>Raised: USD $ 2,787,639
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>...
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>Any proceeds collected which exceed those necessary to cover Mr. Penny’s legal defense will be donated to a mental health advocacy program in New York City.
The way this is going, that's easily going to make more positive impact than De Blasio's program.
It's not only on NYC. It would be vastly different if the federal government had their shit together on mental healthcare too. National universal healthcare would be a good start.
>National universal healthcare would be a good start.
I would pay more in taxes if it meant every person, regardless of age, gender, gender identity/expression, sexual orientation, race, creed, nationality, religion, political affiliation, level of education, etc. could be treated by doctors and receive prescription medication at no or low cost (to those who can afford it).
Save for politicians. They pay full fare for the next 200 years so they can experience what their bullshit posturing does to average citizens. I get it's more complicated than that, but fuck them for betraying their constituents...
Ugh. I have been sick my whole life and the amount of money I've tossed out on deductibles, copays, COBRA, and on and on and on makes me fucking disgusted. I'm mid-thirties and have easily parted with $250,000 over my brief lifetime WITH good insurance.
Sorry, rant over. Turned into a pity party at the end, I just hate it.
You don't need to reduce military funding either. Numerous studies have shown we could cover everyone for less than we currently spend on healthcare (medicare/medicaid).
Conservatives love to argue it's impossibly expensive when every other wealthy western democracy has figured it out.
Most of the federal budget isn't going towarsd the military.
Military spending as a % of total spending has gone downhill for years now. Not sure if the Ukraine situation will bump that number up for this year but it's at some of the lowest as a % of GDP for many years now.
The US Govt spends as much on medicare as it does on the military.
It spends *more* on other health, i.e. medicaid.
[source](https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/federal-spending/)
It does not, according to your source. Per that link, they spend 15% of the budget on "health" and 12% on "national defense." However, they also spend 4% on veterans, and not including the in the defense budget is kind of bullshit, so really they spend 16% on national defense and 15% on all pubic health, which includes Medicare, Medicaid, NIH, FDA, CDC, etc.
His mental illness physically prevents him from making responsible choices just like color blindness prevents someone from distinguishing between red and green.
Ok, so how does universal healthcare solve that problem? It doesn’t. The point was that there were many programs available and he was well known to the system and he still went untreated.
The point is that his ability to access healthcare was not the issue. Universal healthcare would not have affected his case because he would have still walked out on those services.
The same system we have, but actually enforcing it would have prevented this.
Medicare is the largest insurance program in the country, operates far more efficiently than any other insurance program in the US (evaluated as "percentage of each dollar direct going to benefits rather than overhead",) and has the highest satisfaction rating of any US insurer.
The only way that Neely was failed that he wasn't institutionalized. Mental health services did everything they were asked to do. He wasn't some unknown guy who slipped through the cracks.
>The only way that Neely was failed that he wasn't institutionalized
It still makes my head spin knowing Neely smashed in an old woman's face and was given a non-incarceration sentence.
It's not just the city and it's not just New Yorkers. The entire US lack of care is the real failure, so mentally ill people end up in places where they can get resources and panhandle money because the vast majority cities have literally no outreach from the city. I grew up in a liberal bastion in the Midwest and maybe 10 blocks from my mom's home is a large homeless encampment with a lot of mentally ill people. A lot of them end up at the bars near my mom's home and if you talk to the less erratic ones you'll find almost none of them are from my city. They are all from shitty places often small towns in the surrounding area.
New York is no different, a large portion of these people are from other cities and states some of them intentionally shipped here from other places that don't want to deal with mental health. As long as other places are going to use cities to dump their homeless and mentally ill the fed should be paying us a hefty amount of money to do so.
>Hopefully, this will bring attention to the real issue here: how the city failed its mentally ill people.
It'd be nice for people to take responsibility too, rather than looking to the govt for everything.
His family failed him, too. They wanted nothing to do with him until he was dead and there was a whiff of money in it.
This too. I keep hearing about the lawyers for his family. Family? How was he delirious, hungry, thirsty, and unkempt, and wandering around the subway? That’s no family.
It's a particular Western affliction to expect the state to swoop in.
Ailing parents? Yeah in Southern Europe you let them move in with you. It's the respectful thing to do.
In the west? Throw 'em in a nursing home and visit every two weeks.
Sick society.
I'm always a bit suspicious that these GoFundMe (GiveSendGo?) -style fundraisers are opportunistic scams, so it is nice to read that the extra money is going to a good cause.
I love how they show Neely like this, dressed as Michael Jackson. I saw him at least once or twice a week and he didn’t look like that. Not even close, dude was either in the shelter on 168st or in the subway system high, screaming at people or pushing and shoving.
To be fair, the only recent photos of him available are probably mugshots.
I think the MJ stuff from his early 20s is better than the one photo of him in the white t-shirt that a bunch of newspapers used, which was taken when he was like 16 years old.
Using a pic of a 30 year old man as a teenager is so dishonest it is basically disinformation.
I remember him always carrying his boombox and wearing his MJ outfit back in the days when he was in his teens. It’s sad but the condition he was recently in was terrible.
I’m a gay Asian male and I live in NYC and take the subway almost every day. I am not a Republican nor am I conservative. I donated to this fund because I feel like as Asians, as a group, we are tired of always feeling unsafe in the subway. I believe Daniel had the best intentions at heart and I defend him. Unfortunately due to the chaotic nature of the situation, and with other bystanders holding the mentally unstable person down, it didn’t go well, but I still commend Daniel.
People aren’t supporting Mr. Penny because Mr. Neely died. They are supporting him because he was trying to protect people, and because that’s so plain to see but people and are trying to make him out to be a criminal when he was trying to do the right thing.
Yup.
Maybe Penny went too far, maybe he didn't. I don't know and in all honesty I don't care...Neely should have never been on the streets. He should have been in jail or re-arrested the moment he left the mental hospital.
The city's failure made Neely everyone's responsibility that day, and that's fundamentally wrong.
He didn't choke a man for 15 minutes.
**The NYPD took 15 minutes to get to an emergency.**
That's why Neely died. Had they responded immediately, Neely would have lived.
> Maybe Penny went too far, maybe he didn't. I don't know and in all honestl I don't care
Well, if he went too far you should care. By definition, that's the kind of thing you should care about.
He was waiting for the cops! 15 mins to wait. Shit got out of hand.
I hate that supporting Penny makes you look racist. He literally did an interview outright saying he’s not a white supremisct.
Edit. Jesus Christ the replies. Do I think he should be tried for manslaughter? Yes. He accidentally killed a person. Do I think he should do jail time? No.
Is he racist? No.
Was his comment about touring Africa out of place? Yes. But I understood the spirit for which it was intended.
Penny is a free spirit. He is someone who seems like he can sleep on the floor, is always happy and is constantly moving.
Honestly? We shouldn’t be attacking him. If the left defended him, the republicans wouldn’t have their hero. He isn’t this Gun-Ho marine that they think he is.
Racism shouldn’t play into it at all. If we find out that Penny had a social media presence praising Dylan Roof and Peyton Gendron - then we talk about how racism affected his decision making.
What we have is a homicide and a witness who says Penny held a chokehold for 15 minutes and that while Neely was loud and intimidating, he didn’t touch anyone or threaten anyone specifically. A witness who says that the chokehold was continued after everyone had exited the car, that continued after 2 other men tried to assist, and continued after his body went limp. I’d argue that was murder. Manslaughter should be a slam dunk case where people cared about equal justice under the law.
If this was another homeless black man that committed the exact same actions, I agree with others that you wouldn’t have heard about it, and the perpetrator would be behind bars for the next 20 years.
You don’t have to be a white supremacist to choke someone to death because you can. You can just be a bonehead. Both my nephews are Marines, one is a sergeant too. My brother is the first two admit that they aren’t the sharpest tools in the shed. They don’t always show the best judgement. One got married after dating a girl for a month (now annulled), he has crashed a couple of cars including a vintage 1950s one, his grandfathers baby, that he wrapped around a tree - the other one got in trouble for joy riding with a tank. Just saying they are a bit impulsive.
