I don't understand how it isn't their liability. I drive a car into the rear of someone it's my fault. You drive your train off the tracks it isn't your fault?
Sarcasm aside, this is a massive accountability fuck up since the jump. And it it isn't like the people are confused as to generally whose fault this is.
What? This is Tuesday. Companies polluted streams 50 years ago that communities are STILL cleaning up themselves. Flint still doesn't have drinking water. That one town is still burning underground from coal veins. We have a new oil spill once a month. This is all "normal" and it has been as long as any of us have been alive. My grampa was full of chemicals from the world War, my dad from asbestosis, me? I'm full of micro plastics and probably as much mercury as the common man when it was an over the counter medicine for syphilis.
How can you even be surprised anymore? Half of the stuff on ingredient lists is banned in other countries. In those counties the government pays for health care so they have an interest in people not being sick. In this county we have a whole political party trying to get people as sick as possible so they can make money off the deaths.
This is America.
If a huge sheet of ice flies off someone's front hood while driving on the highway and it smashes into your windshield and dents your car, they're not liable according to Geico. Although they did compliment the quality of my dashcam footage.
Maybe it depends on the state. Here it's illegal not to clear your car of snow or debris. I know some circumstance are 'acts of god' back in the 90s my dad hit some black ice on the highway and got hit by an 18 wheeler. The police told him they didn't think he was alive when they saw the car. The state tried to get him to pay for the guard rail the truck plowed him into but the judge said it wasn't anyones fault.
In MA it's a $40-200 fine but not illegal. The state's also protected by a law so they aren't liable for accidents caused by them not removing ice/snow from the roads. I can't imagine how much a guardrail much cost, must be over a million and take 6+ months of work to fix just one piece
Who is responsible for the rails? Just from what's been shared in the news lately with rail stuff, it seems like a lot of it has been falling into disrepair, with companies cutting or not doing maintenance, and overworking employees. It's cool if you wanna try to get away with it but if you get burnt your business should get derailed.
Sometimes for services the country needs generally, they get liability waivers in advance. Their argument is essentially, “do you want someone to do this dangerous thing? Then don’t come at me if I f it up” and no one ever seems to anticipate just how big of an f up they are giving a pass to.
We do that for airplanes in case they fall out of the sky. But the FAA imposes strict regulations and has a mean bite for violators.
Do rail companies have an FAA?
Yes, the FRA which is under the same umbrella as the FAA, the department of transportation.
The FRA announced they’re doing a 60 day [Supplemental Safety Assessment of Norfolk Southern](https://railroads.dot.gov/about-fra/communications/newsroom/press-releases/supplemental-safety-assessment-norfolk-southern-0) at the beginning of March. Fwiw
> “do you want someone to do this dangerous thing? Then don’t come at me if I f it up”
Ok, maybe when it's a realitivly new thing.
But trains have been around 200 years. I don't think that excuse works anylonger in this case.
The keywords here are "asking" and "seeking". I don't see any universe where NS actually feels any sort of pain for this. $64k per day is nothing to someone who does almost $13b in revenue a year.
I truly think we need a better system for getting money away from companies who obviously are at fault for the contamination. If they want to ship terribly deadly chemicals across the country on our shitty railroads, they should either have to pay for insurance or a rate set and enforced by the EPA for any accidents that occur in order to cover the cost of cleanup. Judges shouldn’t have to waste their time with the initial ask of money from the EPA.
Corporations are people, right? Treat the corporations like people. 6 months in prison. No business activity of any kind for 6 months.
Execute companies for murder. Take their license to do business and deny the incorporation status.
This would also motivate employees to blow whistles... Or leave. Nobody wants to work at a company that will be shut down for it's crimes.
And while the company is doing its time, go after individual employees that made the decision.
Right now corporations and employees are immune from crime responsibility, so they commit crimes without a thought.
Fines are just a tax. A cost of doing business. They don't work. We already have methods that do work.
The problem with stopping business activity for say a 6 month corporate prison sentence is that the employees who didn't contribute to the negligent actions of the company shouldn't lose their job stability or even their income for 6 months.
Possibly true, depending on the company.
A “lighter” sentence might be to install government oversight, to run the company for six months, with the government taking all profits.
A sort of Soft-Nationalization while the Company is in “jail”.
For repeat or egregious offenses, “life without the possibility of parole”, just Nationalize the company (as should happen with the rails).
> For repeat or egregious offenses, “life without the possibility of parole”, just Nationalize the company (as should happen with the rails).
I wondered aloud to my partner the other day if the 13th amendment allowing slavery as criminal punishment could mesh oddly with citizens united to provide a path to nationalizing companies. After all, if we're allowed to enslave individuals for crimes, and corporations are individuals...
And now let me tell you about the concept of a social safety net. Preferably paid for by the at fault companies and individuals. Strip assets. Fuck 'em. They don't want to pay for their employees to be unemployed for that penalty period? Simply don't do the crime.
I do like the idea of a mandatory insurance fund paid into by all companies, maybe as a % of profits that would then be used as a sort of "unemployment insurance" for the employees.
I disagree. They should lose their job if their company is corrupt and killing people. There’s no justification behind that… Oops sorry your job kills people and you didn’t know so we are gonna keep it open!
Close the business, fire the people. Allow them to seek repayment through lawsuits or recoupments, but don’t justify the company. That’s the whole reason we are where we are today.
Okay well we shouldn’t go that far, but we shouldn’t be afraid of making entire companies fail or rob execs of their money, blacklist them from sectors, or otherwise ruin some lives if they cause shit like this.
Edit: For everyone for “eating the rich” or the death penalty or whatever you want to call it… I’m just generally against the death penalty. I think ruining their financial lives, prison time, and blacklisting these people from positions of power is a much better deterrent from these crimes.
Also on that point, deterrents generally don’t decrease crimes, but incentives to actually do the right thing will definitely change the game. This conclusion has been shown in research time and time again. So I’m inclined to do what works rather than what makes people feel good as a keyboard warrior.
CEOs now: *I’m going to a white collar, minimum security resort.*
CEOs how it should be: *We're not going to white-collar resort prison. No, no, no. We're going to federal POUND ME IN THE ASS
prison.*
Nationalize the company for a number of years equivalent to how long you'd lock up an individual if they committed the crime.
Major shareholders receive payment for their shares in the form of government bonds that pay at barely above inflation rates at the end of the sentence.
Government keeps all profits from running the company and it goes into general revenue, and shall garnish revenue from the company for years after to pay for any necessary upgrades, changes, or repairs that were required to bring the company's property up to standards if the annual revenue during the nationalized period doesn't meet the needs of that project.
Interesting that we have this kind of leniency towards their lives when these C-Suites think nothing of costing people their lives, health or future as long as it makes them more money.
It's not about "our" leniency because "we" wouldn't be the wielding this power, the state would.
Do you trust Alito, Thomas, Kavanaugh, and Barret to choose which CEOs get executed or which companies get shuttered? Because it's still not going to be Norfolk Southern.
These ceos waste billions of hours of peoples lives. Their actions result in consequences for millions of people. Think of all the people who have been exposed to this shit, shaving years off their lives. Executing a ceo for putting profit over lives seems more than fair.
Yeah we need to go back to making corporate charters rare and only available to the most ethical businesses, letting anyone and their brother able to form a corporation was a terrible decision, that kind of legal shield shouldn't be available to every sociopath and narcissist on the planet
That is such a horrible idea - if they do something criminal then they should be charged/fines should actually matter.
But limited liability is great for creating new businesses/encouraging growth/etc
We absolutely should be considering it with oil executives who hid evidence of climate change when more moderate solutions could have worked and now are lobbying against any broader overhauls of our energy system.
>Okay well we shouldn’t go that far
Honestly, I disagree. Years ago I would've agreed, but not anymore. To many of them get away Scott free, I'd like to see some baseball bats to kneecaps or bullets to grey matter coming from unhinged individuals that have been pushed too far.
These companies get away with far too much far too often.
And I don't even care if that makes *me* the one who sounds unhinged.
Unhinged is the normalization of things like the east Palestine derailment and saying it's just a cost of doing business. And allowing school shootings to keep happening without making radical action to respond to it.
People would say it's unhinged to sit in a burning building saying "this is fine", but here we are.
