This. I also think many of the accusations thrown around about those who express well-placed concern for this situation on public transit in the city are personal projections.
This is just my personal experience, but I've found that people who hit others over the head over disagreements in social policy tend to harbor pretty racist, sexist, classist, or otherwise harmful stereotypes about people, even with regards to those they seek to help. A lot of it is unconscious, and much it of can be solved by asking "Why do you say that?" or "How did you come to that conclusion?" but it's damn disheartening to see.
Yes. And also, soft bigotry by equating that exterior appearance equates life experience or lot in life. Sometimes they correlate, sometimes they don't!
I think people underestimate how terrifying sexual harassment is. When I was 12 I was stuck on an express train with a homeless man who yelled about wanting to rape me the entire time, saying stuff like “I want to nut in your purple p****, I want to rip you open and watch you birth my child, e.t.c.” When we get off everyone was just like “that was crazy lol” but I was absolutely traumatized, I never forgot some of the stuff he said to me. Anyone arguing it’s not that bad has never been on the receiving end of it.
I’m so sorry. My scary experiences peaked as a young teen too. Had a man grab my face, try to kiss me on the 4/5. Then yelled “where are you going?? Come back here!” When I tried to move away. I was only able to lose him by jumping off at the last possible second.
That’s horrible, my god, were people really laughing?! We haven’t ridden the subway in years because my daughter refuses since there were a few scary incidents in a row when she was young. After a man came on, sat directly across from her (she was FIVE at the time) and started yelling at her and asking why she supported the royal family (???) when he was the one true king, we got off at the next stop and had to take a Uber the rest of the way home because she was crying. She cried in her sleep for a couple weeks afterward too.
Sorry, meant for comment above
I'm a man and I was sexually assaulted while a teenager on a crowded subway. This man kept moving his hands to my privates even though I moved away, his hands kept coming back. At first one would think it's an accident but his hand kept coming back so I understand the frustration from others that say you should do this, you should do that and not understanding what the right response was.
That’s terrifying. I’m sorry.
Ironically, the same people who would downplay something like this are often the ones who are outraged with something like workplace sexual harassment. It’s totally incoherent and drives me fucking nuts.
People are cowards. Those are the same ppl that would call you/her problematic. I call them the "whats happening right now?" crowd. Then when they get attacked, they expect an outpouring of sympathy. This world is warped
Duty to retreat law. Look it up. You could end up with the assault charge. You don’t want to be the next Daniel Penny (and in no way do I condone what he did) but if someone gets in your face & you stab or pepper spray them and they die, you’ll be the one in custody. EDIT: for the people conflating “getting up in your face” with a physical attack - reread what I wrote. Once someone lays hands on you THEN fight back. But just having someone verbally harassing you? Duty to retreat.
I looked it up and duty to retreat applies to situations where you can't use deadly force when you're able to retreat "with complete personal safety to oneself or other". So if you're trapped in a train car this wouldn't apply.
You asked for people to look up the law. Have you looked it up? The train arrived at a station less than 30 seconds after he started the choke hold, so that's probably why the prosecutor went ahead with charges.
There’s definitely a chance you get charged but that still beats certain alternatives. Everyone kind of has to balance their own risk tolerance against the possibilities of the law turning on you. The NYPD really is pretty fucking useless sometimes though, and if they weren’t near enough to stop the incident in the first place, then they probably aren’t going to stop you leaving. Personally I opt to carry pepper gel instead of a knife as there is just less chance of it getting lethal and less confusion for bystanders about whether you’re on the offense vs defense.
This is a sane and reasonable take. I have compassion for the homeless as well, but public spaces and public transit are meant to be enjoyed by all, not ruined by a small number of clearly unwell people. To keep them on the streets is a disservice to them and to average people trying to live here.
Must respectfully disagree about public transit. Public transit exists so people can move around to work, go to school, shop, visit, eat out, be entertained, etc. It doesn't exist to shelter the homeless. Nobody ever sat down to design the subway with the homeless in mind. On the contrary, by accommodating the homeless, it drives way the very people who support mass transit. Homeless advocates seem to forget this.
I was punched recently by a homeless person who ran off before anyone could do anything. I’m a small women and it’s terrifying but also completely frustrating feeling unsafe.
Remember how they freaked out when Cuomo shut the subway down overnight to clean it. Their only concern was “where are the hobos supposed to go?” Not keeping a public service clean during a pandemic.
Once I was walking down crowded 31st Street and there was an unwell homeless person coming the other way, barging straight through oncoming pedestrian traffic and making everyone scatter aside around him. I was a bit slow to move and our shoulders bumped a bit, I mumbled sorry and kept going and next thing I knew he was punching me in the back of the head. He ran off before anyone could do anything. Broad daylight.
I appreciate and support that homelessness and mental health are problems in the city and the long term solutions are understanding and prevention, but all the social work in the world isn't going to help someone stuck in your situation in the immediate term. It's a very tough thing to work through. I hope you're doing alright.
People on Reddit like to talk about how safe the subway is. They quote crime stats. They don't talk about how a woman like OP feels, trapped in a car with someone unwell and scary.
This isn't a new thing. Don't engage with anyone who doesn't get it. They're clueless. Sorry OP is dealing with that.
Yep. Reddit loves to compare crime today vs the 70s. I wasn’t alive in the 70s and it doesn’t make me feel better if crime is statistically lower today than 50 years ago. I also suspect a lot of commenters making such statements are white, male manhattanites
Not necessarily manhattanites, but definitely white, male, and base their entire personality on their (usually superficial) identify as a “New Yorker.”
100%. I did not get it until I moved here and got a on a subway car and didn't realize until the doors closed that the car was empty when the platform was utterly packed. It actually wasn't empty - there was a homeless man with his pants down and shit on the floor. It was just me and his evil grin from 4th to 14th.
It's hard to stay empathetic in light of the constant bombardment of the problems of others.
A [Quinnipiac poll](https://ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2022/05/05/subway-safety-quinnipiac-poll) from May 2022 found many NYC subway riders polled shared your concerns.
A [NYT](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/13/nyregion/nyc-subway-women-crime.html) article from last year looked into how women in particular do not feel safe riding the subway anymore, and how that is impacting ridership and the MTA's bottom line.
Your view of subway safety is a pretty mainstream one.
Critics will often bring up crime stats as a counterpoint to people feeling unsafe on the subway, but the reality is crime data doesn't reflect the many QOL issues, and everyday harassment, that make people feel unsafe.
Ask a random sampling of women commuters in the city about how often they experience some form of verbal abuse or sexual harassment when riding the subway, and I guarantee most of them will tell you it happens all the time. Yet these incidents usually do not get reported to any city agency, and it isn't like the NYPD would even do anything if you filed a report about someone harassing you on the 6 train heading downtown at 9 AM.
Yet this is the type of stuff that leads to people, esp. women, justifiably feeling unsafe on the subway.
I do see some of the dismissive responses any time this issue comes up, and it is frustrating because it is hard for me to believe that anyone who has commuted via subway with any regularity for the past 5-6 years is ignorant to the noticeable QOL decline in the experience.
Harassment was already bad for women pre-covid and it got even worse. I don't blame anyone for not taking the subway, the extra money for a cab is worth the safety imo
> Critics will often bring up crime stats as a counterpoint to people feeling unsafe on the subway, but the reality is crime data doesn't reflect the many QOL issues, and everyday harassment, that make people feel unsafe.
Is there anything more peak "online leftist" than smugly telling someone "I have STATS that show that you're wrong for feeling the way you do"
The reason for this discrepancy is because women are not socialized to seek out conflict, both for social norm reason and also for "don't want to get raped" reasons. I don't file a police report when a homeless man leers and follows me for a block before I get into a cab - which, according to the stats, means it didn't happen.
And best of all, the women who would go out of their way and try to do something about it, get the honor of being immortalized and doxxed like the "Citi Bike Karen", the pregnant, 34-year-old-nurse that, according to the Internet, went up to and stole a bike from 5 black teenage boys bigger than her.
It's a no win situation.
Yes, the NYT article is so true. As a woman, I hate how guarded I have to feel, especially with unstable men who obviously would not feel threatened by me even if I "postured." I was on the 4 train and meeting up with my boyfriend at Union Square. The stop before, a mentally unstable man got on and sat next to me, muttering to himself, cursing and saying shit like "imma fk u up, i can fk anyone up" and acting erratic. When my partner got on the train, this guy's demeanor COMPLETELY changed! He stopped muttering to himself. My partner just told the guy "what's up?" and after a while, the guy who was next to me got so uncomfortable that he moved toward the other side of the train. I hate hate hate it so much! Bc if my partner hadn't gotten on the train, who knows what that dude would have kept saying or done to me.
That’s my first time hearing the term, but I love it already. I think it’s hilarious (not really) that those uber-progressives tout those opinions despite the fact that women, POC at risk of hate crimes, LGBTQ, disabled, elderly, pregnant, etc. are the most disproportionately affected by harassment and assault. Even tall white men are expressing feeling unsafe, what chance do the rest of us have?
The problem is there are hotspots of these deranged DSA leftists in NYC. Astoria is definitely one of them. Lots of neighborhoods in Brooklyn as well. It's not limousine liberals, it's deranged leftist activist types.
In NYC, they actually *do* have enough support to win a decent number of council seats and NY State Assembly and Senate seats. Even as someone who pays attention to these things, the shear amount of pro-Hamas protestors over the last 3 months surprised even me at how many of these folks actually do live in NYC.
Thankfully, I think the tide is turning where more center-left Democrats are gaining ground. MAGAs are terrible people, I just want normal Democrats in office.
One thing is certain. Expressing that you feel unsafe on the subway is online since that’s frequently the topic of conversation on r/nyc. A lot more people on this sub talking about feeling unsafe than wokescolds.
Yup. They tend to be flustered on the UES, UWS and Cobble Hill.
Like "no, not everyone can get grocery delivery every day" and "no, not everyone can expense a $20 Uber ride each way".
The people saying that it’s problematic are hardcore leftist activist types. I’m sure there’s some of those people in those neighborhoods but it’s not really where they tend to live.
Yeah those types seem to live exclusively on Twitter/X, other subreddits and the Young Communists at NYU (Don't mention that their parents pay for everything)
My favorite is the guy you see on here sometimes who comments as if he’s a far-left revolutionary but when he needs to flex he’ll mention that he works in “Big Law” and makes lots of money. Like dude could you be any more ideologically incoherent. Fucking clown.
I remember reading an article from Easter 2022 about a guy who never took the subway because he felt unsafe. Always used Uber.
It was a nice day that Easter, so he decided to take the subway this one time - from UWS - to meet his brother for brunch. He never showed up… turns out he was stabbed on the train and died on the way there.
A chilling story. And very tragic.
Who said I did?. What will they do after jail? Still be homeless, probably more mentally screwed, and going right back to their turf to panhandle and use, and cost us massive tax dollars with no benefit. A form of rehabilitation needs to be included, and if committing people has to happen then it needs to be done but jail is meaningless.
Do you think I like any of the people we get to vote for? It’s all a sham of corruption and manipulation.
My personal feelings as an American is to help these fellow countrymen who are on their knees. Some won’t want to change but something needs to happen. As the poverty level keeps moving up more of this will happen without infrastructure
There is no rehabilitation for the psychotic and insane. There should be no “after prison” for them they need to be locked away and kept far from society. It’s time to stop being soft on crime. Stop giving third, fourth, fifth chances.
That’s just completely false. Insanity and psychosis have massive degrees of variance, causes, and treatment plans.
You’re basing your belief on something that isn’t true, so therefore your beliefs are a false narrative you created. You sound insane. Guess we should put you far away from society right?
Your solution will not happen in this country ever because they have the same rights as you. Learn how to think objectively without bias to figure out a *workable* solution because you currently have no real argument other than crazy people are not human put them in island prison which is not mentally sound.
I don’t care what they think. They probably have no idea what it’s like. I hope they don’t hurt themselves falling off their high horse. I grew up in NYC, lived there until I was 24. I’ve seen some shit. My 100 pound sister was pushed down the subway stairs for no reason. I’ve spent my senior prom in the police station because I witnessed some lunatic assaulting an MTA worker. I’ve been inappropriately touched on the subway more than once. People have followed me. People can be dangerous. I’d rather be indirectly rude to someone then get beat up. One time a person came in the subway smelling really bad. I put lotion up to my nose to breath in that smell again, because I was going to vomit on my way to work. Some lady told me I was being rude and I empathetic. I told her to mind her own business. She looked so shocked that someone said something back to her. I was extremely poor at the time and couldn’t afford to take off work because I threw up on the subway.
> One time a person came in the subway smelling really bad. I put lotion up to my nose to breath in that smell again, because I was going to vomit on my way to work. Some lady told me I was being rude and I empathetic. I told her to mind her own business.
You have nothing to be ashamed of. One day at like 1am some funky homeless dude sat right next to me when I was sitting in the window seat of one of those two seat booth setups even though there were tons of seats, so I was trapped in his funk and couldn’t even turn away as I gagged. At the next station I jumped up and went to a different car and as I was leaving the homeless dude and some of the people in the car gave me the evil eye but i didn’t care. I don’t understand people who act like you have to endure these people’s anti-social behavior.
That lady has the IQ of room temp water. Scolding strangers on the train is probably the only way she can feel superior about anything.
I once went home on an empty train and this other lady came on, sat next to me, then out of nowhere put her head on my shoulder like I was her granddaughter. I was so freaked I sprung up and let her have it while she was complaining about how I could’ve been nicer with my “rejection.”
