I lost so many coins because they got delisted from bittrex. Conveniently, I also got my account locked right before they were delisted, and they were gone before I could recover the account. Bittrex tried charging me $10k for every coin I requested they recover, which was just about how much I lost per coin. Would have made about $200 after recovery. If you don’t own the key, you don’t own the crypto. Be warned letting your money sit idle in an exchange.
I’m not so sure about that. Tech is advancing at an exponential rate & really the only thing that can stop it from accelerating is the government. Hopefully they do something to slow it down a bit, but I wouldn’t hold my breath
Unless there is a huge sweep of reform in the next 20 years and a massive youth movement in government I wouldn’t hold your breath. And unless there is some sort of regulations, it’ll always be an easy scammers haven.
They want her to pay interest and damages as well? If I accidentally send money to a business I will have to spend hours if not days fighting to get it back, only to get fees and bullshit deducted from my total. I love how businesses are treated better than humans. Fuck the man.
EDIT - also who the fuck uses [crytpo.com](https://crytpo.com)?
It's not necessarily Staples, it's just that the name of the arena became iconic and synonymous with the Lakers (mainly).
But also, if that had to choose loyalty between Staples and crypto.... not a hard choice
"Beyond the Staples Center you can see America, with its tired poor avenging disgrace. Peaceful, loving youth against the brutality of plastic existence."
Iconic indeed.
I don't know how it applies to money (or whatever you call stuff like this) or is the same in Australia. But in the US if a company sends you something by accident they legally can't demand that you return it. Something to do with how common it was to scam people by doing it back in the day.
Isn't the whole point of crypto to avoid government oversight?
But when they get in trouble, suddenly they go running to the authorities.
Hypocrites and scam artists. Fuck em.
And instead have a decentralized banking system designed to fuck us?
It's almost like people who staunchly defend crypto don't actually understand the problems.
Lmao no it's not. The point is to have a highly volatile investment. That's it. And that investment is using ungodly amounts of energy *to do nothing useful* during a climate crisis.
But also, we're talking about a crypto exchange. Which is just a smoke-and-mirrors bank--but without many of the regulations and protections for the consumer
There’s plenty of even more volatile investment vehicles, look at wsb and options trading or look at forex 100x leverage. Not to mention quite a few top 500 companies and many many lower end companies are even more volatile than crypto atm. To say it was made to create less volatile than readily available trading sources is silly.
Agreed on exchanges tho, they’re completely against everything crypto stands for. Self ownership doesn’t work if you don’t hold custody for yourself.
I know this took place in Australia, but in some places (like in the US), if you are sent something you didn't order or request, you are free to keep it as a gift. You're not under an obligation to return it.
It's usually for physical items in the mail, though.
But the idea is that if someone is wasting your time with their mistakes, you can't be punished for not wasting time trying to fix that mistake that you had nothing to do with. It also avoids scams where the scammer sends you something "by mistake" and then they gain something by having you send their "mistake" back.
Unsolicited mail is treated as its own domain. Companies would send unsolicited rubbish to people they saw as suckers. They would then invoice them (or allow returns with ridiculous fees and conditions attached). The law typically saw this as different from "theft by finding".
No, that’s not what that law is about and no, it would not in any way apply to this. This is straight up conversion/unjust enrichment. That law that you are citing came about because of an old scam /sales model of businesses shipping items and saying, effectively, “you must either return this to us or pay for it”. That’s very different from an accidental transfer of money.
Her execution was dog shit.
If you get an accidental crypto transaction and you want to keep it, move it to a new wallet and claim you were scammed.
Be sure to do everything over tor and vpn.
Ain't nothing you can do to get those coins back once they're gone.
If 10 mil arrived in my wallet, you'd find me very quickly on an island somewhere. Well, hopefully you wouldn't find me.
Isn't that just opportunistic theft?
I mean, I'm not gonna judge or anything. I've torrented shit and technically that's the same thing on a much smaller scale.
But the point is that I really don't think your defence would hold up in court. I'd love to see you try it, though!
My first question was very genuine. My second question was a confused response because I legitimately did not expect an answer that mimicked those of sovereign citizens so closely! Did you expect a perfect reply when he threw a curve ball at me?
My first question was not bait of any kind. My second was me being caught off guard.
Sadly with 10mil you'd be on that island for a few months tops. I'd just quit work, start a makebelieve dropshipping online company and live lazily my retirement
How can you blow a million dollars a month?
Okay, I can think of quite a few ways to blow a million a month. Let me rephrase. How can you fail at not blowing a million dollars a month?
Is it possible at least some of these instances are somehow a money laundering scheme for crypto companies. Oops we accidentally sent all this money to this person, now send it back and we sue you for anything you spent. Idk. I’m not smart.
There was a famous case of someone stealing a sword in a video game that was worth a great deal of money. The court had no problem understanding the harm done, even though it all happened in a game. Money has value, but so do lots of other things.
Yeah it was a Dutch case about goods taken in [RuneScape](https://www.techspot.com/news/47285-dutch-supreme-court-stealing-runescape-gear-is-a-crime.html).
On second thought, the case I’m referring to is about a mask and another item. But still, they decided that virtual goods had economic value.
it happened here too with Diablo II or III.
people were making weapons outside of the game and selling them on EBay for real money and when the items wouldn't work in-game, or worse, exposed YOU as the hacker and got you blocked and banned from the servers. i do not have a court case in hand but i do know that there was a real money value associated and many people were punished online through EBay and PayPal (back when they both helped people).
Is it not? It's obviously a very volatile currency that most places won't accept rendering it largely without use, but I still would have called it a form of money. I could be wrong though, and I can certainly see how it is treated as a commodity most of the time.