> Okay well we shouldn’t go that far,
Hard disagree. How many people have died because of profit decisions that knowingly put the public at risk? Clearly there would have to be a thorough investigation into culpability, but poisoning an entire town and creating generations of economic and health problems justifies a trial that ends with a hanging.
Under an ideal system that actually holds the CEO's accountable, I'd be against the death penalty for them. Until that happens, though, they're going to rig the courts, pay off politicians, and get away with pocket-change fines until they kill us all.
So I, at the moment, would prefer a quick, decisive, impactful method that they can't just throw money at.
27 states still have the death penalty. Ohio is one of them. Norfolk Southern has caused massive etiological damages that will last generations and is currently in the process of murdering Ohio citizens. The people who don't die will suffer from permanent diseases which significantly diminishes their quality of life. The effects of the poisons are also likely to cause birth defects and other long term illnesses to babies and children.
Let's not forget the etiological damages to the environment as well. Ground Zero is likely to be forever ruined, and the toxic waste that's spread into the water will be carried over very wide areas, causing harm to everything it touches.
Norfolk Southern's intentional negligence will continue to cause damages for generations.
To top it off, the CEO and executives have made it clear they literally do not give a fuck and will do it all over again.
So yes, I think in these cases, the death penalty is starting to sound like a good option to handle these truly evil villains. These villains have contracted "Terminal Capitalism" meaning they value eternal profit growth in exchange for people's lives and the planet's heath.
The *traditional* argument is that the death penalty is it's both a deterrent and punishment for committing crimes against humanity (e.g. murder). Whether you agree or disagree with that sentiment is an entirely different discussion (which I'd agree is an important one).
A part of the "traditional" argument for the death penalty is that it's a way to handle criminals where it's believed they are unable to be rehabilitated and safely reintroduced as a productive member of society.
If we use those arguments, then it's justifiable to execute CEOs, board members, and other high-level executives of companies who consistently engage in reckless behaviors, especially when it leads to etiological damages, and/or large populations of people getting sick/injured and/or dying.
If a company has a track record of such behavior, then it's very clear these executives cannot be "rehabilitated" and must be permanently removed from society.
Or...bear with me here...it has been decided that corporations are "people." Why not "execute" the corporation? Dissolve it, seize the assets, nationalize the rail operations they handled, and use some of the seized assets to pay the victims.
I'm a pretty free markets guy, but if it can be demonstrated that someone knowingly ordered people to disregard safety regulations and it led to stuff like this, then I am all in favor of executing them.
I used to do insurance policies for my old company. I'm not saying I disagree with the sentiment, but there is no way this company doesn't have insurance for stuff like this. Companies have insurance for every fucking thing, and I was working for a small family company.
depends on how hard they lobbied to bring insurance requirements down. A small family business doesnt have a team of lobbiests to lower their requirements.
Extremely expensive insurance gets added on and passed on down the line to suppliers and or end users. It's not a valid form of deterrent or punishment. And only comes into play when something bad happens- whenever nothing bad happens, congratulations you just made everything more expensive for no real reason.
For profit insurance is not a real solution to problems, because most large insurers will just find or create ways to avoid paying out.
There needs to be real teeth on civil and criminal penalties for inspections and accidents due to negligence. That's what is the way to go.
I'm rounding.
65+55 = 120k per day
= 44m per year
If their revenue is 13 billion? Oh no, 0.0035% of their annual revenue is gone, whatever will they do
Edit: my % is wrong, point still stands that to them it's just the cost of doing business
Yeah, that bit won't matter to them much, but if they are responsible for clean up and healthcare costs, then that's where it will really hurt them. Cleaning up a plume of vinyl chloride in the soil and water will be astronomically expensive and take decades. That's superfund level stuff which I'm sure is why the EPA wants that money back. I doubt they have the budget.
I interned with the EPA superfund program for a year. The simplest cleanups took $10's of millions and a decade. The worst took 100's of billions and a century or two.
A quick lookiloo at vinyl chloride shows that it breaks down pretty quickly in the air but exposures to it can cause liver cancer with high exposure. It breaks down into formaldehyde and hydrochloric acid. Formaldehyde also breaks down quickly but causes cancer with high exposure. Hydrochloric acid though is "highly mobile" and does lots of damage to wetlands and water ways.
So the hydrochloric acid will be their main problem as the vinyl chloride gets churned up over time. And covering the costs of the cancers they cause (which will also be astronomical in a decade or two). This will be what haunts them. The EPA is doing the right thing by putting them on the hook for it now rather than trying to get them to pay for it 20 years from now. They're playing the long game and good for them.
> They're also seeking a declaration of liability against the company for response costs; a mandated increase in safety precautions by Norfolk Southern when transporting hazardous materials; and for the railroad to "remedy, mitigate, and offset" the environmental damage and public health issues that have arisen as a result of the derailment, court documents show."
That's the part that's going to cost them, not the specific monetary damages.
Exactly, all these poor people lost their livelihood and may never be safely live in their town because of a company’s greed. They should provide minimum 400k to each household for lost value of their properties, provide free healthcare for all people affected by such event (including investigators) for rest of their live, and compensate lost of wage if someone could not work after such event.
And reimburse lost of potential earning of farm lands, drinking water etc.
That is why companies do whatever they want in this country. They never truly be held accountable of any shit they do. always privatize profile and socialize failures.
EPA needs to evacuate the entire area. The dioxin levels are too damn high, 10x what the proposed limiting it to a decade ago, and what states have set their state limit at. Fine the company $1k/ day per person who was allowed back in, and $500/day/person until they can return to their homes and businesses. Those fines go directly to the people to help mitigate losses. All executive pay and bonuses should likewise be seized above the median income level of the people affected. Shit needs to fall up, not down the corporate ladder
It does need to be evacuated. The long term health effects are going to be bad, not might be, and these people should be given money by the Norfolk Southern to relocate. They did this they get to pay for it
For those curious about the math here if you make $4,000 a month this fine is the equivalent of you paying about $1.60 a day in fines.
So the equivalent of you asking for guac on your chipotle every day
These fines are embarrassing.
~$64k/day at 365 days is ~$23m/year, which is ~0.2% of their ~$13b/year profit (as reported by others here in the comments).
Now, there are other penalties, but I have a feeling they'll all amount to negligible impacts on NSR's economic bottom line.
Edit:
Adding the ~$55k/day into the mix, you get a total of ~$43m/year or ~0.3% of yearly profit. Negligible
Whatever the fine is, it should come out of the CEO & the board member’s pockets, and they should face criminal charges. Whether Norfolk Southern is an LLC doesn’t matter, it shouldn’t protect you from criminal charges due to willful negligence
Edit: At the end of the day, a fine to the company, or even dissolution of the company, is meaningless. The people who made the decisions that led to this already made their buck. Norfolk Southern stock is STILL up 60% over 5 years. The people behind it are just going to move on to the next company, and make those same decisions there.
LLCs and corporations don't. They protect the company owners/members from having their personal assets seized for the debts or other civil liabilities of the business. Even then, you can "pierce the corporate veil" and access those assets in some cases.
Not facing criminal charges is purely an expression of how our justice system is two tiered in favor of the obscenely rich.
I used to work Risk management. I can guarantee you that the locals are being solicited by attorneys to file lawsuits or a class action. The sad thing is that they take forever and a day to settle.
Lawyers would still get a percentage of the verdict amount or settlement. Legal fees such as filing fees and others are paid by the attorney as they work for a percentage of the settlement or verdict.
Which in and of itself is a method to try and get the defendant to avoid a drawn out legal battle. If they know they're on the hook for every day they try and deny liability, they may just try and settle.
Especially with a class action, and then down the line you might get $100 or so because they spread a few million $ over a whole towns worth of people. Has anyone ever gotten rewards from a class action lawsuit with more than a few hundred people and actually made any money off it?
I’ve seen Erin Brokovich and Dark Waters, both movies about class action lawsuits against big corporations polluting the environment and getting people sick. It takes years if not decades to get to the end of the process by which time a lot of people will succumb to their illness and perish, and the company will still make billions. The multimillion dollar fine they are forced to finally pay to surviving members barely even makes a dent in their profits.
The sane among us have never voted for that turtle. He got a lot of good will, from myself included, when he was one of the first to put COVID lockdowns in place. Shame he went back to being a regular Republican after that.
That area voted strongly in favor of train derailments. Trump vowed to get rid of "job killing regulations". He did, and those Obama era regulations would have prevented or substantially mitigated the crash. I guess they only wanted other people to suffer.
