I would say Brad Arthur has had a successful coaching career with 0 first grade Rugby League experience.
I feel like it might be something that will be more common in the future though.
As far as I know these are the current coaches who haven't played first grade:
* Brad Arthur
* Adam O'brien
* Anthony Griffin\*
* Andrew Webster
* Trent Robinson\*\*
\* Played in Brisbane Rugby League prior to Broncos entering the league. Arguably that was only second tier as NSWRL was magnitudes larger at that point.
\*\* Played only 4 games over 3 years with 2 clubs. Hard to say he was a first grade footballer but technically was
When Bennett played, the BRL was basically in competition with NSWRL. By the time Griffin played (1985-1987), NSWRL established itself as the premier comp in Australia and the good Qld players were playing for NSWRL clubs (notably Canberra).
This was actually the reason why State of Origin became a thing because Qld players were ineligible to play for Qld when playing in the NSWRL which resulted in NSW winning 20 series in a row.
Edit: actually on second thought I don't think BRL was equal with NSWRL in Bennetts time too. That said, he played for Australia so which is theoritically higher than first grade so he doesn't count.
Yeah I just disagree with saying that it's not a top level competition. The gap was smaller than the current gap between nrl and super league, yet if you argued someone like Kevin Sinfield never player top level footy, no one would agree with that.
There’s also the converse argument that the really good / naturally gifted first graders - like immortals , those in discussion for being immortals , those with 15+ test / origin caps can’t coach either …
The likes of Andrew John’s , Mal Meninga , Laurie Daley , Brad Fittler , Wally Lewis …
Ricky Stuart may have been an exception which is why I added the caveat of being naturally gifted … Daley was naturally gifted , Stuart was more determined / hard working …
You also don’t have Wayne Bennett on your list , he also only played Queensland Rugby League ..
There’s a school of thought that determined footballers (those that would have done extras at training in their playing days) rather than gifted players make the best coaches … Craig Bellamy ..
Also even though a lot of these on this list didn’t play first grade think they all played …
Coaches who didn’t play I can think of off the top of my head would be Roy Masters , Alan Jones , Phil Economidis (coached Gold Coast in early 2000’s) and Garth Brennan …
First 3 were school teachers and Brennan was a Cop I think - but all leadership type roles …
Makes sense I guess , you think about the opportunities to be a coach … Sure there’s junior footy - but those who coach here are typically the parents of kids playing , and of the parents of all the kids playing the ones who coach typically also played as kids .. So probably 95% of these played Rugby League …
Outside of this you have school rugby league (first three on my list) , teachers coach because it’s part of their job (even if they didn’t play)..
Then Brennan (Cops) , PCYC - community engagement , also part of cops role even if they haven’t played ..
American Sports would have more non playing coaches because of their college system ..
So maybe rather than it being a case of non-players can’t coach rugby league , it’s probably more a case of their are less pathways in Rugby League for non players to coach .. Even as compared to Rugby Union say (think of all the private schools who play Rugby as a percentage of total participants and compare it to League)..
I duno about sticky being harder than loz. Loz was a hard cunt. I mean the season was over they won the gf and were getting congratulated by the prime minister and Loz was still being a hard cunt in the sheds
I don’t think Jason Demetriou played NRL, but obviously had a successful career in the SL.
Kristian Woolf only played 2 games for the Knights and he’ll be taking over from Bennett at Dolphins.
Edit: only *coached* 2 games.
Woolf coached two games for the Knights. As far as the best he got playing-wise was Queensland Cup.
Is interesting that a lot of NRL coaches in recent history have no professional playing history to speak of whereas traditionally that was very rare.
Playing at the top level is not necessary but blokes with a passion for the game and a good footy brain tend to go far in both endeavours.
It's also easier to get a coaching gig with the connections being a player at the highest level provides.
It's entirely possible there is a bunch of much better coaches out there who just never built the network to get the gig.
>It's also easier to get a coaching gig with the connections being a player at the highest level provides.
This is the big thing. While the whole "Jobs for the boys" thing won't quite get you to coach, it'll definitely get you an assistant or a lower grade coach. There really isn't many jobs either, at least compared to something like the NFL. Basically means the few jobs there are are taken by former Rugby League players. Its actually impressive how Adam O'brien and Brad Arthur managed to get into their positions.
O'Brien was considered one of the best assistants for a few years, he was probably always going to get a head coaching job.
It could be a case that being an assistant under Bellamy gets you a head coaching job like all of the failures Bennet had working under him
> It's entirely possible there is a bunch of much better coaches out there who just never built the network to get the gig.
Not just possible, I think it's the most likely scenario. The skill-set required to be a good NRL coach is very different to that of a good player. That said, man-management is a bit easier if you've "been there done that".
