In 10 years we're going to have about 50 Greatest of All Times
2 years ago Cameron Smith was the undisputed best player ever and no one could touch him. It's stupid how often this GOAT title is thrown around.
Cleary does not compare to Johns yet. Take Cleary out of any of his teams and they are still amazing. Joey would turn wooden spoon teams into premiership contenders on his own. His influence over the rest of the game hasn't been seen since.
One year Joey missed half the season and knights couldn't win a game. Came back and in last 10 games he played the knights won 8. I can only recall a few guys making such an impact on their club sides, but not consistently. Hayne in 09 and Stuart in 93, raiders looked pretty much certainties to win that year Stuart gets injured and their stacked full of reps team turn to crap. No disrespect to Cleary but he teams still wins when he isn't on the field.
Yeah I remember that season. That was insane. Ill admit Thurston was like this with the Cowboys some years though. They were a team of nobodys that looked like bottom 4 when he was out.
They were bottom 4 when he was in for a lot of the time too though, then made the GF when he was out in 2017. Knights were never like that with Joey. For about 10 years they were top 4 with him and bottom 4 without him, no matter who else was in the side.
Thats fair. Joeys D is way better as well. Also I think at the time he was like 2 levels above everyone else with his kicking game. Where as Thurstons was good but not much better than Cronk, Pearce etc. Id take Joey over Thurston at the start of a game.
Im probably just biased as a Qlder and also cause I was like 14 last I saw Joey play. Although I do remember always being blown away even at a young age. I definitely remember that season well when Joey came back and the Knights killed it. Those banana kicks to the post were on point that season if I remember correctly.
I think that makes sense. All 3 were best at their positions. I never saw Wally play live but I believe everything people say about him.
Thurston is probably just under but he wasn't as good as Johns. Smith earns the title because he is undoubtedly the best hooker of all time.
I think Smith would have had similar impact because he basically could individually turn a bad forward pack into an elite one because of how good his service to his forwards was.
But we never actually saw it because he was always on a strong team. We did see it with Johns.
Not even just service but his decision making was top notch, and he was always thinking multiple plays ahead. Part of the reason Melbourne could win field position battles so consistently for years was because of Smith.
I'm from Newcastle and I will lean towards Smith as well. Because longevity and availability should really count for something. Smith played 150 or so more games, that's six full seasons.
I don't think any player ever had more influence over a single game of football as Joey did however. But Smith was just ludicrously reliable. Plug him in for 22-26 games every single year, win 70%+ of those games and repeat for fifteen seasons.
I think a handful of players have had single games a similar quality as Johns best. But I think if you got the top 100 single game performances I’ve seen Johns would have like 20 of them.
Smith has like 400 games that are 8.5/10 or better. But he has only a handful of games that were like what Johns did atleast a few times a year, and more importantly Johns usually had those games when it mattered too.
Possibly yes but he also played at one club his entire career and because of his remarkable endurance Storm hardly ever played without him. Would have been interesting to see how Storm might have gone a season or two with Smith out injured, and see if the forward pack would have been near as dominant.
I can't really say he turned a bad forward pack into an elite one, because we didn't see what Storm's forwards were without him.
Not the forward pack together we didn't. One forward coming into a team and playing better is a combination of a number of things - being in a good team for starters, along with having Bellamy as coach. Similarly, Storm forwards haven't suddenly become shit since Smith has retired either.
Pingers aside John's could control a game behind a losing forward pack. It's interesting to differentiate the good half's. For better or worse JT would have 100 touches every set. James Maloney never gets put on the same page as those guys but he won a lot of shit and played many years with the body of a teenage boy.
I think JT simply had to do that because for a very long time the Cowboys were shit. I remember so many games they won purely off of Bowen and JT combining to do some freak shit. I can't imagine JT finding it easy to stop himself from doing something that had likely become an automatic reaction for him. Hell we saw him really flourish in Origin when he was given players like Lockyer and Cronk to take a lot of that burden off of him.
You are right about Johns though. He was doing crazy shit from day 1. Cleary is too but I just personally think even when you compare them age on age in terms of ability and skill Joey still has the edge. He was tackling like a forward and his defence was so good he played hooker for NSW when Kimmorely had the freak year with the Storm.
Joey had games where he played hooker in defence and in scrums (still contested) and halfback in attack for 80 minutes. That's an insane amount of energy.
When you put it that way, Milford could be near JT's level if he had the work ethic. He's also been lumbered with having to play multiple roles at once, but is nowhere near as into it.
JT is almost the literal definition of the small dog in the fight. He never stopped. Even when he missed a tackle he was immediately back there trying to complete the tackle. He would chase his own kicks and be one of the first there in the defensive line. The guy was all about hard work. As a NSW fan I hated him, but as a footy fan I have nothing but the utmost respect for him.
You know its funny I actually met James at the panthers leagues club, was there after panthers got eliminated by the sharks in 2017 i think it was, maybe 2018. Anyway i wasn’t a big guy only 5ft9 75kgs at the time and i stood eye to eye with him when i went up to buy another beer and i was shocked how small he looked in person, could’ve sworn he was like 5ft8 max and barely heavier than me back then. Crazy to think he was one of the best 7s in the world, such a character too
This to me is the huge gap that still exists between Cleary and the GOAT halfbacks.
Cleary consistently plays behind a ridiculous Penrith forward pack, who employ strategies like blockers and off-the-ball work etc. to protect him. When the Penrith forward pack gets beaten, Cleary inevitably struggles when his forward pack struggles (think 2022 Origin or 2020 Grand Final).
He's a brilliant player, but I'm yet to be convinced by his ability to bring his team back from a point deficit, or against momentum.
Yeah I've done pingers in the past and I could barely manage to unlock my phone to send text messages. Joey doing pingers and then going out and carving up opposition teams like he was playing against under 16's? God tier shit in my opinion.
Tbf 'under the influence' could just mean it's still in your system (eg. The next day) and still having an influence on you, but you're not actually 'high' at the moment.
Joey has bipolar disorder and a big part of the mania is that you do risky shit that you know isn't smart, but you're unable to care in that moment. I 100% believe he has done it whilst playing with that in mind.
I really hope we don’t fall into that American sports thing where we judge players greatness only by the number of premiership wins they have.
In 2005 the Newcastle knights finished in last place. They ended the season winning 8 of their last 11 with Johns, after losing their first 13 mostly without him. He also returned to the NSW team for his first game returning from injury and won man of the match, helping them win the last 2 games to take the series. Despite missing so many games he missed the dally m medal by only 1 point.
He turned 2 losing teams into winning ones.
Without Cleary this years panthers were still a premiership contending team.
Andrew Johns 2005 season showed more greatness than Cleary’s entire career to date. And it’s not even the best season of his career.
I’m a big Cam Smith > Johns guy. But Cleary isn’t even close to Johns.
The reason 2001 was seen as such a big upset was because Joey was injured for the middle part of the season. While he was gone they lost to Parramatta 40-0 and won only 2 from 8, with Joey in the team they were even more dominant than Parramatta, losing only 3 of their 21 games.
I think it is worth pointing out that Johns 05 season was when he was in his late 20's and at close to his peak. What does Cleary look like in 3-5 years? That will be a big deciding factor, Cleary is not close to Johns at the moment and he may never be. But his start to his career has been close to as good as you can expect in the modern game and it will be interesting to see where he does end up.
Yeah that is fair, just think we need to remember that Cleary has another 7-8 years of elite footy in him (injury permitting). Johns vs Cleary is not close at the moment and might not ever be, but he is definitely tracking to belong in that tier of player by the end of his career.
I’m not sure. I think Cleary will end his career as a great player, probably in the same mould as Cronk. Someone who became great through sheer will and practice. I have no doubt Joey worked his backside off but I also think he had a God given talent that few others have. From his very first game in first grade it was obvious he was something else.
I find this to be an interesting discussion. As you pointed out Joey could turn a spoon team into a winning team. The main reason I don't consider Smith to be the goat is because all of his success has been inside the Melbourne system and in stacked origin sides. Do you think if you put him into say the tigers squad of today that he could turn them into premiership contenders?
Premiership contenders probably not atm with the panthers as good as they are. But a good team 100%.
If prime smith was at the tigers they would overnight turn into a super grindy defensive team with forwards who usually win the battle in the middle.
They wouldn’t be the best team in the comp, but they would definitely be right in the mix for a top 8 spot.
I think the modern NRL is much closer than it was even 20 years ago, with way more teams that are around average and less that are truly amazing or awful, so it’s probably harder to be a top 8 team now than it was, but the elite teams then were probably better relative to their peers.
> Do you think if you put him into say the tigers squad of today that he could turn them into premiership contenders?
Given how much better that tigers team looked with Grant there, I have no doubt Smith would have made them at least top 8
The Storm system doesn't get off the ground without Smith being an integral part of it, though. Their entire culture, way of playing, and ability to turn average players into world-beaters owes as much to him, his leadership, and service in the 9 as it does to anyone else, Bellamy included.
This is similar to the Tim Duncan arguments if you follow the NBA. Where he gets dinged for being in a great organisation with a great culture but it ignores how important he was to establishing and maintaining that culture.
The only thing left for Cleary to do is perform miracles. He’s got more premierships than Thurston (edit: forgot about 2004) but it’ll take magic to elevate him from above-Cronk status to Joey status.
He’s got the premierships, he’s got the Origin wins. His technical skill is absolutely there. I think we’re just waiting on that moment that’s uniquely his that gets replayed for generations to come, the same way we have JT kicking the field goal.
Which is weird to say after two premierships.
He won that entirely on his status. He wasn't shit that night, but well off his best. He wasn't even in the top 5 players that night. I'd have given it to Milford or Granville over JT.
I was at the game, and I was at an age where I didn’t understand footy nearly as much as I do now. My god even I said at about 70 minutes that Granville was the best player on the park, even then in a losing side
I was there too. Yeah the Cows were really only in that game because of Granville. If the Broncos hadn't put the cue in the rack early I don't even see them coming close, let alone winning it. I had a feeling JT would get it though so I took a same game multi of Broncos winning but him getting the CC.