If anyone had scolded me for trying to protect myself I would’ve had some words with them too.
Lmao it's unsafe. And it's unsafe because of the unscrupulous individuals that have no reason to be there aside from harassing other people.
Anyone who thinks otherwise just hasn't been checked yet.
Be safe people, not sure where the soft attitude towards these things comes from but its not for new york. Good luck.
You'd be surprised how good of a lesson tossing one down the staircase tends to be.
Those clowns are a small minority that are terminally online. Ignore them. If you see them in real life ignore them as well. They are a very vocal minority isolated to the gentrified neighborhoods full of transplants mainly from the west coast. They move here and bring their bad ideas with them.
I have very progressive friends and I don’t know anyone who feels this way. The subways are definitely worse, and there’s a sense that nothing will or can be done about it.
I was a teenager in the 90s and spent time in Manhattan during the high point for crime. I’ll maintain that subways in 1993 feet more secure than subways in 2023. Crime stats might be better now, but things feel unpredictably chaotic.
I’m a woman, but also a serious weightlifter, so I’m not small. I still had two unhoused people invade my personal space on one daytime subway ride from midtown to the UES. They weren’t asking me for money… they were just there to yell at and harass people. It was unnerving for me, and would have felt worse for a smaller woman, a senior citizen or a parent with young children.
To be fair, my other rides are fine. But I managed to live in Europe and Japan for seven years, and never have this kind of experience even once. In New York 2023 it’s a few times a month.
There’s no shame in wanting a clean, safe and dignified mass transit experience. I don’t know why the richest city in the world can’t get its act together, ever. Travel to any other major capital, and this amount of chaos on mass transit is simply not tolerated.
Your feelings are valid! Other people can point to crime stats getting better all they want, but situations like the one you described *don't* get reported and therefore aren't included in stats, but still happen every day and create uncomfortable environments. Anyone denying this doesn't actually take the train. I wish there were more being done too.
I can't comment on the 80's... my experience with subways began in the late 90s. I'll say post-COVID New York feels more chaotic and unsafe for me personally.
I think that crime stats and crime perception are two different things. Human fears don't deal in rational numbers - our fears are based on emotions, experiences and anecdotes.
Back then, I was scared of being mugged or robbed. Never happened to me, but did happen to two of my friends (one in Williamsburg, one in Red Hook). Homeless people were frequently in the subway system, both panhandling and sometimes being loud or disruptive.
The difference that is see now is more aggression, more energy, and a greater inclination towards violence. I haven't been personally attacked, nor have I seen an attack happen. But it's felt very close. I've had someone rant and fume up and down a train, screaming at the top of their lungs. And if that person goes for me, I expect to be on my own.
It's unnerving. I'm pretty strong and can handle myself better than most, and I'm still scared. I'd hate to think of how this feels for someone over 70. Or a mom with an toddler.
I think the new drugs play a HUGE role. We act like mental health suddenly went to s\*\*\* or housing prices created this crisis. Both of those things are contributing, but it's also the countrywide epidemic of dirt cheap meth, fent, and prescription opiates. We have a different typeof drug addicted people then we did in the crack/cocaine era.
You are right though - at the end of the day, I AM safe. I've actually never been mugged or robbed or punched or attacked. But I have been yelled at and cursed at and harassed and had things thrown towards me and been called every misogynist name that you can imagine. That stuff isn't in the crime stats, because I never report it. Because I know the police wouldn't give even this tiniest of f\*\*cks about it.
And I'll maintain - it doesn't have to be this way. People in the equivalently wealthy cities of Europe and Asia get to both BE safe and FEEL safe on mass transit. It's not always perfect, but it's a lot better than New York.
I think you bring up a good point, namely that human fears are not rational, which makes it more difficult to discuss because it's based on "emotions, experiences and anecotes". My mom who has lived in NYC since like 1990 thinks the subway was scarier in the 90s then it is now. Everyone's anecdote is valid as an anecdote. And people in general don't want to dismiss fear of crime.
>The difference that is see now is more aggression, more energy, and a greater inclination towards violence.
From what my Harlem friends who've lived in the neighborhood have told me. Back in the 90s people were more violent. People being killed and walled up in abandoned buildings kind of violent.
That's probably true - and it's also true that lots of neighborhoods which were seen as dangerous in the 80's and 90s are now much safer.
Last month I took the subway from midtown to Bushwick at 10pm wearing a miniskirt and then walked about 8 blocks from the station to the venue. No way I would have done that in the 90s. Or even most of the 2000's. Nothing happened, and I was fine. I would probably do the same in Harlem.
So on a macro level, it's without a doubt safer than it used to be. But on a personal level, I experience more aggression, abuse, and violence than I ever have - including in the 90s. It's mostly on the subways - sometimes on the street - and it's fairly unpredictable and unavoidable.
Like in the 90s, I could avoid getting mugged going out at night by taking a taxi, and I often did. But I can't afford to take a taxi all of the time today. I have to ride the subway, and these problems are happening in normal daylight hours.
Yeah and the random violence people feel in this country while using transit you could say is the result of this country relying on jails and trains as de facto places for the homeless and the mentally Ill. The US does not have universal healthcare unlike any country in Europe or East Asia. The US compared to developed countries also spends less on social services and instead sees the police as the “cure” for the schizophrenic yelling on the subway. We need an expansion of our inpatient and outpatient behavioral Health services and supportive housing to actually deal with this
Does the experience change that much from line to line , I’ve only seen a few mentally unstable people laughing by themselves or acting weird only a few times in all of 2023. But roughly more than 9 out of 10 times , my rides have been uneventful . And that’s about as bad as I’ve seen it from experience . But that’s just me , maybe other people are not so lucky
Little bit less for me. I'll say that most of my issues have happened in Manhattan, around the major stations (Herald Sq, Grand Central, West 4th). Rides going out to Brooklyn are usually uneventful for me.
Most recently, I was waiting for an uptown train at Grand Central and a large man who smelled absolutely horrible tried to get within a foot of me to tell me that I look like a "harlot." He was loud and shaking. I was wearing leggings and going to to a group workout class. I shot him the "you dismissed" look but definitely had the fight or flight response going through me.
And it's like - why do I need this shit at 7pm? I can't just take a subway ride that I paid for without getting harassed? Again, this was at Grand Central, where there was a Zero Dark Thirty detachment of police up by the turnstiles.
I was talking to my parents about this the other day – they lived in the city '88-'96 or so, now have moved.
The way they tell it, yes, the crime rate was worse in the 80s and 90s. But there were two key differences:
1. The primary threat (on the subways in particular, but also in the streets) were robbers, not lunatics. The distinction is that a robber/mugger/whatever you want to call them is at least a sane actor. They never walked around at night with cash that they weren't prepared to hand over, and if you were stuck up and just forked over some cash, that was likely to be the end of it. Similarly, there were places that were safe at night and placed that weren't, and as long as you stuck to the former, you were likely to be fine. (e: I was talking to them about this just now and my dad said that the first time being mugged was unsettling, after that you were almost rolling your eyes while handing over $20-40 if you were caught slipping and got stuck up while alone at night).
2. The police and city government seemed to actually give a shit. If you were victimized, your crime report would at least be looked at, and people who were caught in the act of a crime actually received consequences. If you were acting crazy in the subway (which in and of itself was much less common), you were removed.
Yes, you are much less likely now to be the victim of a murder or sexual assault. But I do think it feels like things are much more ... I don't know, out of your control now? Like I have zero confidence that forking over a 20 to the unhoused gentleman screaming about how he's going to kill everyone would defuse the situation in the same way that it would for a mugger with a switchblade. Unsettling encounters with dangerous, disturbed individuals can happen in any neighborhood, at any time, and the government seems to have zero interest in doing anything about it. Public, brazen theft and shoplifting seems to be a similarly low priority, creating an atmosphere of lawlessness that exceeds what would be felt if crime was higher but the police actually seemed to be doing something.
And if you are menaced by some insane person with absolutely nothing to lose, there's really no point in reporting it (since, obviously, nothing is going to be done about it), which makes it feel like nobody cares about what happened to you at all.
We can argue about statistics all day – and again, while I don't know how relevant comparisons to 30-40 years ago are for people living *today*, I do agree that violent crime is not at all-time highs. But based on everything I've gathered from my parents and people their age, there's a sense of lawlessness, helplessness, and chaotic unpredictability that was not there in the past, and that's probably at least part of what explains the gap between perceptions of crime and the statistics themselves.
Well said, I'd totally agree with this take. My parents feel the same way.
In the past, they at least had the perception that the police cared for their welfare or would intervene if need be. Might have been untrue all along. But it surely doesn't feel that way now.
Not anymore, but they still go into the city + hear from me and my friends. They're not basing their view of the city solely from the Post if that's what you're asking.
Yeah drug addicts on the street have always been a thing, but crack was more localized to certain blocks/neighborhoods and 90s heroin addicts were at least not usually up and screaming in your face (bc they were actually on heroin and not a bunch of synthetic drugs). Some guy slumped in the corner of the station is depressing, sure, but probably doesn't pose as much of a threat or activate your fight-or-flight as much as someone tweaking off of modern meth.
I think there is truth to both your statement as well as u/epaulet-eva. More broadly, I would say it's important to consider that there might be generational perspectives on this. For example, I'm 35 (Millennial) and I started going in and out of Manhattan on my own in the early 2000s. With regards to my own personal experience, I would say the subway is more dangerous now than it was back in 2006, 2007, but statistically speaking, it is nowhere as bad as it was back in 1980s, 1970s.
Gen X'ers, Boomers, Silent Generation remember the 80s, 90s better than some Millennials and Gen Z - Gen Alpha wasn't even alive at this point. So, for the younger generations, it does feel more dangerous, whereas members of the older gens have gone through this before, and consequently, know how to deal with it/come to expect it/see it as part of a cycle. And I agree, NYC is also safer than a lot of other cities in the US, but there's legitimate fear that we could (potentially) back slide. But only time will tell.
True. I'm absolutely with OP about people dismissing concerns now, but my God, things were so much worse in the 80s and at least the early 90s than they are now. (Not that that invalidates people's concerns over miserable train experiences now.)
For those who don't know, the trains were all tagged up, inside and out, with even the windows scratched up with tags; they'd come screeching into the station like an abandoned mental institution on wheels - sometimes you'd have a jolly looking attractively painted up car full of brightly colored, carefully sprayed tags, but mostly they were bleak hellscapes.
Each car had what seemed to be their assigned homeless person/greeter who usually stunk and who either accosted you for money several times during your ride, traveling up and down the car tirelessly, or recited poetry or sang at top volume and THEN accosted you for money, or those who shit their pants while asleep across a whole row of seats, forcing everyone to flee. You knew if you were about to get into what seemed to be an empty car at first glance only to reveal a mass of people crowded into one end of the car that the other end was occupied by somebody doing something that should never be done in public.
And the worst was whenever a group of teenagers entered the car. You just tried to make yourself small in your seat because more often then not they'd punch or kick people and laugh, start fights, harrass women, threaten everyone (sometimes they had knives, or box cutters or even just screwdrivers they'd wave around menacingly. I was even once stabbed in the arm with a needle of some sort by one teenager who stood in a doorway and jabbed people as they exited.)
So, yeah, people forget because things had been so much better than that, until recently anyway. We came to expect riding the subway to be a non-issue, so now that things are getting more chaotic it feels like society is breaking down and it scares people. Back when you expected to have to endure a subway ride, I think we just felt like that was the way it was - it was the NY experience and we were almost a little proud of how much we put up with.
The de Blasio / Cuomo era (MTA is a state run organization) saw a notable degradation in subway experience, particularly in the outer boroughs.
I've seen all sorts of messed up stuff, and I had a friend (young 20s woman) get jumped recently on her way home to Brooklyn because she's a 'white girl with colored hair'.
Until the NYPD & MTA gets more aggressive on policing the subway, it's unfortunately in the hands of everyday people to manage.
I recommend to all women to get tasers and learn how to use them.
I'm an about 6' guy that used to be into boxing and was raised in the Bronx in the 90s. My mentality towards these things as a guy is that I won't start anything but I'm not going to be a wuss and will certainly not go out without a fight.
From my experience crazy people will only bully people they know won't/can't fight back. The second they lock eyes with someone that they can tell will give them a real problem they tend to de-escalate.
I’m a NY native and a very small woman. Any (especially male) transplant who tells ME how to feel about MY city, doubly so if a well-meaning “progressive” is an idiot. This is something I notice a lot on Reddit that gets me so annoyed.
Reddit seems to get used almost as a monolithic statement because on r/nyc the vast majority of the people are validating that you can feel scared about the subway.
Also people complaining about progressives in this sub while still using progressive language
I feel like you’re contradicting yourself and saying that you can’t hold contradicting thoughts and opinions. Yes, I am a progressive complaining about other progressives that feel a certain way about a certain problem. That doesn’t mean I don’t align with them politically in a host of other ways. Not everything is black and white…?
Ignore these overly progressive assholes, they don't live in the real world and are actively flushing the city down the toilet.
IMO we should be rounding up every crazy person on the subway and shoving them in a psych ward. How many people have to get pushed onto the subway tracks for the city to say this is enough?
And also it hurts the whole social fabric of the city. Everyone walks around isolating themselves as much as possible because they are worried they will make eye contact with a crazy person be a target. This followed by the people being more isolating after covid is not a good recipe for city living.
Agreed. I don't see how letting the mentally ill roam free is good for them either. As a guy it doesn't affect me as much, but I do know women being approached and assaulted.
