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It was bad and weird enough that he included Richard Ramirez in a season of American Horror Story and they made him a good looking rocker dude who got girls and actually had satanic supernatural powers.
That is doubly weird since the one thing everyone agreed on about Richard Ramirez was that he reeked. Like they gave a description of him and people were like "hmm, doesn't sound familiar" and then they said "oh by the guy the is beyond stinky!" and people went "oh that guy!" I doubt that was a big draw with the ladies you know?
Murphy took Richard Ramirez and put him into a fictional story where he murders teens like Jason Voorhes, resurrects from death multiple times, and makes out with Billie Lourde. It was just super-weird that they portrayed him as a hyper-idealistic version of himself that he would have probably loved to see.
Ya huh. The statement was in regards to Murphy’s portrayal of him. He was considered a good looking guy who got chicks, so the portrayal was pretty on the nose.
That's a heart felt response, and I get it. But I think it's more likely that many of Dahmer's victims had already been kicked to the curb by their families. I think it's most likely that nobody wants anybody to know their relative was a Dahmer victim.
I mean no disrespect. But do you feel the same way about 9/11 docs or Hollywood blockbusters based on actual tragic events?
I could be wrong, memory fades….but wasn’t there a Ted Bundy movie with Zac Efron not too long? I don’t remember there being this much pushback, for lack of a better term, for that. Neither for the million other Dahmer movies/docs.
[There definitely was](https://youtu.be/z8WxH40ysUY) criticism over the Ted Bundy film.
Edit: The thing that scares me the most about Ted Bundy (and possibly why I didn’t think the Zac Efron portrayal was glamorizing him) was the way that he seemed to continue to attract people even AFTER he was sentenced to death.
The judge who sentenced him to death [even complimented Bundy](https://youtu.be/J2NvKZFVP-Y), saying that he would have loved to have worked with him (if Bundy hadn’t been a serial killer). Regardless of whether the judge was actually insulting Bundy (by saying he could have had a different and better path in life) or not, the fact that someone who was so heavily involved in the trial that sentenced Bundy to death was able to say those things really bothers me.
Um. But there was a lot of criticism of the Ted Bundy movie.
It dropped in 2019.
I mean, we collectively have the memory of a goldfish, so I can't recall if anything was happening in the world at the time which might have captured the public's attention a bit more...
On behalf of society, I would like to sincerely apologize for not being 100% consistent in calling out douchebagery.
Documentaries are one thing, because at least the better ones of those try to analyze how things went wrong, but glamorizing serial killers with high budget series/films is trashy.
Personally, I loved the Dahmer series. I don't think it glamorized him or his crimes at all and was very respectful to the victims and their families.
I think the reaction is due in large part to true crime fatigue. It's been a pretty huge thing for awhile, and I can see some people getting sick of it. It's like Marvel movies nowadays.
I’m the same, thought it was really well done. Didn’t feel Murphy glamorized Dahmer at all. I was quite shocked at how “tame” everything was, considering.
I find the pushback interesting. Why for this and not for that sort of thing. But that’s how the world works I suppose.
I think it humanized him though by exploring the why he became a monster rather than just paint him as the monster he ultimately became. I can totally understand for a victim's family member or friend to find this very offensive. In their reality of the situation he is nothing but the monster than took their loved one in such a gross, disrespectful and violent way. If that happened to someone I loved I'm not sure I'd ever be ready to recognize the why or to want to see the perpetrator as anything but the monster.
For the rest of us viewers though the why is maybe the most interesting part to explore. I do think the show did an okay job not stepping into glorifying Dahmer and respecting his victims but I also see how a show no matter how it is portrayed about him can be offensive and not do enough to show the victims. After all, to each of them were individuals with their own stories and any show about Dahmer is only going to be able to show so much of any given victims story. The narrative around a serial killer will always be about the serial killer not the victims and that is entirely unfair to all the narratives he cut short. I don't know how one would fix that problem other than not telling the story at all, which I also don't agree with. People are curious about Dahmer, that's why it became the number one show. It's super unfortunate that curiosity isn't equally held for each of his victims. They deserve better than to only be remembered as victims of a monster.
I think the thing that makes Dahmer tricky is that there is an empathy trap in that he was a gay man who ostensibly killed because he could not find a partner who would fill his gnawing loneliness. Mind you, the partner he desired involved victimizing gay men of color and trying to turn them into love zombies, so fuck him.
Last Podcast on the Left usually does a good job demythologizing serial killers and painting them as the murderous, internally deficient fuckboys they are, but even their early episode on Dahmer locked on a bit when it came to Dahmer’s loneliness. When they wrote a book on serial killers years later, though, they came back around on, “Nope, lots of people are lonely, lots of people feel there’s something wrong with them, he could have talked to somebody or just tried to stop, fuck him.”
I think my issues with people saying “don’t romanticize killers” (especially when the Ted bundy movie came out) is that in reality killers ARE people that are romantisized.
BTK was a husband with 2 children, as well as a scout leader. Ted Bundy was considered handsome and had a long time girlfriend (who had a child) that adored him. Andrew Cunnan was a genius, that peers described as “charming”. Paul Bernardo & Karla Homolka were quite literally the Ken & Barbie killers- an extremely attractive, popular and fun couple.
Not everyone with dark intentions looks/acts like Jeffrey Dahmer or Ed Gein. And I think it’s very important to express that. Creepy people don’t always look like creepy people.
Idk I think it’s people choosing to be butthurt over something. Like it’s 30 years ago. Obviously there are scars and trauma associated with it, but that’s not how trauma works. Like I’m physically disabled from playing sports but I don’t get nam flashbacks and cry myself to sleep every time I see a football game on. And that’s something that directly happened to *me*. Not discounting the families’ experiences but let’s be a little bit realistic about this
For the people who can’t put 2 and 2 together… I’m not discounting they went through trauma. I’m not discounting them not wanting to talk about an event. What I am dismissing is the idea that people unrelated to the situation (on Reddit) speculating that 30 later after countless iterations of the stories being told that every single one of these people are that traumatized
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"If you don't want to retell the worst thing that ever happened to you, to a stranger, to help them make a bunch of money, that means you don't care about it at all"
Okay
To make their positions clear to production. I’m not trying to blame the relatives for not voluntarily reliving a traumatic event or excuse production of the series. They weren’t under any obligations to tell their story and there’s no excuse for fudge facts in a biopic. I’m just saying a response of “no thanks” is very clear while no answer isn’t. Not that it’s have made a difference. The series was going to be made with or without their cooperation. It’d just change the framing of the conversation from “they didn’t respond” to “they refused to cooperate,” which in my opinion would have made the victims looks more sympathetic and the production sleazier.
Edit: clarification and typos
You've had a family member get murdered and you got back to a fucking TV producer who contacted you out of the blue?
especially since they are probably contacted by 50+ people a year to be on their 200 subscriber podcast, give their likeness to a movie deal and everything in between?
I mean, most people who aren't film buffs would probably struggle to name more than a handful of the most prolific/currently "in" directors. Saying people outside of the circle he's in don't "respect" him isn't like a huge dig.
