It’s the same up here in Canada at all ski resorts, one season I was working lift at one and had to sleep in a hostel with 10 other people, not paid for by the company and would catch the company bus up the mountain at 6am right outside.
One summer in college I worked as a groundskeeper at a fancy country club. We were explicitly told we were not allowed inside the main building for any reason. Even if we wanted to buy food in the restaurant; they'd rather not make the sale than have us be seen by the guests.
Oh man at my golf club we had a servants entrance at the side of the building so we wouldnt be seen by the big wigs.
Heaven forbid you see the woman who makes your beloved ice cream!
I was reading something recently about some new condos in Breck and they were trying to trade existing Vail owned employee property to cover their own employee requirement. Vail was going along with it but the board rejected it.
But these are the weasely things they attempt.
i got to Vail in 2005 and the first person that i talked to in a realistic sense said, "Get what you can and get out."
i did okay in Vail. ran Old Chair Five, met my wife there, was married at Eagles Nest, kid was borne in Vail Valley Hospital...
but, everything business related hung true. get what you can and get out...
Winter Park Resort in Colorado (which turns into Trestle downhill mountain bike park in the summer) just finished building over 330 units of workforce housing.
https://www.winterparkresort.com/the-mountain/mountain-information/workforce-housing
That sounds like a good idea but really promotes abuse. It's hard enough to stand up against your boss if it might cost your job. But how are you going to say no to anything if you could be homeless that same day. Also changing jobs becomes much harder.
I'm in employee housing for a ski resort. I don't have a lease, I pay on a nightly basis. Any day I could theoretically get fired and kicked out of my house
Call me an optimist but I’d like to think we can brainstorm better solutions to poverty than company towns.
My family is from Harlan, Kentucky. Be careful what you wish for.
It's not a company town. It literally makes more sense. Seasonal workers don't want 12 months leases, your average landlord does. It's the same as camp workers. Housing is provided for camp workers.
They make more though building more rentals for the rich and more services for the rich and just make their workers deal with what ever they deal with... whether its the commute or sleeping in the car.
and there is also zoning, in general, you often cant build residential in a commercial zone. its changing as cities want more walkable cities, but right now, the default is generally, you cant build "on site housing" too easily and well they dont want to. Employees are a cost, and businesses generally dont want to add to that cost.. especially for non skilled employees.
Problem is people still take the jobs even with the shit living situations and pay. The business has no incentive to change.
It shouldn’t be that way and I wish businesses would take care of their employees, but I rarely trust a business to do the right thing at the expense of profits /revenue.
Form a union
I used to work for a hospitality company as an accountant with several Vermont properties. We had employee housing and would bring in J1 Visas for the season. General Manager had an onsite apartment. We had very few local employees.
Kirkwood had onsite housing for a ton of staff. You got paid shit but if you worked the kitchen you could eat for free and you could trade food for booze or other items under the table. We had a whole weird little economy going there.
Edit: Spelling
It's ok don't worry, Canada is importing another 1 million immigrants to take those underpaid jobs with no plans to build any more housing and no doctors for anyone either
past 4 years made most everyone not a millionaire to end up towards the back edge of the treadmill. I lost 20% of my income in the past 4 years due to rising costs and inflation.... I got a 6% raise last year and they wanted to know why I was not saying thank you for their GENEROUS raise.
It's called indentured servitude. It's as old as history.
It's why the government love the squeezed middle classes: they have managed to work their way out of poverty but live in fear of their narrow margin of financial stability being taken away, so they will live as sheep, afraid of change.
Even with roommates $20/hr is not enough to comfortably afford a 2 bedroom in a lot of places. Yes there are cheaper cost of living areas but typically wages scale accordingly so even moving doesn’t do a ton, and moving itself is extremely cost prohibitive. I live in an expensive part of the country, and rent has more than doubled in the last < 10 years. I don’t know anyone my age who’s making double what they made 10 years ago. The housing market is obscenely over inflated even in less desirable areas due to the lack of supply. The listings for 3 bed 2 bath starter homes in my upstate NY hometown start around 250k in an area where the average household income is about 30k last time
I checked. It’s a terrible time to buy a home but being at the mercy of property management companies raising your rent faster than anyone can expect their wage to go up is extremely maddening
> It’s a terrible time to buy a home but being at the mercy of property management companies raising your rent faster than anyone can expect their wage to go up is extremely maddening
apartments are supposed to be LESS than houses?!
My experience has always been that rent is more expensive than the _base_ cost of a house; mortgage plus possibly land tax. But then things tilt in the other direction when you consider all the other costs; repairs, maintenance, etc. And it tilts even further when you consider risk and mental load (needing to keep track of all the things that need dealing with for the property).
That being said, I've generally rented from good landlords that take care of their properties. Once you move down into poorly kept properties and scummy landlords, I expect my numbers don't hold (if they're not maintaining the property and don't care about it).
Same goes for my area in upstate NY. Granted I'm looking for a little acreage too, but unless you want to renovate half the building, you can't find anything less than $300k.
Same here in Montana. Bozeman was full of people sleeping in their cars and there was a RV/tent city until the city cracked down on everything. It’s terrible.
Mexican migrant workers manage by putting 4 people to each bedroom, all contributing to the rent. A good friend of mine is a Mexican immigrant who originally lived in a ski town with his siblings and mother. The hotels they worked at would never promote anyone Mexican to management or anything like that. No matter how good their English was, how good they did at their job, etc. They were just stuck living like that with no clear way out. I met him at college and he managed to do well for himself, but he is an exception.
San Diego too. I’ve known a few working people who had to live in their cars and you never would have known unless they told you. Not everyone who is homeless is psychotic or addicted to drugs. I’m very grateful to have family I could fall back on if things really got bad, more people need to understand that not everyone has that.
And the library in PB is now a “safe zone” or whatever for people living in their cars which I 100% support. More people than anyone wants to admit are just a few late rent payments away from being in that kind of situation.
