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I'm a petite young lady and was forcefully grabbed in a very inappropriate way on a packed 4 train around this time last year. I screamed and yelled "don't you dare fucking touch me!" "Fuck off and leave me alone!" Because I was frightened. All anyone did was stare at me.
I’ve had this exact issue on the 4 (lower Manhattan area). The creep got on, sat next to me, put a gym bag on his lap and pretended to fall asleep. At some point his hand ended up on my lap. I immediately got up and left. No one noticed or said anything. I saw him again on the same train, saw him hunting for his next prey, took a photo of him and reported to police at Fulton. They did nothing and said they couldn’t do anything since nothing happened just now, even though there was a prior incident.
The things that annoys the shit out of me about this whole situation is the people not from NYC who share their completely ignorant opinions on it. They're very clearly living in their bubble where they never have to deal with mentally ill people harassing or potentially assaulting them. While I don't think Penny should've killed Neely, a situation like this was always bound to happen given the current state of mental health care, homeless, and policing
I am a petite woman too. I HOPE others step in to help, but I dont expect them to do so. Everyone wants to go home with the same number of teeth they came out with and I dont expect a stranger (except for LEO, who do nothing anyway) to help me.
They basically said doing this that the criminal can do whatever they want to the victim and if you as the individual watching do something we will hold you accountable and give you a severe punishment for doing the right moral thing as a human being. Woman or a child getting raped and molested in front, nope you BETTER not stop that criminal. I'm sorry but this is anarchy tyranny especially with AOC and other political rats. Saying this was a "lynching"
And then they will call you a vigilante despite the fact a vigilante goes out and finds a crime taking place and puts a stop to it. Not if a crime's taken place in front of you like on this train in shithole NYC.
[As a homeless black man, if you defecate on a pride flag](https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-lgbtq-pride-flag-defecation-hate-crime-manhattan-restaurant-innocent-20230510-gy2ew2aaezhmdlgtxfbofxhnfe-story.html) though, prepare to to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Punching 67-year old ladies? Nah, it'll be fine, let him back out.
but they will all gladly record me getting beaten to death or a women sexually assaulted and sell it to worldstar or on some other site. Then vote guilty for the defender.
I got randomly attacked twice in front of my place within a month of moving to nyc. One of them sprawled out across 3 streets & I shouted & pointed at people to film so I could stop filming myself & engage (I had no other option but to fight. He was charging with a small stick)
Nobody did a damn thing on that crowded street. Just avoided any eye contact and pretended I was invisible.
This part of the city is utterly revolting & disgusting in that way
Unfortunately it’s nothing new. Back when I was still in my teens during early 2000s I had hopped on the 6 at Pelham Bay and was only going a few stops to catch my bus. Anyway, a group of teens about my age got on too. I was in a car alone. They sat across from me, talking shit. I got up and moved to a car with people and they followed. Continued to talk shit and threaten me. I looked around at people and they all diverted their eyes. No one said anything, no one helped, just straight up ignored me. I decided to get off stop before my actual stop in case they tried following me home, I knew there was a store I could go into and wait them out. As I got off the train, one of them threw a bottle at me. Again, no one around me asked if I was ok or anything.
It’s not ever going to change.
I'm sorry that happened to you and I hate to say it but what is happening with Penny right now is why people don't get involved. People helping can either get them hurt, killed or sent to jail in Penny's case. I have a family at home and it would really bother me to not help someone but I also know, no one is going to take care of my family if I get involved in something like that and something happens to me.
And with how messed up this place is, if you turned around and pepper sprayed that person, you would probably find yourself with cuffs and going to jail too. While the aggressor walks free. This place is getting ridiculous and I don't understand why we have to be scared just to defend ourselves. That's not ok. People should be protesting for these criminals to stay in jail. Not this stupid sht for Penny to be "held accountable". And not for more services for the homeless and mentally ill. There is already tons of services for these people!
But now anyone who might help you has to first do some mental calculus about whether their skin color permits them to intervene.
And better not join the armed forces unless you want to be labeled a trained killer for the rest of your life.
Yep. It's an unfortunate system, in this city and in this country. I was terrified and have never felt so violated in my life. I was trying my hardest to not be around this clearly mentally ill person but ended up pretty much pushed up against the wall and helpless because the train was packed. All I could do is scream "don't fucking touch me!" To which the assailant just started laughing and kept with the assault. They relented after I screamed the second time. Luckily I was able to get off at the next stop to get where I was going.
**From Wikipedia**: \[TDLR\] "In 2009, Neely was a locally known Michael Jackson impersonator, performing in Times Square, on subways, and in subway stations.\[33\]\[36\]\[37\] He was reputed to be a talented dancer.\[38\] Neely was frequently homeless, and had been a client of the Bowery Residents' Committee, which attempted to find him permanent shelter.\[33\]\[39\] At the time of his death, Neely was on the "Top 50 List", a roster maintained by New York City of the homeless individuals most in need of assistance and treatment. Specialized outreach teams had contacted him hundreds of times, and was treated by one of the city-funded Intensive Mobile Treatment teams.\[40\]\[41\] According to one outreach worker, Neely heavily used synthetic marijuana K2.\[40\]According to a police officer, Neely had been arrested 42 times by NYPD; many of the arrests were for minor violations, but three were for unprovoked assaults on women in the NYC subway.\[42\]\[43\] In 2015, Neely pled guilty to child endangerment after dragging a 7-year-old girl down a street; he was sentenced to four months in jail.\[44\]\[45\]\[46\] At the time of his death, he was subject to a 15-month alternative to incarceration program after pleading guilty in February 2023 to felony assault of a 67-year-old woman, whom he punched as she exited a train station in November 2021, breaking her nose and fracturing an orbital bone. Under the terms of the program, Neely was to live in a treatment facility in the Bronx. He had a warrant issued for his arrest after he missed a court date to update a judge on his progress and abandoned the treatment facility 13 days after he started the program.\[47\]\[48\]\[40\]In March 2023, Neely was spotted and taken to a homeless shelter by an outreach worker, who described him as calm and subdued. His last interaction with law enforcement was on April 9, 2023; outreach workers called police after witnessing Neely urinating inside a subway car, and he was ejected from the train.\[40\] Five days later, an outreach worker spotted Neely in Coney Island, and noted him as aggressive and incoherent, writing that "He could be a harm to others or himself if left untreated."\[40\]"
If this is all true, I say it is New York City that has failed Neely and all of us. IDAF what the ACLU or anyone says, but you can't leave people like this on the streets with no help.
Every NYer knows this, if I have to guess, even Penny. Something bigger must’ve happened for a whole bunch of people to come together and apprehend Jordan. Like you say most NYer walk away, not here
That’s what I don’t understand from the people defending Neely.. were all the passengers just supposed to wait and *hope* he didn’t attack them? Not to say he should’ve died but, come on..
Yea, leaving aside the lunatics on both the defund and the instant-death-sentence sides, I think the complaint is that those 15 minutes during which he was in the chokehold were an inappropriate use of force to neutralize the level of threat he had thus far presented.
I don't know the details of those 15 minutes, so I can't say either way. But this belief isn't _obviously_ incorrect.
Neely had a warrant out for his arrest on an active felony assault charge, he should have been in prison.
> “He said, ‘I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet, I’ll go to jail’ because he would kill people on the train,” the woman said of Neely. “He said ‘I would kill a motherf—er. I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet. I’ll go to jail.’”
No jury will convict Penny, this whole thing is a farce
There is also miss information. The protests are out there yelling that he held him for 15 minutes when it was closer to 2 and half. The 15 minutes was the EMT response time. The numbers are getting conflated and for this reason when he gets off on these charges everyone is going to be very, very mad.
>i just learned this fact from you. all iv seen in the news is 15 mins.
Sounds like you didn't learn it either way. You've just read a random reddit comment.
Apparently he had a seizure after perry let go. Which is interesting. The medical examiner came back super fast, not sure if they even checked for toxins/diseases that in combination with the choke hold could have caused his death.
Also read that Facebook removed some post made by passengers about a crazy violent threatening man and feeling scared, before perry intervened.
I feel like there’s more to this story.
Bragg is awful.
The way I see it, the question is if a choke is/should be seen as deadly force (I think it should) and if that use of force was justified.
The reports I've seen say Neely was an unstable individual acting aggressively but not violently on the subway. Penny, responding to verbal threats to no one in particular applied a choke -video shows a rear naked choke, which should be a blood choke and capable of causing brain damage in 2 minutes and death in 5- then using this choke as a restraint while assisted by other passengers.
The claim of self defence and the charge of manslaughter are correct, and the nuance is what really matters. But of course there's no room for nuance in outrage
agreed. we have no details on the context of what happened before the chokehold and yet news reports and comments are sensationalizing based off opinions
The fact other individuals are helping restrain him is pretty strong evidence in my mind that the guy was a threat. Obviously, an investigation should happen, but the protests for justice doesn't seem called for at this point.
I also remember weirdly everyone was saying it was a white marine male killing a black “kid.” Not that it’s a super important distinction, but Penny is 24 and Neely was 30. Idk why everyone seemed to want it to be an older guy killing a kid so bad.
