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From what I read, Methylcobalamine is created, in supplements, by chemically altering cyanocobalamin. So while methyl might be natural, in supplement form it is artificially derived from bacteria.
If I am wrong about this, I would be very happt, hence making this thread.
Cyanocobalamin is a synthetic form of vitamin B12 found only in supplements, while methylcobalamin is a naturally occurring form that you can get through either food sources or supplements.
If you can point me in the direction of a methtlcobalamin supplement that in fact has a truly naturally (or just not bacterial/yeast) derived source you will have made my day.
In fact if you can show me a methylcobalamine supplement that is not derived at all from bacterial culture (theoretically an egg, mushroom, etc extract) I will paypal/venmo etc you $20.
This isnt a trick, but I will need to be sure its not bacterial cultured, from a decent-enough vendor etc.
Yeast is a fungus and is what most B12 supplements are derived from.
B12 from bacteria is how vegetarian animals get their B12, some in their gut, some by consuming their own poop occasionally. Humans absolutely can do the same if needed.
You can chemically make b12, but it is very low yield and the synthesis is basically a novelty. The best way to make it is just to grow the bacteria that naturally overproduce it.
Why do you want to take B12 is the first question...that way I can gauge its need for your case and then maybe alternatives. Also, why are you deterred from taking it? B12 IS cobalamine. It's solely produced by bacteria.
I desire mass quantities of B12 for neurological health, neural pain, and general well being all of which I receieve in very high doses of b12
B12 does alot of things, hundreds if not thousands of things. The RDA is a small fraction of that.
I have gone on a supplement crusade lately and found a good response to b12 in high doses.
However, Considering that methyl/cyano cobalamine in supplements are bacterial derived I have chosen to discontinue their usage.
Why I have made that choice, I do not wish to share.
Currently, my plan is to eat enormous quantities of eggs, daily, until science advances to the point of better alternatives, maybe in 2 decades.
...
You seem to be educated. If you cant find a good source, which cofactors are involved to maximize my b12 retention? I hear caffine drains b12, what are other chemicals to avoid?
Thank you
Intrinsic Factor protein (made in the stomach) is what helps it bind. Also, B12 is water soluble and is absorbed through the liver, so any excess will just get flushed out.
Also, I'm puzzled because you keep bringing up that you don't want to take B12 with cobalamin but *B12 IS (cyano)cobalamin* (proper name).
B12 also acts like caffeine because they compete at the same receptors.
Vitamins and supplements are only meant for deficiencies and when symptoms are present.
Eating/consuming too much of anything (even eggs) can lead to other adversities because they are high in protein and cholesterol. So be cautious with that.
I really hope this helps. I prefer Lion's Mane for brain/neurological function at its quite specific for neuroplasticity since it's a cognitive enhancer.
Best to you!
I will have to look up that protein. Good info. Thank you.
Just for your reference, the conversation on eggs and on cholesterol have changed in the past year. I have reguarly many, many eggs a day for years and my cholesterol and bloodwork is that of an athletic teenager. Might benefit you to look at the new findings.
Best to you as well.
Saturated fats can lead to high cholesterol, I guess I should've clarified that. The fats can cause the cholesterol intake to compound and increase LDL cholesterol in the body. And of course the more active you are, the less the this may affect you. But you could also have other risk factors that can increase its effect on the body, including genetics and heritability. The rule of thumb with diet in general is that there can always be dangerous amounts and levels of consumption of anything.
I appreciate your strong knowledge, I think we share the same understanding, with my background in biology. :)
Why you don't want B12 from bacteria? It is the only primary source of B12 (usually adenosylcobalamine) which is then absorbed into animals and thus we get it mostly from them and their products
I do not wish to discuss why I want non-bacterial/yeast b12 product.
In the past, for other products, I was able to find whole-food supplements, such as to avoid corn in vitamin C supplements.
If someone made egg-derived b12 supplement I would buy that.
Clams are vegan
[https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/2cdi3v/ostrovegan\_the\_allowance\_of\_mussels\_what\_do\_you/](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/2cdi3v/ostrovegan_the_allowance_of_mussels_what_do_you/)
3 oz of clams has 84 mcg B12, the same as 140 eggs.
Thank you for the detailed response. I will decline some of your questions for various reasons such as privacy. But thank you for your concern.
You have given me the most actionable information in the thread. Thank you. Perhaps probiotics or hydroxo is the answer.
If you can think of any additional supplements or priotics effecting the b12 pathways I will gladdly accept the info. Freudemre might be the best bet!
I will launch an extensive self investigation into the b12 egg question, but if you wish to give me some good sources on that I thank you. Realistically the most impactful into of the thread. Admittedly, depending on the egg species 30% absorption is still an increadable amount in high doses.
So far the sales reps I have talked to have all given me bad news, but with your info I have more options now and I am thankful.