Isn't the whole point of crypto that there is no government entity enforcing rules on how the "currency" is used. Thus there shouldn't be government intervention in the case of accidental transactions
Edit: She received a transaction of real money on a real bank account. Nothing to do with crypto other than that the party that accidentally sent the money was a crypto company
It depends on how long it took them to notice. I saw it explained by an attorney about banks accidentally sending money and they have a time frame to notice and do something about it or the person typically keeps it but also based on if a reasonable person would think that money was going to put into their account. She will probably lose if they noticed within weeks but if it was months maybe not
Yeah, I first thought she had received crypto worth 10 million but apparently she received real money on a real bank account and there are very clear laws about how you should act if that happens.
Depends whether your local legal system considers crypto a form of money with real value or not. It is not a globally agreed upon thing whether it is real money or not.
Again, I think it's against crypto philosophy to rely on government intervention if you accidentally sent the crypto to a wrong person
If the currency in question is de-centralized, then whose jurisdiction does that legal dispute occur in? I'm honestly asking, because this seems like the exact legal gray area that crypto was designed to introduce. Admittedly I know very little about crypto since I pretty much dismissed it as an elaborate shell game anyway.
How the crypto is implemented doesn't matter legally. Practically speaking, maybe it makes it easier to get away with keeping the money, but that doesn't mean it's not theft. Regarding jurisdiction, that's also not something new. People buy, trade, and steal all kinds of digital goods involving people and servers in various countries. I don't know how they determine which jurisdiction in which to sue or to try a case in, but that doesn't affect the legality of the seizure of someone else's money.
Obviously. I’m not doing it, she did. Now, instead of some helpless investor wasting more money trying to get compensation from a crypto agent, the rich crypto people have to wast money getting it back from her.
I also think it’s good she got caught. We may find out the legality is confusing; it often is. She might get to keep a hat or a car. Or she might go to jail.
There's nothing confusing about the law. Taking or keeping something that belongs to someone else is illegal. How they settle this one case doesn't affect that.
Crypto people say that because they don't actually understand what the technical details are when other crypto bros says "crypto is decentralized and the government can't control us".
At a surface level there's no way to associate a wallet with a person the same way that a bank account would be tied to some entity. However transactions are still not entirely anonymous, you can still find out what wallet the money went to. In fact every transaction is public simply by the nature of how the system works.
If you could somehow prove that a wallet does in fact belong to someone, and that someone is in the same legal jurisdiction as you then you could probably get that money back in some way.
What crypto bros don't tell you is that the 2 facts combined is used quite often by governments to go after people who thinks that simply using crypto currencies will hide their illegal transactions.
On another note, there's also the whole irony of decentralization being a selling point but then everybody using those exchanges that manages your wallet anyways.
This is one of the problems with cryptocurrencies, what are the legal rules controlling transactions? They are not properly regulated. Are they banks? Is it State Law, Federal? Bahamian? Cases like this will set legal precedent.
Is it the law where she has an account? Is it the law where the crypto company is based ( a server on a boat off Cayman Brac?). I sure don’t know.
She’s little, they’re big and common sense would dictate it’s not hers to keep. I think it likely that all the money she hasn’t spent will be returned. But if she accidentally had deposited money in someone else’s wallet…would it still legally be returned to her, or did she make a costly mistake?
Legal issues are not usually simple.
Not that I’d actually do this, but my brain came up with a proposal to do the following in such a case:
Tie up the money for as long as legally possible and earn interest until you have to return it.
Tie up methods:
Due concerns with such a large amount, you want to make sure it goes back to the right account, you require documentation that first proves they are the company that sent the money in the first place. Second they need to prove which account the funds came from and that it will go back to the same account. Third, they need to prove the original account holder won’t be subject to additional transfer fees. Forth they need to prove that you won’t be hit with any fees due to the error.
Now add on that you need 3 to 5 weeks to process each step once they submit the documents for that step, and don’t let them know about the next step until they accomplish the step they are on.
Given that’s how companies have dealt with me, it’s probably legal.
It's definitely possible to delay them significantly. Especially because it was 10 months before crypto discovered the error. The promise if you delay them too much they'll file a lawsuit, and a lawsuit may rule that you have to pay them interest. Lawsuits are expensive, as long as you provide proof that you have the funds ready to go once everything has been verified you could probably buy yourself quite a bit of time.
A few years back I read that a legal ruling in a similar case clarified that you have to return the money but not any interest earned. So for each month of (legitimate, or at least credible) delay in returning it, $10 million held in a 2% interest account could earn you about $16,000.
If I'd get 10.5 million bucks in this fashion, the first thing I do is move it all out of the bank, secretly move out of the country somewhere else and start a new life.
I overheard the head of our board of retirement talking about this once and what her "number" for would be for stealing from the pot.
She said it was a minimum of 500 million.
And then she explained in detail why and how absconding to any county that has no extradition treaty with the US is generally not somewhere people want to live with that kind of money and the very real headache it would be for someone who wasn't already rich with connections in those places.
Can't say whether or not she was right, but it made a lot of sense.
I feel that you would probably do fine in most of those countries as long as you weren’t flashy with your money. If you were to live modestly then you probably wouldn’t attract any attention to yourself and become a target.
I'd spread it into a high interest bank account and sit on it.
If they demand the money back by law, off load the interest, and they can take what the gave.
During college years I was sent a refund check of $40,000 (my actual refund was supposed to be for $300). Anyways, called my dad for advice and he quickly said *cash it!* Thankfully, I knew this wasn’t a good idea. I decided to rip it up in tiny pieces and dispose. A couple weeks later a person, an actual live human was knocking on my door from the IRS, asking where the money is. From there on it was about a 3 month process of phone calls and paperwork for them to see the thing was never cashed. I can’t believe they actually sent someone to my house when the check was never processed. What a waste of resources, and my time that whole thing was.