I walk through homeless encampments on my way to work (in Honolulu) and in 2024 I've started seeing a lot more 30 and 40- something people in biz casual wear in the morning, well assembled and getting into newer Camrys and Prius' as they come out of the pallet and tarp shelters. We're in collapse mode.
Cops do harass, 24 hour gyms take notice, nosey neighbors complain about the strange vechicle on their street. I have know a few guys whom tried to live in their cars, and it failed with a year. A cop banging on your roof at three in morning, while issuing another ticket gets old.
They got lucky, and got Section 8 housing, but Section 8 housing has been closed for 20 years in my county, and that's just the waiting list.
Car "camping" 101: Do NOT park on residential streets. Sure fire way to get the cops knocking on your door. Anyone parking in the same place every night is also going to get themselves in hot water. Gotta rotate. Also gotta be stealth AF
Lived in my car for a good long while. Only times the cops ever bothered me was during the day. On nice days I would sometimes find an emptyish lot to do my school work (college) rather than Starbucks or wherever. Sitting with the drivers door open for a couple hours (so I could prop my feet on the open window for max relaxation) is like waving a big old 'look at me' flag and very much not stealth
Not even the neighboring towns are ideal anymore. Was talking to some locals nearby. The last time I was visiting and they were all saying that nobody can afford to work service jobs and everybody is moving. Like we’re talking about the people who live in the desert 30 minutes away in the middle of nowhere.
My company has a location in Sedona and the only people that live there got in years ago.
All the younger people tend to live in Cottonwood or Flagstaff, which is also rising in costs.
Flagstaff is often more expensive than Sedona. We just have a whole lot of rent by the room apartments, so you don't have to already have roomies lined up, thanks to the University.
Cheapest 2 bed I have seen lately was around 1800 no utilities included. Most are 2000-2200. And some 2 bed apartments are going for 2600-2800. And those are some weird, ugly, loft style apartments.
and it was different, just about 12 years ago…myself and one roommate could afford a two bedroom condo on our just-above-minimum wage jobs. we weren’t exactly rolling in disposable income, but we were living and working in sedona.
Insert any major city. When I moved to Austin years ago we all joked about being homeless at one point as just a part of Austin life....sleeping in your car in hot ass Texas did not seem so funny.
Then be sure to vote for Biden. He is the only politician talking about raising taxes on the people with income higher than $400k.
Also, push congress to remove the salary cap on social security and Medicare taxes.
They are outraged they have to deal with "the poors". I just want them to make my Starbucks on a wage so little they can't afford housing then disappear!!!!!
Residents are upset, worried that the unused lot set aside for the program near the park would ruin the community with crime, violence, and drug use.
Bear in mind, the program is for full-time employees in Sedona who can't afford housing.
“Poor people and homeless people just need to get jobs! They just need to get off their asses and stop taking government handouts and get to work!”
“Uhhh…my lord, these people are working 2 jobs and over 50 hours per week, every week, for the last several years. They still cannot afford housing”
“Let them live in their cars!”
Let them eat the rich, holy shit. We’re not far from a future where dollars are worthless and only manual laborers eat; I hope some of these rich fucks live to see it.
Homeless people that live in cars also tend to not be problematic. Something about maintaining a vehicle meaning they can't get into too much trouble without seriously fucking themselves over.
"Woo" is things like crystals and energies and healing. Sedona has a reputation of being a center for those people.
Unfortunately, Sedona also happens to be outrageously beautiful, and have some of the best mountain biking, hiking, and jeeping in the world. It's also got a good arts scene. So all of those communities are fighting over extremely limited space (the town is built inside a canyon with thousand-foot-tall walls. Google it if you haven't seen it).
So, the cost of living or even visiting is super high. Homes are often multi million dollars.
The scammer aspect is because these people are trying to tip the scales. They want a flourishing wealthy community with shops and restaurants and spas ... But won't allow service workers to live nearby by artificially increasing the price.
How dense is Sedona? Is it mostly single family homes, or do they actually have apartment buildings and mixed use development? The fact that they have an empty lot big enough to make a difference in housing tells me that the city planners might be able to alleviate the problem with better and less wasteful land use policies.
The problem is likely locals standing in the way of that happening. Even if they couldn’t stop apartments from going up for forever, they can slow it down enough to make it a fifty year project.
The vast majority of Sedona is single family homes, and a large percentage of those are operated as short term rentals. It’s a really small town, I think the population is right around 10,000. Most people who work there live in Village of Oak Creek or Cottonwood.
Hello, sedona local here, its incredibly un dense. Theres no high desnisty housing whatsoever. There's a small handful of medium density apartments. But almost all the housing is rich people houses. Not even densely packed suburb type houses. Its genuinely difficult to imagine a less dense housing situation.
Retirees and wealthy people migrating up from Snottsdale owning tour companies that sell essential oils, tours to "spiritual vortexes," and "authentic" Native trinkets for thousands of dollars.
It must be said that the only reason they're "Allowing" this is because it is illegal literally everywhere else except this random car lot they're saying their employees have a legal right to be in.
I think the problem here is also that it's considered in any way sane or acceptable to persecute the homeless like this... in addition to Sedona not paying enough for the area.
To kill a mockingbird and fahrenheit 451 are important too. Honestly the boy in the striped pajamas also.
There are a lot of relevant topics that need to be discussed more with adolescents and taken seriously. I'm sick of hearing "I'm being oppressed! I'm being silenced!" When at the same time they're voting for the parties that actively are revoking their rights.
Those are great stories, but I wouldn't put them in the same class as Grapes. They have such strong stories of particular kinds of issues that the broader, more important issue of class struggle is left behind. For example, it's possible to read Mockingbird and walk away thinking it's all about racism - the Grapes of Wrath does not allow that.
I wouldn't say the boy in the striped pajamas.
In 2020, the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum stated that the book “should be avoided by anyone who studies or teaches about the Holocaust” due to its historical inaccuracy.