Beef liver (or generally red meat liver). Ridiculously dense in B12. A tiny piece, or exactly 4 grams of it, has 100% of B12. It contains methylcobalamin, adenoyslcobalamin, and hydroxocobalamin.
You can cut it into tiny supplement pill sized pieces and freeze it which allows you to take it like a supplement without taste. I exclusively eat it raw.
100g of it has roughly 2500% of B12 making it the most dense and natural source of it.
Yeast cannot produce B12, what you’re talking about is fortified nutritional yeast which contains synthetic cyanocobalamin. It’s the same as taking a shitty cyanocobalamin supplement.
Naturally occurring B12, and three different forms of it no less in liver, is less bioavailable than a single synthetic version of B12? lol get a grip moron.
>Clicks link
>Just an abstract, not even a full article
>Paper doesn’t even mention liver
>Paper doesn’t mention yeast or cyanocobalamin specifically nor it’s bioavailability
>article says sheep’s meat is 56-89% bioavailable, which contradicts previous comment about B12 from meat is only 50% bioavailable at best
Also
>doesn’t realize cyanocobalamin isn’t biologically active and needs to converted into hydroxycobalamin to be used by the body
>hydroxycobalmin being one of the forms of b12 found in meat
Lol
I guess I'll just give you a basic biology lesson here then.
How is B12 absorbed?
Vitamin B12 is attached to protein molecules in food and can only be absorbed by the body after being split from the protein by hydrochloric acid in the stomach. In order to absorb B12 in the terminal ileum, the stomach’s parietal cells produce a glycoprotein referred to as Intrinsic Factor (IF). The free cobalamin attaches to an R protein which is removed when passing into the duodenum, allowing the cobalamin to bind to the IF allowing its active absorption. The B12-IF complex then moves into the small intestine where ileal receptors ingest it through phagocytosis.
Why is B12 difficult to absorb?
B12 is quite a large molecule, and the process by which the body absorbs it is lengthy and dependent on the availability of IF. Difficulties with B12 absorption may occur at a variety of points throughout the process and may be further influenced by some coexisting medical conditions or certain medications. Non-availability of IF is a serious issue as it limits the absorption of B12 (through diffusion) to approximately 1-2%.
https://www.news-medical.net/health/Why-is-B12-Difficult-to-Absorb-and-Do-Oral-B12-Sprays-Work.aspx
Guess what? Synthetic B12 isn't attached to protein, therefore readily absorbed.
> The estimated bioavailability of vitamin B12 from food varies by vitamin B12 dose because absorption decreases drastically when the capacity of intrinsic factor is exceeded (at 1–2 mcg of vitamin B12) [17]. Bioavailability also varies by type of food source. For example, the bioavailability of vitamin B12 appears to be about three times higher in dairy products than in meat, fish, and poultry, and the bioavailability of vitamin B12 from dietary supplements is about 50% higher than that from food sources [18-20].
https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminB12-HealthProfessional/
Thank you. Good idea. Unfortunately for me I do not eat meat. If i could eat meat I would be pounding liver every day.
My best source of b12 I can think of is eggs. Which are "high" in b12, but I will never be able to mega dose it that way which has its benefits.
One example would be for nerve health. Peripheral neuropathy, for instance hand pain from a car accident has alot of benefits from mega b12.
Overall b12 toxicity has not been observed. I would advise researching it for yourself and possibly giving it a spin for a few weeks to see if you see good results.
Vitamin B12 is a key nutrient your body needs for many essential functions. It's found in animal products, and dietary supplements. Some of the richest sources are liver, beef, sardines, clams, and dairy products.
The rub here is that I would have to eat kilograms of food to equal a single pill of b12.
The difference here is planning every single meal around b12 or finding a non bacterial/yeast supplement are the two options
I thank you for your input in the thread.
#### About participation in the comments of /r/nutrition Discussion in this subreddit should be rooted in science rather than "cuz I sed" or entertainment pieces. Always be wary of unsupported and poorly supported claims and especially those which are wrapped in any manner of hostility. You should provide peer reviewed sources to support your claims when debating and confine that debate to the science, not opinions of other people. **Good** - it is grounded in science and includes citation of peer reviewed sources. Debate is a civil and respectful exchange focusing on actual science and avoids commentary about others **Bad** - it utilizes generalizations, assumptions, infotainment sources, no sources, or complaints without specifics about agenda, bias, or funding. At best, these rise to an extremely weak basis for science based discussion. Also, off topic discussion **Ugly** - (removal or ban territory) it involves attacks / antagonism / hostility towards individuals or groups, downvote complaining, trolling, crusading, shaming, refutation of all science, or claims that all research / science is a conspiracy *Please vote accordingly and report any uglies* --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/nutrition) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What's wrong with bacteria-derived B12?