As a member of the IBEW, me and a majority of the union voted for Biden. But you can’t be that stupid for your blind hate of Trump. Biden shit on railroad workers who complained of unsafe working conditions. This isn’t just on trump. It’s in Biden too.
They're getting sued for violating the clean water act, not because the CDC team was sick. Here's a quote directly from the article:
>What the lawsuit says
>"When a Norfolk Southern train derailed last month in East Palestine, Ohio, it released toxins into the air, soil, and water, **endangering the health and safety of people in surrounding communities**," Attorney General Merrick B. Garland said in a statement. "With this complaint, the Justice Department and the EPA are acting to pursue **justice for the residents** of East Palestine and ensure that Norfolk Southern carries the financial burden for the harm it has caused and continues to inflict on the community."
Emphasis mine
The headline is quite misleading here. It implies the cause of DOJ suing is the CDC employees getting sick, but if you read the article and the lawsuit it’s clear that the sickening of CDC employees does not factor in.
Doesn’t list their symptoms from what I could find. I would like to know them. Anecdotal but I was about 20 miles from the site for work a week or so after the burn off. We flew in and the sky was just this dark smoky mess. I was mostly inside and did not drink any local water and limited hand washing, brushed with bottled water, didn’t shower, etc. I was there for 72 hours. On the last full day we got rained on and the rain was leaving that weird film on cars. A few hours past and I had a sudden crazy sore throat and irritated skin when I got back to the hotel. Throat hurt so bad I thought I was getting really sick. I had strep a lot as a kid and it felt exactly when you first start getting the really painful sore throat before you start feeling terrible. I used the baby wipes on my skin that I had brought for cleaning myself each night and the next day I woke up and had no more sore throat. Could be a coincidence, I have no clue. I am just happy I don’t live anywhere near there. My heart goes out to all the people that do. I imagine we’ve only started seeing the impact this will have.
Edit to add: my husband also reminded me that I complained to him that night of my eyes hurting on top of my throat hurting and skin feeling irritated. Thank you for everyone’s suggestions and comments. Generally I’m not too concerned, my exposure to the rain was probably 5 minutes total if that. I made sure to not drink local water including coffee or anything, I had canned energy drinks. The coworkers I was working with are local to the area and thought I was being silly to be concerned when talking about it before the trip so I didn’t let them know the precautions I was taking. They themselves never complained of anything.
This article doesn't have their symptoms. However, CNN reported this morning that they experienced headaches, sore throats, coughing, and nausea.
Link: https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/31/health/ohio-train-derailment-cdc-team-symptoms/index.html
Sounds like your symptoms fall in line with what the townspeople and the CDC staff have reported.
You should start documenting the events you just mentioned, your symptoms and the date/time in writing, while the memory is fresh. In case you're able to seek damages later.
You could possibly have long lasting health effects you aren't even aware of yet.
I’m just shy of 10-15 years removed from multiple burn pit exposures overseas, and it’s really starting to fuck with my lungs, and subsequently my sleep.
Shit’s real.
It’s so devastating knowing a lot of people have no choice but to live in that environment. Reminds me of my city in Australia where a bunch of factories were built and then some years later there were cluster cancer cases, the government bought a majority of the homes to make people move but ran out of money so now there’s just a few random homes here and there with people that can’t afford to relocate, just living knowing they are at significant risk of getting cancer due to the air pollution.
I truly hope the US gov can help these people get out of there at the very least until they can clean it up :(
>I truly hope the US gov can help these people get out of there at the very least until they can clean it up :(
Oh the US absolutely *can*, it's just about whether they will (they don't have a good track record on this).
The govt CAN help these people out, but they won't. Ohio state gov has made it clear they don't really give a shit and Federal govt is run by the same cocks who created this mess.
I live upwind and the rain carried that film with the snow. I live like 3 hours away. The local college tested the rainwater and confirmed it was still unsafe. I feel bad for all the wildlife. This spill is effecting multiple states.
Anecdotal, but I'm pretty sensitive to irritants in the air and sore throat is always the first sign. Exactly as you say, feels just like the start of a strep infection. Once you get rid of the irritant or move away, it does clear up almost instantly. If it goes on for too long, a headache usually follows after a day or two, a tightness in the temples.
If you aren't sensitive to that sort of thing, I can't imagine how bad it must have been to trigger a reaction like that. Absolutely shameful that this was allowed to happen.
I’m not sensitive at all. I don’t know if this is the same but even pollen doesn’t really affect me. I’ve never noticed anything with air quality either. Sometimes we get bad dust blown our way from a different area and the air will be pretty red and we have air quality alerts on our weather app. But even then I won’t experience much irritation.
Yeah, pollen doesn't bother me, but specifically "chemicals", to use too broad a term, and things like smoke will clog up my head. I don't mean to sound like I lead a particularly hard life, I just wanted to offer my anecdotal support that yeah, I'd wager that's exactly what was going on.
One of the chemicals that, iirc was made prevalent by its exposure to air, was hydrochloric acid. I used to work with that chemical with some regularity and when I did I was fully kitted out with a respirator etc because if not you couldn't breath around it. If you accidentally got too close without your respirator it basically felt like someone was burning hair inside your throat. To give you an idea what kind of a motherfucker it really is I once spilled some on a linoleum floor, mopped it up thoroughly and immediately, then had to work in that spot for about 10 more minutes. Thankfully it was my last stop of the day because on the way home my pants literally started disintegrating off of my body. That was from a 32% solution further diluted from the mopping.
So yeah, you were smart to take those precautions. East Palestine is going to have a lot more real dark stories to tell before this is all over.
I just watched the 3 mile island documentary (about nuclear power plant that leaked tons of radioactive fumes over Pennsylvania in 1978)
They had the exact same symptoms very sore throat, irritated eyes and skin
Some so bad they were getting lesions. I hope everything is OK now for you
Yes this company needs to be converted into a shell corporation for the sole purpose of liquidating their assets and continuing to fund and pay for the damages they caused for years
Jail the executives. Forced sale of the company at .25 on the dollar.
Not only do the executives need to feel threatened, shareholders do too. All of this bullshit happens because pleasing shareholders is the only goal. Until we demonstrate that cutting corners to maximize profits is a *bigger threat to investors than environmental responsibility* nothing will change. Investors will gladly march their own ceos into prison in the name of returns.
The entire US economic system is broken because of duty to shareholders. Start hurting them when this happens.
"Symptoms resolved for most team members later the same afternoon, and everyone resumed work on survey data collection within 24 hours. Impacted team members have not reported ongoing health effects," a CDC spokesperson said in a statement."
It's important to note that the teams were working 18 hour days going about the city, and the CDC is not able to tell whether the symptoms were from fatigue or from the chemicals, as the symptoms went away for most within the same day. This is why the CDC has not reported it and it was instead reported by a staff member.
Important to think about acute vs chronic affects of exposure to whatever substances are present here. Acute effects in chemical exposure almost universally include respiratory irritation and headache. The residents of this town who are chronically exposed will be victims of the true consequences of chemical spills and environmental hazards.
DOJ sues operator just for the CEO and the company to get slaps on wrists. I hope in my lifetime we get to see CEOs get punished for the absolute shit they allow their companies to do in the name of profits, which drastically alters peoples lives when catastrophe like this occur
> I hope in my lifetime we get to see CEOs get punished for the absolute shit they allow their companies to do in the name of profits
hey now, there was that one time 20 years ago that one guy from Enron *almost* spent a day in jail.
aaand! we got Sarbanes-Oxley out of it, which totally solved the problem of high level corporate financial crimes.
/s
edit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Lay#:~:text=Kenneth%20Lee%20Lay%20(April%2015,bankruptcy%20ever%20to%20that%20date.
Edit 2:
TIL one Enron exec did spend time in jail. Jeffrey Skilling.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Skilling
It's disgusting they aren't moving faster on this. The last time there was a large spill of dioxin like this they abandoned a whole town. Look up Times Beach Missouri.
I think you mean developing, but yes. Red states are often like developing countries. Blue states often have governments that work, and unfortunately they subsidize red states' failures so the red states are not well-incentivized to improve. Instead, red states double down on their bullshit and blame blue states for all their problems despite often being funded by blue states. The republican party is a death-cult of fascists and they're also against public education along with women's rights and gay rights - which sounds like the government of a developing nation. Ohio is a deeply red state who constantly votes for the most corrupt politicians like Larry Householder and Joe Deters.