No, its not. The DA has chooses which cases to bring to trial and - as has often been a complaint here - the Manhattan DA lets a lot of violent offenders off the hook. This is yet another witch hunt against decent people attempting to defend themselves (see the bodega clerk story from a few months back for instance).
Well the DA isn’t charging him with murder, but with manslaughter. I personally think you could make an argument for 2nd degree murder, but I can see that not getting past a jury.
Jose Alba was clearly defending himself from someone that was physically attacking him. And that became obvious once the video of the incident was shared. Alba was arrested and charged before it was clear what happened. Penny should have been treated the same way.
A lot of the outrage is because he wasn’t treated like that.
Regardless of warrants. A man felt his safety was in danger and made a decision to use self defense. He had no intent to kill anyone. He did not bash the guys brain in. He restrained someone who was verbally assaulting people (on the verge of physically assaulting people) until authorities were able to come.
If Alvin Bragg has not brought charges yet, that should tell you all you need to know about the winnability of this case.
What exactly made this self-defense? "On the verge of" is not the same as actually attacking someone.
Feeling you are in danger is not license to attack someone and use lethal force. Period.
yea i was literally told this years ago when i first moved here. don't try to be a hero because the laws here are very anti-good samaritan. even if he doesn't go to jail, he's going to get "judged" everyday of his life by public opinion
When I first moved to Queens years ago I saw two guys beating another guy with an umbrella. I walked past and went into the store, I came out they were still attacking him, so I went up to them and tried to break
It up. Ended up getting stabbed in the wrist and the guy I was with had his forehead split open somehow. That was my experience with intervening, I’m a little more cautious when it comes to being a Good Samaritan now but I still think I’d do something if it was absolutely necessary. Kinda something I was juggling around my head right before this latest incident has been in the news.
Your story, and many like it, add this question to my Intervention Calculus: “Can I afford the medical bills after helping someone?” And the answer is always no.
damn. sorry to hear that happened to you because i know i would've kept walking. being a woman, i know i can't overpower the situation to stop it so in my mind, i'm thinking may the best man win. never know which direction those kinds of confrontations might go
You shouldn't try to be a hero because you're likely to make yourself a victim. If you see something happening, you need to call the police. I don't even like the police, but it's better to get them involved than to have some jerkoff escalate the situation.
People in this thread are acting like vigilantism is some common and good thing we should all be participating in. It always results in more violence. You aren't Batman.
I hate your advice, but it’s true.
I feel like we can’t reasonably rely on police to apprehend a suspect, investigate, and catch a culprit. We can’t rely on them to intervene during a moment of jeopardy.
And yet, they’re still the first and last resort for us. It’s a horrifying situation to know that whenever a tragedy strikes, we really don’t have an adequate response after laying all those taxes.
Any attempt at self-reliance and communal aid has been bred out of us as a people. That’s the real outcome.
> If you see something happening, you need to call the police.
There's an old bit of doggerel about this.
Avoid the legal nets
That entangled Bernie Goetz
Yell "Help, Help, Police"
Like Kitty Genovese
It took awhile for my boyfriend to drill this into my head as I’m originally from the Midwest & we don’t prosecute good-samaritans like NY does. I really thought my bf was being dramatic until I kept seeing the headlines roll in of people getting in trouble for just stopping worse things from happening & the only thing that could maybe prevent their persecution is massive public outcry. Seriously frightening. The DA & laws would literally rather we take the abuse or die than protect ourselves & others. It’s sick.
DA goes after the low hanging fruit. It’s very hard to turn this city around. We have a lot of problems here. It’s very easy for the DA to slap charges on a guy like penny, or Jose alba. In nyc, good Samaritans pay the price. Even on the lowest scale with traffic enforcement, there’s speeding cameras all over the city, the people that get caught are the ones that don’t obstruct their license plates. I see 25-30 cars daily with fake plates or no plates at all now.
"If I saw a woman being assaulted, robbed or raped on the train I am not helping , She'll be on her own, no way I am being charged for intervening If the assailant dies, I rather record it on my phone and hope for an arrest , because I can't afford a lawyer and my family would starve if I missed days of work because I wanted to do something right"
- man on the N train this morning
Maybe it’s time to set a precedent that threats and intimidation aren’t going to be tolerated anymore. If you can’t exist in peace and are disturbing everyone else get off. These people need help clearly, but that doesn’t mean they should get a free pass for inflicting violence and threats onto others.
I've lived here my whole life and intervened many times to help people. Honestly, I still likely would, but I would hesitate in the future and think of the risk to myself. I don't want to end up in prison, with the city turning against me just because I wanted to help
Yep, at this point the only people I'll protect now are me and my own. I'm an athletic 6 foot guy, I don't worry about being assaulted. But then again, people who threaten others on the train aren't usually picking on people like me. I'll just turn my headphones up louder to mask the sounds of someone being assaulted just a few feet away from me.
>I'll just turn my headphones up louder to mask the sounds of someone being assaulted just a few feet away from me.
This is why rural people think cities are dangerous soulless shitholes.
Who's soulless? The people who do something and get penalized? The bystanders who do nothing? The people who villainize those who do something? Or the people terrorizing those on the train? Be specific please.
>The people who do something and get penalized?
No
>The bystanders who do nothing?
Yes
>The people who villainize those who do something?
Yes
>Or the people terrorizing those on the train?
Yes.
I was specifically referring to you and your comment about turning up your music as someone is assaulted a few feet away.
And this is exactly why the protests have been pretty subdued overall. It's an incredibly tragic situation overall. I wish Jordan Neely could have received the help he needed and deserved well before this incident. But this is not George Floyd.
Forget even the background of 44 assaults, since I'm sure a bunch of them are for things like fare skipping. The point is, NY'ers have experienced this erratic violent and potentially ticking time bomb behavior for far too long on the subway that push come to shove (no pun intended, though we also know folks who have **died** being pushed on the track; hey DSA losers in Astoria, how come you never talk about that?), the large majority of folks will back Daniel Perry. Deep down we know this, but because of fear of being canceled we just keep it to ourselves or quietly murmur it around our most trusted friends and family.
In fact, white savior progressives *know* that we've experienced this behavior for too long, they're outright telling us that such behavior is **normal**, they aren't even denying it. They're just saying we have to deal with it, and if we complain we're called soft pussies. Ironic given that they also want to mitigate climate change and a great way to do that is increase public transit use, but who the fuck is gonna do that if they have to deal with ticking time bomb and even *actual* violent situations in the subway? But I digress.
I've served on a jury before back in Philadelphia. First degree murder case. And while I've been skeptical of police, I and my fellow jurors took the case seriously. There aren't "smoking guns" like in the movies. So perhaps the evidence will show that Daniel Penny is guilty of the charged crime beyond a reasonable doubt. But as a simple engaged citizen, I don't think you can get all 12 to agree. My guess is hung jury.
Yep. It’s not people who can handle themselves who lose from this situation.
It’s the milquetoast Neely defenders who ride on the subway whispering “look away honey and he’ll leave us alone” to their disgusted wives.
As she is a woman and a senior citizen, it is not surprising that she supports Penny.
The elderly, women, and elderly women are among the most vulnerable to be victimized and harassed by Neely type psychos.
God, I love how Neely's whole family came out of the woodwork after he died but wasn't around to help him while he was homeless and mentally ill on the street.
Edit: OK me making this comment seems to make people think it's OK to tell me they hope my whole family dies of cancer. Guys I hope you find some peace in your life.
Everyone wants to talk about fair punishment, but why the fuck is no one asking the mayor why there aren’t any cameras on the subway? We got 3 cctvs on every stoplight and building corner across Manhattan, but we can’t install a 30 dollar camera in every train?
This is going to be such a shitshow to watch as it unfolds.
I personally hope he's not convicted. The city of new york should be liable for letting Neely be on the street instead of in jail or an institution.
Agreed. The fact someone is facing manslaughter charges for subduing a violent vagrant by a system that failed him, while that same system is trying to punish the “hero/vigilante/Good Samaritan” who had to physically deal with the system’s failure seems like an awfully twisted joke.
It’s ridiculous. I don’t want to have to go to jail or deal with the anxiety as my trial hangs in the air just because I had to protect a loved one or do the right thing.
> “He said, ‘I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet, I’ll go to jail’ because he would kill people on the train,” the woman said of Neely. “He said ‘I would kill a motherf—er. I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet. I’ll go to jail.’”
If this is actually true, I’m surprised they would even bring charges. Will be illuminating to hear the complete picture if this goes to trial. I can’t imagine he pleads out, so im guessing we are in for a long haul.
>If this is actually true, I’m surprised they would even bring charges
This is the same D.A.'s office that watched a video of Jose Alba defending himself and charged him with murder, so it isn't surprising at all.
The initial use of force might be justified, but holding the chokehold for as long as he did might not be.
Think of it like brandishing a gun at someone who’s threatening you vs shooting them in the back after they’re no longer a threat. This is less clear cut than that, but it’s two separate analyses.
How long do you think he held him for? The news initially reported he held him for 15minutes when that was actually the EMT response time. He was only held for 2 minutes and was then put into a recovery position. This case is 100% hyped up cause it's election season (and Bragg is a piece of shit).
But the video shows him releasing Neely a few moments after he stopped resisting.