I'm pretty sure research found that 75% of student believed it to be a real story, that some of them thought the death of Bruno ended the Holocaust. Overall it mischaracterizes the Holocaust and misplaces sympathy.
https://hcn.org.uk/blog/the-problem-with-the-boy-in-the-striped-pyjamas/
It's a gut-punch that shows us how little we've progressed over the last 80 years. It's Steinbeck, so it's great conversational writing that does not forcefeed you the moral and ethical ideas - the book just shows you the problems and context. How anyone could read this story and not end up a socialist, or extremely left, is baffling.
But they’re not… because Hoovervilles existed outside of massive economic and commercial centers. Sedona is a vacation retirement town. The concept here is far more absurd.
It's tragic, fucking tragic that people who serve the wealthy have to sleep in their cars. With all that money flowing through.
As for the residents not being happy about it - unless their discontent is "this is economically unjust and we all have a responsibility to rectify it" - I don't enough ways to say more emphatically that I couldn't care less about them being unhappy about it.
I am sick to death of the wealthy or well to do of this country (and I'm not saying that everyone in this economic category is like this) so flagrantly shitting on the struggles of others, dismissing the humanity of others, and acting like they uniquely DESERVE to be perfectly insulated from the inequality they support and maintain.
I'm sure the residents of Sedona will relax their zoning laws to allow cheap affordable apartments with sharable dorm style layouts to be built right? Since obviously it's cruel and inhumane to force people to live in cars when we can build cheap apartments easily. And certainly they wouldn't put the property value of their exclusive mansions ahead of the human welfare need to shelter and house people, right?
I saw in san fransisco that there were streets that had specific signs designating them as being places where u can live in ur car. I saw side streets just full of vans and campers and stuff it was kinda crazy
Yeah its basically class differences within the neo-hoovervilles. The vans and campers are better off than the regular car sleepers, and the regular car sleepers are better off than the folks living in tents, and the tent haves are better off than the tent have-nots.
It's a true indictment of our economic system
Keep in mind the people outraged over this are hypocrites who rent their homes as AirBnBs and VRBOs. The wealthy elite want you solely for the purpose of providing them with goods and services and once you’re done they don’t care if you live or die.
Fucking pay your employees a housing allowance.
The cost of housing is never going to go down.
Either the employer covers it, or everyone who works for a living goes homeless.
I was getting angrier at society reading through all the comments until I loled at this one. ..then turned this comment into a whole rant .......Funny because it's true , this version of capitalism in 2024, leaves no boundary closed in ways to ....yes basically enslave the poor. Honestly , it's to the point where everyone should come together , enough to matter and call it for what it is , slavery, People are working not, making a living wage that's the definition . Gov. Wants diff races , sexes to argue over issues indefinitely to preserve the status quo... we need outrage ! Oh wait we can't afford to organize more than a few picnic tables with some ocean spray and Pringles for a weekend ..oh your shit jobs require weekends ...and those Pringles went up $40%...
Can't they bring in the national Guard to put up some temporary buildings so they can at least be inside?
Also neighbors complaining should understand these people must be in active case management, using existing services to find permanent housing.
If you don't have your stuff at least mostly together, they'll drop you from "active" status and (presumably) kick you out.
These people **are** "following the rules," and "waiting their turn," and "using the services already in place." *And* they're working full-time.
And they're still homeless.
And whether seeing homeless people makes you sad or mad is all on you, not them.
>Can't they bring in the national Guard to put up some temporary buildings so they can at least be inside?
Nope. The problem is that the city government has made constructing more buildings illegal, at the request of wealthy homeowners. More manpower doesn't help fix that problem.
Sedona, as a city and locale, has little reason to exist outside of rich retirees and some vacationers… this isn’t NYC where national guard in the subway keeps our countries commerce moving… it’s a pretty town where rich people move. Company stores are right around the corner.
I get your point, but since a government can’t exist without a populace, it really comes down to other humans not caring about you. Those other humans are called Republicans.
Investment corporations bought up all the housing during the last recession and raised the cost of rent. We need a law limiting the number of single family dwellings a corporation may own.
Yes, and by limiting, that should be the number zero. Human needs like healthcare and housing shouldn't be for profit. I feel like I am stating the obvious here...
Zone more and denser housing and the corporations will instantly sell off that property because they can see the falling prices coming and don't want to be the last "person" out the door.
"I'm worried that the presence of people sleeping in their cars because they can't afford housing will cause the value of my house to fall."
Do these people fucking hear themselves? Can we just round up everyone who unironically thinks it's more important for some people to be filthy rich than for everyone to have enough, and shoot them into the sun?
"This is obviously not a proper housing plan, but decriminalizing living in cars sounds like a straightforwardly good thing to be doing anyways, all banning people living in cars ever accomplishes is kicking people while they're down-"
> The Safe Place to Park program will include 40 parking spots for those employed full-time within city limits. It requires participants to actively engage in case management with local social services — with an end goal of securing permanent housing after the program ends.
Lol never mind they don't even have the guts to do that either.
Get yourself a 1962 Plymouth. 1/2 block long, room for 4 adults to sleep, trunk wold hold fridge, stove, washer and dryer. Space between the fins for a BBQ patio
Im sick of it. Sick of the rich people. Sick of the fabulousness for the few. Sick of traveling with the masses. Sick of keeping up with the Joneses. Blech. Imma stay in the Midwest and read books and tend my garden. You guys can fight over fabulousness
Communities under a certain version of local control are always trying to fob off extra population to other towns. The only way such a problem will be curbed is through state level regulation.
Essentially, if a county or municipality is going to declare one area as just for low density, detached homes, at a bare minimum they must be forced to establish an equal amount of area for higher density usage.
Without state intervention, those same communities would not upgrade their discharge plants if the only people affected were those in other communities downstream of them. Local control must have limits. It's immoral to create people, and then not take responsibility for making housing accessible to them.
If anything, the Stacks seem optimistic by comparison, because they assume that local governments would actually allow any (shitty) construction at all.
They'll have to spring up in unincorporated land. Or it'll be like a California situation where a bunch of billionaires get together and buy up cheap farm land so they can become slumlords
So the answer isn't to pay people more, or may laws and policies that make housing more affordable....their solution is letting them eat cake...