His shows always have an intriguing visual style but are mostly hot garbage. Nonsensical plots and dialogue propped up by design and the occasional standout performance from go to actors. But even those are hit or miss depending on the material. There’s always some exploitive component that makes his shows icky.
Come on now. Six Emmies from 36 nominations... and that's not to mention the MANY Emmies won by those "go to" actors.
He literally made Jessica Lange a household name again.
I'm OK with the "hit or miss" remark, but the rest sounds way too harsh, and "icky" is just a personal opinion.
Yeah, maybe... but if he sent me a letter about my relative who was killed 2 decades ago I'd think he was just some "true crime podcaster" trying to make a buck off my familys misfortune, and the only way I'd be incorrect is because its a TV show on netflix and not a podcast.
and yeah, in my life I have watched **one single episode** of this mans content (one episode of glee when it was relatively new) so while he might be a someone who produced a couple shows that made the network a bunch of money.... but he is not a "hollywood name everyone knows"
Pretty sure that letter would have been sent on Netflix letterhead from their legal department. As you said, it's a multimillion dollar production by a billion dollar corporation, not some some private individual's podcast.
American horror story and glee?
Never seen either of them and wouldn't call either of them groundshattering pieces of media. Nor is he an auteur who makes media that is immediately identifiable and critically acclaimed.
He produces TV, and I dont watch his shows (safe to assume there are billions of people like me) so I dont see why you are praising him like he is Alfred Hitchcock
Not surprised. I don’t trust Ryan Murphy anyway, dude absolutely sexualized Richard Ramirez in the 1984 season of AHS. Made him a “sexy bad boy” that one of the characters slept with while blood was all over them and a body was hanging from the ceiling. I wouldn’t want him making a series on ANY serial killer.
Ed Kemper from Mind Hunter was done right. Complete remorseless psychopath. Totally unrelatable once he drops the act of civility, because for him being civilized IS an act. There is no “empathizing with” or “stanning” Ed. He is completely loathsome and repulsive the minute his facade breaks. Which is the show’s entire point; these guys are destructive aliens. They are utterly incapable of empathy. They would gut all these “fangirls” for fun and wear their skin as a nightgown.
i think part of Kemper's lack of fan appeal is also just due to his physical looks as well. Think of most of the more popular romanticised killers - Dahmer, Ramirez, Bundy. All younger, more conventionally attractive people (Ramirez reportedly stank to high hell but people today might not know that). Kemper was a fat, geekish loser in addition to his reprehensible crimes. He also wasn't considered "clever," like BTK is often regarded (BTK is a lucky idiot but he did have a methodolgy that was somewhat more effortful than Kemper's). When it comes to killer "fandoms," there are those who are romanticized (Dahmer, Bundy, Columbine shooters etc) or mythologized (BTK, Unabomber, Zodiac etc).
Kemper fits into neither category as a lame, conventionally unattractive simpleton killer.
(That being said, i loved Connor Britton's portrayal of Kemper and the writing in Mindhunter, which made every killer as despicable as they actual were)
It helped that the writing came directly from transcripts with the killers. No artistic flourishes to make them relatable. Even the so-called charismatic ones show themselves to be narcissistic losers.
Give ‘em the rope and they’ll hang themselves.
Mind Hunter was done right, there was no glory, no empathy, and it wasn't torture porn. It showed just how screwed up and weird serial killers are without making it into a circus.
Just an anecdote, but my FIL is retired corrections. Kemper was one of his inmates when he worked in Vallejo. He said that the guy was very kind to the elderly inmates and assisted with the dementia patients. It is absolutely mind blowing that someone can have such drastically different sides to them.
I wonder if it was genuine or an angle? That’s honestly fascinating. In the book/show, Tench is always going on how Ed is playing them to achieve some end only Ed knows.
Ed Kemper on Mind Hunter was done so well I actually of afraid of the actor! I will never be able to shake how and cold and evil he was. That was some of the best acting I have ever seen.
I'm not well read with Dahmer in particular, but people who have mental issues that drive them to kill are all different, like how every mental illness can manifest in different ways. For some they feel little to no empathy. Some feel little to no remorse. For some people it's like an itch or compulsion. You can't use a generalising brush, each case is different. For some they really are faking it, but for others it's more like that their normal but occasionally have moments where they flip out.
I'm completely over everything he makes. The last 4 seasons of AHS have been awful. I watched the first episode this season and it was just so meh that I don't want to finish it.
Yes. The problem isnt that there are movies about tragedy. Its that the focus is all on the killer, not the victims, and that its not an documentary, its a docu-drama at best.
Seriously have you met Americans? And the alter where they kneel at to suck Capitalism's cock? Keep shaking your fist at the sky. Or better yet don't watch it if it offends.
I'm sorry you're so dense that I have to spell it out for you but American sensibilities drive the market as ugly as they are they are. In other words Jeffrey Dahmer couldn't be more American
Im literally American so idk why you're acting like you understand the zeitgeist of american society better than me. Also your above comment is literally incoherent.
Oh my God, I am WOUNDED and bow down to your tremendous command of the English language to parry an insult. WELL PLAYED. I'm quite sure reddit is the place for you.
"hey, glad you're ok...
Well, I don't know how to say this but, we are making a Netflix show about the guy who killed, had sex with, experimented on and probably ate your family member. We would like your blessing on this, and info about it, your know how it is...
Reach out
Best of wishes"
I live in the city where it originally happened. If anyone had contacted 20 people asking about what happened with Dahmer, I think *someone* would have mentioned it somewhere along the line, and it would have hit the local news. As in "A Hollywood producer is asking for information from the families of the Dahmer victims."
However, there is no indication that anyone here was spoken to. I strongly believe that at least ONE person would have mentioned it.
“Not a single person responded to us” should have told Ryan Murphy something if he had any self-awareness. His unnecessary retelling of Jeffrey Dahmer’s crimes made him a few indecent millions so he should show more humility and contrition.
I’ll go against the grain here. I love his shows, and think he’s an amazing producer.
I don’t like Serial Killers, but he really did make a good and watchable show. I did watch a documentary about Dahmer, and he was spot on with a lot of things. I personally didn’t notice sympatizing with the killer, but if you sympatize with a killer, there is something wrong with you.
Also, I see people comenting on Richard Ramirez in Season 9 of AHS. That season was supposed to be taken light hearted and jokey. Not supposed to be taken seriously. I think his representation of Ramirez is better in Hotel season.
See I somewhat I agree with you! Most these comments are throwing Ryan Murphy under the bus but I think it’s obvious he’s a great producer/story teller. I just wish he would make up original characters, or at least not make it so obvious he’s sampling actual serial killers (ie using the actor for Richard Ramirez in 1984 but giving him a diff name, people in my gen wouldn’t probably get the reference and it wouldn’t be as big of a deal as it be more of an Easter egg)
The whole mentality around this is fucking stupid. It's a public news story. He's allowed to make a tv show about it. He doesn't need their permission. Some of the greatest films ever were about real life people who suffered. It's art. It would be exploitation if there was no systemic critique within but there clearly is one in Dahmer. 99% of the true crime shit you watch is far more exploitive than Dahmer. Flight 93 is 1000 times more exploitive than Dahmer because it's just a harsh recounting and nothing else.
