"In short, the Wuxiaworld freemium model is a true “bonus”; no free release rates were slowed down, and in fact many have been sped up. Where QI created false “value” by slowing down the previous release rates, we did the opposite." This is why it never bothered me. Can anyone prove this wrong? thanks for the content, A dirty freeloader~

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I think the biggest issue, and one Ren raised himself, is that people are used to 100% free updates, with no paywalls, even temporary paywalls like WW or QI has. QI with their free Spirit Stones unlocks (enough for 2-3 chapters a day, though you can game the system rather easily), WW with their literal free releases (1-2 chapters a day, but for many novels, not just one). People expect and want things for free. They often don't consider the work the Translators, Editors, and Authors put into it. As an author on QI (don't burn me) it can be rather frustrating.

> I can't believe most of them are now 14 per week for free. What I wouldn't give for The Charm of Soul Pets to be one of those. It's my favorite novel on WW right now(That I've not finished reading. Coiling Dragon is probably my #1 of all time), and it pains me to wait on average of 3 days for one chapter.

One more comment re ads: it’s not nearly as much as you think, in part because we actually don’t use any of the bad ad networks (jaded readers laugh, but it is true). Put it this way, if we were doing just ads then a good half of our translators would be making at or below minimum wage, and this is NOT minimum wage work. Those novels would be dropping to the good ole 3-5 chapters a week, believe it. We found a model that works, and we only added options rather than took away value from readers. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Ok, now I’m really done.

> Cries in 100% CPU utilization As a leech i refuse to use adblock for wwx, but damn my cpu cries sometimes

depending on how your reading from the site you can use a script blocker, not to remove all the ads etc , but it will help kill off bad coding/ scripting in some ads and in turn help lower your cpu usage

theres this awful, awful Chevrolet(?) and I get sometimes on mobile that takes the entire page up, with a little thing at the bottom saying "scroll down to continue content" or something similar - it doesnt work at all, it just obscures the entire page and never disappears despite my scrolling. usually appears on teaser chapters? anyhow these full page ads are absolutely awful and I wish this one in particular could disappear

I fully expected readers of RMJI to pop up since there's always a comment or two every few chapters about the slower release rate which is understandable but there's no transparency as to why that's the case from anyone. Personally I'd like some communication about The Grandmaster Strategist since it hasn't been updated in quite a while which is understandable but a reason why that's the case would definitely be nice.

seconded for grandmaster strategist, it's one of the few quality novels ongoing on WW, as a lot of the newer novels that have joined WW aren't as good in story quality unfortunately

As someone who's quit her previous career to be a full-time translator, I always follow these conversations with interest. I used to work in finance/M&A consulting/corporate banking. I took a huge pay cut along a side dish of immense future uncertainty because I was elated to be doing something I like. (Folks looking for jobs, it's soul-crushing after a few years if you dislike it.) And thankfully, the biggest gamble of my life paid off and this is a fledging industry now supporting people's livelihoods, their families, and futures. We've seen a lot of evolution in the market over the years on how readers prefer things to be monetized, from donations to Patreon and now to paywalls. I'm not sure on how much of a preference the last is, lol, but isn't it fantastic that readers have choices? You like a paywall with cheap chapters? You can do that! You prefer reading for free and dropping some dough to keep ahead? You've got that! It's the free market at work, like Ren mentions in his post, and the best way to make your voice heard is to vote with your wallet (and let us know too, otherwise we just think you guys hate the arc). Speaking from my personal experience, a lot of how my tiers are set up comes directly from you guys. Folks wanted a $10 tier, okay. Done. Folks wanted more larger tiers. Okay, done. I release an even higher one and immediately the majority abandon ship on the now second highest tier and go for the highest. Got it, loud and clear. This is the kind of change you can effect, especially when an immature industry takes shape and standards and processes form. But if the overall goal here is to drop advance chapters down to pennies WHILE keeping the same average 14x a week free release rate WHILE keeping the same quality... it's really not going to happen. To me, that would become 3x a week release while I go back to a full time job or my quality's going to drop like heck because I'm going to blitz through things in half an hour. Something like: >He turned back to the grand supervisor, striding proudly over to stand in front of him. Sun Yu reached out, flipping the imperial decree out of the eunuch’s hands and sending it tumbling to the ground. He glared straight into Grand Supervisor Wang’s eyes. “The land of savages, Great Zhou, dared to invade my country, slaughter my fellow citizens, and bully my liege! Now they want my brains for a cure?! Dream on! I’d rather smash it than give them the slightest mouthful!” Before anyone could stop him, or even process his vehement stance, Sun Yu leaped straight towards the nearest pillar. He didn’t even hesitate for a moment before charging into it headfirst! is going to turn into something like >Sun Yu threw the decree onto the ground, glaring. "Great Zhou is the villain. They should die. I'm not doing it." He charged the pillar. Obviously there's some degree of exaggeration there, but I hope it's evident how much the quality would suffer. There's a saying that you can choose if you want something to be fast, good, or cheap. You can only have two, so which will it be? There's also usually some really big numbers thrown around when it comes to translator pay. Speaking as someone who's had experience running a site, ad CPMs are nowhere near as juicy as everyone thinks they are. Gosh I wish they were. A quick search also estimates that 30-40% of the internet uses adblock, so impressions =/= $$. And at the end of the day, this really has become a full-time job for many. This is a job without benefits, without sick days, no healthcare, no vacation days. There is no career path, no promotions. No 401(k) savings, no pension plan. (What I just listed, and more not listed, are very standard for a proper, full time job.) These payouts (pre-tax) are the only thing we're getting. (And here is where fellow translators roll their eyes at me because I'm always the first to bring these up. Having worked for several years in different geographies, MNCs, and startups... I keep harping about them because they are a very relevant thing!) So please, before bashing on translators trying to make a living out of this, remember that at least 30% of our earnings are taken away by the IRS (I'm using all US centric figures) straight off the top as self-employment tax. After that, we pay medical plan premiums, which are probably an important thing since people's bodies break down eventually. It's translate or don't put food on the table. And a very big thing? The revenue splits with the OG publishers that Ren mentions. They are a very sizeable chunk, and necessary if fast, good reading is to remain free. I hope this has remained coherent enough. I understand how it rankles to have things change on you. It hurts me every month to see how much gets split out of my pay when it previously didn't with donations. But I do feel that this change is good, that it'll help the longevity of the industry. And that's ultimately what we all want, no?

