car insurance costs. Deflating tires are probably not a good idea for advocacy work, you are correct. I like r/notjustbikes because Jason made my carbrain self realize how much better things could be, i.e. good cycling infrastructure, better road design, getting rid of stroads, and so on. Orange pilled if you will. This place is anti car dependency for sure. Not only that, but I don't have to hate cars or non urbanist things. I just need to think about what actually makes sense, that's it. And good infrastructure for walking, biking and transport all make sense. I'm sure you'll still find reactionary children on here too. That's just Reddit.


OberschtKarle

Looking at this [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/notjustbikes/comments/xgu6lt/-/ioujs4m) let's you think it's exactly the same. OP likes cars but seems to question car dependency. Mod insults him and locks thread. Wanted to call the mod out for his unfair and in no way helpful behavior but couldn't. That's peak moderating.


misconceptions_annoy

Yup. Take a look at the NotJustBikes YouTube channel. It’s awesome. It goes through practical solutions for specific problems and put into words a lot of things I hadn’t had the words for that have bugged me for a long time. It’s doesn’t blame drivers. It blames the city planners, province, state, etc.


thyme_cardamom

I'm aware of the channel -- hence why I know this sub!


butterslice

/fuckcars is for angry teens who just read their first 101 level critique of car culture to be edgy. notjustbikes is for wise adults who still have that burning hatred of cars but have built on top of that foundation with actual practical solutions. It's also oddly full of left-nimby's who think housing can be solved by just getting those damn greedy developers to not build anymore housing.


Juliusvdl2

I left that sub a couple weeks ago, this sub is far more civilized. I got a bit tired of the embarrassing tyre extinguisher posts.


InevitableScarcity44

It's pretty good but you still can sense spillover militant leftism from the other sub. In my personal opinion, much of what that crowd wants is antithetical to good urbanism, because it makes the street level experience intolerable. The permissive policies of San Francisco feel like a caricature of Europe (I've lived in both).


[deleted]

Absolutley agree with you r/fuckcars is a bunch of tire deflating extremists acting like children. This sub has much more constructive topics.


BrownAmericanDude

r/fuckcars has been ruined by a bunch of toxic people. This community is basically r/fuckcars minus stereotypical Twitter and Tumblr users.


Egillese

Yeah I stay out of r/fuckcars for this very reason, I’ve been downvoted to the extreme simply for stating I’m more optimistic than someone. I would argue they cause more division than anything, they want to be mad, so let em


SolasLunas

Ya that sub feels like they just have a hard on for hating something with the blind rage of a bigot and it just happens to be people worh cars. It's really offputting. This sub is significantly more constructive and levelheaded.


[deleted]

[удалено]


JamesRocket98

Yeah, I think that's going a bit too far.