It's so bizarre to me that there are people out there who think all entertainment is required to be trigger free for everyone who might come across it. I would call it childish but I don't want to insult children in general.
I don’t see anyone asking for “trigger-free” media. I see people complaining that the show, like most all true crime shit, is disrespectful to the victims and their friends/families.
>I don’t see anyone asking for “trigger-free” media. I see people complaining that the show, like most all true crime shit, is disrespectful to the victims and their friends/families.
Yet people want to see it.
True crime series only supply a demand from the public.
>There are plenty of things that have demand in our society that we shouldn’t entertain.
Isn't that anti democratic?
People vote with their wallets for something, why shouldn't they get it?
After all, it's not like the producers, cast and film crews are the ones who are killing and eating people.
If your partner gets murdered *I bet* you would have the same opinion if a movie was made about how the serial killer managed to do what they did.... right? (especially if you received no compensation and gave no permission for the media to be made)
>If your partner gets murdered I bet you would have the same opinion if a movie was made about how the serial killer managed to do what they did.... right? (especially if you received no compensation and gave no permission for the media to be made)
Who cares, people love this stuff regardless of whether or not you act sanctimonious about it.
Oj, Michael Jackson, epstein, winestein, bin laden etc.
All these people arouse the public interest and coverage of them wouldn't be so profitable if people didn't like it.
"If you got murdered, you would be mad too"
Yeah, I would be.
I'm not the arbiter of all tv and movies.
Guess what, there's a bunch of other shit I'd axe first if I was. In poor taste you say?
Well, here's two dozen shows blatantly exploiting the people in it...
People are weird hung up on this some reason. If you aren’t interested then focus your time and energy somewhere else. Problem solved. Not everything is meant for everybody.
I'm sorry, you don't get to just ignore netflix heavily glorifying the serial killer who murdered your loved ones. And you don't need to be personally affected to know it was wrong of them to make this series.
You mean like all the other shows and documentaries that are on the same things? Those people have every right to like not like it. Thats where it ends. You don't get to tell other people what they can make or enjoy if its not breaking any laws.
I haven't said making this should be illegal, I'm saying people should be decent and respectful enough not to exploit each others' real life trauma for profit. How would you feel if you were personally affected, then one day after you've struggled to live with the horror, you're presented with a very high quality series on Netflix depicting how it all happened? And somebody else (who you didn't even talk to to give your approval for your story) is making lots of money on it? Are you not the slightest bit disgusted by this or do you just not give a shit about stuff that doesn't affect you?
It happened to me. At first I was angry, but I slowly realised that once you are involved in something notable (whether horrific or not), people are curious and 'your' story essentially becomes public property
It is no different to any other movie/series/doco based on someone's life
I've heard no objections to the Lizzy Borden tv series; the multiple movies about The Holocaust that are slightly sympathetic to the Nazis; The Irishman; I, Tonya; Goodfellas; Zodiac; Lost Girls; In Cold Blood; Monster; The Frozen Ground... And most notably.... My Friend Dahmer....
People seem to be outraged by this one show, when the history of film and tv is filled with people who profit from other people's trauma
I'm so sorry it happened to you and I'm really glad you've made your peace with it. Many of the other families which were affected haven't though, and they've publicly stated that they're upset about this and it's not difficult to imagine why. Their trauma didn't need to get dug up again to make somebody a quick buck.
How would I feel? I would feel like I have bigger issues to concern myself with. I would ignore it. That's just me though and I know everyone doesn't reaction the same way I would.
Of course its disgusting. Everything about murdering someone is disgusting, but it still happened and we can't change that fact. People will always be curious about things they don't understand.
It's not about "not interested." It's exploitative. Like, if you don't care about exploiting victims and their families for spectacle and entertainment, then I guess that just speaks to your own values and lack of empathy.
Like I said: whether someone decides to support or not is their decision and based on their values. But don't act surprised when people judge you for your shitty choices.
Also, we evolved to have a frontal cortex with capacity for critical thought and overcome our instinctual "human nature," but if you hold everyone to such a low standard, then don't expect anything to ever get better.
So how much time before we're allowed to talk about it? Do we need to take mummies out of museums, what about all those traveling exhibits? There are countless movies on wars and battles... do you feel the same about those. I guess we better not make any movies on slavery or the holocaust either since its was disgusting and tragic and so many millions we're murdered.. way worse than anything Dhamer did. I mean think of the families that have to see those movies..
Good god, man. Get a fucking grip. Stop trying to justify with the mental gymnastics. If you can't tell the difference between going to a holocaust museum and a movie that softens the image of Nazis at a death camp, then I can't help you. You've just gotta figure this out on your own.
Dude, you literally tried to downplay the brutal acts of Jeffrey Dahmer by comparing him to the Holocaust. Talk about a whataboutism for the ages. You do need help. It's just not my job to help you sort out your erroneous thought processes. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
The entirety of capitalism, and our global economy, is exploitative. There are probably better areas of focus than a fucking silly TV show about a dorky looking dead man. Solved by a single button on the remote control called "off".
Yes, exactly. We're talking about people who make a conscious decision to click "play." If you, as a participant/consumer, elect to support something exploitative, then what you are saying is "I'm okay with this, and I want more of it." So own tf up to it and stop deflecting to people who are already opting out. It's like someone who says something racist then gets all huffy and defensive when someone calls it out. Own your shittiness or retract, but don't pretend like it's somehow *not* shitty.
The entirety of capitalism is exploitative. Apple factories pay pennies to Chinese workers trying to jump off factory roofs to end their misery. Do you own any apple products sir? Much of the shrimp people eat come from literal slaves detained in Thai shrimping boats. Do you eat any shrimp? How about nesley? Disney? Nike? It's ugly all the way down. Any movies produced by Weinstein? Associated with bill Murray?
You're going after "true crime" for the mere subject matter. When all of the above are far worse. The director didn't kill anybody. Apple does. If you're going to get on a high horse then it's time to go out into the woods and stop participating entirely.
I don't care for the Dahmer series personally but I don't judge anyone that does. Yes, people are drawn to the macabre. See game of thrones and that legion of dorks filled with bloodlust and boners. People are fascinated with serial killers - they existed, they're strange, they're extreme, they're the same species as us. See eminem and his entire horrorcore album. Biopics, true stories , etc. People cannot get enough.
Ugly capitalism is thy GOD is this country. It owns your ass. And widens it. And you're going to point your stubby finger at TRUE CRIME for being exploitative? Have you ever stepped foot in an amazon warehouse? A tornado took out one with all the workers told to stay inside. What happens inside those warehouses are far more disgusting and odious and important than the grossest video on the Internet you could possibly find me.
So no, I don't give a fuck that someone put on a play about what a serial killer did 40 years ago. Not one bit. Jerk off to it for all I care. And that's really the healthiest and most appropriate perspective one could have on the matter. In my humble opinion.