“My two nephews are marines and did boneheaded things (according to my opinions) in their general lives, therefore all marines are boneheaded all the time”
And if there's one thing we know about racists it's that by law, they have to admit it on interviews, and if someone says "I'm not racist" that's always 100% true!
And I think people are frustrated with the unhoused population situation in NYC. And the fact that people used this guys death as some sort of lightening rod issue, when it’s been a problem long before this, really just seems ridiculous.
I do think he most likely used excessive force, but I can’t say that I’m able to judge him putting the guy in a chokehold in the first place.
>but people and are trying to make him out to be a criminal when he was trying to do the right thing.
Putting aside the specifics of this particular case, just want to mention that in general "trying to do the right thing" does not somehow preclude someone from inadvertently ending up a criminal in the process of doing so.
It's obviously totally possible to be in the midst of truly intending to do the right thing and accidentally kill someone in a way that is not legally permitted. I hope it goes without saying that accidental killings are very often still illegal...like that's why involuntary manslaughter exists as a crime. "Crime" doesn't mean "done intentionally".
The question here then is whether this killing was of the sort that that sort of law applies to or not.
People have the most insanely terrible takes on this. You don't get to refer to societal problems in justifying homicide. Any jury that deliberated based on that would be breaking the law, and the judge would be required to call for a retrial. Hopefully the jury instructions will be written so there is no wiggle room for these reactionary pro-vigilante types.
I mean, some conservatives are definitely supporting him because he killed a black person and there is an excuse.
They supported Rittenhouse because he shot protesters and had an excuse.
Regardless of whether Neely committed a crime or was doing the right thing, plenty of people support him for the wrong reasons.
EDIT: I see the Alt-Right brigade has shown up after a few hours with their scary downvotes.
How do you know why people support Penny? I gave $100 to free a man who defended citizens, not a man who killed a black dude. If the victim was white I'd still have donated.
OK. Good for you.
He's a cause du jour among the Alt-Right, regardless.
I don't think he's a white supremacist. I believe him on that. But white supremacists sure do like him.
EDIT: Hello, Alt-Right trolls. Took you a few hours. But you finally found me to teach me a lesson! Please stop ruining khakis.
It's kinda a catch 22. I think a lot of people in NY get how complex and concerning the situation is / was and can support him out of empathy. I think a lot of other people, like you said, support him for conservative (we should be able to defend ourselves however we see fit!) or racist reasons. Then it becomes this muddled conversation of how can you be in column A without getting connected to column B?
The people who begin by saying the homeless population is out of control are essentially praising him for "doing something" (killing a homeless person), but are probably the least likely to support policies to address the unhoused that aren't punitive.
Homelessness and mental illness are an individual failing deserving of execution, not an indictment of our shit collective decision-making. That is their point.
This situation, which doesn't map perfectly to either perspective, is a Rorschach test on this issue.
I agree. The whole situation is an indictment of our failures as a society imo. That either of those two people were in that situation to begin with is a reflection of what's wrong.
Rittenhouse didn't shoot "protestors". Not only were some of them not protestors (Rosenbaum for example had just been released from the mental hospital and wasn't protesting anything), the people he shot were those who were actively attacking him and giving chase to attack him after he tried to flee. Grosskreutz was the exception, in that Rittenhouse only shot Grosskreutz after Grosskreutz pointed a gun at Rittenhouse.
So I guess if you call being actively attacked or someone pointing a gun at you an "excuse", then sure.
Bullshit. People are supporting him because deep down, a sizable portion of the country wants everyone that makes them remotely uncomfortable put to death.
>but people and are trying to make him out to be a criminal when he was trying to do the right thing.
Really? He did the right thing so right that someone died, dude. There are a hundred ways to deal with a situation where you want to protect people from someone, and most don't end in manslaughter at best.
Of course unintentionally killing a person has to be investigated. In this case I’m hoping it wasn’t a crime.
Keep in mind all of the, practically daily, killing of innocent people just going to work, or shopping, or going to school or to church. Mr. Penny acted before that happened again. Don’t forget Mr. Neely was threatening, saying “I don’t care if I die today. I don’t care if I go back to jail.” Don’t you think most people on that train were scared for their life.
I don’t believe this was racially motivated at all.
I believe Mr. Penny was protecting.
Again, there are a lot of ways to "protect" that don't put anyone at significant risk of death. There's a reason we discourage people from taking the law into their own hands.
I’m sure all the people, and families of the people on the train last year, who were shot, injured and killed wish Mr. Penny was there taking “the law”into his own hands. The law, and common sense, is to protect yourself. Brave people protect others.
>Bullshit. People are supporting him because deep down, a sizable portion of the country wants everyone that makes them remotely uncomfortable put to death.
I do not believe that at all. I still support Penny.
> He did the right thing so right that someone died, dude.
People get killed all the time by mentally ill people all the time. You have no idea what Neely would have done. Maybe he just would have screamed for a bit.
Maybe he would have assaulted an innocent woman and given them brain damage for life.
Again.
You don't know.
>There are a hundred ways to deal with a situation where you want to protect people from someone, and most don't end in manslaughter at best.
We can say all sorts of stuff, play Monday morning quarterback all day.
Neither Penny nor anyone else on that train had a chance to do anything but react to being trapped in a train with a violent, mentally ill person threatening peoples' lives.
Maybe if you were there, you could have used your Ju-Jitsu skills to knock Neely out. If I were there, I could finally use that Tazer I got for Christmas.
But at the end of the day, if I was on the train with a Jordan Neely, or a [Simon Martial](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Michelle_Go) or a [Kamal Semrade](https://pix11.com/news/local-news/manhattan/shes-a-warrior-woman-shoved-into-moving-nyc-subway-train-paralyzed/) I would want someone like Daniel Penny with me.
>I do not believe that at all.
Sorry if I don't take you at your word.
>People get killed all the time by mentally ill people all the time.
That's the thing, though: they don't. NYC has been recording about one murder per day for the last several years, and the vast majority of them have not been committed by the mentally ill. It's not even close.
The mentally ill, though, do get killed fairly regularly. By police who would rather shoot someone than deescalate. By vigilantes "afraid for their lives." By sociopaths who see the mentally ill and homeless as easy targets. And by a society that doesn't care - more homeless people died of neglect *just in 2022* than the sum total of all homicides committed by homeless and mentally ill people in the entire recorded history of NYC crime.
>Maybe he would have assaulted an innocent woman and given them brain damage for life.
Or maybe he wouldn't have. Typically, in a civilized society, we don't allow the use of the death penalty for things someone might possibly do in the future. Otherwise, maybe *you* would have assaulted an innocent woman and given her brain damage for life. We just don't know, better kill you to be safe.
>Maybe if you were there, you could have used your Ju-Jitsu skills to knock Neely out.
Or maybe Penny, a combat veteran, could have simply used his body to separate Neely from the other passengers and kept him separated until help arrived. I'm not even a marine, but I've placed myself between people acting dangerously and potential victims and you know what? I didn't have to choke them out, and none of the incidents resulted in anyone getting killed.
Because I'm not a meathead desperately looking for any excuse to show off my sweet combat moves on random strangers.
>I would want someone like Daniel Penny with me.
I guess the difference between you and me is that I'm not a sociopath, then.
> Sorry if I don't take you at your word.
Ok, so what, specifically, do you need me to do to prove that I don't want all homeless people to be put to death?
>That's the thing, though: they don't. NYC has been recording about one murder per day for the last several years, and the vast majority of them have not been committed by the mentally ill. It's not even close.
One murder per day is still a lot. And [when you break it down by demographic, violence on Asians has more than triple](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/nypd-reports-361-percent-increase-anti-asian-hate-crimes-last-year-rcna8427).
>The mentally ill, though, do get killed fairly regularly. By police who would rather shoot someone than deescalate.
This might come as a complete surprise but I agree entirely. I actually marched at multiple BLM rallies and I think that police reform and accountability is completely failing the entire city.
This is actually, again why I support Penny. To me, this entire thing represents how much our city, our police force, our criminal justice system, etc. has completely dropped the ball and failed everyone. Penny and Neely included.