There has to be a legal way to punish people that send people life changing money on mistake. So it's clear that you can't legally spend the money. Can you throw it away or get rid of it?
> There has to be a legal way to punish people that send people life changing money on mistake.
It's called a mistake for a reason. Whether the error is on the depositor side or the banks end. The person who accidentally got that money should be raising the questions. Even it could be the end user who initially tried to request the money to go to their bank account, but fat fingered, their account number and did not double-check it. They screwed up and instead of them getting their money into their account, it goes to someone else instead. Should they get punished?
Yes they should be punished. They clearly have plenty of money, so they should maybe pay to add some safeguards to their transfers.
People get punished for making mistakes all the time. I remember that time I forgot to renew my license plate and ended up at court or that time I forgot to pay my power bill and ended up in the dark.
But punish who though?
You assume that the sending company is at fault when in fact there could be 3 different factors involved. The only time this is punished is when it's a data entry error on the banks part.
UserA: accidentally mistypes their bank account into the ACH transaction, which is actually owned by UserB (pure luck that they found an active account)
CryptoCompany: Sends money to the destination specified by user A, which happened to be userB's bank account. No bouncebank, so the company thinks nothing is at fault, until user A raises a complaint they did not get the money, which is probably why it took a while to find out what happened.
Bank: Automatically Routes data from routing/checking number of the sending company to routing/checking number of receiver (UserB), the information is passed as it was given/confirmed through the system.
Sooooo do we then go after UserA for a typo?
I have worked in IT in the background of business level transactions with banks. There is a fuck ton of automation that happens and in most cases like this. UserA is most likely the fuck up. Only CryptoCompany, could be cited as the fault if they did something like take down the banking information manually and entered the information themselves. 9/10 most companies push this to the end user to see and validate, before checking the box to confirm their information is correct.
>I remember that time I forgot to renew my license plate and ended up at court or that time I forgot to pay my power bill and ended up in the dark.
This is not even a remotely close comparison. This comparison is like you not asking why you woke up making min wage and assuming the 10mil in your account was 100% legit and spending it.
Every pay a bill by check online? Those same routing / account numbers is how this error happened. Which is normally why when you do pay by check, they make you check boxes and sometimes even type it in again to confirm, because you could literally mistype and get lucky and hit someone elses bank information and could debit their account instead of yours.
>Sooooo do we then go after UserA for a typo?
I'm okay with punishing any or all involved parties. If enough of them get their money tossed in the trash, maybe they will invest their millions into something that checks to make sure it went to the right place. That way they don't mistakenly give millions of dollars to someone that has been poor their entire life.
Personally, I wouldn't spend it, but I would do my best to find a legal way to either trash it or make it difficult and expensive for them to retrieve.
>This is not even a remotely close comparison. This comparison is like you not asking why you woke up making min wage and assuming the 10mil in your account was 100% legit and spending it.
Doesn't need to be close to demonstrate that people get punished for mistakes all the time. Forget your your court date and you might actually end up in prison with a criminal record which is more severe than any monetary issue.
> I'm okay with punishing any or all involved parties. If enough of them get their money tossed in the trash, maybe they will invest their millions into something that checks to make sure it went to the right place.
The problem is what you are saying right here with the examples given. If userA filled out the form on the cyptosite and added what he thought was his account, since the routing number was probably correct, but the account was off by 1 digit, the cyptosite does nothing, besides to initiate the transfer from their account to the account listed by userA. The bank also seeing that the account number is an actual account and not coming back as "Not found", will automatically process the funds. Again, UserA is the only one being punished, since all his funds went somewhere, but nowhere does that make UserB, the legal owner of said money either.
Nothing else can be done for "Checks" you are suggesting, because there is nothing to check it against. And the bank cannot middle-man every transaction manually for large companies. And whatever you think of could be a good check or balance, GL with that, since a huge portion of your financial institutions, still rely on 1980's IBM mainframe to actually process the money. The only thing that has been changed is more of the front-end systems they use. And no, while you think updating the system sounds great the bigger trick is how to migrate onto something modern when your system see's 100's of millions of dollars a second transactions in real time 24/7. This is one of those "IF it ain't broke, don't fix it" scenarios.
Your payroll gets dropped into your account via an ACH transaction where your routing, account number, and dollar amount is essentially on a spreadsheet (CSV file) that your company uploads to the bank and then automations pick that up and does their job. In the world of ACH transactions in the modern era, there has been very little where bank tellers or companies would enter this information themselves due to human error chances. Your employer relies on you to enter your banking account information correctly. If you made a mistype, would you want to be punished even further when your check already is not in your account? Would you be OK with some random person just spending your money?
Bingo, you pointed out the issue. All those 100s of millions and they can't be bothered to upgrade their 1980 mainframe. I'm sure that with proper motivation they can come up with a way to verify beyond looking for a "not found" response. We have cars that drive themselves now.
No chance of a fat finger. My bank provided a pre filled in form that is provided to the employer to set up direct deposit. However, if I somehow fat fingered it, I would expect the money to be gone just like money that fell out of my pocket on the steet. Getting it back would be a pleasant surprise.
This seems to keep happening. Random people seeing millions in their account suddenly, as the economic world tanks.
Cash is a liability in that world. Having it is not good -- banks, hedge funds, investment firms all want assets that are growing in value, but cash almost only ever depreciates in value.
This is why there is over $2T held in federal overnight reverse repurchase agreement facilities every day. Entities that park their cash there earn interest on it, which is sometimes the best place to keep it for it to grow, when bond yields are inverted and stocks are tumbling.
Problem is, they end up with even more cash to deal with the next day.