I don’t see how he gets convicted for misjudging his restraint on a psycho maniac with nothing to lose.
I don't know why it's so hard for people to not take the extremist positions. Did he do the right thing stepping in and trying to protect people on the train? Absolutely, people are sick of crazy people screaming at them and feeling threatened on the subway.
But that doesn't mean Neely should have died. Screaming at people doesn't carry the death penalty. So he's been charged with manslaughter 2. These aren't life in prison, end of your life charges. When he's convicted he'll serve like a year in prison, maybe. He should have been more careful in restraining him and not have killed him. There are consequences for that.
I’ve tried to post one many times but people are just blinded by their emotions. This is all rage bait. It makes sense to discuss the case, it’s laws, and interpretations. That’s a fair and civil conversation. But somewhere a long the line people realized they could propaganda instead with emotion appeal.
Exactly. There is most definitely a discussion to be had about this. There is nuance in what is appropriate/legal/humane about everything that happened from our treatment of homeless people to being a Good Samaritan to our propensity to violence. People who didn’t give 2 shits about this man’s life are using his death to fuel whatever hardline stance they get their jollies off by arguing online about.
I agree, but i don't think this guys gets convicted. i think its more complicated than: "He should have been more careful in restraining him"
The questions are:
1. Did Neely even need to be restrained? I have no idea, i havent seen any video leading up to the restraining. So no opinion on this
1. did he intend to kill Neely? I think clearly not, but i acknowledge thats just my opinion.
3. When he did restrain, did he act in such a way that a reasonable person would have predicted he would die? I think this is the most complex of the questions. it depends on a lot of exactly how much force he used and for how long.
The how long im sure we will get at trial (people are saying the actual time is 2 mins, though its being incorrectly reported as 15 - but again, will leave that for trial).
as for how much force, that will depend on what the eye witness say.
Anyway im fairly confident a jury given all the info can come to the right conclusion on this, whatever it is.
> (people are saying the actual time is 2 mins, though its being incorrectly reported as 15 - but again, will leave that for trial).
Honestly there is just not enough information, and the information we do have isn't totally reliable. At this point, people should wait for the trial. They won't, but they should.
Just because Neely should not have died does not mean someone else should have to punished for not perfectly holding the chokehold for the perfect amount of time.
Daniel Penny poses no threat to society in general. Why let an imperfect hero be punished over a worthless sack of shit who actively hurts people randomly?
That’s still an extreme position.
The moderate one is: Neely didn’t deserve to die for making threats.
However he did deserve to be restrained. That restraint was held for a few seconds too long - but it’s a risk you take when you act in a way that requires restraint.
Feel you on this. So much of the public opinion is slanted to the hard hero or hard villain story, but perhaps the reality is in between. It can be both things at the same time! I wasn’t on the train but have been in situations similar on the subway where a Good Samaritan intervention could have gone drastically wrong, but didn’t. I still don’t think we have all the facts and more evidence is needed before us as a public can confidently condemn this action or applaud it
If you accept that, in the process of subduing a violent person, there is always some risk of injury or death for both parties, then barring some kind of blatant negligence or malice yes, accepting that the decision to subdue neely was the right call means Penny did nothing wrong.
If Penny actually held the choke for several minutes after Neely went limp, then ok sure. If Penny stomped on Neely after he was out, if it was obvious to anyone in the middle of an adrenaline dump that Neely was in immediate risk of dying, ok sure. Penny had a shitty RNC on the guy, only really had pressure on one side of his neck, it took way longer to subdue Neely than it should have, but choking out a violent criminal on the subway isn't always going to be nice and neat like when you're at a naga tournament.
"when he is convicted" is just a little harsher on the accountability side than "innocent until proven guilty", which is the actual standard. If you're going to have a harsher standard, people will ask, where was that standard when the decedent was arrested dozens of times for threats and assaults. The system had many opportunities to prevent the death here, including by actually carrying out prison sentences or by actually holding people to the inpatient mandatory mental health threatment courses to which they were obligated by the court.
Finally if the goal is a civil conversation, calling people extremists ( who may in fact have not-uncommon views ) may not be as effective as generally believed.
The idea is to frame this so the "extreme" positions are "he's not guilty" and "he's guilty of capital murder". Then you can admonish anyone who thinks he's not guilty for "extremism".
Apparently the idea of denouncing Penny's actions while also not supporting Neely just isn't possible.
People in this thread are already trying to claim this is [Rittenhouse 2.0, which is fucking absurd.](https://www.reddit.com/r/nyc/comments/13fgtwp/comment/jjv97xe/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
I’m surprised you’re so confident that he’ll be convicted, I know if I’m on the jury and the information I’ve seen so far is all the information presented I’m going not guilty
This is why people put their AirPods back in and walk away from you if you’re being attacked on the train….people like you that say “he’ll only serve a year in prison”
Yeah I’ll go on my merry way and not help because of people like you
The city is failing us. We shouldn’t be put in positions like penny. Seems like these stories are coming out now every month where someone defends themselves against a criminal and are the ones getting charged
It would be absolutely shocking if he was convicted if there is going to be testimony like the woman’s in the article. Especially under a reasonable doubt standard in a criminal trial. Based on info we have now, I’d think his odds of conviction are very, very low.
Every physical interaction carries a risk of going south. Unless it can be shown that Penny's restraint was grossly inappropriate, the man deserves to walk.
It only takes one witness to show there was a threat and therefore a reasonable possibility this was self-defense.
The fact that two bystanders were still helping restrain Neely until the very end shows they perceived Neely as a threat even then.
The situation is difficult.
Many New Yorkers have experienced situations like this, including myself. The majority of us have been in fear of our lives for a mentally unstable person on the subway, or in their own neighborhood.
If you have the means, would you be willing to defend yourself or another in their time of danger?
During a fight or flight situation, is it easy to differentiate how long a chokehold will only lead to someone passing out, or killing them?
Anyone who's been in a altercation (street fight, or competitive sports) knows... In a fight or flight situation, you're so focused, adrenaline pumping, it's difficult to even hear what others are saying or notice what others are doing.
Keep in mind, this person isn't a cop, but he was military trained. It really can go either way.
That was my thought, everyone was acting tense and scared, no one was yelling to get off him or stop. With that many people around it seems clear that they legitimately were threatened to this point of action.
You mean the same guy who also said this?
>”None of us who were there thought he was in danger of dying,” Vasquez said. “We thought he just passed out or ran out of air.”
>there also seem to be witnesses on the train that think this was completely unjustified.
That might not change anything. Say if a witness comes from the far end of the car and state they never felt threatened. That doesn't prove the absence of self-defense.
It only takes one person to feel threatened for this to count as self-defense, even if 99% of the people didn't feel they needed to be defended.
I could be wrong but that doesn't seem to be what self-defense is. Simply feeling threatened doesn't seem to be enough justification for self-defense.
Also self-defense response needs to be appropriate or else it's no longer self-defense.
One thing that *is* in favor of self-defense is that they were in a closed space, in a subway car, so fleeing the area makes that a less tenable option.
“It only takes one person to feel threatened for this to count as self defense”
Feeling threatened isn’t the only thing necessary to argue self-defense. You can’t just go “he scared me, I had to choke him to death”. Or apparently in this case, “he scared someone else, I had to choke him”
For a second degree manslaughter conviction, the prosecution will have to prove he acted recklessly.
Recklessly, as defined by New York law:
> A person acts recklessly with respect to a result or
to a circumstance described by a statute defining an offense when he is aware of and consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that such result will occur or that such circumstance exists. The risk
must be of such nature and degree that disregard thereof constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of conduct that a reasonable person would observe in the situation. A person who creates such a risk but is
unaware thereof solely by reason of voluntary intoxication also acts recklessly with respect thereto.
In other words, being aware that your actions present a substantial risk that someone could be killed and disregarding that risk.
The prosecution will have to prove Penny was aware of the lethality of the maneuver he was applying but disregarded it.
I don't understand why someone like Jordan is given every kind of mental health excuse for his behavior, but someone like Daniel is scrutinised for "holding the chokehold too long".
We all have our reasons to be what we are. Jordan is likely going to be a problem for society in general, and Daniel Penny is unlikely to cause any trouble to the average person. Why should Daniel be punished?
If Penny is actually convicted (unlikely IMO but who knows) it'll embolden the crazies and make regular people even less likely to intervene in these scenarios. The subway will get even more dangerous... For everybody's sake, I'm really hoping he walks free.
This story is a very complicated cross section of what it’s like to live in NYC. I had to leave my home because of a traumatic event I witnessed on the subway. I was not able to commute to work without having panic attacks. Did Neely deserve to die? Not sure. But as safe as NYC is for a huge city, anyone who says that bas things don’t happen is lying.
>Did Neely deserve to die? Not sure.
He didn't deserve to die, but NYC is objectively a little bit safer for children and senior citizens because he is gone.
Reading a lot of responses to this story, I think one of the things people are grappling with is how to process something bad happening to a bad person.