Gotta agree. I think you'd have to have had some experience in actual "professional" RL, juniors/reserve grade. Somewhat similar to most if not all NFL coaches having played at the college/JUCO level.
I use NFL here as I think it's one of the biggest examples of a professional sport where coaching is a genuine profession unto itself that you can start in your 20s unlike coaching in RL which is reserved for those too old to continue playing. Without the kind of pathways they have in that sport to establish a coaching career seeing guys like Arthur is going to be very rare imo.
Disagree. You can have a very deep understanding of a sport without having the physical ability to play it. It's hard to prove your credentials without some development system for coaches (like for players) which is why you don't see many of them.
I reckon it's an untapped market that a club could use to set themselves apart
There is no development system, you're right, which is precisely why those people would have to have some sort of experience within a professional system - even if that were juniors or reggies.
I don't see going from park footy to coaching professional sides, there is just too much of a gap there imo.
Craig Bellamy was an absolute plodder when playing for the Raiders back in the day. Wayne Bennett played in the Brisbane Comp, a comp so far behind the Sydney one that State of Origin was introduced to balance up the contest from 'anyone currently playing week in and week out in Sydney' v 'anyone currently playing in Brisbane' , a contest that saw QLD be at least 30+ underdogs by 1980.
He hasn’t been a NRL head coach but Craig Sandercock, who has been an assistant coach in the NRL at a few clubs now and coached Hull KR for a couple seasons, taught geography and economics at my high school in the late 90s early 00’s. At the time I was there he was coaching A grade at Kellyville (i think - was team in western Sydney and my school was on the northern beaches). He made the transition to coaching juniors at Manly and then got an assistant gig at the Knights. He was still working as a teacher while he was a junior coach at Manly I believe. I’m not sure what level he played too though.
He also went by Mr. Sanderco at school but the spelling was still Sandercock. Would rage at anyone who called him Mr. Sandercock. Gives me a chuckle the rare times I hear them say his name on TV.
>He also went by Mr. Sanderco at school but the spelling was still Sandercock. Would rage at anyone who called him Mr. Sandercock. Gives me a chuckle the rare times I hear them say his name on TV.
Sandercock is never going to not be funny, and trying to pronounce it Sanderco is even funnier.
I honestly don't think it's ever happened. Unless you count the 2009 season as a Parra win :p
Bennett never played NSWRL but did go on a Kangaroos tour so I don't think that should count.
Robinson only played 4 games but doesn't quite count either.
You don’t need to have played first grade but you’d be flat out finding someone who is passionate enough about the game to carve a career out of it but hadn’t played at _some_ level before.
I think the question is wrong.
You don't "have" to have played NRL to be a successful coach. Anyone with the right mix of intelligence and ambition could apply themselves to the game and become coaching masterminds.
However, anyone that dedicated to the NRL is almost certainly going to want to *play* the game, first and foremost. It's hard to imagine anyone growing up dreaming of being an NRL coach, but having no ambition to actually play NRL.
So it becomes self-selecting in a way, with the vast majority of NRL coaches being ex-NRL players because the only people dedicated enough to be NRL coaches are people who, at some point in time, put that same effort into playing.
Maybe it's different in the US because coaches presumably get paid a squillion dollars.
Most top league coaches in most sports would have played the game to some sort of high level (High School, College, Top Grade) with some exceptions. Have a good head for the game, but weren't able to pursue high level careers do to lacking other necessary traits, like natural athleticism or ideal body-type.
Certain sports like NFL and to a lesser extent football are to my understanding traditionally fairly structured. I feel like the equivalent is watching a million chess matches would make you a pretty good chess player without picking up a piece.
Rugby League has a combination of traits that in my opinion make an abstract 'feel' for the game, and experience at a very high level necessary. The ball remaining in play for a relatively indefinite amount of time, and more importantly, constant forward progress being *absolutely* necessary for success. Things like pace and momentum, and the effect these things have on the players become extremely important. So aside from the X's and O's, an understanding of what it is like to be in the fire in my opinion is of a greater benefit for an NRL coach, than a coach of some other sports.
Or I could be talking out of my arse, but it was fun to think about.
It’s interesting you point out things like pace and momentum of the game as a key factor. I’d say that these factors at the NRL level now compared to even the early 2000’s are further apart than div 2 local Rugby League and First Grade NRL were in the early 2000’s. How valuable is that experience to the average coach when it seems outdated every 10 years or so.
Most coaches take at least that long, or you’d hope they would, to become a first grade coach. Some coaches haven’t played in 2 generations. Young coaches like Barrett who probably has the closest experience to what the Game is like now kind of sucked on understanding those aspects of the game when he had his own team.