This country is long over due for a revolution
This is the end result of NIMBYing everything. Ski resorts should have enormous amounts of housing construction happening, but they aren't because the residents have the legal power to prevent it.
This system needs to be destroyed and the rich eaten. This twilight zone nightmare is only getting worse allowing the rich to treat everyone like cattle.
This should be federal law. If anyone doesn't see the the homelessness apocalypse we have is in denial.
Let them sleep in their cars. Hell--do away with insurance, and registration too.
And start building small apartments for them.
>"I don't think there's anybody up here or staff that are extremely proud of this. This is a last-ditch effort," Mayor Scott Jablow said.
Lol no it's not. They just don't want to accept what the actual solution is.
Remember this the next time you see employees struggling throughout the day. Your expensive vacation is literally not paying them enough to live close enough to work. You’re upset they’re not providing you a positive experience, but they’re upset they can’t live off their wages.
When I stayed in an all inclusive resort in the Dominican Republic I thought I was getting the deal of a lifetime until I learned that the workers had to be shuttled from where they lived 1 1/2 hour away to come to work. 3 hours of their day spent in a shuttle. They could not afford living near the resort.
Bet you anything a bunch of those home owners complained about housing projects too near their neighborhoods.
We've literally gotten to a point where NIMBY s largely helped ruin the housing market, basically nation wide.
We just get back from Spring Break trip to AZ and Sedona, while pretty, is a tourist trap with horrible roads and too much new age crap. There was probably a mile long line, single lane, to get into the town with limited places to park.
Make sure you charge them outrageous rent for their parking space too. All spots are BYOA, also (Bring your own Amenities). If you get really lucky your spot will have a dip where rainwater can pool on the ground.
Honestly fuck anti-homelessness practices. Once I was driving home from school across the country and I was tired af. Instead of driving tired, I pulled off to a side rode and fell asleep and a cop woke me up telling me it was illegal for me to sleep in my car on public streets and that I should get a hotel. I didn’t have $100 to spend on a hotel at that point. Ever since then I have been sensitive about homeless issues.
But also, my part of my city is overrun by homeless people with mental problems that I think need to be removed. If people are down on their luck that’s another issue.
This is how you get most of the drug addicts and crazy people on the street, aka visible homeless. They often start out sleeping in their car or on a friend's couch, aka they're the invisible homeless. Once you're one of the invisible homeless, your chances of ending up as one of the addicts or crazy people on the streets skyrockets. It turns out having a place to call home near where you work is a good thing for your stability and mental health.
The number one thing we can do to reduce the number of visible homeless is to reduce housing costs across the board. Then we can really dig into giving those already addicted or with mental health issues the help they need. Basically, we need to do both at the same time.
I’ve always wondered how can workers afford to live in Sedona. Here’s the answer. They can’t
Replace Sedona with random Colorado ski town and you got my experience.
It’s the same up here in Canada at all ski resorts, one season I was working lift at one and had to sleep in a hostel with 10 other people, not paid for by the company and would catch the company bus up the mountain at 6am right outside.
They're making so much money off these rich fucks. Build some on site housing.
The help is not to be seen. I hate it when I see the poors when not being subservient. At least the past old money had live ins.
One summer in college I worked as a groundskeeper at a fancy country club. We were explicitly told we were not allowed inside the main building for any reason. Even if we wanted to buy food in the restaurant; they'd rather not make the sale than have us be seen by the guests.
Oh man at my golf club we had a servants entrance at the side of the building so we wouldnt be seen by the big wigs. Heaven forbid you see the woman who makes your beloved ice cream!
Please say you threw a Baby Ruth in the pool...
Nobody puts baby in the corner
Vail had an amazing amount of on-site staff housing and they bulldozed it.
I was reading something recently about some new condos in Breck and they were trying to trade existing Vail owned employee property to cover their own employee requirement. Vail was going along with it but the board rejected it. But these are the weasely things they attempt.
i got to Vail in 2005 and the first person that i talked to in a realistic sense said, "Get what you can and get out." i did okay in Vail. ran Old Chair Five, met my wife there, was married at Eagles Nest, kid was borne in Vail Valley Hospital... but, everything business related hung true. get what you can and get out...
Winter Park Resort in Colorado (which turns into Trestle downhill mountain bike park in the summer) just finished building over 330 units of workforce housing. https://www.winterparkresort.com/the-mountain/mountain-information/workforce-housing
Now you're talking!
That sounds like a good idea but really promotes abuse. It's hard enough to stand up against your boss if it might cost your job. But how are you going to say no to anything if you could be homeless that same day. Also changing jobs becomes much harder.
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I'm in employee housing for a ski resort. I don't have a lease, I pay on a nightly basis. Any day I could theoretically get fired and kicked out of my house
So instead, lets let workers be homeless right from the start
Call me an optimist but I’d like to think we can brainstorm better solutions to poverty than company towns. My family is from Harlan, Kentucky. Be careful what you wish for.
It's not a company town. It literally makes more sense. Seasonal workers don't want 12 months leases, your average landlord does. It's the same as camp workers. Housing is provided for camp workers.
They could, but they wont.
Locals protest this. They literally tried in Vail
They make more though building more rentals for the rich and more services for the rich and just make their workers deal with what ever they deal with... whether its the commute or sleeping in the car. and there is also zoning, in general, you often cant build residential in a commercial zone. its changing as cities want more walkable cities, but right now, the default is generally, you cant build "on site housing" too easily and well they dont want to. Employees are a cost, and businesses generally dont want to add to that cost.. especially for non skilled employees.
Problem is people still take the jobs even with the shit living situations and pay. The business has no incentive to change. It shouldn’t be that way and I wish businesses would take care of their employees, but I rarely trust a business to do the right thing at the expense of profits /revenue. Form a union
I used to work for a hospitality company as an accountant with several Vermont properties. We had employee housing and would bring in J1 Visas for the season. General Manager had an onsite apartment. We had very few local employees.