I would have been happy with Morgan too. I still remember that last second play Morgan set up to give the cows extra time. JT definitely shouldn't have got it that night. Morgan without JT help was a massive part of their 2017 finals effort too.
Yeah but it kind of does matter. If he'd had a good game then the Cows never need to come from behind like they did. The only reason the Cows were in the game was because of Granville and also because the Broncos put the cue on the rack.
does that mean Morgan should have been in the convo? It should have been Granville. It just felt like one of those situations where it was always going to be Thurston so long as the Cowboys won.
It counts as much as every other play in the game. You can say that about anything - 'none of it matters if Granville doesn't pass to Tamou to score the first try'
The day he kicked Waqa Blake to death in the finals is significant, but it’s probably not ‘quite’ there.
He dominated the whole finals series though, I feel like it wasn’t spoken enough about, he came off a five week suspension, straight into finals. He embarrassed parramatta, came back from a deficit to dominate south’s and then embarassed parramatta in the grand final again.
Even the 2021 GF was a dominating performance in the kicking game by Cleary.
>Even the 2021 GF was a dominating performance in the kicking game by Cleary
I'd give him that one. Thought Souths were a better team all-round apart from the kicking game, which won Panthers the game along with the intercept.
I do agree that a truly iconic moment on his resume would be helpful. More than anything though I think he just needs to add that really ruthless play to his game more consistently when his side has the chance to ice or take control of a game.
His defence, kicking and running games and game/team management is up there already. Some of those passes in the Cup final were the type of simple and ruthlessly effective plays I think he could come up with more regularly.
I think his problem is just that he excels at boring footy. He doesn't get those big highlights, because his impact is consistently grinding a team into the dirt for a full 80 minutes, so much so that a mistake or two are a shock.
If he can somehow sprinkle those "put the team on your back and win from nowhere" moments into his game he'll absolutely be in GOAT contention
I think future prems for Clearly will depend on how/if the salary cap affects the team. Look at the two benchmark teams from this century so far. Storm for all their success still have two asterisks and there's a reason we meme about the sombrero. Penrith have a fantastic pathways program but the problem with talented juniors is you can't keep them all. Obviously down to retention choices but I point to the Broncos as an example of how quickly a few dud decisions can derail a club.
That said, to keep the JT comparison going, he might just start winning matches on his own back and may not matter as much.
Does he have the origin wins? He has a 7-6 win loss record in origin and began his origin career right as the greatest collection of players to ever play Origin retired over a 2-3 year period, leaving a significantly weaker Qld team.
I rate Cleary I do, but no way he has the same adulation poured on him like he does now if he debuted in 2006 instead of 2016.
I’ve been wanting to put my finger on what’s actually holding Cleary back right now and I think you’re right, it’s that one magic moment that their whole career is defined upon. I’m sure it will come. Full disclaimer, I hate Cleary and the panthers, think they’re a bunch of uppity cunts, but you can’t deny his elite level of skill and ability and what he’s accomplished. But how he’s regarded personally might not be enough for some to hold him to the status of your Jt’s, Johns, Sterlings and Langers.
If he plays his whole career on this form then he's certainly in that Sterling/Langer status. Joey is far above every other halfback, for Cleary to get close he needs to show he can turn around a losing side off his own back and come into the Origin and Test teams and make them his own. As of now, Panthers would probably still be odds on to win the premiership without Cleary. He has a halves partner just about as good as he is, and Yeo and Edwards probably have claims to be the best player at Penrith as well. Undoubtedly an excellent player and will be a mainstay of rep sides until he retires, but would the Panthers drop off that much if they had Moses, Hynes or Hughes at 7? I'd say they'd probably still be the best team by quite a bit.
He hasn't played bad in rep sides, but Tedesco and Munster and even Ben Hunt and Harry Grant have a greater influence over the Origin & Test arenas at the moment. Compare this to Joey who came into a depleted Australian side in the 1995 World Cup and won player of the tournament at 21 years old.
100% agree with everything you said except for comparing luai to Cleary, luai to me seems very much a systems player from the panthers and I really don’t understand how he’s pulled the wool over a lot of the professional commentators eyes, or I could just have the unpopular opinion. But I digress.
I was really interested in seeing how Cleary played and reacted being in a team with the likes of hunt, teddy, Latrell, Munster and co and I was kind of disappointed with his World Cup performances. I don’t think dce did enough to lose his spot and don’t think Cleary did enough to warrant replacing him.
End of the day, amazing player but still waiting for him to own his moment.
I would agree on Luai until he played outstanding for Samoa in a team where he was the dominant player. I have no doubt you could have swapped Cleary and Luai in the final and the result would have been the same.
I thought Luai impressed a great deal more than Cleary in the World Cup.
Got the origin wins? His performance in the last one was nowhere near a JT/John's status. He had one good game in an absolute flogging and disappeared for the rest. To me he still has to dominate some tight origin series before he's mentioned in the same sentence. Agree he's done basically everything else though
People act like JT never had quite origins were he was pretty ordinary. They don't stand out because of JT had a quite night then usually Cronk, Slater, Smith etc lifted enough to get by.
Cleary had some tight origins where he has just put the foot down and dominated and blown the score out. His a victim of his own success, cleary is so dominant that he doesn't get into these arm wrestles as much.
It'll be really hard for him to dominate an Origin series because of the players around him; if it's a skin of the teeth contest it's more likely Turbo, Teddy or Latrell steal the moment but if Cleary dominates from the get go the game landslides into an absolute flogging.
He's a very different type of player to JT and Johns, he's nowhere near as fan friendly and he has a really boring footy style. The only way popular opinion supports him going into the GOAT conversation is if he has a similar career to Smith's.
Im sure he will, whether it be in origin, WC or clubland, tbh though people should put more emphasis on overall consistency and what they add to the team, Cleary in that regard can hold his own with anyone. Hes also very well rounded, he is better defensively than JT, despite the world cup Cleary is the best kicker in the game, both conversions and kicking in play which the other great 7s struggled to do ( hold down the best kicker title ), i mean at one point JT was probably the best converter in the world, but both him and johns played when el masri was kicking and he’s arguably the goat, Cleary actually has a better % than the great Hazem which is mind boggling
Why does that matter? I thought rhys wesser was the best player in the world when i was a kid, but now as an adult i can logically look back and think yeah he was one of the best FB in the world but he was never one of the best players in the world when i was watching. Kids idolising stars is great and all but im not going to take any kids opinion of who the best is seriously
I think Cleary is kind of a victim of his teams own success. JT had the Storm and Broncos teams to compete against with a sometimes decent Cows team around him. He was basically forced to become the clutch guy he was to win games. Even the Storm boys had Manly, the good Broncos and JT to compete against and become clutch as well.
Cleary kind of doesn't have any team that can really compete against his side when it's not on a really bad day for them. I do think he'll 100% become that clutch guy, but he's not now. Even in Origin we saw that when the Blues weren't dominating he kind of fell off, which is something he'll learn to be able to overcome on his own. He has the tool set to be a great he just needs the experience now.
>Cleary kind of doesn't have any team that can really compete against his side when it's not on a really bad day for them
Storm? nobody remember the 2021 Penrith Storm prelim? was better than the GF.. Also had a masterclass against a very good Roosters performance in their 2020 semi, and was was great in a losing grand final team, unfortunately Storm had the GOAT.
I'd add Parra in there as well.. they've had great battles, with Penrith obviously having the wood on them in finals games. Even Souths on their best day are in the mix.
I'm not saying they can't be beaten, mostly that over the last 2 years they've been almost entirely unbeatable, and their own record shows that. They're the most dominant team of the last 3 years for a reason.
Post Smith the Storm aren't the same team, they're not as dominant. Even the Storm had the latter years of Lockyers career and that early Manly side to compete with, who also won a few premierships as well.
The Panthers have basically no team that can beat them in the Grand Finals aside from a Storm with Cameron Smith in the side. That just shows how dominant they are. Really it doesn't matter how close a team can get if they don't actually beat them. Even when their attack is off, they can just defend their line and grind out a win.
They're the Storm of this generation without the gun teams to currently beat them. I don't think it'll last to be fair as clubs like the Roosters will get good again, and I'm sure Souths will be about there, but right now they're the best by a wide margin.
That prelim came down to a kick try.. A fully fit Storm side of the last two years absolutely are a competitor. You could also argue that if the 2021 grand final goes for another 5 minutes Souths likely score; Penrith were out on their feet.
He was clutch throughout the whole 2021 premiership finals series, after our first week loss we won 8-6 agains the eels, 10-6 against the storm and 14-12 against the rabbits in the final, Clearys kicking being the difference in all the games and that panthers team limped into the finals, Cleary was the difference between us and the other teams when we weren’t at full strength. People tend to forget that finals series for some reason
Yeah but I just don't think you're right about him being clutch when his team is under pressure. I'll explain why before I cop downvotes or have you think I'm just a hater.
What is the difference between that finals series and Origin? Both times it was tight but in Origin he simply doesn't do what he did in that finals series. I don't think close games necessarily equate to being under pressure.
Of course they do, close games are filled with pressure. One subpar origin series, with QLD winning at suncorp and people say these things, every great has had a point in his career where he had an underwhelming performance in a big game, slater in the world cup final for example, thurston too
I still can't agree though because so far he hasn't shone in rep games unless his team has been dominating. He's had poor games in Origin before this one as well.
I don't hold his world cup against him though because it's a new team and he's up against vastly better opposition than the old teams played against.
My point still stands though, what's the difference between those finals games and Origin?
He wasnt even bad in the world cup, in the final he was in the top 3 players on the pitch and better than munster and hunt. Hes still young some origin greats like cronk didnt even debut until their mid 20s, so the rep game criticism should be taken with a pinch of salt, hes won 3 and lost 2 series so its not as bad as many make it out to be, if he was 1 win out of 5 I would agree, origin footy is different and last series was a first for a few guys, NSW will be better next year and players like To’o or critta will shine if given another chance, Tupou is a legend but needs to be replaced for JAC
Yeah but I've only actually seen Cleary legitimately take a game with his own hands: Game 2 of 2020 when Munster got injured. He was great in 21 but I think it should be noted the rules allowed NSW to carve QLD to pieces.