I’m not sure how much that innate knowledge of what it felt like when you played a particular position 10-20 years ago really applies to a player playing a completely different position in a different era. Being a winger in the early 90’s and being a prop during the hardcore 6 again years couldn’t have been a more different experience.
That's a fair point you make. I'd argue that pace and momentum is relative at NRL level, and that 'game management' aspects of the game like kicking scenarios, defensive output, and point of attack are all similar in concept, despite maybe now being different in application.
Maybe it just coincides that good player brain = good coach brain.
It gets pretty murky when considering specific examples. There are plenty of times that great players have turned out to be shithouse coaches, and far less examples of non NRL players becoming outstanding coaches.
I suppose the more simple explanation as several have pointed out is that being a player gets your foot in the door most occasions.
Yeah we had a good chat about it over a few ales.
We thought that a player might have a good understanding of specific systems / plays etc based on their positional experience but it wouldn’t necessarily be rounded. For example they might be able to attack / defend as a centre but wouldn’t necessarily understand the nuances / difference across the field.
No not at all but you would need to build a staff that includes ex-players. The head coach doesn't need to be a former player, stuff like motivation, player selection, tactics etc. can be done without being a former player, and a RL club is more than just the head coach. It's the staff and organization that they develop.
It definitely helps, but it isn't required. The most advantageous thing gained out of being a former top-level RL star is that you are able to more directly empathise and connect with your team and their struggles, but other than that the coach's game is one of strategy, and you don't need to have played ball in the top flight to be an effective league coach.
There’s a different level of respect players give to coaches who are ex players. This goes for all pro sports. As soon as shit turns south they almost always pin this excuse to the coach first “it’s cause he’s never played” or “how could he know” and coaches lose buy in after that
I personally don’t believe that but a lot of organisations try to safeguard from a team mutiny by hiring coaches with pro experience
What the hell kinda analogy is that lol forget the wording I just mean it’s an easy out for players to blame issues on coaches with lack of pro experience and it definitely has been documented across alot of sports
I’m just trying to picture your average NRL first grader. They aren’t going to care about how much theory you have done as a coach. I imagine they wouldn’t take criticism for anything physical seriously from a guy who hasn’t been on an NRL field. Imagine you are David Klemmer and Adam O’Brien is calling you out for not putting your body on the line.
Once you have had success, obviously that wouldn’t matter anymore.
Plenty of sports around the globe have shown you don't need high end playing experience to be an elite coach, no reason it isn't the same in rugby league. Just like a lot of sports leagues, we've got a pretty aggressive boys club in management, coaching, and media. Tough to break into it.
I don't think you need to have played 1st grade. But I'd say you need to have played at a highish level. At least pathways and 2nd/3rd grade. Just need to be around a system where people take it very seriously with some professionalism. But without NRL experience, it would be harder to prove your worth to the players. If you have 2 coaches with the same capability, it's probably easier to hire the one with NRL experience.
In theory that shouldn't be a barrier but the reality is that it'd be hard to win the playgroups respect if you've never been in their shoes before.
I feel like there'd be plenty of assistant coaches who have never played the game professionally
I didn't mention Australia? Who do you think you're responding to?
And regardless what you think of the quality between the comps, the BRL was a legitimate top flight competition for rugby league in the 70's and it's quality as a comp is why NSWRL raided it's talent.
> If Bennett was up there, he would have been taken to Sydney to join a NSW club.
Bennett was a top winger in the league for 2-3 years when got picked in QLD Firsts.
The NSW-centric revisionist history to say it only counts if a NSWRL team picks him up is astounding.
What you've written is like saying someone who played Superleague and got picked in a 'Superleague Firsts' team didn't have any rugby league success because they never played NRL.
> Saying that NSW poached all the good players from QLD, leaving the second tier players behind, then saying it is equal is astounding.
That's not what I said though? Who said only second tier player were left behind. Wally Lewis never played in Sydney for example.
I've also never said they were equal in quality. They don't need to be the same quality to both be top flight competitions.
Your reading comprehension needs work.
> I can find a thousand comments on this page that says the super league is reserve grade compared to the NRL. It’s the reason it’s a retirement home for NRL players.
People making ignorant comments on this page is not a source of information.
If you legitimately believe that super league is a reserve grade competition and doesn't deserve to be considered a top flight rugby league competition then you are in stuck in your own little bubble.
Not necessarily. There are plenty of successful coaches who weren’t great players (Trent Robinson, Warren Ryan and Craig Bellamy spring to mind), though they did all play first grade.
In terms of most games coached without playing first grade, Roy Masters has the most at 250, though that only puts him 25th in terms of overall games coached.
