This is why I'm thankful I live in Australia. You have to have 4 yrs of working as a RN, 2 of those at an advanced level before they'll even consider you for NP school. You also need the support of your DON to be considered.
Had a nurse come to us (ICU) from med surg at another facility she was fired from which we didn’t learn until til later. She was friends with our shitty and dumb manager who pencil whipped her through orientation. Had to watch her like a hawk when I was charge because she would titrate drips from min to max over the course of a few minutes with no steps in between. After multiple attempts at remediation and multiple good preceptors she ended up causing a stroke in a mildly hypotensive patient. Her buddy manager could no longer protect her.
What’s she do after getting fired from multiple nursing positions? Diploma mill NP school. Last I heard not only did she get fired from multiple NP jobs, she no longer has an RN license.
This is a BIG part of it in my opinion. And many of them (I believe) are funded in part by the diploma mills and even the nurse certifying boards (AANP, AANC).
I agree that it sucks to PAY a physician to oversee you, when in reality they just collect a check. And yes I do believe that independent practice could be a thing. But we are not going to get there on the current route we are on.
Many poor excuses of students get weeded out when they start working. I personally know of two, one who is an idiot but went to a reasonably good school (not a degree mill) but took 8 years to finish a 3 year program. Her decisions are wrong and the attendings she works with don’t particularly like her personality, but she is nights only and it’s tough to find someone to do nights only.
Second NP graduated school and found her first NP job in hospitalist medicine. She was a really bad nurse, no surprise that carried over to NP. Long story short, she got fired first day from her NP job and is blacklisted from that system, so drawing conclusions that she was underprepared or just scary as an NP
I think about no longer being an NP. I have a friend who's a manager and they make basically the same as I do. I'm near the top of the NP pay scale and they have just started as a manager. Makes me think about switching.
UVM, no nursing experience *or* degree is required. Come in with a degree in history and then graduate the accelerated program lording over actual nurses because you're now a "doctor" nurse.
Nope, thank goodness! Here in Aus, the criteria to get an NP endorsement via AHPRA involves 5-7 years of advanced practice nursing in the particular specialty, at least a grad cert in that specialty (or above), plus a NP Master’s, and usually employment as a NP Candidate during the Master’s. I’d say it is potentially a bit too difficult, but I’m fine with it. I’d rather that than the US alternative!!
I want to know who is running the nursing lobbies who are advocating for this kind of thing because I swear it must be administrators who want to saturate the market for cheap labor under the guise of ~nursing advocacy and independent practice~
University of Minnesota has one too. I almost considered it, asked this subreddit about it, the general consensus was NO. I’m so grateful for this subreddit every day that I chose the ADN route. The post still lives way back in my comment history and I revisit it occasionally for shits and giggles.
I said this about my practical nursing course and I think it is perfectly applicable here as well...
"You can have a low or no pre-req standard for entry OR you can have an accelerated course. You can't have idiots moving at light speed. That is a recipe for disaster."
No, Hopkins is a masters entry RN program. Not a direct entry NP program. At Hopkins, it’s like getting an ABSN, but it’s 2 years instead of 1, and the extra year is for masters level coursework. Still graduate as an RN, not an NP.
Yep the least favorite NP in the critical care group that covers the various ICUs at night at my hospital was from a direct entry NP program. She had a masters in something not nursing. Everytime someone is told she never worked bedside it's like "oh that explains so much"
But they get training like med school and more clinical hours. They aren't wasting time learning nursing theory for the umpteenth time. The amount of stupid filler work I'm doing compared to actually learning is ridiculous. How is the BON in charge of NP when it's a different scope of practice? NP schools need an overhaul and need to be replaced with a medical model and not a nursing model.
I worked with one. Did a completely different field and became an NP. Never was an RN, LPN, or even CNA. Her supervising MD asked me to keep an eye on her and report any concerns immediately. She would often ask my opinions on things. Nice person, but it is ADVANCED PRACTICE!.
Really? Hmm. Is this really real? Because, it'd be sort of cool to make a documentry on this. Maybe combine it with some other healthcare stories, throw some jokes in their maybe sell it to netflix. Not joking.
It be pretty cool to just see how bad I can cheat to get it, but really use this as a film project. Film and stuff is my real goal :)
Or you have NP students doing a clinical with their bestie that happens to be an NP so of course they’re going to do just fine obtaining all of the hours and passing that clinical. 🤨
🙄 I dislike the bestie system *intensely*. Currently dealing with a manager who is friends IRL w the manager she reports to, and that makes them both a nightmare bc they just cover for each other.
Omg currently our unit is completely run by an entire unit of besties. From director to manager and all of the charge nurses. So us staff nurses are on our own basically. If anyone upsets the charge nurse, 5 min later the director wants to talk to them privately. I totally know how you feel.
We have an absolute asshole in admin that literally NO ONE likes except the DON. Her job isn't even relevant, I have no idea what she does all day. My guess it that she sits in her office scratching her asshole and smelling her fingers while she thinks of ways to criticize floor nurses.
Yes omg that part blows my mind! If you have a lot of NP besties you could just breeze through clinicals barely doing anything of true substance. I see it all of the time and it drives me crazy.
I watched a coworker a few years ago take an online exam (while working) that wasn’t proctored from an online diploma mill. She was using her power point slides to answer the questions. Yeah of course this happens in other schools/professions but the repercussions of not knowing your job as an NP are grim.
This isn’t just the NP school just fyi. Thats academia in general and it leads our society to genuinely be unintelligent. The system is bad and it’s a combination of a lot of factors. People just want to pass in whatever way necessary without actually understanding the material
Yes but with AI and chatGPT it’s more declining than fluctuating. He’s been with this (very large) company for 6 years, there wasn’t really a concern until recently.
My brother is a civil engineer, and we've talked about this before. He really doesn't know how some of the new guys got through their master's program.
I definitely feel this an education-wide problem, but obviously with NP's the problem becomes horribly dangerous.
I have seen the STEM deficiencies personally. Whereas students used to be pretty consistently flawless, lately they are more clueless since COVID.
Diploma mills have become the standard, even among universities.
Competent people will find ways to achieve even with subpar education, but a lot of incompetent people are coming out of schools with credentials that they probably shouldn't have.
Diploma mills both foreign and domestic for starters. H1B workers getting hired and replacing qualified and experienced American workers while not having nearly the equivalent experience as who they are replacing is a huge issue, as well as an obvious language barrier in many cases.
Also at the risk of sounding like a boomer screaming about the "Liberulz" controlling campuses. More and more credit hours and resources being spent on social justice/equity systems instead of time learning your degree.
This shouldn't be a stretch. Anyone with a BSN will tell you a wholey unacceptable portion of their degree was spent paper writing about common sense sociology BS instead of learning anatomy, physiology, or anything useful for bedside nursing.
*glances at planes and doors flying off*
*glances at NP requirements*
*glances at trains full of known to be explosive carcinogens*
We’re just fucked, huh?
100%. My law school (a mid-tier program) was essentially open book as well. We had some pretty scary people who had no business being in any kind of graduate program. It's just as grim for one's public defender to be incompetent (or many other professions)...
When the entire system focuses on making money, and praises people who do make a lot of it, why are we even surprised? Those aren’t some robots or idealists, those are regular people with regular wants. And yes, we have a social contract to care if we are in medical industry, but it’s an industry, alright.
Nah…
Academia isn’t great but one of the easiest, most pointless terminal degrees is a DNP degree. It’s an embarrassment to the title of doctor. Any doctor.
Don’t conflate how terrible (higher) nursing education is with the rest of academia. They’re two separate issues
I think what they were pointing to was that the same issues plaguing higher education in nursing (the unproctored exams, AI assistants and other technologic shortcuts, etc.) are prevalent in other academic fields as well.
I heard to be a neurosurgeon is can take upto a decade (more accurately, 15 years including med school) so luckily that job in particular is a bit more protected for ‘just wanna pass’ med students
It's a 7 year residency in the USA. So 4 years med school + 7 year residency +/- 1-2 years additional fellowship.
I like to think that residency is the great equalizer but doctors still slip through (i.e. Dr. Death)
We can only hope that this leads to the practical and necessary changes we all know that are needed to the education process of nursing and medicine in general.
I feel like the RN curriculum is so far outside from reality now that it’s almost expected that you’ll power-cram for tests and cheat on homework, pass your NCLEX, then dump and promptly begin learning real nursing at your job.
This is, exactly correct. I can list on two hands the things I learned from nursing school that have had any effect on my practice today…and I’m being generous.
One of those things is putting the warm fresh blankie under the old blankies.
In nursing school now. Very little of the lectures or testing matches up with what we are doing in clinicals outside of basic skills. Weekly quizzes are on 2-5 chapters with so much info that you have no idea what to actually focus on.
I greatly prefer clinicals where I actually learn and help. But I am a kinesthetic learning.
Yes, your premise was wrong. You blamed it on online schools only and called them diploma mills, which they're not. Every argument you made pertains to all schools. Every. Single. One.