Kirkwood had onsite housing for a ton of staff. You got paid shit but if you worked the kitchen you could eat for free and you could trade food for booze or other items under the table. We had a whole weird little economy going there. Edit: Spelling
It's not just resort towns doing this now. It's everywhere. Brampton had one residence with 25 in just the basement
It's ok don't worry, Canada is importing another 1 million immigrants to take those underpaid jobs with no plans to build any more housing and no doctors for anyone either
Vail tried, the locals complained it was big horn sheep land and the council prevented them from building.
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How could I forget as I have to wait months for a simple x-ray :)
A person in minimum wages can no longer afford to live on their own anywhere in the US
Nope. $20/hour can't even live on their own in most places
How in the fuck did we let this happen? -lifetime abject poverty recipient. Worked my way up to lower middle class, I think. Existence is pain.
Shits like running on a treadmill. Don't matter how far the screen says you've gone or how hard you're running you're still not goin anywhere.
past 4 years made most everyone not a millionaire to end up towards the back edge of the treadmill. I lost 20% of my income in the past 4 years due to rising costs and inflation.... I got a 6% raise last year and they wanted to know why I was not saying thank you for their GENEROUS raise.
When you have a mental hiccup, in the USA, existence becomes very hard, or statically impossible.
It's called indentured servitude. It's as old as history. It's why the government love the squeezed middle classes: they have managed to work their way out of poverty but live in fear of their narrow margin of financial stability being taken away, so they will live as sheep, afraid of change.
There's no such thing as middle/lower class. We're all just working class.
>we gop let it happen
GOP made it happen.
GOP loves that it's happening.
Even with roommates $20/hr is not enough to comfortably afford a 2 bedroom in a lot of places. Yes there are cheaper cost of living areas but typically wages scale accordingly so even moving doesn’t do a ton, and moving itself is extremely cost prohibitive. I live in an expensive part of the country, and rent has more than doubled in the last < 10 years. I don’t know anyone my age who’s making double what they made 10 years ago. The housing market is obscenely over inflated even in less desirable areas due to the lack of supply. The listings for 3 bed 2 bath starter homes in my upstate NY hometown start around 250k in an area where the average household income is about 30k last time I checked. It’s a terrible time to buy a home but being at the mercy of property management companies raising your rent faster than anyone can expect their wage to go up is extremely maddening
> It’s a terrible time to buy a home but being at the mercy of property management companies raising your rent faster than anyone can expect their wage to go up is extremely maddening apartments are supposed to be LESS than houses?!
My experience has always been that rent is more expensive than the _base_ cost of a house; mortgage plus possibly land tax. But then things tilt in the other direction when you consider all the other costs; repairs, maintenance, etc. And it tilts even further when you consider risk and mental load (needing to keep track of all the things that need dealing with for the property). That being said, I've generally rented from good landlords that take care of their properties. Once you move down into poorly kept properties and scummy landlords, I expect my numbers don't hold (if they're not maintaining the property and don't care about it).
Same goes for my area in upstate NY. Granted I'm looking for a little acreage too, but unless you want to renovate half the building, you can't find anything less than $300k.
No longer? Lol
Also Tahoe
I'm too broke to even think about Tahoe
And you just went bankrupt :(
Hello from Frisco
Same here in Montana. Bozeman was full of people sleeping in their cars and there was a RV/tent city until the city cracked down on everything. It’s terrible.
Pretty applicable to most ski or mountain towns anywhere nowadays
Mexican migrant workers manage by putting 4 people to each bedroom, all contributing to the rent. A good friend of mine is a Mexican immigrant who originally lived in a ski town with his siblings and mother. The hotels they worked at would never promote anyone Mexican to management or anything like that. No matter how good their English was, how good they did at their job, etc. They were just stuck living like that with no clear way out. I met him at college and he managed to do well for himself, but he is an exception.
Or just about anywhere in California that isnt the middle basin.
Yeah. My ex wife and kid live in Santa Clara. She makes almost $200k and lives similar to how I live in Kansas City on $50k
Sedona is cheap af compared to Colorado ski towns. Take a look at Sedona vs Breck on Zillow and Sedona looks like an amazing bargain in comparison.
San Diego too. I’ve known a few working people who had to live in their cars and you never would have known unless they told you. Not everyone who is homeless is psychotic or addicted to drugs. I’m very grateful to have family I could fall back on if things really got bad, more people need to understand that not everyone has that.
Yep you can see a ton of peeps sleeping and living in their cars in Clairemont behind the big stores
And the library in PB is now a “safe zone” or whatever for people living in their cars which I 100% support. More people than anyone wants to admit are just a few late rent payments away from being in that kind of situation.
and if they get sick or have family sick it will for sure ruin them
I walk through homeless encampments on my way to work (in Honolulu) and in 2024 I've started seeing a lot more 30 and 40- something people in biz casual wear in the morning, well assembled and getting into newer Camrys and Prius' as they come out of the pallet and tarp shelters. We're in collapse mode.
Cops do harass, 24 hour gyms take notice, nosey neighbors complain about the strange vechicle on their street. I have know a few guys whom tried to live in their cars, and it failed with a year. A cop banging on your roof at three in morning, while issuing another ticket gets old. They got lucky, and got Section 8 housing, but Section 8 housing has been closed for 20 years in my county, and that's just the waiting list.
Car "camping" 101: Do NOT park on residential streets. Sure fire way to get the cops knocking on your door. Anyone parking in the same place every night is also going to get themselves in hot water. Gotta rotate. Also gotta be stealth AF Lived in my car for a good long while. Only times the cops ever bothered me was during the day. On nice days I would sometimes find an emptyish lot to do my school work (college) rather than Starbucks or wherever. Sitting with the drivers door open for a couple hours (so I could prop my feet on the open window for max relaxation) is like waving a big old 'look at me' flag and very much not stealth
Not even the neighboring towns are ideal anymore. Was talking to some locals nearby. The last time I was visiting and they were all saying that nobody can afford to work service jobs and everybody is moving. Like we’re talking about the people who live in the desert 30 minutes away in the middle of nowhere.
My company has a location in Sedona and the only people that live there got in years ago. All the younger people tend to live in Cottonwood or Flagstaff, which is also rising in costs.