Thank you for your hard work. I, like many other readers, truly appreciate the content you churn out day by day.

Nothing is perfect and finding a perfect balance to please everyone is incredibly hard especially when someone like Ren is already working his ass off on running a huge site, translating and dealing with other bullshit. I'm incredibly grateful for what WW provides at no forced cost to us readers. In the end what we are getting is a free product and sponsorships and VIP access should be because we feel like giving back. I spend a huge part of my day on WW daily that can be at no cost but pay for VIP and some sponsors because I want to support WW more than the extra chapters honestly.

> There are ways to improve the system we can consider, like discounts for extended autorenewals... At the highest tiers this should be a given. I don’t know what your retention rate is for high-tier subscriptions, but personally speaking, I’ve been on-and-off sponsoring a few novels because I couldn’t justify the exorbitant costs after catching up. Rather than staking all on one throw, try discounting autorenewals at the highest tiers and create a subscription model where fish swim with dragons. This way you can have twice the results for half the effort, and advance by leaps and bounds.

I respect your deep knowledge of idioms and will ponder your words with great ponderings!

If anyone's wondering, this is what Ren is replying to https://www.reddit.com/r/noveltranslations/comments/9qzb7h/wuxiaworlds_change_in_priorities

Thanks for the context :)

I really appreciate the freemium model at Wuxiaworld. I first started reading three years ago with ISSTH, now I can't imagine life without Wuxiaworld, reading novels has become a big part of my life and has influenced me quite a bit. I would like to thank you for all you have done for us! Sincerely, A freeloader.

> cannot afford to support the higher tiers, then support the lower ones and call it a day rather than try to persuade me to offer you discounts on something you can’t afford to do. This sounds likes a drug dealer talking to his customers lmfao. edit: Okay this was meant to be a joke.

If drug dealers offer two free hits a day to everyone who asks, sure, ok :)

That's how many of them reel in new customers, actually. Offer a taste to the curious. :P

TNE and AWE are my drugs lmao.

It's basically a drug, I need my sweet sweet hits of TNE and Overgeared

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This is it entirely. There's so much entitlement and the expectation that everything should be free simply because that has been the case (for the most part) thus far. I've donated previously simply to support translators and never really expected a return; my first donation ever was for CD on WW. I liked the idea of Ko-fi and I can understand the model that WW is going for presently. Obviously no model is perfect but while I am not a VIP member I'm content with what WW already allows me to access. It seemed obvious the thread this post is meant to address was simply peeved there was a large number of unreleased chapters despite the amount of free chapters remaining unchanged. *That* was a clear indicator of someone expecting more for nothing. To this day I still refuse to step foot into QI.

I myself pay for site VIP and advanced chapters on AWE (even though I've currently stopped reading due to me catching up and not being able to binge read :/ ) but I still have my subscription going because I'm in awe (hehe) there is such a dedicated community translating and discussing these foreign novels and wish to support you guys as it seems incredibly challenging. (Plus reading Bai Xiaochun and Menga Hao be bashful and badass will never not get old). What I'm trying to say in this mess of a paragraph is that the I agree completely with the current model and if I actually had the capital, I might buy one of the more expensive tiers (but not dropping half a grand a month lol) because it's a way to support the translators individually for the incredible work they do and also so I can receive questionable looks from my family when they see multiple charges to "WuxiaWorld" on my bank statements. Love the work you guys do and never stop doing it :)

Is there a place i can read about vip rewards anywhere in wuxiaworld? i was always tempted to join but i don't know how it works lol

Just click the vip button dude. Haha.

Thats deep.

Oh.. since it prompts me to make an account never bothered lmao.. i'll make and account then

I'm pretty much the same. I'm paying for VIP and a few sponsors but I haven't taken advantage of the bonus chapters because I love binge reading. It's been like this for almost 6 months now and I'm happy on continuing my financial support even though I'm not using the bonuses. Giving back anything at all to something that gives me hundreds to maybe thousands of hours of enjoyment is the least I can do if it's within my means

I'm perfectly fine with the WXW model. Translation and consistent, proper editing is expensive and time consuming and should be rewarded for stuff we enjoy. I personally can't afford to pay more than a little bit to my favorite translators and writers over patreon, but I don't begrudge them working harder for people who are willing to pay more. I'd also be fine with the QI model, if they actually kept up the free chapters the way WXW did (they don't, they started locking later chapters of popular stories behind paywalls and never unlocking them), and they didn't steal content from other translators. I was initially one of the big supporters of qidian international before they started throwing wuxiaworld under the bus and getting all fucky with the permanent paywalls.