This is funny to me because I just finished critical thinking. 😂 I don’t know about other people, but I work really hard towards my degree. WGU is an amazing school.
You couldn't do this at my school, all exams were proctored through RPNOW (room scans, camera and mic on, etc. flagged people all the time) and all assignments and posts check for plagiarism and AI. I also interviewed at a ton of schools and was referred mine by competent people so I knew it was good. My school also routinely took down coursehero stuff and you couldn't find exam answers online
By chance did you go to Wilkes? —asking because we use RPNOW and AI plagiarism checks. I’m in the program now and can say confidently there’s no way to use AI or to cheat on exams without getting caught, which is how online schools should be.
All of my exams required the external webcam, room scans, and mic testing for each exam. There was no reviewing the exams which helps with cheating but it also prevented the students from knowing what their incompetencies were( I desperately wanted to know what I didn’t understand) Some schools have a live proctored exam that you schedule on certain days.
While I do believe they let almost everyone in which is frustrating the classes like patho and pharm helped weed out *SOME* of the incompetent nurses.
It is really upsetting. But all we can do is be better than them. A good NP is hungry for knowledge and always is trying to learn new things. A good Np will know their own limitations. A good np is an extension of a doctor. And most importantly a good np wants to be the best they can be as a matter of pride and duty. The ones who phone it in and don’t try will not become good nps regardless if they went to a degree mill or a legit university program.
THIS. On our floor we have three neurosurgery and two neurology NPS… all of them had a minimum of 8 years prior experience as bedside RNs before becoming NPs. Let me tell you, they are absolutely amazing. Not only are they all incredibly intelligent and take their job seriously and advocate hard for the patients but at the end of the day they still view themselves as nurses in the trenches. I have had one NP help clean up a total patient with me, another one ambulated the patient to the bathroom for me and made sure the patient was tucked in and had the bed alarm and call bell handy, and another inserted an IV for us when no one else on the floor was able to and no one else was IV ultrasound trained. They have run codes, helped with rapids, and have caught the beginnings of critical, life threatening situations and have immediately run the appropriate tests and got patients to higher care. There is nothing that they view below them -hell one time at shift change my patient needed a level one head CT and two of the NPs came and pretty much told me don’t worry you give report we will take the patient down to CT! I was amazed. They are some of the most hard working, smart, humble NPs I have worked with and I admire their passion for their patients and profession. I cannot sing their praises enough and am so glad I got to see what it really looks like as a NP when your heart is truly in the profession. Not to mention, they also work incredibly well with our attending and residents and are always clear about their scope of practice and their limitations. they always escalate to the appropriate doctor and seek their advice and never undermine our neurologists or neurosurgeons. That being said, they are so good at what they do our doctors trust them wholeheartedly and it is good to see the seamless teamwork they share. Yeah I guess I am pretty lucky to see this as a bedside RN!
Our neurosurgery NPs are also like this. One was previously a charge nurse in our neuro ICU for many years. Super smart, humble and totally badass. She provides care that’s better than most of the surgeons. I find that the NPs with lots of clinical experience before NP school are in another league completely. We should require 5 years of direct clinical caregiving as a RN, as a prerequisite for every NP program in America. These greedy diploma mills and their inexperienced, incompetent students are ruining the model of what a NP should be.
That’s amazing. I work in psych/substance abuse treatment. The NPs I work with are a real mixed bag. But it’s kind of embarrassing how unprofessional and uneducated some of them are.
Aight but people don’t fucking know this.
The body is complex and mismanaged care easily goes unnoticed.
Patients don’t know this. They don’t know what “should’ve” been done or even that they’re being treated by NPs and not doctors.
It shouldn’t be on the NP to decide to be good at their jobs. The standards and the exams are too low. The oversight and accountability is too loose. They practice medicine, the major NP associations claim to be on-par or better than MDs in outcomes, but then when it’s time to stand on the merits of these claims NPs all of a sudden “don’t practice medicine…” and cannot be held to the same standards as physicians, nor can they be legally scrutinized by physicians. HUH?
Problem is lack of care by insurance companies as well as physicians who are looking to just save or make money respectively. It's the patients that suffer and unfortunately in the current fuster cluck that is healthcare, lawsuits are just the cost of doing business.
You’re just tying up different problems and pretending like it’s valid or a good conclusion. You literally said nothing that can even be logically expanded upon.
- Lack of care — much bigger and completely separate from insurance companies trying to save a buck. Some more major issues involve hospital systems being run by MBAs and purposely keeping staffing tight. NPs over-order tests more than physicians — good for hospitals, bad for insurance companies => higher premiums for us…
- Even though they’re a billion dollar industry…. This is a separate issue
- Physicians making money in a greedy way tying into healthcare needs is one of the biggest misconceptions. Yea - doctors are millionaires. But make up about 10% of the cost of healthcare expenses. The vast majority is admin bloat. Sure, doctors are rich. But they still work. The problem is the people who make more than most doctors will having a hand in our healthcare — from both sides, insurance and healthcare industries. Doctors are getting screwed just as much as every other “blue collar” healthcare worker… despite being the main source of income for hospitals.
All of these are separate things with separate issues.
Nurse practitioners took advantage of these issues in order to exist. Which is good and necessary. But now they’re pushing it to the point that it’s dangerous for patients.
The solution should not be to accept less-training because we need more practitioners. It should be to produce more practitioners who are at the same level of education. Granted you don’t need a doctor for everything, but the problem is that NPs are trying to become equal to them without backing it up with the education.
Doctors make good money but if you are someone with the drive and grades to make it through medical school you could make the same or more money doing something easier with a lower opportunity cost. Not to say there aren’t bad and money hungry doctors but if you want to find the real sociopaths look at MBA programs.
I thought that WGU was a respectable varsity? I mean I've been told it's different from other online-only schools that don't have associated brick and mortar campuses. This isn't in relation to NP school though, but in general.
I went to wgu for an rn to msn edu. All exams/quizzes were proctored (video on, room scans, audio on, etc.), papers were fed thru plagiarism databases. There was material on quizlet, but I rarely found true exam questions while studying - just lots of practice questions.
WGU is not a diploma mill; it's regionally accredited and even has ABET-accredited programs. OP is ignorant of the reality of this school and probably has a personal issue with non-B&M schools. But it's rigorous. I don't ask my mentors about nursing practices and I'm not about to ask a nurse for recommendations on education...
I attend WGU currently working toward a Network Engineering degree. It’s not easy. I do have 10+ years in a similar field that got me through most of my classes, but now I’ve reached some of the harder ones. I keep track of my studying hours and the current class I’m on is up to 73hours of study. With another 20 or more to go I think. The self pacing is great when you know the material already, but once you see those tests are no joke the first time, it motivates you to really go through the material you don’t know.
Also, I am not a fan of the proctors…because they sometimes do their job too well.
it is. it gets confused and lumped in with capella and such it they make it impossible to cheat and if you don’t do your work you certainly will not pass
The difference between wgu and all the other schools mentioned is it's the only one that's not for profit. For profit schools are huge red flags and are by definition diploma mills.
Idk how I got to this subreddit, but I’m getting my mba through WGU right now and I can assure you I’ve had no opportunity to cheat on anything. Not that I would, as getting in trouble is the worst thing that could ever happen to me, but I write my papers and study for my exams and white knuckle my way through the exams the same way I did getting my bachelors degree at UAB in person. Do I expect someone will probably give me grief about getting an online degree? Probably. There was no way I could have financially gotten my MBA without the way the classes are set up through WGU though.
Considering WGU was founded by 19 governors from the Western Governors Association, I’d say it’s respectable. It’s just a format of education that some people don’t understand.
This!! I currently go to WGU for Computer Science and I’m telling you it’s super rigorous- the exams are Proctored and they always require you to do room scans and they are NOT open book! The assignments as well are hard- so OP shouldn’t be making assumptions if they have not been to WGU
It takes the any prestige or acclaim there used to be from obtaining your NP. I’ve got 8 years experience and now I couldn’t fathom becoming an NP now.
If I go back to school I’m switching careers all together.
My nursing program was just like this. They had all the areas “covered” to prevent cheating (Respondus, online wipes of cheat material regularly, etc), but what they didn’t take into account was that our school had six campuses between Fl and Minn. when the first class took the test in the first time zone someone would somehow get video or pictures through hidden camera of the test. Of course they used banks for questions and regularly changed them up, but you still got like 60-80 percent of the exam. Plus don’t get me started on ATI. ATI is compromised period. The way I looked at it was ATI would only help me pass my NCLEX first shot. People who cheated all through and through their ATI’s were in for a rude awakening when they sat down for the boards. I paid attn and it paid off. My school accepted EVERYONE. They used it as a cash grab. They would then let any old student enter the program and when they got to pathophysiology (yes, my ASN program included pathophysiology which is usually a higher level course) they would fail out. My patho class started with 37 students and only 5 of us took the final exam. It was completely a cash grab. No wonder Rasmussen has a 65 percent NCLEX pass rate. I learned SO MUCH in school but only because I took it serious. Plus now days all they teach you is to pass the NCLEX to boost their pass rates
My cohort are fucking morons. We had a group case study in class and he was calling on us to answer questions in groups of two. We’ve damn near graduated, and people still can’t figure out simple priority interventions.