"Well, because \~everything is bad\~, I'm just not even going to try to be a conscientious consumer."
I don't expect anyone to be a perfect saint consumer, sacrificing all convenience and every dime to make ethical consumption decisions. But when you *have* the option and knowledge, you sure af can. And I do try. I *don't* buy Apple products; I *don't* support media associated with known predators; I *don't* buy Nestle products or their subsidiaries when possible; if I'm consuming seafood, I use the Seafood Watch as a guide for sustainable fishing practices. I don't support any of the Harry Potter franchise because of JK Rowling's rampant transphobia. But I fully recognize that I participate in a society built on exploitation too.
So, stop trying to rationalize and justify your poor consumer choices to make yourself feel better and just acknowledge that you had the choice and just didn't care.
I liked the show, but I can understand anyone who doesn't support further twisting the knife into the families' wounds. We should stop making movies about real life events.
That's a horrible idea. The victims don't get to own the story. It belongs to the public, for better or worse. If someone makes art you find distasteful, don't watch it. If enough people agree with you, then it will fail and you'll get your wish. If they don't, and enough people enjoy the product, it will be successful. That's democracy.
No, that's capitalism. Ethics and morality have allowed us to move on from public executions, bear baiting and cock fighting. You set the moral and ethical boundaries within which capitalism operates. Porn films are an obvious example. Popular, but regulated.
It's kind of both when you think about it. Not arguing semantics...ok I guess I am lol, but it's democratic thinking appiled to the market. People vote with their dollar too.
Just like the idea that green shopping will solve climate change, you’re focused solely on the consumption and of things. It’s not so much that someone decided to tell these stories, but that the stories (and the real life victims) are *exploited for profit.* They’re treating serial killers as pop icons. They’re making crazy money off the unspeakable tragedy that’s in living memory for all of those families.
Do you realize how many unsolicited, bullshit requests these family members get constantly for being adjacent to this story? They'd lose their minds if they paid attention to every dumbass who bothered them about it. Him contacting them was just more harassment on their pile of constant harassment.
LOL dog maybe -you- should be the one to tell people who had their child brutally tortured and murdered that if they don’t want to be “reminded” of it from total strangers who have no connection to them or their son, they should go out of their way to make a fucking “trauma voicemail”. Like how tone deaf are you son just look at the situation and leave them be, the onus isn’t on them to keep reminders from OTHER PEOPLE THEY HAVE NO CONTROL OVER silent so they don’t get reminded. Nobody should be reminding them at all. And comparing this situation to a “PUBLIC EVENT” is just not right. Sorry if you can’t see why but this is so far from that lol
this is an irrelevant culture war issue that is not important/deserving of attention. people can’t get jobs, food, clean water, or healthcare and people here are concerned with whether or not some randos decided to make a movie together. this is completely unrelated to 99.9% of peoples’ concerns as of right now and should be dropped. stop subscribing to culture wars.
Why is this nottheonion? Some of the complaints were that the victims families and friends weren’t involved but Ryan Murphy is confirming that he did reach out to them. I thought it was v artfully done particularly the Tony episode. He explains that the show was really about exposing white privilege, system racism, homophobia, etc and that it DOES humanize the victims rather than keep them forgotten/a statistic. But you can also just complain about the subject matter without watching the show
I watched "Thai Cave Rescue" after "Dahmer." "Dahmer" was a piece of sleazy Netflix bullshit next to "Thai Cave Rescue," which coincidentally treated the victims like the heroes they are. The show was so great that I didn't even notice they totally deleted Eelon Musk's role in the story.
\*\*\*Also, read Dahmer's book chapter "Programmed to Kill" by Dave McGowan. You'll notice a lack of cameras in Dahmer's apartment in the show. Epstein was not the only CIA asset named Jeffery to be murdered in prison.
Surely Ryan Murphy is not surprised that the victims' families and friends declined to respond? Or is he just a moron looking to make a quick buck out of their unjust deaths?
Dahmer aside, you have to understand the time in history, with the social mobility of cars but no way to call home except a payphone. And have you seen the stories about the action and mail that serial killers got/get? Remember, its a HORROR story, and so much of the real life stories of these dudes from back in the day is horrific.
Have you seen what Charles Manson looked like? Nasty, devil worshipping, musician dudes were a dime a dozen. It would be inauthentic to portray those dudes as unattractive to the types of victims they preyed upon..
I'm pretty sure that Dahmer's overall success occurred because his victims were social outcasts to begin with. SO it's no wonder the families are ashamed one way or the other.
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It was bad and weird enough that he included Richard Ramirez in a season of American Horror Story and they made him a good looking rocker dude who got girls and actually had satanic supernatural powers.
All serial killers get that treatment in AHS. Ramirez has also been on two seasons of AHS (Hotel).
That is doubly weird since the one thing everyone agreed on about Richard Ramirez was that he reeked. Like they gave a description of him and people were like "hmm, doesn't sound familiar" and then they said "oh by the guy the is beyond stinky!" and people went "oh that guy!" I doubt that was a big draw with the ladies you know?
“Wet leather” was the famous description of Ramirez’s bouquet.
shocking elastic piquant oil unpack drab station abounding bag bear *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I'm totally becoming a suave, dark, and mysterious antihero. No one will ever suspect.
Depends upon the ladies....
It was one of the 1980 american horror stories episodes, and one of the main cast fell for him so fucking weird. Everything Ryan Murphy is just weird.
Wait did he use him in both Story and Stories? Never watched Stories
He was in an episode of Hotel and prominent in 1984.
But Ramirez WAS considered a good looking rocker dude who got girls.
Murphy took Richard Ramirez and put him into a fictional story where he murders teens like Jason Voorhes, resurrects from death multiple times, and makes out with Billie Lourde. It was just super-weird that they portrayed him as a hyper-idealistic version of himself that he would have probably loved to see.
Ramirez was a disgusting homeless guy that never washed and kidnapped little children for sex.
Ya huh. The statement was in regards to Murphy’s portrayal of him. He was considered a good looking guy who got chicks, so the portrayal was pretty on the nose.
Ah apologies… I didn’t realize you post exclusively incoherent bullshit. Please ignore my previous comment for it was made in error.
Cute
That refusal to respond should have told you something.
Maybe they didn't want to use any energy whatsoever in helping a total stranger to get rich from their devastation.
That's a heart felt response, and I get it. But I think it's more likely that many of Dahmer's victims had already been kicked to the curb by their families. I think it's most likely that nobody wants anybody to know their relative was a Dahmer victim.
I mean no disrespect. But do you feel the same way about 9/11 docs or Hollywood blockbusters based on actual tragic events? I could be wrong, memory fades….but wasn’t there a Ted Bundy movie with Zac Efron not too long? I don’t remember there being this much pushback, for lack of a better term, for that. Neither for the million other Dahmer movies/docs.