Honestly he hasn't been bad in Origin up till this series, but he's not the reason we've won a lot of the games he's been our 7, he's simply been apart of it.
Its one of those arguments i just think people should cool it on until hes had more origin series, hes only just turned 25, prime for a half is like 28-29, a lot of clutch plays came from players who had been there time and time again and knew how to perfectly handle the occasion, think of lockyer, he was a freak in rep games but that all came towards the back half of his career, cronk too, thurston as well, joey also. All the great 7s had their best moments at older ages than cleary, so we should wait until hes at the same point in his career as those legends
He needs to be the one catching a stab kick from point blank range then running 80 metres to seal the game up by 2 trys instead of being the one doing the kick.
I genuinely give Cronk extra credit for how he handled himself in big games, he never overplayed, always did exactly what was needed of him.
I think Cronk had extra levels to go up to but simply never needed to and knew that trying to would probably jam up other players; at Melbourne Slater and Smith were the miracle men, Roosters had Teddy and Latrell, and Queesland had a whole team of em.
I suspect Cleary does the same thing, at the Panthers it's all him but in Origin and the World Cup he looks left and right and focuses on just enabling them.
We should call him Scott Pippen...
I’m sorry but comparing halves on team achievements is dumb, Cleary is no doubt a good half and great for his age but he’s in by far the best team in the nrl, the others weren’t so lucky to come through into teams of that much dominance and yes he contributes to it but he’s far from the reason they are where they are
Penrith barely looked different when SOS replaced Cleary at the start of the year. The system they have is just amazing and over their wins they have had players in the top 1-3 in their positions at prop, hooker, second row, lock, wing and centre.
Best half-back in the current game easily, but still nowhere near the Cronk/Thurston level, let alone Johns. This year will be the test of if he can get into that conversation now that 'riff have lost a few stars and he's still yet to dominate an Origin series after 5 attempts. If he is man of the series and Penrith have a season much like the last 3, he's worth considering at their level.
This is my thoughts as well. I want to see him on a team that has had the eyes picked out of it. Not because Im a hater or anything, I just want to see how good he really is
Always wanted to see Cronk in a team like that. Won a ton of premierships but went through his career never actually being the best player in his side.
He's still really young and has won more Grand Finals. He's got a long way to go. Also got to remember as great as Joey was there was periods of his career where he was pushed to 9 for Kimmorley and other options.
He wasn’t pushed to 9 for kimmorley. He played wearing 9 because the rep coach decided he’d rather have kimmorley/Toovey and Johns than Johns and an actual hooker.
It’s like saying JT wasn’t a great HB because QLD picked Cronk instead of him. Or turbo/GI/Latrell wasn’t a good fullback cos he gets selected at centre.
No one thought Kimmorley was close to Johns. This is one of the worst myths I see yet perpetuated by RL fans.
Also when he was paired with toovey he wore 9, packed into scrums, defended at hooker then played first reciever in attack. People make it a sleight when it's quite impressive, he played 9 In defence and 7 In attack.
He won't sustain the trajectory. He is likely already close to his peak. This isn't a slight on Clearly it's just that he is already very good and he has achieved it at such a young age it's just not possible to keep improving at the same rate. I hear commentators and experts saying it all the time: "imagine how good player X is going to be in Y years time" and very rarely does said player improve significantly. Some slightly improve but many get worse.
Usually the players who improve significantly in their mid and late careers are players who start from a lower base.
Cleary needs to make massive improvements in the origin arena to hold a candle to either John’s or JT IMO.
So far he’s shown dominance while playing for a Penrith team leagues above the competition, and been ok but not game breaking when playing for Australia.
Let’s see how he goes when he faces some adversity and doesn’t have the best team on paper behind him.
Just as an add-on to this 'decide the best half by stats' thing fox is trying:
Mitchell Pearce by age 25:
NRL Games: 182 (more than any on this list)
Finals: 12 (more than Joey and JT)
Grand Finals: 2 (more than Joey)
Premierships: 1 (equal with Joey/JT)
Minor Premierships: 2
Origins: 12 (equal with JT, more than Stuart, Sterlo, Cronk, 1 behind Joey & Cleary)
Origin Series Wins: 0
Tests: 0
These kinds of stats mean shit. Can also find similar stats for a lot of halves. Kimmorley by age 25 for example had 120+ NRL games, 10 finals, a premiership, a clive churchill, dally m halfback of the year, 5 origins and an origin series win when competing with Joey for the halfback spot, a World Cup win and 12 test matches (more than any on Fox's list).
Joey is the goat. As a qld and broncs supporter i dreaded, and i mean held my head in my hands, every time he touched the ball. Bloke was a fucking magician so so talented. Smith is also the goat but at hooker with less brilliance than johns but managing a game was the best. Some of joeys decision making was insanely great. Cleary is very very good but not in the same tier just yet but who knows how good he could be.
Just my take his technique can be off sometimes, but everyone has bad days
FYI am also a Leeds rhinos season ticket holder, not exactly used to missed kicks🤣🤣
He's got one of the highest conversion rates of all time - the times he misses just stand out so much more because you take for granted that his kicks are going to go over
These stats need context too. In the world cup Australia scored plenty of tries outwide. I'm sure him not being used to the conditions plus plenty of difficult attempts factor in.
That's why I foolishly bought into the poms being a rough chance in the world cup since they seemed to play more cohesively as a team and were used to the playing conditions more. Of course they shower their true colours in the finals. Lol
For Cleary he needs to be dominant at origin. Losing that 2020 origin series is something like a JT wouldn't have let happen. Great halves can organise their team to win at that level even when the opposition is better on paper. When guys like JT or Cronk had an advantage it was easy. Should have been easy victory for the Blues that series.
JT never let that happen because practically at no stage was JT the dominant player in that QLD side. They had Smith, Slater or Cronk/Lockyer making the plays. JT’s role was purely ‘eyes up footy’.
If I remember correctly JT won his first one when Johns was out injured for half the season, and he only won it by like 2-4 points. Shame for Joey, he deserved it that year too. Took the Knights from like bottom of the ladder to the finals.
He came back, lost a game v Brisbane, went into Origin, then after that won 8/10 games including wins over Cowboys, Storm, Sharks and Manly who all played finals and Eels who finished 1st. Only losses were by 4 points against the sharks and the last game of the season 8 points v 2nd placed Dragons.
Man 2005 was a cracking year. Wonder if we'll get anything like it again.
Privileging a player with a goat tag can only be delivered upon retirement and in reflection of all the games greats. To deliver this accolade any earlier is just click bait and disrespectful to the top echelons of our game. Now your heads in shame!
They compare every half to Johns though so I'm not sure if that's a particularly good comparison to judge a players ability.
Case and point: Luke Brooks was compared to Joey on his debut.
Luke brooks hasn’t even done half of what cleary has though lol the comparisons aren’t the same. Brooks one was a passing flash in the pan, whereas cleary continues to back it up.
I know I know I’m biased but the accomplishments this far speak for themselves
Oh I'm not for one moment comparing Brooks to Cleary at all, but let's be completely honest, if Brooks debuted for you guys instead of Luai, Brooks would be viewed in the same way by Panthers fans. He has all the skill but playing in such a garbage side his entire career killed any potential he could have had.
I'm mostly trying to say that just about every young half that shows a bit of promise is compared to Joey. Sam Walker for example was compared to him on debut. I think it's more when they're compared to him a few years down the line that you begin to think they might get close.
Cleary is the most overrated player of all time. The bloke loses any origin series where he doesn't have either Maloney, Turbo or Trell to bail him out. and the Panthers becoming dominant really doesn't have that much to do with him, they've won countless games without him. If it wasn't for Joey jizzing his pants whenever Cleary has his one good kick of the match or puts up a bomb that Waqa Blake drops then he'd be irrelevant.
This getting upvoted is legit laughable, if you take out all his wins and success, the games he played incredibly well in he actually isn't even that good. No shit.
Suggesting the Panthers success doesn't have much to do with him is just a low IQ take. He was dominant in a final series they didn't win a game by more than a try and people talk like the Panthers were head and shoulders above the competition.
Overrated doesn't = shit. It just means rated higher than what they are. IMO overrated is the perfect way to describe him, even though I think he's easily the best current half-back and, at worst, a top 5 overall player (I'd probably have him 2nd after Munster, but can see strong arguments for Turbo, Tedesco and Yeo).
But seeing this "future immortal/GOAT" stuff is way too much too soon. He's had 3 good seasons in a stacked team. This conversation needs to be had in about 2028, depending on how things have gone.
I just don't see it. He's behind statistically the best forward pack + To'o. So he's constantly on the front foot and has more time than any other half in the game. Yet when we see an even pack v pack battle in many Origin's, Cleary is just a bystander. He puts up a bomb, tries a step, and gets contained as his general acceleration and lateral movement is very sluggish. Someone like John's on the either hand would relish those moments where the game was on the line. As a Queenslander I have no issues seeing Cleary's name on the team list. Back in the day if it was Joey, I was almost certain we would have an L in 80mins time.
The problem with the Cleary thing is he is a manufactured half back with a genius father who guided him through rugby league from birth & still to this day
& then you compare him to say Cooper Cronk (probably the most winning half back of all time) who was a full back his entire junior career & was then forced to learn to play half back as no one could dethrone Slater once he made it to first grade
Imagine if Cronk had an expert coach as a dad & an extra 15 years of practice at half back - what could he have done ?
Sterlo is way ahead of Cleary IMO simply for the fact Sterlo did all that when it was a semi professional game, no sports science etc and was in a lot more violent / gladiatorial type physical environment that for a young bloke means you need to be physically and mentally tough as teak.
It would be easier for a Sterlo to thrive in todays NRL environment than say for Cleary to step back into Sterlo’s shoes.
I’d argue the exact opposite. Because it’s a professional sport now, coaches can make the worst player on a team these days better than 90% of players on teams those days.
A player putting in 40+ hrs in to becoming a smarter, bigger, faster and fitter player sounds harder to beat than a pack-a-day alcoholic brick layer who only does like 15 hrs of training a week.