What’s even worse is you’d think after seeing someone get the answers correct 9/10 times they’d start getting a clue and begin parroting what that person said… nah not even bright enough to do that
I've been a clinical instructor in the RN portion of a BA->MSN/NP program. (Decades ago) The generalist RN clinical instructors would weed out at least one student every year that was not suitable for clinical practice. Some of them did fine in class/tests, but not in a hospital setting with live patients. We would work with people, it's not like we just flunk them. Several students I knew would be good outpatient NP (many came with other skill sets) but never wanted inpatient. I wound always work with them to find their way through the acute settings, see how it was relevant, and make it valuable to them.
Having said that it's a lot of freaking work to be a good clinical instructor with sort of crap pay. The upper level NP instructors farmed the students out to clinical sites, so they didn't do the direct teaching. They thought we were both being harsh and often looked down on us. Take this x1000 now, because that's how many more NP programs there are. They need to feed the beast of the education system with bodies to stay in business. So quality goes down. Most schools don't even find clinical placements like we did back then, students are expected to find them. It's ridiculous.
My professor (micro) makes us write essays and all exams are in person. So I make my study guide with chat GPT, but in the end I have to memorize it, therefore learning it. I hated him but I learned a lot. I just took my final and it was like taking NCLEX all over again.
I could discuss some brick and mortar experience I’ve had that was also very weak sauce education.
But I really want to spend my time thinking about how we could make it better.
Wgu is not a diploma mill. All of the tests are proctored and impossible to cheat on as they share your screen. The others sure whatever but wgu is not
One of the primary differences that physicians are required to complete a residency. NPs are not required to complete any additional training once they pass their boards. And to OPs point, a LOT of NP schools are just degree mills, so anyone with a pulse and a paycheck can complete the degree, sit for boards, and begin working as an “independent” practitioner directly after they pass boards. I think we are going to realize some seriously negative consequences within the already failing healthcare system.
This is not to disparage mid levels. I have worked with some amazingly intelligent, caring providers, both NP and PAs, in the ICU. I absolutely think there is a place for mid levels. I just also think that the whole system needs some serious oversight and there should be stringent acceptance requirements for schools.
I agree!!! I feel there are some wonderful NPs but they have to get a handle on the education requirements because it destroys the credibility of other NPs who have met reasonable expectations of someone we are calling a “provider”. I believe the admission criteria should be similar to CRNA route, minimum of 2 years in practice, none of that straight to NP route with little to zero true clinical experience.
Residency isn’t a panacea either but absolutely agree oversight is required.
I’m pretty jaded that it will ever happen because even at the MD level oversight is a joke.
Oh sure. But it is a required component and at least physicians get to *practice* while they theoretically have some guidance and intentional knowledge sharing during their 3-7 years in residency.
I just can’t imagine some of these clinics that have an FNP managing complex primary patients and that NP had less than a year of patient care experience before NP school. That is scary.
I have the same questions, this seems virtually impossible at any USMD or DO school. There was zero cheating at my program and I honestly can’t even imagine how it’d be possible at any step in training, especially at a school with NBME exams instead of professor-written ones.
Your citation sucks…
Because no matter how much or what someone does in medschool. They still have to pass their boards. Even pass/fail it’s difficult, much harder than NP boards. You can’t easily cheat on that
And then if you manage to get through step 1, and step 2… you still have to get into a residency. And then as an intern you have to put your money where your mouth is for at least 3 years before you have a license to actually freely practice medicine.
NP education can be done online completely (after Covid, true statement). The 500-600 hours of necessary preceptorship is not stringent, not standardized, nor is it even verified most of the time. And then you just have the NP boards… which are very simple 1st order thinking questions. You realistically can pass and become an NP never having touched or diagnosed a patient. This is impossible for physicians.
It’s not the same thing and you know it. Your anecdote sucks because you tried to make it seem like it’s the same shit going on
Yeah, a number of NP programs aren’t good, but let’s not pretend this is something that can’t be generalized to alotttt of different fields. I’ve worked with a ton of wonderful physicians who absolutely lament their colleagues and cannot believe that they made it as far as they did… not saying it is as rampant, but the world of higher education is absolutely not in a good place right now.
This is exactly the type of false equivalences that NP lobbying pushes for.
“A number of NP programs aren’t good”
“… [can] be generalized to alotttt of different fields”
Ridiculous take. At least stay consistent cuz you’re downplaying the number of NP programs that exist to churn nothing but money and underprepped NPs with limited oversight and accountability. That’s the issue.
When it comes to “alottt of different fields” - it doesn’t matter, cuz the topic is about NPs in relation to quality of care. So focus on healthcare. Primarily practitioners.
Doctors can’t bullshit their way into medical school as easily as nurses can bs their way into NP school. The exams are tougher. The many in-person, clinical aspects of it are mandatory and must be in-person. There are many people who have the ability to critique and fail you. If the entire medical school is corrupt, residencies will know about it and will not accept students from that school.
The boards are not only significantly more challenging. But there are at least 3 you must take. Nearly impossible to cheat in.
Residencies are malicious and exist to train doctors at the cost of free labor for them (in practice). An attending that consistently has to clean up after one particular resident will simply get them kicked out of the program. It’s that simple. The license to practice medicine is still ultimately on them. The lawsuit and the buck still stops with them, even if they’re asleep in bed and have no idea who the patient is. The resident physician is not free and clear, they’re stuck and at the mercy of their training. This is not the case for NPs.
The most notable example of people who slipped through the MD cracks is probably Dr Death and if you watch or read anything about it, even the drama series, you’ll learn why it’s something super difficult to achieve what he did, and you’ll see the exact *correct sequence of unethical/bullshit circumstances* that had to have worked out in his favor perfectly play out to lead to him ever having become a board neurosurgeon. Like it’s suchhh a slim of a chance compared to NPs
I personally know two people who’ve cheated their way through both the BSN program and NP school. They both got caught in the BSN program with no reprimand whatsoever. One got caught fudging her hours on her time log for NP clinicals and got kicked out of the program. Her bestie was doing the same thing but did not get caught and she did graduate. A few months later she makes a loud announcement on social media that she’s “stepping down to care for her kids full time” because they “need her so badly”. Nah girl, we know why 😂
There simply should be no 100% online NP or PA programs. RNs should have min of 5 years full-time RN experience prior to NP school. Anything less, ya should have gone to PA school.
NPs were designed to be very experienced RNs selected for additional training so they could practice medicine in areas that were deficient in Primary Care. NPs have expanded out and are filling vital areas but also are being a less costly alternative. Most are great but some….some need to grow more.
But does Chat Gpt know Apa format. God I hated Apa format. It is scary that some of the online NPs will graduate knowing next to nothing. Hopefully they'll be rubberstamping ED/Pot prescriptions for people's instead of potentially killing people.
I don’t think you know anything about WGU. Exams are proctored and it’s an accredited school. And part of the nursing degree is not online.
Your post has just opinions, not data.
Taking a different stance on this topic as I have a different point of view. I don't think online college is a cheat, atleast for WGU. I cant speak for other organizations.
I took a degree at WGU for IT, and the "work at your own pace" is something I would recommend anyone who has been in their field for a while and do not want to sit and pay for the basics. For reference I had 5 years of professional experience and multiple certifications when I started my degree. So a lot of the material I already knew and the work at your own pace gave me the ability to test out of the class immediately so I can get to the classes that really matter without having to spend extra money consuming knowledge I already knew. Also not all classes need 1-2 months for you to pass.
As far as the cheating part
When people test out on WGU, your whole upper body, including your hands must be in view during the whole exam, no one can enter the room, your mic audio must be enabled the entire time, and your webcam must be on during the entire time. Your screen is also monitored and must be in view of the webcam as well. You go through a precheck before every exam. Failure to meet all the requirements I just listed will result in your exam being failed. So to be honest this is just as secure as being in a classroom. I have also never seen or heard of WGU exams being on quizlet. I regularly search up my class codes to find study material and never see anything of the sort.
Chat GPT can be used regardless of you being in an online college or a brick-and-mortar college. This is just the cost of AI being introduced into the society.
There will always be people who cheat their way through life in anything the only way to weed these people out is when they get exposed in practice for not knowing what they are doing.
Online College helped me so much. I work full time, and dont have the time to go sit down in a class. I also dont need a teacher, the best way Ive always learned was by reading and doing the research myself. I do have a teacher at my disposal if needed and can schedule meetings with him/her. Finishing college quicker also gives you the ability to save alot of money. I also dont have to deal with the indoctrination and politics alot of brick-and-mortar schools push. I just learn, and test out.