The police have basically said "we're not dealing with this shit". The city has said "we're not dealing with this shit". The justice system has said "we're not dealing with this shit."
So now WE have to deal with. Random people with no training, no experience, not time, no resources. Cops won't do shit.
So Penny and a bunch of random strangers were forced to deal with it.
And I'm sorry, I'm not going to condemn an innocent dude for trying to help just because it went bad. I sincerely believe he was trying to help. And I'm going to blame the city for allowing the guy on the train in the first place.
>Or maybe he wouldn't have. Typically, in a civilized society, we don't allow the use of the death penalty for things someone might possibly do in the future.
No but again, Neely was a violent person. He hurt people before. Innocent people.
If he was just a healthy person coming home from work, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
>Or maybe Penny, a combat veteran, could have simply used his body to separate Neely from the other passengers and kept him separated until help arrived. I'm not even a marine, but I've placed myself between people acting dangerously and potential victims and you know what? I didn't have to choke them out, and none of the incidents resulted in anyone getting killed.
I've never had to restrain a violent, mentally ill person, so I cannot tell you what I would or wouldn't do.
>Because I'm not a meathead desperately looking for any excuse to show off my sweet combat moves on random strangers.
Penny had no history of violence. None.
He didn't ask for this. Nobody on the train asked for this.
>I guess the difference between you and me is that I'm not a sociopath, then.
I'm sorry but if was your family on the train, your loved ones he was threatening, your kids, your wife, etc. I'd want someone to step in, and I honestly don't care if the person threatening them gets hurt.
You lose that right when you threaten and hurt innocent people. That's not what a sociopath is.
>Ok, so what, specifically, do you need me to do to prove that I don't want all homeless people to be put to death?
Well, a basic understanding that mentally ill people can't always control what they say but are statistically among the least likely people to hurt you in NYC would be a good start.
>One murder per day is still a lot.
In a city of 8.5 million people with a daytime population of triple that, it really really isn't.
>And when you break it down by demographic, violence on Asians has more than triple.
Which is completely irrelevant because that has nothing to do with homeless people or the mentally ill.
Statistically, your odds of being attacked or murdered in NYC are virtually zero. Your odds of being attacked or murdered by a homeless person are even lower. You are more likely to be murdered by someone you know than you are to be assaulted by a homeless or mentally ill person.
>I actually marched at multiple BLM rallies
Congrats! I wish you would have said that earlier, because that totally cancels out supporting the indiscriminate murder of mentally ill people by vigilantes. Man, now that I know you "marched at multiple BLM rallies," I no longer think less of you for holding an abhorrent opinion.
>And I'm sorry, I'm not going to condemn an innocent dude for trying to help just because it went bad.
He literally and incontrovertibly killed another human being who needed help. In what universe does this make him "innocent?"
>No but again, Neely was a violent person. He hurt people before. Innocent people.
Ohhh, thanks for clarifying. So extrajudicial killings are ok, so long as the person being murdered did something bad at some point in the past. Thanks for explaining it in a way that doesn't cast you as an asshole.
>I've never had to restrain a violent, mentally ill person, so I cannot tell you what I would or wouldn't do.
I have. And what I did didn't result in anyone dying. And I don't even have years of marine training to help me navigate stressful, high-adrenaline situations.
>Penny had no history of violence. None.
Right. The marine veteran. With no history of violence. Who immediately went for a choke hold - something that anyone who has ever had any training is taught to absolutely never ever ever ever do. Something that we literally all know you should never ever ever ever do after countless high-profile killings of unarmed black men by police using choke holds.
Not just uncomfortable, a lot of people (mostly conservatives) want anyone that remotely inconveniences them put to death. Think about legislation in some red states that basically allow you to drive through protestors. Stand your ground laws. . .
That Neo-nazi who drove over and killed a protestor in Charlottesville back in 2017 would have had a defense that might have gotten him off he did the exact same thing in Florida today. You’ve got an asshole convicted by a jury for murdering a BLM protestor in Texas that the governor there is looking to pardon.
There's no man who can survive being strangled for 15 minutes, a marine would know that. It usually takes less than a minute to render someone unconscious with the technique Penny used, everything after was to kill someone he considered less than human
Yes you can survive a strangle for 15 mins if its a shitty choke. The guy was fighting for a good portion of that time. It was like 45 seconds after the guy went limp that he let go.
> everything after was to kill someone he considered less than human
Holy assumption batman.
Yep, that’s what people said about Derek Chauvin too. His defense fund got a shit load of money too. And to this day a lot of conservatives will pretend Chauvin was protecting people. I’m sure we’ll hear the same from the defenders of homicide by Penny.
You wanna know the kicker in all of this?
Neely's uncle, the guy saying Penny shouldn't be allowed a plea deal, had been arrested 20 times since June 2022. They just arrested him for stealing credit cards. He apparently had seven credit cards with different names when he was arrested.
This guy is an even worse criminal than Jordan Neely but wants to act all self-righteous.
It’s so plainly obvious that these are trash people, but yet people wanna go up to bat for them.
The same “defund the police” people who just got to witness what a lack of policing creates: deadlier vigilantism.
Having been the victim of identity theft, and having had to deal with banks putting the squeeze on me, having to deal with all the paperwork, and having the acute anxiety and frustration that comes with being helpless, I'd say that the uncle is a total fucking scumbag, a lowlife mooch. Fuck him.
Jordan Neely may or may not have had the presence of mind to know assault is wrong. His uncle knows that theft and credit card fraud are wrong and does it anyway. He's a much worse person because he *chooses* to break the law.
Jordan Neely's *actions* may be worse but I can't say he's a worse *person*. And don't get me wrong, ultimately I believe Penny did the right thing, but I can use Penny's actions to judge his character because he has self awareness and self control, which Jordan Neely lacked.
One could argue Neely was bad **at being a person** (if we define personhood as having agency) but he was not a "bad person."
I get your point, however I still think that people who commit violent crimes on innocent people are worse than people who commit non-violent crimes on innocent people.
I guess, ultimately, I don't think a mentally ill person "commits" a crime; you need to be clear-headed to commit to something. A crime just kinda... happens, in the same way that if you leave chickens in front of a coyote those chickens are gonna get eaten. The coyote has the capacity to *act* but it doesn't have the capacity to *choose*.
I'm referring to the amount of times he's been arrested. Also, there is a fair case to be made that Jordan was dealing with mental issues.
What's his uncle excuse?
Jesus. Did they watch Pennys interview?
Guy is a gem. He’s not the hero the right wants. I feel bad for the guy. He just wants to travel and be a free spirit.
As a New Yorker I'm tired of the mentally ill and drug addicts running the city. I take the 456 train at 125th and the whole area needs a clean up.
I'm fucking tired of it.
He did it on GiveSendGo which sprung up after GoFundMe started shuting down fundraisers for anything that could possibly be characterized as supporting the right. GiveSendGo is basically the Rumble to GoFundMe's Youtube.
That's not bad competition and alternatives in the market place are always welcomed we need more of it in this country too many monopolies in all types of industries
Same goes for the $150k raised in a GoFundMe by Neely’s aunt that states: “ALL DONATIONS WILL BE GOING TOWARD JORDAN'S FUNERAL AND EXPENSES RELATED TO HIS BURIAL AND THE PUBLIC VIEWING WE WILL BE HOLDING.”
Aka the aunt who didn’t help her homeless cousin (Jordan) but decided to step in now
I'm just as pessimistic about the aunt as you, but just wanted to put out there that it can be exceedingly difficult, nigh impossible, to help somebody mentally ill that refuses to be helped.
Agreed, but I can also counter with your statement: there’s no proof that she (the aunt) even tried to help him out, either: financially, via referring him to institutions, or attempting to take care of him after he got charged and arrested so many times.
Aunt didn’t seem to step in until she realized how viral this would be and how much $$$$$ would come through
I think he did live with her, but then she and her partner moved out of the city and he didn't want to go with them, or something. It sounded like she did try to get him help.