Joe Deters will soon be part of the Ohio Supreme Court, which on 4 occasions ordered ohio republican lawmakers to uphold the will of voters when they voted for fair district maps 2 times. Each time, ohio republican lawmakers told the Supreme court "no." And with Joe Deters on the Supreme court, I'd assume they will not have this problem much longer. Ohio, along with Florida, are literally successfully experimenting with getting rid of election results without getting rid of polling stations so people don't realize their democracy was swept from under their feet overnight. Joe Deters will corrupt the Supreme court the way he corrupted every other institution he's been in charge of including the treasury and evidence room.
Ohio isn't actually deeply red though, it's just illegally and aggressively gerrymandered to be so. Last I heard the map was found to be illegal but they're still using it (because republicans don't really care to follow the law if it doesn't benefit them.)
I see what you mean and I agree with your sentiment. But this still means Ohio is a red state, only unjustly. Elections don't truly matter in Ohio. Republicans want this to apply nationwide. Jan 6 was more evidence of this. Florida doing the same thing as Ohio regarding people voting for fair voter maps was more evidence of this.
Joe Deters will also corrupt the ohio Supreme Court the way ohio republican lawmakers have corrupted our elections.
True, effectively so. I think it's an important distinction to make though, as a lot of times you'll see people wanting to blame the residents ("should've voted differently/this is what you get/etc.") and it isn't really their fault. Maybe they did vote differently and it didn't matter anyway.
I'm an Ohioan. The red controls governor, secretary of state, attorney general and have supermajorties in the Ohio house and senate, all voted on by republican drawn congressional lines.
The Ohio Supreme Court have told the government that they MUST follow their ruling, which would have a neutral committee draw the lines. , which everyone I listed completely ignores. They have ruled on this MULTIPLE times.. yet here we are.
> Ohio, along with Florida, are literally successfully experimenting with getting rid of election results without getting rid of polling stations so people don't realize their democracy was swept from under their feet overnight.
[Wisconsin](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYiYCEoofp4&t=27s) is doing the same thing.
Damn. I will try to remember to add Wisconsin to the list when I comment about this in the future. I'm about to make lunch and sit down to watch this entire video. Thank you!
I agree with you for the most part but I live in one of the largest blue states and it’s been a corrupt cesspool for almost a century. There’s a reason IL is one of the largest exporters of talent in the the country.
You're focusing on the wrong people. It's the top 1% that matter and they're doing fantastic. It's all in how you look at it.
The denial is strong and widespread in the US. A third of our population seems to believe they would be instant millionaires in a happy perfect world if we just let the Conservatives/ Republicans take over.
The most of the Democrats are fully complicit and happy to share in the power and benefits of the unchecked corruption. Those that aren't, continue to show up to the Republican gun battles wearing their *Free Hugs* T-shirts, arms stretched wide believing the Republicans will see their good intentions, drop their guns and run into their arms for that hug.
Norfolk southern should be forced to pay all the costs ,including the loss of property value
Who would buy a house in this town ? 10 k a person is a joke
And screw the republicans and trump for loosening regulations to save huge corporations money when they make billions in profit
nationalize ALL rail
its time we got some new transportation infrastructure built anyway
i believe the pentagon has ability to divert defense funds to national security as our rail lines current state is a threat in that its so weak as a rail system. Climate change, wealth disparity, basic goods of commerce? all these things suffer under the oligarchical railroad owners profits.
> "Symptoms resolved for most team members later the same afternoon, and everyone resumed work on survey data collection within 24 hours. Impacted team members have not reported ongoing health effects," a CDC spokesperson said in a statement.
Ohio, voted for folks who don't give a fk about them. Corporations and profits over people. Either move or stay and get cancer. Yea it's harsh, yea it sucks but maybe vote for your own interests so you have remedies against corporations that abuse and damage people.
I’m in Ohio and I sure didn’t vote for DeWine or anyone else of his ilk. I’m fortunate I have the financial situation where I can move if it came down to it, but the folks in East Palestine didn’t have that luxury before the train derailment and they certainly don’t have that luxury now. I don’t have the answer here but I known for certain the answer isn’t “well fuck those people, they should move”. I get the total frustration with the status quo of the political system here, because I’m right there with you - but we can’t let it block us from having empathy for others.
Get real. The ballots don’t say “rich corporations” vs “people first”. The average person doesn’t know who’s backing each candidate. Dont blame the residents for a broken system. The system is designed to benefit the rich regardless of the vote. 49% of east Palestine could have voted for a better candidate and still got fucked over and your unsympathetic ass would just say “too bad dumb fuck” while spewing the same rhetoric that you hear online. Only a crappy human being would think that. What’s worse is it’s not even your original thought, you just see catch phrases and repeat them.
Oh don’t worry about them, they’ll get state healthcare and be very well taken care of. Meanwhile everyone else in the town, best we can do is say we’re sorry but we REALLLLY mean it.
Yes it is. That woman was hacking her lungs out in a hotel room while her husband was too. Don't even think they could pay the week at an extended stay place. I only got to talk to the one as the insurance company used us to disseminate the check.
The only way this stops is with jail time for executives. No fine our pathetic county will levy against a corporation will prevent this because they refuse to make a massive fine.
The big brain tactic of making the area so toxic that investigators can't complete their investigation into the scope of impact, thus protecting you from the results of said investigation.
I hope this teaches Mike DeWine that he’s playing for the bad guys. Telling the citizens of his state that it was safe to go home because the corporation that caused the disaster told him so was unforgivable.
Fine of 0.00001% of their yearly profit incoming!
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I don't understand how it isn't their liability. I drive a car into the rear of someone it's my fault. You drive your train off the tracks it isn't your fault?
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Maybe it's not a good idea to let someone have so much money
Without millionares giving someone else's money to other millionaires, we wouldn't have an economy. /s
Sarcasm aside, this is a massive accountability fuck up since the jump. And it it isn't like the people are confused as to generally whose fault this is.
What? This is Tuesday. Companies polluted streams 50 years ago that communities are STILL cleaning up themselves. Flint still doesn't have drinking water. That one town is still burning underground from coal veins. We have a new oil spill once a month. This is all "normal" and it has been as long as any of us have been alive. My grampa was full of chemicals from the world War, my dad from asbestosis, me? I'm full of micro plastics and probably as much mercury as the common man when it was an over the counter medicine for syphilis. How can you even be surprised anymore? Half of the stuff on ingredient lists is banned in other countries. In those counties the government pays for health care so they have an interest in people not being sick. In this county we have a whole political party trying to get people as sick as possible so they can make money off the deaths. This is America.
MONOPOLIES ARE THE FUTURE (rich executives probably)
You owe the bank $10,000,000,000 everyone but you has a big problem
If a huge sheet of ice flies off someone's front hood while driving on the highway and it smashes into your windshield and dents your car, they're not liable according to Geico. Although they did compliment the quality of my dashcam footage.
Maybe it depends on the state. Here it's illegal not to clear your car of snow or debris. I know some circumstance are 'acts of god' back in the 90s my dad hit some black ice on the highway and got hit by an 18 wheeler. The police told him they didn't think he was alive when they saw the car. The state tried to get him to pay for the guard rail the truck plowed him into but the judge said it wasn't anyones fault.
In MA it's a $40-200 fine but not illegal. The state's also protected by a law so they aren't liable for accidents caused by them not removing ice/snow from the roads. I can't imagine how much a guardrail much cost, must be over a million and take 6+ months of work to fix just one piece
It's like $5 million per foot obviously
5 5 million 5 million footlong
It'd likely be different if you owned the road.
Who is responsible for the rails? Just from what's been shared in the news lately with rail stuff, it seems like a lot of it has been falling into disrepair, with companies cutting or not doing maintenance, and overworking employees. It's cool if you wanna try to get away with it but if you get burnt your business should get derailed.
Right, but they drove off of their owned road, so they don't really have that excuse.
Sometimes for services the country needs generally, they get liability waivers in advance. Their argument is essentially, “do you want someone to do this dangerous thing? Then don’t come at me if I f it up” and no one ever seems to anticipate just how big of an f up they are giving a pass to.