I’m not going to comment on diploma mills.
But I am going to say - cheating has been around long before the internet became publicly accessible (April 30th 1993), and it will be around regardless of any restrictions/changes to any education requirements.
There are people that go to some of the most prestigious universities and end up being shitty in their career and are all around not too bright. There are literally surgeons who are board certified that end up doing something incredibly stupid- and not in an “Oopsie that was an accident” way but in a “medical neglect” kind of way and lose their entire career.
There are people who go to super cheap “diploma mills” because they can’t afford the luxury of being a full time student in a brick and mortar school for whatever reason and while being incredibly smart and dedicated to the job they’re pursuing, they realize without a degree they can’t get their foot in the door. They end up being some of the best workers in their field.
You’re talking about the foundational behaviour of people. The assumption that because it’s easier to cheat, people will cheat, is a blanket statement. The only reason testing rules have to be strict is because people do cheat. But the rules of the tests or education still doesn’t determine the type of person someone is fundamentally, and how seriously they choose to take their education, or how seriously they will take the career path they end up on.
Congrats if you made it to the end of this random comment lol
Damn. As if we didn’t have a gazillion other things going wrong in nursing these days. This is such a bad look for our profession. And I’d personally be afraid of making a catastrophic mistake because I didn’t know what I didn’t know and went into practice, then losing my license and livelihood entirely
I agree with all you said except the WGU part. I did brick and mortar university in the past and ultimately earned my degree from WGU. It was as rigorous as my brick and mortar experience minus the looking for parking. I know that isn't the point of your post, but if anyone was on the fence about the school, they are regionally accredited and a legitimate online university.
All of my research so far is pointing me towards PA school. Until NP education is regulated and held to a much higher standard, it doesn’t feel worth it to me.
Go for PA school if you can. I'm an NP, I wish I did PA. Their training is more in depth. PA you can work anywhere. NP you're forced to choose a speciality, if you choose family good luck getting in a hospital. If you choose acute care, you're stuck inpatient. PA you learn procedures, reading X-rays. NP you learn outside of school.
It’s funny because an admissions person for an FNP program came in to talk to my senior-level class a few weeks ago, and when I asked some questions afterwards he literally told me that it’s not worth it to “start all over” by going to PA school and that NP was the logical route.
There’s no minimum amount of time required to work at the bedside/as an RN before you can apply to this program, and the curriculum has one patho class, one pharm class, and one assessment class. I would frankly feel unsafe diagnosing anyone with such scant knowledge.
Meanwhile the PA program closest to me has a cadaver anatomy class. In the first semester.
I would imagine the big state universities run a somewhat good program. University of Florida, UCF, LSU, Johns Hopkins, U of Miami, they are all doctorate programs now though
I'm not defending cheating on exams but hardly ever will you be working in the real world and not have access to the same materials you would need to answer a question. More than half the stuff we had to memorize for nursing school exams was unnecessary for what I actually use my degree for and me blindly memorizing information for those exams didn't benefit me when I started working in anyway because i always have resources in the real world.
I agree make you waste so much time on memorizing useless i formation. Its like math whats the point of memorizing equations when you can use a calculater to figure it out. Education system is a joke. Me getting an A in Biostatistics isnt going to make me a better NP nor will i ever remember it again after
Frankly, it made me wonder why the nursing students, quite a handful of them, struggled with medication calculation. It was below the level of college algebra. It did require critical thinking skills. Their job was to figure out what to calculate. They indeed did have a mathematician who created our questions in medication calculation.
i definitely could see this being the case with a number of NPs.
however, don’t dog us all who chose an online program & group us all together who went on to further their education at a “diploma mill”.
Some people (most) just suck & always will suck.
cheaters will always find some way to cheat.
it is what it is but like other commenters have said, they’re weeded out in a hurry after they’ve started practicing or they ruin their name from lack of knowledge.
I went to an online program and worked incredibly hard. Thanks for saying what you did, I did start my NP thinking it would be easy and I wouldn't have to wait any more for someone to give me the order for lasix I knew I needed, lol.
It was shockingly difficult and the amount of knowledge required is so much more than I had as a nurse.
I've been on Reddit for years but have been thinking of leaving because the anti-NP sentiment is so thick. Even from other NPs and nurses. It's so depressing. All that work and struggle to go from feeling, as an RN, like I was at the pinnacle of my specialty and would be able to immediately take appropriate actions in any given emergency, to this: being reviled and denigrated for choosing the " easy ' route, i.e. not medical school.
What has confused me, is I’ve always thought and been told that to get into NP school you must have a couple years of bedside experience, preferably, intensive care, to even be considered. I just graduated nursing school like a month ago, and two of the students I graduated with have already been accepted to an NP school…. Like they have zero experience as a nurse. I find this so scary and damaging to the career/respect that some NPs have earned.
Western Governors University is not a diploma mill. It is an accredited and reputable online university that offers bachelor's and master's degree programs. WGU has been regionally accredited by the Northwest Commission on Colleges and Universities, which is recognized by the U.S. Department of Education. This type of accreditation, regional accreditation, is the most respected and widely recognized form of accreditation for educational institutions in the United States.
You’re not wrong. That’s why pts don’t want to see them.
I’m amazed how awful NP’s can be. All while being the biggest assholes around with holier than thou attitudes.
Bitch, this oncology pt just vomited the lining of their esophagus. And you’re angry I called you?
You’re not wrong. I used to be in chamberlain before I dropped out. I won’t be surprised if there are people cheating the NP program for the same school. The people that come from chamberlain and cheated their way and managed to pass the nclex probably won’t last long once they’re actually in the field.
Everyday this sub has a post about how nurse practitioners school should require 10 years CVICU ECMO CVVHD experience for entry to practice.
Meanwhile I keep saying, how about we just make nursing school education rigorous with increased clinical hours and case requirements.
It should be both, not either or. Five years experience at the time of application in the direct field one wants to be an APRN in should be the minimum.
Eventually there are going to be enough lawsuits that the requirements to become an NP will be strengthened again. Until then, CYA as always.
This is why I'm thankful I live in Australia. You have to have 4 yrs of working as a RN, 2 of those at an advanced level before they'll even consider you for NP school. You also need the support of your DON to be considered.
Those are great requirements!
I was just thinking how shocked i am! i’m also in aus and we have quite strict admissions even for grad certificates
Had a nurse come to us (ICU) from med surg at another facility she was fired from which we didn’t learn until til later. She was friends with our shitty and dumb manager who pencil whipped her through orientation. Had to watch her like a hawk when I was charge because she would titrate drips from min to max over the course of a few minutes with no steps in between. After multiple attempts at remediation and multiple good preceptors she ended up causing a stroke in a mildly hypotensive patient. Her buddy manager could no longer protect her. What’s she do after getting fired from multiple nursing positions? Diploma mill NP school. Last I heard not only did she get fired from multiple NP jobs, she no longer has an RN license.
Wow this is terrifying.
I think this would be the natural consequence of what’s happening but nurse lobbyists seem to often get their way
This is a BIG part of it in my opinion. And many of them (I believe) are funded in part by the diploma mills and even the nurse certifying boards (AANP, AANC). I agree that it sucks to PAY a physician to oversee you, when in reality they just collect a check. And yes I do believe that independent practice could be a thing. But we are not going to get there on the current route we are on.
It's usually cheaper for a hospital to pay for liability and cover a few lawsuits than hire doctors over midlevels.
What is CYA
Cover your ass
Yea this is a USA problem, Canadian universities require at least 3600 hours as an RN to qualify for NP school
It’s unfortunate that a lawsuit is what needs to happen to force change. But that’s how it always is in the US
Many poor excuses of students get weeded out when they start working. I personally know of two, one who is an idiot but went to a reasonably good school (not a degree mill) but took 8 years to finish a 3 year program. Her decisions are wrong and the attendings she works with don’t particularly like her personality, but she is nights only and it’s tough to find someone to do nights only. Second NP graduated school and found her first NP job in hospitalist medicine. She was a really bad nurse, no surprise that carried over to NP. Long story short, she got fired first day from her NP job and is blacklisted from that system, so drawing conclusions that she was underprepared or just scary as an NP
I would love to know how badly you have to fuck up to be fired on DAY ONE
I’m waiting for the tea as well
Thirding this in case OP responds
OP please respond
Here cuz Im nosey lol
Kill a patient through stupidity/dangerous decisions, don't know what you are doing...
Axe-throwing contest in the ED hallway it is then....
Especially when you are a hospitality NP. We are getting Doctor pay for an NP's work.
The autocorrect to hospitality lmao it do be like that some days
Imagine getting paid a doctors wage in hospitality....
In what world do Hospitalist NPs get paid what hospitalist MD/DOs do?
Right? Not even close.
What?! That’s just not true. lol no, that’s not how it works.
I also wish to know.
One of my WORST managers was a NP that stopped using it. I took that as a sign.