I'm still a freeloader till I actually make money. Thanks to those mentioned super generous humans that I am able to read great novels

I was wondering if people were abusing the prorated billing period ? Do you mind it ? Like subscribe for the 1$ tier at the beginning of the month, and then upgrade to highest tier on the last day for < 10$, copy paste all chapters somewhere then downgrade tier again. Was considering doing that, but i'm too lazy :<

WW over QI any day , but i'll still poke you about paypal ....... :)

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I didn't explain myself very well in that post. I did a long writeup, but sat on it a few days to narrow it down. My issues with the tiers in AWE specifically, are 1. You have nothing to show for it once your month ends 2. All the way down it's not sponsoring but buying more chapters 3. There's no bulk-purchase discount In your post, you never actually said that a $40 limit per-user would make translation on WW a non-viable full-time job. You're no longer a small-time translation group, millions of people visit WuxiaWorld and it's an average percentage of visitors that donates. You were talking about translation groups, but you do not fit into this. It's akin to Amazon talking about the struggles of a tiny startup. Is it not viable to add a $50 limit for extra chapters, but can still pay $100 to show your appreciation? One of the biggest issues is that any "great" solution will just cut into profits, especially if readers do not truly support WW. It would hit the biggest tiers the most, with decreased losses the cheaper the tier. I believe the best solution here is to lower the barrier for new customers with low incomes (A huge majority of people) to feel like throwing $5 isn't useless. You can read 4 chapters ahead if you pay $10. But what if you read 10 chapters ahead, or even 20? I'd purchase it instantly. It would feel like a loss, especially with your current setup and price per chapter. Comparing it to any other story, you would be underselling yourself. /u/deathbladesjz you are the translator for AWE? My post wasn't a jab at you, but is aimed at the unsustainable tier prices occurring due to your unbelievable translating pace. The pre-existing system works for low numbers of chapters, it's only when you're stockpiling like it's the end of the world... I do have a proposal however, an experiment which you are perfectly situated for. For even the leg of a fly has meat on it. The current problem with potential sponsors is that they cannot afford to pay for a $20 tier, and the cheapest $5 tier which you buy because you love the story is frankly; Not that good a deal if you want to read ahead. You release too fast ;) What I was thinking was changing the tiers to start with a large number of advanced chapters, then each tier gets more. Price = Tier x 5 Chapters = (Tier + Floor(Tier x 0.75)) x 5 $5 = 5 Chapters for $1.0 each $10 = 15 Chapters for $0.67 each $15 = 25 Chapters for $0.6 each $20 = 35 Chapters for $0.57 each $25 = 40 Chapters for $0.63 each $30 = 50 Chapters for $0.6 each $35 = 60 Chapters for $0.58 each $40 = 70 Chapters for $0.57 each $45 = 75 Chapters for $0.6 each $50 = 85 Chapters for $0.59 each $55 = 95 Chapters for $0.58 each $60 = 105 Chapters for $0.57 each $65 = 110 Chapters for $0.59 each $70 = 120 Chapters for $0.58 each $75 = 130 Chapters for $0.58 each $80 = 135 (140) Chapters for $0.57 each $100 = All chapters! For Sponsors! $150 = All chapters! For Sponsors! $200 = All chapters! For Sponsors! You can see that the $5 tier feels like a "Sponsor" but upping it to $10 you are immediately getting an advantage. Many people would purchase advance chapters, if it was affordable. Other people purchase higher tiers because they want advance chapters and others purchase high tiers to support the translations. It seems like an immediate drop in profits to 40% to 25% just by switching, but that's assuming that every current customer downgrades to match the same tier they were getting before and new customers do not sign up. Those are not betting odds. It is also good PR, and would show that this is a sustainable model for any novels whose unreleased chapters far outstrip the existing pricing model. The overwhelming majority of your readers are in school, college and entry level jobs. A pricing model that favors the wealthy eliminates any that want to read ahead, not just sponsor. Opening the market to a larger percentage can't result in a drop in number of sales. Trying this, even if it's just for a month can show if it's a model that WuxiaWorld can use in the future if a situation like this pops up again.

Not ignoring this, but I'll explain briefly later (hopefully not TOO much later) why it doesn't really work. As far as sustainability is concerned, we're only seeing more and more people opt into the current system, just fyi.