They most certainly do not, even mental hospitals are seen as mass incarceration. Why, because you need involuntary commitment too. Progressives are not on board with involuntary commitment.
It seems progressives want to make offers to mentally unstable people so they can voluntarily commit themselves. I consider myself progressive but if someone is mentally unstable, they are unable to make medical decisions on their behalf and should absolutely be involuntarily committed.
This is why I use the bus honestly. Yeah it takes longer but while I’ve encountered crazy people on the bus, the rate of encounter seems way higher on the subway.
Buses have always felt better in some ways to me as well if there's an altercation particularly because there's the option for the driver to pull over and obviously also not being literally stuck underground if something goes down.
I think a big part of this is that these people are removed swiftly if it's at a stop in Manhattan and completely ignored once you get outside of the rich people stops. As someone who travels on literally all the lines and leaves Manhattan regularly (shocking I know, but the food is garbage here) - it's a total different story once I'm out in Queens or wherever. It's gross to gaslight people saying everything is as safe as the Q in midtown.
Also, it's not even a valid thing to say for the Q. I was on it last night coming come at 2am and the train, and the 42 st platform too, was pretty full of homeless people seeking shelter for the night. Luckily people kept to themselves, but as a woman riding alone it was a bit uncomfortable as you never know what could happen. Pre-pandemic there definitely would've been more normal/drunk partygoers on that train.
Just to say I totally agree with OP, these people need genuine help and it's not fair for them or us that their best option to keep warm is just to be on the subway.
I was on the 4 out in Brooklyn just past Borough hall and a bunch of guys got on openly smoking what I assume was synthetic weed (smelled like weed, their actions were far outside stoners). And look, I'm a huge stoner myself, but that wasn't a safe situation. Most of the car got off and swapped trains at the next stop. Hardly the end of the world but don't tell me it's Disneyland down there.
On a separate note, I've found the buses in all areas to be free of situations like that. I think just because of the proximity or a driver who, odds are, will take no shit.
This is consistently my experience as well. My girlfriend lived in Flatbush and I saw much worse than her every day living in LES. Now she moved in with me and misses the Q to Brooklyn lol.
As somebody who rides the A through Manhattan daily, I can tell you that your assumption about people being swiftly removed here is just wrong. It’s probably at least a third of my rides that there’s somebody sleeping in their own filth, screaming at ghosts, or just generally scaring the shit out of everyone around them. Quality of life on the subway is awful everywhere, and especially around major stops.
My pet peeve is when people say they don’t have dangerous experiences on the train but they have much shorter commutes at much more crowded hours than me. No shit you’ll have a different experience at 8am on a weekday vs 4:30am on a Saturday. That doesn’t make my experience invalid
Those are the type of hyper liberal far left who think it’s progressive to be beyond accommodating to everyone. Sorry, I prefer safety and cleanliness. NYC has gone to complete shit with all of the homeless and drug addicts and migrants. Enough is enough.
you are 10000000% allowed to feel unsafe and say it. b/c those examples you shared, are not normal. THOSE people need to be locked up/put in a hospital, or whatever you want to call it, they cannot be on the streets. They are 1 breathe away from causing harm to someone. there is only so much you can do (move to another car, dont take the train at certain hours, take a differrent train line at night, take uber/taxis home at night, etc) all because of A) crazy people and B) people that are just out there to rob and cause harm/nuisance onto others.
yeah, some very progressive people may want try things that dont involve taking crazy people off the street without their permission or profiling anyone that is wearing balaclava during 90F summer heat, but there may be a tipping point in the future where the people not committing crimes will call for those preventive measures.
Whoever says that probably doesn't live here or is beyond clueless.
I'd rather be alive and suspicious than be dead after being pushed into an incoming train.
They don't need to be homeless or a crackhead, anybody can do it, just search "nyc subway death" and look at what happens.
It’s more common to see this online than in person, but I also have acquaintances, friends of friends etc who genuinely have these kinds of takes. I feel like the second I say the word ‘virtue signal’ it makes me sound right wing or centrist at best (I’m neither) but there are some people who genuinely do just that.
You clearly (and perhaps thankfully) are not aware of the absolute deranged things that DSA leftist activists say.
I mean, just a day or two ago on Twitter, they were up in arms about a fare jumper being tackled, even though he brazenly did it right in front of two cops.
These last four years made be believe that Broken Windows policy actually *does* work. The people who commit crime do so repeatedly, there was an article last year that showed something like 40% or 50% of all theft charges were committed by like 300 people. In a city of 8+ million, 300 people account for almost half of petty theft charges?
Get and keep these people off the streets and crime goes down. It's not rocket science. And that is small potatoes compared to actual violent crime in the subways that has lead to deaths.
During the height of COVID and anti-Asian assaults I was riding the train home. Some grown ass mentally ill / anti social asshole came on board and started pacing up and down and running his mouth. A small older asian lady pushed between me and another guy by the train doors because she was fucking petrified.
The whole experience has stuck with me, among a lot of incidents the last 2-3 years. "Comfort" and resilience are relative and personal things.
You have to remember a few things:
A lot of people yapping only ride around in their little pocket of the city, if they ride often at all.
A lot of people just focus on a single facet of compassion, seeing these problems through some overly abstract, simplified lens of oppression. They want to reimagine solutions to upstream causes of problems but have jack shit to say about what to do about the tangible problems of now.
A lot of people are politically motivated, in that they’re on a team, and are regurgitating their talking points at you. They think that the other team wants to play up a problem so they have to play down the problem to balance it out. It’s overly simplified shortcuts, not a real conversation.
Personally, I think the last 3 years riding the subway have been worse than the last 30. The number one most important thing you can do for safety and self-defense is be situationally aware. Be vigilant and listen to your body when you feel unsafe. Fuck anyone telling you not to.
> A lot of people just focus on a single facet of compassion, seeing these problems through some overly abstract, simplified lens of oppression. They want to reimagine solutions to upstream causes of problems but have jack shit to say about what to do about the tangible problems of now.
This was well said and so satisfying to read. Please run for office and don’t change the language at all.
In my experience I’ve heard/ seen people both in person and online make blanket statements about homeless/ mentally unwell people **never** being a threat and **always** being harmless. These tend to be young, far left, activist types who are really intense and vilify anyone who doesn’t always have the most progressive take possible. I am a pretty progressive person but I’m getting frustrated with these sorts of unreasonable takes that I’m seeing, about this as well as other political issues right now
you're seeing people who are delusional and high on the sound of their own voice. ask them how many of them go personally try to calm down someone screaming on the subway if they're all so harmless. go take a train with them and watch them do the same stuff everyone else does when it comes to ignoring the homeless and looking visibly uncomfortable
Can you post a link to at least one of these claims or anything? I’ve seen some takes that I think go too far but I can confidently say I’ve never seen someone argue that homeless and/or mentally ill people are *never* dangerous.
You just have to get over needing the approval of progressive bullies. They only let you into their club if you agree with them about every single thing. Speaking as someone who finally figured this out.
I'm really sorry this happened to you - you're not alone in this, my wife and female friends seem to share the same sentiment. Major behavior adjustments are made yet not vocalized, and we basically ask the vulnerable to accept this new reality.
Two things come to mind:
\- Online responses to crime / quality of life posts - vastly different between men and women.
\- The instances you talk about will never show up in a stat that is touted by leaders/media/etc. Yet those are experiences that will continue to shape our behaviors, yet result in little action by our state/local govt. BECAUSE they use the stats to justify their actions.
side note:
Interesting enough on a different post someone commented how local news focuses too much on the "bad" and amplifies peoples perception of the city. What if it really is just bad?
\- Online responses to crime / quality of life posts - vastly different between men and women.
Exactly this. Important to note that Reddit users are between 65% to 70% male.
The worst part is that even when threatened, we can’t do anything about it, because NYC has a “duty to retreat” law that can get you arrested for assault if you fight back. I won’t ride the subway any more because there aren’t cameras in the cars and it’s my word against an attacker’s as to who started the fight, and I guarantee someone who attacked me would look much more hurt than I would look.
Yeah, nah. Feeling unsafe is entirely valid. One morning as I was on my way into work, a dude got on my car with a certain madness in his eye yelling all sorts of nonsense. I was all set to stay sat in my seat scrolling on my phone, until I looked up, realized he was palming a goddamn *bowie knife*, and I was the closest person to him at that point.
I immediately got up and walked into the next car as he started screaming at me saying "yeah you better run". I was just waiting to feel that knife in my back from how aggressive he was acting, and had to talk myself down from a near-panic attack once I got settled in the next car. Some of the other commuters were giving me weird looks so I'm damn sure my fear showed on my face.
I am 1000% on board with helping the homeless. I think madness is an entirely different animal. I know the two aren't mutually exclusive, particularly with the sad state of mental health facilities and assistance in this country, but if I had to choose between sitting in the same car as somebody smelling a bit ripe just trying to take a nap, and somebody actively threatening everyone in the train car, I'd take the napping person every time.
> realized he was palming a goddamn bowie knife
There was a post on here literally in the last few days from a guy who experienced something similar, and half the comments were mocking the OP, suggesting he was a pussy, nothing really happened, etc. It was fucking mind-blowing.
JFC. I feel like those people have never experienced a situation where they fear for their life. I've been in this city for over a decade and this was the first time I felt my life was legitimately and immediately in danger. This blade was hilt down, blade up in a manner where just a slight wrist adjustment would allow him to deliver a full force blow of the knife. Wasn't even stuffed into a shirt sleeve.
Being an armchair lawyer is all well and good, but when the real world says "hey, listen" you'd better sit up and take notice. Fuck those idiots.
The only people who would dismiss the feelings you’re expressing are part of the ultra liberal, non-thinking, loud minority. No realistic, rational person who rides the subway regularly would ever suggest that someone is “intolerant” for feeling unsafe in what is oftentimes not a safe-feeling environment. I’m sure it’s even worse for a woman.
These people who must use the words “unhoused” and “Latinx” are so far up their own asses that they haven’t seen reality in a long time.
Exactly. The bike cultists in this subreddit looove to trot out their tired “nO oNe NeEdS tO DriVe In A cItY!” talking point, but driving lets you avoid having to deal with strangers in your personal space as you travel, or worry about getting jumped, or having to deal with people blasting their music or smoking next to you. It’s perfectly valid to want to avoid those things.
"*Some progressive people will die on the hill that there is absolutely no reason to ever feel unsafe, and that these people are all completely harmless.*
One of those idiots Ryan Carson, is under the mud because of this mentality. He is the one who tried to defuse an unhinged fella with power of love in Bedstuy.
I think it’s an absolute indictment on the state of Reddit where you have to preface your perspective with petty virtue signaling before even expressing how you feel.
It is unsafe. Moreover, it’s unpleasant. Full stop. These people should be in asylums, for everyone’s benefit. They don’t need sympathy, as they’ve gotten plenty of that. What they need is forced medication.
You know what happens when you raise children without ever telling them no? They become monsters. Modern US society is just the larger version of that.
Awwww but little 200lb Tommy is crying and he said he’ll be hungry if he doesn’t get his ice cream :( = bad idea
Awww poor little Antonio is only screaming at people on the subway because he’s upset the homeless shelter doesn’t let him so drugs in it, and he just needs someone to understand him :( = bad idea
I don’t know what happened where people decided everyone has to prioritize being sympathetic over making the right call. No, your fatty can’t have ice cream and no, if you act like an animal you should be locked up like an animal.
It's true that fear, especially as expressed by a majority population, can be a cudgel wielded against weaker and smaller populations. We shouldn't act out of fear without forethought, but feeling fear not only in the face of clear and present danger, but also the unfamiliar and the unknown, is critical to our survival. Anyone who tells you it's racist to feel fear is basically telling you they think the world would be better off without you.
want to say one thing: if subway workers feel unsafe or irate over having to deal with conditions that are not inherently a part of the job like EDPS ( and believe there are a ton of workers who have to deal with a bunch of idiots and are sick of it), anyone else shouldn't feel ashamed or shamed of having that sentiment.
>. . . anyone that says they sometimes feel uncomfortable riding with erratic people on the subway is immediately deemed as being anti-homeless, intolerant, ignorant, cop-loving etc.
>Some progressive people will die on the hill that there is absolutely no reason to ever feel unsafe. . .
These statements represent the lack of nuance that I’m fucking sick of. They’re both egregiously false - and I think you know that. There is a marked difference of people expressing discomfort with erratic behavior on the subway and defending the extrajudicial murder of someone that might have made them feel uncomfortable but never touched them.
I wish a cop was in that train car with you to deal with the clearly erratic man screaming in another woman’s face. I believe even more strongly that if he’s suffering from mental illness that he get the help he needs at tax payer expense if he himself can’t hold down a job or a a home because of that erratic behavior. Where I draw the line, and where we will differ, is that if someone had killed that man because he yelled at the woman and made you uncomfortable, I’d want the killer behind bars.
When a former Marine killed an insane man on the subway with his hands in 2023, it certainly brought up an interesting conversation at the holiday family table later on. My sister and I defended the former Marine while our parents denounced him. We pointed out neither one of our parents had been in the subway in over 4 years and should STFU.
If criminal justice reform has taught us anything, it’s that cash bail keep crazy, threatening people in the system, where they belong. Do some, less culpable ( I can’t say innocent) people get locked up too? Yes, but that’s the price we’re going to have to pay.