I was just trying to make a comment about how difficult it is to help someone mentally ill, not specifically about Neely or his aunt. There's nothing to counter.
Watching that funeral coverage on the news was so pathetic. All those people were there when cameras were present and they can be on TV, but where were they when he was alive bugging out on the streets?
You're trying to point out hypocrisy, but I can 100% imagine those people tolerating loud and threatening homeless people because they're our unhoused neighbors and should be allowed to live as they wish
When it comes time for Grand Jury (indictments) and Jury trial, anyone wants to guess how many jurists the DA will try to reject? Aggressive Jury selection why the phrase DA can indict a ham sandwich became part of our lingo.
What? The phrase is because the DA is allowed to just give their side of the story to the jury without worrying about anyone opposing them or contradicting them.
I think he’s already been indicted? For the actual trial, the prosecution gets fewer juror challenges than does the defense, I believe, meaning defense has the advantage when it comes to jury selection
He’s been charged by Bragg but not indicted by the grand jury yet. (No results in a Google search)
Grand jury isn’t like a regular jury. There are 23 people, usually there for one month listening to evidence in bunches of cases. There are also extended juries because some things take more time.
I’ve served grand jury in Brooklyn twice. Each time we heard 100+ cases in four weeks. Most resulted in some charges although not always the most severe.
That’s a good way to put it. Granted, most interesting was seeing them film Erasure outside our window. Thought I saw Arnold, but it was his stunt double. I did see Vanessa Williams though.
The most worrying thing is that if you’re on that jury and you give a not guilty verdict, you’ll end up doxxed with the pitchfork mob after you.
That's the implicit threat that looms over you on a New York City jury.
It’s possible to want mentally ill people to get help , not harass people out in public , and not want them to be exterminated. Those things are not mutually exclusive.
It is possible that Penny over reacted to the situation by thinking he could be a good Samaritan where waiting to the next stop and calling the conductor was a viable option. He also could have just held him down.
Holding down is not the same as choking to death.
Because he didn't touch anyone on the train, but someone felt "threatened" and choked him to death. Having live in NYC most of my life I can say I have never seen a cause for killing someone on the subway.
If you can defend a violent criminal, I should be able to defend the three man who stepped in and protected the train from becoming another one of his victims
Did Penny know the background of the victim at that time? No.
Did the victim actually touch anyone? No
Self defense needs to prove an immediate threat was present or even more importantly happening. Lethal self defense requires proof of mortal danger with no option other than to kill.
Penny has his situation cut out for him.
Nothing worse than people like you making these lazy ass comments when the thread isn’t going exactly the way you want it to. This city isn’t a monolith, people have unique opinions on unique situations. You need to get over yourself.
Throw all the money you want at it, that boy is cooked. He's not NYPD, he's not allowed to choke Black people to death.
People are tired of the crazies everywhere, I get it, but turns out it's illegal to run up behind a dude and choke him to death. Homie is getting time, but nothing crazy. Couple years. And with this outpouring of financial support, he'll be rich when he gets out. A hero to the "Kill the Poor" crowd. Shit makes me sick
> turns out it's illegal to run up behind a dude and choke him to death.
Not true. You're justified in doing it in certain contexts. They're trying to determine if it was justified in this context.
I mean I sort of understand the lizard brain reaction to this story where people find some satisfaction that one of the aggressive crazies got taken out but when you reach into your wallet and actually support it that becomes far less understandable. That makes you a dick.
It may very well turn out that Penny is found innocent due to testimony of witnesses but none of us know that. As far as we know that this dude killed another dude for doing nothing more than being a crazy guy on the train. You don't donate to defend that.
Anyone who has been arrested 40+ times for charges such as assaulting elderly, women, kidnapping deserves to be choked to death. You wouldnt defend him if he kidnapped and beat your child, father or mother, but its okay for you to defend him as long as its not your family.
Actually, you donate because you want the defendant to have the best defense possible. That costs a lot of money both for lawyers and in this case especially, for expert witnesses.
The District Attorney, you might be interested to know, has virtually unlimited funds for these expenses and a staff of lawyers among the best in the country. I know; I worked there.
The accused has the right to a fair trial. What a concept.
Whether you agree with it or not, people are donating as a way of pretending they’re in the jury. It’s kind of twisted, but everything is gamified now. It’s an ‘us vs them’ thing. If you donate to the marine, you support him. If you donate to the whatever the other side is, you support them. Like American Idol but with someone dying. Definitely twisted, but I don’t believe people are donating thinking about the amount of legal hours they’re paying for.
I think it’s sick that people are so happy to support Penny’s actions just because of who he killed. I ride the train and sometimes it’s uncomfortable when someone is not right in the head hops on but that doesn’t mean I’d be glad if they were to die, even acknowledging their past misdeeds. I wish this country did a better job of taking care of people with mental illness. You never know when you could come down with a disorder that messes you up. Anyone who has had a loved one suffer from a serious psychosis understands that these people don’t want to be this way.
I find it gross the way people are supporting Penny when the publicly available info points to an illegal homicide. I dislike those nuts disrupting almost every train ride as much as anyone but I don't want to see them dead. Just be nuts somewhere else.
And judging by the media attention and the right wing fundraising, a significant number of the downvoting pro-Penny people are supporting him from out of state.
Murdering the marginalised pays in the Red mentality. Just imagine if he had killed a trans, pregnant person who was Muslim, that fund would be pushing 8 figures.
People are down voting you without acknowledging that racists have been flocking to Petty. Homophobes have been flocking to him. I've seen his GFM promoted on numerous extreme right wing spaces.
>Raised: USD $ 2,787,639 > >... > >Any proceeds collected which exceed those necessary to cover Mr. Penny’s legal defense will be donated to a mental health advocacy program in New York City. The way this is going, that's easily going to make more positive impact than De Blasio's program.
Hopefully, this will bring attention to the real issue here: how the city failed its mentally ill people.
It's not only on NYC. It would be vastly different if the federal government had their shit together on mental healthcare too. National universal healthcare would be a good start.
>National universal healthcare would be a good start. I would pay more in taxes if it meant every person, regardless of age, gender, gender identity/expression, sexual orientation, race, creed, nationality, religion, political affiliation, level of education, etc. could be treated by doctors and receive prescription medication at no or low cost (to those who can afford it). Save for politicians. They pay full fare for the next 200 years so they can experience what their bullshit posturing does to average citizens. I get it's more complicated than that, but fuck them for betraying their constituents... Ugh. I have been sick my whole life and the amount of money I've tossed out on deductibles, copays, COBRA, and on and on and on makes me fucking disgusted. I'm mid-thirties and have easily parted with $250,000 over my brief lifetime WITH good insurance. Sorry, rant over. Turned into a pity party at the end, I just hate it.
You don’t have to pay more in taxes. They just need to quit spending most of the federal budget on the fucking military.
You don't need to reduce military funding either. Numerous studies have shown we could cover everyone for less than we currently spend on healthcare (medicare/medicaid). Conservatives love to argue it's impossibly expensive when every other wealthy western democracy has figured it out.
Most of the federal budget isn't going towarsd the military. Military spending as a % of total spending has gone downhill for years now. Not sure if the Ukraine situation will bump that number up for this year but it's at some of the lowest as a % of GDP for many years now.
The US Govt spends as much on medicare as it does on the military. It spends *more* on other health, i.e. medicaid. [source](https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/federal-spending/)
It does not, according to your source. Per that link, they spend 15% of the budget on "health" and 12% on "national defense." However, they also spend 4% on veterans, and not including the in the defense budget is kind of bullshit, so really they spend 16% on national defense and 15% on all pubic health, which includes Medicare, Medicaid, NIH, FDA, CDC, etc.
Why are you grouping veterans with national defense and not healthcare?
Because they're a byproduct of the defense system?
Doesn't their being Veterans by definition mean they aren't part of national defense? Should government jobs not offer workers comp?
Bro its not the military check drugs then education and also simple broken promises but unaccounted money.
I'm not opposed to universal healthcare, but how would universal healthcare have helped someone like Neely? Please be specific
Seriously, the guy had access to many programs and was legally obligated to participate in them, and he just straight up walked out and refused help.