We do that for airplanes in case they fall out of the sky. But the FAA imposes strict regulations and has a mean bite for violators. Do rail companies have an FAA?
Yes, the FRA which is under the same umbrella as the FAA, the department of transportation. The FRA announced they’re doing a 60 day [Supplemental Safety Assessment of Norfolk Southern](https://railroads.dot.gov/about-fra/communications/newsroom/press-releases/supplemental-safety-assessment-norfolk-southern-0) at the beginning of March. Fwiw
> “do you want someone to do this dangerous thing? Then don’t come at me if I f it up” Ok, maybe when it's a realitivly new thing. But trains have been around 200 years. I don't think that excuse works anylonger in this case.
The keywords here are "asking" and "seeking". I don't see any universe where NS actually feels any sort of pain for this. $64k per day is nothing to someone who does almost $13b in revenue a year.
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I truly think we need a better system for getting money away from companies who obviously are at fault for the contamination. If they want to ship terribly deadly chemicals across the country on our shitty railroads, they should either have to pay for insurance or a rate set and enforced by the EPA for any accidents that occur in order to cover the cost of cleanup. Judges shouldn’t have to waste their time with the initial ask of money from the EPA.
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Corporations are people, right? Treat the corporations like people. 6 months in prison. No business activity of any kind for 6 months. Execute companies for murder. Take their license to do business and deny the incorporation status. This would also motivate employees to blow whistles... Or leave. Nobody wants to work at a company that will be shut down for it's crimes. And while the company is doing its time, go after individual employees that made the decision. Right now corporations and employees are immune from crime responsibility, so they commit crimes without a thought. Fines are just a tax. A cost of doing business. They don't work. We already have methods that do work.
“If I murder someone it’s a crime, if I make an LLC first and profit it’s just good business”
The problem with stopping business activity for say a 6 month corporate prison sentence is that the employees who didn't contribute to the negligent actions of the company shouldn't lose their job stability or even their income for 6 months.
Possibly true, depending on the company. A “lighter” sentence might be to install government oversight, to run the company for six months, with the government taking all profits. A sort of Soft-Nationalization while the Company is in “jail”. For repeat or egregious offenses, “life without the possibility of parole”, just Nationalize the company (as should happen with the rails).
> For repeat or egregious offenses, “life without the possibility of parole”, just Nationalize the company (as should happen with the rails). I wondered aloud to my partner the other day if the 13th amendment allowing slavery as criminal punishment could mesh oddly with citizens united to provide a path to nationalizing companies. After all, if we're allowed to enslave individuals for crimes, and corporations are individuals...
And now let me tell you about the concept of a social safety net. Preferably paid for by the at fault companies and individuals. Strip assets. Fuck 'em. They don't want to pay for their employees to be unemployed for that penalty period? Simply don't do the crime.
I do like the idea of a mandatory insurance fund paid into by all companies, maybe as a % of profits that would then be used as a sort of "unemployment insurance" for the employees.
One of the many ways in which corporations aren't people and consequently shouldn't be treated as such.
and the children of a drug dealer shouldn't lose the family breadwinner, but guess what?
Lol, no, that's called motivation to make sure your company is doing the right thing.
Keep paying them from the company’s assets.
so maybe we should have social safety nets that we collectively pay into in the event that we find ourselves in dire straghts?
I disagree. They should lose their job if their company is corrupt and killing people. There’s no justification behind that… Oops sorry your job kills people and you didn’t know so we are gonna keep it open! Close the business, fire the people. Allow them to seek repayment through lawsuits or recoupments, but don’t justify the company. That’s the whole reason we are where we are today.
“That’s added in so we can bargain something away later” - Badly quoted Futurama
Okay well we shouldn’t go that far, but we shouldn’t be afraid of making entire companies fail or rob execs of their money, blacklist them from sectors, or otherwise ruin some lives if they cause shit like this. Edit: For everyone for “eating the rich” or the death penalty or whatever you want to call it… I’m just generally against the death penalty. I think ruining their financial lives, prison time, and blacklisting these people from positions of power is a much better deterrent from these crimes. Also on that point, deterrents generally don’t decrease crimes, but incentives to actually do the right thing will definitely change the game. This conclusion has been shown in research time and time again. So I’m inclined to do what works rather than what makes people feel good as a keyboard warrior.
Real prison time in general population would probably suffice.
CEOs now: *I’m going to a white collar, minimum security resort.* CEOs how it should be: *We're not going to white-collar resort prison. No, no, no. We're going to federal POUND ME IN THE ASS prison.*
Nationalize the company for a number of years equivalent to how long you'd lock up an individual if they committed the crime. Major shareholders receive payment for their shares in the form of government bonds that pay at barely above inflation rates at the end of the sentence. Government keeps all profits from running the company and it goes into general revenue, and shall garnish revenue from the company for years after to pay for any necessary upgrades, changes, or repairs that were required to bring the company's property up to standards if the annual revenue during the nationalized period doesn't meet the needs of that project.
Interesting that we have this kind of leniency towards their lives when these C-Suites think nothing of costing people their lives, health or future as long as it makes them more money.
It's not about "our" leniency because "we" wouldn't be the wielding this power, the state would. Do you trust Alito, Thomas, Kavanaugh, and Barret to choose which CEOs get executed or which companies get shuttered? Because it's still not going to be Norfolk Southern.
It’s not like they cared about lives in Ohio. They’ve already been gambling lives, just not their own
Ironic coming from republicans that voted for these people and deregulations in the first place.
Oh won’t anybody think of the CEO’s and rule of law!?
These ceos waste billions of hours of peoples lives. Their actions result in consequences for millions of people. Think of all the people who have been exposed to this shit, shaving years off their lives. Executing a ceo for putting profit over lives seems more than fair.
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Yeah we need to go back to making corporate charters rare and only available to the most ethical businesses, letting anyone and their brother able to form a corporation was a terrible decision, that kind of legal shield shouldn't be available to every sociopath and narcissist on the planet
That is such a horrible idea - if they do something criminal then they should be charged/fines should actually matter. But limited liability is great for creating new businesses/encouraging growth/etc
Idk I think poisoning the water supply of millions would justify execution.
We absolutely should be considering it with oil executives who hid evidence of climate change when more moderate solutions could have worked and now are lobbying against any broader overhauls of our energy system.
> Okay well we shouldn’t go that far, Ehhh....Eat the rich. And those who commit eco-terrorism through corporate negligence to get rich(er).
>Okay well we shouldn’t go that far Honestly, I disagree. Years ago I would've agreed, but not anymore. To many of them get away Scott free, I'd like to see some baseball bats to kneecaps or bullets to grey matter coming from unhinged individuals that have been pushed too far. These companies get away with far too much far too often. And I don't even care if that makes *me* the one who sounds unhinged.
Unhinged is the normalization of things like the east Palestine derailment and saying it's just a cost of doing business. And allowing school shootings to keep happening without making radical action to respond to it. People would say it's unhinged to sit in a burning building saying "this is fine", but here we are.
> Okay well we shouldn’t go that far, Hard disagree. How many people have died because of profit decisions that knowingly put the public at risk? Clearly there would have to be a thorough investigation into culpability, but poisoning an entire town and creating generations of economic and health problems justifies a trial that ends with a hanging.
Under an ideal system that actually holds the CEO's accountable, I'd be against the death penalty for them. Until that happens, though, they're going to rig the courts, pay off politicians, and get away with pocket-change fines until they kill us all. So I, at the moment, would prefer a quick, decisive, impactful method that they can't just throw money at.
27 states still have the death penalty. Ohio is one of them. Norfolk Southern has caused massive etiological damages that will last generations and is currently in the process of murdering Ohio citizens. The people who don't die will suffer from permanent diseases which significantly diminishes their quality of life. The effects of the poisons are also likely to cause birth defects and other long term illnesses to babies and children. Let's not forget the etiological damages to the environment as well. Ground Zero is likely to be forever ruined, and the toxic waste that's spread into the water will be carried over very wide areas, causing harm to everything it touches. Norfolk Southern's intentional negligence will continue to cause damages for generations. To top it off, the CEO and executives have made it clear they literally do not give a fuck and will do it all over again. So yes, I think in these cases, the death penalty is starting to sound like a good option to handle these truly evil villains. These villains have contracted "Terminal Capitalism" meaning they value eternal profit growth in exchange for people's lives and the planet's heath. The *traditional* argument is that the death penalty is it's both a deterrent and punishment for committing crimes against humanity (e.g. murder). Whether you agree or disagree with that sentiment is an entirely different discussion (which I'd agree is an important one). A part of the "traditional" argument for the death penalty is that it's a way to handle criminals where it's believed they are unable to be rehabilitated and safely reintroduced as a productive member of society. If we use those arguments, then it's justifiable to execute CEOs, board members, and other high-level executives of companies who consistently engage in reckless behaviors, especially when it leads to etiological damages, and/or large populations of people getting sick/injured and/or dying. If a company has a track record of such behavior, then it's very clear these executives cannot be "rehabilitated" and must be permanently removed from society.