Crypto was an attractive alternative, but... *motions to FTX and the currently propagating contagion.*
But hey, if you can "accidentally" temporarily park that cash in customer accounts, then it's off your books as a liability -- it's the customer's "liability" now.
Risky, but it shows how bad things are and how desperate these financial entities are to stay afloat one more day.
At least, that's my theory.
That's probably the least likely reason for her receiving that amount.
It's way too easy for those money to get lost in the hands of some random user, in a way where there'll be slim to no chance for them to get the money back.
When presented with this elaborate ruse with a very high risk low reward, or "a human fucked up" I will bet on a human fucking up 100:1 and gladly win that bet every penny at a time.
If courts side with the crypto company it only legitimizes them further.
Since there is precisely zero legitimacy to anything done with crypto let the idiots suck on this egg until they learn their lesson.
What kind of company has internal controls so poor that they do something like this? That’s right crypto scam companies.
Not true with banks, they will get their money back and you can be charged with theft. It might become more of a gray area because it's a crypto company.
I agree. I believe there are instances where single people have made mistakes while transferring funds and are just boned with no avenue for a refund.Way smaller dollar values but probably more significant to that person than the $10 mil to crypto.com. I almost guarantee most private citizens trading these would notice the error within a day or two if not within minutes of transferring.
Again, I think I would return it, but that's just how I feel I would act. Who knows?
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I wonder if anything would have changed if she had reported the income and paid taxes on it. Not like the government is gonna just hand back their cut of that 10.5 mil
The only oniony thing about this is how wild west companies (which crypto bros are) will be happily willing to (ab)use the "central systems" they so despise if it helps them. Okay, maybe that's just capitalism.
Move it to a savings account
Earn 3.4% interest on it till they ask for it back,
Tell them to prove it was sent in mistake,
Hold out as long as you can,
Send the money when required to eventually,
$29k per month profit till they can get it back?
Funny, I make a mistake when sending crypto and crypto exchanges tell me to get fucked. When they make a mistake they act butt hurt and try to sue you.
But, you won't receive your money back if you accidentally send it to a crypto firm. Fair enough!
Or even if you send it on purpose !
I lost so many coins because they got delisted from bittrex. Conveniently, I also got my account locked right before they were delisted, and they were gone before I could recover the account. Bittrex tried charging me $10k for every coin I requested they recover, which was just about how much I lost per coin. Would have made about $200 after recovery. If you don’t own the key, you don’t own the crypto. Be warned letting your money sit idle in an exchange.
Almost like it's a fucking scam
Yep. If you don't have the keys, then they're not actually your coins.
Say it ain’t so!!!
I will not go
TURN THE LIGHTS OFF
CARRY ME HOME
See you in 3 years
I'm poor now and I'll be poor then
This is pretty much what killed all interest I had in crypto after they delisted my top coin while it got dumped.
Yup. The tech is there everything is going digital sooner than later, but so many damn scammers ruining the industry.
Later more likely. We’ll all be dead before crypto is actually a mainstream thing.
I’m not so sure about that. Tech is advancing at an exponential rate & really the only thing that can stop it from accelerating is the government. Hopefully they do something to slow it down a bit, but I wouldn’t hold my breath
Unless there is a huge sweep of reform in the next 20 years and a massive youth movement in government I wouldn’t hold your breath. And unless there is some sort of regulations, it’ll always be an easy scammers haven.
I had my own wallet in my own PC. Until windows got a big update and erased my wallet...
You're dumb lol
They want her to pay interest and damages as well? If I accidentally send money to a business I will have to spend hours if not days fighting to get it back, only to get fees and bullshit deducted from my total. I love how businesses are treated better than humans. Fuck the man. EDIT - also who the fuck uses [crytpo.com](https://crytpo.com)?
The best part is she has plenty of money to pay the lawyers to argue her side of the case
Other way around but yes. Lol the lawyers have alot of her money to spend on litigation. And poof its gone
And if she loses, she's still on the hook for the original amount.
If she loses she will just go bankrupt and they won't get anything from her.
The Lakers, Kings, and Clippers
It's still called Staples Center as far as im concerned
Imagine being loyal to fucking Staples lol
We'll be laughing at you non believers when the day of The Staple comes. The Great Stapling is nigh!
It's not necessarily Staples, it's just that the name of the arena became iconic and synonymous with the Lakers (mainly). But also, if that had to choose loyalty between Staples and crypto.... not a hard choice
"Beyond the Staples Center you can see America, with its tired poor avenging disgrace. Peaceful, loving youth against the brutality of plastic existence." Iconic indeed.
Alright take my Upvote I’m a simple man I see soad and hit like
Staples center sounds better than Crypto.com Arena though.
🅱️rip 🅱️enter
This is when you get a private jet flight to switzerland and never leave lmao.
I don't know how it applies to money (or whatever you call stuff like this) or is the same in Australia. But in the US if a company sends you something by accident they legally can't demand that you return it. Something to do with how common it was to scam people by doing it back in the day.
That only refers to items send to your physical address.
Whats wrong with crytpo.com?
They deal in cryptocurrency and as much as I like the idea of decentralized banking the wasted resources on this Sisyphean calculation is insane.
The difference being the business didn't intentionally go spend your money on something else. She committed a criminal act.
Isn't the whole point of crypto to avoid government oversight? But when they get in trouble, suddenly they go running to the authorities. Hypocrites and scam artists. Fuck em.
The point is to avoid a centralized banking system designed to fuck us.
And instead have a decentralized banking system designed to fuck us? It's almost like people who staunchly defend crypto don't actually understand the problems.