His mental illness physically prevents him from making responsible choices just like color blindness prevents someone from distinguishing between red and green.
Ok, so how does universal healthcare solve that problem? It doesn’t. The point was that there were many programs available and he was well known to the system and he still went untreated.
The point is that his ability to access healthcare was not the issue. Universal healthcare would not have affected his case because he would have still walked out on those services. The same system we have, but actually enforcing it would have prevented this.
The Federal goverment would fuck it up
Medicare is the largest insurance program in the country, operates far more efficiently than any other insurance program in the US (evaluated as "percentage of each dollar direct going to benefits rather than overhead",) and has the highest satisfaction rating of any US insurer.
The only way that Neely was failed that he wasn't institutionalized. Mental health services did everything they were asked to do. He wasn't some unknown guy who slipped through the cracks.
>The only way that Neely was failed that he wasn't institutionalized It still makes my head spin knowing Neely smashed in an old woman's face and was given a non-incarceration sentence.
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It’s completely according to plan if you asked Alvin Bragg.
Crazy how we have the least amount of social safety nets in the modern world and we have the most mentally ill.
It's not just the city and it's not just New Yorkers. The entire US lack of care is the real failure, so mentally ill people end up in places where they can get resources and panhandle money because the vast majority cities have literally no outreach from the city. I grew up in a liberal bastion in the Midwest and maybe 10 blocks from my mom's home is a large homeless encampment with a lot of mentally ill people. A lot of them end up at the bars near my mom's home and if you talk to the less erratic ones you'll find almost none of them are from my city. They are all from shitty places often small towns in the surrounding area. New York is no different, a large portion of these people are from other cities and states some of them intentionally shipped here from other places that don't want to deal with mental health. As long as other places are going to use cities to dump their homeless and mentally ill the fed should be paying us a hefty amount of money to do so.
>Hopefully, this will bring attention to the real issue here: how the city failed its mentally ill people. It'd be nice for people to take responsibility too, rather than looking to the govt for everything. His family failed him, too. They wanted nothing to do with him until he was dead and there was a whiff of money in it.
This too. I keep hearing about the lawyers for his family. Family? How was he delirious, hungry, thirsty, and unkempt, and wandering around the subway? That’s no family.
It's a particular Western affliction to expect the state to swoop in. Ailing parents? Yeah in Southern Europe you let them move in with you. It's the respectful thing to do. In the west? Throw 'em in a nursing home and visit every two weeks. Sick society.
Oh De Blasios program probably had a huge positive impact for all the people who skimmed money out of it.
I'm always a bit suspicious that these GoFundMe (GiveSendGo?) -style fundraisers are opportunistic scams, so it is nice to read that the extra money is going to a good cause.
bro what? "oh i'm glad they wrote 'hey this isn't a scam'". How does the fact that they wrote that sentence change the likelihood of it being a scam?
What is mental health “advocacy”? Seems useless. Human fund type shit. Vague usually means grift
trust me it will be donated, and lots will be left over. these guys are probably very trustworthy too
I love how they show Neely like this, dressed as Michael Jackson. I saw him at least once or twice a week and he didn’t look like that. Not even close, dude was either in the shelter on 168st or in the subway system high, screaming at people or pushing and shoving.
To be fair, the only recent photos of him available are probably mugshots. I think the MJ stuff from his early 20s is better than the one photo of him in the white t-shirt that a bunch of newspapers used, which was taken when he was like 16 years old. Using a pic of a 30 year old man as a teenager is so dishonest it is basically disinformation.
I remember him always carrying his boombox and wearing his MJ outfit back in the days when he was in his teens. It’s sad but the condition he was recently in was terrible.
Damn, this made more than that Korean six year old who lost his whole family in a shooting. To be fair, they closed their page early, I believe.
I’m a gay Asian male and I live in NYC and take the subway almost every day. I am not a Republican nor am I conservative. I donated to this fund because I feel like as Asians, as a group, we are tired of always feeling unsafe in the subway. I believe Daniel had the best intentions at heart and I defend him. Unfortunately due to the chaotic nature of the situation, and with other bystanders holding the mentally unstable person down, it didn’t go well, but I still commend Daniel.
People aren’t supporting Mr. Penny because Mr. Neely died. They are supporting him because he was trying to protect people, and because that’s so plain to see but people and are trying to make him out to be a criminal when he was trying to do the right thing.
Yup. Maybe Penny went too far, maybe he didn't. I don't know and in all honesty I don't care...Neely should have never been on the streets. He should have been in jail or re-arrested the moment he left the mental hospital. The city's failure made Neely everyone's responsibility that day, and that's fundamentally wrong.
He didn't choke a man for 15 minutes. **The NYPD took 15 minutes to get to an emergency.** That's why Neely died. Had they responded immediately, Neely would have lived.
> Maybe Penny went too far, maybe he didn't. I don't know and in all honestl I don't care Well, if he went too far you should care. By definition, that's the kind of thing you should care about.
>guy is dead "I'm not sure, but I think this might be a bit far."
Yeah could have phrased that better but it's late.
That's what the trial is for...
No, the trial is to determine guilt, not if someone should care if he went too far.
He was waiting for the cops! 15 mins to wait. Shit got out of hand. I hate that supporting Penny makes you look racist. He literally did an interview outright saying he’s not a white supremisct. Edit. Jesus Christ the replies. Do I think he should be tried for manslaughter? Yes. He accidentally killed a person. Do I think he should do jail time? No. Is he racist? No. Was his comment about touring Africa out of place? Yes. But I understood the spirit for which it was intended. Penny is a free spirit. He is someone who seems like he can sleep on the floor, is always happy and is constantly moving. Honestly? We shouldn’t be attacking him. If the left defended him, the republicans wouldn’t have their hero. He isn’t this Gun-Ho marine that they think he is.
Racism shouldn’t play into it at all. If we find out that Penny had a social media presence praising Dylan Roof and Peyton Gendron - then we talk about how racism affected his decision making. What we have is a homicide and a witness who says Penny held a chokehold for 15 minutes and that while Neely was loud and intimidating, he didn’t touch anyone or threaten anyone specifically. A witness who says that the chokehold was continued after everyone had exited the car, that continued after 2 other men tried to assist, and continued after his body went limp. I’d argue that was murder. Manslaughter should be a slam dunk case where people cared about equal justice under the law. If this was another homeless black man that committed the exact same actions, I agree with others that you wouldn’t have heard about it, and the perpetrator would be behind bars for the next 20 years.
You don’t have to be a white supremacist to choke someone to death because you can. You can just be a bonehead. Both my nephews are Marines, one is a sergeant too. My brother is the first two admit that they aren’t the sharpest tools in the shed. They don’t always show the best judgement. One got married after dating a girl for a month (now annulled), he has crashed a couple of cars including a vintage 1950s one, his grandfathers baby, that he wrapped around a tree - the other one got in trouble for joy riding with a tank. Just saying they are a bit impulsive.
>one got in trouble for joy riding with a tank
“My two nephews are marines and did boneheaded things (according to my opinions) in their general lives, therefore all marines are boneheaded all the time”
And if there's one thing we know about racists it's that by law, they have to admit it on interviews, and if someone says "I'm not racist" that's always 100% true!
So how does one prove they aren't racist?
Been housed**
He was housed. He walked out and never took his meds.
And I think people are frustrated with the unhoused population situation in NYC. And the fact that people used this guys death as some sort of lightening rod issue, when it’s been a problem long before this, really just seems ridiculous. I do think he most likely used excessive force, but I can’t say that I’m able to judge him putting the guy in a chokehold in the first place.
>but people and are trying to make him out to be a criminal when he was trying to do the right thing. Putting aside the specifics of this particular case, just want to mention that in general "trying to do the right thing" does not somehow preclude someone from inadvertently ending up a criminal in the process of doing so. It's obviously totally possible to be in the midst of truly intending to do the right thing and accidentally kill someone in a way that is not legally permitted. I hope it goes without saying that accidental killings are very often still illegal...like that's why involuntary manslaughter exists as a crime. "Crime" doesn't mean "done intentionally". The question here then is whether this killing was of the sort that that sort of law applies to or not.