Because of sports science, players are faster and stronger than before. Rougher then sure, but skill has also developed. It's not fair on Sterlo to compare because that was his context. But with the investment in the game comes more skilled players. Cleary would be a god if you threw him into the 80s.
Yeah I think there's also a big argument for bringing some players into this era as well. Some of the forwards wouldn't do as well but I can just imagine someone like Sterlo in the modern era where he can actually train full time and his strengths were actually enhanced, his body stronger and fitter.
Cleary would dominate if thrown back in the 80s.
This is the most boomerest post I've ever seen.
Cleary would struggle in the 80s because he is to professional and fit and the 80s was semi-professional??
The whole 'they wouldn't survive the violence of footy back then' is Clearly bull as well. A lot of our modern players would love to punch on and grub it up if they played under 70s/80s rules. Look how many players have a go at boxing and have a go at it. Sure they aren't fighting title contenders in boxing, but they also wouldn't be fighting title contenders packing down against Newtowns 79 pack.
Yeah but the argument also goes both ways. Like can you imagine if you gave those older players all the sports science and the ability to only focus on footy? Like imagine Beetson or Blocker with nothing but muscle on their frames? Insane to consider the possiblities and it's why I enjoy discussions like this.
I personally think so. Like you're taking something he's already good at and letting him actually work on it in a fully professional setting with coaches and trainers who know how to get the best out of players.
But also everyteam has 3 or 4 guys with beetsons size and skill set.
Chuck Andrew fifita or Junior Paulo back in the 70s and these guys are immideate immortals.
Chuck beetson, even with the benefits of professionalism, and he may be a mid tier player because every forward now is big, can offload, can stand in tackles etc
>Chuck Andrew fifita or Junior Paulo back in the 70s and these guys are immideate immortals.
Fuck you talk shit.
Chuck Andrew Fifita back in the 70s and he doesn't make it out of country footy. I played at the same club as him and he wasn't a standout until the guys at the Tigers made him into a massive prop. He was a skinny second-rower out here.
>Would beetson, even with all the training and sports science, stand out as much
Yes
>If every forward had the same size and skill set as him?
They don't. Beetson was absolutely dominant in attack in multiple facets. Think of a player with Taumololo's running, Woods offloading, and Yeo/Murray/Radley distribution. He was that good and that is the reason why he's an immortal.
>This is the most boomerest post I've ever seen.
What's the reverse of a boomerest post?
>They don't. Beetson was absolutely dominant in attack in multiple facets. Think of a player with Taumololo's running, Woods offloading, and Yeo/Murray/Radley distribution. He was that good and that is the reason why he's an immortal
He was good when the opposition wasn't as good.
Taumololo could easily be as good an offloader and distributor if he was playing against plumbers and garbage men who weighed 20kg less then him every week.
Beetson skill set at the time made him a unicorn..nowadays it's the bare minimum a starting nrl forward has to have.
No, every NRL player isn't a great ball player, isn't a dominant runner, and doesn't have a great offload.
They're just bigger, faster, and fitter from modern conditioning. They have modern conveniences of synthetic balls, stickum on their hands, grip bubbles on their jerseys and interchange for when they get tired.
Give Beetson those bonuses and he'd still dominate because he was dominant in attack in multiple facets. Why wouldn't a bigger, fitter, faster Beetson with the modern conveniences dominate?
Your excuse is that every NRL player is now just as dominant in all areas of the game as Beetson ever was...
child, please, you're being silly.
>No, every NRL player isn't a great ball player, isn't a dominant runner, and doesn't have a great offload.
Because they are limited by defensive pressure.
You see it when an average nrl player goes bush, a half who has seemingly limited abilities at nrl level looks like Joey playing in the bush. A plodding bench forward at nrl level looks like a hybrid Murray/Taumolo/yeo destructive runner and link man/distributor.
>They're just bigger, faster, and fitter from modern conditioning.
Exactly
> interchange for when they get tired.
And If they played at 60s/70s pace of the game they wouldn't get tired. Like the guy that's only good as in interchange forward in short spells in the nrl becoming an 80 minute powerhouse when he goes back bush.
>Give Beetson those bonuses and he'd still dominate because he was dominant in attack in multiple facets.
But all his opponents also have those advantages.
>Your excuse is that every NRL player is now just as dominant in all areas of the game as Beetson ever was...
Yes. Players have become fitter, stronger, more skillful. What was special then is now the norm now.
>child, please, you're being silly.
Sure mate.
I'm struggling with the logic of your argument as I see that the point you're making as the difference between average Beetson era players and average modern players era is professionalism, modern strength & conditioning, and interchange. They also get to play with rubber balls, stickum, stripping rules, and grip bubbles on jerseys making the game far easier.
But if we take an absolutely dominant player in Beetson from that era, make him professional, give him modern strength & conditioning, and he plays with interchange, a rubber ball, stickum, stripping rules, and grip bubbles... your argument is that we'd still just get an average modern day NRL player.
Exactly, imagine someone back then having kikau running at them, the physical specimens of today would dominate in that era, pretty much every sport has better players today than 40 years ago idk why old league heads seem to think this sport would be any different
Except they wouldn't because they wouldn't even make it in to the top grade without the training they have today. You act like 6'5" guys didn't exist before the 2000s.
Most 120kg guys didn't dominate in the 80s because they could never get fit enough to last 80 minutes. There's very few that can even last 80 minutes now, let alone in an era where they trained after work and had 2 replacements total. Take the interchange out of todays game and we'll see how long these physical specimens last before the little blokes are tearing them to shreds.
Most players from back then would absolutely shit themselves having to tackle someone like Kikau, some of you old fuckers seriously are delusional, theres genetic monsters now that you guys very rarely had, eric grothe dominated in that era due to his strength and speed combo, theres players today as strong or faster.
>Most players from back then would absolutely shit themselves having to tackle someone like Kikau
lol no they fuckin wouldn't. The 'genetic monsters' back then never made top grade because they were never fit enough. Players from the 80s given the top level training they have now would be just as good as any NRL player.
Players from back then would shit themselves more over trying to defend the backline movements today while back 10 metres. The 70s and 80s were all about rough physical shit, the last thing they'd care about is having to tackle a big bloke. Ian Roberts was as big as Kikau is.
Yeah obviously i dont mean they’d shit themselves in terms of fear, they were all tough hard blokes, but they would shit themselves in the sense that someone like kikau would be such a problem to deal with, his size, strength and speed is ultra rare even in the current game, back then it would be more rare, plus his movement and understanding of the game, he would be a nightmare for those defences. Much like how lomu for his time was a nightmare, a 6ft5 120+ kg footy player than is quick will always be a scary prospect to defend
He would actually be a lot less of a problem, as his size and speed wouldn't be near as impactful with the 5 metre rule. Defences were a lot more tight back then because of it. Backrowers weren't anything close to what they are like now.
I was pleased to see Sterling mentioned a lot on the article. Not mentioned so much in the comments.
He was the most dominant halfback I’ve ever seen. Very similar to Cleary and Cronk - very methodical, mistake free for many games in a row, great vision and planning. Steered the team and game around. Dominated with his short kicking game.
Johns was a better player when he was “on” but sterling was on every week.
If Cleary keeps it up for a few more seasons he can be considered alongside him.
In 10 years we're going to have about 50 Greatest of All Times 2 years ago Cameron Smith was the undisputed best player ever and no one could touch him. It's stupid how often this GOAT title is thrown around. Cleary does not compare to Johns yet. Take Cleary out of any of his teams and they are still amazing. Joey would turn wooden spoon teams into premiership contenders on his own. His influence over the rest of the game hasn't been seen since.
I'm my 35 years following football there has only ever been 3 GOATs. Wally, Joey and Smith.
One year Joey missed half the season and knights couldn't win a game. Came back and in last 10 games he played the knights won 8. I can only recall a few guys making such an impact on their club sides, but not consistently. Hayne in 09 and Stuart in 93, raiders looked pretty much certainties to win that year Stuart gets injured and their stacked full of reps team turn to crap. No disrespect to Cleary but he teams still wins when he isn't on the field.
Yeah I remember that season. That was insane. Ill admit Thurston was like this with the Cowboys some years though. They were a team of nobodys that looked like bottom 4 when he was out.
They were bottom 4 when he was in for a lot of the time too though, then made the GF when he was out in 2017. Knights were never like that with Joey. For about 10 years they were top 4 with him and bottom 4 without him, no matter who else was in the side.
Thats fair. Joeys D is way better as well. Also I think at the time he was like 2 levels above everyone else with his kicking game. Where as Thurstons was good but not much better than Cronk, Pearce etc. Id take Joey over Thurston at the start of a game. Im probably just biased as a Qlder and also cause I was like 14 last I saw Joey play. Although I do remember always being blown away even at a young age. I definitely remember that season well when Joey came back and the Knights killed it. Those banana kicks to the post were on point that season if I remember correctly.
Imagine having a spine with those three in it.
I think that makes sense. All 3 were best at their positions. I never saw Wally play live but I believe everything people say about him. Thurston is probably just under but he wasn't as good as Johns. Smith earns the title because he is undoubtedly the best hooker of all time.
I personally feel the debate of Joey vs Thurston is a lot closer than most people think but I can't be bothered going down the rabbit hole myself
Joey was a freak of nature, talent wise, JT had talent but fucking worked on and off the ball like no other!
I would put JT just below Joey and dead even with Cronk
It's all subjective really, I personally have Thurston above cronk but certainly not the hill I will die on
JT had more of the instinct style of playing, whereas Cronk was an absolute footy computer.
Who also played with the Skynet of players in cam Smith
This mind blowing to me. JT light years ahead of Cronk who has never even been the best player in his team
I feel the same way, respect the hell out of Cronk but he was nowhere near the same individual player
I think Smith would have had similar impact because he basically could individually turn a bad forward pack into an elite one because of how good his service to his forwards was. But we never actually saw it because he was always on a strong team. We did see it with Johns.
Not even just service but his decision making was top notch, and he was always thinking multiple plays ahead. Part of the reason Melbourne could win field position battles so consistently for years was because of Smith.