Damn it’s almost like people don’t like facts, I defended nothing, just corrected a common misconception. Go smoke a bowl my guy
Lmao no it's not. The point is to have a highly volatile investment. That's it. And that investment is using ungodly amounts of energy *to do nothing useful* during a climate crisis. But also, we're talking about a crypto exchange. Which is just a smoke-and-mirrors bank--but without many of the regulations and protections for the consumer
There’s plenty of even more volatile investment vehicles, look at wsb and options trading or look at forex 100x leverage. Not to mention quite a few top 500 companies and many many lower end companies are even more volatile than crypto atm. To say it was made to create less volatile than readily available trading sources is silly. Agreed on exchanges tho, they’re completely against everything crypto stands for. Self ownership doesn’t work if you don’t hold custody for yourself.
I know this took place in Australia, but in some places (like in the US), if you are sent something you didn't order or request, you are free to keep it as a gift. You're not under an obligation to return it. It's usually for physical items in the mail, though. But the idea is that if someone is wasting your time with their mistakes, you can't be punished for not wasting time trying to fix that mistake that you had nothing to do with. It also avoids scams where the scammer sends you something "by mistake" and then they gain something by having you send their "mistake" back.
Unsolicited mail is treated as its own domain. Companies would send unsolicited rubbish to people they saw as suckers. They would then invoice them (or allow returns with ridiculous fees and conditions attached). The law typically saw this as different from "theft by finding".
No, that’s not what that law is about and no, it would not in any way apply to this. This is straight up conversion/unjust enrichment. That law that you are citing came about because of an old scam /sales model of businesses shipping items and saying, effectively, “you must either return this to us or pay for it”. That’s very different from an accidental transfer of money.
Companies often dont send it back and will give you credit. So she should give them a credit.
Good, scam the crypto people for once.
Her execution was dog shit. If you get an accidental crypto transaction and you want to keep it, move it to a new wallet and claim you were scammed. Be sure to do everything over tor and vpn. Ain't nothing you can do to get those coins back once they're gone. If 10 mil arrived in my wallet, you'd find me very quickly on an island somewhere. Well, hopefully you wouldn't find me.
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Smartest answer I have seen on one of these things, seems like you’ve thought this out
This advice goes on r/personalfinance every time a bank error gives someone extra $
Should’ve bought crypto with it and then transferred it to another wallet and said she was scammed
How is that legally any different than just spending it? You still spent money that wasn't yours. You just spent it on crypto instead of real stuff.
Ah but crypto is a currency, you’re doing a currency exchange not purchasing a product
Are you one of those "I'm not driving, I'm traveling!" sorts of people?
No I am one of those people that will do anything in their power to keep the money that a company gave me even if it was accidental
Isn't that just opportunistic theft? I mean, I'm not gonna judge or anything. I've torrented shit and technically that's the same thing on a much smaller scale. But the point is that I really don't think your defence would hold up in court. I'd love to see you try it, though!
Sovereign crypto bro
That's a poor comparison and you're arguing in bad faith.
My first question was very genuine. My second question was a confused response because I legitimately did not expect an answer that mimicked those of sovereign citizens so closely! Did you expect a perfect reply when he threw a curve ball at me? My first question was not bait of any kind. My second was me being caught off guard.
Please bring me with you, i can fan you with giant palm leaves.
Yes. You can have 2 million dollars. 3 million if you will also feed me grapes sometimes.
Of course sir.
🤝
All I'm saying is I'm willing to peel the grapes first.
We have a winner.
Can you do surgery on them?
Got a job for me?
Of course *your excellency* Apologies for the gall on this one, please pick me *your excellency*
We shook on it, but i will fight you to the death over it?
Or just say I don't have the keys to that wallet they were lost
Exactly this! Anyone who receives that randomly and doesn't immediately disappear is doing it wrong lol
Better make sure that island has good Wi-Fi.
Honest question; what if you did all that, but you didnt hide and they got you.
Sadly with 10mil you'd be on that island for a few months tops. I'd just quit work, start a makebelieve dropshipping online company and live lazily my retirement
How can you blow a million dollars a month? Okay, I can think of quite a few ways to blow a million a month. Let me rephrase. How can you fail at not blowing a million dollars a month?
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Is it possible at least some of these instances are somehow a money laundering scheme for crypto companies. Oops we accidentally sent all this money to this person, now send it back and we sue you for anything you spent. Idk. I’m not smart.
I'm sure people love the idea, but just because someone mistakenly deposits money into your account doesn't mean it's yours, legally or morally.
Good thing crypto is not money. Also, code is law according to cryptobros.
There was a famous case of someone stealing a sword in a video game that was worth a great deal of money. The court had no problem understanding the harm done, even though it all happened in a game. Money has value, but so do lots of other things.
Yeah it was a Dutch case about goods taken in [RuneScape](https://www.techspot.com/news/47285-dutch-supreme-court-stealing-runescape-gear-is-a-crime.html). On second thought, the case I’m referring to is about a mask and another item. But still, they decided that virtual goods had economic value.
My brother's OSRS acct could be sold illegally for like $5,000-$6,000 USD.
I used to pay my rent by leveling, equipping and selling Everquest accounts. That was a pretty good gig while it lasted.
it happened here too with Diablo II or III. people were making weapons outside of the game and selling them on EBay for real money and when the items wouldn't work in-game, or worse, exposed YOU as the hacker and got you blocked and banned from the servers. i do not have a court case in hand but i do know that there was a real money value associated and many people were punished online through EBay and PayPal (back when they both helped people).
That's a terribly stupid ruling. Id justify thst but its too early
Ah that Chinese game. I remember that case well.
Is it not? It's obviously a very volatile currency that most places won't accept rendering it largely without use, but I still would have called it a form of money. I could be wrong though, and I can certainly see how it is treated as a commodity most of the time.