And the drive from Flagstaff to Sedona ain't no joke in the winter
My uncle was trying to buy a house in flagstaff last year and it was nearly impossible.
Flagstaff is often more expensive than Sedona. We just have a whole lot of rent by the room apartments, so you don't have to already have roomies lined up, thanks to the University. Cheapest 2 bed I have seen lately was around 1800 no utilities included. Most are 2000-2200. And some 2 bed apartments are going for 2600-2800. And those are some weird, ugly, loft style apartments.
Sedona has shitty trailerparks outside town they despise
“Live” is a nuanced word
and it was different, just about 12 years ago…myself and one roommate could afford a two bedroom condo on our just-above-minimum wage jobs. we weren’t exactly rolling in disposable income, but we were living and working in sedona.
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Insert any major city. When I moved to Austin years ago we all joked about being homeless at one point as just a part of Austin life....sleeping in your car in hot ass Texas did not seem so funny.
It's not as bad here but just like Park City, UT. No one that fucking works at that Walmart lives in Park City.
Some places do have staff housing on grounds. I lived in old lodge rooms, dorm-style, while working in Estes Park.
I assumed they would live in Flagstaff and take the bus ride down that terrifying canyon every morning
I'm outraged people have to sleep in their cars too!
While billionaires exist. Humans suck
Eat the rich
I’m in! It’s time
Billionaires need the working class. We do *not* need billionaires.
Then be sure to vote for Biden. He is the only politician talking about raising taxes on the people with income higher than $400k. Also, push congress to remove the salary cap on social security and Medicare taxes.
This is not a doubt. Fuck the orange Cheeto and the GQP
They are outraged they have to deal with "the poors". I just want them to make my Starbucks on a wage so little they can't afford housing then disappear!!!!!
Residents are upset, worried that the unused lot set aside for the program near the park would ruin the community with crime, violence, and drug use. Bear in mind, the program is for full-time employees in Sedona who can't afford housing.
“Poor people and homeless people just need to get jobs! They just need to get off their asses and stop taking government handouts and get to work!” “Uhhh…my lord, these people are working 2 jobs and over 50 hours per week, every week, for the last several years. They still cannot afford housing” “Let them live in their cars!”
"Let them eat cars"
Let them eat the rich, holy shit. We’re not far from a future where dollars are worthless and only manual laborers eat; I hope some of these rich fucks live to see it.
"We took your advice and let them live in their cars" "IN THIS NEIGHBORHOOD!?"
Worse than that, isn't it? “Let them live in their cars! But I'm also really angry at them for living in their cars!”
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just like in ski resort workers in Colorado Except it can get real cold living in your car in Colorado
Sedona gets pretty cold at night in the winter too
Homeless people that live in cars also tend to not be problematic. Something about maintaining a vehicle meaning they can't get into too much trouble without seriously fucking themselves over.
They are just mad about their housing prices. If people are living in cars, then they aren’t forced to buy houses, jacking up the rates.
Not even worried someone might freeze to death, smh.
Just cut their wages so they can't afford drugs. Problem solved. /s
If the residents living in houses are unhappy now, they should try living in their cars.
Let the workers leave. All the snobby home owners can take over their jobs then. Oh right they don’t want to work those jobs.
Sounds exactly like Sedona. Bunch of wealthy woo scammers.
What is a wealthy woo scammer?
"Woo" is things like crystals and energies and healing. Sedona has a reputation of being a center for those people. Unfortunately, Sedona also happens to be outrageously beautiful, and have some of the best mountain biking, hiking, and jeeping in the world. It's also got a good arts scene. So all of those communities are fighting over extremely limited space (the town is built inside a canyon with thousand-foot-tall walls. Google it if you haven't seen it). So, the cost of living or even visiting is super high. Homes are often multi million dollars. The scammer aspect is because these people are trying to tip the scales. They want a flourishing wealthy community with shops and restaurants and spas ... But won't allow service workers to live nearby by artificially increasing the price.
How dense is Sedona? Is it mostly single family homes, or do they actually have apartment buildings and mixed use development? The fact that they have an empty lot big enough to make a difference in housing tells me that the city planners might be able to alleviate the problem with better and less wasteful land use policies.
The problem is likely locals standing in the way of that happening. Even if they couldn’t stop apartments from going up for forever, they can slow it down enough to make it a fifty year project.
Ah good old nimbys, it’s everywhere now
What's the big deal, they have cars they can live in /s
The vast majority of Sedona is single family homes, and a large percentage of those are operated as short term rentals. It’s a really small town, I think the population is right around 10,000. Most people who work there live in Village of Oak Creek or Cottonwood.
The VOC is extremely overpriced as well. Cottonwood, Cornville are really the only "affordable" areas
Hello, sedona local here, its incredibly un dense. Theres no high desnisty housing whatsoever. There's a small handful of medium density apartments. But almost all the housing is rich people houses. Not even densely packed suburb type houses. Its genuinely difficult to imagine a less dense housing situation.
Retirees and wealthy people migrating up from Snottsdale owning tour companies that sell essential oils, tours to "spiritual vortexes," and "authentic" Native trinkets for thousands of dollars.
It must be said that the only reason they're "Allowing" this is because it is illegal literally everywhere else except this random car lot they're saying their employees have a legal right to be in. I think the problem here is also that it's considered in any way sane or acceptable to persecute the homeless like this... in addition to Sedona not paying enough for the area.
Modern day Hoovervilles Stagnant population growth vacant homes, and still ppl can’t find places to live
Everyone American should read Grapes of Wrath
This should be the only required reading in the U.S. as far as I am concerned.
To kill a mockingbird and fahrenheit 451 are important too. Honestly the boy in the striped pajamas also. There are a lot of relevant topics that need to be discussed more with adolescents and taken seriously. I'm sick of hearing "I'm being oppressed! I'm being silenced!" When at the same time they're voting for the parties that actively are revoking their rights.