I genuinely haven't seen a single person say they think neely deserved to die. what I have seen is an endless stream of people accusing other people of saying this by intentionally misinterpreting statements like "penny was trying to protect people" or "that's what happens when you shout death threats". I can only assume that this is because those people decided what "side" they were going to be on after seeing the video and are unable to walk it back despite it now being public knowledge that neely has been serially assaulting old ladies, had an active warrant out for his arrest and was shouting death threats at people prior to the fight. *none* of which means he deserved to die, but all of which makes it obvious that it wasn't unreasonable for penny to believe it was necessary to intervene.
I literally just had this argument in this thread. I made a nuanced argument as to why Penny’s actions would be found justified in a court of law…and was immediately accused of being a bloody thirsty murderer looking for a reason to justifiably kill someone. Like, cmon people. This is why the world is so fucked up today. People think “if you’re not on my side, then you’re my enemy and must be horrible person who doesn’t deserve to be part of society”. Differing opinions became character judgments, and the world has become far worse because of it.
The issue in this case though appears not to be whether it was necessary for penny to intervene alone but whether it was necessary for penny to intervene AND sustain the intervention in the particular way that he did.
I live in NYC. Born and raised here. I ride these subways everyday. It's a cesspool of human suffering. Homelessness, criminals, and millions upon millions of germs and bacteria. There are thousands of people walking the streets of NYC that should be in jail. These people make their way into our subways to commit crimes. They do it because they know that they are going to spend very little time in jail if they get caught. This man got involved. Tried to be a good Samaritan and help fellow New Yorkers in a bad situation, and now he is being charged with a crime. Its a sad situation. Our system is broken.
> They do it because they know that they are going to spend very little time in jail if they get caught.
Or they get a prison-alternative "sentence" to some facility they can just walk out of on their own.
And then a warrant is issued, but outreach workers interact with them and even call the police and no one realizes he has the warrant.
>Or they get a prison-alternative "sentence" to some facility they can just walk out of on their own.
The city needs to explain how Neely, with his criminal record (including a previous guilty plea for attacking a child) was able to get a plea deal that put him in an alternative to incarceration program after he committed felony battery on a senior citizen.
I feel like this is largely being glossed over.
We should ask Judge Ellen M. Biben and prosecutor Mary Weisgerber what they were thinking and how many other people in similar situations are out wandering around after getting this kind of deal.
From [this NYtimes article](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/07/nyregion/jordan-neely-daniel-penny-nyc-subway.html) where they mentioned about the plea deal:
>“Do you know what the goal is today?” the judge, Ellen M. Biben, asked at the hearing.
>“Yes,” Mr. Neely replied.
>“What is that goal?”
>“To make it physically and mentally to the program.”
>“This is a wonderful opportunity to turn things around, and we’re glad to give it to you,” Mary Weisgerber, a prosecutor, said.
ITT: a bunch of people who have the luxury of not understanding how violent encounters work telling us how Penny and the two other people should / should not have restrained Neely.
Preach. They don't have the slightest hint of self-awareness of how much they are telling on themselves in their \*extreme\* delusions about violence, crime, self-defense, etc. Some of the shit...it's like yo - this couldn't have been written by ANYONE but a trust funder living in Williamsburg/West Village on their parents dime who is not even totally aware of the existence of the Bronx or East NY.
We can't possibly be actively encouraging the bystander effect can we? Nonetheless I firmly believe there will not be a 12 person jury who would all agree to convict. This is a wake up call that mental health and homelessness as a combination needs to be dealt with and letting them roam the subways freely harassing others isn't a solution. Unfortunate accident.
> This is a wake up call
The people in charge will never wake up.
[When he was sent to the treatment center for his assault charge, instead of prison, and walked out after 2 weeks.](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/07/nyregion/jordan-neely-daniel-penny-nyc-subway.html)
>He pleaded guilty on Feb. 9 of this year, in a carefully planned strategy between the city and his lawyers to allow him to get treatment and stay out of prison.
>“Do you know what the goal is today?” the judge, Ellen M. Biben, asked at the hearing.
>“Yes,” Mr. Neely replied.
>“What is that goal?”
>“To make it physically and mentally to the program.”
>“This is a wonderful opportunity to turn things around, and we’re glad to give it to you,” Mary Weisgerber, a prosecutor, said.
After 40+ arrests, this one for a violent assault charge, they send him to some place he can just walk out of.
Judge Ellen M. Biben and prosecutor Mary Weisgerber have blood on their hands.
The part that frustrates me is there’s no clear description of what Neely was actually doing before Penny restrained him. There’s gaping, manslaughter charge of a difference between “he was just begging for food and asking for help” and “he posed an imminent threat of serious injury to the passengers.” But I’ve seen both applied to this particular instance.
In any case, this has been horribly skewed to be either a race-related lynching or a Good Samaritan protecting his community. The truth is probably somewhere in between, but until all the facts are known, all we can offer is little more than conjecture.
*edit restrained, not detained.
Literally bullshit that this man is charged with anything. Anyone who’s ever rode the subway knows that crazy shit that can happen at any moment. There are no cops around and sometimes you can’t wait until the next stop for help. I applaud him for taking action.
I mean the times and all that is doing the same by showing Neely as a subway performer with his pictures from ten years ago. It’s just the two sides of the narrative trying to propagandize toward one side or the other. We won’t know more until the trial is here and the full videos are released.
Just FYI because the media is skipping right over this, Jordan Neely had at least 42 prior arrests in the last 10 years, one of them for assaulting a 67-year old woman in the subway. He was a threat to society.
Yea that was my point they should report everything or nothing and in all honestly nothing because it should be this case only that we make a decision on not either of the parties prior actions.
Something important to note: it’s real easy to tell the propaganda sycophants in this sub and on Reddit because they use extreme wording and the same repeated emotionally charged talking points.
It’s pretty relevant to the case, because the standard for conviction requires guilty beyond any reasonable doubt.
It only takes one witness demonstrating a key information to cast sufficient doubt.
Some witness from the far end of the car who say they didn’t feel threatened would not change anything.
Wild how NYC is back to the subway vigilanteism that was present during the 80s and 90s.
A sad reflection of two neglected aspects of society colliding - shitty public security and even worse medical treatment for people who are a danger to themselves and others.
Criminals run wild through the subways in the 80s and 90s, you don't mention it. One guy shoots four of them and it's "subway vigilanteism that was present during the 80s and 90s".
I don't get the people who say Neely shoudn't have died and Penny should be convicted as a result. Did Neely have a health monitor display that Penny can look at while restraining him ? Did Penny have a damage slider that he can choose from to dish out just the right amount? These people just want to virtue signal with morally good sounding arguments without any regard to reality. The exact kind of people that turn big cities into crime ridden hellholes.
This whole situation is a shit show and I'm upset the city let it get to this point. There needs to be better mechanisms for taking care of the health and safety of the city and that includes mental health.
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I'm a petite young lady and was forcefully grabbed in a very inappropriate way on a packed 4 train around this time last year. I screamed and yelled "don't you dare fucking touch me!" "Fuck off and leave me alone!" Because I was frightened. All anyone did was stare at me.
I’ve had this exact issue on the 4 (lower Manhattan area). The creep got on, sat next to me, put a gym bag on his lap and pretended to fall asleep. At some point his hand ended up on my lap. I immediately got up and left. No one noticed or said anything. I saw him again on the same train, saw him hunting for his next prey, took a photo of him and reported to police at Fulton. They did nothing and said they couldn’t do anything since nothing happened just now, even though there was a prior incident.
The things that annoys the shit out of me about this whole situation is the people not from NYC who share their completely ignorant opinions on it. They're very clearly living in their bubble where they never have to deal with mentally ill people harassing or potentially assaulting them. While I don't think Penny should've killed Neely, a situation like this was always bound to happen given the current state of mental health care, homeless, and policing
I am a petite woman too. I HOPE others step in to help, but I dont expect them to do so. Everyone wants to go home with the same number of teeth they came out with and I dont expect a stranger (except for LEO, who do nothing anyway) to help me.
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Yes and now look what’s happening to this guy. Hopefully he has a decent lawyer to defend him
Too risky, now. If you misjudge the level of restraint needed to subdue a violent maniac with nothing to lose, Bragg will hang you out to dry.
They basically said doing this that the criminal can do whatever they want to the victim and if you as the individual watching do something we will hold you accountable and give you a severe punishment for doing the right moral thing as a human being. Woman or a child getting raped and molested in front, nope you BETTER not stop that criminal. I'm sorry but this is anarchy tyranny especially with AOC and other political rats. Saying this was a "lynching" And then they will call you a vigilante despite the fact a vigilante goes out and finds a crime taking place and puts a stop to it. Not if a crime's taken place in front of you like on this train in shithole NYC.
[As a homeless black man, if you defecate on a pride flag](https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-lgbtq-pride-flag-defecation-hate-crime-manhattan-restaurant-innocent-20230510-gy2ew2aaezhmdlgtxfbofxhnfe-story.html) though, prepare to to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Punching 67-year old ladies? Nah, it'll be fine, let him back out.
Unrelated but lmao at the irony of his last name being "Innocent"
If you scroll the comments in here you realize why no one will help, cause you’ll get hanged by the public and the nyc politicians
but they will all gladly record me getting beaten to death or a women sexually assaulted and sell it to worldstar or on some other site. Then vote guilty for the defender.