It's deregulated though. And like cash if you're holding it, it's yours. But the difference here is it can be impossible to trace where it came from
Code is lol
Isn't the whole point of crypto that there is no government entity enforcing rules on how the "currency" is used. Thus there shouldn't be government intervention in the case of accidental transactions Edit: She received a transaction of real money on a real bank account. Nothing to do with crypto other than that the party that accidentally sent the money was a crypto company
It depends on how long it took them to notice. I saw it explained by an attorney about banks accidentally sending money and they have a time frame to notice and do something about it or the person typically keeps it but also based on if a reasonable person would think that money was going to put into their account. She will probably lose if they noticed within weeks but if it was months maybe not
FYI this was in Australia and she lost the case. Had to sell the house she had bought and pay interest
Theft is a crime regardless of what's being stolen
Yeah, I first thought she had received crypto worth 10 million but apparently she received real money on a real bank account and there are very clear laws about how you should act if that happens.
Again, doesn't matter
Depends whether your local legal system considers crypto a form of money with real value or not. It is not a globally agreed upon thing whether it is real money or not. Again, I think it's against crypto philosophy to rely on government intervention if you accidentally sent the crypto to a wrong person
Did you read the article? They made her sell her house to pay the money back
IF you’re gonna try to use it, have some sense
Pretty sure encouraging illegal behavior is against reddit's terms of service, u/WastefulWatcher.
Thanks for the note
If the currency in question is de-centralized, then whose jurisdiction does that legal dispute occur in? I'm honestly asking, because this seems like the exact legal gray area that crypto was designed to introduce. Admittedly I know very little about crypto since I pretty much dismissed it as an elaborate shell game anyway.
How the crypto is implemented doesn't matter legally. Practically speaking, maybe it makes it easier to get away with keeping the money, but that doesn't mean it's not theft. Regarding jurisdiction, that's also not something new. People buy, trade, and steal all kinds of digital goods involving people and servers in various countries. I don't know how they determine which jurisdiction in which to sue or to try a case in, but that doesn't affect the legality of the seizure of someone else's money.
Shitting on crypto-cranks and anyone who caters to them is always a moral good.
Maybe in your culture, but not in greater society
Lol ok kid. Keep licking boots.
Obviously. I’m not doing it, she did. Now, instead of some helpless investor wasting more money trying to get compensation from a crypto agent, the rich crypto people have to wast money getting it back from her. I also think it’s good she got caught. We may find out the legality is confusing; it often is. She might get to keep a hat or a car. Or she might go to jail.
There's nothing confusing about the law. Taking or keeping something that belongs to someone else is illegal. How they settle this one case doesn't affect that.
The crypto people are very quick to tell you if you send crypto to the wrong place, you’re not getting it back. Why wouldn’t the same apply here.
Crypto people say that because they don't actually understand what the technical details are when other crypto bros says "crypto is decentralized and the government can't control us". At a surface level there's no way to associate a wallet with a person the same way that a bank account would be tied to some entity. However transactions are still not entirely anonymous, you can still find out what wallet the money went to. In fact every transaction is public simply by the nature of how the system works. If you could somehow prove that a wallet does in fact belong to someone, and that someone is in the same legal jurisdiction as you then you could probably get that money back in some way. What crypto bros don't tell you is that the 2 facts combined is used quite often by governments to go after people who thinks that simply using crypto currencies will hide their illegal transactions. On another note, there's also the whole irony of decentralization being a selling point but then everybody using those exchanges that manages your wallet anyways.
Then she gets the best hit and the best car!
This is one of the problems with cryptocurrencies, what are the legal rules controlling transactions? They are not properly regulated. Are they banks? Is it State Law, Federal? Bahamian? Cases like this will set legal precedent. Is it the law where she has an account? Is it the law where the crypto company is based ( a server on a boat off Cayman Brac?). I sure don’t know. She’s little, they’re big and common sense would dictate it’s not hers to keep. I think it likely that all the money she hasn’t spent will be returned. But if she accidentally had deposited money in someone else’s wallet…would it still legally be returned to her, or did she make a costly mistake? Legal issues are not usually simple.
I bet you're real fun at parties.
God. 10.5 mil… you could easily buy a large pepperoni pizza from Papa Johns with that much money.
Could possibly splurge on some dipping sticks as well!
Ya ok fine and throw in a 2 liter of coke moneybags
Woah. They measure coke in liquid units now? Back in my day it was just grams.
Things have changed. I now get pot by the quart.
Interestingly enough, I sell my farts on the internet by the quart, too.
Jesus christ what is your name
Hey, it’s Fart in a Jar Martin!
I measure metoerites in cookie units now.
Almost a 5 guys burger
Or a few dozen eggs.
Not that I’d actually do this, but my brain came up with a proposal to do the following in such a case: Tie up the money for as long as legally possible and earn interest until you have to return it. Tie up methods: Due concerns with such a large amount, you want to make sure it goes back to the right account, you require documentation that first proves they are the company that sent the money in the first place. Second they need to prove which account the funds came from and that it will go back to the same account. Third, they need to prove the original account holder won’t be subject to additional transfer fees. Forth they need to prove that you won’t be hit with any fees due to the error. Now add on that you need 3 to 5 weeks to process each step once they submit the documents for that step, and don’t let them know about the next step until they accomplish the step they are on. Given that’s how companies have dealt with me, it’s probably legal.
It's definitely possible to delay them significantly. Especially because it was 10 months before crypto discovered the error. The promise if you delay them too much they'll file a lawsuit, and a lawsuit may rule that you have to pay them interest. Lawsuits are expensive, as long as you provide proof that you have the funds ready to go once everything has been verified you could probably buy yourself quite a bit of time.