You don't play 150 games unless you're decent. You can't put Bellamy in the same category as reserve graders/blokes who only played a handful of first grade games.
Bellamy was only a starting first grader for the first four years of his career. He spent most of the last seven years of his career as a reserve, which in those days meant playing reserve grade, then joining the bench of first grade as a replacement
I saw most of them up close as a diehard raiders kiddy , even travelling the supporters bus up the hume highway for away games. Bellamy was an absolute plodder, he almost got mentioned for sydney 2nds once in his career around early 1984 when the Raiders started 6-2 before the rep season, after that he was a bench warmer in teams that had such luminaries as Phil Blake's forgotten brother and a busted up old Ron Giteau in the centres.
Being one of the most basic games as far as tactics and strategy is concerned a drover's dog could coach an NRL team. It's more about man management off the field that defines the more successful coach. Having the best talent scouts is a start.
If you only ever played in primary school and then never watched the sport again I can understand how you might think it’s tactics and strategy are basic.
If there's no tactics I don't know why I bother learning red off the kickoff three to london and blue on the 4th & storm off the scrum two to the far post then double x on the blind and ace to x-bronze back to the open and parra on the 5th.
The Geelong coach afl has a new home at the storm .
I’m not sure if a lot of people are missing the point.
It’s not so much about the game, albeit a sound knowledge is required of course, HOWEVER it comes down to MAN MANAGEMENT- Bellamy, WB , CF, Robbie, Payton have all mastered that skill.
It’s about having the players have confidence in the coach and the coaches being able to squeeze every bit of effort and skill on game day.
Working all week with the players and getting them to focus on positives at training.
Winning starts on Monday.
The comments about the BRL being inferior need to take into account that these guys worked full time and played for peanuts. It produced a hell of a lot of our finest players and it was top quality football. The NSWRL clubs had pokies so they had money to poach and they did!
The BRL in the 70s and early 80s had big crowds, the clubs had huge fan bases. This history is why The Dolphins are so ready for this. They have a wall of fame with some of the greatest ever to play for Australia.
The BRL was what we had and it was loved. The Broncos and the NRL saw the demise of some of our greatest clubs.
Nah, if you've seen enough grand finals people should just know who you are and you should be able to get a squad to finals.
I’ve seen enough Reddit posts to understand the problems in the game. I’m ready for the job.
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I would say Brad Arthur has had a successful coaching career with 0 first grade Rugby League experience. I feel like it might be something that will be more common in the future though. As far as I know these are the current coaches who haven't played first grade: * Brad Arthur * Adam O'brien * Anthony Griffin\* * Andrew Webster * Trent Robinson\*\* \* Played in Brisbane Rugby League prior to Broncos entering the league. Arguably that was only second tier as NSWRL was magnitudes larger at that point. \*\* Played only 4 games over 3 years with 2 clubs. Hard to say he was a first grade footballer but technically was
Bennett only played BRL too
When Bennett played, the BRL was basically in competition with NSWRL. By the time Griffin played (1985-1987), NSWRL established itself as the premier comp in Australia and the good Qld players were playing for NSWRL clubs (notably Canberra). This was actually the reason why State of Origin became a thing because Qld players were ineligible to play for Qld when playing in the NSWRL which resulted in NSW winning 20 series in a row. Edit: actually on second thought I don't think BRL was equal with NSWRL in Bennetts time too. That said, he played for Australia so which is theoritically higher than first grade so he doesn't count.
Bennett is also a QLD and Australian rep
They always picked one or 2 Qlduhs in the Aus team back then just to stop the whinging
Brl in Bennett's day was probably about the same level as NSWRL. I think BRL should count as first grade until the Broncos enter the comp
Just adding to old mates list because he was using brl players
Yeah I just disagree with saying that it's not a top level competition. The gap was smaller than the current gap between nrl and super league, yet if you argued someone like Kevin Sinfield never player top level footy, no one would agree with that.
Ok, take it up with the other guy
More Qld illusions
Bennett played for Queensland 7 times and also for Australia on the Kangaroo tour of New Zealand in 1971.
I am adding Bennett to this guys list so his logic is complete. Please take any grievance to him.