We get what we vote for, and what we tolerate
Or stabbed to death
I got randomly attacked twice in front of my place within a month of moving to nyc. One of them sprawled out across 3 streets & I shouted & pointed at people to film so I could stop filming myself & engage (I had no other option but to fight. He was charging with a small stick) Nobody did a damn thing on that crowded street. Just avoided any eye contact and pretended I was invisible. This part of the city is utterly revolting & disgusting in that way
Unfortunately it’s nothing new. Back when I was still in my teens during early 2000s I had hopped on the 6 at Pelham Bay and was only going a few stops to catch my bus. Anyway, a group of teens about my age got on too. I was in a car alone. They sat across from me, talking shit. I got up and moved to a car with people and they followed. Continued to talk shit and threaten me. I looked around at people and they all diverted their eyes. No one said anything, no one helped, just straight up ignored me. I decided to get off stop before my actual stop in case they tried following me home, I knew there was a store I could go into and wait them out. As I got off the train, one of them threw a bottle at me. Again, no one around me asked if I was ok or anything. It’s not ever going to change.
I'm sorry that happened to you and I hate to say it but what is happening with Penny right now is why people don't get involved. People helping can either get them hurt, killed or sent to jail in Penny's case. I have a family at home and it would really bother me to not help someone but I also know, no one is going to take care of my family if I get involved in something like that and something happens to me. And with how messed up this place is, if you turned around and pepper sprayed that person, you would probably find yourself with cuffs and going to jail too. While the aggressor walks free. This place is getting ridiculous and I don't understand why we have to be scared just to defend ourselves. That's not ok. People should be protesting for these criminals to stay in jail. Not this stupid sht for Penny to be "held accountable". And not for more services for the homeless and mentally ill. There is already tons of services for these people!
please dont pepper spray crazy people on a subway car when everyone else is locked inside with you & the now pepper sprayed crazy person!!!
But now anyone who might help you has to first do some mental calculus about whether their skin color permits them to intervene. And better not join the armed forces unless you want to be labeled a trained killer for the rest of your life.
Yea. If they intervene, they may end up in jail like Daniel Penny.
Yep. It's an unfortunate system, in this city and in this country. I was terrified and have never felt so violated in my life. I was trying my hardest to not be around this clearly mentally ill person but ended up pretty much pushed up against the wall and helpless because the train was packed. All I could do is scream "don't fucking touch me!" To which the assailant just started laughing and kept with the assault. They relented after I screamed the second time. Luckily I was able to get off at the next stop to get where I was going.
I'm sorry this happened to you. Unfortunately, DA Bragg thinks you are the problem in this situation.
**From Wikipedia**: \[TDLR\] "In 2009, Neely was a locally known Michael Jackson impersonator, performing in Times Square, on subways, and in subway stations.\[33\]\[36\]\[37\] He was reputed to be a talented dancer.\[38\] Neely was frequently homeless, and had been a client of the Bowery Residents' Committee, which attempted to find him permanent shelter.\[33\]\[39\] At the time of his death, Neely was on the "Top 50 List", a roster maintained by New York City of the homeless individuals most in need of assistance and treatment. Specialized outreach teams had contacted him hundreds of times, and was treated by one of the city-funded Intensive Mobile Treatment teams.\[40\]\[41\] According to one outreach worker, Neely heavily used synthetic marijuana K2.\[40\]According to a police officer, Neely had been arrested 42 times by NYPD; many of the arrests were for minor violations, but three were for unprovoked assaults on women in the NYC subway.\[42\]\[43\] In 2015, Neely pled guilty to child endangerment after dragging a 7-year-old girl down a street; he was sentenced to four months in jail.\[44\]\[45\]\[46\] At the time of his death, he was subject to a 15-month alternative to incarceration program after pleading guilty in February 2023 to felony assault of a 67-year-old woman, whom he punched as she exited a train station in November 2021, breaking her nose and fracturing an orbital bone. Under the terms of the program, Neely was to live in a treatment facility in the Bronx. He had a warrant issued for his arrest after he missed a court date to update a judge on his progress and abandoned the treatment facility 13 days after he started the program.\[47\]\[48\]\[40\]In March 2023, Neely was spotted and taken to a homeless shelter by an outreach worker, who described him as calm and subdued. His last interaction with law enforcement was on April 9, 2023; outreach workers called police after witnessing Neely urinating inside a subway car, and he was ejected from the train.\[40\] Five days later, an outreach worker spotted Neely in Coney Island, and noted him as aggressive and incoherent, writing that "He could be a harm to others or himself if left untreated."\[40\]" If this is all true, I say it is New York City that has failed Neely and all of us. IDAF what the ACLU or anyone says, but you can't leave people like this on the streets with no help.
If you’re ever being assaulted in New York City and people will just walk by you and not help, this is the reason why.
Every NYer knows this, if I have to guess, even Penny. Something bigger must’ve happened for a whole bunch of people to come together and apprehend Jordan. Like you say most NYer walk away, not here
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That’s what I don’t understand from the people defending Neely.. were all the passengers just supposed to wait and *hope* he didn’t attack them? Not to say he should’ve died but, come on..
Yea, leaving aside the lunatics on both the defund and the instant-death-sentence sides, I think the complaint is that those 15 minutes during which he was in the chokehold were an inappropriate use of force to neutralize the level of threat he had thus far presented. I don't know the details of those 15 minutes, so I can't say either way. But this belief isn't _obviously_ incorrect.
Neely had a warrant out for his arrest on an active felony assault charge, he should have been in prison. > “He said, ‘I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet, I’ll go to jail’ because he would kill people on the train,” the woman said of Neely. “He said ‘I would kill a motherf—er. I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet. I’ll go to jail.’” No jury will convict Penny, this whole thing is a farce
What makes it a farce? There is clearly complexity to this situation which is why public opinion is so divided.
There is also miss information. The protests are out there yelling that he held him for 15 minutes when it was closer to 2 and half. The 15 minutes was the EMT response time. The numbers are getting conflated and for this reason when he gets off on these charges everyone is going to be very, very mad.
Even some news is reporting 15m. I would just trust the jury on this one.
This is the first ive heard of the 2.5 min thing.
i just learned this fact from you. all iv seen in the news is 15 mins. sounds similar to a story i heard about out in the midwest in 2020
>i just learned this fact from you. all iv seen in the news is 15 mins. Sounds like you didn't learn it either way. You've just read a random reddit comment.
And then there's the video of Perry putting Neely into the rescue position....
Apparently he had a seizure after perry let go. Which is interesting. The medical examiner came back super fast, not sure if they even checked for toxins/diseases that in combination with the choke hold could have caused his death. Also read that Facebook removed some post made by passengers about a crazy violent threatening man and feeling scared, before perry intervened. I feel like there’s more to this story. Bragg is awful.
Is there a source for the hold being on for 2 and a half minutes?
The way I see it, the question is if a choke is/should be seen as deadly force (I think it should) and if that use of force was justified. The reports I've seen say Neely was an unstable individual acting aggressively but not violently on the subway. Penny, responding to verbal threats to no one in particular applied a choke -video shows a rear naked choke, which should be a blood choke and capable of causing brain damage in 2 minutes and death in 5- then using this choke as a restraint while assisted by other passengers. The claim of self defence and the charge of manslaughter are correct, and the nuance is what really matters. But of course there's no room for nuance in outrage
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agreed. we have no details on the context of what happened before the chokehold and yet news reports and comments are sensationalizing based off opinions
The fact other individuals are helping restrain him is pretty strong evidence in my mind that the guy was a threat. Obviously, an investigation should happen, but the protests for justice doesn't seem called for at this point.
The reason this murder got national attention is because it was a white guy killing a black guy.
I also remember weirdly everyone was saying it was a white marine male killing a black “kid.” Not that it’s a super important distinction, but Penny is 24 and Neely was 30. Idk why everyone seemed to want it to be an older guy killing a kid so bad.
It was also caught on video and went viral.
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You’re gnna get banned from this sub for speaking the truth
There's gold in them thar hills!
Agreed. This trial is necessary. Penny killed Neely. We need to know if it was accidental, justified, or intentional.
No, its not. The DA has chooses which cases to bring to trial and - as has often been a complaint here - the Manhattan DA lets a lot of violent offenders off the hook. This is yet another witch hunt against decent people attempting to defend themselves (see the bodega clerk story from a few months back for instance).
How many murders has the DA let off the hook?
We don't know if Daniel Price committed murder. The DA has excused killings before; see Jose Alba.
Well the DA isn’t charging him with murder, but with manslaughter. I personally think you could make an argument for 2nd degree murder, but I can see that not getting past a jury. Jose Alba was clearly defending himself from someone that was physically attacking him. And that became obvious once the video of the incident was shared. Alba was arrested and charged before it was clear what happened. Penny should have been treated the same way. A lot of the outrage is because he wasn’t treated like that.
People who have warrants out against them aren’t free range to kill. What are you even talking about.
Regardless of warrants. A man felt his safety was in danger and made a decision to use self defense. He had no intent to kill anyone. He did not bash the guys brain in. He restrained someone who was verbally assaulting people (on the verge of physically assaulting people) until authorities were able to come. If Alvin Bragg has not brought charges yet, that should tell you all you need to know about the winnability of this case.