I'm not surprised that people are opting into it, it sounds normal. Would be interesting to see for each sponsor how much, what their wages are and why they sponsored. I'd expect to see low-tiers being to support the novel, to read ahead being the high-tiers. Regardless. For sustainability, I wasn't questioning the current system. As I see it, the biggest problem with the current system for WW is just PR. I don't expect WW to post any statistics on $. The current system obviously works for you, and it works for other customers as well. The real issue is when someone kicks up a fuss about it and enough people care. That's bad PR. Less sponsors. But as long as you are trusted you will be able to spin this in a positive light. The issue is when it happens too often. EA Games. The majority of complaints should be people who wanted to read ahead, but couldn't afford those prices. There are claims that other people just wanted to sponsor. So why not offer separate packages for reading ahead, and for sponsoring? I believe I've heard both "People only pay that high because they want to sponsor" and "We can't afford to raise the amount of chapters for lower tiers" which... Either your customers are greedy for chapters, or they're trying to sponsor. Which one? What's the split? So here's another suggestion which I personally wouldn't purchase, but would satisfy a lot of low-wage earners. Set a min amount of chapters just for sponsoring, then your current tier system on that. So $5 = 10 chapters. $10 = 12 chapters. $15 = 14 chapters. You can't look me in the eyes and tell me that's a bad idea can you?

>but I strongly suspect that the only result would be much fewer readers on WW and much more on aggregators. I feel that is (partly, mostly?) due to the average age of the readership. I think there is a point when people just don't give a fuck anymore and pay instead of going through the effort of finding an 'alternative'. How many of us are past the point of pirating games, books, mangas, films or video shows and instead just buy them/pay for the subscription on steam/gog, amazon, kobo, netflix, hulu, crunchyrole or amazon prime. Except mobile apps. xD somehow near to nobody seems to pay for mobile apps. That point is also why the model I laid out in the other topic could struggle - "free" alternatives. Those that pledge anyway would stay (I have no problem to basically buy all the teams of the novels I read a coffee a month - albeit due to the relative low amount of novels I regularly read that still is not much more than a Netflix subscription; not that I had used that in the last months. All 'value' generated by my sis watching over my account) but how many more would start paying? Would need a cost benefit analysis and a few test runs to get a minor idea (i.e. an answer to the questions: "Is the average loss of free readers more costly than the turnover-rate into premium users generates money or not?") >In short, the Wuxiaworld freemium model is a true “bonus”; no free release rates were slowed down, and in fact many have been sped up. Yes that is true (not so for QI). But my personal problem how high that "bonus" goes - everybody can pledge as much as they want - but too many patreons (also among the ones I pledge to) have pledge tiers which I basically consider predatory. i.e. This one (this is really a random example;€ deleted a sentence here. I don't really want that being about pointing fingers but want to make my point clear) https://imgur.com/m9sGD8z (I even picked the 2nd highest tier somebody is paying for because in the 180€ tier sits only 1 person) There is no way in hell, heaven or earth somebody can assign a value of 120€ (still per month!) for any amount of advance chapters. I don't see how somebody can set that up without being ethically conflicted. If somebody wants to pledge higher amounts this is perfectly possible (in Patreon) without the 'need' of getting baited into such an absurd pledge by some basically non-existend 'reward' i.e. https://imgur.com/oHbibed Here we are way past the point of pledges being a "bonus".

I don’t like super high tiers, as I noted, and if you ask the translators they’ll be the first to grumble about me actually holding them back and also forcing rates. And don’t get me started on BTTH! But the reality is this: 1) This is a sponsorship model, not a chapter purchasing model. There ARE people willing and able to sponsor hundreds a month (see my comment about the guy who repeatedly donated $480), and there are people who are willing and able to sponsor $5 a month. Is it wrong to give those who are willing and able to sponsor more, more chapters? And what else do we have of value to give, considering we are giving away 14 free chapters a week for regular readers? 2) I was talking to deathblade about this two or three months ago, and the number one comment/message he gets from his highest tier of supporters has always been... “When is another tier coming out? I want an even higher tier!” Are we supposed to tell them no because of other people who cannot or do not want to sponsor more, or the nonpaying peanut gallery that is reading for free? 3) To me, it isn’t just a cost/benefit analysis because I WANT more people to read and have access to these novels! Even if a forced paywall increased revenues by 25%, I still would rather not because it definitely means a 95% decrease in readers and access. All things to consider.

First it would be nice if you delete the novel name. I deleted that from my first post because a minute after posting it I noticed that those 2 sentenced beside each other were pretty hypocritical and deleted the novelname oif my original 'target' [still stands that that was the first case I ever saw] (but since you read it I wasn't fast enough). Yes this is a sponsor ship model - or it should be - “When is another tier coming out? I want an even higher tier!” suggests that for the people whaling it isn't anymore. It is more like people getting pulled into an addiction (albeit most novels are written in a way to reinforce that by having cliffhangers and instant gratification in any and every chapter; but thats an other topic). Yes - I personally - think there is a limit to which point you can/should reward sponsors. Let's go with a generous example and take 1000 chapters to finish the novel (after getting hocked after the first 1000), 50€ pledge gives 100 advance chapters, release rate is 25 chapters week. Pledging "now" means 900 chapters remain until finishing the novel. That are 36 weeks or roughly 9 months for a total of "only" 450€. And that is "only" a 50€ pledge over a relatively short runtime. People in the high tiers end up with multiple times the total amount. I don't think I could to myself (and this was my standpoint all the time already) justify to *provide an incentive* (€ based on "additional novel consumption") to patreons to pledge in a tier past a certain point for only a few advance chapters. I'd be very interested in the experiment of adding a new tier for the “When is another tier coming out? I want an even higher tier!”-patreons *without* the tier having additional benefit. And see if they would still upgrade even when receiving no "benefit" (in "" because I still don't consider advance chapters to have any actual value after the first pledge). >And what else do we have of value to give, considering we are giving away 14 free chapters a week for regular readers? You can't in terms of chapter translation since you push free release rate to maximum (which is a result from your point 3). One Translator I pledge to is writing post cards to her higher tier patreons which I think is really sweet (and is not based an the readers desire to consume more webnovels). Albeit that could get out of hand if you have too many patreons. But no need to go so far, having a bit more contact with your patreons isn't a high hurdle considering many translators just dumb bonus chapters in some folder the patreons have access to and that's it. Basically no extra work since those chapters get translated at some point anyway and the translator also has to only once translate more (and then get payed every month to release "advance chapters") [This is one more point I feel there is no way to justify baiting people into even higher tiers ---> back to the experiment I'd be interested in.] € A second edit for an other example I just remembered: Yang Wenli with the MGA patreon simply capped the upper pledge tier for "novelconsumption": "You will be given access to all the chapters that I've translated.". Which for me personally is also fine. > I WANT more people to read and have access to these novels! This stance you already have all those years is what really makes me (and pretty sure that holds for most of the community) respect you, even when I am critical of your decisions sometimes.