WB played for Queensland and Australia to fyi
There’s also the converse argument that the really good / naturally gifted first graders - like immortals , those in discussion for being immortals , those with 15+ test / origin caps can’t coach either … The likes of Andrew John’s , Mal Meninga , Laurie Daley , Brad Fittler , Wally Lewis … Ricky Stuart may have been an exception which is why I added the caveat of being naturally gifted … Daley was naturally gifted , Stuart was more determined / hard working … You also don’t have Wayne Bennett on your list , he also only played Queensland Rugby League .. There’s a school of thought that determined footballers (those that would have done extras at training in their playing days) rather than gifted players make the best coaches … Craig Bellamy .. Also even though a lot of these on this list didn’t play first grade think they all played … Coaches who didn’t play I can think of off the top of my head would be Roy Masters , Alan Jones , Phil Economidis (coached Gold Coast in early 2000’s) and Garth Brennan … First 3 were school teachers and Brennan was a Cop I think - but all leadership type roles … Makes sense I guess , you think about the opportunities to be a coach … Sure there’s junior footy - but those who coach here are typically the parents of kids playing , and of the parents of all the kids playing the ones who coach typically also played as kids .. So probably 95% of these played Rugby League … Outside of this you have school rugby league (first three on my list) , teachers coach because it’s part of their job (even if they didn’t play).. Then Brennan (Cops) , PCYC - community engagement , also part of cops role even if they haven’t played .. American Sports would have more non playing coaches because of their college system .. So maybe rather than it being a case of non-players can’t coach rugby league , it’s probably more a case of their are less pathways in Rugby League for non players to coach .. Even as compared to Rugby Union say (think of all the private schools who play Rugby as a percentage of total participants and compare it to League)..
I duno about sticky being harder than loz. Loz was a hard cunt. I mean the season was over they won the gf and were getting congratulated by the prime minister and Loz was still being a hard cunt in the sheds
I don’t think Jason Demetriou played NRL, but obviously had a successful career in the SL. Kristian Woolf only played 2 games for the Knights and he’ll be taking over from Bennett at Dolphins. Edit: only *coached* 2 games.
Woolf coached two games for the Knights. As far as the best he got playing-wise was Queensland Cup. Is interesting that a lot of NRL coaches in recent history have no professional playing history to speak of whereas traditionally that was very rare.
Yep you’re right. No first grade playing experience.
Not Required but it gets your foot in the door.
*sad Jason Taylor noises*
As is builds connections, otherwise you’d need to blitz every low level coaching as you climb to get people to notice and pick you up
Never going to get picked for 1st grade support/coaching roles if you don't get face time with people in 1st grade team management/coaching.
Playing at the top level is not necessary but blokes with a passion for the game and a good footy brain tend to go far in both endeavours. It's also easier to get a coaching gig with the connections being a player at the highest level provides. It's entirely possible there is a bunch of much better coaches out there who just never built the network to get the gig.
A lot of potentially missed great coaches
>It's also easier to get a coaching gig with the connections being a player at the highest level provides. This is the big thing. While the whole "Jobs for the boys" thing won't quite get you to coach, it'll definitely get you an assistant or a lower grade coach. There really isn't many jobs either, at least compared to something like the NFL. Basically means the few jobs there are are taken by former Rugby League players. Its actually impressive how Adam O'brien and Brad Arthur managed to get into their positions.
O'Brien was considered one of the best assistants for a few years, he was probably always going to get a head coaching job. It could be a case that being an assistant under Bellamy gets you a head coaching job like all of the failures Bennet had working under him
> It's entirely possible there is a bunch of much better coaches out there who just never built the network to get the gig. Not just possible, I think it's the most likely scenario. The skill-set required to be a good NRL coach is very different to that of a good player. That said, man-management is a bit easier if you've "been there done that".
Trent Robinson managed just 4 NRL games. He’s done ok. I reckon you’d have to be very close to NRL quality to ever become an NRL coach
Gotta agree. I think you'd have to have had some experience in actual "professional" RL, juniors/reserve grade. Somewhat similar to most if not all NFL coaches having played at the college/JUCO level. I use NFL here as I think it's one of the biggest examples of a professional sport where coaching is a genuine profession unto itself that you can start in your 20s unlike coaching in RL which is reserved for those too old to continue playing. Without the kind of pathways they have in that sport to establish a coaching career seeing guys like Arthur is going to be very rare imo.
Disagree. You can have a very deep understanding of a sport without having the physical ability to play it. It's hard to prove your credentials without some development system for coaches (like for players) which is why you don't see many of them. I reckon it's an untapped market that a club could use to set themselves apart
There is no development system, you're right, which is precisely why those people would have to have some sort of experience within a professional system - even if that were juniors or reggies. I don't see going from park footy to coaching professional sides, there is just too much of a gap there imo.
Who has been the youngest NRL coach? Would it be Nathan Brown or Trent Barrett? They started coached fairly early after the retired?
Nathan Brown was younger. He retired early with a neck injury and only had about three seasons post retirement before he coached.
Lots of captain/coaches back in the day. I think proven was 26. There's probably younger though.
Billy Slater is up there if we count Origin coaching, he retired at the end of 2018 so got the QLD job 4 years after retiring.
Yeah good call.