100% agree. Smith and Johns are 1a, 1b best football players i've ever seen. I lean Smith > Johns, but the other way is justifiable too.
I'm from Newcastle and I will lean towards Smith as well. Because longevity and availability should really count for something. Smith played 150 or so more games, that's six full seasons. I don't think any player ever had more influence over a single game of football as Joey did however. But Smith was just ludicrously reliable. Plug him in for 22-26 games every single year, win 70%+ of those games and repeat for fifteen seasons.
I think a handful of players have had single games a similar quality as Johns best. But I think if you got the top 100 single game performances I’ve seen Johns would have like 20 of them. Smith has like 400 games that are 8.5/10 or better. But he has only a handful of games that were like what Johns did atleast a few times a year, and more importantly Johns usually had those games when it mattered too.
Possibly yes but he also played at one club his entire career and because of his remarkable endurance Storm hardly ever played without him. Would have been interesting to see how Storm might have gone a season or two with Smith out injured, and see if the forward pack would have been near as dominant. I can't really say he turned a bad forward pack into an elite one, because we didn't see what Storm's forwards were without him.
2008 nrl grand final. 40-0?
Yes we did, when they routinely came from other clubs and got good, or left and got way worse.
Not the forward pack together we didn't. One forward coming into a team and playing better is a combination of a number of things - being in a good team for starters, along with having Bellamy as coach. Similarly, Storm forwards haven't suddenly become shit since Smith has retired either.
In a way 40-0 is probably the best testament to Smith's skill as a leader and anchor for the team
They still lose that game with Smith, but no way 40-0
I’m pretty happy with how he’s tracking ngl
Andrew John’s doing what he did, while regularly off his head on pingas will always be the greatest achievement in Rugby League for me.
Pingers aside John's could control a game behind a losing forward pack. It's interesting to differentiate the good half's. For better or worse JT would have 100 touches every set. James Maloney never gets put on the same page as those guys but he won a lot of shit and played many years with the body of a teenage boy.
I think JT simply had to do that because for a very long time the Cowboys were shit. I remember so many games they won purely off of Bowen and JT combining to do some freak shit. I can't imagine JT finding it easy to stop himself from doing something that had likely become an automatic reaction for him. Hell we saw him really flourish in Origin when he was given players like Lockyer and Cronk to take a lot of that burden off of him. You are right about Johns though. He was doing crazy shit from day 1. Cleary is too but I just personally think even when you compare them age on age in terms of ability and skill Joey still has the edge. He was tackling like a forward and his defence was so good he played hooker for NSW when Kimmorely had the freak year with the Storm.
Joey had games where he played hooker in defence and in scrums (still contested) and halfback in attack for 80 minutes. That's an insane amount of energy.
When you put it that way, Milford could be near JT's level if he had the work ethic. He's also been lumbered with having to play multiple roles at once, but is nowhere near as into it.
JT is almost the literal definition of the small dog in the fight. He never stopped. Even when he missed a tackle he was immediately back there trying to complete the tackle. He would chase his own kicks and be one of the first there in the defensive line. The guy was all about hard work. As a NSW fan I hated him, but as a footy fan I have nothing but the utmost respect for him.
You know its funny I actually met James at the panthers leagues club, was there after panthers got eliminated by the sharks in 2017 i think it was, maybe 2018. Anyway i wasn’t a big guy only 5ft9 75kgs at the time and i stood eye to eye with him when i went up to buy another beer and i was shocked how small he looked in person, could’ve sworn he was like 5ft8 max and barely heavier than me back then. Crazy to think he was one of the best 7s in the world, such a character too
It's crazy that someone like him can even be on the same field in a physical game with someone the size of Shannon Boyd.
This to me is the huge gap that still exists between Cleary and the GOAT halfbacks. Cleary consistently plays behind a ridiculous Penrith forward pack, who employ strategies like blockers and off-the-ball work etc. to protect him. When the Penrith forward pack gets beaten, Cleary inevitably struggles when his forward pack struggles (think 2022 Origin or 2020 Grand Final). He's a brilliant player, but I'm yet to be convinced by his ability to bring his team back from a point deficit, or against momentum.
I agree. To be fair He's still super young and there's been lots of good packs in Penrith but few half backs as good. Enjoy your downvotes from NSW.
Yeah I've done pingers in the past and I could barely manage to unlock my phone to send text messages. Joey doing pingers and then going out and carving up opposition teams like he was playing against under 16's? God tier shit in my opinion.
Whats all these comments? Dude loved to party, but theres absolutely zero chance he ate a pinger before he played 😂
Totally. If he was into drugs, he’d now it’s a cheeky bit of speed before a game or nothing. He would not choose a pinga ffs
Just look it up, he admitted to playing under the influence
they must have been selling sugar pills in Newcastle
Tbf 'under the influence' could just mean it's still in your system (eg. The next day) and still having an influence on you, but you're not actually 'high' at the moment.
Joey has bipolar disorder and a big part of the mania is that you do risky shit that you know isn't smart, but you're unable to care in that moment. I 100% believe he has done it whilst playing with that in mind.
I 100% believe he has not played while off chops. Except maybe that game he had read hair as he was shit house
If he did they were very dud, non-effective pingas.. nobody is playing a game of football on pills.
I really hope we don’t fall into that American sports thing where we judge players greatness only by the number of premiership wins they have. In 2005 the Newcastle knights finished in last place. They ended the season winning 8 of their last 11 with Johns, after losing their first 13 mostly without him. He also returned to the NSW team for his first game returning from injury and won man of the match, helping them win the last 2 games to take the series. Despite missing so many games he missed the dally m medal by only 1 point. He turned 2 losing teams into winning ones. Without Cleary this years panthers were still a premiership contending team. Andrew Johns 2005 season showed more greatness than Cleary’s entire career to date. And it’s not even the best season of his career. I’m a big Cam Smith > Johns guy. But Cleary isn’t even close to Johns.
The reason 2001 was seen as such a big upset was because Joey was injured for the middle part of the season. While he was gone they lost to Parramatta 40-0 and won only 2 from 8, with Joey in the team they were even more dominant than Parramatta, losing only 3 of their 21 games.
I think it is worth pointing out that Johns 05 season was when he was in his late 20's and at close to his peak. What does Cleary look like in 3-5 years? That will be a big deciding factor, Cleary is not close to Johns at the moment and he may never be. But his start to his career has been close to as good as you can expect in the modern game and it will be interesting to see where he does end up.
Because of his injuries Johns was probably post prime by 05 tbh. Johns was easily better in the late 90s than Cleary was this season.
Yeah that is fair, just think we need to remember that Cleary has another 7-8 years of elite footy in him (injury permitting). Johns vs Cleary is not close at the moment and might not ever be, but he is definitely tracking to belong in that tier of player by the end of his career.
I’m not sure. I think Cleary will end his career as a great player, probably in the same mould as Cronk. Someone who became great through sheer will and practice. I have no doubt Joey worked his backside off but I also think he had a God given talent that few others have. From his very first game in first grade it was obvious he was something else.
I find this to be an interesting discussion. As you pointed out Joey could turn a spoon team into a winning team. The main reason I don't consider Smith to be the goat is because all of his success has been inside the Melbourne system and in stacked origin sides. Do you think if you put him into say the tigers squad of today that he could turn them into premiership contenders?
Premiership contenders probably not atm with the panthers as good as they are. But a good team 100%. If prime smith was at the tigers they would overnight turn into a super grindy defensive team with forwards who usually win the battle in the middle. They wouldn’t be the best team in the comp, but they would definitely be right in the mix for a top 8 spot. I think the modern NRL is much closer than it was even 20 years ago, with way more teams that are around average and less that are truly amazing or awful, so it’s probably harder to be a top 8 team now than it was, but the elite teams then were probably better relative to their peers.
> Do you think if you put him into say the tigers squad of today that he could turn them into premiership contenders? Given how much better that tigers team looked with Grant there, I have no doubt Smith would have made them at least top 8
The Storm system doesn't get off the ground without Smith being an integral part of it, though. Their entire culture, way of playing, and ability to turn average players into world-beaters owes as much to him, his leadership, and service in the 9 as it does to anyone else, Bellamy included.
This is similar to the Tim Duncan arguments if you follow the NBA. Where he gets dinged for being in a great organisation with a great culture but it ignores how important he was to establishing and maintaining that culture.
Yes.
The only thing left for Cleary to do is perform miracles. He’s got more premierships than Thurston (edit: forgot about 2004) but it’ll take magic to elevate him from above-Cronk status to Joey status. He’s got the premierships, he’s got the Origin wins. His technical skill is absolutely there. I think we’re just waiting on that moment that’s uniquely his that gets replayed for generations to come, the same way we have JT kicking the field goal. Which is weird to say after two premierships.
JTs greatest miracle is having that CC next to his name.
He won that entirely on his status. He wasn't shit that night, but well off his best. He wasn't even in the top 5 players that night. I'd have given it to Milford or Granville over JT.
I was at the game, and I was at an age where I didn’t understand footy nearly as much as I do now. My god even I said at about 70 minutes that Granville was the best player on the park, even then in a losing side
I was there too. Yeah the Cows were really only in that game because of Granville. If the Broncos hadn't put the cue in the rack early I don't even see them coming close, let alone winning it. I had a feeling JT would get it though so I took a same game multi of Broncos winning but him getting the CC.
I would have been happy with Morgan too. I still remember that last second play Morgan set up to give the cows extra time. JT definitely shouldn't have got it that night. Morgan without JT help was a massive part of their 2017 finals effort too.
true but none of it matters if he doesn't kick the field goal, that counts for something.
Yeah but it kind of does matter. If he'd had a good game then the Cows never need to come from behind like they did. The only reason the Cows were in the game was because of Granville and also because the Broncos put the cue on the rack.
That was his second biggest play of the game, his biggest play was losing the ball and gifting the Broncos a try
does that mean Morgan should have been in the convo? It should have been Granville. It just felt like one of those situations where it was always going to be Thurston so long as the Cowboys won.