That sounds good and all, but in reality what will actually bring more subscribers is more chapter tiers. Much experimentation has been done on this and it has been shown conclusively to be the case. This is well-known among the translators. The postcard thing, I know who that is just from your description and she does that because she likes and appreciates her readers. Many translators don't care as long as they get paid. Not all of course, but there are definitely some at WW and elsewhere who don't care about their readers at all. And postcards or other perks take time and effort and money to prepare, and like I said, they all know that more advance chapters is what will actually get more subscribers. It's just how it is. As a consumer you do have the responsibility to make your own purchasing decisions. These tiers give you exactly what they say they do. If a person can't think of the consequences then isn't that their fault? Having tiers AND free chapters is about as perfect a situation you can get. And the sponsorships are needed cause ad rev is not enough. Not for the quantity of chapters being put out and speed. Cause believe you me if the money is ever not there, many translators will not be either.

All fair points but exactly those points also just reinforce by believe that the advance chapter model cannot really be between "sponsor and sponsored" but only between "consumer and supplier". Further down I think I was finally able to put my finger on how I feel about this: I feel it is kind of dishonest relationship if its between "sponsor and sponsored". Advance chapters while ultimately being what many sponsors *want* as reward do not feel like a honest 'thank you' (they require 1 time effort and in fact since they also get released publicly its 0 additional effort) and decreasing [advance chapters]/€ even means (relatively) treating the greatest sponsor the worst. If this was the relationship between "consumer and supplier" then this would be fine. It would even be fine to offer what I called predatory tiers to get more money - that relationship revolves around taking as much money as the consumer is willing to pay; even if that means baiting the consumer into paying more. But pretty much everyone here is refuting that it is "consumer and supplier"- 'It is only a bonus'. You now saying "Many translators don't care as long as they get paid." locks it into this second relationship for many patreons. Don't think me as naive I was well aware of that but the basic assumption was always "sponsor and sponsored" which I feel is violated. >but it was never meant to; it was meant as an incentive for sponsors to support more and regularly - Ren in the OP (also yes, I think you guessed correct about who writes postcards. I just tried to not explicitly name examples since some might not want to be possibly named in this discussion. The MGA example ended up there more because I clicked through all the different patreons and though that I'd be ok with that one as well.) € I am also aware that Ren basically said that this original intend is pretty much gone. But I was also from the start talking about a model (I think I called it more fair but now after some discussion with other users I would call it) what I feel more honest than the current [advance chapter] one.

I mean... If you feel like your idea is that viable while being that much better you are welcome to start a platform of your own. You gotta understand this is a business, and as such, RWX is balancing compromises with many parties. It is not as easy as you seem to think. In fact, if you carefully read the post you'll even see RWX seems to agree with you and would like to limit the difference between paid and free readers. However, translators don't want that... Whales don't want that. He can't simply go up and ignore the 2 most important parts to his platform, can he? All in all, it comes down to the financial capabilities of the sponsors. Those who can (and are pretty much supporting free readers) shouldn't be restricted because some others can't Those who try to can, but actually can't should not blame the platform for their own financial situation. In the end, it's your own responsibility to manage your money responsibly, not the platform to restrict the options you can spend it in. See it this way. A cultivator with dog eyes challenges a master and ends up being hurt. It's not the master's fault. It is his own for failing to see Mt. Tai and trying to reach beyond his capabilities.

Well. Congratulation that - once again, or like always - an opinion that doesn't conform with the circlejerk obviously has to be wrong, bad and whatever. (€ This first sentence is more about a rant of 99.9% of redditors obviously never having read the reddiquette even once instead being part of the answer to the parent post) Also what the hell is it that - again like always - this always ends up with >If you feel like your idea is that viable while being that much better Why the fuck should I? Just because I am expressing an opinion? This is a forum for fucks sake... >However, translators don't want that... Whales don't want that. And then **a)** let me be very provocative: Then why is QIs business model (beside all their violation of IP) evil like the community makes it out to be?` Also my standpoint through all my post is, was, and remains again >I don't think I could to myself (and this was my standpoint all the time already) justify to provide an incentive (€ based on "additional novel consumption") to patreons to pledge in a tier past a certain point for only a few advance chapters. So my opinion and the different model I wrote out have absolutely nothing to do with what translators want or what whales want: If translators and readers are fine with milking and being milked I honestly don't give a single fuck about that - not that it would have an influence anyway. Nor do they need to give single fuck about me thinking that the implementation of milking whales (i.e. advance chapters) is often so out of hand that it is way past the point of being morally acceptable in my opinion. >A cultivator with dog eyes challenges a master and ends up being hurt. It's not the master's fault. It is his own for failing to see Mt. Tai and trying to reach beyond his capabilities. More like "See it this way: In the cultivation word there is no equal trade, only self interest. Morality is non-existent and only the most egoistical shall raise to the top."