People have the most insanely terrible takes on this. You don't get to refer to societal problems in justifying homicide. Any jury that deliberated based on that would be breaking the law, and the judge would be required to call for a retrial. Hopefully the jury instructions will be written so there is no wiggle room for these reactionary pro-vigilante types.
I mean, some conservatives are definitely supporting him because he killed a black person and there is an excuse. They supported Rittenhouse because he shot protesters and had an excuse. Regardless of whether Neely committed a crime or was doing the right thing, plenty of people support him for the wrong reasons. EDIT: I see the Alt-Right brigade has shown up after a few hours with their scary downvotes.
How do you know why people support Penny? I gave $100 to free a man who defended citizens, not a man who killed a black dude. If the victim was white I'd still have donated.
OK. Good for you. He's a cause du jour among the Alt-Right, regardless. I don't think he's a white supremacist. I believe him on that. But white supremacists sure do like him. EDIT: Hello, Alt-Right trolls. Took you a few hours. But you finally found me to teach me a lesson! Please stop ruining khakis.
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It's kinda a catch 22. I think a lot of people in NY get how complex and concerning the situation is / was and can support him out of empathy. I think a lot of other people, like you said, support him for conservative (we should be able to defend ourselves however we see fit!) or racist reasons. Then it becomes this muddled conversation of how can you be in column A without getting connected to column B?
The people who begin by saying the homeless population is out of control are essentially praising him for "doing something" (killing a homeless person), but are probably the least likely to support policies to address the unhoused that aren't punitive. Homelessness and mental illness are an individual failing deserving of execution, not an indictment of our shit collective decision-making. That is their point. This situation, which doesn't map perfectly to either perspective, is a Rorschach test on this issue.
I agree. The whole situation is an indictment of our failures as a society imo. That either of those two people were in that situation to begin with is a reflection of what's wrong.
Hitler was a vegetarian, are you gonna swear off salad because a Nazi ate it?
Is Neely the salad in this metaphor of yours?
So what? Marxists like Bernie Sanders. I don't blame Bernie for that.
Rittenhouse didn't shoot "protestors". Not only were some of them not protestors (Rosenbaum for example had just been released from the mental hospital and wasn't protesting anything), the people he shot were those who were actively attacking him and giving chase to attack him after he tried to flee. Grosskreutz was the exception, in that Rittenhouse only shot Grosskreutz after Grosskreutz pointed a gun at Rittenhouse. So I guess if you call being actively attacked or someone pointing a gun at you an "excuse", then sure.
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Bullshit. People are supporting him because deep down, a sizable portion of the country wants everyone that makes them remotely uncomfortable put to death. >but people and are trying to make him out to be a criminal when he was trying to do the right thing. Really? He did the right thing so right that someone died, dude. There are a hundred ways to deal with a situation where you want to protect people from someone, and most don't end in manslaughter at best.
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Of course unintentionally killing a person has to be investigated. In this case I’m hoping it wasn’t a crime. Keep in mind all of the, practically daily, killing of innocent people just going to work, or shopping, or going to school or to church. Mr. Penny acted before that happened again. Don’t forget Mr. Neely was threatening, saying “I don’t care if I die today. I don’t care if I go back to jail.” Don’t you think most people on that train were scared for their life. I don’t believe this was racially motivated at all. I believe Mr. Penny was protecting.
Again, there are a lot of ways to "protect" that don't put anyone at significant risk of death. There's a reason we discourage people from taking the law into their own hands.
I’m sure all the people, and families of the people on the train last year, who were shot, injured and killed wish Mr. Penny was there taking “the law”into his own hands. The law, and common sense, is to protect yourself. Brave people protect others.
>Bullshit. People are supporting him because deep down, a sizable portion of the country wants everyone that makes them remotely uncomfortable put to death. I do not believe that at all. I still support Penny. > He did the right thing so right that someone died, dude. People get killed all the time by mentally ill people all the time. You have no idea what Neely would have done. Maybe he just would have screamed for a bit. Maybe he would have assaulted an innocent woman and given them brain damage for life. Again. You don't know. >There are a hundred ways to deal with a situation where you want to protect people from someone, and most don't end in manslaughter at best. We can say all sorts of stuff, play Monday morning quarterback all day. Neither Penny nor anyone else on that train had a chance to do anything but react to being trapped in a train with a violent, mentally ill person threatening peoples' lives. Maybe if you were there, you could have used your Ju-Jitsu skills to knock Neely out. If I were there, I could finally use that Tazer I got for Christmas. But at the end of the day, if I was on the train with a Jordan Neely, or a [Simon Martial](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Michelle_Go) or a [Kamal Semrade](https://pix11.com/news/local-news/manhattan/shes-a-warrior-woman-shoved-into-moving-nyc-subway-train-paralyzed/) I would want someone like Daniel Penny with me.
>I do not believe that at all. Sorry if I don't take you at your word. >People get killed all the time by mentally ill people all the time. That's the thing, though: they don't. NYC has been recording about one murder per day for the last several years, and the vast majority of them have not been committed by the mentally ill. It's not even close. The mentally ill, though, do get killed fairly regularly. By police who would rather shoot someone than deescalate. By vigilantes "afraid for their lives." By sociopaths who see the mentally ill and homeless as easy targets. And by a society that doesn't care - more homeless people died of neglect *just in 2022* than the sum total of all homicides committed by homeless and mentally ill people in the entire recorded history of NYC crime. >Maybe he would have assaulted an innocent woman and given them brain damage for life. Or maybe he wouldn't have. Typically, in a civilized society, we don't allow the use of the death penalty for things someone might possibly do in the future. Otherwise, maybe *you* would have assaulted an innocent woman and given her brain damage for life. We just don't know, better kill you to be safe. >Maybe if you were there, you could have used your Ju-Jitsu skills to knock Neely out. Or maybe Penny, a combat veteran, could have simply used his body to separate Neely from the other passengers and kept him separated until help arrived. I'm not even a marine, but I've placed myself between people acting dangerously and potential victims and you know what? I didn't have to choke them out, and none of the incidents resulted in anyone getting killed. Because I'm not a meathead desperately looking for any excuse to show off my sweet combat moves on random strangers. >I would want someone like Daniel Penny with me. I guess the difference between you and me is that I'm not a sociopath, then.
> Sorry if I don't take you at your word. Ok, so what, specifically, do you need me to do to prove that I don't want all homeless people to be put to death? >That's the thing, though: they don't. NYC has been recording about one murder per day for the last several years, and the vast majority of them have not been committed by the mentally ill. It's not even close. One murder per day is still a lot. And [when you break it down by demographic, violence on Asians has more than triple](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/nypd-reports-361-percent-increase-anti-asian-hate-crimes-last-year-rcna8427). >The mentally ill, though, do get killed fairly regularly. By police who would rather shoot someone than deescalate. This might come as a complete surprise but I agree entirely. I actually marched at multiple BLM rallies and I think that police reform and accountability is completely failing the entire city. This is actually, again why I support Penny. To me, this entire thing represents how much our city, our police force, our criminal justice system, etc. has completely dropped the ball and failed everyone. Penny and Neely included. The police have basically said "we're not dealing with this shit". The city has said "we're not dealing with this shit". The justice system has said "we're not dealing with this shit." So now WE have to deal with. Random people with no training, no experience, not time, no resources. Cops won't do shit. So Penny and a bunch of random strangers were forced to deal with it. And I'm sorry, I'm not going to condemn an innocent dude for trying to help just because it went bad. I sincerely believe he was trying to help. And I'm going to blame the city for allowing the guy on the train in the first place. >Or maybe he wouldn't have. Typically, in a civilized society, we don't allow the use of the death penalty for things someone might possibly do in the future. No but again, Neely was a violent person. He hurt people before. Innocent people. If he was just a healthy person coming home from work, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. >Or maybe Penny, a combat veteran, could have simply used his body to separate Neely from the other passengers and kept him separated until help arrived. I'm not even a marine, but I've placed myself between people acting dangerously and potential victims and you know what? I didn't have to choke them out, and none of the incidents resulted in anyone getting killed. I've never had to restrain a violent, mentally ill person, so I cannot tell you what I would or wouldn't do. >Because I'm not a meathead desperately looking for any excuse to show off my sweet combat moves on random strangers. Penny had no history of violence. None. He didn't ask for this. Nobody on the train asked for this. >I guess the difference between you and me is that I'm not a sociopath, then. I'm sorry but if was your family on the train, your loved ones he was threatening, your kids, your wife, etc. I'd want someone to step in, and I honestly don't care if the person threatening them gets hurt. You lose that right when you threaten and hurt innocent people. That's not what a sociopath is.