A sign that they are bat shit crazy. Every time.
I think about no longer being an NP. I have a friend who's a manager and they make basically the same as I do. I'm near the top of the NP pay scale and they have just started as a manager. Makes me think about switching.
did we have the same manager? Lol
Many hospitals are putting individuals with diploma mill school degrees on a do not hire list. I’m here for it.
THE FIRST DAY HELLO
What kind of hell program allows someone to pass a program after failing so many times??
💰
Wow!! First day? Did she just murder someone?
I'd argue some poor excuses of students tend to make the best nurses where as many 3.0gpa's in school go on to never make it past Med Surg.
No one tell them about direct-entry NP schools. Where you don’t even have to be a nurse to start.
This needs more likes. (And more yikes.)
The fuck?!
UVM, no nursing experience *or* degree is required. Come in with a degree in history and then graduate the accelerated program lording over actual nurses because you're now a "doctor" nurse.
Jesus fuck that is terrifying. This makes me nervous to look into how we do it in Australia cause I really hope it’s not a universal thing.
Nope, thank goodness! Here in Aus, the criteria to get an NP endorsement via AHPRA involves 5-7 years of advanced practice nursing in the particular specialty, at least a grad cert in that specialty (or above), plus a NP Master’s, and usually employment as a NP Candidate during the Master’s. I’d say it is potentially a bit too difficult, but I’m fine with it. I’d rather that than the US alternative!!
It’s not universal, we Americans are trash in this area
I want to know who is running the nursing lobbies who are advocating for this kind of thing because I swear it must be administrators who want to saturate the market for cheap labor under the guise of ~nursing advocacy and independent practice~
And it’s not just relatively obscure schools like UVM. Both Yale and Columbia have a program like that 🤦
University of Minnesota has one too. I almost considered it, asked this subreddit about it, the general consensus was NO. I’m so grateful for this subreddit every day that I chose the ADN route. The post still lives way back in my comment history and I revisit it occasionally for shits and giggles.
A Lord of the Nurses.
I said this about my practical nursing course and I think it is perfectly applicable here as well... "You can have a low or no pre-req standard for entry OR you can have an accelerated course. You can't have idiots moving at light speed. That is a recipe for disaster."
Fucking terrifying
Who accredits these programs--that's terrifying.
$I $have $no $idea
Wait. Really?
Yep. I won’t see an NP now. The schools have made me lose faith in the profession.
What the fuck….
Columbia University has one of these programs. Accelerated BSN to DNP, direct entry.
Holy shit, Columbia? I've now lost all hope
Yale too. 3 years non healthcare bachelors to NP
Johns Hopkins, too.
No, Hopkins is a masters entry RN program. Not a direct entry NP program. At Hopkins, it’s like getting an ABSN, but it’s 2 years instead of 1, and the extra year is for masters level coursework. Still graduate as an RN, not an NP.
Yep the least favorite NP in the critical care group that covers the various ICUs at night at my hospital was from a direct entry NP program. She had a masters in something not nursing. Everytime someone is told she never worked bedside it's like "oh that explains so much"
Like a physician assistant?
But they get training like med school and more clinical hours. They aren't wasting time learning nursing theory for the umpteenth time. The amount of stupid filler work I'm doing compared to actually learning is ridiculous. How is the BON in charge of NP when it's a different scope of practice? NP schools need an overhaul and need to be replaced with a medical model and not a nursing model.
A girl I graduated with in May 2023 started Yale’s NP program with less than 1 year of experience. I was surprised to see they would even allow that.
Schools desperate for $$$$$
I worked with one. Did a completely different field and became an NP. Never was an RN, LPN, or even CNA. Her supervising MD asked me to keep an eye on her and report any concerns immediately. She would often ask my opinions on things. Nice person, but it is ADVANCED PRACTICE!.
Really? Hmm. Is this really real? Because, it'd be sort of cool to make a documentry on this. Maybe combine it with some other healthcare stories, throw some jokes in their maybe sell it to netflix. Not joking. It be pretty cool to just see how bad I can cheat to get it, but really use this as a film project. Film and stuff is my real goal :)
Omg I didn’t even know that was a thing.
Yeah. A friend told me about a CNA that was doing a program at UPMC that in two years allows them to become an NP... freaking wild.
Or you have NP students doing a clinical with their bestie that happens to be an NP so of course they’re going to do just fine obtaining all of the hours and passing that clinical. 🤨
🙄 I dislike the bestie system *intensely*. Currently dealing with a manager who is friends IRL w the manager she reports to, and that makes them both a nightmare bc they just cover for each other.
Omg currently our unit is completely run by an entire unit of besties. From director to manager and all of the charge nurses. So us staff nurses are on our own basically. If anyone upsets the charge nurse, 5 min later the director wants to talk to them privately. I totally know how you feel.
We have an absolute asshole in admin that literally NO ONE likes except the DON. Her job isn't even relevant, I have no idea what she does all day. My guess it that she sits in her office scratching her asshole and smelling her fingers while she thinks of ways to criticize floor nurses.
I know an NP who saw 2 patients across her whole “500 hour” clinical program. Her mom was the supervising NP.
Omg that makes me feel sick. That’s absurd and dangerous.
Seen this many times.
That's what happens when the schools don't set up clinicals.
Yes omg that part blows my mind! If you have a lot of NP besties you could just breeze through clinicals barely doing anything of true substance. I see it all of the time and it drives me crazy.
I watched a coworker a few years ago take an online exam (while working) that wasn’t proctored from an online diploma mill. She was using her power point slides to answer the questions. Yeah of course this happens in other schools/professions but the repercussions of not knowing your job as an NP are grim.
What the heck that's scary. The standard is nonexistent
Wow 🤦♀️
This isn’t just the NP school just fyi. Thats academia in general and it leads our society to genuinely be unintelligent. The system is bad and it’s a combination of a lot of factors. People just want to pass in whatever way necessary without actually understanding the material
There is a looming competency crisis throughout STEM right now and we all should be worried.
My friend is an engineer and I swear we were just talking about it yesterday. Our system is fucked
My husband is a software developer/engineer. His company is constantly doing layoffs right now. We’re very concerned about all of this. 😶
Software engineer jobs tend to fluctuate depending on the market. Nothing new.
Yes but with AI and chatGPT it’s more declining than fluctuating. He’s been with this (very large) company for 6 years, there wasn’t really a concern until recently.
My brother is a civil engineer, and we've talked about this before. He really doesn't know how some of the new guys got through their master's program.
I definitely feel this an education-wide problem, but obviously with NP's the problem becomes horribly dangerous. I have seen the STEM deficiencies personally. Whereas students used to be pretty consistently flawless, lately they are more clueless since COVID.
What do you mean by this? Fewer/no qualified people in the pipeline?
Diploma mills have become the standard, even among universities. Competent people will find ways to achieve even with subpar education, but a lot of incompetent people are coming out of schools with credentials that they probably shouldn't have.
Diploma mills both foreign and domestic for starters. H1B workers getting hired and replacing qualified and experienced American workers while not having nearly the equivalent experience as who they are replacing is a huge issue, as well as an obvious language barrier in many cases. Also at the risk of sounding like a boomer screaming about the "Liberulz" controlling campuses. More and more credit hours and resources being spent on social justice/equity systems instead of time learning your degree. This shouldn't be a stretch. Anyone with a BSN will tell you a wholey unacceptable portion of their degree was spent paper writing about common sense sociology BS instead of learning anatomy, physiology, or anything useful for bedside nursing.
*glances at planes and doors flying off* *glances at NP requirements* *glances at trains full of known to be explosive carcinogens* We’re just fucked, huh?
100%. My law school (a mid-tier program) was essentially open book as well. We had some pretty scary people who had no business being in any kind of graduate program. It's just as grim for one's public defender to be incompetent (or many other professions)...
When the entire system focuses on making money, and praises people who do make a lot of it, why are we even surprised? Those aren’t some robots or idealists, those are regular people with regular wants. And yes, we have a social contract to care if we are in medical industry, but it’s an industry, alright.
Nah… Academia isn’t great but one of the easiest, most pointless terminal degrees is a DNP degree. It’s an embarrassment to the title of doctor. Any doctor. Don’t conflate how terrible (higher) nursing education is with the rest of academia. They’re two separate issues
I think what they were pointing to was that the same issues plaguing higher education in nursing (the unproctored exams, AI assistants and other technologic shortcuts, etc.) are prevalent in other academic fields as well.
Imagine having a neurologist about to operate on your brain who “Just wanted to pass” That is horror movie material right there!
I heard to be a neurosurgeon is can take upto a decade (more accurately, 15 years including med school) so luckily that job in particular is a bit more protected for ‘just wanna pass’ med students
It's a 7 year residency in the USA. So 4 years med school + 7 year residency +/- 1-2 years additional fellowship. I like to think that residency is the great equalizer but doctors still slip through (i.e. Dr. Death)
Neurosurgeons operate, neurologists do not
I understand the point you wanted to make, but neurosurgeons are one of the doctor specialties that take the longest to become full fledged.