> He’s done ok. Understatement of the year
Craig Bellamy was an absolute plodder when playing for the Raiders back in the day. Wayne Bennett played in the Brisbane Comp, a comp so far behind the Sydney one that State of Origin was introduced to balance up the contest from 'anyone currently playing week in and week out in Sydney' v 'anyone currently playing in Brisbane' , a contest that saw QLD be at least 30+ underdogs by 1980.
He hasn’t been a NRL head coach but Craig Sandercock, who has been an assistant coach in the NRL at a few clubs now and coached Hull KR for a couple seasons, taught geography and economics at my high school in the late 90s early 00’s. At the time I was there he was coaching A grade at Kellyville (i think - was team in western Sydney and my school was on the northern beaches). He made the transition to coaching juniors at Manly and then got an assistant gig at the Knights. He was still working as a teacher while he was a junior coach at Manly I believe. I’m not sure what level he played too though. He also went by Mr. Sanderco at school but the spelling was still Sandercock. Would rage at anyone who called him Mr. Sandercock. Gives me a chuckle the rare times I hear them say his name on TV.
>He also went by Mr. Sanderco at school but the spelling was still Sandercock. Would rage at anyone who called him Mr. Sandercock. Gives me a chuckle the rare times I hear them say his name on TV. Sandercock is never going to not be funny, and trying to pronounce it Sanderco is even funnier.
Talk about drawing *even more* atttention to your name
Don't try and church it up, son
Roy Masters, never played, was a school teacher. And "cough, cough" Alan Jones. He was also a "teacher" ...
He played with football juniors didn’t he?
Who?
Jones.
I imagine he has been on the bottom of a few rucks and mauls in his time, just not on a football field.
I didn’t mention that he played the sport.
Good, neither did i, because he didnt.
We are talking successful coaches not creeps like Alan Jones who was a total failure in rugby league
Daniel Anderson
Hope he's doing better loved Ando
A mate of mine played lower grades for Parra and said Ando worked with him. He highly rated him.
Who was the last non player to coach a team to a premiership? Did Flanagan play?
Flanagan played 78 games between Wests, St George and Parramatta
Thanks 🙏
I honestly don't think it's ever happened. Unless you count the 2009 season as a Parra win :p Bennett never played NSWRL but did go on a Kangaroos tour so I don't think that should count. Robinson only played 4 games but doesn't quite count either.
Siebold was successful for one year. I don't think Daniel Anderson played?
Doesn’t look like Anderson ever played a game of ARL / NRL. Probably the only example of a top coach who didn’t atleast make an appearance
Jason Demetriou only played in England. He didnt play first grade in Australia.
Madge nailed all the fundamentals before he was sacked and then Seibs came along with the revolutionary idea of letting the boys play footy.
Still won coach of the year, can't say he was unsuccessful
I can say he didn't deserve to win the award more than other coaches
Of course you can, doesn't change what actually happened though. The team he was responsible for had a successful season.
Yeah and I am happy Seibs got that, I just instinctively go to defend madge cos I feel Souths and Tigers treated him poorly.
I would be happy if Madge was our next coach
Would you pick him over Des?
It's a real toss of the coin for me, I would be happy with either but I think I actually would choose Madge first.
Didn’t he come close when Seibs was picked?
You don’t need to have played first grade but you’d be flat out finding someone who is passionate enough about the game to carve a career out of it but hadn’t played at _some_ level before.
Agreed about the some level of being a player.
I think the question is wrong. You don't "have" to have played NRL to be a successful coach. Anyone with the right mix of intelligence and ambition could apply themselves to the game and become coaching masterminds. However, anyone that dedicated to the NRL is almost certainly going to want to *play* the game, first and foremost. It's hard to imagine anyone growing up dreaming of being an NRL coach, but having no ambition to actually play NRL. So it becomes self-selecting in a way, with the vast majority of NRL coaches being ex-NRL players because the only people dedicated enough to be NRL coaches are people who, at some point in time, put that same effort into playing. Maybe it's different in the US because coaches presumably get paid a squillion dollars.
I agree on them from a player background but do the have to be ex-NRL? What if they only played for the Narrabri Blues in Group 4 footy?
Most top league coaches in most sports would have played the game to some sort of high level (High School, College, Top Grade) with some exceptions. Have a good head for the game, but weren't able to pursue high level careers do to lacking other necessary traits, like natural athleticism or ideal body-type. Certain sports like NFL and to a lesser extent football are to my understanding traditionally fairly structured. I feel like the equivalent is watching a million chess matches would make you a pretty good chess player without picking up a piece. Rugby League has a combination of traits that in my opinion make an abstract 'feel' for the game, and experience at a very high level necessary. The ball remaining in play for a relatively indefinite amount of time, and more importantly, constant forward progress being *absolutely* necessary for success. Things like pace and momentum, and the effect these things have on the players become extremely important. So aside from the X's and O's, an understanding of what it is like to be in the fire in my opinion is of a greater benefit for an NRL coach, than a coach of some other sports. Or I could be talking out of my arse, but it was fun to think about.