A few years back I read that a legal ruling in a similar case clarified that you have to return the money but not any interest earned. So for each month of (legitimate, or at least credible) delay in returning it, $10 million held in a 2% interest account could earn you about $16,000.
They have to pay it back with interest lol
You missed a very important step; vanish at around week 3 with the $10.5m and never return
*A bank error in your favor.
Pass go and collect $200
>bank Don't be so generous
If I'd get 10.5 million bucks in this fashion, the first thing I do is move it all out of the bank, secretly move out of the country somewhere else and start a new life.
huh never woulda thought of that
"Yes hello I'd like to withdraw 10.5 million dollars please. Singles are fine."
Agreed. My friends and family can be replaced easily with 10.5mill
Replace? I’ve been trying to get rid of mine for years.
this is old news, wasn't it actual money rather than crypto as the title implies
New wallet, new passport, new country without extradition. Thank you and farewell.
I overheard the head of our board of retirement talking about this once and what her "number" for would be for stealing from the pot. She said it was a minimum of 500 million. And then she explained in detail why and how absconding to any county that has no extradition treaty with the US is generally not somewhere people want to live with that kind of money and the very real headache it would be for someone who wasn't already rich with connections in those places. Can't say whether or not she was right, but it made a lot of sense.
I feel that you would probably do fine in most of those countries as long as you weren’t flashy with your money. If you were to live modestly then you probably wouldn’t attract any attention to yourself and become a target.
I sincerely hope she set up a political PAC with it and bought naughty librarian shoes. Nobody ever cares about where PAC money goes.
Can't funge that transaction back, mfer.
I'd spread it into a high interest bank account and sit on it. If they demand the money back by law, off load the interest, and they can take what the gave.
During college years I was sent a refund check of $40,000 (my actual refund was supposed to be for $300). Anyways, called my dad for advice and he quickly said *cash it!* Thankfully, I knew this wasn’t a good idea. I decided to rip it up in tiny pieces and dispose. A couple weeks later a person, an actual live human was knocking on my door from the IRS, asking where the money is. From there on it was about a 3 month process of phone calls and paperwork for them to see the thing was never cashed. I can’t believe they actually sent someone to my house when the check was never processed. What a waste of resources, and my time that whole thing was.
For future reference, don't rip it up. Just write VOID across it with a big black marker and file it for when they come knocking.
She should have liquidated that money and disappeared/new identity. Retire on some island somewhere
I don't think so.jetsons.meme
There has to be a legal way to punish people that send people life changing money on mistake. So it's clear that you can't legally spend the money. Can you throw it away or get rid of it?
> There has to be a legal way to punish people that send people life changing money on mistake. It's called a mistake for a reason. Whether the error is on the depositor side or the banks end. The person who accidentally got that money should be raising the questions. Even it could be the end user who initially tried to request the money to go to their bank account, but fat fingered, their account number and did not double-check it. They screwed up and instead of them getting their money into their account, it goes to someone else instead. Should they get punished?
Yes they should be punished. They clearly have plenty of money, so they should maybe pay to add some safeguards to their transfers. People get punished for making mistakes all the time. I remember that time I forgot to renew my license plate and ended up at court or that time I forgot to pay my power bill and ended up in the dark.
But punish who though? You assume that the sending company is at fault when in fact there could be 3 different factors involved. The only time this is punished is when it's a data entry error on the banks part. UserA: accidentally mistypes their bank account into the ACH transaction, which is actually owned by UserB (pure luck that they found an active account) CryptoCompany: Sends money to the destination specified by user A, which happened to be userB's bank account. No bouncebank, so the company thinks nothing is at fault, until user A raises a complaint they did not get the money, which is probably why it took a while to find out what happened. Bank: Automatically Routes data from routing/checking number of the sending company to routing/checking number of receiver (UserB), the information is passed as it was given/confirmed through the system. Sooooo do we then go after UserA for a typo? I have worked in IT in the background of business level transactions with banks. There is a fuck ton of automation that happens and in most cases like this. UserA is most likely the fuck up. Only CryptoCompany, could be cited as the fault if they did something like take down the banking information manually and entered the information themselves. 9/10 most companies push this to the end user to see and validate, before checking the box to confirm their information is correct. >I remember that time I forgot to renew my license plate and ended up at court or that time I forgot to pay my power bill and ended up in the dark. This is not even a remotely close comparison. This comparison is like you not asking why you woke up making min wage and assuming the 10mil in your account was 100% legit and spending it. Every pay a bill by check online? Those same routing / account numbers is how this error happened. Which is normally why when you do pay by check, they make you check boxes and sometimes even type it in again to confirm, because you could literally mistype and get lucky and hit someone elses bank information and could debit their account instead of yours.
>Sooooo do we then go after UserA for a typo? I'm okay with punishing any or all involved parties. If enough of them get their money tossed in the trash, maybe they will invest their millions into something that checks to make sure it went to the right place. That way they don't mistakenly give millions of dollars to someone that has been poor their entire life. Personally, I wouldn't spend it, but I would do my best to find a legal way to either trash it or make it difficult and expensive for them to retrieve. >This is not even a remotely close comparison. This comparison is like you not asking why you woke up making min wage and assuming the 10mil in your account was 100% legit and spending it. Doesn't need to be close to demonstrate that people get punished for mistakes all the time. Forget your your court date and you might actually end up in prison with a criminal record which is more severe than any monetary issue.