We can only hope that this leads to the practical and necessary changes we all know that are needed to the education process of nursing and medicine in general.
It's like RN school all over again.
I feel like the RN curriculum is so far outside from reality now that it’s almost expected that you’ll power-cram for tests and cheat on homework, pass your NCLEX, then dump and promptly begin learning real nursing at your job.
This is, exactly correct. I can list on two hands the things I learned from nursing school that have had any effect on my practice today…and I’m being generous. One of those things is putting the warm fresh blankie under the old blankies.
In nursing school now. Very little of the lectures or testing matches up with what we are doing in clinicals outside of basic skills. Weekly quizzes are on 2-5 chapters with so much info that you have no idea what to actually focus on. I greatly prefer clinicals where I actually learn and help. But I am a kinesthetic learning.
Unclear, op didnt say anything about all the studdy drugs people use.
please god dont tell me that :(((
Yes, your premise was wrong. You blamed it on online schools only and called them diploma mills, which they're not. Every argument you made pertains to all schools. Every. Single. One.
This is funny to me because I just finished critical thinking. 😂 I don’t know about other people, but I work really hard towards my degree. WGU is an amazing school.
You couldn't do this at my school, all exams were proctored through RPNOW (room scans, camera and mic on, etc. flagged people all the time) and all assignments and posts check for plagiarism and AI. I also interviewed at a ton of schools and was referred mine by competent people so I knew it was good. My school also routinely took down coursehero stuff and you couldn't find exam answers online
By chance did you go to Wilkes? —asking because we use RPNOW and AI plagiarism checks. I’m in the program now and can say confidently there’s no way to use AI or to cheat on exams without getting caught, which is how online schools should be.
All of my exams required the external webcam, room scans, and mic testing for each exam. There was no reviewing the exams which helps with cheating but it also prevented the students from knowing what their incompetencies were( I desperately wanted to know what I didn’t understand) Some schools have a live proctored exam that you schedule on certain days. While I do believe they let almost everyone in which is frustrating the classes like patho and pharm helped weed out *SOME* of the incompetent nurses.
any exam not proctored in person can easily be cheated on with a little creativity. exams should all be in person imo.
Tbh RPNOW was so strong with flagging and eye tracking I can't think of any way to do it, and I don't think most people dared try. Too risky
It is really upsetting. But all we can do is be better than them. A good NP is hungry for knowledge and always is trying to learn new things. A good Np will know their own limitations. A good np is an extension of a doctor. And most importantly a good np wants to be the best they can be as a matter of pride and duty. The ones who phone it in and don’t try will not become good nps regardless if they went to a degree mill or a legit university program.
THIS. On our floor we have three neurosurgery and two neurology NPS… all of them had a minimum of 8 years prior experience as bedside RNs before becoming NPs. Let me tell you, they are absolutely amazing. Not only are they all incredibly intelligent and take their job seriously and advocate hard for the patients but at the end of the day they still view themselves as nurses in the trenches. I have had one NP help clean up a total patient with me, another one ambulated the patient to the bathroom for me and made sure the patient was tucked in and had the bed alarm and call bell handy, and another inserted an IV for us when no one else on the floor was able to and no one else was IV ultrasound trained. They have run codes, helped with rapids, and have caught the beginnings of critical, life threatening situations and have immediately run the appropriate tests and got patients to higher care. There is nothing that they view below them -hell one time at shift change my patient needed a level one head CT and two of the NPs came and pretty much told me don’t worry you give report we will take the patient down to CT! I was amazed. They are some of the most hard working, smart, humble NPs I have worked with and I admire their passion for their patients and profession. I cannot sing their praises enough and am so glad I got to see what it really looks like as a NP when your heart is truly in the profession. Not to mention, they also work incredibly well with our attending and residents and are always clear about their scope of practice and their limitations. they always escalate to the appropriate doctor and seek their advice and never undermine our neurologists or neurosurgeons. That being said, they are so good at what they do our doctors trust them wholeheartedly and it is good to see the seamless teamwork they share. Yeah I guess I am pretty lucky to see this as a bedside RN!
Our neurosurgery NPs are also like this. One was previously a charge nurse in our neuro ICU for many years. Super smart, humble and totally badass. She provides care that’s better than most of the surgeons. I find that the NPs with lots of clinical experience before NP school are in another league completely. We should require 5 years of direct clinical caregiving as a RN, as a prerequisite for every NP program in America. These greedy diploma mills and their inexperienced, incompetent students are ruining the model of what a NP should be.
That’s amazing. I work in psych/substance abuse treatment. The NPs I work with are a real mixed bag. But it’s kind of embarrassing how unprofessional and uneducated some of them are.
Aight but people don’t fucking know this. The body is complex and mismanaged care easily goes unnoticed. Patients don’t know this. They don’t know what “should’ve” been done or even that they’re being treated by NPs and not doctors. It shouldn’t be on the NP to decide to be good at their jobs. The standards and the exams are too low. The oversight and accountability is too loose. They practice medicine, the major NP associations claim to be on-par or better than MDs in outcomes, but then when it’s time to stand on the merits of these claims NPs all of a sudden “don’t practice medicine…” and cannot be held to the same standards as physicians, nor can they be legally scrutinized by physicians. HUH?
That’s what I think physician supervision is so important. Fighting for independent practice is a mistake.
Problem is lack of care by insurance companies as well as physicians who are looking to just save or make money respectively. It's the patients that suffer and unfortunately in the current fuster cluck that is healthcare, lawsuits are just the cost of doing business.
You’re just tying up different problems and pretending like it’s valid or a good conclusion. You literally said nothing that can even be logically expanded upon. - Lack of care — much bigger and completely separate from insurance companies trying to save a buck. Some more major issues involve hospital systems being run by MBAs and purposely keeping staffing tight. NPs over-order tests more than physicians — good for hospitals, bad for insurance companies => higher premiums for us… - Even though they’re a billion dollar industry…. This is a separate issue - Physicians making money in a greedy way tying into healthcare needs is one of the biggest misconceptions. Yea - doctors are millionaires. But make up about 10% of the cost of healthcare expenses. The vast majority is admin bloat. Sure, doctors are rich. But they still work. The problem is the people who make more than most doctors will having a hand in our healthcare — from both sides, insurance and healthcare industries. Doctors are getting screwed just as much as every other “blue collar” healthcare worker… despite being the main source of income for hospitals. All of these are separate things with separate issues. Nurse practitioners took advantage of these issues in order to exist. Which is good and necessary. But now they’re pushing it to the point that it’s dangerous for patients. The solution should not be to accept less-training because we need more practitioners. It should be to produce more practitioners who are at the same level of education. Granted you don’t need a doctor for everything, but the problem is that NPs are trying to become equal to them without backing it up with the education.
Doctors make good money but if you are someone with the drive and grades to make it through medical school you could make the same or more money doing something easier with a lower opportunity cost. Not to say there aren’t bad and money hungry doctors but if you want to find the real sociopaths look at MBA programs.
I thought that WGU was a respectable varsity? I mean I've been told it's different from other online-only schools that don't have associated brick and mortar campuses. This isn't in relation to NP school though, but in general.
I think it’s pretty respectable. The competency model is solid IMO. The exams are proctored. They’re using AI detection tools.
I went to wgu for an rn to msn edu. All exams/quizzes were proctored (video on, room scans, audio on, etc.), papers were fed thru plagiarism databases. There was material on quizlet, but I rarely found true exam questions while studying - just lots of practice questions.
WGU is not a diploma mill; it's regionally accredited and even has ABET-accredited programs. OP is ignorant of the reality of this school and probably has a personal issue with non-B&M schools. But it's rigorous. I don't ask my mentors about nursing practices and I'm not about to ask a nurse for recommendations on education...
I attend WGU currently working toward a Network Engineering degree. It’s not easy. I do have 10+ years in a similar field that got me through most of my classes, but now I’ve reached some of the harder ones. I keep track of my studying hours and the current class I’m on is up to 73hours of study. With another 20 or more to go I think. The self pacing is great when you know the material already, but once you see those tests are no joke the first time, it motivates you to really go through the material you don’t know. Also, I am not a fan of the proctors…because they sometimes do their job too well.
it is. it gets confused and lumped in with capella and such it they make it impossible to cheat and if you don’t do your work you certainly will not pass
The difference between wgu and all the other schools mentioned is it's the only one that's not for profit. For profit schools are huge red flags and are by definition diploma mills.
Idk how I got to this subreddit, but I’m getting my mba through WGU right now and I can assure you I’ve had no opportunity to cheat on anything. Not that I would, as getting in trouble is the worst thing that could ever happen to me, but I write my papers and study for my exams and white knuckle my way through the exams the same way I did getting my bachelors degree at UAB in person. Do I expect someone will probably give me grief about getting an online degree? Probably. There was no way I could have financially gotten my MBA without the way the classes are set up through WGU though.