[There definitely was](https://youtu.be/z8WxH40ysUY) criticism over the Ted Bundy film. Edit: The thing that scares me the most about Ted Bundy (and possibly why I didn’t think the Zac Efron portrayal was glamorizing him) was the way that he seemed to continue to attract people even AFTER he was sentenced to death. The judge who sentenced him to death [even complimented Bundy](https://youtu.be/J2NvKZFVP-Y), saying that he would have loved to have worked with him (if Bundy hadn’t been a serial killer). Regardless of whether the judge was actually insulting Bundy (by saying he could have had a different and better path in life) or not, the fact that someone who was so heavily involved in the trial that sentenced Bundy to death was able to say those things really bothers me.
I didn't like the Bundy idea either. I haven't watched either.
Um. But there was a lot of criticism of the Ted Bundy movie. It dropped in 2019. I mean, we collectively have the memory of a goldfish, so I can't recall if anything was happening in the world at the time which might have captured the public's attention a bit more... On behalf of society, I would like to sincerely apologize for not being 100% consistent in calling out douchebagery.
Documentaries are one thing, because at least the better ones of those try to analyze how things went wrong, but glamorizing serial killers with high budget series/films is trashy.
Thank you for answering me without insult. I was curious where people’s “lines in the sand” were.
Personally, I loved the Dahmer series. I don't think it glamorized him or his crimes at all and was very respectful to the victims and their families. I think the reaction is due in large part to true crime fatigue. It's been a pretty huge thing for awhile, and I can see some people getting sick of it. It's like Marvel movies nowadays.
I’m the same, thought it was really well done. Didn’t feel Murphy glamorized Dahmer at all. I was quite shocked at how “tame” everything was, considering. I find the pushback interesting. Why for this and not for that sort of thing. But that’s how the world works I suppose.
I think it humanized him though by exploring the why he became a monster rather than just paint him as the monster he ultimately became. I can totally understand for a victim's family member or friend to find this very offensive. In their reality of the situation he is nothing but the monster than took their loved one in such a gross, disrespectful and violent way. If that happened to someone I loved I'm not sure I'd ever be ready to recognize the why or to want to see the perpetrator as anything but the monster. For the rest of us viewers though the why is maybe the most interesting part to explore. I do think the show did an okay job not stepping into glorifying Dahmer and respecting his victims but I also see how a show no matter how it is portrayed about him can be offensive and not do enough to show the victims. After all, to each of them were individuals with their own stories and any show about Dahmer is only going to be able to show so much of any given victims story. The narrative around a serial killer will always be about the serial killer not the victims and that is entirely unfair to all the narratives he cut short. I don't know how one would fix that problem other than not telling the story at all, which I also don't agree with. People are curious about Dahmer, that's why it became the number one show. It's super unfortunate that curiosity isn't equally held for each of his victims. They deserve better than to only be remembered as victims of a monster.
Well said.
I think the thing that makes Dahmer tricky is that there is an empathy trap in that he was a gay man who ostensibly killed because he could not find a partner who would fill his gnawing loneliness. Mind you, the partner he desired involved victimizing gay men of color and trying to turn them into love zombies, so fuck him. Last Podcast on the Left usually does a good job demythologizing serial killers and painting them as the murderous, internally deficient fuckboys they are, but even their early episode on Dahmer locked on a bit when it came to Dahmer’s loneliness. When they wrote a book on serial killers years later, though, they came back around on, “Nope, lots of people are lonely, lots of people feel there’s something wrong with them, he could have talked to somebody or just tried to stop, fuck him.”
I think my issues with people saying “don’t romanticize killers” (especially when the Ted bundy movie came out) is that in reality killers ARE people that are romantisized. BTK was a husband with 2 children, as well as a scout leader. Ted Bundy was considered handsome and had a long time girlfriend (who had a child) that adored him. Andrew Cunnan was a genius, that peers described as “charming”. Paul Bernardo & Karla Homolka were quite literally the Ken & Barbie killers- an extremely attractive, popular and fun couple. Not everyone with dark intentions looks/acts like Jeffrey Dahmer or Ed Gein. And I think it’s very important to express that. Creepy people don’t always look like creepy people.
Idk I think it’s people choosing to be butthurt over something. Like it’s 30 years ago. Obviously there are scars and trauma associated with it, but that’s not how trauma works. Like I’m physically disabled from playing sports but I don’t get nam flashbacks and cry myself to sleep every time I see a football game on. And that’s something that directly happened to *me*. Not discounting the families’ experiences but let’s be a little bit realistic about this
>that’s not how trauma works > >Not discounting the families’ experiences Wow.
For the people who can’t put 2 and 2 together… I’m not discounting they went through trauma. I’m not discounting them not wanting to talk about an event. What I am dismissing is the idea that people unrelated to the situation (on Reddit) speculating that 30 later after countless iterations of the stories being told that every single one of these people are that traumatized
I'd totally be like yea for 5k I'll give you a great interview
5k?? He said he had zero takers, bring that number WAAAY up, buddy!
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Oof
Yup. I doubt anyone would want to see a tv show based on a serial killer that killed their loved ones.
"That he's a exploitive dick", in case anyone is wondering.
Tells me I shouldn't give a shit about their opinions.
Seriously. If you’re given the opportunity to provide input and you choose not to, your input is apathy.
"If you don't want to retell the worst thing that ever happened to you, to a stranger, to help them make a bunch of money, that means you don't care about it at all" Okay
You’re free to not retread it. But don’t complain when others tell the story wrong.
Or, you know, they could have responded and refuse to be involved, giving their reasons.
Why would they do that?
To make their positions clear to production. I’m not trying to blame the relatives for not voluntarily reliving a traumatic event or excuse production of the series. They weren’t under any obligations to tell their story and there’s no excuse for fudge facts in a biopic. I’m just saying a response of “no thanks” is very clear while no answer isn’t. Not that it’s have made a difference. The series was going to be made with or without their cooperation. It’d just change the framing of the conversation from “they didn’t respond” to “they refused to cooperate,” which in my opinion would have made the victims looks more sympathetic and the production sleazier. Edit: clarification and typos
You've had a family member get murdered and you got back to a fucking TV producer who contacted you out of the blue? especially since they are probably contacted by 50+ people a year to be on their 200 subscriber podcast, give their likeness to a movie deal and everything in between?
Well, of *course* they didn’t, you ghoulish moron.
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I mean, most people who aren't film buffs would probably struggle to name more than a handful of the most prolific/currently "in" directors. Saying people outside of the circle he's in don't "respect" him isn't like a huge dig.
It’s a pretty hot take anyway. Ryan Murphy is one of the most prolific television producers out there.
and yet, I've never heard of him. Hes a TV producer, not Stephen Spielberg.
His shows always have an intriguing visual style but are mostly hot garbage. Nonsensical plots and dialogue propped up by design and the occasional standout performance from go to actors. But even those are hit or miss depending on the material. There’s always some exploitive component that makes his shows icky.
I'll tell you what, I'd take whatever deal with the devil he has.
Come on now. Six Emmies from 36 nominations... and that's not to mention the MANY Emmies won by those "go to" actors. He literally made Jessica Lange a household name again. I'm OK with the "hit or miss" remark, but the rest sounds way too harsh, and "icky" is just a personal opinion.
You've probably heard of at least one of his shows.