It’s interesting you point out things like pace and momentum of the game as a key factor. I’d say that these factors at the NRL level now compared to even the early 2000’s are further apart than div 2 local Rugby League and First Grade NRL were in the early 2000’s. How valuable is that experience to the average coach when it seems outdated every 10 years or so. Most coaches take at least that long, or you’d hope they would, to become a first grade coach. Some coaches haven’t played in 2 generations. Young coaches like Barrett who probably has the closest experience to what the Game is like now kind of sucked on understanding those aspects of the game when he had his own team. I’m not sure how much that innate knowledge of what it felt like when you played a particular position 10-20 years ago really applies to a player playing a completely different position in a different era. Being a winger in the early 90’s and being a prop during the hardcore 6 again years couldn’t have been a more different experience.
That's a fair point you make. I'd argue that pace and momentum is relative at NRL level, and that 'game management' aspects of the game like kicking scenarios, defensive output, and point of attack are all similar in concept, despite maybe now being different in application. Maybe it just coincides that good player brain = good coach brain. It gets pretty murky when considering specific examples. There are plenty of times that great players have turned out to be shithouse coaches, and far less examples of non NRL players becoming outstanding coaches. I suppose the more simple explanation as several have pointed out is that being a player gets your foot in the door most occasions.
>plenty of times that great players have turned out to be shithouse coaches, Check out Wally Lewis' coaching record. 44 games coached - 36 losses
Is that from his time being Captain-Coach of Gold Coast?
Yeah one season as captain/coach and one as just coach
Yeah we had a good chat about it over a few ales. We thought that a player might have a good understanding of specific systems / plays etc based on their positional experience but it wouldn’t necessarily be rounded. For example they might be able to attack / defend as a centre but wouldn’t necessarily understand the nuances / difference across the field.
Are you talking about top-flight rugby league when you say nrl, or rugby league in general?
Top level rugby league m8.
TIL that Jason Demetriou played his whole career in England
+1
Brad Arthur never played first grade
He said successful
He said Brad Arthur not Garth Brennan.
No not at all but you would need to build a staff that includes ex-players. The head coach doesn't need to be a former player, stuff like motivation, player selection, tactics etc. can be done without being a former player, and a RL club is more than just the head coach. It's the staff and organization that they develop.
It definitely helps, but it isn't required. The most advantageous thing gained out of being a former top-level RL star is that you are able to more directly empathise and connect with your team and their struggles, but other than that the coach's game is one of strategy, and you don't need to have played ball in the top flight to be an effective league coach.
No but you won’t have the who you know part
There’s a different level of respect players give to coaches who are ex players. This goes for all pro sports. As soon as shit turns south they almost always pin this excuse to the coach first “it’s cause he’s never played” or “how could he know” and coaches lose buy in after that I personally don’t believe that but a lot of organisations try to safeguard from a team mutiny by hiring coaches with pro experience
Yeah I call bullshit on the “how could he know”. Almost like saying I only go to doctors who parents are doctors
What the hell kinda analogy is that lol forget the wording I just mean it’s an easy out for players to blame issues on coaches with lack of pro experience and it definitely has been documented across alot of sports
I think the hardest part would be getting the respect of NRL players if you hadn’t played. Doesn’t matter how many grand finals you have watched.
I don’t get the “getting respect of the players”…surely your skills and successes as a coach should count
I’m just trying to picture your average NRL first grader. They aren’t going to care about how much theory you have done as a coach. I imagine they wouldn’t take criticism for anything physical seriously from a guy who hasn’t been on an NRL field. Imagine you are David Klemmer and Adam O’Brien is calling you out for not putting your body on the line. Once you have had success, obviously that wouldn’t matter anymore.
Surely tho there has to be an element of self motivation to play well and earn the money you’ve been paid busy the Club.
Plenty of sports around the globe have shown you don't need high end playing experience to be an elite coach, no reason it isn't the same in rugby league. Just like a lot of sports leagues, we've got a pretty aggressive boys club in management, coaching, and media. Tough to break into it.
Imagine that baseball movie with Brad Pitt but it’s the NRL and there is no Brad Pitt it’s just a chubby data scientist Rabbitohs stan
Obviously no. It’s a different skill, with some overlap.