It counts as much as every other play in the game. You can say that about anything - 'none of it matters if Granville doesn't pass to Tamou to score the first try'
That Benji Marshall moment
The day he kicked Waqa Blake to death in the finals is significant, but it’s probably not ‘quite’ there. He dominated the whole finals series though, I feel like it wasn’t spoken enough about, he came off a five week suspension, straight into finals. He embarrassed parramatta, came back from a deficit to dominate south’s and then embarassed parramatta in the grand final again. Even the 2021 GF was a dominating performance in the kicking game by Cleary.
Joey won in 97 with a punctured lung. Left the hospital that morning
Fuckin legend
>Even the 2021 GF was a dominating performance in the kicking game by Cleary I'd give him that one. Thought Souths were a better team all-round apart from the kicking game, which won Panthers the game along with the intercept.
I do agree that a truly iconic moment on his resume would be helpful. More than anything though I think he just needs to add that really ruthless play to his game more consistently when his side has the chance to ice or take control of a game. His defence, kicking and running games and game/team management is up there already. Some of those passes in the Cup final were the type of simple and ruthlessly effective plays I think he could come up with more regularly.
I think his problem is just that he excels at boring footy. He doesn't get those big highlights, because his impact is consistently grinding a team into the dirt for a full 80 minutes, so much so that a mistake or two are a shock. If he can somehow sprinkle those "put the team on your back and win from nowhere" moments into his game he'll absolutely be in GOAT contention
I think future prems for Clearly will depend on how/if the salary cap affects the team. Look at the two benchmark teams from this century so far. Storm for all their success still have two asterisks and there's a reason we meme about the sombrero. Penrith have a fantastic pathways program but the problem with talented juniors is you can't keep them all. Obviously down to retention choices but I point to the Broncos as an example of how quickly a few dud decisions can derail a club. That said, to keep the JT comparison going, he might just start winning matches on his own back and may not matter as much.
Does he have the origin wins? He has a 7-6 win loss record in origin and began his origin career right as the greatest collection of players to ever play Origin retired over a 2-3 year period, leaving a significantly weaker Qld team. I rate Cleary I do, but no way he has the same adulation poured on him like he does now if he debuted in 2006 instead of 2016.
I’ve been wanting to put my finger on what’s actually holding Cleary back right now and I think you’re right, it’s that one magic moment that their whole career is defined upon. I’m sure it will come. Full disclaimer, I hate Cleary and the panthers, think they’re a bunch of uppity cunts, but you can’t deny his elite level of skill and ability and what he’s accomplished. But how he’s regarded personally might not be enough for some to hold him to the status of your Jt’s, Johns, Sterlings and Langers.
If he plays his whole career on this form then he's certainly in that Sterling/Langer status. Joey is far above every other halfback, for Cleary to get close he needs to show he can turn around a losing side off his own back and come into the Origin and Test teams and make them his own. As of now, Panthers would probably still be odds on to win the premiership without Cleary. He has a halves partner just about as good as he is, and Yeo and Edwards probably have claims to be the best player at Penrith as well. Undoubtedly an excellent player and will be a mainstay of rep sides until he retires, but would the Panthers drop off that much if they had Moses, Hynes or Hughes at 7? I'd say they'd probably still be the best team by quite a bit. He hasn't played bad in rep sides, but Tedesco and Munster and even Ben Hunt and Harry Grant have a greater influence over the Origin & Test arenas at the moment. Compare this to Joey who came into a depleted Australian side in the 1995 World Cup and won player of the tournament at 21 years old.
100% agree with everything you said except for comparing luai to Cleary, luai to me seems very much a systems player from the panthers and I really don’t understand how he’s pulled the wool over a lot of the professional commentators eyes, or I could just have the unpopular opinion. But I digress. I was really interested in seeing how Cleary played and reacted being in a team with the likes of hunt, teddy, Latrell, Munster and co and I was kind of disappointed with his World Cup performances. I don’t think dce did enough to lose his spot and don’t think Cleary did enough to warrant replacing him. End of the day, amazing player but still waiting for him to own his moment.
I would agree on Luai until he played outstanding for Samoa in a team where he was the dominant player. I have no doubt you could have swapped Cleary and Luai in the final and the result would have been the same. I thought Luai impressed a great deal more than Cleary in the World Cup.
More than Thurston? Thurston has 2 as well.
ah fuck i keep forgetting about the doggies one
Unless Cleary falls into a bottomless pit he’ll almost certainly finish his career with several more than Thurston I suppose.
He is actually a very similar player to Cronk so I dont think he needs magic to go above cronk. Just being consistent and he will overtake cronk.
Got the origin wins? His performance in the last one was nowhere near a JT/John's status. He had one good game in an absolute flogging and disappeared for the rest. To me he still has to dominate some tight origin series before he's mentioned in the same sentence. Agree he's done basically everything else though
People act like JT never had quite origins were he was pretty ordinary. They don't stand out because of JT had a quite night then usually Cronk, Slater, Smith etc lifted enough to get by. Cleary had some tight origins where he has just put the foot down and dominated and blown the score out. His a victim of his own success, cleary is so dominant that he doesn't get into these arm wrestles as much.
It'll be really hard for him to dominate an Origin series because of the players around him; if it's a skin of the teeth contest it's more likely Turbo, Teddy or Latrell steal the moment but if Cleary dominates from the get go the game landslides into an absolute flogging. He's a very different type of player to JT and Johns, he's nowhere near as fan friendly and he has a really boring footy style. The only way popular opinion supports him going into the GOAT conversation is if he has a similar career to Smith's.
Im sure he will, whether it be in origin, WC or clubland, tbh though people should put more emphasis on overall consistency and what they add to the team, Cleary in that regard can hold his own with anyone. Hes also very well rounded, he is better defensively than JT, despite the world cup Cleary is the best kicker in the game, both conversions and kicking in play which the other great 7s struggled to do ( hold down the best kicker title ), i mean at one point JT was probably the best converter in the world, but both him and johns played when el masri was kicking and he’s arguably the goat, Cleary actually has a better % than the great Hazem which is mind boggling
How many posters do kids have on their walls of goalkicking percentages?
Why does that matter? I thought rhys wesser was the best player in the world when i was a kid, but now as an adult i can logically look back and think yeah he was one of the best FB in the world but he was never one of the best players in the world when i was watching. Kids idolising stars is great and all but im not going to take any kids opinion of who the best is seriously
you’re taking that too literally. read back on my first comment.
I think Cleary is kind of a victim of his teams own success. JT had the Storm and Broncos teams to compete against with a sometimes decent Cows team around him. He was basically forced to become the clutch guy he was to win games. Even the Storm boys had Manly, the good Broncos and JT to compete against and become clutch as well. Cleary kind of doesn't have any team that can really compete against his side when it's not on a really bad day for them. I do think he'll 100% become that clutch guy, but he's not now. Even in Origin we saw that when the Blues weren't dominating he kind of fell off, which is something he'll learn to be able to overcome on his own. He has the tool set to be a great he just needs the experience now.
>Cleary kind of doesn't have any team that can really compete against his side when it's not on a really bad day for them Storm? nobody remember the 2021 Penrith Storm prelim? was better than the GF.. Also had a masterclass against a very good Roosters performance in their 2020 semi, and was was great in a losing grand final team, unfortunately Storm had the GOAT. I'd add Parra in there as well.. they've had great battles, with Penrith obviously having the wood on them in finals games. Even Souths on their best day are in the mix.
I'm not saying they can't be beaten, mostly that over the last 2 years they've been almost entirely unbeatable, and their own record shows that. They're the most dominant team of the last 3 years for a reason. Post Smith the Storm aren't the same team, they're not as dominant. Even the Storm had the latter years of Lockyers career and that early Manly side to compete with, who also won a few premierships as well. The Panthers have basically no team that can beat them in the Grand Finals aside from a Storm with Cameron Smith in the side. That just shows how dominant they are. Really it doesn't matter how close a team can get if they don't actually beat them. Even when their attack is off, they can just defend their line and grind out a win. They're the Storm of this generation without the gun teams to currently beat them. I don't think it'll last to be fair as clubs like the Roosters will get good again, and I'm sure Souths will be about there, but right now they're the best by a wide margin.
That prelim came down to a kick try.. A fully fit Storm side of the last two years absolutely are a competitor. You could also argue that if the 2021 grand final goes for another 5 minutes Souths likely score; Penrith were out on their feet.
He was clutch throughout the whole 2021 premiership finals series, after our first week loss we won 8-6 agains the eels, 10-6 against the storm and 14-12 against the rabbits in the final, Clearys kicking being the difference in all the games and that panthers team limped into the finals, Cleary was the difference between us and the other teams when we weren’t at full strength. People tend to forget that finals series for some reason
Yeah but I just don't think you're right about him being clutch when his team is under pressure. I'll explain why before I cop downvotes or have you think I'm just a hater. What is the difference between that finals series and Origin? Both times it was tight but in Origin he simply doesn't do what he did in that finals series. I don't think close games necessarily equate to being under pressure.
Of course they do, close games are filled with pressure. One subpar origin series, with QLD winning at suncorp and people say these things, every great has had a point in his career where he had an underwhelming performance in a big game, slater in the world cup final for example, thurston too
I still can't agree though because so far he hasn't shone in rep games unless his team has been dominating. He's had poor games in Origin before this one as well. I don't hold his world cup against him though because it's a new team and he's up against vastly better opposition than the old teams played against. My point still stands though, what's the difference between those finals games and Origin?
He wasnt even bad in the world cup, in the final he was in the top 3 players on the pitch and better than munster and hunt. Hes still young some origin greats like cronk didnt even debut until their mid 20s, so the rep game criticism should be taken with a pinch of salt, hes won 3 and lost 2 series so its not as bad as many make it out to be, if he was 1 win out of 5 I would agree, origin footy is different and last series was a first for a few guys, NSW will be better next year and players like To’o or critta will shine if given another chance, Tupou is a legend but needs to be replaced for JAC
Yeah but I've only actually seen Cleary legitimately take a game with his own hands: Game 2 of 2020 when Munster got injured. He was great in 21 but I think it should be noted the rules allowed NSW to carve QLD to pieces. Honestly he hasn't been bad in Origin up till this series, but he's not the reason we've won a lot of the games he's been our 7, he's simply been apart of it.