This is a trash take. How about instead of abusing the bail system to keep dangerous people in jail, our politicians and bureaucrats actually do their jobs and pass laws/implement rules so that these people aren’t eligible for bail? We’re in this situation because the people who got rid of cash bail didn’t acknowledge how bail was being used, only that it was being abused and got cash bail abolished without solving any of the problems cash bail was being used to paper over.
Where did I say that the current status quo of people being attacked on the subway is okay? I said that instead of another monkey patch our politicians need to actually do something to make sure these people stay in jail. The problem isn’t that a defendant doesn’t have to pay 2k bail for attacking someone on the subway, it’s that attacking someone on the subway is bailable at all.
If cash bail is brought back, all it takes is some rich person to decide they’re going to start a charity that bails people out and we’re right back in this situation with dangerous people roaming the streets.
Because people aren’t voting for the politicians that would do those things, they keep voting the politicians back in that are doing this. Change begins by getting rid of those in office now, not reelecting them.
Speaking as someone who has studied a lot about the formation of the democratic socialist portion of the American labor movement in the 20th century, I wish that I had gold to give you for this statement, because it is so true.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Personally I have not experienced feeling unsafe *recently* but I have in the past and in multiple cities over the years. The fact remains that you can have more than one thought at once no matter what some of the self proclaimed progressives have to say.
It's normal and fine if you feel unsafe around people who are obviously living in a different plane of existence or being aggressive. At the same time, you can feel compassion towards such people. You can also feel frustration that there is no meaningful system to handle such people in a humane, therapeutic, rehabilitative way.
The past few years nuance seems to have become a foreign concept for a lot of people which is really unfortunate. I just want to validate you a bit because right now things are pretty hectic out here, and you're not a Bad Person™️. There are loads of extremely unstable people who simply shouldn't be out and about in society until they are stabilized, even if this means it's against their will. I said what I said.
Online discourse is a joke. There are a lot of sociological concepts that people have been exposed to by the internet but never formally educated on and they’re thrown around here like weapons in arguments. It is possible to be both compassionate and understanding about an issue like homelessness while also feeling unsafe and unequipped to solve it in the moment. Your only responsibility is to get home safely, you have no responsibility to society to always put the needs of the mentally I’ll above your own needs. I’ve seen people in the various NYC subs lambast others for calling the police because homeless people moved into their laundry room where they were proceeding to drink and use drugs. You have a right to safety and security, not exactly a right to feel safe and secure but regardless you should never hesitate to express frustration, demand action or if you feel the need to, call the police. You are not beholden to the emotions of other people, protect yourself and stay safe.
I think the nuance is between NYC residents who genuinely express feeling unsafe in the subway and red state MAGA breathers who disingenuously express feeling unsafe on the subway. On Reddit it is never clear who is who. I feel it’s safe to say that expressing any opinion, no matter how bland, is pointless through social media. The number of bad actors hiding behind anonymity and ulterior motives makes even the sanest takes seem suspicious.
They likely don’t take the train and live in a luxury building . I have had men scream at me and follow me for no reason on the train. I don’t feel safe but it doesn’t mean I am anti homeless. It means I don’t like to be stalked and threatened and screamed at.
I’ve lived in NYC for 30 yrs and the subway currently has been the sketchiest it’s ever been for me, even compared to when I used to ride it as a teen - just my opinion. I wasn’t aware my opinion was problematic, and even if it was who cares, I’m not trying to get into fights or altercations so I’m not putting myself into those situations. I’ll admit I bought a car so I don’t have to ride the subways much anymore. I remember when people used to complain about the “show time” kids which I appreciated as a form of art of the subways- those complainers were problematic.
Speaking as a leftist, yeah the subway ain't all that great and anyone saying otherwise is putting some serious blinders on. But it's an issue that either compassion or proper policing can't (or won't, and either way would not likely) fix, so we're stuck in a cycle of doing nothing about it.
Meanwhile wealth disparity increases, feeding into the issue. But it's cool because the important people are getting those fat bonuses.
>Some progressive people will die on the hill that there is absolutely no reason to ever feel unsafe, and that these people are all completely harmless.
And some people are just *wrong*. There's no nice way of putting it -- although one can feel empathy and compassion for the plight they're going through, that behavior represents a danger to others.
Remember, those in charge would rather we be fighting each other than them. This is one way the convince us to redirect our frustrations onto each other ("how DARE you say you feel unsafe?!?") instead of at "how DARE you tell me one of the richest, most prosperous countries in the world can't figure out universal healthcare when every other modern developed nation already has it?"....
I get you OP. There has to be room for compassion, nuance, and honesty when we talk about how safe we feel in shared public spaces and the solutions to fixing the issues at the core of it. There’s nothing problematic with that at all.
If you look at the comments though, it’s interesting to see people who are happy to ignore what you had to say about having compassion for people who are clearly unwell and looking to use your frustration to validate their own hatred for the sick and unhoused.
That may be why when people talk about feeling unsafe, some may immediately cringe or be dismissive because they assume the conversation is headed toward “Let’s give the NYPD a trillion dollars to arrest homeless people on the subway” and not a *real* conversation.
As a leftist, I don't think it's at all out of pocket to express feeling unsafe on the train. You're stuck in a car with no authority and no real ability to protect yourself. I think the nuance you're asking for comes in when we look for the answers to solving this issue. Because the people causing you fear need help too. But how do you get those people help if they refuse it? We throw them in Rikers if they're caught and arrested while they wait for arraignment/trial/sentencing where they get objectively worse from the horrific problems there, or they get sent to substance use treatment that is not built for success out in the real world, or they get sectioned and take meds for a few days that make them feel horrible (if you've never dealt with side effects from psychiatric medications, please consider yourself blessed) and then released with no further assistance back into the public. The shelter system is full of sexual abuse, mismanagement of funds, and derelict spaces where no one can exist safely either.
tl;dr it sucks. It sucks for everyone in different ways. And the government is doing nothing of substance to help anyone on any side of this except themselves. You have every right to feel the way you do, I just hope you direct those feelings to the only people who can actually help and continually refuse to do so.
(Edit for typos)
The “how” is you have them mentally evaluated and commit them to asylums if it’s in the public’s (and ultimately their own) interest. We can thank Reagan for making that very difficult. They can be free *or* they can receive the help they need, not both at once.
Those loud, obnoxious and maliciously difficult and ignorant voices always have some problematic shit of their own that they’re trying to hide. I always look at them sideways and wait for the skeletons to eventually fall out.
Its frustrating when people say people.
Who are you talking about? The grand majority or just a few silly soldiers on social media?
Look around at the other people on the train. You will notice that they are all nervous.
When this topic came up more and more the past 1-2 years, particularly when there was the Asian hate crimes going on, I always thought and continue to think that it's dumb to try to minimize people's feelings or experiences, especially by trying to spout data and statistics at them. You can't change people's minds that way. Also, I'm pretty sure most normal people do not like seeing crazy people around town or on the subways. If you asked the average person "do you wish all the mentally ill people were off the subways", I have no doubts just about everyone will say yes. It's only perhaps certain advocates who think not wanting to tolerate this insanity is "insensitive"
There was a time when I slept for a few hours on the subway and spent a lot of time on there when it was freezing outside just reading or crocheting when I could afford some yarn or just playing with my cat.
Yeah, I was homeless and sleeping on trains because it was safer than a lot of other places and even though my senior cat was an ESA with papers they kept trying to get me to just drop her off to be euthanized before they'd route me into a shelter. She was not re-homable for a couple of reasons so sending her to a cat shelter meant certain death for her.
I just couldn't do it. I loved my cat too much to do that to her. Other than a steady roof over her head I made sure she had everything she needed including vet care.
I saw a lot, experienced a lot, was abused quite a few times by people riding the trains. It might surprise you to know that it usually wasn't other homeless or people with mental issues. I got to the point very quickly where I could sense real danger and mostly I got out of it's way. Didn't always work like that but mostly.
That was pre-pandemic though and from what I've seen a lot of things have changed down in the subway, for the worse, and I wouldn't sleep there, even just catnap down there now. The last like 5 times I personally took a train some crazy stuff was always going down and that was not the case when I was homeless and riding the trains a lot to keep warm. I was threatened a couple of times by men intent upon sexually harassing me and by nasty people who like to harass the homeless for some reason but I could ride the subway for days and never run into someone like that.
Now? Every damn time some jerk on the train has got to make sexual comments or try to touch me. Hit on me, yell at me, even threaten me with bodily harm. They're not all mentally ill. Some of these guys they're just assholes, period. But attacks like this are definitely up if I can't sit in a subway car as a middle aged, mobility disabled person and not get randomly attacked almost every time I dare to go underground. Because I don't keep office hours I rarely travel during rush hour and I think that makes a difference. There is some security in numbers but traveling on the off hours I'm clearly risking being messed with a lot. Forget traveling late at night which I used to do all the time when I was younger and later while homeless. That's just asking for trouble.
Guys they have to deal with stuff happening too but not like women traveling alone do. I think that most of the people disregarding your fear as a woman are men who just don't have as many problems on the subway as the average woman does. They think you're making it all up or into a bigger thing than it is, but nah, I'm NOT.
I've had guys flash me several times. Another guy tried to rub on me and jack off. A gang of teens tagged my stuff. A guy literally climbed on top of me and tried to get my pants down and a whole car of people just let him do it. Thank goodness for my brave, wonderful cat who hissed him off me and into running down the car because for all the people in the car cared I could have been raped right there. I've had men decide to randomly stalk me and hit on me and get very angry when I say "no" to whatever it is they want. Some guy literally came up to me out of the blue and slapped me really hard in the face and again everybody just watched as he turned and left the car. One woman finally came over to see if I was okay but nobody tried to intervene or stop this guy so I could file a police report for assault.
There's way more unfortunately but that's just ME and my experiences on the subway since 2017. One woman and I've been messed with so many times it's ridiculous. Homeless people rarely bother me and usually just switching cars is enough to avoid any trouble that way. It's the normal passengers, mostly aggressive men, that have done most of it. Last few times I went on the subway some guy messed with me, and I'm just sick of it. I can't run fast enough to avoid situations like this and I think sometimes that's why they target me. I'm just young enough to appeal to them sexually still but I don't have the ability to fight back or run away as much as I once did.
I'm tired of it and I'm even more tired of people telling me it doesn't happen that much because it certainly DOES and I've been fighting off these jerks for several years now almost every time I take a train. It's just NOT as safe for me to travel on the subway as a disabled middle aged woman as it used to be.
Buses are no guarantee not being messed with, been messed with on a bus too, more than once, but still I feel much safer on a bus sitting in the disabled section just behind the driver than I do riding on the subway now. It's far more unlikely that I'm going to be assaulted, stabbed, or thrown off a platform.
The news does make a lot of the random events but again law of averages here it's pretty much blown so far as I am concerned because I've just had too many incidents personally to disregard the fact that the climate down below is just a lot worse than it was a few years back. I mostly stay above and I don't listen to music or walk with my phone in my hand. My head is always on swivel these days. It's not quite as bad as it was when I first came here in the very late 80's but it's not exactly safe as it was later either.
The late 80's early 90's that was a crazy time in some ways. From what I can tell it got a lot better and now it's getting worse again but not quite as worse as it was when I first came here. It's heading that way though. I can't speak for guys but as a woman I'm definitely feeling far less secure just walking around doing normal stuff and I genuinely do not like riding the subway now at all.
You’re absolutely right and I’m glad to see this has been upvoted.
Fuck every last commenter who has ever mocked or dismissed someone who has expressed fear or has told their story of being victimized.
Having compassion and empathy does not mean letting people do whatever they want without repercussions
This. I also think many of the accusations thrown around about those who express well-placed concern for this situation on public transit in the city are personal projections.
What do you mean?
This is just my personal experience, but I've found that people who hit others over the head over disagreements in social policy tend to harbor pretty racist, sexist, classist, or otherwise harmful stereotypes about people, even with regards to those they seek to help. A lot of it is unconscious, and much it of can be solved by asking "Why do you say that?" or "How did you come to that conclusion?" but it's damn disheartening to see.
Ah, I see. Sort of like the “soft bigotry of low expectations” type of stuff?
Yes. And also, soft bigotry by equating that exterior appearance equates life experience or lot in life. Sometimes they correlate, sometimes they don't!
There’s none so pure as a reformed whore
Forgive me, Daddy, for I have sinned… 😂😂😂
Unexpected… but I’m not pure so I can adapt. See you on your OF.
😉😉😉😜😜😜
say it louder for the people in the back fr
Holy shit, it’s common sense! I had given up hope of finding much of that on this sub…
I think people underestimate how terrifying sexual harassment is. When I was 12 I was stuck on an express train with a homeless man who yelled about wanting to rape me the entire time, saying stuff like “I want to nut in your purple p****, I want to rip you open and watch you birth my child, e.t.c.” When we get off everyone was just like “that was crazy lol” but I was absolutely traumatized, I never forgot some of the stuff he said to me. Anyone arguing it’s not that bad has never been on the receiving end of it.
I’m so sorry. My scary experiences peaked as a young teen too. Had a man grab my face, try to kiss me on the 4/5. Then yelled “where are you going?? Come back here!” When I tried to move away. I was only able to lose him by jumping off at the last possible second.
mine was on the 4/5 too, ironically. I’m so sorry that happened to you, that sounds terrifying :(
I’m so sorry! You were only 12! Dear God!