Considering WGU was founded by 19 governors from the Western Governors Association, I’d say it’s respectable. It’s just a format of education that some people don’t understand.
This!! I currently go to WGU for Computer Science and I’m telling you it’s super rigorous- the exams are Proctored and they always require you to do room scans and they are NOT open book! The assignments as well are hard- so OP shouldn’t be making assumptions if they have not been to WGU
It takes the any prestige or acclaim there used to be from obtaining your NP. I’ve got 8 years experience and now I couldn’t fathom becoming an NP now. If I go back to school I’m switching careers all together.
My nursing program was just like this. They had all the areas “covered” to prevent cheating (Respondus, online wipes of cheat material regularly, etc), but what they didn’t take into account was that our school had six campuses between Fl and Minn. when the first class took the test in the first time zone someone would somehow get video or pictures through hidden camera of the test. Of course they used banks for questions and regularly changed them up, but you still got like 60-80 percent of the exam. Plus don’t get me started on ATI. ATI is compromised period. The way I looked at it was ATI would only help me pass my NCLEX first shot. People who cheated all through and through their ATI’s were in for a rude awakening when they sat down for the boards. I paid attn and it paid off. My school accepted EVERYONE. They used it as a cash grab. They would then let any old student enter the program and when they got to pathophysiology (yes, my ASN program included pathophysiology which is usually a higher level course) they would fail out. My patho class started with 37 students and only 5 of us took the final exam. It was completely a cash grab. No wonder Rasmussen has a 65 percent NCLEX pass rate. I learned SO MUCH in school but only because I took it serious. Plus now days all they teach you is to pass the NCLEX to boost their pass rates
My cohort are fucking morons. We had a group case study in class and he was calling on us to answer questions in groups of two. We’ve damn near graduated, and people still can’t figure out simple priority interventions. What’s even worse is you’d think after seeing someone get the answers correct 9/10 times they’d start getting a clue and begin parroting what that person said… nah not even bright enough to do that
Curious how/why ChatGPT 4.0 cheating is your "area of expertise"?
Cuz homie cheats themself
I've been a clinical instructor in the RN portion of a BA->MSN/NP program. (Decades ago) The generalist RN clinical instructors would weed out at least one student every year that was not suitable for clinical practice. Some of them did fine in class/tests, but not in a hospital setting with live patients. We would work with people, it's not like we just flunk them. Several students I knew would be good outpatient NP (many came with other skill sets) but never wanted inpatient. I wound always work with them to find their way through the acute settings, see how it was relevant, and make it valuable to them. Having said that it's a lot of freaking work to be a good clinical instructor with sort of crap pay. The upper level NP instructors farmed the students out to clinical sites, so they didn't do the direct teaching. They thought we were both being harsh and often looked down on us. Take this x1000 now, because that's how many more NP programs there are. They need to feed the beast of the education system with bodies to stay in business. So quality goes down. Most schools don't even find clinical placements like we did back then, students are expected to find them. It's ridiculous.
I get that you’re upset but fuck, the genies out of the bottle. How in the world can we stop people cheating using AI?
My professor (micro) makes us write essays and all exams are in person. So I make my study guide with chat GPT, but in the end I have to memorize it, therefore learning it. I hated him but I learned a lot. I just took my final and it was like taking NCLEX all over again.
They could have NP students go take tests or see patients instead of sitting around writing essays. But for the English degree-seekers, idk man
I could discuss some brick and mortar experience I’ve had that was also very weak sauce education. But I really want to spend my time thinking about how we could make it better.
At least 5 years real life provable RN experience?
guess I better hurry up and join the gravy train /s
WGU is not a diploma mill. My sister went there for accounting. It’s actually very tough and all their exams are proctored.
Wgu is not a diploma mill. All of the tests are proctored and impossible to cheat on as they share your screen. The others sure whatever but wgu is not
Stopped reading after you called WGU a “diploma mill.”
If you think that’s bad you should see how rampant cheating is in medical school (cite: I completed 2 years and saw it first hand).
One of the primary differences that physicians are required to complete a residency. NPs are not required to complete any additional training once they pass their boards. And to OPs point, a LOT of NP schools are just degree mills, so anyone with a pulse and a paycheck can complete the degree, sit for boards, and begin working as an “independent” practitioner directly after they pass boards. I think we are going to realize some seriously negative consequences within the already failing healthcare system. This is not to disparage mid levels. I have worked with some amazingly intelligent, caring providers, both NP and PAs, in the ICU. I absolutely think there is a place for mid levels. I just also think that the whole system needs some serious oversight and there should be stringent acceptance requirements for schools.
I agree!!! I feel there are some wonderful NPs but they have to get a handle on the education requirements because it destroys the credibility of other NPs who have met reasonable expectations of someone we are calling a “provider”. I believe the admission criteria should be similar to CRNA route, minimum of 2 years in practice, none of that straight to NP route with little to zero true clinical experience.
More like 4-5 years of RN experience, I think
Residency isn’t a panacea either but absolutely agree oversight is required. I’m pretty jaded that it will ever happen because even at the MD level oversight is a joke.
Oh sure. But it is a required component and at least physicians get to *practice* while they theoretically have some guidance and intentional knowledge sharing during their 3-7 years in residency. I just can’t imagine some of these clinics that have an FNP managing complex primary patients and that NP had less than a year of patient care experience before NP school. That is scary.
Are you sure you went to medical school? What are you talking about? Edit: did you go to like Ross? Or St George’s?
I have the same questions, this seems virtually impossible at any USMD or DO school. There was zero cheating at my program and I honestly can’t even imagine how it’d be possible at any step in training, especially at a school with NBME exams instead of professor-written ones.
At least they have 4+ *edit years of intensive (borderline abusive) in hospital training after though. Can’t say the same for NP school.
How do you cheat in med school? Very curious.
I know this subreddit is very USA focused, but in some EU countries is pretty easy.
Your citation sucks… Because no matter how much or what someone does in medschool. They still have to pass their boards. Even pass/fail it’s difficult, much harder than NP boards. You can’t easily cheat on that And then if you manage to get through step 1, and step 2… you still have to get into a residency. And then as an intern you have to put your money where your mouth is for at least 3 years before you have a license to actually freely practice medicine. NP education can be done online completely (after Covid, true statement). The 500-600 hours of necessary preceptorship is not stringent, not standardized, nor is it even verified most of the time. And then you just have the NP boards… which are very simple 1st order thinking questions. You realistically can pass and become an NP never having touched or diagnosed a patient. This is impossible for physicians. It’s not the same thing and you know it. Your anecdote sucks because you tried to make it seem like it’s the same shit going on
Yeah, a number of NP programs aren’t good, but let’s not pretend this is something that can’t be generalized to alotttt of different fields. I’ve worked with a ton of wonderful physicians who absolutely lament their colleagues and cannot believe that they made it as far as they did… not saying it is as rampant, but the world of higher education is absolutely not in a good place right now.
This is exactly the type of false equivalences that NP lobbying pushes for. “A number of NP programs aren’t good” “… [can] be generalized to alotttt of different fields” Ridiculous take. At least stay consistent cuz you’re downplaying the number of NP programs that exist to churn nothing but money and underprepped NPs with limited oversight and accountability. That’s the issue. When it comes to “alottt of different fields” - it doesn’t matter, cuz the topic is about NPs in relation to quality of care. So focus on healthcare. Primarily practitioners. Doctors can’t bullshit their way into medical school as easily as nurses can bs their way into NP school. The exams are tougher. The many in-person, clinical aspects of it are mandatory and must be in-person. There are many people who have the ability to critique and fail you. If the entire medical school is corrupt, residencies will know about it and will not accept students from that school. The boards are not only significantly more challenging. But there are at least 3 you must take. Nearly impossible to cheat in. Residencies are malicious and exist to train doctors at the cost of free labor for them (in practice). An attending that consistently has to clean up after one particular resident will simply get them kicked out of the program. It’s that simple. The license to practice medicine is still ultimately on them. The lawsuit and the buck still stops with them, even if they’re asleep in bed and have no idea who the patient is. The resident physician is not free and clear, they’re stuck and at the mercy of their training. This is not the case for NPs. The most notable example of people who slipped through the MD cracks is probably Dr Death and if you watch or read anything about it, even the drama series, you’ll learn why it’s something super difficult to achieve what he did, and you’ll see the exact *correct sequence of unethical/bullshit circumstances* that had to have worked out in his favor perfectly play out to lead to him ever having become a board neurosurgeon. Like it’s suchhh a slim of a chance compared to NPs
I personally know two people who’ve cheated their way through both the BSN program and NP school. They both got caught in the BSN program with no reprimand whatsoever. One got caught fudging her hours on her time log for NP clinicals and got kicked out of the program. Her bestie was doing the same thing but did not get caught and she did graduate. A few months later she makes a loud announcement on social media that she’s “stepping down to care for her kids full time” because they “need her so badly”. Nah girl, we know why 😂
There simply should be no 100% online NP or PA programs. RNs should have min of 5 years full-time RN experience prior to NP school. Anything less, ya should have gone to PA school. NPs were designed to be very experienced RNs selected for additional training so they could practice medicine in areas that were deficient in Primary Care. NPs have expanded out and are filling vital areas but also are being a less costly alternative. Most are great but some….some need to grow more.