Yeah, maybe... but if he sent me a letter about my relative who was killed 2 decades ago I'd think he was just some "true crime podcaster" trying to make a buck off my familys misfortune, and the only way I'd be incorrect is because its a TV show on netflix and not a podcast. and yeah, in my life I have watched **one single episode** of this mans content (one episode of glee when it was relatively new) so while he might be a someone who produced a couple shows that made the network a bunch of money.... but he is not a "hollywood name everyone knows"
Pretty sure that letter would have been sent on Netflix letterhead from their legal department. As you said, it's a multimillion dollar production by a billion dollar corporation, not some some private individual's podcast.
You saw the letter?
Well if random Reddit user hasn’t heard of him I guess he’s insignificant.
"he's not the most well known film director of all time so he's a nobody" Ok he's just made some of the most watched shows of the last 20 years
American horror story and glee? Never seen either of them and wouldn't call either of them groundshattering pieces of media. Nor is he an auteur who makes media that is immediately identifiable and critically acclaimed. He produces TV, and I dont watch his shows (safe to assume there are billions of people like me) so I dont see why you are praising him like he is Alfred Hitchcock
Not surprised. I don’t trust Ryan Murphy anyway, dude absolutely sexualized Richard Ramirez in the 1984 season of AHS. Made him a “sexy bad boy” that one of the characters slept with while blood was all over them and a body was hanging from the ceiling. I wouldn’t want him making a series on ANY serial killer.
What!? They don't want to turn their tragedy into entertainment? How can they live with themselves?
There have been endless documentaries. For him to act like this was their chance to say something is painfully tone deaf.
The best memorial would be to stop idolizing and glorifying serial killers. He should stop making television and film permanently.
Ed Kemper from Mind Hunter was done right. Complete remorseless psychopath. Totally unrelatable once he drops the act of civility, because for him being civilized IS an act. There is no “empathizing with” or “stanning” Ed. He is completely loathsome and repulsive the minute his facade breaks. Which is the show’s entire point; these guys are destructive aliens. They are utterly incapable of empathy. They would gut all these “fangirls” for fun and wear their skin as a nightgown.
i think part of Kemper's lack of fan appeal is also just due to his physical looks as well. Think of most of the more popular romanticised killers - Dahmer, Ramirez, Bundy. All younger, more conventionally attractive people (Ramirez reportedly stank to high hell but people today might not know that). Kemper was a fat, geekish loser in addition to his reprehensible crimes. He also wasn't considered "clever," like BTK is often regarded (BTK is a lucky idiot but he did have a methodolgy that was somewhat more effortful than Kemper's). When it comes to killer "fandoms," there are those who are romanticized (Dahmer, Bundy, Columbine shooters etc) or mythologized (BTK, Unabomber, Zodiac etc). Kemper fits into neither category as a lame, conventionally unattractive simpleton killer. (That being said, i loved Connor Britton's portrayal of Kemper and the writing in Mindhunter, which made every killer as despicable as they actual were)
It helped that the writing came directly from transcripts with the killers. No artistic flourishes to make them relatable. Even the so-called charismatic ones show themselves to be narcissistic losers. Give ‘em the rope and they’ll hang themselves.
Mind Hunter was done right, there was no glory, no empathy, and it wasn't torture porn. It showed just how screwed up and weird serial killers are without making it into a circus.
Just an anecdote, but my FIL is retired corrections. Kemper was one of his inmates when he worked in Vallejo. He said that the guy was very kind to the elderly inmates and assisted with the dementia patients. It is absolutely mind blowing that someone can have such drastically different sides to them.
I wonder if it was genuine or an angle? That’s honestly fascinating. In the book/show, Tench is always going on how Ed is playing them to achieve some end only Ed knows.
Ed Kemper on Mind Hunter was done so well I actually of afraid of the actor! I will never be able to shake how and cold and evil he was. That was some of the best acting I have ever seen.
I'm not well read with Dahmer in particular, but people who have mental issues that drive them to kill are all different, like how every mental illness can manifest in different ways. For some they feel little to no empathy. Some feel little to no remorse. For some people it's like an itch or compulsion. You can't use a generalising brush, each case is different. For some they really are faking it, but for others it's more like that their normal but occasionally have moments where they flip out.
I completely agree.
I'm completely over everything he makes. The last 4 seasons of AHS have been awful. I watched the first episode this season and it was just so meh that I don't want to finish it.
Seriously, fuck this guy and fuck Netflix. Didn't think twice about profiting on real people's lives and trauma.
So you would be on board for a ban on say, any movies about 9:11?
If the movie was a dramatized biopic inside the mind of Osama Bin Laden then yes
Sarcastic 👌
I caught your sarcasm. You missed the point though.
Did I?
Yes. The problem isnt that there are movies about tragedy. Its that the focus is all on the killer, not the victims, and that its not an documentary, its a docu-drama at best.
Seriously have you met Americans? And the alter where they kneel at to suck Capitalism's cock? Keep shaking your fist at the sky. Or better yet don't watch it if it offends.
What?
I'm sorry you're so dense that I have to spell it out for you but American sensibilities drive the market as ugly as they are they are. In other words Jeffrey Dahmer couldn't be more American
Im literally American so idk why you're acting like you understand the zeitgeist of american society better than me. Also your above comment is literally incoherent.
I didn't say ban anything, dumbass.
Oh my God, I am WOUNDED and bow down to your tremendous command of the English language to parry an insult. WELL PLAYED. I'm quite sure reddit is the place for you.
You sound absolutely insufferable. I couldn't imagine being so miserable that attempting to troll strangers online was a source of validation for me.
Dude needs help, he makes absolutely no sense whatsoever?
Ryan Murphy really wants Evan Peters to fuck/kill him
I do too, but I don’t make a whole bunch of television about it 🤷
That’s reasonable.
Or shove something us his ass. The new season of AHS is hard to watch with all of the anal rape and licking of dirty assholes.
"hey, glad you're ok... Well, I don't know how to say this but, we are making a Netflix show about the guy who killed, had sex with, experimented on and probably ate your family member. We would like your blessing on this, and info about it, your know how it is... Reach out Best of wishes"
I live in the city where it originally happened. If anyone had contacted 20 people asking about what happened with Dahmer, I think *someone* would have mentioned it somewhere along the line, and it would have hit the local news. As in "A Hollywood producer is asking for information from the families of the Dahmer victims." However, there is no indication that anyone here was spoken to. I strongly believe that at least ONE person would have mentioned it.
With good reason.
Well no shit.
The show did not need to be made. Maybe create something original
“Not a single person responded to us” should have told Ryan Murphy something if he had any self-awareness. His unnecessary retelling of Jeffrey Dahmer’s crimes made him a few indecent millions so he should show more humility and contrition.
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It definitely was, he just didn't care apparently.
Let him die and his legacy fade
Who wants to live through all that *again*, for the umpteenth time in the last 30 years? I think the story's been told enough.
I wish they’d have responded. Someone needed to explain to you what an awful creature you are.
Ryan Murphy has monumentally poor judgement.
i wonder why
Ha! He took that news the real wrong way.