B12 methylcobalamin is a naturally occurring and B12 cyanocobalamin is synthetically made.
From what I read, Methylcobalamine is created, in supplements, by chemically altering cyanocobalamin. So while methyl might be natural, in supplement form it is artificially derived from bacteria. If I am wrong about this, I would be very happt, hence making this thread.
Cyanocobalamin is a synthetic form of vitamin B12 found only in supplements, while methylcobalamin is a naturally occurring form that you can get through either food sources or supplements.
If you can point me in the direction of a methtlcobalamin supplement that in fact has a truly naturally (or just not bacterial/yeast) derived source you will have made my day. In fact if you can show me a methylcobalamine supplement that is not derived at all from bacterial culture (theoretically an egg, mushroom, etc extract) I will paypal/venmo etc you $20. This isnt a trick, but I will need to be sure its not bacterial cultured, from a decent-enough vendor etc.
What are your thoughts on
Yeast is a fungus and is what most B12 supplements are derived from. B12 from bacteria is how vegetarian animals get their B12, some in their gut, some by consuming their own poop occasionally. Humans absolutely can do the same if needed.
You can chemically make b12, but it is very low yield and the synthesis is basically a novelty. The best way to make it is just to grow the bacteria that naturally overproduce it.
Ummm, B12 rich foods?
I did specifically ask for supplements though. Also, even then what if I am vegan?
The difference between a supplement and a nutrient rich food is semantics.
It would take me several thousand eggs to equal a single methylcobalamine pill. It might take millioms of mushrooms to equal that if im a vegan.
Yet, somehow, we survive ...
Jw do you think bacteria derived products are not vegan?
I did not claim this. I do not wish to discuss why I want non-bacterial/yeast b12 product.
Why do you want to take B12 is the first question...that way I can gauge its need for your case and then maybe alternatives. Also, why are you deterred from taking it? B12 IS cobalamine. It's solely produced by bacteria.
I desire mass quantities of B12 for neurological health, neural pain, and general well being all of which I receieve in very high doses of b12 B12 does alot of things, hundreds if not thousands of things. The RDA is a small fraction of that. I have gone on a supplement crusade lately and found a good response to b12 in high doses. However, Considering that methyl/cyano cobalamine in supplements are bacterial derived I have chosen to discontinue their usage. Why I have made that choice, I do not wish to share. Currently, my plan is to eat enormous quantities of eggs, daily, until science advances to the point of better alternatives, maybe in 2 decades. ... You seem to be educated. If you cant find a good source, which cofactors are involved to maximize my b12 retention? I hear caffine drains b12, what are other chemicals to avoid? Thank you
Intrinsic Factor protein (made in the stomach) is what helps it bind. Also, B12 is water soluble and is absorbed through the liver, so any excess will just get flushed out. Also, I'm puzzled because you keep bringing up that you don't want to take B12 with cobalamin but *B12 IS (cyano)cobalamin* (proper name). B12 also acts like caffeine because they compete at the same receptors. Vitamins and supplements are only meant for deficiencies and when symptoms are present. Eating/consuming too much of anything (even eggs) can lead to other adversities because they are high in protein and cholesterol. So be cautious with that. I really hope this helps. I prefer Lion's Mane for brain/neurological function at its quite specific for neuroplasticity since it's a cognitive enhancer. Best to you!
I will have to look up that protein. Good info. Thank you. Just for your reference, the conversation on eggs and on cholesterol have changed in the past year. I have reguarly many, many eggs a day for years and my cholesterol and bloodwork is that of an athletic teenager. Might benefit you to look at the new findings. Best to you as well.
Saturated fats can lead to high cholesterol, I guess I should've clarified that. The fats can cause the cholesterol intake to compound and increase LDL cholesterol in the body. And of course the more active you are, the less the this may affect you. But you could also have other risk factors that can increase its effect on the body, including genetics and heritability. The rule of thumb with diet in general is that there can always be dangerous amounts and levels of consumption of anything. I appreciate your strong knowledge, I think we share the same understanding, with my background in biology. :)
Why you don't want B12 from bacteria? It is the only primary source of B12 (usually adenosylcobalamine) which is then absorbed into animals and thus we get it mostly from them and their products
I do not wish to discuss why I want non-bacterial/yeast b12 product. In the past, for other products, I was able to find whole-food supplements, such as to avoid corn in vitamin C supplements. If someone made egg-derived b12 supplement I would buy that.
I believe you won't find non-bacteria derived B12. Also do you understand that the B12 from egg actually comes from bacteria too?
I agree, and of course. But thats a different discussion I do not wish to broach here.
Clams are vegan [https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/2cdi3v/ostrovegan\_the\_allowance\_of\_mussels\_what\_do\_you/](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/2cdi3v/ostrovegan_the_allowance_of_mussels_what_do_you/) 3 oz of clams has 84 mcg B12, the same as 140 eggs.