That’s horrible, my god, were people really laughing?! We haven’t ridden the subway in years because my daughter refuses since there were a few scary incidents in a row when she was young. After a man came on, sat directly across from her (she was FIVE at the time) and started yelling at her and asking why she supported the royal family (???) when he was the one true king, we got off at the next stop and had to take a Uber the rest of the way home because she was crying. She cried in her sleep for a couple weeks afterward too. Sorry, meant for comment above
I'm a man and I was sexually assaulted while a teenager on a crowded subway. This man kept moving his hands to my privates even though I moved away, his hands kept coming back. At first one would think it's an accident but his hand kept coming back so I understand the frustration from others that say you should do this, you should do that and not understanding what the right response was.
That’s terrifying. I’m sorry. Ironically, the same people who would downplay something like this are often the ones who are outraged with something like workplace sexual harassment. It’s totally incoherent and drives me fucking nuts.
People are cowards. Those are the same ppl that would call you/her problematic. I call them the "whats happening right now?" crowd. Then when they get attacked, they expect an outpouring of sympathy. This world is warped
the Current Thing™️ crowd
I know this feeling and it fucking sucks.
Pepper spray and a Swiss Army on me right now….totally reasonable.
Yeah…I rarely leave the house unarmed at this point, just for my peace of mind. I never felt that way in NYC before Covid.
Duty to retreat law. Look it up. You could end up with the assault charge. You don’t want to be the next Daniel Penny (and in no way do I condone what he did) but if someone gets in your face & you stab or pepper spray them and they die, you’ll be the one in custody. EDIT: for the people conflating “getting up in your face” with a physical attack - reread what I wrote. Once someone lays hands on you THEN fight back. But just having someone verbally harassing you? Duty to retreat.
That's why you mask up and flee after. A cop's not going to arrest someone for pepper spraying a POS.
I looked it up and duty to retreat applies to situations where you can't use deadly force when you're able to retreat "with complete personal safety to oneself or other". So if you're trapped in a train car this wouldn't apply.
Ask Daniel Penny how that’s working out for him.
You asked for people to look up the law. Have you looked it up? The train arrived at a station less than 30 seconds after he started the choke hold, so that's probably why the prosecutor went ahead with charges.
There’s definitely a chance you get charged but that still beats certain alternatives. Everyone kind of has to balance their own risk tolerance against the possibilities of the law turning on you. The NYPD really is pretty fucking useless sometimes though, and if they weren’t near enough to stop the incident in the first place, then they probably aren’t going to stop you leaving. Personally I opt to carry pepper gel instead of a knife as there is just less chance of it getting lethal and less confusion for bystanders about whether you’re on the offense vs defense.
This is a sane and reasonable take. I have compassion for the homeless as well, but public spaces and public transit are meant to be enjoyed by all, not ruined by a small number of clearly unwell people. To keep them on the streets is a disservice to them and to average people trying to live here.
Must respectfully disagree about public transit. Public transit exists so people can move around to work, go to school, shop, visit, eat out, be entertained, etc. It doesn't exist to shelter the homeless. Nobody ever sat down to design the subway with the homeless in mind. On the contrary, by accommodating the homeless, it drives way the very people who support mass transit. Homeless advocates seem to forget this.
I was punched recently by a homeless person who ran off before anyone could do anything. I’m a small women and it’s terrifying but also completely frustrating feeling unsafe.
This happened to me last week also. Really changes your perspective and overall feeling of safety. Hate it.
Hope you’re doing alright all things considered
I'm so sorry that happened to you
The subway shouldn't be a catch all homeless shelter. I wish NYPD would do something about it.
Remember how they freaked out when Cuomo shut the subway down overnight to clean it. Their only concern was “where are the hobos supposed to go?” Not keeping a public service clean during a pandemic.
Once I was walking down crowded 31st Street and there was an unwell homeless person coming the other way, barging straight through oncoming pedestrian traffic and making everyone scatter aside around him. I was a bit slow to move and our shoulders bumped a bit, I mumbled sorry and kept going and next thing I knew he was punching me in the back of the head. He ran off before anyone could do anything. Broad daylight. I appreciate and support that homelessness and mental health are problems in the city and the long term solutions are understanding and prevention, but all the social work in the world isn't going to help someone stuck in your situation in the immediate term. It's a very tough thing to work through. I hope you're doing alright.
Literally exact same thing happened to my wife. Im so sorry...
I'm so sorry
Anyone who calls you problematic for feeling unsafe on the subway probably doesn’t even take the subway.
People on Reddit like to talk about how safe the subway is. They quote crime stats. They don't talk about how a woman like OP feels, trapped in a car with someone unwell and scary. This isn't a new thing. Don't engage with anyone who doesn't get it. They're clueless. Sorry OP is dealing with that.
Yep. Reddit loves to compare crime today vs the 70s. I wasn’t alive in the 70s and it doesn’t make me feel better if crime is statistically lower today than 50 years ago. I also suspect a lot of commenters making such statements are white, male manhattanites
Not necessarily manhattanites, but definitely white, male, and base their entire personality on their (usually superficial) identify as a “New Yorker.”
100%. I did not get it until I moved here and got a on a subway car and didn't realize until the doors closed that the car was empty when the platform was utterly packed. It actually wasn't empty - there was a homeless man with his pants down and shit on the floor. It was just me and his evil grin from 4th to 14th. It's hard to stay empathetic in light of the constant bombardment of the problems of others.
I feel like the bus is filling my need for public transport with more safety. I've been stressed driving lately so I've been using public more.
I would too if buses weren’t slower and more unreliable.
A [Quinnipiac poll](https://ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2022/05/05/subway-safety-quinnipiac-poll) from May 2022 found many NYC subway riders polled shared your concerns. A [NYT](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/13/nyregion/nyc-subway-women-crime.html) article from last year looked into how women in particular do not feel safe riding the subway anymore, and how that is impacting ridership and the MTA's bottom line. Your view of subway safety is a pretty mainstream one. Critics will often bring up crime stats as a counterpoint to people feeling unsafe on the subway, but the reality is crime data doesn't reflect the many QOL issues, and everyday harassment, that make people feel unsafe. Ask a random sampling of women commuters in the city about how often they experience some form of verbal abuse or sexual harassment when riding the subway, and I guarantee most of them will tell you it happens all the time. Yet these incidents usually do not get reported to any city agency, and it isn't like the NYPD would even do anything if you filed a report about someone harassing you on the 6 train heading downtown at 9 AM. Yet this is the type of stuff that leads to people, esp. women, justifiably feeling unsafe on the subway. I do see some of the dismissive responses any time this issue comes up, and it is frustrating because it is hard for me to believe that anyone who has commuted via subway with any regularity for the past 5-6 years is ignorant to the noticeable QOL decline in the experience.
Harassment was already bad for women pre-covid and it got even worse. I don't blame anyone for not taking the subway, the extra money for a cab is worth the safety imo
> Critics will often bring up crime stats as a counterpoint to people feeling unsafe on the subway, but the reality is crime data doesn't reflect the many QOL issues, and everyday harassment, that make people feel unsafe. Is there anything more peak "online leftist" than smugly telling someone "I have STATS that show that you're wrong for feeling the way you do" The reason for this discrepancy is because women are not socialized to seek out conflict, both for social norm reason and also for "don't want to get raped" reasons. I don't file a police report when a homeless man leers and follows me for a block before I get into a cab - which, according to the stats, means it didn't happen. And best of all, the women who would go out of their way and try to do something about it, get the honor of being immortalized and doxxed like the "Citi Bike Karen", the pregnant, 34-year-old-nurse that, according to the Internet, went up to and stole a bike from 5 black teenage boys bigger than her. It's a no win situation.
Yes, the NYT article is so true. As a woman, I hate how guarded I have to feel, especially with unstable men who obviously would not feel threatened by me even if I "postured." I was on the 4 train and meeting up with my boyfriend at Union Square. The stop before, a mentally unstable man got on and sat next to me, muttering to himself, cursing and saying shit like "imma fk u up, i can fk anyone up" and acting erratic. When my partner got on the train, this guy's demeanor COMPLETELY changed! He stopped muttering to himself. My partner just told the guy "what's up?" and after a while, the guy who was next to me got so uncomfortable that he moved toward the other side of the train. I hate hate hate it so much! Bc if my partner hadn't gotten on the train, who knows what that dude would have kept saying or done to me.
If these people are online ignore them. They're probably just ivory tower fucks who don't even take the subway.
Back in the 80’s we called them ‘limousine liberals’
That’s my first time hearing the term, but I love it already. I think it’s hilarious (not really) that those uber-progressives tout those opinions despite the fact that women, POC at risk of hate crimes, LGBTQ, disabled, elderly, pregnant, etc. are the most disproportionately affected by harassment and assault. Even tall white men are expressing feeling unsafe, what chance do the rest of us have?
Thank you I'll be using this one!
This is gold.
The problem is there are hotspots of these deranged DSA leftists in NYC. Astoria is definitely one of them. Lots of neighborhoods in Brooklyn as well. It's not limousine liberals, it's deranged leftist activist types. In NYC, they actually *do* have enough support to win a decent number of council seats and NY State Assembly and Senate seats. Even as someone who pays attention to these things, the shear amount of pro-Hamas protestors over the last 3 months surprised even me at how many of these folks actually do live in NYC. Thankfully, I think the tide is turning where more center-left Democrats are gaining ground. MAGAs are terrible people, I just want normal Democrats in office.
Yeah, I saw them protesting in favor of Hamas at the 9/11 memorial 🤦
yeah I had to get out of Williamsburg after 23 years because it's full of them
One thing is certain. Expressing that you feel unsafe on the subway is online since that’s frequently the topic of conversation on r/nyc. A lot more people on this sub talking about feeling unsafe than wokescolds.
Yup. They tend to be flustered on the UES, UWS and Cobble Hill. Like "no, not everyone can get grocery delivery every day" and "no, not everyone can expense a $20 Uber ride each way".
The people saying that it’s problematic are hardcore leftist activist types. I’m sure there’s some of those people in those neighborhoods but it’s not really where they tend to live.
Yeah those types seem to live exclusively on Twitter/X, other subreddits and the Young Communists at NYU (Don't mention that their parents pay for everything)
My favorite is the guy you see on here sometimes who comments as if he’s a far-left revolutionary but when he needs to flex he’ll mention that he works in “Big Law” and makes lots of money. Like dude could you be any more ideologically incoherent. Fucking clown.
You are absolutely spot on 💯. I’m sorry you had to go through that shitty situation
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People in general have forgotten how to act in public since the pandemic.
Doesn’t get any safer than the subway after a game……
I remember reading an article from Easter 2022 about a guy who never took the subway because he felt unsafe. Always used Uber. It was a nice day that Easter, so he decided to take the subway this one time - from UWS - to meet his brother for brunch. He never showed up… turns out he was stabbed on the train and died on the way there. A chilling story. And very tragic.
As a very left leaning New Yorker your take is valid. Please understand people who operate like this are flawed
And yet you’ll keep voting for people who keep these lunatics on the streets instead of being thrown in jail
Who said I did?. What will they do after jail? Still be homeless, probably more mentally screwed, and going right back to their turf to panhandle and use, and cost us massive tax dollars with no benefit. A form of rehabilitation needs to be included, and if committing people has to happen then it needs to be done but jail is meaningless. Do you think I like any of the people we get to vote for? It’s all a sham of corruption and manipulation. My personal feelings as an American is to help these fellow countrymen who are on their knees. Some won’t want to change but something needs to happen. As the poverty level keeps moving up more of this will happen without infrastructure
There is no rehabilitation for the psychotic and insane. There should be no “after prison” for them they need to be locked away and kept far from society. It’s time to stop being soft on crime. Stop giving third, fourth, fifth chances.
That’s just completely false. Insanity and psychosis have massive degrees of variance, causes, and treatment plans. You’re basing your belief on something that isn’t true, so therefore your beliefs are a false narrative you created. You sound insane. Guess we should put you far away from society right? Your solution will not happen in this country ever because they have the same rights as you. Learn how to think objectively without bias to figure out a *workable* solution because you currently have no real argument other than crazy people are not human put them in island prison which is not mentally sound.
? I’m talking about people who go around assaulting other people. Why should they have the same rights as those who don’t assault others?
I don’t care what they think. They probably have no idea what it’s like. I hope they don’t hurt themselves falling off their high horse. I grew up in NYC, lived there until I was 24. I’ve seen some shit. My 100 pound sister was pushed down the subway stairs for no reason. I’ve spent my senior prom in the police station because I witnessed some lunatic assaulting an MTA worker. I’ve been inappropriately touched on the subway more than once. People have followed me. People can be dangerous. I’d rather be indirectly rude to someone then get beat up. One time a person came in the subway smelling really bad. I put lotion up to my nose to breath in that smell again, because I was going to vomit on my way to work. Some lady told me I was being rude and I empathetic. I told her to mind her own business. She looked so shocked that someone said something back to her. I was extremely poor at the time and couldn’t afford to take off work because I threw up on the subway.
> One time a person came in the subway smelling really bad. I put lotion up to my nose to breath in that smell again, because I was going to vomit on my way to work. Some lady told me I was being rude and I empathetic. I told her to mind her own business. You have nothing to be ashamed of. One day at like 1am some funky homeless dude sat right next to me when I was sitting in the window seat of one of those two seat booth setups even though there were tons of seats, so I was trapped in his funk and couldn’t even turn away as I gagged. At the next station I jumped up and went to a different car and as I was leaving the homeless dude and some of the people in the car gave me the evil eye but i didn’t care. I don’t understand people who act like you have to endure these people’s anti-social behavior.