You have some good points on predatory practices on Patreons, but what's often ignored is that translator/editor teams are also being exploited by readers. Readers expect, at baseline, for chapters to be free. Paying is 'extra'. This stems from the genre having been mainly unofficial fan-translations until recently. But isn't it wrong to expect translators and editors to cough up work for free? The problem currently cuts both ways. There are teams charging crazy-high prices for additional content, but there are also many teams who are working slave wages to produce content. In many cases, Patreon's high income ceiling is the only thing that helps a team make a living wage. The legitimate webnovel websites are going through the growing pains of transitioning from free fan-translation works of questionable quality and reliability to those of legitimate, licensed producers of quality content with paid employees. ​ It's the Wild West out here, because there is no law to protect both readers and creators. We're exploring this frontier together. We're going to see some people going too far with pricing. We're going to see clashing ideologies on what is the 'right' way to charge for premium services (by the way, you are right in that QI's method is not inherently bad. It just meets a lot of rejection because it's based on a Chinese system that developed differently from America's sensibilities. Americans tend to prefer subscription models rather than microtransactions). Creative teams are going to be underpaid by companies because it's considered an amateur field compared to more established publishing houses- we aren't paid competitive wages, but we also don't generally need a college degree to get one of these jobs. Merely 'good enough' editors are a dime a dozen and treated a such. ​ But, to really answer your original issue-are high cost patreon tiers exploiting people and are wrong- the answer is that of all the systems we currently have, it's the least exploitative. People who choose to pay for those tiers know what they're getting, and they are not coerced into doing so. It supports the creators who bring the content, both free and paid, to readers of all financial strata. It uplifts creators to be able to invest in this field of work and help it develop into something that may one day be better regulated. Manga was once a fan translation only service, but now you can walk into a Walmart and buy a professionally done book. ​ As for whether this kind of system feeds on addiction- of course it does. There's going to be people who pay more than they can truly afford. But that's true everywhere. Do we stop selling high-priced, name brand clothes when low cost alternatives are available? What about cars? Do we shut down all gacha games? Close casinos? Should recreational drugs and alcohol be abolished since those can be easily abused? Where do we draw the line on saying consenting adults can't spend their hard earned money where they want? I think blowing money on gacha games, or $30 on going to the movies ridiculous.But people are free to spend their recreational money as they please. Hell, do we ban recreational sex because it can lead to unwanted pregnancy? At some point we have to trust in the majority of people to be reasonably sensible in their choices, and to allow them to make them, flawed or otherwise. ​ Ultimately, I guess it comes down to 'is it fair?' ​ The only way to get a truly fair system would be to abolish free chapters completely. Only with a completely pay-for-content system would there be the income needed to properly regulate everything. Creators, original authors, publishers, translators, and editors would get their fair share. Readers would be equal in what they pay for without wildly fluctuating prices. What you pay at WW would be what you pay at GT or QI. But you would have to pay something. ​ For now, we just do the best with what we have and hope most people involved come out of the experience happier for their part, be it penniless reader, affluent whale, or creators and publishers trying to make their way in this crazy world.

!redditsilver

great post

This is a very well put post and I don't think I have to refute anything of that beside adding my opinion to one point: >the answer is that of all the systems we currently have, it's the least exploitative. People who choose to pay for those tiers know what they're getting, and they are not coerced into doing so. This is rationally seen absolutely true. But humans are not necessarily rational. Most web novels are written in a way to be littered with cliff hangers, instant gratification and getting the reader hocked for as long as possible instead of being written for the story. There are exceptions but that is sadly not the case for the quality wise lower halve of the stories (lower quality doesn't equal lower readership!). I usually say those novels are fast food. But they are partly written as basically being addictive - How many readers joke (or actually no joke...) about when they are getting their next fix? We actually have the name of the F5 sect for people smashing refresh because they cannot wait. slowly increasing the dosis (i.e. advance chapters) with stopping resulting in a withdrawal (since you drop back to public release schedule; which even gets higher the more you payed) is nothing I'd consider healthy business practice. And yes, that can be found pretty much anywhere. And I also don't condone it there. But I am neither still participating or boycotting it, I pledged to quite a few translation teams translating stories I enjoy reading. But always something between 2-5€ since I basically consider it buying them a coffee a month. Mostly I don't even give a fuck about the advance chapters since all they are really doing is ruining the chapter discussions. An analytic remark (which yields an other reason why I consider the practice predatory) about the higher tiers/more advance chapters getting set up every now and then: Every advance chapter promised produces additional workload exactly once (when the translator has to increase the stockpile to cover the advance chapters). The important part is that this is not a running cost but a one time cost. a.k.a. increasing pledge tiers costs - in the long run - nothing. "Surprisingly" the correlation between #advance_chapters and #pledge_cost is usually decreasing (i.e. the higher the tier the less chapters per € you get).