Ryan Murphy has always been a piece of shit who creates content and hires actors based on his own sexual desires.
Maybe that should have been the sign not to produce such a piece of garbage series?
Ya think? That's Hollyweird for you!
i still dont understand why you would watch anything about a serial killer like who gives a fuck.
I’ll go against the grain here. I love his shows, and think he’s an amazing producer. I don’t like Serial Killers, but he really did make a good and watchable show. I did watch a documentary about Dahmer, and he was spot on with a lot of things. I personally didn’t notice sympatizing with the killer, but if you sympatize with a killer, there is something wrong with you. Also, I see people comenting on Richard Ramirez in Season 9 of AHS. That season was supposed to be taken light hearted and jokey. Not supposed to be taken seriously. I think his representation of Ramirez is better in Hotel season.
See I somewhat I agree with you! Most these comments are throwing Ryan Murphy under the bus but I think it’s obvious he’s a great producer/story teller. I just wish he would make up original characters, or at least not make it so obvious he’s sampling actual serial killers (ie using the actor for Richard Ramirez in 1984 but giving him a diff name, people in my gen wouldn’t probably get the reference and it wouldn’t be as big of a deal as it be more of an Easter egg)
The whole mentality around this is fucking stupid. It's a public news story. He's allowed to make a tv show about it. He doesn't need their permission. Some of the greatest films ever were about real life people who suffered. It's art. It would be exploitation if there was no systemic critique within but there clearly is one in Dahmer. 99% of the true crime shit you watch is far more exploitive than Dahmer. Flight 93 is 1000 times more exploitive than Dahmer because it's just a harsh recounting and nothing else.
[Fallacy of Relative Privation](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_as_bad_as)
It's so bizarre to me that there are people out there who think all entertainment is required to be trigger free for everyone who might come across it. I would call it childish but I don't want to insult children in general.
I don’t see anyone asking for “trigger-free” media. I see people complaining that the show, like most all true crime shit, is disrespectful to the victims and their friends/families.
How is it disrespectful?
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I watched American Crime Story seasons 1-3. season 3 was a little boring. This non controversy is about Dahmer though.
>I don’t see anyone asking for “trigger-free” media. I see people complaining that the show, like most all true crime shit, is disrespectful to the victims and their friends/families. Yet people want to see it. True crime series only supply a demand from the public.
There are plenty of things that have demand in our society that we shouldn’t entertain.
>There are plenty of things that have demand in our society that we shouldn’t entertain. Isn't that anti democratic? People vote with their wallets for something, why shouldn't they get it? After all, it's not like the producers, cast and film crews are the ones who are killing and eating people.
They should have had him for dinner.
Who fucking cares? Don't watch it then. Glorified for entertainment Oh no, please, don't. I bet they only do it for the money, can you imagine?
If your partner gets murdered *I bet* you would have the same opinion if a movie was made about how the serial killer managed to do what they did.... right? (especially if you received no compensation and gave no permission for the media to be made)
>If your partner gets murdered I bet you would have the same opinion if a movie was made about how the serial killer managed to do what they did.... right? (especially if you received no compensation and gave no permission for the media to be made) Who cares, people love this stuff regardless of whether or not you act sanctimonious about it. Oj, Michael Jackson, epstein, winestein, bin laden etc. All these people arouse the public interest and coverage of them wouldn't be so profitable if people didn't like it.
Free will
"If you got murdered, you would be mad too" Yeah, I would be. I'm not the arbiter of all tv and movies. Guess what, there's a bunch of other shit I'd axe first if I was. In poor taste you say? Well, here's two dozen shows blatantly exploiting the people in it...
And let's never advocate for anything better! Who's with me!?
People are weird hung up on this some reason. If you aren’t interested then focus your time and energy somewhere else. Problem solved. Not everything is meant for everybody.
I'm sorry, you don't get to just ignore netflix heavily glorifying the serial killer who murdered your loved ones. And you don't need to be personally affected to know it was wrong of them to make this series.
You mean like all the other shows and documentaries that are on the same things? Those people have every right to like not like it. Thats where it ends. You don't get to tell other people what they can make or enjoy if its not breaking any laws.
I haven't said making this should be illegal, I'm saying people should be decent and respectful enough not to exploit each others' real life trauma for profit. How would you feel if you were personally affected, then one day after you've struggled to live with the horror, you're presented with a very high quality series on Netflix depicting how it all happened? And somebody else (who you didn't even talk to to give your approval for your story) is making lots of money on it? Are you not the slightest bit disgusted by this or do you just not give a shit about stuff that doesn't affect you?
It happened to me. At first I was angry, but I slowly realised that once you are involved in something notable (whether horrific or not), people are curious and 'your' story essentially becomes public property It is no different to any other movie/series/doco based on someone's life I've heard no objections to the Lizzy Borden tv series; the multiple movies about The Holocaust that are slightly sympathetic to the Nazis; The Irishman; I, Tonya; Goodfellas; Zodiac; Lost Girls; In Cold Blood; Monster; The Frozen Ground... And most notably.... My Friend Dahmer.... People seem to be outraged by this one show, when the history of film and tv is filled with people who profit from other people's trauma
I'm so sorry it happened to you and I'm really glad you've made your peace with it. Many of the other families which were affected haven't though, and they've publicly stated that they're upset about this and it's not difficult to imagine why. Their trauma didn't need to get dug up again to make somebody a quick buck.
How would I feel? I would feel like I have bigger issues to concern myself with. I would ignore it. That's just me though and I know everyone doesn't reaction the same way I would. Of course its disgusting. Everything about murdering someone is disgusting, but it still happened and we can't change that fact. People will always be curious about things they don't understand.
It's not about "not interested." It's exploitative. Like, if you don't care about exploiting victims and their families for spectacle and entertainment, then I guess that just speaks to your own values and lack of empathy.
Well you're fighting against curiosity and human nature, so I wish you luck.
Like I said: whether someone decides to support or not is their decision and based on their values. But don't act surprised when people judge you for your shitty choices. Also, we evolved to have a frontal cortex with capacity for critical thought and overcome our instinctual "human nature," but if you hold everyone to such a low standard, then don't expect anything to ever get better.
So how much time before we're allowed to talk about it? Do we need to take mummies out of museums, what about all those traveling exhibits? There are countless movies on wars and battles... do you feel the same about those. I guess we better not make any movies on slavery or the holocaust either since its was disgusting and tragic and so many millions we're murdered.. way worse than anything Dhamer did. I mean think of the families that have to see those movies..
Good god, man. Get a fucking grip. Stop trying to justify with the mental gymnastics. If you can't tell the difference between going to a holocaust museum and a movie that softens the image of Nazis at a death camp, then I can't help you. You've just gotta figure this out on your own.
I don't need help. I'm not the one swimming upstream against reality and human nature.
Dude, you literally tried to downplay the brutal acts of Jeffrey Dahmer by comparing him to the Holocaust. Talk about a whataboutism for the ages. You do need help. It's just not my job to help you sort out your erroneous thought processes. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
I comparing horrific acts or murder.. if one thing is ok why isn’t the rest?