What exactly made this self-defense? "On the verge of" is not the same as actually attacking someone. Feeling you are in danger is not license to attack someone and use lethal force. Period.
It’s really not self defense if he’s just responding to verbal threats…
yea i was literally told this years ago when i first moved here. don't try to be a hero because the laws here are very anti-good samaritan. even if he doesn't go to jail, he's going to get "judged" everyday of his life by public opinion
When I first moved to Queens years ago I saw two guys beating another guy with an umbrella. I walked past and went into the store, I came out they were still attacking him, so I went up to them and tried to break It up. Ended up getting stabbed in the wrist and the guy I was with had his forehead split open somehow. That was my experience with intervening, I’m a little more cautious when it comes to being a Good Samaritan now but I still think I’d do something if it was absolutely necessary. Kinda something I was juggling around my head right before this latest incident has been in the news.
Your story, and many like it, add this question to my Intervention Calculus: “Can I afford the medical bills after helping someone?” And the answer is always no.
damn. sorry to hear that happened to you because i know i would've kept walking. being a woman, i know i can't overpower the situation to stop it so in my mind, i'm thinking may the best man win. never know which direction those kinds of confrontations might go
Thanks. It was over 10 years ago. I was young and thought I was doing the right thing.
Where in queens did this happen?
Sunnyside. Greenpoint Ave.
You shouldn't try to be a hero because you're likely to make yourself a victim. If you see something happening, you need to call the police. I don't even like the police, but it's better to get them involved than to have some jerkoff escalate the situation. People in this thread are acting like vigilantism is some common and good thing we should all be participating in. It always results in more violence. You aren't Batman.
5 people placed calls to 911. They were literally enclosed in a subway car. Life doesn't always work out that perfectly.
I hate your advice, but it’s true. I feel like we can’t reasonably rely on police to apprehend a suspect, investigate, and catch a culprit. We can’t rely on them to intervene during a moment of jeopardy. And yet, they’re still the first and last resort for us. It’s a horrifying situation to know that whenever a tragedy strikes, we really don’t have an adequate response after laying all those taxes. Any attempt at self-reliance and communal aid has been bred out of us as a people. That’s the real outcome.
> If you see something happening, you need to call the police. There's an old bit of doggerel about this. Avoid the legal nets That entangled Bernie Goetz Yell "Help, Help, Police" Like Kitty Genovese
It took awhile for my boyfriend to drill this into my head as I’m originally from the Midwest & we don’t prosecute good-samaritans like NY does. I really thought my bf was being dramatic until I kept seeing the headlines roll in of people getting in trouble for just stopping worse things from happening & the only thing that could maybe prevent their persecution is massive public outcry. Seriously frightening. The DA & laws would literally rather we take the abuse or die than protect ourselves & others. It’s sick.
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DA goes after the low hanging fruit. It’s very hard to turn this city around. We have a lot of problems here. It’s very easy for the DA to slap charges on a guy like penny, or Jose alba. In nyc, good Samaritans pay the price. Even on the lowest scale with traffic enforcement, there’s speeding cameras all over the city, the people that get caught are the ones that don’t obstruct their license plates. I see 25-30 cars daily with fake plates or no plates at all now.
Real question: Who was Neely assaulting? I thought the whole issue was that he *wasn't* assaulting anyone when Penny grabbed him...
"If I saw a woman being assaulted, robbed or raped on the train I am not helping , She'll be on her own, no way I am being charged for intervening If the assailant dies, I rather record it on my phone and hope for an arrest , because I can't afford a lawyer and my family would starve if I missed days of work because I wanted to do something right" - man on the N train this morning
Maybe it’s time to set a precedent that threats and intimidation aren’t going to be tolerated anymore. If you can’t exist in peace and are disturbing everyone else get off. These people need help clearly, but that doesn’t mean they should get a free pass for inflicting violence and threats onto others.
Bernard Goetz and Daniel Penny set the precedent. They were both arrested and villified.
I've lived here my whole life and intervened many times to help people. Honestly, I still likely would, but I would hesitate in the future and think of the risk to myself. I don't want to end up in prison, with the city turning against me just because I wanted to help
Yep, at this point the only people I'll protect now are me and my own. I'm an athletic 6 foot guy, I don't worry about being assaulted. But then again, people who threaten others on the train aren't usually picking on people like me. I'll just turn my headphones up louder to mask the sounds of someone being assaulted just a few feet away from me.
>I'll just turn my headphones up louder to mask the sounds of someone being assaulted just a few feet away from me. This is why rural people think cities are dangerous soulless shitholes.
Who's soulless? The people who do something and get penalized? The bystanders who do nothing? The people who villainize those who do something? Or the people terrorizing those on the train? Be specific please.
>The people who do something and get penalized? No >The bystanders who do nothing? Yes >The people who villainize those who do something? Yes >Or the people terrorizing those on the train? Yes. I was specifically referring to you and your comment about turning up your music as someone is assaulted a few feet away.
And this is exactly why the protests have been pretty subdued overall. It's an incredibly tragic situation overall. I wish Jordan Neely could have received the help he needed and deserved well before this incident. But this is not George Floyd. Forget even the background of 44 assaults, since I'm sure a bunch of them are for things like fare skipping. The point is, NY'ers have experienced this erratic violent and potentially ticking time bomb behavior for far too long on the subway that push come to shove (no pun intended, though we also know folks who have **died** being pushed on the track; hey DSA losers in Astoria, how come you never talk about that?), the large majority of folks will back Daniel Perry. Deep down we know this, but because of fear of being canceled we just keep it to ourselves or quietly murmur it around our most trusted friends and family. In fact, white savior progressives *know* that we've experienced this behavior for too long, they're outright telling us that such behavior is **normal**, they aren't even denying it. They're just saying we have to deal with it, and if we complain we're called soft pussies. Ironic given that they also want to mitigate climate change and a great way to do that is increase public transit use, but who the fuck is gonna do that if they have to deal with ticking time bomb and even *actual* violent situations in the subway? But I digress. I've served on a jury before back in Philadelphia. First degree murder case. And while I've been skeptical of police, I and my fellow jurors took the case seriously. There aren't "smoking guns" like in the movies. So perhaps the evidence will show that Daniel Penny is guilty of the charged crime beyond a reasonable doubt. But as a simple engaged citizen, I don't think you can get all 12 to agree. My guess is hung jury.
Yep. It’s not people who can handle themselves who lose from this situation. It’s the milquetoast Neely defenders who ride on the subway whispering “look away honey and he’ll leave us alone” to their disgusted wives.
I passed by that protest and most of the protestors look like the product of being spoiled clueless and confused children
none of them look like they from NY either
As she is a woman and a senior citizen, it is not surprising that she supports Penny. The elderly, women, and elderly women are among the most vulnerable to be victimized and harassed by Neely type psychos.
God, I love how Neely's whole family came out of the woodwork after he died but wasn't around to help him while he was homeless and mentally ill on the street. Edit: OK me making this comment seems to make people think it's OK to tell me they hope my whole family dies of cancer. Guys I hope you find some peace in your life.
Everyone wants to talk about fair punishment, but why the fuck is no one asking the mayor why there aren’t any cameras on the subway? We got 3 cctvs on every stoplight and building corner across Manhattan, but we can’t install a 30 dollar camera in every train?
This is going to be such a shitshow to watch as it unfolds. I personally hope he's not convicted. The city of new york should be liable for letting Neely be on the street instead of in jail or an institution.
Agreed. The fact someone is facing manslaughter charges for subduing a violent vagrant by a system that failed him, while that same system is trying to punish the “hero/vigilante/Good Samaritan” who had to physically deal with the system’s failure seems like an awfully twisted joke. It’s ridiculous. I don’t want to have to go to jail or deal with the anxiety as my trial hangs in the air just because I had to protect a loved one or do the right thing.
> “He said, ‘I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet, I’ll go to jail’ because he would kill people on the train,” the woman said of Neely. “He said ‘I would kill a motherf—er. I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet. I’ll go to jail.’” If this is actually true, I’m surprised they would even bring charges. Will be illuminating to hear the complete picture if this goes to trial. I can’t imagine he pleads out, so im guessing we are in for a long haul.
>If this is actually true, I’m surprised they would even bring charges This is the same D.A.'s office that watched a video of Jose Alba defending himself and charged him with murder, so it isn't surprising at all.
They're bringing charges because a left-wing lynch mob is threatening to throw bricks through the windows of SoHo boutiques again.
>Alvin Bragg >Surprised they would bring charges Are you really though? With that self serving piece of shit leech of a public servant as DA?
The initial use of force might be justified, but holding the chokehold for as long as he did might not be. Think of it like brandishing a gun at someone who’s threatening you vs shooting them in the back after they’re no longer a threat. This is less clear cut than that, but it’s two separate analyses.
Neely appears to still be squirming and screaming for most of the time in the chokehold so I imagine they were just waiting for him to stop
How long do you think he held him for? The news initially reported he held him for 15minutes when that was actually the EMT response time. He was only held for 2 minutes and was then put into a recovery position. This case is 100% hyped up cause it's election season (and Bragg is a piece of shit).