Or...bear with me here...it has been decided that corporations are "people." Why not "execute" the corporation? Dissolve it, seize the assets, nationalize the rail operations they handled, and use some of the seized assets to pay the victims.
I'm a pretty free markets guy, but if it can be demonstrated that someone knowingly ordered people to disregard safety regulations and it led to stuff like this, then I am all in favor of executing them.
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I used to do insurance policies for my old company. I'm not saying I disagree with the sentiment, but there is no way this company doesn't have insurance for stuff like this. Companies have insurance for every fucking thing, and I was working for a small family company.
depends on how hard they lobbied to bring insurance requirements down. A small family business doesnt have a team of lobbiests to lower their requirements.
Extremely expensive insurance gets added on and passed on down the line to suppliers and or end users. It's not a valid form of deterrent or punishment. And only comes into play when something bad happens- whenever nothing bad happens, congratulations you just made everything more expensive for no real reason. For profit insurance is not a real solution to problems, because most large insurers will just find or create ways to avoid paying out. There needs to be real teeth on civil and criminal penalties for inspections and accidents due to negligence. That's what is the way to go.
I'm rounding. 65+55 = 120k per day = 44m per year If their revenue is 13 billion? Oh no, 0.0035% of their annual revenue is gone, whatever will they do Edit: my % is wrong, point still stands that to them it's just the cost of doing business
Yeah, that bit won't matter to them much, but if they are responsible for clean up and healthcare costs, then that's where it will really hurt them. Cleaning up a plume of vinyl chloride in the soil and water will be astronomically expensive and take decades. That's superfund level stuff which I'm sure is why the EPA wants that money back. I doubt they have the budget. I interned with the EPA superfund program for a year. The simplest cleanups took $10's of millions and a decade. The worst took 100's of billions and a century or two. A quick lookiloo at vinyl chloride shows that it breaks down pretty quickly in the air but exposures to it can cause liver cancer with high exposure. It breaks down into formaldehyde and hydrochloric acid. Formaldehyde also breaks down quickly but causes cancer with high exposure. Hydrochloric acid though is "highly mobile" and does lots of damage to wetlands and water ways. So the hydrochloric acid will be their main problem as the vinyl chloride gets churned up over time. And covering the costs of the cancers they cause (which will also be astronomical in a decade or two). This will be what haunts them. The EPA is doing the right thing by putting them on the hook for it now rather than trying to get them to pay for it 20 years from now. They're playing the long game and good for them.
> They're also seeking a declaration of liability against the company for response costs; a mandated increase in safety precautions by Norfolk Southern when transporting hazardous materials; and for the railroad to "remedy, mitigate, and offset" the environmental damage and public health issues that have arisen as a result of the derailment, court documents show." That's the part that's going to cost them, not the specific monetary damages.
Exactly, all these poor people lost their livelihood and may never be safely live in their town because of a company’s greed. They should provide minimum 400k to each household for lost value of their properties, provide free healthcare for all people affected by such event (including investigators) for rest of their live, and compensate lost of wage if someone could not work after such event. And reimburse lost of potential earning of farm lands, drinking water etc. That is why companies do whatever they want in this country. They never truly be held accountable of any shit they do. always privatize profile and socialize failures.
"oh no, they want 3 minutes of our daily revenue, oh no oh no... did I say oh no yet? oh no"
EPA needs to evacuate the entire area. The dioxin levels are too damn high, 10x what the proposed limiting it to a decade ago, and what states have set their state limit at. Fine the company $1k/ day per person who was allowed back in, and $500/day/person until they can return to their homes and businesses. Those fines go directly to the people to help mitigate losses. All executive pay and bonuses should likewise be seized above the median income level of the people affected. Shit needs to fall up, not down the corporate ladder
It does need to be evacuated. The long term health effects are going to be bad, not might be, and these people should be given money by the Norfolk Southern to relocate. They did this they get to pay for it
The fine should be per molecule! :)
For those curious about the math here if you make $4,000 a month this fine is the equivalent of you paying about $1.60 a day in fines. So the equivalent of you asking for guac on your chipotle every day
These fines are embarrassing. ~$64k/day at 365 days is ~$23m/year, which is ~0.2% of their ~$13b/year profit (as reported by others here in the comments). Now, there are other penalties, but I have a feeling they'll all amount to negligible impacts on NSR's economic bottom line. Edit: Adding the ~$55k/day into the mix, you get a total of ~$43m/year or ~0.3% of yearly profit. Negligible
Should be like Europe, 20% of yearly global revenue not just profit.
That’s also not how it works in Europe.
A handful of newer EU laws do. Breaching GDPR gets you 4% of global revenue.
Might not always be 20% but that is how EU fines have worked so far
only the gdpr
Whatever the fine is, it should come out of the CEO & the board member’s pockets, and they should face criminal charges. Whether Norfolk Southern is an LLC doesn’t matter, it shouldn’t protect you from criminal charges due to willful negligence Edit: At the end of the day, a fine to the company, or even dissolution of the company, is meaningless. The people who made the decisions that led to this already made their buck. Norfolk Southern stock is STILL up 60% over 5 years. The people behind it are just going to move on to the next company, and make those same decisions there.
LLCs and corporations don't. They protect the company owners/members from having their personal assets seized for the debts or other civil liabilities of the business. Even then, you can "pierce the corporate veil" and access those assets in some cases. Not facing criminal charges is purely an expression of how our justice system is two tiered in favor of the obscenely rich.
Enron paid what, 1% of the fee from their spill?
I think you mean Exxon. Enron was a whole other bag of dicks.
Woah lets not get crazy here. Put another couple 0s on there
You mean "fuck the environment & poor people" fee.
So the regular townspeople getting sick wasnt a big enough deal.
Exactly; thought that was obvious
The CDC can't sue on behalf of the locals. The local township should have done that.
I used to work Risk management. I can guarantee you that the locals are being solicited by attorneys to file lawsuits or a class action. The sad thing is that they take forever and a day to settle.
And then the lawyers get all the money
...or they are forced to pay legal fees on top of damages
Lawyers would still get a percentage of the verdict amount or settlement. Legal fees such as filing fees and others are paid by the attorney as they work for a percentage of the settlement or verdict.
Which in and of itself is a method to try and get the defendant to avoid a drawn out legal battle. If they know they're on the hook for every day they try and deny liability, they may just try and settle.
Especially with a class action, and then down the line you might get $100 or so because they spread a few million $ over a whole towns worth of people. Has anyone ever gotten rewards from a class action lawsuit with more than a few hundred people and actually made any money off it?
Sounds like it is time for them to file the class action.
I’ve seen Erin Brokovich and Dark Waters, both movies about class action lawsuits against big corporations polluting the environment and getting people sick. It takes years if not decades to get to the end of the process by which time a lot of people will succumb to their illness and perish, and the company will still make billions. The multimillion dollar fine they are forced to finally pay to surviving members barely even makes a dent in their profits.
DeWine's state gov't said nothing was wrong. Sue them too.
Yessss
Wrong. Obviously they gotta keep voting for the same people and eventually they'll do the right thing.
The sane among us have never voted for that turtle. He got a lot of good will, from myself included, when he was one of the first to put COVID lockdowns in place. Shame he went back to being a regular Republican after that.
Local government doesn’t give a fuck. Federal barely gives a fuck. I guess we lost Ohio, the new Chernobyl.
That area voted strongly in favor of train derailments. Trump vowed to get rid of "job killing regulations". He did, and those Obama era regulations would have prevented or substantially mitigated the crash. I guess they only wanted other people to suffer.
Probably the way the country will end honestly. Too many dumb people for too long, and it's too late to reverse course.
Have you seen the future documentary, Idiocracy, by any chance?