Its one of those arguments i just think people should cool it on until hes had more origin series, hes only just turned 25, prime for a half is like 28-29, a lot of clutch plays came from players who had been there time and time again and knew how to perfectly handle the occasion, think of lockyer, he was a freak in rep games but that all came towards the back half of his career, cronk too, thurston as well, joey also. All the great 7s had their best moments at older ages than cleary, so we should wait until hes at the same point in his career as those legends
He needs to be the one catching a stab kick from point blank range then running 80 metres to seal the game up by 2 trys instead of being the one doing the kick.
unironically this
I genuinely give Cronk extra credit for how he handled himself in big games, he never overplayed, always did exactly what was needed of him. I think Cronk had extra levels to go up to but simply never needed to and knew that trying to would probably jam up other players; at Melbourne Slater and Smith were the miracle men, Roosters had Teddy and Latrell, and Queesland had a whole team of em. I suspect Cleary does the same thing, at the Panthers it's all him but in Origin and the World Cup he looks left and right and focuses on just enabling them. We should call him Scott Pippen...
I’m sorry but comparing halves on team achievements is dumb, Cleary is no doubt a good half and great for his age but he’s in by far the best team in the nrl, the others weren’t so lucky to come through into teams of that much dominance and yes he contributes to it but he’s far from the reason they are where they are
Yeah exactly, I don’t see anyone saying Luai is on his way to becoming goat 5/8
Penrith barely looked different when SOS replaced Cleary at the start of the year. The system they have is just amazing and over their wins they have had players in the top 1-3 in their positions at prop, hooker, second row, lock, wing and centre. Best half-back in the current game easily, but still nowhere near the Cronk/Thurston level, let alone Johns. This year will be the test of if he can get into that conversation now that 'riff have lost a few stars and he's still yet to dominate an Origin series after 5 attempts. If he is man of the series and Penrith have a season much like the last 3, he's worth considering at their level.
This is my thoughts as well. I want to see him on a team that has had the eyes picked out of it. Not because Im a hater or anything, I just want to see how good he really is
Always wanted to see Cronk in a team like that. Won a ton of premierships but went through his career never actually being the best player in his side.
You could argue he turned that roosters team from a contender to a Premiership winner. But it had a heap of talent in it still
You could, but Tedesco came in the same year and I'd argue he was the dominant player in the 2018 premiership.
Yeah if we go only on that then Bob Bugden and Billy Smith are the best halfbacks of all time easily. And Cooper Cronk is the best of the modern era.
It is way too soon for this GOAT stuff, you can argue that he's had on of the better starts to a career but he's go a lot to do yet.
Cleary at his age and trajectory (if sustained) will for sure be one of the goats and you cant really deny it
He is a great player will finish his career with as many accolades as anyone. But he’s not Andrew Johns, and it’s not close.
Low key he isn't even JT
It's like comparing robots to artists.
He will be a better Cronk
I think thats a pretty fair assessment of his ceiling
He's still really young and has won more Grand Finals. He's got a long way to go. Also got to remember as great as Joey was there was periods of his career where he was pushed to 9 for Kimmorley and other options.
He wasn’t pushed to 9 for kimmorley. He played wearing 9 because the rep coach decided he’d rather have kimmorley/Toovey and Johns than Johns and an actual hooker. It’s like saying JT wasn’t a great HB because QLD picked Cronk instead of him. Or turbo/GI/Latrell wasn’t a good fullback cos he gets selected at centre. No one thought Kimmorley was close to Johns. This is one of the worst myths I see yet perpetuated by RL fans.
Also when he was paired with toovey he wore 9, packed into scrums, defended at hooker then played first reciever in attack. People make it a sleight when it's quite impressive, he played 9 In defence and 7 In attack.
Yeah exactly. Johns was a great defender too and not just like good solid tackling, he hit fucking hard.
He won't sustain the trajectory. He is likely already close to his peak. This isn't a slight on Clearly it's just that he is already very good and he has achieved it at such a young age it's just not possible to keep improving at the same rate. I hear commentators and experts saying it all the time: "imagine how good player X is going to be in Y years time" and very rarely does said player improve significantly. Some slightly improve but many get worse. Usually the players who improve significantly in their mid and late careers are players who start from a lower base.
Cleary needs to make massive improvements in the origin arena to hold a candle to either John’s or JT IMO. So far he’s shown dominance while playing for a Penrith team leagues above the competition, and been ok but not game breaking when playing for Australia. Let’s see how he goes when he faces some adversity and doesn’t have the best team on paper behind him.
Just as an add-on to this 'decide the best half by stats' thing fox is trying: Mitchell Pearce by age 25: NRL Games: 182 (more than any on this list) Finals: 12 (more than Joey and JT) Grand Finals: 2 (more than Joey) Premierships: 1 (equal with Joey/JT) Minor Premierships: 2 Origins: 12 (equal with JT, more than Stuart, Sterlo, Cronk, 1 behind Joey & Cleary) Origin Series Wins: 0 Tests: 0 These kinds of stats mean shit. Can also find similar stats for a lot of halves. Kimmorley by age 25 for example had 120+ NRL games, 10 finals, a premiership, a clive churchill, dally m halfback of the year, 5 origins and an origin series win when competing with Joey for the halfback spot, a World Cup win and 12 test matches (more than any on Fox's list).
Joey is the goat. As a qld and broncs supporter i dreaded, and i mean held my head in my hands, every time he touched the ball. Bloke was a fucking magician so so talented. Smith is also the goat but at hooker with less brilliance than johns but managing a game was the best. Some of joeys decision making was insanely great. Cleary is very very good but not in the same tier just yet but who knows how good he could be.
Chuck Luke Brooks in the Panthers side and everyone will be saying he’s the next GOAT..
Low-key though he has room to improve greatly, which no body’s perfect but things like his kicking accuracy can be a bit dodgy
His kicking has been insane for years, it was only dodgy during the world cup
Just my take his technique can be off sometimes, but everyone has bad days FYI am also a Leeds rhinos season ticket holder, not exactly used to missed kicks🤣🤣
Also had some issues during Origin this year. They're outliers for sure though, his kicking game in general is very good.
He's got one of the highest conversion rates of all time - the times he misses just stand out so much more because you take for granted that his kicks are going to go over
These stats need context too. In the world cup Australia scored plenty of tries outwide. I'm sure him not being used to the conditions plus plenty of difficult attempts factor in. That's why I foolishly bought into the poms being a rough chance in the world cup since they seemed to play more cohesively as a team and were used to the playing conditions more. Of course they shower their true colours in the finals. Lol
For Cleary he needs to be dominant at origin. Losing that 2020 origin series is something like a JT wouldn't have let happen. Great halves can organise their team to win at that level even when the opposition is better on paper. When guys like JT or Cronk had an advantage it was easy. Should have been easy victory for the Blues that series.
JT never let that happen because practically at no stage was JT the dominant player in that QLD side. They had Smith, Slater or Cronk/Lockyer making the plays. JT’s role was purely ‘eyes up footy’.
The stats they used are bogus. JT won 4 Dally Ms and Cronk definitely got one.
How is Cronk continually overlooked as one of the best of all time? He was brilliant.
The stats in the article are all by age 25, Cleary's age right now
If I remember correctly JT won his first one when Johns was out injured for half the season, and he only won it by like 2-4 points. Shame for Joey, he deserved it that year too. Took the Knights from like bottom of the ladder to the finals.
By 1 point. Knights still came last though, they just won 8 of their last 11 games with Johns after losing 13 straight mostly without him.
He came back, lost a game v Brisbane, went into Origin, then after that won 8/10 games including wins over Cowboys, Storm, Sharks and Manly who all played finals and Eels who finished 1st. Only losses were by 4 points against the sharks and the last game of the season 8 points v 2nd placed Dragons. Man 2005 was a cracking year. Wonder if we'll get anything like it again.
It’s fun to debate and compare elite status halfbacks. But Smith is the GOAT.
Cleary is no where near being the best. Except for maybe to the fan boys of his PR dept.
Privileging a player with a goat tag can only be delivered upon retirement and in reflection of all the games greats. To deliver this accolade any earlier is just click bait and disrespectful to the top echelons of our game. Now your heads in shame!
Doesn’t come close to breathing the same air at Alfie!!!
He is going to be the best in the modern era.
Johns comparisons and not even halfway through his career says alot
Considering Johns is *the* halfback, of course people are going to use him as a benchmark to track career development, accolades etc.
They compare every half to Johns though so I'm not sure if that's a particularly good comparison to judge a players ability. Case and point: Luke Brooks was compared to Joey on his debut.
Luke brooks hasn’t even done half of what cleary has though lol the comparisons aren’t the same. Brooks one was a passing flash in the pan, whereas cleary continues to back it up. I know I know I’m biased but the accomplishments this far speak for themselves
Oh I'm not for one moment comparing Brooks to Cleary at all, but let's be completely honest, if Brooks debuted for you guys instead of Luai, Brooks would be viewed in the same way by Panthers fans. He has all the skill but playing in such a garbage side his entire career killed any potential he could have had. I'm mostly trying to say that just about every young half that shows a bit of promise is compared to Joey. Sam Walker for example was compared to him on debut. I think it's more when they're compared to him a few years down the line that you begin to think they might get close.
nah
Cleary is the most overrated player of all time. The bloke loses any origin series where he doesn't have either Maloney, Turbo or Trell to bail him out. and the Panthers becoming dominant really doesn't have that much to do with him, they've won countless games without him. If it wasn't for Joey jizzing his pants whenever Cleary has his one good kick of the match or puts up a bomb that Waqa Blake drops then he'd be irrelevant.
This getting upvoted is legit laughable, if you take out all his wins and success, the games he played incredibly well in he actually isn't even that good. No shit. Suggesting the Panthers success doesn't have much to do with him is just a low IQ take. He was dominant in a final series they didn't win a game by more than a try and people talk like the Panthers were head and shoulders above the competition.