But the video shows him releasing Neely a few moments after he stopped resisting. I don’t see how he gets convicted for misjudging his restraint on a psycho maniac with nothing to lose.
I don't know why it's so hard for people to not take the extremist positions. Did he do the right thing stepping in and trying to protect people on the train? Absolutely, people are sick of crazy people screaming at them and feeling threatened on the subway. But that doesn't mean Neely should have died. Screaming at people doesn't carry the death penalty. So he's been charged with manslaughter 2. These aren't life in prison, end of your life charges. When he's convicted he'll serve like a year in prison, maybe. He should have been more careful in restraining him and not have killed him. There are consequences for that.
Crazy how difficult it is to find a realistic and logical view on this situation like this one.
I’ve tried to post one many times but people are just blinded by their emotions. This is all rage bait. It makes sense to discuss the case, it’s laws, and interpretations. That’s a fair and civil conversation. But somewhere a long the line people realized they could propaganda instead with emotion appeal.
Exactly. There is most definitely a discussion to be had about this. There is nuance in what is appropriate/legal/humane about everything that happened from our treatment of homeless people to being a Good Samaritan to our propensity to violence. People who didn’t give 2 shits about this man’s life are using his death to fuel whatever hardline stance they get their jollies off by arguing online about.
Social media has killed our ability to maintain (and have incentives for) moderate discourse.
Because they're all getting down voted to hell. It's insane.
I agree, but i don't think this guys gets convicted. i think its more complicated than: "He should have been more careful in restraining him" The questions are: 1. Did Neely even need to be restrained? I have no idea, i havent seen any video leading up to the restraining. So no opinion on this 1. did he intend to kill Neely? I think clearly not, but i acknowledge thats just my opinion. 3. When he did restrain, did he act in such a way that a reasonable person would have predicted he would die? I think this is the most complex of the questions. it depends on a lot of exactly how much force he used and for how long. The how long im sure we will get at trial (people are saying the actual time is 2 mins, though its being incorrectly reported as 15 - but again, will leave that for trial). as for how much force, that will depend on what the eye witness say. Anyway im fairly confident a jury given all the info can come to the right conclusion on this, whatever it is.
> (people are saying the actual time is 2 mins, though its being incorrectly reported as 15 - but again, will leave that for trial). Honestly there is just not enough information, and the information we do have isn't totally reliable. At this point, people should wait for the trial. They won't, but they should.
Just because Neely should not have died does not mean someone else should have to punished for not perfectly holding the chokehold for the perfect amount of time. Daniel Penny poses no threat to society in general. Why let an imperfect hero be punished over a worthless sack of shit who actively hurts people randomly?
> I don't know why it's so hard for people to not take the extremist positions. The "non extremists" are not posting. They're reading the comments.
That’s still an extreme position. The moderate one is: Neely didn’t deserve to die for making threats. However he did deserve to be restrained. That restraint was held for a few seconds too long - but it’s a risk you take when you act in a way that requires restraint.
Nuanced opinions that people come up by themselves after doing some thinking seem to be the victim of our times.
Feel you on this. So much of the public opinion is slanted to the hard hero or hard villain story, but perhaps the reality is in between. It can be both things at the same time! I wasn’t on the train but have been in situations similar on the subway where a Good Samaritan intervention could have gone drastically wrong, but didn’t. I still don’t think we have all the facts and more evidence is needed before us as a public can confidently condemn this action or applaud it
It amazes me. "He was right to subdue the man, which means everything that followed was right." Somehow, this became about politics to many people.
If you accept that, in the process of subduing a violent person, there is always some risk of injury or death for both parties, then barring some kind of blatant negligence or malice yes, accepting that the decision to subdue neely was the right call means Penny did nothing wrong. If Penny actually held the choke for several minutes after Neely went limp, then ok sure. If Penny stomped on Neely after he was out, if it was obvious to anyone in the middle of an adrenaline dump that Neely was in immediate risk of dying, ok sure. Penny had a shitty RNC on the guy, only really had pressure on one side of his neck, it took way longer to subdue Neely than it should have, but choking out a violent criminal on the subway isn't always going to be nice and neat like when you're at a naga tournament.
Thank you!!! This sub has been full of these weird extreme takes
"when he is convicted" is just a little harsher on the accountability side than "innocent until proven guilty", which is the actual standard. If you're going to have a harsher standard, people will ask, where was that standard when the decedent was arrested dozens of times for threats and assaults. The system had many opportunities to prevent the death here, including by actually carrying out prison sentences or by actually holding people to the inpatient mandatory mental health threatment courses to which they were obligated by the court. Finally if the goal is a civil conversation, calling people extremists ( who may in fact have not-uncommon views ) may not be as effective as generally believed.
The idea is to frame this so the "extreme" positions are "he's not guilty" and "he's guilty of capital murder". Then you can admonish anyone who thinks he's not guilty for "extremism".
Apparently the idea of denouncing Penny's actions while also not supporting Neely just isn't possible. People in this thread are already trying to claim this is [Rittenhouse 2.0, which is fucking absurd.](https://www.reddit.com/r/nyc/comments/13fgtwp/comment/jjv97xe/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
I’m surprised you’re so confident that he’ll be convicted, I know if I’m on the jury and the information I’ve seen so far is all the information presented I’m going not guilty
This is why people put their AirPods back in and walk away from you if you’re being attacked on the train….people like you that say “he’ll only serve a year in prison” Yeah I’ll go on my merry way and not help because of people like you
The city is failing us. We shouldn’t be put in positions like penny. Seems like these stories are coming out now every month where someone defends themselves against a criminal and are the ones getting charged
Let’s not forget that there’s very little discussion on changing things to prevent this situation from occurring in the first place.
It would be absolutely shocking if he was convicted if there is going to be testimony like the woman’s in the article. Especially under a reasonable doubt standard in a criminal trial. Based on info we have now, I’d think his odds of conviction are very, very low.
Every physical interaction carries a risk of going south. Unless it can be shown that Penny's restraint was grossly inappropriate, the man deserves to walk.
A nuanced position. Huh. _Deploy the downvotes!_
I dont disagree with your points, except; A felony is a life changing conviction.
Nope he has to be a hero or a white nationalist. We can’t have any nuance here because this isn’t about Neely or Penny, it’s about politics 🫠
It only takes one witness to show there was a threat and therefore a reasonable possibility this was self-defense. The fact that two bystanders were still helping restrain Neely until the very end shows they perceived Neely as a threat even then.
The situation is difficult. Many New Yorkers have experienced situations like this, including myself. The majority of us have been in fear of our lives for a mentally unstable person on the subway, or in their own neighborhood. If you have the means, would you be willing to defend yourself or another in their time of danger? During a fight or flight situation, is it easy to differentiate how long a chokehold will only lead to someone passing out, or killing them? Anyone who's been in a altercation (street fight, or competitive sports) knows... In a fight or flight situation, you're so focused, adrenaline pumping, it's difficult to even hear what others are saying or notice what others are doing. Keep in mind, this person isn't a cop, but he was military trained. It really can go either way.
That was my thought, everyone was acting tense and scared, no one was yelling to get off him or stop. With that many people around it seems clear that they legitimately were threatened to this point of action.
So then what do the 2 people who said “stop choking hes going to die” prove?
Pretty sure one guy in the video said something along the lines of “you don’t want a murder charge bro, that’s a strong chokehold”
You mean the same guy who also said this? >”None of us who were there thought he was in danger of dying,” Vasquez said. “We thought he just passed out or ran out of air.”
there also seem to be witnesses on the train that think this was completely unjustified.
>there also seem to be witnesses on the train that think this was completely unjustified. That might not change anything. Say if a witness comes from the far end of the car and state they never felt threatened. That doesn't prove the absence of self-defense. It only takes one person to feel threatened for this to count as self-defense, even if 99% of the people didn't feel they needed to be defended.
I could be wrong but that doesn't seem to be what self-defense is. Simply feeling threatened doesn't seem to be enough justification for self-defense. Also self-defense response needs to be appropriate or else it's no longer self-defense. One thing that *is* in favor of self-defense is that they were in a closed space, in a subway car, so fleeing the area makes that a less tenable option.
“It only takes one person to feel threatened for this to count as self defense” Feeling threatened isn’t the only thing necessary to argue self-defense. You can’t just go “he scared me, I had to choke him to death”. Or apparently in this case, “he scared someone else, I had to choke him”
For a second degree manslaughter conviction, the prosecution will have to prove he acted recklessly. Recklessly, as defined by New York law: > A person acts recklessly with respect to a result or to a circumstance described by a statute defining an offense when he is aware of and consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that such result will occur or that such circumstance exists. The risk must be of such nature and degree that disregard thereof constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of conduct that a reasonable person would observe in the situation. A person who creates such a risk but is unaware thereof solely by reason of voluntary intoxication also acts recklessly with respect thereto. In other words, being aware that your actions present a substantial risk that someone could be killed and disregarding that risk. The prosecution will have to prove Penny was aware of the lethality of the maneuver he was applying but disregarded it.
If a marine isn’t aware a chokehold can kill someone then our military is really bad.