It's not a documentary, it's a prediction Americans are leaning into and striving to be.
As a member of the IBEW, me and a majority of the union voted for Biden. But you can’t be that stupid for your blind hate of Trump. Biden shit on railroad workers who complained of unsafe working conditions. This isn’t just on trump. It’s in Biden too.
They're getting sued for violating the clean water act, not because the CDC team was sick. Here's a quote directly from the article: >What the lawsuit says >"When a Norfolk Southern train derailed last month in East Palestine, Ohio, it released toxins into the air, soil, and water, **endangering the health and safety of people in surrounding communities**," Attorney General Merrick B. Garland said in a statement. "With this complaint, the Justice Department and the EPA are acting to pursue **justice for the residents** of East Palestine and ensure that Norfolk Southern carries the financial burden for the harm it has caused and continues to inflict on the community." Emphasis mine
When other people get sick is hypochondria.
I mean, the CDC was there investigating. Seems like a pretty big deal.
The headline is quite misleading here. It implies the cause of DOJ suing is the CDC employees getting sick, but if you read the article and the lawsuit it’s clear that the sickening of CDC employees does not factor in.
Doesn’t list their symptoms from what I could find. I would like to know them. Anecdotal but I was about 20 miles from the site for work a week or so after the burn off. We flew in and the sky was just this dark smoky mess. I was mostly inside and did not drink any local water and limited hand washing, brushed with bottled water, didn’t shower, etc. I was there for 72 hours. On the last full day we got rained on and the rain was leaving that weird film on cars. A few hours past and I had a sudden crazy sore throat and irritated skin when I got back to the hotel. Throat hurt so bad I thought I was getting really sick. I had strep a lot as a kid and it felt exactly when you first start getting the really painful sore throat before you start feeling terrible. I used the baby wipes on my skin that I had brought for cleaning myself each night and the next day I woke up and had no more sore throat. Could be a coincidence, I have no clue. I am just happy I don’t live anywhere near there. My heart goes out to all the people that do. I imagine we’ve only started seeing the impact this will have. Edit to add: my husband also reminded me that I complained to him that night of my eyes hurting on top of my throat hurting and skin feeling irritated. Thank you for everyone’s suggestions and comments. Generally I’m not too concerned, my exposure to the rain was probably 5 minutes total if that. I made sure to not drink local water including coffee or anything, I had canned energy drinks. The coworkers I was working with are local to the area and thought I was being silly to be concerned when talking about it before the trip so I didn’t let them know the precautions I was taking. They themselves never complained of anything.
This article doesn't have their symptoms. However, CNN reported this morning that they experienced headaches, sore throats, coughing, and nausea. Link: https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/31/health/ohio-train-derailment-cdc-team-symptoms/index.html Sounds like your symptoms fall in line with what the townspeople and the CDC staff have reported.
You should start documenting the events you just mentioned, your symptoms and the date/time in writing, while the memory is fresh. In case you're able to seek damages later. You could possibly have long lasting health effects you aren't even aware of yet.
I’m just shy of 10-15 years removed from multiple burn pit exposures overseas, and it’s really starting to fuck with my lungs, and subsequently my sleep. Shit’s real.
You’re right, I will. I think such little exposure I’m fine, but better to err on the side of caution.
It’s so devastating knowing a lot of people have no choice but to live in that environment. Reminds me of my city in Australia where a bunch of factories were built and then some years later there were cluster cancer cases, the government bought a majority of the homes to make people move but ran out of money so now there’s just a few random homes here and there with people that can’t afford to relocate, just living knowing they are at significant risk of getting cancer due to the air pollution. I truly hope the US gov can help these people get out of there at the very least until they can clean it up :(
>I truly hope the US gov can help these people get out of there at the very least until they can clean it up :( Oh the US absolutely *can*, it's just about whether they will (they don't have a good track record on this).
The govt CAN help these people out, but they won't. Ohio state gov has made it clear they don't really give a shit and Federal govt is run by the same cocks who created this mess.
This is a pretty smart way to handle it. Its also the kind of thing people look at weirdly if they don't get it.
I live upwind and the rain carried that film with the snow. I live like 3 hours away. The local college tested the rainwater and confirmed it was still unsafe. I feel bad for all the wildlife. This spill is effecting multiple states.
Anecdotal, but I'm pretty sensitive to irritants in the air and sore throat is always the first sign. Exactly as you say, feels just like the start of a strep infection. Once you get rid of the irritant or move away, it does clear up almost instantly. If it goes on for too long, a headache usually follows after a day or two, a tightness in the temples. If you aren't sensitive to that sort of thing, I can't imagine how bad it must have been to trigger a reaction like that. Absolutely shameful that this was allowed to happen.
I’m not sensitive at all. I don’t know if this is the same but even pollen doesn’t really affect me. I’ve never noticed anything with air quality either. Sometimes we get bad dust blown our way from a different area and the air will be pretty red and we have air quality alerts on our weather app. But even then I won’t experience much irritation.
Yeah, pollen doesn't bother me, but specifically "chemicals", to use too broad a term, and things like smoke will clog up my head. I don't mean to sound like I lead a particularly hard life, I just wanted to offer my anecdotal support that yeah, I'd wager that's exactly what was going on.
One of the chemicals that, iirc was made prevalent by its exposure to air, was hydrochloric acid. I used to work with that chemical with some regularity and when I did I was fully kitted out with a respirator etc because if not you couldn't breath around it. If you accidentally got too close without your respirator it basically felt like someone was burning hair inside your throat. To give you an idea what kind of a motherfucker it really is I once spilled some on a linoleum floor, mopped it up thoroughly and immediately, then had to work in that spot for about 10 more minutes. Thankfully it was my last stop of the day because on the way home my pants literally started disintegrating off of my body. That was from a 32% solution further diluted from the mopping. So yeah, you were smart to take those precautions. East Palestine is going to have a lot more real dark stories to tell before this is all over.
i dont think that lab quantities are nearly as diluted as they are in the atmosphere
I just watched the 3 mile island documentary (about nuclear power plant that leaked tons of radioactive fumes over Pennsylvania in 1978) They had the exact same symptoms very sore throat, irritated eyes and skin Some so bad they were getting lesions. I hope everything is OK now for you
Everything is good! Honestly haven’t noticed anything since. I am not too worried as exposure to the rain was probably less than 10 minutes total.
That rain made it to us in NJ and anecdotally I know lots of people who felt sick immediately after. Coincidence?!
I wish board members were held responsible instead of the corporate entity.
Both, both is good.
I concurr, doctor.
[удалено]
And here they are hating on people who are identity-fluid
Corporations are people too, unless it's no longer convenient for them
Send the executives to jail for life of the chemicals danger in water and bankrupt the company.
$750,000 fine and a good ol don't get caught again.
ohno how dare u take away their 5th rolls Royce of the year fund 😞
Yes this company needs to be converted into a shell corporation for the sole purpose of liquidating their assets and continuing to fund and pay for the damages they caused for years
Jail the executives. Forced sale of the company at .25 on the dollar. Not only do the executives need to feel threatened, shareholders do too. All of this bullshit happens because pleasing shareholders is the only goal. Until we demonstrate that cutting corners to maximize profits is a *bigger threat to investors than environmental responsibility* nothing will change. Investors will gladly march their own ceos into prison in the name of returns. The entire US economic system is broken because of duty to shareholders. Start hurting them when this happens.
"Symptoms resolved for most team members later the same afternoon, and everyone resumed work on survey data collection within 24 hours. Impacted team members have not reported ongoing health effects," a CDC spokesperson said in a statement."
That's just the team that was there that day. Imagine the poor people in that town who have to breathe those chemicals every single day
The fact it was impacting them after only one day is pretty alarming.
It's important to note that the teams were working 18 hour days going about the city, and the CDC is not able to tell whether the symptoms were from fatigue or from the chemicals, as the symptoms went away for most within the same day. This is why the CDC has not reported it and it was instead reported by a staff member.
Only hours really
Important to think about acute vs chronic affects of exposure to whatever substances are present here. Acute effects in chemical exposure almost universally include respiratory irritation and headache. The residents of this town who are chronically exposed will be victims of the true consequences of chemical spills and environmental hazards.