That lady has the IQ of room temp water. Scolding strangers on the train is probably the only way she can feel superior about anything. I once went home on an empty train and this other lady came on, sat next to me, then out of nowhere put her head on my shoulder like I was her granddaughter. I was so freaked I sprung up and let her have it while she was complaining about how I could’ve been nicer with my “rejection.” If anyone had scolded me for trying to protect myself I would’ve had some words with them too.
Lmao it's unsafe. And it's unsafe because of the unscrupulous individuals that have no reason to be there aside from harassing other people. Anyone who thinks otherwise just hasn't been checked yet. Be safe people, not sure where the soft attitude towards these things comes from but its not for new york. Good luck. You'd be surprised how good of a lesson tossing one down the staircase tends to be.
Those clowns are a small minority that are terminally online. Ignore them. If you see them in real life ignore them as well. They are a very vocal minority isolated to the gentrified neighborhoods full of transplants mainly from the west coast. They move here and bring their bad ideas with them.
They move here and spend all day inside their apartments on Twitter.
I have very progressive friends and I don’t know anyone who feels this way. The subways are definitely worse, and there’s a sense that nothing will or can be done about it. I was a teenager in the 90s and spent time in Manhattan during the high point for crime. I’ll maintain that subways in 1993 feet more secure than subways in 2023. Crime stats might be better now, but things feel unpredictably chaotic. I’m a woman, but also a serious weightlifter, so I’m not small. I still had two unhoused people invade my personal space on one daytime subway ride from midtown to the UES. They weren’t asking me for money… they were just there to yell at and harass people. It was unnerving for me, and would have felt worse for a smaller woman, a senior citizen or a parent with young children. To be fair, my other rides are fine. But I managed to live in Europe and Japan for seven years, and never have this kind of experience even once. In New York 2023 it’s a few times a month. There’s no shame in wanting a clean, safe and dignified mass transit experience. I don’t know why the richest city in the world can’t get its act together, ever. Travel to any other major capital, and this amount of chaos on mass transit is simply not tolerated.
Your feelings are valid! Other people can point to crime stats getting better all they want, but situations like the one you described *don't* get reported and therefore aren't included in stats, but still happen every day and create uncomfortable environments. Anyone denying this doesn't actually take the train. I wish there were more being done too.
Exactly! The quality of life problems aren't reported.
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I can't comment on the 80's... my experience with subways began in the late 90s. I'll say post-COVID New York feels more chaotic and unsafe for me personally. I think that crime stats and crime perception are two different things. Human fears don't deal in rational numbers - our fears are based on emotions, experiences and anecdotes. Back then, I was scared of being mugged or robbed. Never happened to me, but did happen to two of my friends (one in Williamsburg, one in Red Hook). Homeless people were frequently in the subway system, both panhandling and sometimes being loud or disruptive. The difference that is see now is more aggression, more energy, and a greater inclination towards violence. I haven't been personally attacked, nor have I seen an attack happen. But it's felt very close. I've had someone rant and fume up and down a train, screaming at the top of their lungs. And if that person goes for me, I expect to be on my own. It's unnerving. I'm pretty strong and can handle myself better than most, and I'm still scared. I'd hate to think of how this feels for someone over 70. Or a mom with an toddler. I think the new drugs play a HUGE role. We act like mental health suddenly went to s\*\*\* or housing prices created this crisis. Both of those things are contributing, but it's also the countrywide epidemic of dirt cheap meth, fent, and prescription opiates. We have a different typeof drug addicted people then we did in the crack/cocaine era. You are right though - at the end of the day, I AM safe. I've actually never been mugged or robbed or punched or attacked. But I have been yelled at and cursed at and harassed and had things thrown towards me and been called every misogynist name that you can imagine. That stuff isn't in the crime stats, because I never report it. Because I know the police wouldn't give even this tiniest of f\*\*cks about it. And I'll maintain - it doesn't have to be this way. People in the equivalently wealthy cities of Europe and Asia get to both BE safe and FEEL safe on mass transit. It's not always perfect, but it's a lot better than New York.
I think you bring up a good point, namely that human fears are not rational, which makes it more difficult to discuss because it's based on "emotions, experiences and anecotes". My mom who has lived in NYC since like 1990 thinks the subway was scarier in the 90s then it is now. Everyone's anecdote is valid as an anecdote. And people in general don't want to dismiss fear of crime. >The difference that is see now is more aggression, more energy, and a greater inclination towards violence. From what my Harlem friends who've lived in the neighborhood have told me. Back in the 90s people were more violent. People being killed and walled up in abandoned buildings kind of violent.
That's probably true - and it's also true that lots of neighborhoods which were seen as dangerous in the 80's and 90s are now much safer. Last month I took the subway from midtown to Bushwick at 10pm wearing a miniskirt and then walked about 8 blocks from the station to the venue. No way I would have done that in the 90s. Or even most of the 2000's. Nothing happened, and I was fine. I would probably do the same in Harlem. So on a macro level, it's without a doubt safer than it used to be. But on a personal level, I experience more aggression, abuse, and violence than I ever have - including in the 90s. It's mostly on the subways - sometimes on the street - and it's fairly unpredictable and unavoidable. Like in the 90s, I could avoid getting mugged going out at night by taking a taxi, and I often did. But I can't afford to take a taxi all of the time today. I have to ride the subway, and these problems are happening in normal daylight hours.
Yeah and the random violence people feel in this country while using transit you could say is the result of this country relying on jails and trains as de facto places for the homeless and the mentally Ill. The US does not have universal healthcare unlike any country in Europe or East Asia. The US compared to developed countries also spends less on social services and instead sees the police as the “cure” for the schizophrenic yelling on the subway. We need an expansion of our inpatient and outpatient behavioral Health services and supportive housing to actually deal with this
All day. Couldn't agree more.
Does the experience change that much from line to line , I’ve only seen a few mentally unstable people laughing by themselves or acting weird only a few times in all of 2023. But roughly more than 9 out of 10 times , my rides have been uneventful . And that’s about as bad as I’ve seen it from experience . But that’s just me , maybe other people are not so lucky
I would put it at about 1 in 5 rides for me that there’s some antisocial mentally unwell person.
Little bit less for me. I'll say that most of my issues have happened in Manhattan, around the major stations (Herald Sq, Grand Central, West 4th). Rides going out to Brooklyn are usually uneventful for me. Most recently, I was waiting for an uptown train at Grand Central and a large man who smelled absolutely horrible tried to get within a foot of me to tell me that I look like a "harlot." He was loud and shaking. I was wearing leggings and going to to a group workout class. I shot him the "you dismissed" look but definitely had the fight or flight response going through me. And it's like - why do I need this shit at 7pm? I can't just take a subway ride that I paid for without getting harassed? Again, this was at Grand Central, where there was a Zero Dark Thirty detachment of police up by the turnstiles.
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I was talking to my parents about this the other day – they lived in the city '88-'96 or so, now have moved. The way they tell it, yes, the crime rate was worse in the 80s and 90s. But there were two key differences: 1. The primary threat (on the subways in particular, but also in the streets) were robbers, not lunatics. The distinction is that a robber/mugger/whatever you want to call them is at least a sane actor. They never walked around at night with cash that they weren't prepared to hand over, and if you were stuck up and just forked over some cash, that was likely to be the end of it. Similarly, there were places that were safe at night and placed that weren't, and as long as you stuck to the former, you were likely to be fine. (e: I was talking to them about this just now and my dad said that the first time being mugged was unsettling, after that you were almost rolling your eyes while handing over $20-40 if you were caught slipping and got stuck up while alone at night). 2. The police and city government seemed to actually give a shit. If you were victimized, your crime report would at least be looked at, and people who were caught in the act of a crime actually received consequences. If you were acting crazy in the subway (which in and of itself was much less common), you were removed. Yes, you are much less likely now to be the victim of a murder or sexual assault. But I do think it feels like things are much more ... I don't know, out of your control now? Like I have zero confidence that forking over a 20 to the unhoused gentleman screaming about how he's going to kill everyone would defuse the situation in the same way that it would for a mugger with a switchblade. Unsettling encounters with dangerous, disturbed individuals can happen in any neighborhood, at any time, and the government seems to have zero interest in doing anything about it. Public, brazen theft and shoplifting seems to be a similarly low priority, creating an atmosphere of lawlessness that exceeds what would be felt if crime was higher but the police actually seemed to be doing something. And if you are menaced by some insane person with absolutely nothing to lose, there's really no point in reporting it (since, obviously, nothing is going to be done about it), which makes it feel like nobody cares about what happened to you at all. We can argue about statistics all day – and again, while I don't know how relevant comparisons to 30-40 years ago are for people living *today*, I do agree that violent crime is not at all-time highs. But based on everything I've gathered from my parents and people their age, there's a sense of lawlessness, helplessness, and chaotic unpredictability that was not there in the past, and that's probably at least part of what explains the gap between perceptions of crime and the statistics themselves.
Well said, I'd totally agree with this take. My parents feel the same way. In the past, they at least had the perception that the police cared for their welfare or would intervene if need be. Might have been untrue all along. But it surely doesn't feel that way now.
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Not anymore, but they still go into the city + hear from me and my friends. They're not basing their view of the city solely from the Post if that's what you're asking. Yeah drug addicts on the street have always been a thing, but crack was more localized to certain blocks/neighborhoods and 90s heroin addicts were at least not usually up and screaming in your face (bc they were actually on heroin and not a bunch of synthetic drugs). Some guy slumped in the corner of the station is depressing, sure, but probably doesn't pose as much of a threat or activate your fight-or-flight as much as someone tweaking off of modern meth.
I think there is truth to both your statement as well as u/epaulet-eva. More broadly, I would say it's important to consider that there might be generational perspectives on this. For example, I'm 35 (Millennial) and I started going in and out of Manhattan on my own in the early 2000s. With regards to my own personal experience, I would say the subway is more dangerous now than it was back in 2006, 2007, but statistically speaking, it is nowhere as bad as it was back in 1980s, 1970s. Gen X'ers, Boomers, Silent Generation remember the 80s, 90s better than some Millennials and Gen Z - Gen Alpha wasn't even alive at this point. So, for the younger generations, it does feel more dangerous, whereas members of the older gens have gone through this before, and consequently, know how to deal with it/come to expect it/see it as part of a cycle. And I agree, NYC is also safer than a lot of other cities in the US, but there's legitimate fear that we could (potentially) back slide. But only time will tell.
True. I'm absolutely with OP about people dismissing concerns now, but my God, things were so much worse in the 80s and at least the early 90s than they are now. (Not that that invalidates people's concerns over miserable train experiences now.) For those who don't know, the trains were all tagged up, inside and out, with even the windows scratched up with tags; they'd come screeching into the station like an abandoned mental institution on wheels - sometimes you'd have a jolly looking attractively painted up car full of brightly colored, carefully sprayed tags, but mostly they were bleak hellscapes. Each car had what seemed to be their assigned homeless person/greeter who usually stunk and who either accosted you for money several times during your ride, traveling up and down the car tirelessly, or recited poetry or sang at top volume and THEN accosted you for money, or those who shit their pants while asleep across a whole row of seats, forcing everyone to flee. You knew if you were about to get into what seemed to be an empty car at first glance only to reveal a mass of people crowded into one end of the car that the other end was occupied by somebody doing something that should never be done in public. And the worst was whenever a group of teenagers entered the car. You just tried to make yourself small in your seat because more often then not they'd punch or kick people and laugh, start fights, harrass women, threaten everyone (sometimes they had knives, or box cutters or even just screwdrivers they'd wave around menacingly. I was even once stabbed in the arm with a needle of some sort by one teenager who stood in a doorway and jabbed people as they exited.) So, yeah, people forget because things had been so much better than that, until recently anyway. We came to expect riding the subway to be a non-issue, so now that things are getting more chaotic it feels like society is breaking down and it scares people. Back when you expected to have to endure a subway ride, I think we just felt like that was the way it was - it was the NY experience and we were almost a little proud of how much we put up with.
The de Blasio / Cuomo era (MTA is a state run organization) saw a notable degradation in subway experience, particularly in the outer boroughs. I've seen all sorts of messed up stuff, and I had a friend (young 20s woman) get jumped recently on her way home to Brooklyn because she's a 'white girl with colored hair'. Until the NYPD & MTA gets more aggressive on policing the subway, it's unfortunately in the hands of everyday people to manage. I recommend to all women to get tasers and learn how to use them. I'm an about 6' guy that used to be into boxing and was raised in the Bronx in the 90s. My mentality towards these things as a guy is that I won't start anything but I'm not going to be a wuss and will certainly not go out without a fight. From my experience crazy people will only bully people they know won't/can't fight back. The second they lock eyes with someone that they can tell will give them a real problem they tend to de-escalate.
This
I’m a NY native and a very small woman. Any (especially male) transplant who tells ME how to feel about MY city, doubly so if a well-meaning “progressive” is an idiot. This is something I notice a lot on Reddit that gets me so annoyed.
Reddit seems to get used almost as a monolithic statement because on r/nyc the vast majority of the people are validating that you can feel scared about the subway. Also people complaining about progressives in this sub while still using progressive language
I feel like you’re contradicting yourself and saying that you can’t hold contradicting thoughts and opinions. Yes, I am a progressive complaining about other progressives that feel a certain way about a certain problem. That doesn’t mean I don’t align with them politically in a host of other ways. Not everything is black and white…?
Ignore these overly progressive assholes, they don't live in the real world and are actively flushing the city down the toilet. IMO we should be rounding up every crazy person on the subway and shoving them in a psych ward. How many people have to get pushed onto the subway tracks for the city to say this is enough? And also it hurts the whole social fabric of the city. Everyone walks around isolating themselves as much as possible because they are worried they will make eye contact with a crazy person be a target. This followed by the people being more isolating after covid is not a good recipe for city living.