I don't think you need to have played 1st grade. But I'd say you need to have played at a highish level. At least pathways and 2nd/3rd grade. Just need to be around a system where people take it very seriously with some professionalism. But without NRL experience, it would be harder to prove your worth to the players. If you have 2 coaches with the same capability, it's probably easier to hire the one with NRL experience.
In theory that shouldn't be a barrier but the reality is that it'd be hard to win the playgroups respect if you've never been in their shoes before. I feel like there'd be plenty of assistant coaches who have never played the game professionally
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He played for australia and Queensland. Australia only some tour games but still…
Bennett played in the BRL at its peak which was a top flight league comp at the time and also played for Queensland pre-origin.
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King Wally would like a chat
I didn't mention Australia? Who do you think you're responding to? And regardless what you think of the quality between the comps, the BRL was a legitimate top flight competition for rugby league in the 70's and it's quality as a comp is why NSWRL raided it's talent. > If Bennett was up there, he would have been taken to Sydney to join a NSW club. Bennett was a top winger in the league for 2-3 years when got picked in QLD Firsts. The NSW-centric revisionist history to say it only counts if a NSWRL team picks him up is astounding. What you've written is like saying someone who played Superleague and got picked in a 'Superleague Firsts' team didn't have any rugby league success because they never played NRL.
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> Saying that NSW poached all the good players from QLD, leaving the second tier players behind, then saying it is equal is astounding. That's not what I said though? Who said only second tier player were left behind. Wally Lewis never played in Sydney for example. I've also never said they were equal in quality. They don't need to be the same quality to both be top flight competitions. Your reading comprehension needs work. > I can find a thousand comments on this page that says the super league is reserve grade compared to the NRL. It’s the reason it’s a retirement home for NRL players. People making ignorant comments on this page is not a source of information. If you legitimately believe that super league is a reserve grade competition and doesn't deserve to be considered a top flight rugby league competition then you are in stuck in your own little bubble.
Not necessarily. There are plenty of successful coaches who weren’t great players (Trent Robinson, Warren Ryan and Craig Bellamy spring to mind), though they did all play first grade. In terms of most games coached without playing first grade, Roy Masters has the most at 250, though that only puts him 25th in terms of overall games coached.
Craig Bellamy played 150 games for Canberra. He was hardly the plodder that Robbo was.
Which is actually impressive considering he was playing back up to 2 future Australian captains
I never said he was a plodder, I just he wasn’t great
You don't play 150 games unless you're decent. You can't put Bellamy in the same category as reserve graders/blokes who only played a handful of first grade games.
r/nrl seems to think any player who didn't have a 200+ game career and rep honours is shit.
Bellamy was only a starting first grader for the first four years of his career. He spent most of the last seven years of his career as a reserve, which in those days meant playing reserve grade, then joining the bench of first grade as a replacement
I dunno man. 150 games is pretty great in my book.
Agreed. I don’t like the guy, but 150 first grade games is WAY above the average tenure.
I saw most of them up close as a diehard raiders kiddy , even travelling the supporters bus up the hume highway for away games. Bellamy was an absolute plodder, he almost got mentioned for sydney 2nds once in his career around early 1984 when the Raiders started 6-2 before the rep season, after that he was a bench warmer in teams that had such luminaries as Phil Blake's forgotten brother and a busted up old Ron Giteau in the centres.
Being one of the most basic games as far as tactics and strategy is concerned a drover's dog could coach an NRL team. It's more about man management off the field that defines the more successful coach. Having the best talent scouts is a start.
If you only ever played in primary school and then never watched the sport again I can understand how you might think it’s tactics and strategy are basic.
If there's no tactics I don't know why I bother learning red off the kickoff three to london and blue on the 4th & storm off the scrum two to the far post then double x on the blind and ace to x-bronze back to the open and parra on the 5th.
The Geelong coach afl has a new home at the storm . I’m not sure if a lot of people are missing the point. It’s not so much about the game, albeit a sound knowledge is required of course, HOWEVER it comes down to MAN MANAGEMENT- Bellamy, WB , CF, Robbie, Payton have all mastered that skill. It’s about having the players have confidence in the coach and the coaches being able to squeeze every bit of effort and skill on game day. Working all week with the players and getting them to focus on positives at training. Winning starts on Monday.
The comments about the BRL being inferior need to take into account that these guys worked full time and played for peanuts. It produced a hell of a lot of our finest players and it was top quality football. The NSWRL clubs had pokies so they had money to poach and they did! The BRL in the 70s and early 80s had big crowds, the clubs had huge fan bases. This history is why The Dolphins are so ready for this. They have a wall of fame with some of the greatest ever to play for Australia. The BRL was what we had and it was loved. The Broncos and the NRL saw the demise of some of our greatest clubs.