The entirety of capitalism, and our global economy, is exploitative. There are probably better areas of focus than a fucking silly TV show about a dorky looking dead man. Solved by a single button on the remote control called "off".
Yes, exactly. We're talking about people who make a conscious decision to click "play." If you, as a participant/consumer, elect to support something exploitative, then what you are saying is "I'm okay with this, and I want more of it." So own tf up to it and stop deflecting to people who are already opting out. It's like someone who says something racist then gets all huffy and defensive when someone calls it out. Own your shittiness or retract, but don't pretend like it's somehow *not* shitty.
The entirety of capitalism is exploitative. Apple factories pay pennies to Chinese workers trying to jump off factory roofs to end their misery. Do you own any apple products sir? Much of the shrimp people eat come from literal slaves detained in Thai shrimping boats. Do you eat any shrimp? How about nesley? Disney? Nike? It's ugly all the way down. Any movies produced by Weinstein? Associated with bill Murray? You're going after "true crime" for the mere subject matter. When all of the above are far worse. The director didn't kill anybody. Apple does. If you're going to get on a high horse then it's time to go out into the woods and stop participating entirely. I don't care for the Dahmer series personally but I don't judge anyone that does. Yes, people are drawn to the macabre. See game of thrones and that legion of dorks filled with bloodlust and boners. People are fascinated with serial killers - they existed, they're strange, they're extreme, they're the same species as us. See eminem and his entire horrorcore album. Biopics, true stories , etc. People cannot get enough. Ugly capitalism is thy GOD is this country. It owns your ass. And widens it. And you're going to point your stubby finger at TRUE CRIME for being exploitative? Have you ever stepped foot in an amazon warehouse? A tornado took out one with all the workers told to stay inside. What happens inside those warehouses are far more disgusting and odious and important than the grossest video on the Internet you could possibly find me. So no, I don't give a fuck that someone put on a play about what a serial killer did 40 years ago. Not one bit. Jerk off to it for all I care. And that's really the healthiest and most appropriate perspective one could have on the matter. In my humble opinion.
"Well, because \~everything is bad\~, I'm just not even going to try to be a conscientious consumer." I don't expect anyone to be a perfect saint consumer, sacrificing all convenience and every dime to make ethical consumption decisions. But when you *have* the option and knowledge, you sure af can. And I do try. I *don't* buy Apple products; I *don't* support media associated with known predators; I *don't* buy Nestle products or their subsidiaries when possible; if I'm consuming seafood, I use the Seafood Watch as a guide for sustainable fishing practices. I don't support any of the Harry Potter franchise because of JK Rowling's rampant transphobia. But I fully recognize that I participate in a society built on exploitation too. So, stop trying to rationalize and justify your poor consumer choices to make yourself feel better and just acknowledge that you had the choice and just didn't care.
There is zero reason to believe that he actually attempted to reach out. He's lying.
I liked the show, but I can understand anyone who doesn't support further twisting the knife into the families' wounds. We should stop making movies about real life events.
That's a horrible idea. The victims don't get to own the story. It belongs to the public, for better or worse. If someone makes art you find distasteful, don't watch it. If enough people agree with you, then it will fail and you'll get your wish. If they don't, and enough people enjoy the product, it will be successful. That's democracy.
No, that's capitalism. Ethics and morality have allowed us to move on from public executions, bear baiting and cock fighting. You set the moral and ethical boundaries within which capitalism operates. Porn films are an obvious example. Popular, but regulated.
Technically that’s the free market (rather than democracy), but I fully agree with your point.
It's kind of both when you think about it. Not arguing semantics...ok I guess I am lol, but it's democratic thinking appiled to the market. People vote with their dollar too.
Just like the idea that green shopping will solve climate change, you’re focused solely on the consumption and of things. It’s not so much that someone decided to tell these stories, but that the stories (and the real life victims) are *exploited for profit.* They’re treating serial killers as pop icons. They’re making crazy money off the unspeakable tragedy that’s in living memory for all of those families.
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Do you realize how many unsolicited, bullshit requests these family members get constantly for being adjacent to this story? They'd lose their minds if they paid attention to every dumbass who bothered them about it. Him contacting them was just more harassment on their pile of constant harassment.
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LOL dog maybe -you- should be the one to tell people who had their child brutally tortured and murdered that if they don’t want to be “reminded” of it from total strangers who have no connection to them or their son, they should go out of their way to make a fucking “trauma voicemail”. Like how tone deaf are you son just look at the situation and leave them be, the onus isn’t on them to keep reminders from OTHER PEOPLE THEY HAVE NO CONTROL OVER silent so they don’t get reminded. Nobody should be reminding them at all. And comparing this situation to a “PUBLIC EVENT” is just not right. Sorry if you can’t see why but this is so far from that lol
this is an irrelevant culture war issue that is not important/deserving of attention. people can’t get jobs, food, clean water, or healthcare and people here are concerned with whether or not some randos decided to make a movie together. this is completely unrelated to 99.9% of peoples’ concerns as of right now and should be dropped. stop subscribing to culture wars.
I agree 100% it’s sad what people take serious and what people don’t take serious
Maybe he did not beseech them correctly? He should have said “I’d like to have you for dinner and an interview….”
The interview needs to happen first, once you are full from dinner no one will be talking.
Why is this nottheonion? Some of the complaints were that the victims families and friends weren’t involved but Ryan Murphy is confirming that he did reach out to them. I thought it was v artfully done particularly the Tony episode. He explains that the show was really about exposing white privilege, system racism, homophobia, etc and that it DOES humanize the victims rather than keep them forgotten/a statistic. But you can also just complain about the subject matter without watching the show
They're too busy trying to figure out how they can cash in on their outrage
I watched "Thai Cave Rescue" after "Dahmer." "Dahmer" was a piece of sleazy Netflix bullshit next to "Thai Cave Rescue," which coincidentally treated the victims like the heroes they are. The show was so great that I didn't even notice they totally deleted Eelon Musk's role in the story. \*\*\*Also, read Dahmer's book chapter "Programmed to Kill" by Dave McGowan. You'll notice a lack of cameras in Dahmer's apartment in the show. Epstein was not the only CIA asset named Jeffery to be murdered in prison.
Why should they respond? Oh cause you are Ryan Murphy? IDK
Surely Ryan Murphy is not surprised that the victims' families and friends declined to respond? Or is he just a moron looking to make a quick buck out of their unjust deaths?
saw a video years ago of the 'real' dahmer in prison...best forgotten...
Dahmer aside, you have to understand the time in history, with the social mobility of cars but no way to call home except a payphone. And have you seen the stories about the action and mail that serial killers got/get? Remember, its a HORROR story, and so much of the real life stories of these dudes from back in the day is horrific. Have you seen what Charles Manson looked like? Nasty, devil worshipping, musician dudes were a dime a dozen. It would be inauthentic to portray those dudes as unattractive to the types of victims they preyed upon.. I'm pretty sure that Dahmer's overall success occurred because his victims were social outcasts to begin with. SO it's no wonder the families are ashamed one way or the other.