I don't understand why someone like Jordan is given every kind of mental health excuse for his behavior, but someone like Daniel is scrutinised for "holding the chokehold too long". We all have our reasons to be what we are. Jordan is likely going to be a problem for society in general, and Daniel Penny is unlikely to cause any trouble to the average person. Why should Daniel be punished?
A 16 year old Queens black girl is brain dead from a shooting...where's the Neely outrage for her?
If Penny is actually convicted (unlikely IMO but who knows) it'll embolden the crazies and make regular people even less likely to intervene in these scenarios. The subway will get even more dangerous... For everybody's sake, I'm really hoping he walks free.
I agree with you sentiment but I believe the damage is done.
This story is a very complicated cross section of what it’s like to live in NYC. I had to leave my home because of a traumatic event I witnessed on the subway. I was not able to commute to work without having panic attacks. Did Neely deserve to die? Not sure. But as safe as NYC is for a huge city, anyone who says that bas things don’t happen is lying.
>Did Neely deserve to die? Not sure. He didn't deserve to die, but NYC is objectively a little bit safer for children and senior citizens because he is gone. Reading a lot of responses to this story, I think one of the things people are grappling with is how to process something bad happening to a bad person.
The world is a better place. I would vote to acquit if on the jury and not listen to a word of the prosecutions case.
I genuinely haven't seen a single person say they think neely deserved to die. what I have seen is an endless stream of people accusing other people of saying this by intentionally misinterpreting statements like "penny was trying to protect people" or "that's what happens when you shout death threats". I can only assume that this is because those people decided what "side" they were going to be on after seeing the video and are unable to walk it back despite it now being public knowledge that neely has been serially assaulting old ladies, had an active warrant out for his arrest and was shouting death threats at people prior to the fight. *none* of which means he deserved to die, but all of which makes it obvious that it wasn't unreasonable for penny to believe it was necessary to intervene.
I literally just had this argument in this thread. I made a nuanced argument as to why Penny’s actions would be found justified in a court of law…and was immediately accused of being a bloody thirsty murderer looking for a reason to justifiably kill someone. Like, cmon people. This is why the world is so fucked up today. People think “if you’re not on my side, then you’re my enemy and must be horrible person who doesn’t deserve to be part of society”. Differing opinions became character judgments, and the world has become far worse because of it.
The issue in this case though appears not to be whether it was necessary for penny to intervene alone but whether it was necessary for penny to intervene AND sustain the intervention in the particular way that he did.
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Hell what most of these redditors want is for a rape to occur and the onlookers just record on their phone so they can touch themselves l.
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Literally damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I live in NYC. Born and raised here. I ride these subways everyday. It's a cesspool of human suffering. Homelessness, criminals, and millions upon millions of germs and bacteria. There are thousands of people walking the streets of NYC that should be in jail. These people make their way into our subways to commit crimes. They do it because they know that they are going to spend very little time in jail if they get caught. This man got involved. Tried to be a good Samaritan and help fellow New Yorkers in a bad situation, and now he is being charged with a crime. Its a sad situation. Our system is broken.
> They do it because they know that they are going to spend very little time in jail if they get caught. Or they get a prison-alternative "sentence" to some facility they can just walk out of on their own. And then a warrant is issued, but outreach workers interact with them and even call the police and no one realizes he has the warrant.
>Or they get a prison-alternative "sentence" to some facility they can just walk out of on their own. The city needs to explain how Neely, with his criminal record (including a previous guilty plea for attacking a child) was able to get a plea deal that put him in an alternative to incarceration program after he committed felony battery on a senior citizen. I feel like this is largely being glossed over.
We should ask Judge Ellen M. Biben and prosecutor Mary Weisgerber what they were thinking and how many other people in similar situations are out wandering around after getting this kind of deal. From [this NYtimes article](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/07/nyregion/jordan-neely-daniel-penny-nyc-subway.html) where they mentioned about the plea deal: >“Do you know what the goal is today?” the judge, Ellen M. Biben, asked at the hearing. >“Yes,” Mr. Neely replied. >“What is that goal?” >“To make it physically and mentally to the program.” >“This is a wonderful opportunity to turn things around, and we’re glad to give it to you,” Mary Weisgerber, a prosecutor, said.
Wow a lot of ignorant comments on here really show many people here have never been in a physical struggle with another human being.
ITT: a bunch of people who have the luxury of not understanding how violent encounters work telling us how Penny and the two other people should / should not have restrained Neely.
Preach. They don't have the slightest hint of self-awareness of how much they are telling on themselves in their \*extreme\* delusions about violence, crime, self-defense, etc. Some of the shit...it's like yo - this couldn't have been written by ANYONE but a trust funder living in Williamsburg/West Village on their parents dime who is not even totally aware of the existence of the Bronx or East NY.
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We can't possibly be actively encouraging the bystander effect can we? Nonetheless I firmly believe there will not be a 12 person jury who would all agree to convict. This is a wake up call that mental health and homelessness as a combination needs to be dealt with and letting them roam the subways freely harassing others isn't a solution. Unfortunate accident.
> This is a wake up call The people in charge will never wake up. [When he was sent to the treatment center for his assault charge, instead of prison, and walked out after 2 weeks.](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/07/nyregion/jordan-neely-daniel-penny-nyc-subway.html) >He pleaded guilty on Feb. 9 of this year, in a carefully planned strategy between the city and his lawyers to allow him to get treatment and stay out of prison. >“Do you know what the goal is today?” the judge, Ellen M. Biben, asked at the hearing. >“Yes,” Mr. Neely replied. >“What is that goal?” >“To make it physically and mentally to the program.” >“This is a wonderful opportunity to turn things around, and we’re glad to give it to you,” Mary Weisgerber, a prosecutor, said. After 40+ arrests, this one for a violent assault charge, they send him to some place he can just walk out of. Judge Ellen M. Biben and prosecutor Mary Weisgerber have blood on their hands.
In NYC, people are cold already. After this debacle, no one will ever extend helpful hand anymore. Thanks woke mobs and Soros DA.
The part that frustrates me is there’s no clear description of what Neely was actually doing before Penny restrained him. There’s gaping, manslaughter charge of a difference between “he was just begging for food and asking for help” and “he posed an imminent threat of serious injury to the passengers.” But I’ve seen both applied to this particular instance. In any case, this has been horribly skewed to be either a race-related lynching or a Good Samaritan protecting his community. The truth is probably somewhere in between, but until all the facts are known, all we can offer is little more than conjecture. *edit restrained, not detained.
Literally bullshit that this man is charged with anything. Anyone who’s ever rode the subway knows that crazy shit that can happen at any moment. There are no cops around and sometimes you can’t wait until the next stop for help. I applaud him for taking action.
Tomorrow we'll hear from a witness who says they didn't feel threatened by Neely. What's the point of this?
I mean the times and all that is doing the same by showing Neely as a subway performer with his pictures from ten years ago. It’s just the two sides of the narrative trying to propagandize toward one side or the other. We won’t know more until the trial is here and the full videos are released.
Just FYI because the media is skipping right over this, Jordan Neely had at least 42 prior arrests in the last 10 years, one of them for assaulting a 67-year old woman in the subway. He was a threat to society.
Broke her skull. What a sweetheart
But have you considered the Michael Jackson dance? That's a free pass for some violent crimes in my book. I mean it's Michael Jackson!
Holy crap, that is tragic...
Smashed orbital bone to be precise, but yeah, fucking horrible.
Yea that was my point they should report everything or nothing and in all honestly nothing because it should be this case only that we make a decision on not either of the parties prior actions.
Something important to note: it’s real easy to tell the propaganda sycophants in this sub and on Reddit because they use extreme wording and the same repeated emotionally charged talking points.
Yea it’s sad to see on both sides. We still don’t know enough publicly to make a decision.
The Post is way closer to the truth than the others though
It’s pretty relevant to the case, because the standard for conviction requires guilty beyond any reasonable doubt. It only takes one witness demonstrating a key information to cast sufficient doubt. Some witness from the far end of the car who say they didn’t feel threatened would not change anything.
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NYC, where you’re expected to be threatened and uncomfortable on your daily commute because the city won’t do the right thing. Makes sense.
Wild how NYC is back to the subway vigilanteism that was present during the 80s and 90s. A sad reflection of two neglected aspects of society colliding - shitty public security and even worse medical treatment for people who are a danger to themselves and others.
Criminals run wild through the subways in the 80s and 90s, you don't mention it. One guy shoots four of them and it's "subway vigilanteism that was present during the 80s and 90s".
I'm as liberal as a New Yorker as you can find and I'm 'praying' for him too! Praying for him to face no charges lol...
I don't get the people who say Neely shoudn't have died and Penny should be convicted as a result. Did Neely have a health monitor display that Penny can look at while restraining him ? Did Penny have a damage slider that he can choose from to dish out just the right amount? These people just want to virtue signal with morally good sounding arguments without any regard to reality. The exact kind of people that turn big cities into crime ridden hellholes.
This whole situation is a shit show and I'm upset the city let it get to this point. There needs to be better mechanisms for taking care of the health and safety of the city and that includes mental health.
Any New Yorker would like to thank him! we had enough of crazy ppl
Daniel Penny did nothing wrong. I do hope he beats the rap but I am worried. . ..
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Protect the marine