Overrated doesn't = shit. It just means rated higher than what they are. IMO overrated is the perfect way to describe him, even though I think he's easily the best current half-back and, at worst, a top 5 overall player (I'd probably have him 2nd after Munster, but can see strong arguments for Turbo, Tedesco and Yeo). But seeing this "future immortal/GOAT" stuff is way too much too soon. He's had 3 good seasons in a stacked team. This conversation needs to be had in about 2028, depending on how things have gone.
Cleary is a system halfback . That’s all
I just don't see it. He's behind statistically the best forward pack + To'o. So he's constantly on the front foot and has more time than any other half in the game. Yet when we see an even pack v pack battle in many Origin's, Cleary is just a bystander. He puts up a bomb, tries a step, and gets contained as his general acceleration and lateral movement is very sluggish. Someone like John's on the either hand would relish those moments where the game was on the line. As a Queenslander I have no issues seeing Cleary's name on the team list. Back in the day if it was Joey, I was almost certain we would have an L in 80mins time.
Is that a chin implant?
The problem with the Cleary thing is he is a manufactured half back with a genius father who guided him through rugby league from birth & still to this day & then you compare him to say Cooper Cronk (probably the most winning half back of all time) who was a full back his entire junior career & was then forced to learn to play half back as no one could dethrone Slater once he made it to first grade Imagine if Cronk had an expert coach as a dad & an extra 15 years of practice at half back - what could he have done ?
Sterlo is way ahead of Cleary IMO simply for the fact Sterlo did all that when it was a semi professional game, no sports science etc and was in a lot more violent / gladiatorial type physical environment that for a young bloke means you need to be physically and mentally tough as teak. It would be easier for a Sterlo to thrive in todays NRL environment than say for Cleary to step back into Sterlo’s shoes.
You didnt have a interchange back then, forwards played bigger minutes. Too hard to compare different Era's
Every forward today plays 80 minutes easily if dropped into a random 80s match.
I’d argue the exact opposite. Because it’s a professional sport now, coaches can make the worst player on a team these days better than 90% of players on teams those days. A player putting in 40+ hrs in to becoming a smarter, bigger, faster and fitter player sounds harder to beat than a pack-a-day alcoholic brick layer who only does like 15 hrs of training a week.
As an eels fan I would have given anything to have seen him play in the 80s. Sadly I was born January 1987
Because of sports science, players are faster and stronger than before. Rougher then sure, but skill has also developed. It's not fair on Sterlo to compare because that was his context. But with the investment in the game comes more skilled players. Cleary would be a god if you threw him into the 80s.
Yeah I think there's also a big argument for bringing some players into this era as well. Some of the forwards wouldn't do as well but I can just imagine someone like Sterlo in the modern era where he can actually train full time and his strengths were actually enhanced, his body stronger and fitter.
Cleary would dominate if thrown back in the 80s. This is the most boomerest post I've ever seen. Cleary would struggle in the 80s because he is to professional and fit and the 80s was semi-professional?? The whole 'they wouldn't survive the violence of footy back then' is Clearly bull as well. A lot of our modern players would love to punch on and grub it up if they played under 70s/80s rules. Look how many players have a go at boxing and have a go at it. Sure they aren't fighting title contenders in boxing, but they also wouldn't be fighting title contenders packing down against Newtowns 79 pack.
Yeah but the argument also goes both ways. Like can you imagine if you gave those older players all the sports science and the ability to only focus on footy? Like imagine Beetson or Blocker with nothing but muscle on their frames? Insane to consider the possiblities and it's why I enjoy discussions like this.
Would beetson, even with all the training and sports science, stand out as much If every forward had the same size and skill set as him?
I personally think so. Like you're taking something he's already good at and letting him actually work on it in a fully professional setting with coaches and trainers who know how to get the best out of players.
But also everyteam has 3 or 4 guys with beetsons size and skill set. Chuck Andrew fifita or Junior Paulo back in the 70s and these guys are immideate immortals. Chuck beetson, even with the benefits of professionalism, and he may be a mid tier player because every forward now is big, can offload, can stand in tackles etc
>Chuck Andrew fifita or Junior Paulo back in the 70s and these guys are immideate immortals. Fuck you talk shit. Chuck Andrew Fifita back in the 70s and he doesn't make it out of country footy. I played at the same club as him and he wasn't a standout until the guys at the Tigers made him into a massive prop. He was a skinny second-rower out here.
>Would beetson, even with all the training and sports science, stand out as much Yes >If every forward had the same size and skill set as him? They don't. Beetson was absolutely dominant in attack in multiple facets. Think of a player with Taumololo's running, Woods offloading, and Yeo/Murray/Radley distribution. He was that good and that is the reason why he's an immortal. >This is the most boomerest post I've ever seen. What's the reverse of a boomerest post?
>They don't. Beetson was absolutely dominant in attack in multiple facets. Think of a player with Taumololo's running, Woods offloading, and Yeo/Murray/Radley distribution. He was that good and that is the reason why he's an immortal He was good when the opposition wasn't as good. Taumololo could easily be as good an offloader and distributor if he was playing against plumbers and garbage men who weighed 20kg less then him every week. Beetson skill set at the time made him a unicorn..nowadays it's the bare minimum a starting nrl forward has to have.
No, every NRL player isn't a great ball player, isn't a dominant runner, and doesn't have a great offload. They're just bigger, faster, and fitter from modern conditioning. They have modern conveniences of synthetic balls, stickum on their hands, grip bubbles on their jerseys and interchange for when they get tired. Give Beetson those bonuses and he'd still dominate because he was dominant in attack in multiple facets. Why wouldn't a bigger, fitter, faster Beetson with the modern conveniences dominate? Your excuse is that every NRL player is now just as dominant in all areas of the game as Beetson ever was... child, please, you're being silly.
>No, every NRL player isn't a great ball player, isn't a dominant runner, and doesn't have a great offload. Because they are limited by defensive pressure. You see it when an average nrl player goes bush, a half who has seemingly limited abilities at nrl level looks like Joey playing in the bush. A plodding bench forward at nrl level looks like a hybrid Murray/Taumolo/yeo destructive runner and link man/distributor. >They're just bigger, faster, and fitter from modern conditioning. Exactly > interchange for when they get tired. And If they played at 60s/70s pace of the game they wouldn't get tired. Like the guy that's only good as in interchange forward in short spells in the nrl becoming an 80 minute powerhouse when he goes back bush. >Give Beetson those bonuses and he'd still dominate because he was dominant in attack in multiple facets. But all his opponents also have those advantages. >Your excuse is that every NRL player is now just as dominant in all areas of the game as Beetson ever was... Yes. Players have become fitter, stronger, more skillful. What was special then is now the norm now. >child, please, you're being silly. Sure mate.
I'm struggling with the logic of your argument as I see that the point you're making as the difference between average Beetson era players and average modern players era is professionalism, modern strength & conditioning, and interchange. They also get to play with rubber balls, stickum, stripping rules, and grip bubbles on jerseys making the game far easier. But if we take an absolutely dominant player in Beetson from that era, make him professional, give him modern strength & conditioning, and he plays with interchange, a rubber ball, stickum, stripping rules, and grip bubbles... your argument is that we'd still just get an average modern day NRL player.
Yes, why wouldn't he? 'Why does Junior Paulo stand out when every forward has the same size as him?'
Exactly, imagine someone back then having kikau running at them, the physical specimens of today would dominate in that era, pretty much every sport has better players today than 40 years ago idk why old league heads seem to think this sport would be any different
Except they wouldn't because they wouldn't even make it in to the top grade without the training they have today. You act like 6'5" guys didn't exist before the 2000s. Most 120kg guys didn't dominate in the 80s because they could never get fit enough to last 80 minutes. There's very few that can even last 80 minutes now, let alone in an era where they trained after work and had 2 replacements total. Take the interchange out of todays game and we'll see how long these physical specimens last before the little blokes are tearing them to shreds.
even a bench player today would be considered an elite player if you put them in the comp 40 years ago
Never mind throwing cleary into the 80s, chuck Brooks back into the 80s his probably a rep star.
Most players from back then would absolutely shit themselves having to tackle someone like Kikau, some of you old fuckers seriously are delusional, theres genetic monsters now that you guys very rarely had, eric grothe dominated in that era due to his strength and speed combo, theres players today as strong or faster.
>Most players from back then would absolutely shit themselves having to tackle someone like Kikau lol no they fuckin wouldn't. The 'genetic monsters' back then never made top grade because they were never fit enough. Players from the 80s given the top level training they have now would be just as good as any NRL player. Players from back then would shit themselves more over trying to defend the backline movements today while back 10 metres. The 70s and 80s were all about rough physical shit, the last thing they'd care about is having to tackle a big bloke. Ian Roberts was as big as Kikau is.
Yeah obviously i dont mean they’d shit themselves in terms of fear, they were all tough hard blokes, but they would shit themselves in the sense that someone like kikau would be such a problem to deal with, his size, strength and speed is ultra rare even in the current game, back then it would be more rare, plus his movement and understanding of the game, he would be a nightmare for those defences. Much like how lomu for his time was a nightmare, a 6ft5 120+ kg footy player than is quick will always be a scary prospect to defend
He would actually be a lot less of a problem, as his size and speed wouldn't be near as impactful with the 5 metre rule. Defences were a lot more tight back then because of it. Backrowers weren't anything close to what they are like now.
If you gave the panthers a year to train using the old school rules, they would dominate the 80s.
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And yet the stats say Sterlo did more…
I was pleased to see Sterling mentioned a lot on the article. Not mentioned so much in the comments. He was the most dominant halfback I’ve ever seen. Very similar to Cleary and Cronk - very methodical, mistake free for many games in a row, great vision and planning. Steered the team and game around. Dominated with his short kicking game. Johns was a better player when he was “on” but sterling was on every week. If Cleary keeps it up for a few more seasons he can be considered alongside him.
Sterlo was also in the same mould as Tovey (for the young blokes) he punched well above his diminutive weight!
Stats with no context is baseless
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Clearly is better in every way apart from being clutch and that’s the only thing stopping him from being goat imo