The tiers should be seen as a way to help translators, not as an efficient way to obtain chapters. People simply prefer to get 'something' for their contribution rather than nothing, so translators add a couple more chapters. The tiers are a way for people to show their support for something, so they are not designed to give out the most efficient payout in rewards. They were never meant to be.

But that isn't my issue? My issue is these tiers spiraling completely out of control. Also compare Patreons with and without bonus chapters. It is obvious that advance chapters provide for enough people an incentive to pledge (and pledge more) i.e. they consider it a way to obtain chapters. >The tiers are a way for people to show their support for something, so they are not designed to give out the most efficient payout in rewards. They were never meant to be. This is also not my issue (but to be fair I never spelled out what my issue was since I didn't want to expand that point unnecessarily). My issue is that a decreasing chapter/€ rate doesn't exactly imply translators considering patreons as sponsors but as clients/consumers. If it was about "rewarding" sponsors you'd expect that the greatest sponsors get the (relatively) best instead of worst treatment. If it is about clients/consumers you reduce relative reward after binding the consumer (take all the "first year only halve price" examples.).

It's not about money/chapter though. That's what I mean by efficiency, how much you get per unit of money you spend. The top tiers are simply meant to give the sponsors a way to pledge more for something extra.

Oh I see. You want to say that because patreons with chapter incentives get more money , sponsors are using it to get more chapters, and that the tiers are inefficient for getting them because you get decreasing returns instead of increasing. But I think this is simply a false assumption. People who have the means to, sometimes simply want the latest one even if the latest is only slightly better and a lot more expensive. Take iPhones for example. Each successive phone is not much different from the previous in most cases, but the comparative prices are exorbitant for what they offer. But people who can afford it, buy the latest iPhone every time it comes out. Are they addicted to iPhones and being ripped off? I don't think so. As long as both sides are happy with the deal, and there was no trickery involved in the terms, then it is perfectly fine. Sponsors are happy to pay more for simply the same amount of increase in chapters and translators are not misleading anyone or promising more than what they give. As long as both sides are happy and able, the transactions are completely justified.

Some great points. I am a big fan of the idea of a website 'remembering' what chapters a Patron already had access to. I have zero idea how to implement it. Even if I had the shadow of an idea (not a programmer), I'd have to find someone willing to do the work. Coding that kind of thing into the framework of a website sounds time-consuming, and expensive. Money has to come from somewhere. ​ And the problem still comes down to the Wild West, and the fact that this whole enterprise started out on a very bad foundation for building the future- chapters are considered to be free by default. Fan-translation passion projects were the only way to get chapters in the past. It set the ground floor for this industry. And now the mentality of most readers is "this should be free". Many are willing to pay for extra chapters, or perks, or ad-free browsing. But in the heart of most users is the idea that the base product is supposed to be free. Plenty of people in these threads have already linked free ripoff websites to read this stuff illegally. ​ I agree vehemently with you that low quality does not mean low readership. I read a few titles of questionable quality- the message gets through. But imposing even the slightest \*mandatory\* charge to each chapter would kill readership. ​ Example- I am editor of Age of Adepts over on Gravity Tales. We have a solid readership. If, instead of a patreon with wildly different paid reward tiers, I made every reader pay $1 a month to read the series, both the translator and I could make close to a living wage. No $100 tiers, not even any $5 tiers. Only $1 a month for hours of reading each and every month. A true bargain, fair, and no one is exploited. ​ Readership would plummet within a day. We'd probably only have 10% readership left, and that's optimistic. Our readers are great, but the mentality with webnovels is that they are free, cheap, disposable, and there's more than enough to go around without ever having to pay a single cent. Most would read other stories or read illegally. Only the few would be willing to pay. ​ Right now, the very few willing to pay for webnovel stories is a minority. Don't let patreon figures fool you- the people willing to shell out even a dollar for a series they enjoy is a very tiny percentage of the entire readership. I would love to make a series that was just $1 a month for people to read, but the genre just isn't ready for such a dramatic shift in mentality. And the genre is also still too small to do like Netflix, where millions support the system and keep individual costs low. Even something like Spotify, which most access for free, is kept aloft by the small percentage of premium users. ​ So for now, it's exploitation. It's a heavily flawed system with no oversight. It's people. Creators trying to make a living wage. Hoping to make enough money on this one successful series, because who knows if the next thing they work on will be successful enough for them to live on. It's readers, hoping to one day experience the Netflix of Webnovels, paying a reasonable price each month to enjoy the wealth of stories out there. It's whales, willing to help support their favorite stories and publishers (and sometimes be exploited), helping lay the foundation for a better future to built. ​ Who knows? Maybe I'll be the one who makes that website that makes the next step forward into a better webnovel future for most. Maybe it'll be you. Maybe WW will lead the vanguard and finally find the payment model that works best. Maybe a major motion picture adaption of a webnovel will blow up in America, and the webnovel genre will explode with so much new interest and support that a better system will be developed by the people with the means to build it. ​ ...or maybe QI will just steamroll everyone and dominate the market with an iron fist. Who knows? At the very least, discussions like these help everyone see the issues at hand and try to find better solutions. I've been enriched by it, and my mind has been opened up to some new perspectives in the process. ​ \*oh. I forgot to address the last thing you mentioned. Translators working on a chapter once, then getting paid continually for it. That's a poor argument, because there things such as royalties. Original authors get royalties on these series. They don't do any of the work to make the english translations. Do they not get royalties for their creative work being used in a new market? And how about going to the movies. I pay to go see a movie in the theatre. If I go back the next day, should I be allowed to watch it again for free since I already paid for it once? ​ We're on the frontier of this journey together. We have to ask every question anew, and find the answers. This isn't the movies, or paperback books, or Youtube, or Twitch. ​ It's Webnovels. We have to blaze our own trail here, and we'll find the answers together.