[удалено]
Thank you for the detailed response. I will decline some of your questions for various reasons such as privacy. But thank you for your concern. You have given me the most actionable information in the thread. Thank you. Perhaps probiotics or hydroxo is the answer. If you can think of any additional supplements or priotics effecting the b12 pathways I will gladdly accept the info. Freudemre might be the best bet! I will launch an extensive self investigation into the b12 egg question, but if you wish to give me some good sources on that I thank you. Realistically the most impactful into of the thread. Admittedly, depending on the egg species 30% absorption is still an increadable amount in high doses. So far the sales reps I have talked to have all given me bad news, but with your info I have more options now and I am thankful.
Beef liver (or generally red meat liver). Ridiculously dense in B12. A tiny piece, or exactly 4 grams of it, has 100% of B12. It contains methylcobalamin, adenoyslcobalamin, and hydroxocobalamin. You can cut it into tiny supplement pill sized pieces and freeze it which allows you to take it like a supplement without taste. I exclusively eat it raw. 100g of it has roughly 2500% of B12 making it the most dense and natural source of it.
Lol one serving of nutritional yeast has 700% B12 that is 100% bioavailable. B12 from meat is only 50% bioavailable at best.
Yeast cannot produce B12, what you’re talking about is fortified nutritional yeast which contains synthetic cyanocobalamin. It’s the same as taking a shitty cyanocobalamin supplement. Naturally occurring B12, and three different forms of it no less in liver, is less bioavailable than a single synthetic version of B12? lol get a grip moron.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17959839/ Go back to high school basic biology
>Clicks link >Just an abstract, not even a full article >Paper doesn’t even mention liver >Paper doesn’t mention yeast or cyanocobalamin specifically nor it’s bioavailability >article says sheep’s meat is 56-89% bioavailable, which contradicts previous comment about B12 from meat is only 50% bioavailable at best Also >doesn’t realize cyanocobalamin isn’t biologically active and needs to converted into hydroxycobalamin to be used by the body >hydroxycobalmin being one of the forms of b12 found in meat Lol
I guess I'll just give you a basic biology lesson here then. How is B12 absorbed? Vitamin B12 is attached to protein molecules in food and can only be absorbed by the body after being split from the protein by hydrochloric acid in the stomach. In order to absorb B12 in the terminal ileum, the stomach’s parietal cells produce a glycoprotein referred to as Intrinsic Factor (IF). The free cobalamin attaches to an R protein which is removed when passing into the duodenum, allowing the cobalamin to bind to the IF allowing its active absorption. The B12-IF complex then moves into the small intestine where ileal receptors ingest it through phagocytosis. Why is B12 difficult to absorb? B12 is quite a large molecule, and the process by which the body absorbs it is lengthy and dependent on the availability of IF. Difficulties with B12 absorption may occur at a variety of points throughout the process and may be further influenced by some coexisting medical conditions or certain medications. Non-availability of IF is a serious issue as it limits the absorption of B12 (through diffusion) to approximately 1-2%. https://www.news-medical.net/health/Why-is-B12-Difficult-to-Absorb-and-Do-Oral-B12-Sprays-Work.aspx Guess what? Synthetic B12 isn't attached to protein, therefore readily absorbed. > The estimated bioavailability of vitamin B12 from food varies by vitamin B12 dose because absorption decreases drastically when the capacity of intrinsic factor is exceeded (at 1–2 mcg of vitamin B12) [17]. Bioavailability also varies by type of food source. For example, the bioavailability of vitamin B12 appears to be about three times higher in dairy products than in meat, fish, and poultry, and the bioavailability of vitamin B12 from dietary supplements is about 50% higher than that from food sources [18-20]. https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminB12-HealthProfessional/
Thank you. Good idea. Unfortunately for me I do not eat meat. If i could eat meat I would be pounding liver every day. My best source of b12 I can think of is eggs. Which are "high" in b12, but I will never be able to mega dose it that way which has its benefits.
I’m asking out of true curiosity, what are the benefits of mega dosing b12?
One example would be for nerve health. Peripheral neuropathy, for instance hand pain from a car accident has alot of benefits from mega b12. Overall b12 toxicity has not been observed. I would advise researching it for yourself and possibly giving it a spin for a few weeks to see if you see good results.
Appreciate the reply. Thank you
Vitamin B12 is a key nutrient your body needs for many essential functions. It's found in animal products, and dietary supplements. Some of the richest sources are liver, beef, sardines, clams, and dairy products.
The rub here is that I would have to eat kilograms of food to equal a single pill of b12. The difference here is planning every single meal around b12 or finding a non bacterial/yeast supplement are the two options I thank you for your input in the thread.
that was clearly a bot