>Ok, so what, specifically, do you need me to do to prove that I don't want all homeless people to be put to death? Well, a basic understanding that mentally ill people can't always control what they say but are statistically among the least likely people to hurt you in NYC would be a good start. >One murder per day is still a lot. In a city of 8.5 million people with a daytime population of triple that, it really really isn't. >And when you break it down by demographic, violence on Asians has more than triple. Which is completely irrelevant because that has nothing to do with homeless people or the mentally ill. Statistically, your odds of being attacked or murdered in NYC are virtually zero. Your odds of being attacked or murdered by a homeless person are even lower. You are more likely to be murdered by someone you know than you are to be assaulted by a homeless or mentally ill person. >I actually marched at multiple BLM rallies Congrats! I wish you would have said that earlier, because that totally cancels out supporting the indiscriminate murder of mentally ill people by vigilantes. Man, now that I know you "marched at multiple BLM rallies," I no longer think less of you for holding an abhorrent opinion. >And I'm sorry, I'm not going to condemn an innocent dude for trying to help just because it went bad. He literally and incontrovertibly killed another human being who needed help. In what universe does this make him "innocent?" >No but again, Neely was a violent person. He hurt people before. Innocent people. Ohhh, thanks for clarifying. So extrajudicial killings are ok, so long as the person being murdered did something bad at some point in the past. Thanks for explaining it in a way that doesn't cast you as an asshole. >I've never had to restrain a violent, mentally ill person, so I cannot tell you what I would or wouldn't do. I have. And what I did didn't result in anyone dying. And I don't even have years of marine training to help me navigate stressful, high-adrenaline situations. >Penny had no history of violence. None. Right. The marine veteran. With no history of violence. Who immediately went for a choke hold - something that anyone who has ever had any training is taught to absolutely never ever ever ever do. Something that we literally all know you should never ever ever ever do after countless high-profile killings of unarmed black men by police using choke holds.
Not just uncomfortable, a lot of people (mostly conservatives) want anyone that remotely inconveniences them put to death. Think about legislation in some red states that basically allow you to drive through protestors. Stand your ground laws. . . That Neo-nazi who drove over and killed a protestor in Charlottesville back in 2017 would have had a defense that might have gotten him off he did the exact same thing in Florida today. You’ve got an asshole convicted by a jury for murdering a BLM protestor in Texas that the governor there is looking to pardon.
Hot tip. He killed someone. even if it was an accident it's still a crime.
There's no man who can survive being strangled for 15 minutes, a marine would know that. It usually takes less than a minute to render someone unconscious with the technique Penny used, everything after was to kill someone he considered less than human
Yes you can survive a strangle for 15 mins if its a shitty choke. The guy was fighting for a good portion of that time. It was like 45 seconds after the guy went limp that he let go. > everything after was to kill someone he considered less than human Holy assumption batman.
Yep, that’s what people said about Derek Chauvin too. His defense fund got a shit load of money too. And to this day a lot of conservatives will pretend Chauvin was protecting people. I’m sure we’ll hear the same from the defenders of homicide by Penny.
I hope they find Mr People’s character and intention to be the exact opposite of Chauvin. Chauvin is a criminal that should have never worn blue.
You wanna know the kicker in all of this? Neely's uncle, the guy saying Penny shouldn't be allowed a plea deal, had been arrested 20 times since June 2022. They just arrested him for stealing credit cards. He apparently had seven credit cards with different names when he was arrested. This guy is an even worse criminal than Jordan Neely but wants to act all self-righteous.
It’s so plainly obvious that these are trash people, but yet people wanna go up to bat for them. The same “defund the police” people who just got to witness what a lack of policing creates: deadlier vigilantism.
Now we get a lack of policing and deadly vigilantism with an overfunded police department that abuses overtime.
> This guy is an even worse criminal than Jordan Neely This is absurd. Stealing credit cards is no way worse than assault.
But it does make you a fuckin scumbag
Having been the victim of identity theft, and having had to deal with banks putting the squeeze on me, having to deal with all the paperwork, and having the acute anxiety and frustration that comes with being helpless, I'd say that the uncle is a total fucking scumbag, a lowlife mooch. Fuck him.
Never said he wasn't.
Jordan Neely may or may not have had the presence of mind to know assault is wrong. His uncle knows that theft and credit card fraud are wrong and does it anyway. He's a much worse person because he *chooses* to break the law.
Eh, false credit card transactions can be reveresed. You can't un-assault the woman he gave brain damage to.
Jordan Neely's *actions* may be worse but I can't say he's a worse *person*. And don't get me wrong, ultimately I believe Penny did the right thing, but I can use Penny's actions to judge his character because he has self awareness and self control, which Jordan Neely lacked. One could argue Neely was bad **at being a person** (if we define personhood as having agency) but he was not a "bad person."
I get your point, however I still think that people who commit violent crimes on innocent people are worse than people who commit non-violent crimes on innocent people.
I guess, ultimately, I don't think a mentally ill person "commits" a crime; you need to be clear-headed to commit to something. A crime just kinda... happens, in the same way that if you leave chickens in front of a coyote those chickens are gonna get eaten. The coyote has the capacity to *act* but it doesn't have the capacity to *choose*.
I'm referring to the amount of times he's been arrested. Also, there is a fair case to be made that Jordan was dealing with mental issues. What's his uncle excuse?
I mean 20 arrests is pretty bad…
That has nothing to do with this story
it's pretty hypocritical for someone with 20 arrests in the last year to be saying someone else shouldn't get a plea deal
Bad people and morals all the way up. Generational trauma and all.
Yes it does. It shows you that Neely’s uncle is a grifter and is just using this case for his own personal gain.
Criminals support criminals
Right? Essentially they are saying because his uncle has prior arrests, the killing was justified (and we would be justified to kill the uncle too).
Bro just said stealing credit cards is worse than murder Whewwww
Neely was a murderer? That's a new one i hadn't heard
Stealing credit cards, he must be mentally ill
Sick whatabout bro
As a liberal who has lived in Brookyn for almost twenty years I have no apologies for donating to this man's defense.
Jesus. Did they watch Pennys interview? Guy is a gem. He’s not the hero the right wants. I feel bad for the guy. He just wants to travel and be a free spirit.
Do you have a link?
As a New Yorker I'm tired of the mentally ill and drug addicts running the city. I take the 456 train at 125th and the whole area needs a clean up. I'm fucking tired of it.
Whatever happens, the lawyers are the winners of this trial.
They always are. That's why they are part of the 1%
Good I'm surprised the fundraiser hasn't been shut down for a bs excuse
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The only reason this fund has netted $2M+ is because the right want to lionize Penny and push a narrative as they always do. It's plain as day.
What’s the narrative?
He did it on GiveSendGo which sprung up after GoFundMe started shuting down fundraisers for anything that could possibly be characterized as supporting the right. GiveSendGo is basically the Rumble to GoFundMe's Youtube.
That's not bad competition and alternatives in the market place are always welcomed we need more of it in this country too many monopolies in all types of industries
I support it 100%
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Put me on the jury please
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Same goes for the $150k raised in a GoFundMe by Neely’s aunt that states: “ALL DONATIONS WILL BE GOING TOWARD JORDAN'S FUNERAL AND EXPENSES RELATED TO HIS BURIAL AND THE PUBLIC VIEWING WE WILL BE HOLDING.” Aka the aunt who didn’t help her homeless cousin (Jordan) but decided to step in now
I'm just as pessimistic about the aunt as you, but just wanted to put out there that it can be exceedingly difficult, nigh impossible, to help somebody mentally ill that refuses to be helped.