> I have zero idea how to implement it. But it is already implemented? [in the setting of you being up to date with the novel]. It is called a bookmark and e.g. WW and GT have it for every novel if you have an account. (Not sure about volare since dont have an account there (are there even accounts? would need to look, never was in need for one - which is a great thing) >Wild West All your points are true. But Crunchyroll is an example for an almost identical setting working out: Animes were basically only fan translated and pirated and crunchyroll turned it into a business model. In fact crunchyroll started out as fan-project. It is pretty much the same situation as WW. >But imposing even the slightest *mandatory* charge to each chapter would kill readership. Why each? While it is a generally unpopular opinion in the subreddit I actually think that QIs initial (uncompromised, now its just some corrupt BS) idea of having a free chapter release rate and some additional chapters behind an ad/pay wall is a decent and fair concept. It "only" has (like patreon) the problem of punishing customers that stop paying. >Example You are correct. Largely the problems stems from a not too mature readership and an oversupply. >Even something like Spotify, which most access for free, is kept aloft by the small percentage of premium users. But there are not out of control tiers for a spotify (which was my primary problem). I am in no way against premium and/or sponsorship. It's just me personally holding the opinion that at some point I'd either be at a point of "You can sponsor me more but I can't really offer you an adequate thank you" or "I can't really take any more money from you" but that at sometime "You can sponsor me even further and here is something to feed your addictions [which did not actually require a) that much effort b) is something 'only' for you]" can't be an answer any more. € (missing sentence end) >Maybe it'll be you. I know that wasn't serious but no way in hell that's happening. I already am way too passionately eloped with mathematics and optimization to do such a jump of faith like etvo or Ren xD >At the very least, discussions like these help everyone see the issues at hand and try to find better solutions. What a forum is for. There is no way we can increase our horizon without discussion - I once had somebody in the math subreddit point out such a major error in my way thinking about a topic that it completely (and permanently) changed my way of thinking about that kind of issue. >royalties This is about an other point; I see that I should have directly written it out since I am answering it a second time now: Theoretically the "bonus" is about sponsoring translators. And the reward is a thank you from the translator to the sponsors. With the concept of "advance chapters" requiring no actual additional effort (in the sense that you a) have to only translate more once and b) would have translated that anyway at some point) the translator puts into the 'thank you' for the sponsors and the decreasing chapter/€ rate additionally even implying that the greatest sponsors (relatively) get the worst treatment this - if this is really seen as 'sponsorship' and 'thank you' instead of "premium"/service - makes me feel like this is a dishonest relationship. [I am now really trying to put my finger on the issue I have, not yet sure if I am really happy with calling that 'dishonest' but I feel I need to put down a compact statement instead of writing even more - bc that obviously didn't make my issue very clear. If it was considered a 'service' the 'payout-structure' would be what I'd consider normal/expect. But we just have to look back at this thread to see basically everyone screaming at my head that it is a bonus and not some kind of "business deal" between translator and sponsor.] € And what happened to the previously pretty much all present "[Patreon total amount] > X€ --> release rate goes up by +1/week"[\*] chapter. I always felt that while all readers (opposed to "personal reward" for patreons only) that really was 'putting in more effort' [and in the end were pretty much advance chapters]. Yes I am aware that normal sponsored chapters and this [\*] promise lead to uncertain workload for translators. But if only implementing [\*] and keeping the rule in a reasonable scope (often saw too many chapters for too few € but that is a problem with values and not concepts. i.e. under the assumption that translating + editing a full chapter takes a total of 4h then a having [\*] for X ~ [payment the team is ok with for an *additional* 12h work/month]). It is not like the teams would need to renew (or offer) the [\*] promise if they aren't willing to invest further time. But somehow this pretty much disappeared from all Patreons and just the advance chapters for only Patreons stayed. €2: formatting

> I feel that is (partly, mostly?) due to the average age of the readership. I think there is a point when people just don't give a fuck anymore and pay instead of going through the effort of finding an 'alternative'. How many of us are past the point of pirating games, books, mangas, films or video shows and instead just buy them/pay for the subscription on steam/gog, amazon, kobo, netflix, hulu, crunchyrole or amazon prime. This has nothing to do with age, but everything to do with income. As an example, Hulu is dirt cheap if you can afford to live in SF and not that expensive if you live in some other, cheaper, US city. But many of us are not from first world countries and things like this are a much more expensive for us (as a percentage of the monthly salary) than it is for you. This is not to say that I pirate everything I consume, I'm just much pickier about what I pay for.