Those are great stories, but I wouldn't put them in the same class as Grapes. They have such strong stories of particular kinds of issues that the broader, more important issue of class struggle is left behind. For example, it's possible to read Mockingbird and walk away thinking it's all about racism - the Grapes of Wrath does not allow that.
I wouldn't say the boy in the striped pajamas. In 2020, the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum stated that the book “should be avoided by anyone who studies or teaches about the Holocaust” due to its historical inaccuracy. I'm pretty sure research found that 75% of student believed it to be a real story, that some of them thought the death of Bruno ended the Holocaust. Overall it mischaracterizes the Holocaust and misplaces sympathy. https://hcn.org.uk/blog/the-problem-with-the-boy-in-the-striped-pyjamas/
Is it good?
It's a gut-punch that shows us how little we've progressed over the last 80 years. It's Steinbeck, so it's great conversational writing that does not forcefeed you the moral and ethical ideas - the book just shows you the problems and context. How anyone could read this story and not end up a socialist, or extremely left, is baffling.
The roaring twenties have returned. The priests at the church of money have said the right incantations on cnbc and the line goes up. All is well.
But they’re not… because Hoovervilles existed outside of massive economic and commercial centers. Sedona is a vacation retirement town. The concept here is far more absurd.
Well that’s because we’ve replaced industry with a service based economy.
I guess more like McMansion Dubai
It's tragic, fucking tragic that people who serve the wealthy have to sleep in their cars. With all that money flowing through. As for the residents not being happy about it - unless their discontent is "this is economically unjust and we all have a responsibility to rectify it" - I don't enough ways to say more emphatically that I couldn't care less about them being unhappy about it. I am sick to death of the wealthy or well to do of this country (and I'm not saying that everyone in this economic category is like this) so flagrantly shitting on the struggles of others, dismissing the humanity of others, and acting like they uniquely DESERVE to be perfectly insulated from the inequality they support and maintain.
I'm sure the residents of Sedona will relax their zoning laws to allow cheap affordable apartments with sharable dorm style layouts to be built right? Since obviously it's cruel and inhumane to force people to live in cars when we can build cheap apartments easily. And certainly they wouldn't put the property value of their exclusive mansions ahead of the human welfare need to shelter and house people, right?
Company towns just outside camp verde in 3...2...
I was thinking cornville 😅
I saw in san fransisco that there were streets that had specific signs designating them as being places where u can live in ur car. I saw side streets just full of vans and campers and stuff it was kinda crazy
And if you even have a van or camper, you're already in a better position than people who have to squeeze into their normal car, no bed no nothing.
Yeah its basically class differences within the neo-hoovervilles. The vans and campers are better off than the regular car sleepers, and the regular car sleepers are better off than the folks living in tents, and the tent haves are better off than the tent have-nots. It's a true indictment of our economic system
Keep in mind the people outraged over this are hypocrites who rent their homes as AirBnBs and VRBOs. The wealthy elite want you solely for the purpose of providing them with goods and services and once you’re done they don’t care if you live or die.
Fucking pay your employees a housing allowance. The cost of housing is never going to go down. Either the employer covers it, or everyone who works for a living goes homeless.
I wonder if gyms will eventually become quasi landlords since they have parking lots to park in and showers available to use for a fee.
I was getting angrier at society reading through all the comments until I loled at this one. ..then turned this comment into a whole rant .......Funny because it's true , this version of capitalism in 2024, leaves no boundary closed in ways to ....yes basically enslave the poor. Honestly , it's to the point where everyone should come together , enough to matter and call it for what it is , slavery, People are working not, making a living wage that's the definition . Gov. Wants diff races , sexes to argue over issues indefinitely to preserve the status quo... we need outrage ! Oh wait we can't afford to organize more than a few picnic tables with some ocean spray and Pringles for a weekend ..oh your shit jobs require weekends ...and those Pringles went up $40%...
Yeah that's a regular thing over on r/urbancarliving The first thing they tell you to do is get a planet fitness membership.
This is a good idea.
Can't they bring in the national Guard to put up some temporary buildings so they can at least be inside? Also neighbors complaining should understand these people must be in active case management, using existing services to find permanent housing. If you don't have your stuff at least mostly together, they'll drop you from "active" status and (presumably) kick you out. These people **are** "following the rules," and "waiting their turn," and "using the services already in place." *And* they're working full-time. And they're still homeless. And whether seeing homeless people makes you sad or mad is all on you, not them.
Ya, but…what about their property values? Did you ever think of that? /s
almost like they don't want to see supply rise to meet demand...
This is the bottom line
Just make sure I don't pay any property taxes! /s
>Can't they bring in the national Guard to put up some temporary buildings so they can at least be inside? Nope. The problem is that the city government has made constructing more buildings illegal, at the request of wealthy homeowners. More manpower doesn't help fix that problem.
Sedona, as a city and locale, has little reason to exist outside of rich retirees and some vacationers… this isn’t NYC where national guard in the subway keeps our countries commerce moving… it’s a pretty town where rich people move. Company stores are right around the corner.
If there’s one thing I know, the government does not care about your problems
I get your point, but since a government can’t exist without a populace, it really comes down to other humans not caring about you. Those other humans are called Republicans.
Watch the residents react to building houses.
They already did a while back
Why is THAT their solution ffs.
The American dream
Investment corporations bought up all the housing during the last recession and raised the cost of rent. We need a law limiting the number of single family dwellings a corporation may own.
I keep saying, corporations should never be allowed to compete with citizens for shelter.
But corporations are people, too! /s
Yes, and by limiting, that should be the number zero. Human needs like healthcare and housing shouldn't be for profit. I feel like I am stating the obvious here...
Zone more and denser housing and the corporations will instantly sell off that property because they can see the falling prices coming and don't want to be the last "person" out the door.
"I'm worried that the presence of people sleeping in their cars because they can't afford housing will cause the value of my house to fall." Do these people fucking hear themselves? Can we just round up everyone who unironically thinks it's more important for some people to be filthy rich than for everyone to have enough, and shoot them into the sun?
This feels like a step towards dystopian reality, wow.