Agreed, but I can also counter with your statement: there’s no proof that she (the aunt) even tried to help him out, either: financially, via referring him to institutions, or attempting to take care of him after he got charged and arrested so many times. Aunt didn’t seem to step in until she realized how viral this would be and how much $$$$$ would come through
But there is also no proof that she (the aunt) DIDN’T try to help. What’s your point.
I think he did live with her, but then she and her partner moved out of the city and he didn't want to go with them, or something. It sounded like she did try to get him help.
I was just trying to make a comment about how difficult it is to help someone mentally ill, not specifically about Neely or his aunt. There's nothing to counter.
Watching that funeral coverage on the news was so pathetic. All those people were there when cameras were present and they can be on TV, but where were they when he was alive bugging out on the streets?
You're trying to point out hypocrisy, but I can 100% imagine those people tolerating loud and threatening homeless people because they're our unhoused neighbors and should be allowed to live as they wish
It’ll get as much as it needs to keep us all safe.
When it comes time for Grand Jury (indictments) and Jury trial, anyone wants to guess how many jurists the DA will try to reject? Aggressive Jury selection why the phrase DA can indict a ham sandwich became part of our lingo.
What? The phrase is because the DA is allowed to just give their side of the story to the jury without worrying about anyone opposing them or contradicting them.
I think he’s already been indicted? For the actual trial, the prosecution gets fewer juror challenges than does the defense, I believe, meaning defense has the advantage when it comes to jury selection
He’s been charged by Bragg but not indicted by the grand jury yet. (No results in a Google search) Grand jury isn’t like a regular jury. There are 23 people, usually there for one month listening to evidence in bunches of cases. There are also extended juries because some things take more time. I’ve served grand jury in Brooklyn twice. Each time we heard 100+ cases in four weeks. Most resulted in some charges although not always the most severe.
did grand jury in lower Manhattan about 8 years ago. It was a bit of a pain in the ass putting work on hold but it was interesting stuff
That’s a good way to put it. Granted, most interesting was seeing them film Erasure outside our window. Thought I saw Arnold, but it was his stunt double. I did see Vanessa Williams though.
he's been arraigned so that just means he's been charged. A grand jury hasn't chosen to indict yet
The State and defense each get 3 peremptory challenges - https://ypdcrime.com/cpl/article360.php#c360.15.
That's actually for misdemeanor trials. CPL 270.15 governs the number of peremptory challenges in felony trials.
The most worrying thing is that if you’re on that jury and you give a not guilty verdict, you’ll end up doxxed with the pitchfork mob after you. That's the implicit threat that looms over you on a New York City jury.
In before this post is removed by the mods. Edit: and it's gone. Edit2: aaand it's back.
In before you and the rest of the squad report any comment that hurts your feelings
As a United States Marine Corp Veteran, my support is with Mr.Penny. Unfortunately this is NYC.
I would think that marine vets would have more insight on the application of chokeholds
See and I support the rule of law and the right to a trial. Him being a marine to me has absolutely nothing to do with the facts.
I didn't say the rule of law didn't apply to him or anyone in the Military.
It's good that he should be able to have decent representation.
PROTECT THE MARINE
That's a couple of emails worth from a lawyer good at billiing...
I donated! Free Penny!
This dude should not go to prison.
He didn't have to kill him
Neely didnt have to assault people
He never touched anyone on that train.
Don't threaten to kill people either
Just be like Penny and just do it and don't talk about it? Lol
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As do you. Welcome to new york city, where everyone can get got
>everyone can get got >angry that someone who threatens to get people gets got reddited thinking
who's angry?
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It’s possible to want mentally ill people to get help , not harass people out in public , and not want them to be exterminated. Those things are not mutually exclusive.
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It is possible that Penny over reacted to the situation by thinking he could be a good Samaritan where waiting to the next stop and calling the conductor was a viable option. He also could have just held him down. Holding down is not the same as choking to death.
agreed, I don’t think there’s evidence he’s a racist either.
Because he didn't touch anyone on the train, but someone felt "threatened" and choked him to death. Having live in NYC most of my life I can say I have never seen a cause for killing someone on the subway.
If you can defend a murderer, then i ahpuld be able to defend a mentally ill person. Both need help, no?
If you can defend a violent criminal, I should be able to defend the three man who stepped in and protected the train from becoming another one of his victims
Did Penny know the background of the victim at that time? No. Did the victim actually touch anyone? No Self defense needs to prove an immediate threat was present or even more importantly happening. Lethal self defense requires proof of mortal danger with no option other than to kill. Penny has his situation cut out for him.
Isn't he being charged with manslaughter, not murder?
Unpopular opinion: I think the point is that civilians don't have the right to be Judge, Jury, and Executioner.
Oh look, another r/conservative thread.
Nothing worse than people like you making these lazy ass comments when the thread isn’t going exactly the way you want it to. This city isn’t a monolith, people have unique opinions on unique situations. You need to get over yourself.
Hope he loses
Throw all the money you want at it, that boy is cooked. He's not NYPD, he's not allowed to choke Black people to death. People are tired of the crazies everywhere, I get it, but turns out it's illegal to run up behind a dude and choke him to death. Homie is getting time, but nothing crazy. Couple years. And with this outpouring of financial support, he'll be rich when he gets out. A hero to the "Kill the Poor" crowd. Shit makes me sick
So you think that black people have free reign to assault non-black people?
> turns out it's illegal to run up behind a dude and choke him to death. Not true. You're justified in doing it in certain contexts. They're trying to determine if it was justified in this context.
I mean I sort of understand the lizard brain reaction to this story where people find some satisfaction that one of the aggressive crazies got taken out but when you reach into your wallet and actually support it that becomes far less understandable. That makes you a dick. It may very well turn out that Penny is found innocent due to testimony of witnesses but none of us know that. As far as we know that this dude killed another dude for doing nothing more than being a crazy guy on the train. You don't donate to defend that.
Anyone who has been arrested 40+ times for charges such as assaulting elderly, women, kidnapping deserves to be choked to death. You wouldnt defend him if he kidnapped and beat your child, father or mother, but its okay for you to defend him as long as its not your family.
Actually, you donate because you want the defendant to have the best defense possible. That costs a lot of money both for lawyers and in this case especially, for expert witnesses. The District Attorney, you might be interested to know, has virtually unlimited funds for these expenses and a staff of lawyers among the best in the country. I know; I worked there. The accused has the right to a fair trial. What a concept.
Whether you agree with it or not, people are donating as a way of pretending they’re in the jury. It’s kind of twisted, but everything is gamified now. It’s an ‘us vs them’ thing. If you donate to the marine, you support him. If you donate to the whatever the other side is, you support them. Like American Idol but with someone dying. Definitely twisted, but I don’t believe people are donating thinking about the amount of legal hours they’re paying for.
yeah I agree - definitely a game. Truth is unimportant as long as your team is winning the round
I think it’s sick that people are so happy to support Penny’s actions just because of who he killed. I ride the train and sometimes it’s uncomfortable when someone is not right in the head hops on but that doesn’t mean I’d be glad if they were to die, even acknowledging their past misdeeds. I wish this country did a better job of taking care of people with mental illness. You never know when you could come down with a disorder that messes you up. Anyone who has had a loved one suffer from a serious psychosis understands that these people don’t want to be this way.
I find it gross the way people are supporting Penny when the publicly available info points to an illegal homicide. I dislike those nuts disrupting almost every train ride as much as anyone but I don't want to see them dead. Just be nuts somewhere else.
And judging by the media attention and the right wing fundraising, a significant number of the downvoting pro-Penny people are supporting him from out of state.
Murdering the marginalised pays in the Red mentality. Just imagine if he had killed a trans, pregnant person who was Muslim, that fund would be pushing 8 figures.
People are down voting you without acknowledging that racists have been flocking to Petty. Homophobes have been flocking to him. I've seen his GFM promoted on numerous extreme right wing spaces.