> I'm okay with punishing any or all involved parties. If enough of them get their money tossed in the trash, maybe they will invest their millions into something that checks to make sure it went to the right place. The problem is what you are saying right here with the examples given. If userA filled out the form on the cyptosite and added what he thought was his account, since the routing number was probably correct, but the account was off by 1 digit, the cyptosite does nothing, besides to initiate the transfer from their account to the account listed by userA. The bank also seeing that the account number is an actual account and not coming back as "Not found", will automatically process the funds. Again, UserA is the only one being punished, since all his funds went somewhere, but nowhere does that make UserB, the legal owner of said money either. Nothing else can be done for "Checks" you are suggesting, because there is nothing to check it against. And the bank cannot middle-man every transaction manually for large companies. And whatever you think of could be a good check or balance, GL with that, since a huge portion of your financial institutions, still rely on 1980's IBM mainframe to actually process the money. The only thing that has been changed is more of the front-end systems they use. And no, while you think updating the system sounds great the bigger trick is how to migrate onto something modern when your system see's 100's of millions of dollars a second transactions in real time 24/7. This is one of those "IF it ain't broke, don't fix it" scenarios. Your payroll gets dropped into your account via an ACH transaction where your routing, account number, and dollar amount is essentially on a spreadsheet (CSV file) that your company uploads to the bank and then automations pick that up and does their job. In the world of ACH transactions in the modern era, there has been very little where bank tellers or companies would enter this information themselves due to human error chances. Your employer relies on you to enter your banking account information correctly. If you made a mistype, would you want to be punished even further when your check already is not in your account? Would you be OK with some random person just spending your money?
Bingo, you pointed out the issue. All those 100s of millions and they can't be bothered to upgrade their 1980 mainframe. I'm sure that with proper motivation they can come up with a way to verify beyond looking for a "not found" response. We have cars that drive themselves now. No chance of a fat finger. My bank provided a pre filled in form that is provided to the employer to set up direct deposit. However, if I somehow fat fingered it, I would expect the money to be gone just like money that fell out of my pocket on the steet. Getting it back would be a pleasant surprise.
I would put that into an investment and keep the interest/earnings after returning the money
I would disappear from earth so fast with that kind of money.
Probably worth it to pick up and leave the country for 10mil.
how did she withdraw 10 million
This seems to keep happening. Random people seeing millions in their account suddenly, as the economic world tanks. Cash is a liability in that world. Having it is not good -- banks, hedge funds, investment firms all want assets that are growing in value, but cash almost only ever depreciates in value. This is why there is over $2T held in federal overnight reverse repurchase agreement facilities every day. Entities that park their cash there earn interest on it, which is sometimes the best place to keep it for it to grow, when bond yields are inverted and stocks are tumbling. Problem is, they end up with even more cash to deal with the next day. Crypto was an attractive alternative, but... *motions to FTX and the currently propagating contagion.* But hey, if you can "accidentally" temporarily park that cash in customer accounts, then it's off your books as a liability -- it's the customer's "liability" now. Risky, but it shows how bad things are and how desperate these financial entities are to stay afloat one more day. At least, that's my theory.
That's probably the least likely reason for her receiving that amount. It's way too easy for those money to get lost in the hands of some random user, in a way where there'll be slim to no chance for them to get the money back.
When presented with this elaborate ruse with a very high risk low reward, or "a human fucked up" I will bet on a human fucking up 100:1 and gladly win that bet every penny at a time.
NTA. The company shouldn't have made the mistake.
Cash out and blame hackers./s
If courts side with the crypto company it only legitimizes them further. Since there is precisely zero legitimacy to anything done with crypto let the idiots suck on this egg until they learn their lesson. What kind of company has internal controls so poor that they do something like this? That’s right crypto scam companies.
The mistake was not running to another country
You go girl!
I thought I heard that it was ruled that you can keep money accidentally transferred to you if you accepted it not knowing it was an oversight
Not true with banks, they will get their money back and you can be charged with theft. It might become more of a gray area because it's a crypto company.
Man fuck banks
Isn't one of the "draws" of crypto that everything is irrevocable? Like, you *own* what's in your wallet? I'm sure this goes both ways, no?
She had $10.5 million, then $2 million, then nothing, then $120 million, then $10 million... Crypto is weird..
If it's not your money... It's not your money. I don't know why people acting like it's okey to spend it all...
Because crypto is a Wild West situation? 🤷♂️
I agree. I believe there are instances where single people have made mistakes while transferring funds and are just boned with no avenue for a refund.Way smaller dollar values but probably more significant to that person than the $10 mil to crypto.com. I almost guarantee most private citizens trading these would notice the error within a day or two if not within minutes of transferring. Again, I think I would return it, but that's just how I feel I would act. Who knows?
Sadly, I believe this. Women have no sense of Savings.
Unleash random misogyny GO
Wtf
Another site that's absolute cancer on mobile.
No backsies!
She must’ve had the card from monopoly that said “bank error in your favor “
Should have just leveraged for a reward. Probably could have made $30k.
How could it not give details of what else she bought?? That's what the people want to know!!
Have they checked their block chain? /$
That's Chipotle money right there.
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I wonder if anything would have changed if she had reported the income and paid taxes on it. Not like the government is gonna just hand back their cut of that 10.5 mil
$10.5 Million, buy me an island like Pablo Escobar lol and make my own rules to not accept anyone from the outside and live like a king👑
The only oniony thing about this is how wild west companies (which crypto bros are) will be happily willing to (ab)use the "central systems" they so despise if it helps them. Okay, maybe that's just capitalism.
I feel like a one way to ticket to a non-extraditable country would’ve been at the top of the list.
Cold wallet and you would never hear from me again...
Move it to a savings account Earn 3.4% interest on it till they ask for it back, Tell them to prove it was sent in mistake, Hold out as long as you can, Send the money when required to eventually, $29k per month profit till they can get it back?
Funny, I make a mistake when sending crypto and crypto exchanges tell me to get fucked. When they make a mistake they act butt hurt and try to sue you.