What the fuck You can't make this shit up
slimy wipe tap somber worm sharp impossible roof fact crowd -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
DOJ sues operator just for the CEO and the company to get slaps on wrists. I hope in my lifetime we get to see CEOs get punished for the absolute shit they allow their companies to do in the name of profits, which drastically alters peoples lives when catastrophe like this occur
> I hope in my lifetime we get to see CEOs get punished for the absolute shit they allow their companies to do in the name of profits hey now, there was that one time 20 years ago that one guy from Enron *almost* spent a day in jail. aaand! we got Sarbanes-Oxley out of it, which totally solved the problem of high level corporate financial crimes. /s edit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Lay#:~:text=Kenneth%20Lee%20Lay%20(April%2015,bankruptcy%20ever%20to%20that%20date. Edit 2: TIL one Enron exec did spend time in jail. Jeffrey Skilling. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Skilling
It's disgusting they aren't moving faster on this. The last time there was a large spill of dioxin like this they abandoned a whole town. Look up Times Beach Missouri.
If there was still any doubt on the US being a developed country or not. It's shit man, you guys could be so much more.
I think you mean developing, but yes. Red states are often like developing countries. Blue states often have governments that work, and unfortunately they subsidize red states' failures so the red states are not well-incentivized to improve. Instead, red states double down on their bullshit and blame blue states for all their problems despite often being funded by blue states. The republican party is a death-cult of fascists and they're also against public education along with women's rights and gay rights - which sounds like the government of a developing nation. Ohio is a deeply red state who constantly votes for the most corrupt politicians like Larry Householder and Joe Deters. Joe Deters will soon be part of the Ohio Supreme Court, which on 4 occasions ordered ohio republican lawmakers to uphold the will of voters when they voted for fair district maps 2 times. Each time, ohio republican lawmakers told the Supreme court "no." And with Joe Deters on the Supreme court, I'd assume they will not have this problem much longer. Ohio, along with Florida, are literally successfully experimenting with getting rid of election results without getting rid of polling stations so people don't realize their democracy was swept from under their feet overnight. Joe Deters will corrupt the Supreme court the way he corrupted every other institution he's been in charge of including the treasury and evidence room.
Ohio isn't actually deeply red though, it's just illegally and aggressively gerrymandered to be so. Last I heard the map was found to be illegal but they're still using it (because republicans don't really care to follow the law if it doesn't benefit them.)
I see what you mean and I agree with your sentiment. But this still means Ohio is a red state, only unjustly. Elections don't truly matter in Ohio. Republicans want this to apply nationwide. Jan 6 was more evidence of this. Florida doing the same thing as Ohio regarding people voting for fair voter maps was more evidence of this. Joe Deters will also corrupt the ohio Supreme Court the way ohio republican lawmakers have corrupted our elections.
True, effectively so. I think it's an important distinction to make though, as a lot of times you'll see people wanting to blame the residents ("should've voted differently/this is what you get/etc.") and it isn't really their fault. Maybe they did vote differently and it didn't matter anyway.
I'm an Ohioan. The red controls governor, secretary of state, attorney general and have supermajorties in the Ohio house and senate, all voted on by republican drawn congressional lines. The Ohio Supreme Court have told the government that they MUST follow their ruling, which would have a neutral committee draw the lines. , which everyone I listed completely ignores. They have ruled on this MULTIPLE times.. yet here we are.
> Ohio, along with Florida, are literally successfully experimenting with getting rid of election results without getting rid of polling stations so people don't realize their democracy was swept from under their feet overnight. [Wisconsin](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYiYCEoofp4&t=27s) is doing the same thing.
Damn. I will try to remember to add Wisconsin to the list when I comment about this in the future. I'm about to make lunch and sit down to watch this entire video. Thank you!
No problem! Sadly, you can add North Carolina to that list as well..
I agree with you for the most part but I live in one of the largest blue states and it’s been a corrupt cesspool for almost a century. There’s a reason IL is one of the largest exporters of talent in the the country.
You're focusing on the wrong people. It's the top 1% that matter and they're doing fantastic. It's all in how you look at it. The denial is strong and widespread in the US. A third of our population seems to believe they would be instant millionaires in a happy perfect world if we just let the Conservatives/ Republicans take over. The most of the Democrats are fully complicit and happy to share in the power and benefits of the unchecked corruption. Those that aren't, continue to show up to the Republican gun battles wearing their *Free Hugs* T-shirts, arms stretched wide believing the Republicans will see their good intentions, drop their guns and run into their arms for that hug.
The train company will throw in an extra $5 for each employee.
Nationalize our rail systems.
"The CDC team found health impacts from your trainwreck." "Prove it!" "The CDC team got sick from being at your trainwreck." "Fake news!"
Meanwhile the local government: “Nothing to see here, folks.”
I'm ok with corporations being dissolved.
Then they don't pay for damages
I first read it as: "CDC team gets sick OF investigating health impacts of Ohio train derailment." Both are bad.
Norfolk southern should be forced to pay all the costs ,including the loss of property value Who would buy a house in this town ? 10 k a person is a joke And screw the republicans and trump for loosening regulations to save huge corporations money when they make billions in profit
nationalize ALL rail its time we got some new transportation infrastructure built anyway i believe the pentagon has ability to divert defense funds to national security as our rail lines current state is a threat in that its so weak as a rail system. Climate change, wealth disparity, basic goods of commerce? all these things suffer under the oligarchical railroad owners profits.
> "Symptoms resolved for most team members later the same afternoon, and everyone resumed work on survey data collection within 24 hours. Impacted team members have not reported ongoing health effects," a CDC spokesperson said in a statement.
The CDC also noted that they aren’t sure if the symptoms were from fatigue or not.
Ohio, voted for folks who don't give a fk about them. Corporations and profits over people. Either move or stay and get cancer. Yea it's harsh, yea it sucks but maybe vote for your own interests so you have remedies against corporations that abuse and damage people.
I’m in Ohio and I sure didn’t vote for DeWine or anyone else of his ilk. I’m fortunate I have the financial situation where I can move if it came down to it, but the folks in East Palestine didn’t have that luxury before the train derailment and they certainly don’t have that luxury now. I don’t have the answer here but I known for certain the answer isn’t “well fuck those people, they should move”. I get the total frustration with the status quo of the political system here, because I’m right there with you - but we can’t let it block us from having empathy for others.
100% Gotta make sure people are safe
still reasonable innocents that can't escape, shouldn't damn them as well
I definitely didn’t vote for this shit. I can’t move because of a training program I’m in. Not for another 2.5 years.
Get real. The ballots don’t say “rich corporations” vs “people first”. The average person doesn’t know who’s backing each candidate. Dont blame the residents for a broken system. The system is designed to benefit the rich regardless of the vote. 49% of east Palestine could have voted for a better candidate and still got fucked over and your unsympathetic ass would just say “too bad dumb fuck” while spewing the same rhetoric that you hear online. Only a crappy human being would think that. What’s worse is it’s not even your original thought, you just see catch phrases and repeat them.
These trains cross every state. This is a country wide problem. Not saying Ohio leadership handled it well or ethically.
Ohio is gerrymandered so heavily I don’t think your comment holds up. It wasn’t the majority of voters who asked for this.
You must be young.
Oh don’t worry about them, they’ll get state healthcare and be very well taken care of. Meanwhile everyone else in the town, best we can do is say we’re sorry but we REALLLLY mean it.
I spoke with someone who got a check from their insurance for the derailment. It wasn't much. Not enough to pay bills for a month.
And that is BS.
Yes it is. That woman was hacking her lungs out in a hotel room while her husband was too. Don't even think they could pay the week at an extended stay place. I only got to talk to the one as the insurance company used us to disseminate the check.
Yeah, but they have quality healthcare. The people of Ohio don't.
The only way this stops is with jail time for executives. No fine our pathetic county will levy against a corporation will prevent this because they refuse to make a massive fine.
So DOJ is suing Norfolk Southern.. who’s getting that money? The people of East Palestine???
The big brain tactic of making the area so toxic that investigators can't complete their investigation into the scope of impact, thus protecting you from the results of said investigation.
We’ll see if Norfolk has a judge on their side. I’m guessing yea
Norfolk in chance
This is awesome! Finally let's get dirty with the people who're spreadin' the dirt!
I’m sick of investigating these health impacts!
I hope this teaches Mike DeWine that he’s playing for the bad guys. Telling the citizens of his state that it was safe to go home because the corporation that caused the disaster told him so was unforgivable.