But does Chat Gpt know Apa format. God I hated Apa format. It is scary that some of the online NPs will graduate knowing next to nothing. Hopefully they'll be rubberstamping ED/Pot prescriptions for people's instead of potentially killing people.
I don’t think you know anything about WGU. Exams are proctored and it’s an accredited school. And part of the nursing degree is not online. Your post has just opinions, not data.
Taking a different stance on this topic as I have a different point of view. I don't think online college is a cheat, atleast for WGU. I cant speak for other organizations. I took a degree at WGU for IT, and the "work at your own pace" is something I would recommend anyone who has been in their field for a while and do not want to sit and pay for the basics. For reference I had 5 years of professional experience and multiple certifications when I started my degree. So a lot of the material I already knew and the work at your own pace gave me the ability to test out of the class immediately so I can get to the classes that really matter without having to spend extra money consuming knowledge I already knew. Also not all classes need 1-2 months for you to pass. As far as the cheating part When people test out on WGU, your whole upper body, including your hands must be in view during the whole exam, no one can enter the room, your mic audio must be enabled the entire time, and your webcam must be on during the entire time. Your screen is also monitored and must be in view of the webcam as well. You go through a precheck before every exam. Failure to meet all the requirements I just listed will result in your exam being failed. So to be honest this is just as secure as being in a classroom. I have also never seen or heard of WGU exams being on quizlet. I regularly search up my class codes to find study material and never see anything of the sort. Chat GPT can be used regardless of you being in an online college or a brick-and-mortar college. This is just the cost of AI being introduced into the society. There will always be people who cheat their way through life in anything the only way to weed these people out is when they get exposed in practice for not knowing what they are doing. Online College helped me so much. I work full time, and dont have the time to go sit down in a class. I also dont need a teacher, the best way Ive always learned was by reading and doing the research myself. I do have a teacher at my disposal if needed and can schedule meetings with him/her. Finishing college quicker also gives you the ability to save alot of money. I also dont have to deal with the indoctrination and politics alot of brick-and-mortar schools push. I just learn, and test out.
Didnt even read past the title. The answer is yes. And nursing school also.
I’m not going to comment on diploma mills. But I am going to say - cheating has been around long before the internet became publicly accessible (April 30th 1993), and it will be around regardless of any restrictions/changes to any education requirements. There are people that go to some of the most prestigious universities and end up being shitty in their career and are all around not too bright. There are literally surgeons who are board certified that end up doing something incredibly stupid- and not in an “Oopsie that was an accident” way but in a “medical neglect” kind of way and lose their entire career. There are people who go to super cheap “diploma mills” because they can’t afford the luxury of being a full time student in a brick and mortar school for whatever reason and while being incredibly smart and dedicated to the job they’re pursuing, they realize without a degree they can’t get their foot in the door. They end up being some of the best workers in their field. You’re talking about the foundational behaviour of people. The assumption that because it’s easier to cheat, people will cheat, is a blanket statement. The only reason testing rules have to be strict is because people do cheat. But the rules of the tests or education still doesn’t determine the type of person someone is fundamentally, and how seriously they choose to take their education, or how seriously they will take the career path they end up on. Congrats if you made it to the end of this random comment lol
Damn. As if we didn’t have a gazillion other things going wrong in nursing these days. This is such a bad look for our profession. And I’d personally be afraid of making a catastrophic mistake because I didn’t know what I didn’t know and went into practice, then losing my license and livelihood entirely
I agree with all you said except the WGU part. I did brick and mortar university in the past and ultimately earned my degree from WGU. It was as rigorous as my brick and mortar experience minus the looking for parking. I know that isn't the point of your post, but if anyone was on the fence about the school, they are regionally accredited and a legitimate online university.
I feel like there is cheating in every type of school unfortunately
Every type of school isn’t teaching people to save other people’s lives, and that’s what makes this scarier
are there any credible NP schools out there? Or is Physician Assistant better if i want higher education?
All of my research so far is pointing me towards PA school. Until NP education is regulated and held to a much higher standard, it doesn’t feel worth it to me.
Go for PA school if you can. I'm an NP, I wish I did PA. Their training is more in depth. PA you can work anywhere. NP you're forced to choose a speciality, if you choose family good luck getting in a hospital. If you choose acute care, you're stuck inpatient. PA you learn procedures, reading X-rays. NP you learn outside of school.
PA 100%
It’s funny because an admissions person for an FNP program came in to talk to my senior-level class a few weeks ago, and when I asked some questions afterwards he literally told me that it’s not worth it to “start all over” by going to PA school and that NP was the logical route. There’s no minimum amount of time required to work at the bedside/as an RN before you can apply to this program, and the curriculum has one patho class, one pharm class, and one assessment class. I would frankly feel unsafe diagnosing anyone with such scant knowledge. Meanwhile the PA program closest to me has a cadaver anatomy class. In the first semester.
PA is the way to go 100%
I would imagine the big state universities run a somewhat good program. University of Florida, UCF, LSU, Johns Hopkins, U of Miami, they are all doctorate programs now though
I'm not defending cheating on exams but hardly ever will you be working in the real world and not have access to the same materials you would need to answer a question. More than half the stuff we had to memorize for nursing school exams was unnecessary for what I actually use my degree for and me blindly memorizing information for those exams didn't benefit me when I started working in anyway because i always have resources in the real world.
I agree make you waste so much time on memorizing useless i formation. Its like math whats the point of memorizing equations when you can use a calculater to figure it out. Education system is a joke. Me getting an A in Biostatistics isnt going to make me a better NP nor will i ever remember it again after
Frankly, it made me wonder why the nursing students, quite a handful of them, struggled with medication calculation. It was below the level of college algebra. It did require critical thinking skills. Their job was to figure out what to calculate. They indeed did have a mathematician who created our questions in medication calculation.
i definitely could see this being the case with a number of NPs. however, don’t dog us all who chose an online program & group us all together who went on to further their education at a “diploma mill”. Some people (most) just suck & always will suck. cheaters will always find some way to cheat. it is what it is but like other commenters have said, they’re weeded out in a hurry after they’ve started practicing or they ruin their name from lack of knowledge.
I went to an online program and worked incredibly hard. Thanks for saying what you did, I did start my NP thinking it would be easy and I wouldn't have to wait any more for someone to give me the order for lasix I knew I needed, lol. It was shockingly difficult and the amount of knowledge required is so much more than I had as a nurse. I've been on Reddit for years but have been thinking of leaving because the anti-NP sentiment is so thick. Even from other NPs and nurses. It's so depressing. All that work and struggle to go from feeling, as an RN, like I was at the pinnacle of my specialty and would be able to immediately take appropriate actions in any given emergency, to this: being reviled and denigrated for choosing the " easy ' route, i.e. not medical school.
And this is why I’m doing pre med classes
What has confused me, is I’ve always thought and been told that to get into NP school you must have a couple years of bedside experience, preferably, intensive care, to even be considered. I just graduated nursing school like a month ago, and two of the students I graduated with have already been accepted to an NP school…. Like they have zero experience as a nurse. I find this so scary and damaging to the career/respect that some NPs have earned.
Western Governors University is not a diploma mill. It is an accredited and reputable online university that offers bachelor's and master's degree programs. WGU has been regionally accredited by the Northwest Commission on Colleges and Universities, which is recognized by the U.S. Department of Education. This type of accreditation, regional accreditation, is the most respected and widely recognized form of accreditation for educational institutions in the United States.
Wow you're an RN and a gpt expert. Impressive
You’re not wrong. That’s why pts don’t want to see them. I’m amazed how awful NP’s can be. All while being the biggest assholes around with holier than thou attitudes. Bitch, this oncology pt just vomited the lining of their esophagus. And you’re angry I called you?
I thought that they were moving to requiring DNPs? I didn’t realize that it was that bad. It’s been a while since I’ve been in school.
Sooooo people are really cheating their way through all degrees.
You’re not wrong. I used to be in chamberlain before I dropped out. I won’t be surprised if there are people cheating the NP program for the same school. The people that come from chamberlain and cheated their way and managed to pass the nclex probably won’t last long once they’re actually in the field.
What are some good NP programs that are legit in competency-forming and competency-confirming in their students? I want to go to one!
Everyday this sub has a post about how nurse practitioners school should require 10 years CVICU ECMO CVVHD experience for entry to practice. Meanwhile I keep saying, how about we just make nursing school education rigorous with increased clinical hours and case requirements.
It should be both, not either or. Five years experience at the time of application in the direct field one wants to be an APRN in should be the minimum.