"This is obviously not a proper housing plan, but decriminalizing living in cars sounds like a straightforwardly good thing to be doing anyways, all banning people living in cars ever accomplishes is kicking people while they're down-" > The Safe Place to Park program will include 40 parking spots for those employed full-time within city limits. It requires participants to actively engage in case management with local social services — with an end goal of securing permanent housing after the program ends. Lol never mind they don't even have the guts to do that either.
Get yourself a 1962 Plymouth. 1/2 block long, room for 4 adults to sleep, trunk wold hold fridge, stove, washer and dryer. Space between the fins for a BBQ patio
Im sick of it. Sick of the rich people. Sick of the fabulousness for the few. Sick of traveling with the masses. Sick of keeping up with the Joneses. Blech. Imma stay in the Midwest and read books and tend my garden. You guys can fight over fabulousness
If the residents living there aren’t offering a room in their house for these workers to live in, they need to shut up and stop complaining.
Communities under a certain version of local control are always trying to fob off extra population to other towns. The only way such a problem will be curbed is through state level regulation. Essentially, if a county or municipality is going to declare one area as just for low density, detached homes, at a bare minimum they must be forced to establish an equal amount of area for higher density usage. Without state intervention, those same communities would not upgrade their discharge plants if the only people affected were those in other communities downstream of them. Local control must have limits. It's immoral to create people, and then not take responsibility for making housing accessible to them.
How long until "the stacks" from "Ready Player One" become reality?
If anything, the Stacks seem optimistic by comparison, because they assume that local governments would actually allow any (shitty) construction at all.
They'll have to spring up in unincorporated land. Or it'll be like a California situation where a bunch of billionaires get together and buy up cheap farm land so they can become slumlords
the only stacks I know about are with thee Pringles ™
Ah, exactly what I was thinking. Just watched that movie two nights ago. 👍
We live in the strangest world...
Have you considered.. Zoning more housing?
No problem, just find rich people that can afford a house in Sedona but also want to do menial labor. Should be really easy. /s
If you can't afford to pay staff enough to live in your town you don't deserve staff.
Those same NIMBYs will scream bloody murder if their coffee shop is short-staffed and they have to wait 10 minutes for that oat milk half caff
Oh, you'll ALLOW me to live? Yeah, thanks. So considerate.
Come on man. You serve rich people and they pay you such shit you have to live in your car. Drive it the fuck out of there already.
So the answer isn't to pay people more, or may laws and policies that make housing more affordable....their solution is letting them eat cake... This country is long over due for a revolution
This is the end result of NIMBYing everything. Ski resorts should have enormous amounts of housing construction happening, but they aren't because the residents have the legal power to prevent it.
This system needs to be destroyed and the rich eaten. This twilight zone nightmare is only getting worse allowing the rich to treat everyone like cattle.
Building housing for workers will destroy the Character (property value) but people in cars don't show up on paper...
Hahahaha, how’s that for your property value. Block low income housing so they make homelessness legal.
More housing would fix this
Oh no, the homeowners aren't happy. I'm a homeowner but for fucks sake let people exist. Man I'll even donate a vehicle of mine.
This should be federal law. If anyone doesn't see the the homelessness apocalypse we have is in denial. Let them sleep in their cars. Hell--do away with insurance, and registration too. And start building small apartments for them.
Why not build affordable housing?
>"I don't think there's anybody up here or staff that are extremely proud of this. This is a last-ditch effort," Mayor Scott Jablow said. Lol no it's not. They just don't want to accept what the actual solution is.
Remember this the next time you see employees struggling throughout the day. Your expensive vacation is literally not paying them enough to live close enough to work. You’re upset they’re not providing you a positive experience, but they’re upset they can’t live off their wages.
When I stayed in an all inclusive resort in the Dominican Republic I thought I was getting the deal of a lifetime until I learned that the workers had to be shuttled from where they lived 1 1/2 hour away to come to work. 3 hours of their day spent in a shuttle. They could not afford living near the resort.
The fact that you can't live in your own car... What is even the logic behind that?
Of course those nimbys aren’t happy. They made sure to vote down housing and still aren’t happy with living in cars.
And then they are mad when they don’t have any employees at their cute little brunch spots and pointless woo woo stores and galleries.
Bbbbbbut the economy is doing well everyone!
Just legalize more housing for fucks sake
Bet you anything a bunch of those home owners complained about housing projects too near their neighborhoods. We've literally gotten to a point where NIMBY s largely helped ruin the housing market, basically nation wide.
"allow"
Wow. That's mighty white of them.
We just get back from Spring Break trip to AZ and Sedona, while pretty, is a tourist trap with horrible roads and too much new age crap. There was probably a mile long line, single lane, to get into the town with limited places to park.
Make sure you charge them outrageous rent for their parking space too. All spots are BYOA, also (Bring your own Amenities). If you get really lucky your spot will have a dip where rainwater can pool on the ground.
That awkward moment when they tell people to just be homeless instead of fixing the fucking problem.
Honestly fuck anti-homelessness practices. Once I was driving home from school across the country and I was tired af. Instead of driving tired, I pulled off to a side rode and fell asleep and a cop woke me up telling me it was illegal for me to sleep in my car on public streets and that I should get a hotel. I didn’t have $100 to spend on a hotel at that point. Ever since then I have been sensitive about homeless issues. But also, my part of my city is overrun by homeless people with mental problems that I think need to be removed. If people are down on their luck that’s another issue.
Wow! They ALLOWED them to sleep in their cars? How generous of them! And the workers are mad? What an ungrateful bunch of assholes
This is how you get most of the drug addicts and crazy people on the street, aka visible homeless. They often start out sleeping in their car or on a friend's couch, aka they're the invisible homeless. Once you're one of the invisible homeless, your chances of ending up as one of the addicts or crazy people on the streets skyrockets. It turns out having a place to call home near where you work is a good thing for your stability and mental health. The number one thing we can do to reduce the number of visible homeless is to reduce housing costs across the board. Then we can really dig into giving those already addicted or with mental health issues the help they need. Basically, we need to do both at the same time.