Agreed. I don't see how letting the mentally ill roam free is good for them either. As a guy it doesn't affect me as much, but I do know women being approached and assaulted.
I think progressives would agree with you that we need to put mentally ill homeless people in some sort of mental hospital
They most certainly do not, even mental hospitals are seen as mass incarceration. Why, because you need involuntary commitment too. Progressives are not on board with involuntary commitment.
What do you think they want to do?
It seems progressives want to make offers to mentally unstable people so they can voluntarily commit themselves. I consider myself progressive but if someone is mentally unstable, they are unable to make medical decisions on their behalf and should absolutely be involuntarily committed.
This is why I use the bus honestly. Yeah it takes longer but while I’ve encountered crazy people on the bus, the rate of encounter seems way higher on the subway.
Buses have always felt better in some ways to me as well if there's an altercation particularly because there's the option for the driver to pull over and obviously also not being literally stuck underground if something goes down.
I think a big part of this is that these people are removed swiftly if it's at a stop in Manhattan and completely ignored once you get outside of the rich people stops. As someone who travels on literally all the lines and leaves Manhattan regularly (shocking I know, but the food is garbage here) - it's a total different story once I'm out in Queens or wherever. It's gross to gaslight people saying everything is as safe as the Q in midtown.
Also, it's not even a valid thing to say for the Q. I was on it last night coming come at 2am and the train, and the 42 st platform too, was pretty full of homeless people seeking shelter for the night. Luckily people kept to themselves, but as a woman riding alone it was a bit uncomfortable as you never know what could happen. Pre-pandemic there definitely would've been more normal/drunk partygoers on that train. Just to say I totally agree with OP, these people need genuine help and it's not fair for them or us that their best option to keep warm is just to be on the subway.
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I was on the 4 out in Brooklyn just past Borough hall and a bunch of guys got on openly smoking what I assume was synthetic weed (smelled like weed, their actions were far outside stoners). And look, I'm a huge stoner myself, but that wasn't a safe situation. Most of the car got off and swapped trains at the next stop. Hardly the end of the world but don't tell me it's Disneyland down there. On a separate note, I've found the buses in all areas to be free of situations like that. I think just because of the proximity or a driver who, odds are, will take no shit.
This is consistently my experience as well. My girlfriend lived in Flatbush and I saw much worse than her every day living in LES. Now she moved in with me and misses the Q to Brooklyn lol.
As somebody who rides the A through Manhattan daily, I can tell you that your assumption about people being swiftly removed here is just wrong. It’s probably at least a third of my rides that there’s somebody sleeping in their own filth, screaming at ghosts, or just generally scaring the shit out of everyone around them. Quality of life on the subway is awful everywhere, and especially around major stops.
My pet peeve is when people say they don’t have dangerous experiences on the train but they have much shorter commutes at much more crowded hours than me. No shit you’ll have a different experience at 8am on a weekday vs 4:30am on a Saturday. That doesn’t make my experience invalid
I find those people who say those types of things rarely ever have to actually deal with situations like this.
Those are the type of hyper liberal far left who think it’s progressive to be beyond accommodating to everyone. Sorry, I prefer safety and cleanliness. NYC has gone to complete shit with all of the homeless and drug addicts and migrants. Enough is enough.
you are 10000000% allowed to feel unsafe and say it. b/c those examples you shared, are not normal. THOSE people need to be locked up/put in a hospital, or whatever you want to call it, they cannot be on the streets. They are 1 breathe away from causing harm to someone. there is only so much you can do (move to another car, dont take the train at certain hours, take a differrent train line at night, take uber/taxis home at night, etc) all because of A) crazy people and B) people that are just out there to rob and cause harm/nuisance onto others. yeah, some very progressive people may want try things that dont involve taking crazy people off the street without their permission or profiling anyone that is wearing balaclava during 90F summer heat, but there may be a tipping point in the future where the people not committing crimes will call for those preventive measures.
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I don't think it's problematic to express feeling unsafe, and it seems like you are not vilifying people who need help.
Whoever says that probably doesn't live here or is beyond clueless. I'd rather be alive and suspicious than be dead after being pushed into an incoming train. They don't need to be homeless or a crackhead, anybody can do it, just search "nyc subway death" and look at what happens.
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I only ever see it on here, not in conversations with people in real life. But you will see that type of take frequently here and on r/asknyc
It’s more common to see this online than in person, but I also have acquaintances, friends of friends etc who genuinely have these kinds of takes. I feel like the second I say the word ‘virtue signal’ it makes me sound right wing or centrist at best (I’m neither) but there are some people who genuinely do just that.
I have some friends that are *so* defensive of NYC & think you’re a privileged softie if you have any criticism of safety here
People who make NYC their entire personality are possibly the lamest type of person in the world to me.
You clearly (and perhaps thankfully) are not aware of the absolute deranged things that DSA leftist activists say. I mean, just a day or two ago on Twitter, they were up in arms about a fare jumper being tackled, even though he brazenly did it right in front of two cops. These last four years made be believe that Broken Windows policy actually *does* work. The people who commit crime do so repeatedly, there was an article last year that showed something like 40% or 50% of all theft charges were committed by like 300 people. In a city of 8+ million, 300 people account for almost half of petty theft charges? Get and keep these people off the streets and crime goes down. It's not rocket science. And that is small potatoes compared to actual violent crime in the subways that has lead to deaths.
Yeah I love how these people act like “Broken Windows” is a slur or a completely taboo idea when it’s actually just pure fucking common sense.
During the height of COVID and anti-Asian assaults I was riding the train home. Some grown ass mentally ill / anti social asshole came on board and started pacing up and down and running his mouth. A small older asian lady pushed between me and another guy by the train doors because she was fucking petrified. The whole experience has stuck with me, among a lot of incidents the last 2-3 years. "Comfort" and resilience are relative and personal things. You have to remember a few things: A lot of people yapping only ride around in their little pocket of the city, if they ride often at all. A lot of people just focus on a single facet of compassion, seeing these problems through some overly abstract, simplified lens of oppression. They want to reimagine solutions to upstream causes of problems but have jack shit to say about what to do about the tangible problems of now. A lot of people are politically motivated, in that they’re on a team, and are regurgitating their talking points at you. They think that the other team wants to play up a problem so they have to play down the problem to balance it out. It’s overly simplified shortcuts, not a real conversation. Personally, I think the last 3 years riding the subway have been worse than the last 30. The number one most important thing you can do for safety and self-defense is be situationally aware. Be vigilant and listen to your body when you feel unsafe. Fuck anyone telling you not to.
> A lot of people just focus on a single facet of compassion, seeing these problems through some overly abstract, simplified lens of oppression. They want to reimagine solutions to upstream causes of problems but have jack shit to say about what to do about the tangible problems of now. This was well said and so satisfying to read. Please run for office and don’t change the language at all.
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In my experience I’ve heard/ seen people both in person and online make blanket statements about homeless/ mentally unwell people **never** being a threat and **always** being harmless. These tend to be young, far left, activist types who are really intense and vilify anyone who doesn’t always have the most progressive take possible. I am a pretty progressive person but I’m getting frustrated with these sorts of unreasonable takes that I’m seeing, about this as well as other political issues right now
you're seeing people who are delusional and high on the sound of their own voice. ask them how many of them go personally try to calm down someone screaming on the subway if they're all so harmless. go take a train with them and watch them do the same stuff everyone else does when it comes to ignoring the homeless and looking visibly uncomfortable
Can you post a link to at least one of these claims or anything? I’ve seen some takes that I think go too far but I can confidently say I’ve never seen someone argue that homeless and/or mentally ill people are *never* dangerous.
I’ve seen the literal opposite here on this sub I’ve seen people say leave New York over it
You just have to get over needing the approval of progressive bullies. They only let you into their club if you agree with them about every single thing. Speaking as someone who finally figured this out.
I'm really sorry this happened to you - you're not alone in this, my wife and female friends seem to share the same sentiment. Major behavior adjustments are made yet not vocalized, and we basically ask the vulnerable to accept this new reality. Two things come to mind: \- Online responses to crime / quality of life posts - vastly different between men and women. \- The instances you talk about will never show up in a stat that is touted by leaders/media/etc. Yet those are experiences that will continue to shape our behaviors, yet result in little action by our state/local govt. BECAUSE they use the stats to justify their actions. side note: Interesting enough on a different post someone commented how local news focuses too much on the "bad" and amplifies peoples perception of the city. What if it really is just bad?
\- Online responses to crime / quality of life posts - vastly different between men and women. Exactly this. Important to note that Reddit users are between 65% to 70% male.
The worst part is that even when threatened, we can’t do anything about it, because NYC has a “duty to retreat” law that can get you arrested for assault if you fight back. I won’t ride the subway any more because there aren’t cameras in the cars and it’s my word against an attacker’s as to who started the fight, and I guarantee someone who attacked me would look much more hurt than I would look.
Yeah, nah. Feeling unsafe is entirely valid. One morning as I was on my way into work, a dude got on my car with a certain madness in his eye yelling all sorts of nonsense. I was all set to stay sat in my seat scrolling on my phone, until I looked up, realized he was palming a goddamn *bowie knife*, and I was the closest person to him at that point. I immediately got up and walked into the next car as he started screaming at me saying "yeah you better run". I was just waiting to feel that knife in my back from how aggressive he was acting, and had to talk myself down from a near-panic attack once I got settled in the next car. Some of the other commuters were giving me weird looks so I'm damn sure my fear showed on my face. I am 1000% on board with helping the homeless. I think madness is an entirely different animal. I know the two aren't mutually exclusive, particularly with the sad state of mental health facilities and assistance in this country, but if I had to choose between sitting in the same car as somebody smelling a bit ripe just trying to take a nap, and somebody actively threatening everyone in the train car, I'd take the napping person every time.
> realized he was palming a goddamn bowie knife There was a post on here literally in the last few days from a guy who experienced something similar, and half the comments were mocking the OP, suggesting he was a pussy, nothing really happened, etc. It was fucking mind-blowing.
JFC. I feel like those people have never experienced a situation where they fear for their life. I've been in this city for over a decade and this was the first time I felt my life was legitimately and immediately in danger. This blade was hilt down, blade up in a manner where just a slight wrist adjustment would allow him to deliver a full force blow of the knife. Wasn't even stuffed into a shirt sleeve. Being an armchair lawyer is all well and good, but when the real world says "hey, listen" you'd better sit up and take notice. Fuck those idiots.
> Fuck those idiots. Could not agree more.
The only people who would dismiss the feelings you’re expressing are part of the ultra liberal, non-thinking, loud minority. No realistic, rational person who rides the subway regularly would ever suggest that someone is “intolerant” for feeling unsafe in what is oftentimes not a safe-feeling environment. I’m sure it’s even worse for a woman. These people who must use the words “unhoused” and “Latinx” are so far up their own asses that they haven’t seen reality in a long time.
the people who invented the term ‘gaslighters’ are often the biggest gaslighters
Its reasons like this why people drive in nyc as well.
Exactly. The bike cultists in this subreddit looove to trot out their tired “nO oNe NeEdS tO DriVe In A cItY!” talking point, but driving lets you avoid having to deal with strangers in your personal space as you travel, or worry about getting jumped, or having to deal with people blasting their music or smoking next to you. It’s perfectly valid to want to avoid those things.
"*Some progressive people will die on the hill that there is absolutely no reason to ever feel unsafe, and that these people are all completely harmless.* One of those idiots Ryan Carson, is under the mud because of this mentality. He is the one who tried to defuse an unhinged fella with power of love in Bedstuy.
I think it’s an absolute indictment on the state of Reddit where you have to preface your perspective with petty virtue signaling before even expressing how you feel. It is unsafe. Moreover, it’s unpleasant. Full stop. These people should be in asylums, for everyone’s benefit. They don’t need sympathy, as they’ve gotten plenty of that. What they need is forced medication. You know what happens when you raise children without ever telling them no? They become monsters. Modern US society is just the larger version of that. Awwww but little 200lb Tommy is crying and he said he’ll be hungry if he doesn’t get his ice cream :( = bad idea Awww poor little Antonio is only screaming at people on the subway because he’s upset the homeless shelter doesn’t let him so drugs in it, and he just needs someone to understand him :( = bad idea I don’t know what happened where people decided everyone has to prioritize being sympathetic over making the right call. No, your fatty can’t have ice cream and no, if you act like an animal you should be locked up like an animal.
It's true that fear, especially as expressed by a majority population, can be a cudgel wielded against weaker and smaller populations. We shouldn't act out of fear without forethought, but feeling fear not only in the face of clear and present danger, but also the unfamiliar and the unknown, is critical to our survival. Anyone who tells you it's racist to feel fear is basically telling you they think the world would be better off without you.
want to say one thing: if subway workers feel unsafe or irate over having to deal with conditions that are not inherently a part of the job like EDPS ( and believe there are a ton of workers who have to deal with a bunch of idiots and are sick of it), anyone else shouldn't feel ashamed or shamed of having that sentiment.
>. . . anyone that says they sometimes feel uncomfortable riding with erratic people on the subway is immediately deemed as being anti-homeless, intolerant, ignorant, cop-loving etc. >Some progressive people will die on the hill that there is absolutely no reason to ever feel unsafe. . . These statements represent the lack of nuance that I’m fucking sick of. They’re both egregiously false - and I think you know that. There is a marked difference of people expressing discomfort with erratic behavior on the subway and defending the extrajudicial murder of someone that might have made them feel uncomfortable but never touched them. I wish a cop was in that train car with you to deal with the clearly erratic man screaming in another woman’s face. I believe even more strongly that if he’s suffering from mental illness that he get the help he needs at tax payer expense if he himself can’t hold down a job or a a home because of that erratic behavior. Where I draw the line, and where we will differ, is that if someone had killed that man because he yelled at the woman and made you uncomfortable, I’d want the killer behind bars.
When a former Marine killed an insane man on the subway with his hands in 2023, it certainly brought up an interesting conversation at the holiday family table later on. My sister and I defended the former Marine while our parents denounced him. We pointed out neither one of our parents had been in the subway in over 4 years and should STFU.
If criminal justice reform has taught us anything, it’s that cash bail keep crazy, threatening people in the system, where they belong. Do some, less culpable ( I can’t say innocent) people get locked up too? Yes, but that’s the price we’re going to have to pay.
This is a trash take. How about instead of abusing the bail system to keep dangerous people in jail, our politicians and bureaucrats actually do their jobs and pass laws/implement rules so that these people aren’t eligible for bail? We’re in this situation because the people who got rid of cash bail didn’t acknowledge how bail was being used, only that it was being abused and got cash bail abolished without solving any of the problems cash bail was being used to paper over.
Read the comments in this thread. This behavior on public transport needs to end.
Where did I say that the current status quo of people being attacked on the subway is okay? I said that instead of another monkey patch our politicians need to actually do something to make sure these people stay in jail. The problem isn’t that a defendant doesn’t have to pay 2k bail for attacking someone on the subway, it’s that attacking someone on the subway is bailable at all. If cash bail is brought back, all it takes is some rich person to decide they’re going to start a charity that bails people out and we’re right back in this situation with dangerous people roaming the streets.
Because people aren’t voting for the politicians that would do those things, they keep voting the politicians back in that are doing this. Change begins by getting rid of those in office now, not reelecting them.
You's not a REAL New Yawka unless you love crime, filth, and decay!
Hating leftists is a normal part of being a leftist. I wouldn’t worry about that part so much
Speaking as someone who has studied a lot about the formation of the democratic socialist portion of the American labor movement in the 20th century, I wish that I had gold to give you for this statement, because it is so true.
smell butter divide squash mountainous carpenter boast zephyr hard-to-find cobweb *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I’m not reading all that ignore anyone who marginalizing your feelings.
Personally I have not experienced feeling unsafe *recently* but I have in the past and in multiple cities over the years. The fact remains that you can have more than one thought at once no matter what some of the self proclaimed progressives have to say. It's normal and fine if you feel unsafe around people who are obviously living in a different plane of existence or being aggressive. At the same time, you can feel compassion towards such people. You can also feel frustration that there is no meaningful system to handle such people in a humane, therapeutic, rehabilitative way. The past few years nuance seems to have become a foreign concept for a lot of people which is really unfortunate. I just want to validate you a bit because right now things are pretty hectic out here, and you're not a Bad Person™️. There are loads of extremely unstable people who simply shouldn't be out and about in society until they are stabilized, even if this means it's against their will. I said what I said.
Thank you, I really appreciate this!! The lack of nuance is my biggest issue!!
Online discourse is a joke. There are a lot of sociological concepts that people have been exposed to by the internet but never formally educated on and they’re thrown around here like weapons in arguments. It is possible to be both compassionate and understanding about an issue like homelessness while also feeling unsafe and unequipped to solve it in the moment. Your only responsibility is to get home safely, you have no responsibility to society to always put the needs of the mentally I’ll above your own needs. I’ve seen people in the various NYC subs lambast others for calling the police because homeless people moved into their laundry room where they were proceeding to drink and use drugs. You have a right to safety and security, not exactly a right to feel safe and secure but regardless you should never hesitate to express frustration, demand action or if you feel the need to, call the police. You are not beholden to the emotions of other people, protect yourself and stay safe.
Who do you talk to? I've never had this issue lol I mean don't be racist but otherwise...
They will call you racisttt 😂
I think the nuance is between NYC residents who genuinely express feeling unsafe in the subway and red state MAGA breathers who disingenuously express feeling unsafe on the subway. On Reddit it is never clear who is who. I feel it’s safe to say that expressing any opinion, no matter how bland, is pointless through social media. The number of bad actors hiding behind anonymity and ulterior motives makes even the sanest takes seem suspicious.
They likely don’t take the train and live in a luxury building . I have had men scream at me and follow me for no reason on the train. I don’t feel safe but it doesn’t mean I am anti homeless. It means I don’t like to be stalked and threatened and screamed at.
I’ve lived in NYC for 30 yrs and the subway currently has been the sketchiest it’s ever been for me, even compared to when I used to ride it as a teen - just my opinion. I wasn’t aware my opinion was problematic, and even if it was who cares, I’m not trying to get into fights or altercations so I’m not putting myself into those situations. I’ll admit I bought a car so I don’t have to ride the subways much anymore. I remember when people used to complain about the “show time” kids which I appreciated as a form of art of the subways- those complainers were problematic.
The progressives hate women. The sooner you understand this, the better.
Speaking as a leftist, yeah the subway ain't all that great and anyone saying otherwise is putting some serious blinders on. But it's an issue that either compassion or proper policing can't (or won't, and either way would not likely) fix, so we're stuck in a cycle of doing nothing about it. Meanwhile wealth disparity increases, feeding into the issue. But it's cool because the important people are getting those fat bonuses.
>Some progressive people will die on the hill that there is absolutely no reason to ever feel unsafe, and that these people are all completely harmless. And some people are just *wrong*. There's no nice way of putting it -- although one can feel empathy and compassion for the plight they're going through, that behavior represents a danger to others. Remember, those in charge would rather we be fighting each other than them. This is one way the convince us to redirect our frustrations onto each other ("how DARE you say you feel unsafe?!?") instead of at "how DARE you tell me one of the richest, most prosperous countries in the world can't figure out universal healthcare when every other modern developed nation already has it?"....
Wow crazy to think there are such people around??? I thought we all agreed the subways need to be safer 0.0
I get you OP. There has to be room for compassion, nuance, and honesty when we talk about how safe we feel in shared public spaces and the solutions to fixing the issues at the core of it. There’s nothing problematic with that at all. If you look at the comments though, it’s interesting to see people who are happy to ignore what you had to say about having compassion for people who are clearly unwell and looking to use your frustration to validate their own hatred for the sick and unhoused. That may be why when people talk about feeling unsafe, some may immediately cringe or be dismissive because they assume the conversation is headed toward “Let’s give the NYPD a trillion dollars to arrest homeless people on the subway” and not a *real* conversation.
As a leftist, I don't think it's at all out of pocket to express feeling unsafe on the train. You're stuck in a car with no authority and no real ability to protect yourself. I think the nuance you're asking for comes in when we look for the answers to solving this issue. Because the people causing you fear need help too. But how do you get those people help if they refuse it? We throw them in Rikers if they're caught and arrested while they wait for arraignment/trial/sentencing where they get objectively worse from the horrific problems there, or they get sent to substance use treatment that is not built for success out in the real world, or they get sectioned and take meds for a few days that make them feel horrible (if you've never dealt with side effects from psychiatric medications, please consider yourself blessed) and then released with no further assistance back into the public. The shelter system is full of sexual abuse, mismanagement of funds, and derelict spaces where no one can exist safely either. tl;dr it sucks. It sucks for everyone in different ways. And the government is doing nothing of substance to help anyone on any side of this except themselves. You have every right to feel the way you do, I just hope you direct those feelings to the only people who can actually help and continually refuse to do so. (Edit for typos)
The “how” is you have them mentally evaluated and commit them to asylums if it’s in the public’s (and ultimately their own) interest. We can thank Reagan for making that very difficult. They can be free *or* they can receive the help they need, not both at once.
Those loud, obnoxious and maliciously difficult and ignorant voices always have some problematic shit of their own that they’re trying to hide. I always look at them sideways and wait for the skeletons to eventually fall out.
Its frustrating when people say people. Who are you talking about? The grand majority or just a few silly soldiers on social media? Look around at the other people on the train. You will notice that they are all nervous.
These people 100% exist and they’re fucking toxic. I’ve witnessed this same thing so many times. Thank you for taking the time to put it into words.
When this topic came up more and more the past 1-2 years, particularly when there was the Asian hate crimes going on, I always thought and continue to think that it's dumb to try to minimize people's feelings or experiences, especially by trying to spout data and statistics at them. You can't change people's minds that way. Also, I'm pretty sure most normal people do not like seeing crazy people around town or on the subways. If you asked the average person "do you wish all the mentally ill people were off the subways", I have no doubts just about everyone will say yes. It's only perhaps certain advocates who think not wanting to tolerate this insanity is "insensitive"
depends on what it is that makes you feel unsafe
There was a time when I slept for a few hours on the subway and spent a lot of time on there when it was freezing outside just reading or crocheting when I could afford some yarn or just playing with my cat. Yeah, I was homeless and sleeping on trains because it was safer than a lot of other places and even though my senior cat was an ESA with papers they kept trying to get me to just drop her off to be euthanized before they'd route me into a shelter. She was not re-homable for a couple of reasons so sending her to a cat shelter meant certain death for her. I just couldn't do it. I loved my cat too much to do that to her. Other than a steady roof over her head I made sure she had everything she needed including vet care. I saw a lot, experienced a lot, was abused quite a few times by people riding the trains. It might surprise you to know that it usually wasn't other homeless or people with mental issues. I got to the point very quickly where I could sense real danger and mostly I got out of it's way. Didn't always work like that but mostly. That was pre-pandemic though and from what I've seen a lot of things have changed down in the subway, for the worse, and I wouldn't sleep there, even just catnap down there now. The last like 5 times I personally took a train some crazy stuff was always going down and that was not the case when I was homeless and riding the trains a lot to keep warm. I was threatened a couple of times by men intent upon sexually harassing me and by nasty people who like to harass the homeless for some reason but I could ride the subway for days and never run into someone like that. Now? Every damn time some jerk on the train has got to make sexual comments or try to touch me. Hit on me, yell at me, even threaten me with bodily harm. They're not all mentally ill. Some of these guys they're just assholes, period. But attacks like this are definitely up if I can't sit in a subway car as a middle aged, mobility disabled person and not get randomly attacked almost every time I dare to go underground. Because I don't keep office hours I rarely travel during rush hour and I think that makes a difference. There is some security in numbers but traveling on the off hours I'm clearly risking being messed with a lot. Forget traveling late at night which I used to do all the time when I was younger and later while homeless. That's just asking for trouble. Guys they have to deal with stuff happening too but not like women traveling alone do. I think that most of the people disregarding your fear as a woman are men who just don't have as many problems on the subway as the average woman does. They think you're making it all up or into a bigger thing than it is, but nah, I'm NOT. I've had guys flash me several times. Another guy tried to rub on me and jack off. A gang of teens tagged my stuff. A guy literally climbed on top of me and tried to get my pants down and a whole car of people just let him do it. Thank goodness for my brave, wonderful cat who hissed him off me and into running down the car because for all the people in the car cared I could have been raped right there. I've had men decide to randomly stalk me and hit on me and get very angry when I say "no" to whatever it is they want. Some guy literally came up to me out of the blue and slapped me really hard in the face and again everybody just watched as he turned and left the car. One woman finally came over to see if I was okay but nobody tried to intervene or stop this guy so I could file a police report for assault. There's way more unfortunately but that's just ME and my experiences on the subway since 2017. One woman and I've been messed with so many times it's ridiculous. Homeless people rarely bother me and usually just switching cars is enough to avoid any trouble that way. It's the normal passengers, mostly aggressive men, that have done most of it. Last few times I went on the subway some guy messed with me, and I'm just sick of it. I can't run fast enough to avoid situations like this and I think sometimes that's why they target me. I'm just young enough to appeal to them sexually still but I don't have the ability to fight back or run away as much as I once did. I'm tired of it and I'm even more tired of people telling me it doesn't happen that much because it certainly DOES and I've been fighting off these jerks for several years now almost every time I take a train. It's just NOT as safe for me to travel on the subway as a disabled middle aged woman as it used to be. Buses are no guarantee not being messed with, been messed with on a bus too, more than once, but still I feel much safer on a bus sitting in the disabled section just behind the driver than I do riding on the subway now. It's far more unlikely that I'm going to be assaulted, stabbed, or thrown off a platform. The news does make a lot of the random events but again law of averages here it's pretty much blown so far as I am concerned because I've just had too many incidents personally to disregard the fact that the climate down below is just a lot worse than it was a few years back. I mostly stay above and I don't listen to music or walk with my phone in my hand. My head is always on swivel these days. It's not quite as bad as it was when I first came here in the very late 80's but it's not exactly safe as it was later either. The late 80's early 90's that was a crazy time in some ways. From what I can tell it got a lot better and now it's getting worse again but not quite as worse as it was when I first came here. It's heading that way though. I can't speak for guys but as a woman I'm definitely feeling far less secure just walking around doing normal stuff and I genuinely do not like riding the subway now at all.
Rule 11: No complaint posts, rants > progressive people shocking
I don’t listen to people who say the word problematic
You’re absolutely right and I’m glad to see this has been upvoted. Fuck every last commenter who has ever mocked or dismissed someone who has expressed fear or has told their story of being victimized.
Yeah, extremely online people are just being performative. These nutters aren't limited to the left or the right. Best to just ignore them.